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#216 - The Waking Up of the Activist with Grace Gulley
Episode 21626th October 2022 • Happy Mama Movement with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz • Amy Taylor-Kabbaz
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It is so very powerful within the work that I do when women wake up and say, enough is enough. And Grace Gulley is certainly healing and using her voice to stand strong in her advocacy for mothers, mental health and fighting against the systems that oppress mothers and caregivers. Grace experienced a somewhat unexpected pregnancy, being let go from her job, and a pandemic thrown in. After suffering in silence with an undiagnosed (and ignored) perinatal mood anxiety disorder for the first year of new motherhood, she came across matrescence and importantly the Mama Rising book to encourage alongside. Listen to I chat with Grace in a touching and powerful conversation which includes:

  • Postpartum rage, burnout, anxiety and emotional realities alongside the isolation of pandemic pregnancies and early motherhood.
  • The rig system. Patriarchy, rules around motherhood, value from productivity and money and how it is designed to benefit those upholding the system - rarely supportive enough for current day mothers.
  • Current challenges with the US system such as reproductive rights, maternity leave and childcare to name a few.
  • The Mama Rising program and how words create worlds. How it can be hard to articulate within motherhood and ask for support.

Grace brings a certain essence which is incredibly powerful throughout this interview and I know this is what we need in the world right now to change the system of motherhood and support women and birthing parents differently.

I invite you to follow Grace via her instagram @gracegulley, because this woman is making shifts for us all.

Additionally, you can find out more and receive your Matrescence map here https://www.amytaylorkabbaz.com/matrescence/

Transcripts

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome to the Happy Mama Movement Podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Aura nation

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

on which this podcast is recorded, as the traditional custodians of this land.

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And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

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And, as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

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would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom, their

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knowing and my own elders and teachers.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome back Mamas.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

One of the greatest privileges in my life is hearing stories of how my

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book or this podcast has connected with a woman I'll never meet, a

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woman on the other side of the world.

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And when she read or heard my words, something changed within her.

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I say this not from a place of ego because actually it's at times very hard for me to

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comprehend that that is what has happened.

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It's hard for me to think that something I wrote a few years ago is now still

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weaving its magic around the world and being passed from one woman to another.

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And when that woman reads it, she finds what she needs.

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And I say this today at the start of this interview, because the

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woman you're about to hear from shares exactly that story with me.

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And to now see where that has taken her and the change that she's

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now committed to creating in the United States is mind blowing.

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Because that's what happens when we experience matresence and we

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experience motherhood in a painful way over and over and over again.

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I am seeing women who have had challenges in early motherhood

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wake up and say, enough is enough.

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I want to be a part of the solution.

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I want to make sure that other mothers do not experience what I experienced.

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And that's exactly the story of Grace Gulley.

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Grace is an activist and an advocacy for change in motherhood in the

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United States and around the world.

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I loved our interview so much.

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I was wiping away tears on a number of occasions just to see the possibility

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of what happens when a woman heals and starts to use her voice.

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It's so exciting.

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Please jump on Instagram and let Grace know what you thought of her

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interview when we are finished, it is instagram.com/gracegully.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

The details are also in the show notes because this is how we create the change

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

we really need to see in this world.

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00:03:06

Grace, welcome to the podcast.

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00:03:09

It's so lovely to see you and be here with you for this conversation.

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00:03:13

Thank you for having me.

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00:03:15

Um, I'm a little bit nervous.

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00:03:16

I'm just gonna say that, but I'm, I'm so grateful that you invited me on here.

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00:03:20

It, it means a lot.

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00:03:21

And the reason why I invited you on

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00:03:23

was because in our conversation you're a Mama Rising facilitator and in part

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00:03:29

of the conversations we've had, I have loved listening to your story

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00:03:35

and really witnessing what learning about matresence has activated in you.

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00:03:40

Because I do think this is something that happens to a lot of us when we begin to

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00:03:46

realise the system that we live in, how motherhood is invisible and ignored.

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00:03:52

And I know that has been such a big part of what's happening

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00:03:56

with you at the moment.

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00:03:57

So let's go back to the beginning.

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00:03:59

Let's start at the very beginning, your motherhood experience.

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00:04:05

Yeah, absolutely.

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00:04:06

So motherhood for me, it wasn't something I had necessarily planned or even spent

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00:04:12

most of my adult life thinking about.

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00:04:15

Um, my husband and I just one day said, I think we could be parents.

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00:04:20

And then lo and behold, a month later I found out I was pregnant.

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00:04:24

And, on top of that, it was right at the start of the pandemic.

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00:04:28

So this was early:

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00:04:36

could be parents, I still felt very kind of taken aback like this all

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00:04:40

happened much faster than I expected.

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00:04:44

I don't feel prepared at all.

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00:04:46

And on top of it, any imagining of what I had pictured pregnancy being like

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00:04:52

being surrounded by friends and family.

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00:04:55

It was much, much different being in a lockdown in downtown LA and not being

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00:05:01

able to see family, or not even being able to announce the pregnancy to anybody.

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00:05:08

So I kind of went into, I guess, a little bit of a dark hole.

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00:05:12

Like I, I didn't feel as excited about the pregnancy as I even thought

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00:05:17

I should, which gave me a lot of emotional turmoil leading up to the

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00:05:21

birth and, and then of course the birth was, I mean, just other worldly.

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00:05:27

But then coming home, I still, again, felt so kind of disappointed

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00:05:34

in how isolated I had been.

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00:05:37

Um, disappointed in how under supported and, and really unprepared.

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00:05:43

I felt so, um, I kind of, I, I didn't realise it at the time, but I was

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00:05:50

experiencing a lot of postpartum anxiety and postpartum rage, and when I went to

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00:05:57

my six week appointment, as we all do.

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00:06:00

I tried to express some of this to the obgyn, but I was tiptoeing a

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00:06:04

little bit because I was like, I don't want her to think I'm a bad mum.

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00:06:08

Um,

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00:06:08

Mm-hmm.

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00:06:09

So it, it was dismissed though.

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00:06:11

It was just, you're, it's completely normal.

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00:06:14

Go home, call us if anything's wrong, and I was just taken aback by that.

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00:06:18

So I reverted into my bubble even further.

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00:06:24

And didn't want to talk to anybody about what I was feeling, but it

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00:06:28

was just, it was bubbling so much inside of me that it would come out

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00:06:33

in these spurts of anger and rage.

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00:06:37

And my husband was witness to all of that and nobody else.

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00:06:40

It scared him.

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00:06:41

It scared me, but I just thought, I'm going to say a word.

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00:06:44

And, um, it was like that the first probably eight months

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00:06:49

of my postpartum experience.

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00:06:51

And I actually, things started to change when I came across your book.

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00:06:57

I read Mama Rising and for the first time I felt like, so I'm not totally

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00:07:04

crazy, like this is hard for a reason.

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00:07:09

And, um, Yeah, that, that's, that's what I felt.

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00:07:13

It was a big sigh of relief, and I still had so many more questions and

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the feelings didn't completely go away.

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00:07:21

The hard part didn't go away.

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00:07:23

The disappointment didn't go away yet, but, I thought something's here and I'm

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00:07:28

gonna just kind of follow this thread.

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00:07:30

And I, I saw your certification program and I thought, I don't

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00:07:35

know what I'm doing with my life.

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00:07:37

Um, I don't know what I'm gonna do with this, but I just, I have this

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00:07:39

intuitive hit that I should just sign up because I need to know more.

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00:07:43

And it, the moment I heard about the rig system, it was just, Aha.

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00:07:52

That's it.

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00:07:53

And um, there's two feelings that kind of came over me almost immediately.

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00:07:59

And one was very personal and it was just a big, like, this is not my fault.

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00:08:04

Yeah.

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00:08:05

What I'm experiencing is

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00:08:06

experienced by so many other people.

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00:08:09

And I don't have to hold on to the guilt that I've done something

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00:08:14

wrong or I'm a bad mother.

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00:08:15

And that was a major turning point for me.

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00:08:20

Yeah.

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00:08:20

And then the other feeling was just like mad and um, and sad at the same time

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00:08:27

because you just, you start thinking about all the mothers that have gone

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00:08:31

through this before you, that are currently going through this and that

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are going to go through it in the future.

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00:08:37

And they may never come to know about the rig system and

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never realise they're in it.

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00:08:43

And just blame themselves and silence themselves and carry all

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00:08:48

of that through their experience.

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00:08:50

And it just, it's heartbreaking.

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00:08:52

So that's kind of where I landed and I thought there has to be something

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00:08:56

to do about this rig system.

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00:08:59

Like I, I can't just, I can't just go on knowing that this exists and

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00:09:03

not try to help others, hopefully navigate it a little bit more

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00:09:08

easily than I had to experience it, and so many other people have to.

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00:09:14

Do you, when you look at this

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00:09:15

experience, do you think it was exacerbated because of the pandemic?

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00:09:22

A hundred percent.

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00:09:23

Yeah.

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00:09:23

I mean, and it, I, you know, it, it sounds very arrogant to say a

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00:09:27

hundred percent because I've obviously never experienced being pregnant

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00:09:31

or being a mother any other way.

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00:09:33

But I just, I don't see how it cannot, and I'm, I'm comparing, Yeah.

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00:09:37

I'm like, I'm comparing my situation to both of my sister-in-laws were

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00:09:42

pregnant the summer before me.

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00:09:44

And both of their experiences were radically different.

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00:09:47

And they were with family and friends and have videos and photos to show

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00:09:51

the entire pregnancy, and they now get to show their son how loved

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00:09:56

he was before he was even born.

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00:09:57

And I carry that even now that I feel like knowing everything I know

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00:10:03

it, it, you can't help but feel like I've done some sort of disservice to

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00:10:08

my daughter that she will never get to see photos or videos like that.

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00:10:16

And yet it's totally out of your hands.

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00:10:18

You know, you couldn't have done anything else, but it's the

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00:10:21

something else that we carry around.

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00:10:23

The experience that you've had that you, I think we're going

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00:10:26

to have a whole generation.

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00:10:28

No, I know, we're gonna have a whole generation of women who became

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00:10:33

mothers during those two years.

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00:10:35

And the ongoing I want to say scars, that they will have because

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00:10:42

of the way that they were, um, isolated through those years.

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00:10:46

And when we talk about the rig system, which we'll talk more about in a

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00:10:49

moment, you know, to, to experience that in on top of a global pandemic

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00:10:54

that we've never been through before.

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00:10:56

I mean, it's mind blowing what the mothers like yourself have

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00:10:59

been through it's devastating.

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00:11:02

It absolutely is.

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00:11:04

And I mean, in so many ways, I was very fortunate and I know so many people

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00:11:10

had it a lot worse than I did, but no one should have to experience their

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00:11:15

pregnancy, a new motherhood, that alone.

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00:11:19

It just, it's heartbreaking.

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00:11:22

Yeah, it really is.

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00:11:24

It makes me emotional thinking of what that experience has

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00:11:27

been for so many for too many.

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00:11:30

Yeah.

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00:11:30

Yeah,

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00:11:31

Far too many.

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00:11:32

I'm like, check my mascara really quick.

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00:11:34

Yeah, I know . That's okay.

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00:11:36

We'll slip back.

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00:11:37

Slip back into the anger now.

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00:11:40

Yeah.

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00:11:41

Reset.

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00:11:43

Because, there is this beautiful

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00:11:47

description of something called post traumatic growth disorder.

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00:11:53

So in stead of PTSD, it's P T G D.

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00:11:57

And the descriptions of this is you go through something incredibly traumatic.

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00:12:02

Then you find you're searching for a reason, like an explanation,

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00:12:07

trying to understand it.

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00:12:08

You figure out how to get to the other side of it, and once you're on the

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other side of it, you, you are driven.

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00:12:16

It's like a force within you to make sure it doesn't happen to someone else.

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00:12:21

And so when I hear of your story, that's what comes to mind.

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00:12:26

And so many of the women in Mama Rising.

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00:12:29

In fact I'd probably say 99.9% of them are in that training because

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00:12:34

of exactly the same reason.

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00:12:35

They've seen it, they've experienced themselves, they

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know they've got an answer now.

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They're driven to make sure that others don't suffer like they did.

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00:12:43

That's kind of where you are now, isn't it?

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00:12:46

Yeah, and it, it's so, not amazing

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00:12:50

that they've had to experience that, but it's amazing to know that,

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00:12:54

I'm not alone in this experience.

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00:12:57

Other people have come out the other side and they've come out

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00:13:01

not feeling like I had to suffer.

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00:13:03

So other people should just figure it out on their own.

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00:13:05

But I had to suffer and I don't want other people to experience that.

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00:13:10

And it just, it gives me chills because I always it like you get a little boost of

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00:13:14

confidence that you know, people are good.

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00:13:17

Yeah.

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00:13:17

And also this is, and this is how we're going to change at Grace.

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00:13:21

Is that the women, unfortunately, as you said, they, they're

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00:13:25

experiencing it, but they will not allow another one to experience it.

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00:13:31

They will do what they can even when they're in the middle of it themselves.

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00:13:34

Even when you're in the middle of the rig system yourself, you're

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00:13:37

trying to bring awareness to it.

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00:13:39

So if you were to explain to a mama who's, maybe this is the first podcast episode

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00:13:44

she's landed on, on my website or on their podcast player today, when we talk about

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00:13:49

the rig system, what does it mean to you?

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00:13:52

Okay, I'm gonna try to

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00:13:53

do you justice here.

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00:13:54

Um, so the rig system, to me it is the, the patriarchal system that

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00:14:01

is writing the rules of what we should be doing in our mothering.

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00:14:06

It is it, it's a system that's not designed to succeed.

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00:14:12

It's a system that's designed to benefit the people that are upholding the system

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and keep the rest of us caretakers, mothers birthing people in their place.

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00:14:24

So it's, And you don't know about the system that's, you're not

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00:14:28

supposed to know about the system.

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00:14:30

You're just supposed to know that you are, you have these rules in order

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00:14:34

to be a good mother and you're being policed by other mothers, essentially,

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00:14:40

Um, to be a good mother and perform for all intents and purposes.

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00:14:45

So that's,

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00:14:47

no.

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00:14:47

what it means to me.

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00:14:49

Yeah, beautifully described.

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It's, and I would add to that, it's the system that tells us we need to

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be successful outside of the home.

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00:14:58

That our value comes from our productivity and our careers

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00:15:02

and how much money we can make.

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00:15:04

And yet we are also expected to be the great mothers at home on our own,

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without a village, without any support.

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And so it really is a system that just demands and demands and demands and

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doesn't support us to do any of that.

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And when we fail, which we will, because it's rigged against us.

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00:15:23

We blame ourselves.

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00:15:25

And so within the understanding of this, what does that meant for you?

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00:15:29

How do you now view yourself on a day to day?

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00:15:32

I know your beautiful daughter has just turned two, so how have, do

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you look back at those last two years now and forgive yourself?

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What do you see now?

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00:15:42

So now that I, I have

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00:15:44

a better understanding.

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00:15:45

It's a lot easier when it's a lot easier to look back on those,

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those experiences, um, look back on those feelings and not hold myself

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accountable for how hard it was and to not just think I, I am a bad mother.

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00:16:03

And even now tho those feeling.

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00:16:05

They don't always go away.

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It's not just, there's not just a vanishing point where you stop feeling,

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um where it all of a sudden gets easy and you never have a challenging time.

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And now when I experience more challenging times, it's easier to stop and look

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at it and say, this is not my fault.

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00:16:28

This is really hard.

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00:16:30

There is a system in place that is making this hard.

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00:16:34

So all I can do is my best in this situation, and I don't have to

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subscribe to those set of rules.

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I'm doing this how I need to do.

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That's it.

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00:16:45

That's the key at the end there of what you just said, isn't it?

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That I don't have to subscribe to these rules.

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I get to choose it.

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I get to redefine it myself.

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00:16:52

Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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00:16:54

Yeah.

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That's been huge.

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00:16:57

And what about, you're so, uh, brave in

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00:17:01

your vulnerability of sharing the, the level of rage that she felt postpartum.

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00:17:08

What has been your experience in healing and understanding that in

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00:17:12

particular, if you don't mind sharing.

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00:17:14

No, that actually, that really was the

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00:17:19

source of most of my guilt and there was a lot of points before I came

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00:17:25

to understand that this is a social system and understand the rig system.

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00:17:30

That I would feel like maybe I shouldn't have been a mother.

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Maybe I'm just not fit to be a mother because I'm having these episodes of

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rage and somebody that really loves their daughter and is good at this

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would never have those episodes.

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And I just internalise that and held it and it, it always was in

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the back of my mind, this feeling of like I'm not good at this.

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00:18:00

Like, how unlucky is this little girl that I'm her mother and I, it took so

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long to stop telling myself that story.

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00:18:11

Hm.

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00:18:13

And how did you do that?

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How did you stop telling yourself that story?

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A lot of work.

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00:18:20

Uh, so I, I think the understanding was really first and then deciding

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00:18:25

that I'm going to do this my way and I'm just going to enjoy her when I can

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and when I can't, that's also fine.

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And I'm not going to play by those rules anymore because they are

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making me miserable and they're robbing me of this experience.

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00:18:42

And I already feel, I feel so robbed at this experience because of the pandemic.

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00:18:47

I don't want to allow anything else to kind of tread on these, these,

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00:18:52

especially, I mean, all the years, but this is my one and only child.

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00:18:56

I'm not having another kid.

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I want to be able to really live this and be in it, and I I don't want anyone else

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00:19:04

to dictate what I should or shouldn't do.

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00:19:08

Oh wow.

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00:19:10

And there's that activism I can hear in you as well.

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00:19:14

Going to talk about that in just a moment, but if it's okay, I'd like

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00:19:17

to read something that we have in Mama Rising around maternal rage.

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00:19:20

Because I think it's a really important, um, for those that are listening who

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00:19:25

may not know much about the theory behind all of this, that we share

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00:19:29

so much in the Mama Rising training.

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00:19:32

This is a quote from the author of Angry Mother, Assertive Mother.

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00:19:37

Her name is Christelle Hayes.

-:

00:19:39

She writes, Mum rage is when motherhood makes us angry,

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00:19:43

and that anger blindsides us.

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00:19:46

We expect motherhood to be a blissful experience that only brings joy, but

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00:19:50

motherhood is much more complex than that.

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00:19:52

Motherhood, whilst it can be wonderful, can take its toll on women.

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00:19:57

We experience maternal rage when we are in a place of lack.

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00:20:01

I think this is so important for us all to remember, lack of self

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00:20:04

care, lack of time to ourselves, lack of sleep or lack of support.

-:

00:20:09

We experience maternal rage when we have unresolved traumas from our

-:

00:20:12

childhood, which motherhood can trigger.

-:

00:20:15

We experienced it because we are raging at the shift in our identities as women.

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00:20:21

We rage at our partners whose lives may seem more unaffected by parenthood.

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00:20:25

We rage at the lack of support, burnout, and constant criticism

-:

00:20:29

and judgment from society.

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00:20:32

We may also feel rage when overwhelmed with the mess, perpetual laundry

-:

00:20:36

and sensory overload the noise from plastic toys, cartoons, sibling fights,

-:

00:20:41

and constant demands for snacks.

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00:20:44

Mum rage is when we become overwhelmed with anger and struggle to access

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00:20:49

the calm and patient side we usually experience as a parent.

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00:20:56

When you hear that Grace, what does that mean to you?

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00:21:01

I would just check, check, check.

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00:21:03

I mean every, every one of those things you that.

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00:21:07

You say this a lot throughout the Mama Rising training words create worlds.

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00:21:12

And before I had context and the theory.

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00:21:18

I didn't understand and couldn't articulate what was so hard for me.

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00:21:23

I couldn't articulate how to ask for support.

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00:21:27

I also felt like me as the mother, I have to take all of this on because

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00:21:33

what does it say about me if I don't?

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00:21:36

And you don't talk about that.

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00:21:38

You just do it and there's this little bit of resentment and then that comes

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00:21:42

out in burst of rage, and then they turn into a toddler and then the snacks start.

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00:21:48

And that's a whole other level.

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00:21:50

Exactly.

-:

00:21:52

Yeah.

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00:21:54

It is, it is a, um, a recognition

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00:21:58

of the system within which we are working and the symptoms of rage

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00:22:02

and burnout is because of that.

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00:22:05

So, what do you want to do with this?

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00:22:10

What have you begun to feel inside of you?

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00:22:14

Crack open and wake up now that you know this and have seen how

-:

00:22:18

much it heals and helps you?

-:

00:22:22

Yeah, so this has been, this has kind

-:

00:22:24

of been the question, and interestingly, even to back up a little bit, before

-:

00:22:31

I started Mama Rising, before I got pregnant, I was very Type A and I

-:

00:22:38

wrapped up as, as many, many people do my entire identity in my work.

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00:22:43

So pandemic happened.

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00:22:45

I get laid off.

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00:22:46

I find out I'm pregnant.

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00:22:47

I have a very challenging postpartum period.

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00:22:49

I'm not working.

-:

00:22:51

And that inner split of, I don't understand why I'm not the person

-:

00:22:57

I used to be, but what am I now?

-:

00:23:00

That was the question that kept running through my head.

-:

00:23:03

So when I started Mama Rising, that question kept running through my head

-:

00:23:09

of what am I gonna make of all of this?

-:

00:23:11

And it was so hard to kind of put that back and go, Okay, I just need

-:

00:23:17

to really feel into this and I need to experience all of everything I'm

-:

00:23:22

learning and take a break from trying to answer that question immediately.

-:

00:23:28

So it's been a long process and I, I've had to get quiet a

-:

00:23:32

lot and not rush to an answer.

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00:23:34

But, this is a very long-winded answer, but I'm finally getting to the place

-:

00:23:39

where I'm like, I see where my place is in revolutionising motherhood,

-:

00:23:46

for lack of a better word, and, and making it better for other people.

-:

00:23:50

And I, I really see two areas.

-:

00:23:53

So all of this work has inspired me to go back to school and pursue my

-:

00:23:57

master's in mental health counseling.

-:

00:24:00

Because I'd like to host group therapy, which I'm so, so excited about, and I

-:

00:24:05

feel like that's such an incredible way to teach them, give them the context

-:

00:24:09

at the same time, offering support, because postpartum is, it's, it's hard.

-:

00:24:16

Like even when you have the context, postpartum is hard

-:

00:24:20

and there are so many, so much.

-:

00:24:24

It's just so much to navigate and it really takes somebody that

-:

00:24:27

has kind of gone through it and understands what that's like.

-:

00:24:31

So that's, that's one avenue I want to go down.

-:

00:24:33

And then the other is advocacy.

-:

00:24:36

So, um, working, doing social justice work and bringing this to the masses, bringing

-:

00:24:43

this context and history and theory to the masses, putting light on this rig

-:

00:24:49

system, on this patriarchal institution of motherhood and fighting for policy change.

-:

00:24:55

Advocating for valuing of, of care work, which is so incredibly like,

-:

00:25:02

it's, it's amazing how undervalued care work is, but advocating for that value

-:

00:25:07

and advocating for maternal health, um, and doing that inter-sectionally.

-:

00:25:14

Because all of these things are related.

-:

00:25:16

The patriarchal system upholds.

-:

00:25:18

I mean, it's the same system that colonialism, white

-:

00:25:21

supremacy all come from.

-:

00:25:23

So you have to kind of look at the overlaps in these areas.

-:

00:25:26

And if you look at black maternal health and the context and history of how these

-:

00:25:34

women birthing people were treated.

-:

00:25:35

It's just, it's awful and you have to acknowledge all of it.

-:

00:25:39

And work in all areas and recognise that mothers on the margins, not only have

-:

00:25:47

they been experiencing this rig system the hardest, they have also been the ones

-:

00:25:52

that are the most, have the most longevity in fighting against this rig system.

-:

00:25:58

So, there not only are models for how to fight it, but they're

-:

00:26:02

also who we should be fighting for and, and shedding light on.

-:

00:26:06

So that's the other area that I'm, I'm in and I'm working with, um,

-:

00:26:11

Chamber of Mothers here in the United States to, to fight on that front.

-:

00:26:18

Ah, it gives me goosebumps hearing

-:

00:26:20

how this unfolds for so many of us that it wakes something up in us.

-:

00:26:26

Can you tell us a little bit about the Chamber of Mothers because, for those in

-:

00:26:30

Australia, they may not have heard of it.

-:

00:26:32

Where it came from?

-:

00:26:33

I think it's incredibly inspiring what you're all trying to do.

-:

00:26:38

Yeah, so it actually started, it's been

-:

00:26:41

almost one year, November of last year.

-:

00:26:43

The Build Back Better Plan, which was supposed to include paid leave, which

-:

00:26:49

the United States, it makes me, we do not have paid leave of any kind.

-:

00:26:53

We're one of the few Western countries that doesn't have it,

-:

00:26:57

which is absolutely mind blowing.

-:

00:26:59

But that got cut out of the plan.

-:

00:27:02

And, that same night, the original founders all got together and said,

-:

00:27:06

we need to do something about this.

-:

00:27:08

And I caught wind of it on Instagram and I, I stalked them a little bit and I

-:

00:27:14

started sending message to the founders.

-:

00:27:16

I mean, I don't, until eventually one of thems like, Okay, yeah, we need help.

-:

00:27:20

So, um, I, it's been, I think it was in April or maybe March of this year that I,

-:

00:27:27

I came on and started helping them and I'm now doing, I'm head of marketing for them

-:

00:27:32

at this point and, and working on their social media to amplify their messages.

-:

00:27:38

And we're pushing really hard for paid leave because we

-:

00:27:41

obviously still don't have it.

-:

00:27:43

We're also talking a lot right now about reproductive rights,

-:

00:27:48

reproductive justice because of Roe v.

-:

00:27:50

Wade being overturned.

-:

00:27:52

We're talking a lot about childcare because the, it's

-:

00:27:54

just the, the stories you hear.

-:

00:27:59

And I, I don't know how it is all over the world, but the stories here about the

-:

00:28:02

cost of childcare and it's prohibitive, I'm, I'm getting messages from women

-:

00:28:08

that want to have a family, but they have decided that they can't afford it because

-:

00:28:13

they can't afford childcare, and that has stopped them from having a family.

-:

00:28:18

And it, it's, it's heartbreaking.

-:

00:28:20

So we're working on that as well.

-:

00:28:25

Does it feel heavy at times?

-:

00:28:29

Yes, yes, it does.

-:

00:28:31

And what do you do in those times?

-:

00:28:37

So I try to step back.

-:

00:28:38

I try to kind of recenter myself with my daughter.

-:

00:28:42

I find play.

-:

00:28:43

I just remove myself for a moment, and then I remember what I experienced and

-:

00:28:50

with all of the privilege that I have.

-:

00:28:55

Obviously the privilege of being white financial privilege.

-:

00:28:59

I'm able bodied and healthy.

-:

00:29:02

It still was hard and it, it broke me in so many ways and I'm, I'm still two years

-:

00:29:10

later going through this healing journey and I, I have a long way to go at this

-:

00:29:15

point, and I, I remember that and remember that wasn't fair that I had to feel that.

-:

00:29:22

And there's other people out there that should know about this and

-:

00:29:27

should have someone fighting them that has the capability to do it.

-:

00:29:30

And I, I do.

-:

00:29:31

So then I, I go, Okay, where's my coffee?

-:

00:29:35

Back to work.

-:

00:29:36

That's it.

-:

00:29:38

One of the mantras that I love to share in Mama Rising at

-:

00:29:41

times is now we know we must.

-:

00:29:43

Like, now we know we, you can't not do anything.

-:

00:29:48

When you know that there is a way to help or support or listen or heal, we have to.

-:

00:29:55

Grace, I think it's so incredibly inspiring what you are doing.

-:

00:30:00

How I think, when I hear women like you and how your experience has activated

-:

00:30:10

this in you, I get very hopeful that the change we need is coming.

-:

00:30:17

It makes me angry that it's the women who are still trying to heal themselves are

-:

00:30:23

the ones out there doing all the work.

-:

00:30:24

But I'm thinking this is a way it's gonna start, and hopefully it'll grow from here.

-:

00:30:28

But, um, it, you are a divine example of how we can take these enormous

-:

00:30:35

challenges and turn them into, the change that we want to see in this world.

-:

00:30:40

I've been emotional a number of times through this interview because I

-:

00:30:43

really find it so inspiring how this has, um, transformed you, but now the

-:

00:30:48

possibilities of where it could go.

-:

00:30:52

Yeah, it's, it's been a wild journey and

-:

00:30:57

I, I really do have you to think for that.

-:

00:30:59

Like your book is what shook me up and started me down this path, and

-:

00:31:04

then the certification woke me up to the rig system and, and made me mad.

-:

00:31:08

So thank you for making me mad because now I'm, I'm down this path and I'm going.

-:

00:31:13

That's it.

-:

00:31:14

Well, you're welcome for making you mad.

-:

00:31:18

We need angry women out there saying We have to, we have to do better than this.

-:

00:31:24

And I, and I really acknowledge how heavy that must feel in the United States at

-:

00:31:28

the moment with, with where you all are.

-:

00:31:30

So, um, you know, I think it's really important that we support each other.

-:

00:31:34

We remind each other that you're not doing it alone, That this is a

-:

00:31:39

change that we're going to have to do.

-:

00:31:40

So thank you for all that you do.

-:

00:31:43

All of it.

-:

00:31:44

Thank you so much.

-:

00:31:45

Yes, thank you.

-:

00:31:47

I really appreciate it.

-:

00:31:49

To know that there are women out there like Grace and so many others

-:

00:31:56

standing up and saying, we will not tolerate this system anymore.

-:

00:32:00

Just gives me goosebumps and so much hope.

-:

00:32:03

This is what we need in the world right now to change the rigged system of

-:

00:32:07

motherhood to support women and mothers and birthing parents differently.

-:

00:32:13

I am so incredibly grateful that Mama Rising, my work, the work of Dr.

-:

00:32:20

Aurélie Athan, so many others, is beginning to

-:

00:32:24

create effects just like this.

-:

00:32:26

Like what we are seeing with Grace and the Chamber of Mothers and

-:

00:32:29

so many other organisations that are growing up around the world.

-:

00:32:35

Please reach out to Grace.

-:

00:32:37

Let her know how you found today's interview.

-:

00:32:41

And also, Grace is gathering stories about people's personal

-:

00:32:45

experience of motherhood, especially mothers on the margins.

-:

00:32:50

She's wanting to pull together these stories and see if we can

-:

00:32:53

understand what is happening better.

-:

00:32:55

So if you have a story you would like to share with her.

-:

00:32:58

Especially if you are a mother on the margin, please reach

-:

00:33:03

out to her on Instagram.

-:

00:33:04

She is Grace Gulley, g u double l e y, and her details are also in the show notes.

-:

00:33:12

Let me know how you found this interview today as well, and please share it far

-:

00:33:16

and wide so we can change this system.

-:

00:33:20

Until next week, thank you for listening.

-:

00:33:23

Thank you for being a part of this revolution.

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