Shownotes
This is a highly requested replay of last falls discussion with William White.
Are you thinking about exterior tile? Maybe that front porch, the back patio or even the side of your house? We dive into what should be considered when doing exterior tile and the process you should follow from picking out that tile to installation.
William White has a long history of tile. After installing for many years he worked in the industry with manufacturers and then became the lead instructor for Northwest College of Construction for nearly a decade. He then went on for nearly the next decade working with Ardex helping contractors, installers, and designers with the latest in installation best practices and technology. For more information about Aredex head to: https://www.ardexamericas.com/
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Information given on the Around the House Show should not be considered construction or design advice for your specific project, nor is it intended to replace consulting at your home or jobsite by a building professional. The views and opinions expressed by those interviewed on the podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the Around the House Show.
Mentioned in this episode:
Baldwin Hardware
A new kind of decking and siding from Millboard
For more information about the latest in decking and cladding head to https://www.millboard.com/
Transcripts
[00:00:27] Eric Goranson: We wanted to replay this one cuz we've had so many people out. Asking about it, and this is a great conversation with William White on how to tile
[:[00:01:00] William White: Renovating your home. There is a lot to know, but we've got you covered. This is our round the house.
[:[00:01:19] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to Around the House.
[:[00:01:22] Eric Goranson: you, Eric. Good times, brother. Having you back on. And this is been a minute, this could be a good time. I wanted to talk about something that we haven't actually ever tackled on around the house and being that I've been on the show for coming up on, geez, what, eight, nine years now.
[:[00:01:58] William White: correctly.
[:[00:02:21] William White: I'm stuck at home. I'm finally gonna start tackling some of those projects that I've put off forever. And one of those outcomes was investing into that outdoor space, that outdoor entertaining. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. There's the barbecue. Yeah. You might mount a TV outside. Yeah. You might, you know, do this, do that.
[:[00:02:55] Eric Goranson: I just saw today on a social media site, I'm in a bunch of [00:03:00] different home improvement groups.
[:[00:03:23] William White: only.
[:[00:03:26] Eric Goranson: the scenes of the backer board. Yep. Seam of the backer board. That's it. And I can only see the mast stick cuz it's half installed. You can tell he's in the middle of it. I can't see the MasTec above the one tile, so you know that it's, is he dabbing the back? What's he And I'm like, okay, this is some professional and I'm gonna use big air quotes for professional.
[:[00:04:02] William White: right? Yeah, yeah. Showers can be tricky and some of those same.
[:[00:04:33] William White: Yeah. As we transition to outside, you know, there's, there's kind of two different applications, right? You've got horizontal and vertical. Mm-hmm. So depending on if you're maybe tile in. Maybe around the barbecue or something like that. Sure. That's one place that, you know, it's a little easier, but as soon as you start going horizontal and now you're having to deal with rain, sun expansion, [00:05:00] contraction, waterproofing, I mean, all these things come into play.
[:[00:05:08] Eric Goranson: And even more so if you're on a floor that has any kind of flex on it as well. Movement. Yeah, movement de any kind of movement deflection. And you know, people don't many times design that outside deck to not move. Like the surface in inside your home is, for instance, so.
[:[00:06:01] William White: And just the amount of weight that that adds to a structure. So that's technically the only approved method. Now, interesting, RX does have some options that, that get away from that mud bed and mm-hmm. And can do some things. Um, but that's where you're getting a little more advanced. Um, I think the place where most people start is maybe like a front porch or an inch away or something like that.
[:[00:06:40] Eric Goranson: If you're a tile, yes. I mean, otherwise it's just a wood, you know, it's just a wood porch or something like that.
[:[00:06:46] William White: agree. You know, and a lot of times that entryway is fully covered or semi covered, so you're not talking about. Necessarily a lot of direct exposure. Mm-hmm. And in that situation, as long as you get [00:07:00] really good coverage, and when I talk about coverage, what I'm saying is, is the amount of mortar, when you've combed it out on the substrate and set a tile down, you have to pick that tile back up and look at the bottom side of it.
[:[00:07:33] Eric Goranson: leaning on that way too heavy,
[:[00:07:43] William White: And that's where stepping up and buying a really premium product is going to help out a lot. And also understanding. Asking some questions, I'm going to be using this application exterior. What's, what's the best product? [00:08:00] And you know, depending on where you live, that may play a factor too. Yeah. Are we talking about sunny Southern California or are we talking about, as you mentioned, Colorado, where?
[:[00:08:12] Eric Goranson: negative whatever in the winter. You know, you've got these massive, she's seen 50 degree swings in Colorado in an afternoon. So, yeah. I mean, and that's crazy. But that's, that's what happens. And what's ironic is, is people go, traditionally, they pick out the tile cuz they go, oh, that's pretty, how do I install it?
[:[00:08:53] William White: True and understanding slip coefficient.
[:[00:09:16] William White: That kind of ruins the day for everybody.
[:[00:09:32] William White: That's true. It's true, but you know. Think about those things like, like, and is a tile exterior rated? Is it freeze thaw rated? You know, and you, you mentioned Carrera.
[:[00:09:53] Eric Goranson: Don't go.
[:[00:10:16] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to The Round the House Show. If you wanna get ahold of me, it's really easy. Head over to around the house online.com and you can catch me over there just to contact us, Paige. And that lands in my inbox and I'm there to help. Now let's get back to our conversation with William White. We're talking everything about doing tile outdoors for your outdoor kitchen patio or front
[:[00:10:39] William White: You, you mentioned Carrera. You know me personally, I would. I would really. Question somebody putting natural stone outside. Amen. Um, especially with the porcelain tile that we have nowadays, that, I mean, when I can be fooled by some of the products that are manufactured in porcelain and I have to walk up and touch them to see, [00:11:00] is that really a stone or is not?
[:[00:11:19] Eric Goranson: nasty. It's just so hard to take care of. Get a little
[:[00:11:27] William White: Yep. I mean, it's also so porous that water absorbs right straight through. It gets underneath of it soaks the mortar, and then what happens when water expands or when it freezes, it expands and. You start popping tiles. I mean, it's just,
[:[00:11:52] Eric Goranson: By the time you realize that you should have sealed it, you're again just you're, yeah, you're putting another one in there and let's go to Lifetime more sealed. No, [00:12:00] it doesn't, you just wore the top of that soft thing off. You know, it's, there's only so far that's gonna go.
[:[00:12:12] William White: You know, that that plays a huge part in it, you know, and sometimes that's where stepping up to a dedicated tile distributor is gonna be able to provide you with a little better. Guidance than say, you know, like, like the box store. Yeah. You know, cause they may not be experienced enough to be able to answer those questions specific to an exterior application.
[:[00:12:52] Eric Goranson: Well, and on top of it, the box store doesn't have too many products in that building that are even rated for what you want to [00:13:00] do.
[:[00:13:10] Eric Goranson: it's, it's a fine, it's a big ask
[:[00:13:14] William White: You're correct. No. They, they don't have the education and they also don't have the products. Yeah,
[:[00:13:31] Eric Goranson: Okay? So this is safe and I've got this, you know, kind of. Maybe it's an old 50 year old concrete or a hundred year old concrete front step that you want to put tile over. I know so many people get out there with the broom, they brush it off, they mix up the mortar, and off they go. There's a little more to that sometimes on the prep work than what you might think.
[:[00:14:19] William White: It'll ness. Yeah. Chalkiness, it'll, it'll. Show me if there's any places I need to make some repairs, possibly beforehand. Cause there are products that can go in and patch that. Sure. And then you gotta let it dry. So maybe, maybe it's a couple days before, who knows? Maybe it's the weekend before and you, you know, do all your pressure wash and get things nice and clean.
[:[00:14:48] Eric Goranson: There you go. Now I know I've dealt with repairing foundations and when I would put, you know, uh, like a high strength mortar mix in there to patch that, we'd always [00:15:00] wet that down beforehand so it wouldn't pull the moisture out.
[:[00:15:16] William White: surprised that that, you know, giving that surface just a damp sponge.
[:[00:15:44] William White: And it'll make it dry and difficult to work with. So if you can, you know, help that out and, you know, give the, give the concrete a drink first. Splash some water on there. Just make sure you don't have puddling. That's a great way to start.
[:[00:16:03] Eric Goranson: You know, you've got things taken a look at you, of course, gotta check out to make sure that that. Coverage porch slope in the right way. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just to make sure that it's not tipping back towards the house. So you've got, you know, all of a sudden you're creating a swimming pool up there versus a, a front porch.
[:[00:16:22] William White: guess you're right because you can't really, I. Assume right? We, we all know what our father's taught us about. Assume
[:[00:16:34] William White: So throwing a level on there and just making sure that maybe things haven't settled, you know?
[:[00:16:57] William White: And that's how we keep, you know, things [00:17:00] dry and keep rot away. Just shed that water off, you
[:[00:17:16] Eric Goranson: So did they and backfilled, you know, and backfilled and so out where the end of the steps are, that's Virgin Earth that doesn't have a lot of place to compact, but the stuff up against the foundation, maybe they didn't get in there and compact that correctly. So that's why that tends to lean back towards the house and now's the time to fix it if you
[:[00:17:35] William White: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then
[:[00:17:45] William White: Yeah. Yeah. Then it is time to start laying tile.
[:[00:17:56] Eric Goranson: Ripping that bag open.
[:[00:18:17] William White: So that's the general rule of layout is, is centered and balanced. And if there are cuts that they're over half of a tile now if you have like some funny L shape or something like that and you have a couple little slivers here or there, that's okay because you're not gonna hit everything all the time.
[:[00:18:41] Eric Goranson: That's great advice around the house. We'll be right back after these very important messages. Don't go anywhere.
[:[00:18:59] Eric Goranson: [00:19:00] Ron Keel, the metal
[:[00:19:13] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to The Round the House Show. If you wanna find out more information about us, head over to around the house online.com. Now let's get back to our conversation about exterior tile with William White Hill, itty bitty on the edge and, and if you've got a step baby that's got a couple different stairs, you don't want that little itty bitty on the edge cuz you're gonna roll that thing right off of there.
[:[00:19:35] William White: Yep. Yep. And then once you've got your layout established, you know, I personally like to use a straight edge or I'll even put my level down and then put a couple boxes of tile on that. And I use that as a straight edge.
[:[00:20:03] Eric Goranson: of the front door. There's nothing worse and coming up and going, wow, that's hooking to the left by three eighths of an inch.
[:[00:20:15] William White: to the front door. And that's why I like to use a straight edge as opposed to just maybe snapping a chalk line, um, and trying to stack off of a, of a chalk line. I like to use that straight edge.
[:[00:20:33] Eric Goranson: Yeah, then you're good. Okay. So now that we've got layout figured out, we're gonna start laying some tiles down.
[:[00:20:49] William White: exterior application? So there are some specifics when it comes to exterior rated mortars. Um, and if you look on the bags of mortar, look for something that says it's an [00:21:00] antsy.
[:[00:21:26] William White: But think about it. This is your investment. You're wanting to do tile outside, you have to pay the price.
[:[00:21:49] Eric Goranson: So
[:[00:22:09] William White: You've got a, a concrete block poured in place. It's two feet thick or whatever it is by, you know, 10 feet long. That's a solid, monolithic mass of concrete. It is. It is dimensionally stable. It doesn't move very much. The tile, oh, I picked some. Pretty black porcelain to put out there, or the wife did. Now that tile covering is going to expand and contract at a different rate than the, than the substrate below it.
[:[00:23:03] William White: So there are, there are standards out there that tell us how often those have to be. Typically it's not to exceed like eight to 10 feet, um, in either direction for exterior tile. And that's, so what I like to do personally is I like to take care of all of my expansion joints before I grout. And that's because once I get going, grouting.
[:[00:23:46] William White: Yep,
[:[00:24:00] William White: in grout mode cause I want get done.
[:[00:24:11] Eric Goranson: Yeah. So, so that, that ends up having a, you know, you get it in there, cleaned up, you got a really nice pro product there. The grout though, what are you gonna use for a grout, because I know I don't want people going in and buying that $12 box from the. From the home center and expecting it to perform for them.
[:[00:24:47] William White: And that goes for the grout as well. Um, so. Typically I'm looking for, again, back to use these NC standards, A one 18.7. Yep. That means it's been industry tested to be a high [00:25:00] performance cement-based grout. Um, and what that does is, again, they've tested it against porosity, freeze thaw stability. So, and, and as an added bonus out of that, a lot of times you can actually pick up some stain resistance as well, which is never a bad thing to have in your GR as well.
[:[00:25:21] William White: everything. Yeah, absolutely. So look for,
[:[00:25:34] William White: to that.
[:[00:26:07] William White: This isn't gonna be your first, first time taking a stab at epoxy grout on your front porch, so, exactly. You know, I really do think that these high performance grouts are honestly over time gonna hold up much, much better than epoxy grouts in that type application.
[:[00:26:30] Eric Goranson: With UV is something, if I've got a lighter grout, is that gonna yellow with time? You just don't know sometimes with, with some of those products that anytime you use something that's got any kind of composite in it out there.
[:[00:26:48] William White: Now, does that typically break down the epoxy? No, it's typically just an aesthetic thing. Um, but again, why go through all the effort and then, you know, two years [00:27:00] down the road have it turned yellow on you? I wouldn't be very happy, and that's why I typically tend to steer away from those kind of products.
[:[00:27:09] Eric Goranson: sense. Yeah. All right, so let's go to another part of the house. Let's say we're gonna do that big back patio that's going to the pool. Okay? Okay. And I have seen some new systems out there. Maybe you're using the larger format tiles, maybe you're using even the bigger porcelain format tiles. I have seen some cool pedestal systems and stuff out there that seem really cool, but.
[:[00:27:44] William White: so, you know what I mean? Yeah. They look sexy. Cool. Are they really? Um, yeah. So with pedestals, so these are plastic pedestals that typically are adjustable in height in some way or fashion, and they, mm-hmm.
[:[00:28:24] William White: And so if you elevate. Up off that roof deck, you can still have all those electrical and refrigerant lines running across there, and your tile is suspended above it. Also, a lot of times on rooftop decks, they're pitched in such a manner that you, you don't wanna follow that pitch in the substrate. You wanna have a flat deck,
[:[00:28:45] Eric Goranson: You'll be right back.[00:29:00]
[:[00:29:03] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to the Round the House Show. Now let's get back to our conversation with William White from RX as we finish up talking. How about exterior
[:[00:29:19] Eric Goranson: So don't use river rock in your concrete. No,
[:[00:29:26] Eric Goranson: that's fascinating, man. And you know, it's one of those things that I think that tile outside is beautiful. You know, and maybe it's not where you put the Saltillo tile out there, but. At least in our climate, depending where of course, course climate than you
[:[00:29:40] William White: Yeah. If you're, if you're in Arizona, there's nothing wrong with doing TLO tile outside.
[:[00:29:47] William White: folks. Yep. Ain't gonna work. Yeah. If you're, if you're above the frost line, that's a no-go. So cool. And,
[:[00:29:59] Eric Goranson: I'd love [00:30:00] what we're starting to see on wall surfaces. Now, exterior as far as using large format pieces of tile and some of the decorative stuff outside, it's really coming back
[:[00:30:24] William White: The cool thing about these, oh yeah, these giant porcelain tiles is the way that they're making them, that you can, they're literally graffiti proof. You can spray paint on 'em and. It'll pressure washer hang, gonna air pressure wash right off. And it's like, it's like, because I know everyone deals with graffiti, especially in downtown type situations, and having some of these products that, that are just aesthetically beautiful because like I said, they're getting porcelains to the point now where I have to walk up and touch it.
[:[00:30:58] Eric Goranson: steel, it could be [00:31:00] wood, it could be
[:[00:31:16] William White: And if these tiles are 10 feet long, you're talking 60 feet away, you're not gonna see that repeat in a pattern. Yeah. I mean, just where they're going with with some of this. Tile cladding is, is just amazing to see. It is,
[:[00:31:36] Eric Goranson: Mm-hmm. And so they were doing the, I think they were like five by nine Okay. Panels on the floor. Okay. Okay. Which I was watching him set it and I was going, oh man. Oh man. Cuz I was walking up the elevators, getting in and looking at that and going, uh oh. I walked by it the next day when they'd opened that up.
[:[00:32:01] William White: Oh, yeah. See, and now this is where we're definitely out of and they had to bust those things up. Yeah. Yep. This is where we've definitely left the D I Y zone. When you're talking about tiles that are five foot by 10 foot, this is, this is where even professionals, yeah.
[:[00:32:39] Eric Goranson: material larger than
[:[00:32:42] William White: Yeah, we've definitely left the DIY zone, but. Some of the advantages are just so amazing and contractors are now starting to buy in. I mean, like I said, I was at a five day training last week where there were contractors coming from all around the country to attend this training, to learn how to work [00:33:00] with and fabricate and move and install these really ginormous tiles.
[:[00:33:10] William White: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[:[00:33:23] William White: ugly.
[:[00:33:44] Eric Goranson: huh?
[:[00:33:45] William White: house. Right. Kinda like your house. I mean, it, it suddenly, it takes maintenance down to nothing. Nothing. And that's where using Gage porcelain on the walls, epoxy grout on your floor with a mosaic. And [00:34:00] now you've got something that I wouldn't say maintenance. Just describe my shower. I wouldn't say maintenance free, but I would say that's the lowest maintenance you can ever get right there.
[:[00:34:11] Eric Goranson: I tell you what, and you're right cuz you know I've got the, the slab porcelain more of a countertop material, but it's the same thing. Yep, yep. And I've got that, the side panels, my ceiling pieces in there too. I tell you what, that was a, that was a dance that you were there for. William.
[:[00:34:39] Eric Goranson: Yeah. That was not fun. Yeah. That was pushing my, my, and I had two, I had two professionals there that were, that were helping and that was their project and I was helping them to be honest. And that was all, I mean. When you're trying to get the back panel in and I have to take the light bulbs out of the light bar just to be able to [00:35:00] swing it around and get it in.
[:[00:35:03] William White: Yeah. So, I mean, big tiles, they, they can prevent or present some, some really interesting challenges. Uh, but I think some of the benefits that they provide are, are going to be really fun to see what guys do with 'em in the future.
[:[00:35:21] Eric Goranson: And we actually did a walk in the door, up the stairs, around the corner, around the other corner to see if we could actually get that in the room. A practice
[:[00:35:37] Eric Goranson: Just a template. Yeah, because I wasn't sure if we were gonna get that in the bathroom or not. We, it was
[:[00:35:44] William White: I mean door off. Oh
[:[00:35:51] William White: Yeah. Yeah. So there are some interesting challenges to it, but, uh, it, it'll be fun to see where, where tile
[:[00:36:03] Eric Goranson: She was challenging you to get down and, uh, get down to Colorado Springs and teach her, uh, how to do a shower in her
[:[00:36:26] William White: And then, Everything ensued from there. But, uh, yeah. So that's, you mean that
[:[00:36:35] William White: That guy. That guy. Yeah. Um, you know, that, that whole project really, it hit home with me because I thought about my mom and my sister, and if, if somebody did that to them, like I, I would be, I.
[:[00:37:18] William White: In fact, my buddy Jason McDaniels, is actually in Memphis, Tennessee doing another bathroom rescue where some contractors did some shady work, some shoddy work. Oh, and he's actually fixing another bathroom right now as we speak. Man, here
[:[00:37:47] Eric Goranson: That gives such a bad name to all the skilled professionals out there doing it.
[:[00:38:09] William White: And I always viewed, when I was a tile contractor, I viewed my customers. As friends when I left that project mm-hmm. I was friends with nearly every single one of 'em, and that's just the kind of relationship that I like to develop with my customers. So, you know, ask for references. I think that's the best thing that you can do.
[:[00:38:32] William White: I also check with a contractor's board if, if you have one in your jurisdiction, check with a contractor's board, see what their standing is like with the construction bureau. You know, there's lots of things that you can do. Absolutely. And
[:[00:38:54] Eric Goranson: There we go. There you go. Absolutely. All right. William Wyatt, my friend, [00:39:00] Artex Americas. Thanks for coming on today, man, and giving me a load of information for all of our listeners out there that have been tuning in today. Thanks for coming on again, brother. Always a good time with you, my friend. All right, well thanks for coming on brother, and uh, all the information for him.
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