Listen to the song

1. YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWnyCxva6bA
2. Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/6BdiFsPMPkSEEO4fFXFVWX
3. Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/workin-day-and-night/186166410
4. Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B00138KJY0?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_n0DKAlMsv9XvZL5bSVgX5cY0z&trackAsin=B00137QO0O

Other links

1. Hocket in horns breakdown
2. Jackson family demo of Workin’ Day and Night
3. Horns in the NY subway station (Lucky Chops)

Key takeaways

1. In this episode, Trist and Elaine explore how Michael Jackson incorporates the ancient musical technique of hocket, originating from 13th-14th century choral music, into his song "Workin' Day and Night," creating a seamless melody from alternating instrumental parts
2. The discussion highlights the rich, human elements of the "Off the Wall" album, including live brass sections, hand drums, and vocal percussive sounds, contrasting it with later albums that relied more heavily on synthesizers and programmed sounds
3. Elaine and Trist discuss how musicians with corporate jobs can play a vital role in the music industry by using their income to fund projects, pay fellow musicians, and sustain their passion for music while maintaining financial stability

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist!

Elaine: What do we have this week?

Trist: Elaine, this week we have (finally) Michael Jackson.

Elaine: Ooooh.

Trist: That's

Elaine: Oh,

Trist: right,

Elaine: yeah.

Trist: Michael Jackson.

Trist: You know, um, inevitable that we

Trist: would cover a Michael Jackson

Trist: song.

Elaine: Of course.

Trist: Um, and there may be other

Trist: Michael Jackson songs that

Trist: employ this technique, but this

Trist: song employs a technique that's

Trist: from the 13th, 14th century

Trist: choral music

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: called hocket.

Elaine: Okay. I have never heard of this.

Trist: Perfect. This is what I was going for.

Trist: So Michael Jackson with the technique of hocket.

Trist: Ooh, I can hear people sharing right now and not turning off

Trist: the podcast at all.

Trist: They're so excited to hear what this is.

Elaine: Okay, so.

Elaine: So tell me what hocket is.

Trist: Well, this song is "Workin' Day and Night."

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: And, well, we'll just save it.

Trist: You want to listen to the song?

Trist: We'll talk about it after people give a listen.

Elaine: Okay. So we're going to put the links in the show notes for you

Elaine: to listen to.

Elaine: And we're going to pause in just a moment.

Elaine: But before we do, Trist, can you, especially for our new

Elaine: listeners, tell us how we should be listening to music?

Trist: Well, especially for this one, so many moving parts.

Trist: It's such a thick, arrangement.

Trist: it's really great to get as many

Trist: details as you can and get

Trist: yourself in the best listening

Trist: environment.

Trist: Make no mistake, we're thrilled

Trist: that you're joining us in any

Trist: capacity.

Trist: If your - podcast time is out on a walk and you've just got your

Trist: AirPods on, great.

Trist: We're glad to have you.

Trist: If it's in the car and your car stereo is terrible, great, we're

Trist: glad to have you.

Trist: But if you do have the opportunity to improve your

Trist: listening environment, you can grab the nicer headphones.

Trist: You can go to your listening room in your cave, whatever it

Trist: is, if you can improve, why not take the chance to do it?

Trist: I don't think in our lives these days, we take enough chances to

Trist: stop and just improve our our quality of listening.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: So with that, we're going to

Elaine: pause for a moment and we'll be

Elaine: right back.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: And we are back.

Elaine: Wow.

Elaine: Okay.

Elaine: This was actually not one that I

Elaine: had heard before, this time

Elaine: around.

Trist: Really?

Elaine: Yeah. You know, growing up with Michael Jackson, you hear a lot

Elaine: of "Thriller," "Billie Jean," there's a whole bunch of the

Elaine: classics that played on the radio all the time.

Elaine: But I really did not get that

Elaine: much into Michael Jackson's

Elaine: entire discography while growing

Elaine: up.

Trist: Wow. Yeah. You know, it is interesting, I think.

Trist: Me and a lot of my friends that were into that.

Trist: We had the full albums and listened to "Off the Wall" and

Trist: "Thriller" all the way through, over and over and over that

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: I actually forget that some of these songs that to me are so

Trist: like, there were literal hits and singles that were released

Trist: from those albums, but because there were so many and I didn't

Trist: just own the singles, I had the albums, listened to them all.

Trist: So I don't think of them.

Trist: But yeah, you're right, this was not released as a single.

Trist: It was actually a B-side to some other released singles.

Trist: So that does make sense.

Trist: I have to get out of my own little world of me and my

Trist: musician friends who always listen to all of this stuff.

Elaine: Yeah. And you know, I'm getting

Elaine: to be one of those people as

Elaine: well in terms of listening to

Elaine: entire albums.

Elaine: That is something that

Elaine: especially nowadays when we're

Elaine: so algorithm driven, it is

Elaine: really challenging to listen to

Elaine: things that are a part of a

Elaine: broader album.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Well, I'm really curious about this whole thing that you

Elaine: mentioned right before the break, which was

Trist: Haha.

Elaine: Hocket.

Elaine: I'm really curious now.

Trist: So the place where the concept

Trist: of a hocket comes into play are

Trist: those nice extended brass

Trist: sections,

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: those

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: horn sections.

Trist: So when you just as a casual listen, you hear what you hear

Trist: and you hear like a little melody and a rhythm of what the

Trist: horn parts are.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: turns out that those sections

Trist: have two different recordings

Trist: happening simultaneously.

Trist: So, where you have two or more

Trist: lines happening independently of

Trist: one another,

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: but when you listen to the final product altogether, the end

Trist: result is you only hear one line of melody, even though it's been

Trist: displaced into different parts.

Elaine: Oh, interesting.

Elaine: Okay. So our

Trist: So

Elaine: brains.

Trist: two, three or four voices.

Trist: Yeah. You end up going, oh, the melody is da da da da, whatever.

Trist: This is the melody.

Trist: But then

Elaine: Um.

Trist: you find out, oh, this one person, he's saying, da da da da

Trist: da da da da.

Trist: And the other person saying da da da da.

Trist: You alternate the parts, but the

Trist: end result sounds like just one

Trist: continuous line.

Elaine: Ah, interesting.

Elaine: Yeah. I've heard this technique in lots of a cappella and choral

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: pieces before.

Elaine: So I get what you're talking about now in terms of what our

Elaine: brains interpret as a melody.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Awesome.

Trist: So that I'm gonna sing it wrong.

Trist: But like that whole middle section where it's like

Trist: *singing* My brain is thinking what that whole section is.

Trist: And there's a really great video we will also put in the show

Trist: notes that you should check out.

Trist: And it plays the example all together.

Trist: Then it plays the example again.

Trist: And it takes out one of the two horn parts isolated.

Trist: And so you can hear just one of the rhythms.

Trist: And when you hear it separately you're like, "Oh, totally."

Trist: Like it makes perfect sense when you hear it apart.

Trist: But having not heard it apart before, I'd never would have

Trist: picked it out because it's mixed so well together and written so

Trist: well again, as hocket should.

Trist: So.

Elaine: Yeah, I'm kind of curious.

Elaine: As an arranger, why would you

Elaine: choose to use this technique

Elaine: versus doing the melodic line

Elaine: all together in a single set of

Elaine: instruments, or a single set of

Elaine: voices?

Trist: Jerry Hey is the great arranger

Trist: of all of these Michael Jackson

Trist: horns that you think of in this

Trist: era.

Trist: And the Seawind horns.

Trist: It's a group of players like ninety percent the same guys all

Trist: the time on literally hundreds of albums that we've all heard,

Trist: and hit songs.

Trist: That's all I can think of, is

Trist: why you would do is just because

Trist: you want these rhythms that are

Trist: actually maybe more difficult to

Trist: play.

Trist: I'm not sure I'm gonna

Trist: investigate that a little bit,

Trist: see if I can find some Jerry Hey

Trist: interviews.

Trist: Maybe someone asks him about that.

Elaine: Yeah, I think that that was exactly where my mind went.

Elaine: And the reason I say that is a

Elaine: lot of times in a cappella, when

Elaine: you're doing that kind of thing,

Elaine: it's because otherwise the jump

Elaine: is really, really challenging

Elaine: for

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: a voice to do, especially

Trist: Right.

Elaine: if you're talking about a jump

Elaine: that's more than a fifth or it

Elaine: jumps between two different

Elaine: registers.

Elaine: It

Trist: Right.

Elaine: is one of those things where you

Elaine: can keep some of the singers in

Elaine: one register and some of the

Elaine: other singers in other

Elaine: registers.

Elaine: And that is one thing that you can play around with to at least

Elaine: take advantage of where your break is, etc.

Trist: That's a good point.

Trist: Yeah. I think in those instances you're talking about, especially

Trist: when you're arranging for a certain amount of voices a

Trist: cappella, sometimes you're doing things like that not just to be

Trist: creative or to be interesting, but out of necessity, like, oh,

Trist: this part spans a huge range.

Trist: So sometimes out of necessity rather than just, uh, choice.

Elaine: Exactly.

Trist: Yeah. I also want to investigate

Trist: if he employed that any other

Trist: places.

Trist: I will say I've heard this similar kind of thing ever

Trist: since, we dug into this and I noticed that that was the case.

Trist: So that's been interesting to realize.

Elaine: Now, one of the things I was

Elaine: thinking about as I was

Elaine: listening to this is where this

Elaine: fits into Michael Jackson's

Elaine: entire discography, but also

Elaine: within what was popular during

Elaine: that time.

Elaine: Now, I seem to remember this

Elaine: came out in the early 80s,

Elaine: right?

Trist: I think 1980.

Elaine: 1980, yeah.

Elaine: So we're thinking about the late 1970s and Tower of Power, a lot

Elaine: of the very brass and funk type of influence that

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: we have into the early 1980s.

Elaine: And the reason I mention this is by the time we're hitting the

Elaine: late 1980s, early 1990s, there's a lot more synth and a lot less

Elaine: brass in Michael Jackson's work, at least what was released as

Elaine: singles is that, what

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: you heard

Trist: This

Elaine: as well?

Trist: is, one of the main reasons I like this album the most.

Trist: Obviously, "Thriller" is an

Trist: undeniable smash, worldwide,

Trist: generationally.

Trist: Everyone knows, loves it, had the bigger hits.

Trist: But this precursor, I think a lot of my friends agree with me.

Trist: We're like, oh, yeah, that's really cool.

Trist: Man, "Off the Wall" has so much good stuff.

Trist: And I think I like the lack of technology.

Trist: There's some technology that didn't exist yet.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: Um, and it was a little bit the case for Thriller, but even

Trist: Thriller, there's a little bit more synthesizer stuff like, oh,

Trist: this is a brand new thing we're going to try out.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: Um, and there's nothing wrong that, you know, musicians have

Trist: always been like that.

Trist: Oh, here's this new toy, new

Trist: sounds that we haven't heard

Trist: before.

Trist: We're always seeking to create and try new things.

Trist: which is cool.

Trist: also with sequencing, on some of this stuff, all the percussion

Trist: and stuff that happens, like

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: try to recreate this track now and because of, how much time

Trist: and money it costs to be in a studio or just time that it

Trist: takes to do whatever.

Trist: On these, there's someone

Trist: banging on a glass bottle for

Trist: five minutes.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: They're grooving.

Trist: Instead of like, hey, give me about five minutes and I'm going

Trist: to push all the buttons on this rhythm machine, and I'm going to

Trist: program it, and then it's going to be done, and we can just

Trist: press play, and then we can get on to the rest of it.

Trist: It's like, no, there are real

Trist: humans in there grooving on

Trist: every little element, not just

Trist: like the horn parts and the

Trist: guitar parts.

Trist: So back to your talking about the technology.

Trist: Yeah, I like that about this.

Trist: I like that you wouldn't really use synth horns.

Trist: You have real horns and you wouldn't have, just programmed,

Trist: shakers and percussion.

Trist: Man, no one makes records like this anymore.

Trist: It just costs so much more money to do all of this, when you can

Trist: kind of get what you're going for and still have a big record

Trist: sound like you want, but man, I love this old way of doing it.

Elaine: Well, one of the things that is

Elaine: very different about when when

Elaine: you're talking about doing real

Elaine: live brass is just how loud it

Elaine: is.

Elaine: I'm just thinking about, some of these all brass environments

Elaine: that you're in, whether it's like New Orleans jazz or,

Elaine: there's this one group that I was watching on YouTube where

Elaine: it's like ten brass players in the New York subway.

Elaine: And, you know that's just a wall of sound, right?

Elaine: Because brass is just

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: so loud.

Elaine: Or you go to a jazz club or,

Elaine: some of the Latin music that you

Elaine: hear that is very, very brass

Elaine: heavy.

Elaine: There is such volume that's

Elaine: involved with that and it's so

Elaine: thrilling, right?

Elaine: You hear a group like Tower of Power and you're like, oh my

Elaine: goodness, I'm blown away just by the sheer volume

Trist: Right.

Elaine: of

Trist: You

Elaine: the

Trist: feel

Elaine: brass.

Trist: the you feel the energy when

Trist: you're in the same space with it

Trist: more

Elaine: Exactly.

Trist: than you can, even if it's

Trist: really perfect, amazing samples

Trist: of it, just doesn't have the

Trist: energy.

Trist: The literal SPLs, the sound

Trist: pressure levels of the air

Trist: moving through the club isn't

Trist: the same.

Elaine: Exactly.

Elaine: So that actually leads me to another question that I had.

Elaine: There were definitely elements in the breakdown where I heard

Elaine: drums, like more hand drums as opposed to a kit drum.

Elaine: And that was an interesting choice that I thought everything

Elaine: else was like, oh, you know, you could see this in a funk band.

Elaine: Any thoughts about the

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: choice

Trist: All

Elaine: there?

Trist: of the percussion through the whole thing.

Trist: Michael Jackson throughout all

Trist: of his recorded history, always

Trist: had his kind of heavy vocal

Trist: breathing and vocal percussive

Trist: kind of things that he'd always

Trist: do.

Trist: His very unique to him kind of

Trist: sounds, at the entrance, there

Trist: was always like little breaths

Trist: and vocal percussion-y kinds of

Trist: things.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Uh, he would do that a lot.

Trist: And throughout they're kind of

Trist: there, blended in in some other

Trist: places.

Trist: But some places things are stripped away and you can hear

Trist: that he's doing that.

Trist: And that's really through a lot of his catalog and these kinds

Trist: of funky, groovy tunes.

Trist: But yeah, choosing just some

Trist: different hey, on this

Trist: breakdown, we'll just use these

Trist: bongos or these congas or these

Trist: other, like, you say, hand drums

Trist: or whatever.

Trist: I understand from just these

Trist: productions, Quincy Jones

Trist: productions, are always like

Trist: that.

Trist: He's a consummate musician and always thinking of interesting

Trist: colors and textures to to keep things alive and, varied.

Trist: I think the essence here with

Trist: Michael Jackson, especially on

Trist: any of these funky groove tunes,

Trist: obviously not some of the

Trist: ballads and things, but, if you

Trist: see any video of him or when

Trist: he's ever talking about the

Trist: music.

Trist: Or if you see some of the documentaries where he's in

Trist: rehearsal and he's conveying to the band what he wants.

Trist: He's never talking technically.

Trist: He's

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: always just explaining.

Trist: No. Right there.

Trist: He's like, always just giving

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: a feel.

Trist: It's so in him.

Trist: Another thing that I'll add in the show notes, you can hear, on

Trist: one of the reissues of the CD Off the Wall.

Trist: There is a demo of this song "Workin' Day and Night."

Trist: Where just at their house on a tape recorder, him and his

Trist: brothers and sisters.

Trist: And Janet Jackson, too.

Trist: So he already had this idea of how the whole thing should feel.

Trist: So he could play that for Quincy

Trist: Jones and Quincy Jones goes,

Trist: "Ah, okay.

Trist: Got it."

Trist: I think at some point before I

Trist: knew more of the back story and

Trist: hearing some of the origin

Trist: stories of some of these things

Trist: that came from Michael's head, I

Trist: think in my brain, I went the

Trist: path of, oh, "Quincy Jones,

Trist: musical genius.

Trist: Those albums are mostly great because of him.

Trist: And Michael was super talented,

Trist: and he was able to harness him

Trist: and do all these amazing

Trist: things."

Trist: And I think it's a little more

Trist: even or even more slated to

Trist: like, "No, Michael had all these

Trist: ideas.

Trist: It's not like he had like a little bit of a song idea.

Trist: And then Quincy made it happen."

Trist: It was a little more: Michael just really knew what he wanted

Trist: and really had an idea.

Trist: And then Quincy again had the connections and the musical

Trist: understanding of who to hire, who to bring in, what

Trist: instruments to use in what places, where to mix them

Trist: between him and the engineers.

Trist: so I think it's more of a effort of just getting Michael's

Trist: essence into every track because he was so- it was just in him.

Elaine: Yeah, it's fascinating to think

Elaine: about the relationship between

Elaine: the producer and the artist,

Elaine: especially when it comes to

Elaine: something as iconic as this

Elaine: album.

Elaine: I wanted to switch gears a little bit because we were

Elaine: talking about recording technology in a previous

Elaine: episode, and one of the things that I noticed about this is

Elaine: that it for whatever reason, it was a much longer song than your

Elaine: typical pop song.

Elaine: It's, over five minutes right here.

Elaine: And I actually timed some of the

Elaine: breakdowns because they were

Elaine: extremely long.

Elaine: So there are two instrumental breakdowns in this.

Elaine: That was almost 45 seconds the first time, which

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: is forever in

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: a track from this era.

Elaine: And then later on, you know, the

Elaine: second breakdown, that was

Elaine: almost 30s.

Elaine: So we're

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: talking about, a minute and

Elaine: fifteen seconds out of this is

Elaine: just instruments.

Trist: Right?

Elaine: No Michael Jackson, it's just

Elaine: the breakdown, which I'm sure

Elaine: was absolutely amazing because

Elaine: it's like your dance breakdown

Elaine: here.

Elaine: And

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: I could also see where in a live

Elaine: performance it would go much,

Elaine: much longer because now you have

Elaine: these two spaces to really lean

Elaine: in.

Elaine: But, going back to the whole

Elaine: concept of, we're talking about,

Elaine: you know, the vinyl that you're

Elaine: pressing down.

Elaine: How do you rationalize, like the length of this.

Elaine: With the time that we have and

Elaine: the technology that was

Elaine: available.

Trist: Well, I think it circles back to

Trist: where we started is like, well,

Trist: this is probably a little bit of

Trist: an answer to why this one wasn't

Trist: a single.

Trist: Because even if you did, you would have to try to edit this

Trist: down, if you were to release it as a single and maybe there were

Trist: edits of it, maybe that doesn't have anything to do with it.

Trist: But as is, yeah, it's pretty long.

Trist: Even though it's not this exact thing, I'll say something that's

Trist: that's very different from, songwriting today, or really

Trist: even the last ten or twenty years, is what I like to call

Trist: the late third verse.

Trist: So, so many times in basic great songs, intro, verse, pre-chorus,

Trist: chorus, verse, chorus.

Trist: And then if maybe a bridge and then.

Trist: Chorus, chorus.

Trist: Chorus, chorus.

Trist: Out.

Elaine: Right.

Trist: Um. And a lot of times I'll forget, because I get so into

Trist: "that's the way that so many songs are" that I go back and

Trist: listen to some of these Michael Jackson tunes on both of those,

Trist: these albums, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller," and right about the

Trist: time you're through the second chorus or you're thinking, oh,

Trist: it's just going to repeat the chorus and fade out.

Trist: It's like, bam!

Trist: There's another verse.

Trist: It's like, whoa, I forgot that you could do that.

Trist: I'm not accustomed to hearing that.

Trist: There is a verse again that happens after a whole bunch of

Trist: sections where you kind of think we're kind of toward the end and

Trist: nope, I'm going to put another verse in here.

Elaine: Since we're talking about the the lyrics, as I was taking a

Elaine: look at the lyrics, because of course, I was reading through it

Elaine: like a poem and trying to figure out what does this mean?

Elaine: Some of the things that I go

Elaine: through when I'm looking at it

Elaine: is all right, who is the

Elaine: narrator, who's the narrator

Elaine: talking to, and what is the

Elaine: nature of what they're talking

Elaine: about?

Elaine: And so in this case, it was like, okay, we have this

Elaine: character who is talking to his honey, and she has certain

Elaine: expectations of him, and this song is a response to that.

Elaine: So it was an interesting read

Elaine: through as I was looking at the

Elaine: lyrics and trying to figure out,

Elaine: well, what does this song really

Elaine: mean and what is he really

Elaine: talking about?

Elaine: And also like, how does that fit in with the sound and the feel

Elaine: of this particular piece?

Trist: I had this epiphany.

Trist: As you were saying this, it hit me.

Trist: Wow.

Trist: For me personally, and maybe some of the listeners can can

Trist: relate to this, this kind of song, like until you just said

Trist: those things, I have never in my hundreds of listens to this ever

Trist: considered what the lyrics are.

Trist: Not one time.

Trist: You just made me realize it's even about a relationship or him

Trist: talking to somebody.

Trist: I didn't even considered it.

Trist: I'm just like, do you hear how cool that horn part is?

Trist: They did two different parts.

Trist: That's so cool.

Trist: And as you listen to this podcast, you might notice as we

Trist: go song to song, songs that are like this, I'm almost always

Trist: going to be geeking out about how great the drummer is, or how

Trist: cool it all works together, or what the pocket is.

Trist: So thank you, Elaine.

Trist: And that's why there's two of us, not just me doing this.

Elaine: Yeah,

Trist: Um.

Elaine: I will one hundred percent say that I am with you on the

Elaine: temptation just to listen to the music and not to the words,

Elaine: which is exactly why I wrote down all of the words or like

Elaine: found it online and tried to figure out what it meant.

Trist: Awesome.

Elaine: And, you know, maybe this is a

Elaine: challenge for those of us who

Elaine: are much more on the production

Elaine: side or much more on the

Elaine: performance side, that we

Elaine: actually stop and look at the

Elaine: things that we are singing or

Elaine: listening to

Trist: Yeah. I think the first time I ever truly paid attention to

Trist: lyrics and songs was after the first time I ever wrote lyrics

Trist: to a song myself.

Trist: Like, within that year, I finally, quote unquote heard

Trist: lyrics to songs that I had heard over years and years and years.

Trist: Oh. Huh!

Trist: That's what that song's about.

Trist: Because I had to create that on my own.

Trist: I finally heard that, you know,

Trist: little Red Corvette isn't about

Trist: a car.

Elaine: And I think that that's part of

Elaine: the reason why different people

Elaine: hear different things in songs

Elaine: or enjoy songs in a slightly

Elaine: different way.

Elaine: And I think you and I are wired

Elaine: in very particular ways, as you

Elaine: know.

Elaine: I've been playing piano since I was six And so I'm much more

Elaine: about the musical structure and all that things.

Elaine: And I'm not listening to the lyrics as well.

Elaine: And I also just can't pick out words that well.

Elaine: So

Trist: Right.

Elaine: as I'm looking at them, I have

Elaine: to force myself to stop and look

Elaine: at them in order to be able to

Elaine: appreciate the song for its

Elaine: totality.

Trist: I'm really glad you mentioned

Trist: this because actually, now that

Trist: I think about them, It does

Trist: really work.

Trist: They're not just throwaways.

Trist: it really is the vibe of this.

Trist: The energy of it is like, man, I'm working day and night to

Trist: keep you, etcetera.

Trist: So it kind of fits the vibe of the tune of all the things that

Trist: I love about it.

Trist: So that's cool.

Trist: but I had never really even considered what the lyrics were

Trist: until you just said that.

Trist: So

Elaine: Well,

Trist: this

Elaine: maybe

Trist: is

Elaine: this

Trist: great.

Elaine: is a challenge for both of us in the future.

Trist: Sounds great.

Trist: Very cool.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So any last thoughts before we move on to our next section?

Trist: No, man.

Trist: It's just it's great.

Trist: I highly recommend.

Trist: And I do this once a year about, I just get my good headphones.

Trist: I listen to all of "Off the Wall."

Trist: The "Off the Wall" album is just

Trist: a sonic masterpiece, I think

Trist: between his vibe and his energy

Trist: and the songwriting and the

Trist: production, and almost every

Trist: time I hear a string line I

Trist: never heard before, or Michael

Trist: will vocally like double a

Trist: guitar part.

Trist: There'll always be things that I

Trist: didn't realize were there

Trist: before.

Trist: And it's a challenge these days with all of our attention so

Trist: short, it seems these days it's a challenge to just sit and not

Trist: while you're watching a show, not while you're cleaning, not

Trist: while you're reading.

Trist: Not while you're checking your

Trist: emails, but literally only

Trist: listening.

Trist: Just put on some headphones and listen to this entire album.

Trist: And man, it's amazing.

Trist: It's like my favorite listen.

Elaine: It's interesting to think about this, like you said, from a

Elaine: discipline perspective and thinking about how we're

Elaine: training our brains.

Elaine: And so as we're taking this opportunity to listen to these

Elaine: songs, I think as a part of the practice, we are training our

Elaine: brains to be more focused, to be more aware of what's happening

Elaine: in the moment.

Elaine: So thank you very much for your reminder.

Trist: Absolutely.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: And with that, we are moving to our next segment, which is.

Trist: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Trist: Mhm. Mailbag.

Elaine: Yes. The mailbag.

Elaine: And if you have any questions

Elaine: for us, please feel free to

Elaine: reach out to us on Instagram or

Elaine: on Threads.

Elaine: We are @themusiciansloupe,

Elaine: L-O-U-P-E, or you can email us

Elaine: at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.

Elaine: So this week's mailbag comes from Threads and it is from

Elaine: Steff Fleur, who is an artist based out of Borneo, which is an

Elaine: island in Malaysia.

Elaine: And she writes, "I don't think I could leave my corporate job to

Elaine: pursue a full career in music.

Elaine: Not because I'm not passionate, But my corporate salary is used

Elaine: to angpao the musicians that helped me realize my projects.

Elaine: At the end of the day, my

Elaine: corporate salary funds my

Elaine: musicians.

Elaine: Without it, I would be

Elaine: journeying this music path a

Elaine: little lonelier."

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: And the phrase that she used in there I had to look up, angpao

Elaine: in Malaysian is the equivalent to the Chinese hongbao, which is

Elaine: the red envelope.

Elaine: So it is slang to mean to pay.

Elaine: So it looks

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: like Steff uses her corporate salary to pay instrumentalists

Elaine: or pay band members so that she can continue to make her music.

Elaine: And so she sees it as like a source of income to help her to

Elaine: build her community.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: So, you know, that leads me to

Elaine: the question of what do you

Elaine: think the role is that musicians

Elaine: with day jobs or corporate jobs

Elaine: can have on the larger music

Elaine: industry?

Trist: Oh, man.

Trist: I think the way that those

Trist: things work together, usually

Trist: starts with what the end goal

Trist: is.

Trist: So for this musician, she's saying, I need this day job to

Trist: fund the music thing that I do.

Trist: I could be perceiving this incorrectly, and every, every

Trist: situation is unique, of course, but that sounds to me like she

Trist: doesn't have the goal of being a career full time musician,

Trist: because then the time that she spends making the money to do it

Trist: wouldn't be there, Or she doesn't want to tour You see

Trist: what I'm saying?

Trist: And none of the judgment in any direction.

Trist: It's like, oh, well, yeah.

Trist: My goal is that I want to keep music in my life.

Trist: It costs a lot to do all of those things.

Trist: So my job that I normally have might help pay for that.

Trist: Then that's a little more symbiotic.

Trist: Now, if.

Trist: Okay, my goal is I want to tour the world.

Trist: I want to be touring three quarters of the year.

Trist: I want to go to lots of different countries, and I want

Trist: to go all around my country, and I want to take a band with me

Trist: and record an album every year and a half.

Trist: Like those goals don't fit with,

Trist: oh, so I'm going to do that, and

Trist: to pay for it, I have this

Trist: corporate job.

Trist: Like Those don't match up because you don't have the time

Trist: to go do all those.

Trist: Well, I say, don't try not to be absolutes.

Trist: I suppose you could have some kind of corporate job where you

Trist: traveled and could be online the few other moments you're awake,

Trist: not trying to do music.

Trist: it depends on what you have the time for.

Trist: Sometimes I think people try to do that.

Trist: They try to have a particular

Trist: goal, but then the way that they

Trist: go about it isn't symbiotic with

Trist: their goal.

Trist: It doesn't match.

Elaine: Yeah, I think I have a slightly different perspective on that.

Elaine: Part of the reason I say this is

Elaine: that you and I both know

Elaine: musicians who have been full

Elaine: time, but they've also had

Elaine: corporate jobs.

Elaine: And the reason why they've done

Elaine: that is because it's just

Elaine: pragmatic.

Elaine: I happen to live in the San Francisco Bay area, oh man, it's

Elaine: like expensive to live here.

Elaine: And so the people who have lived

Elaine: in San Francisco and tried to

Elaine: make a living out of their art

Elaine: have had to take other jobs in

Elaine: order to be able to supplement

Elaine: it.

Elaine: So I think that there's, maybe

Elaine: more of a spectrum in there, of

Elaine: what the intent of the corporate

Elaine: job is.

Elaine: Part of the reason I brought

Elaine: this up is that even if you're

Elaine: going to be, super serious about

Elaine: your work, there is a transition

Elaine: point, right?

Elaine: I think about people who have

Elaine: side hustles, side gigs of all

Elaine: sorts of types, whether it's in

Elaine: art or consulting or whatever

Elaine: types of things, they generally

Elaine: will work a job while they were

Elaine: standing up, their second work,

Elaine: their

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: second job and thinking about, okay, you know, at what point in

Elaine: time does it shift gears into The other thing is going to be

Elaine: my primary thing.

Elaine: And then, you know, the corporate

Trist: Right,

Elaine: thing might be a side thing.

Trist: right.

Elaine: And, you know, one of the

Elaine: challenges with music in

Elaine: particular is that it is very

Elaine: challenging to make it a

Elaine: sustainable living.

Elaine: And I think you and I both know

Elaine: this, where there's a lot of

Elaine: people who are unwilling to pay

Elaine: for music.

Elaine: And it's like, oh, let's just do things for exposure.

Elaine: And at a certain point in time, you just have to eat.

Elaine: And so I think that there is something to be said about, hey,

Elaine: I'm going to make music and make high quality music, and I'm

Elaine: going to feed into the industry because I will continue to make

Elaine: money and hire musicians so that we are continuing this

Elaine: environment of like, people should be paid for their music.

Elaine: And I would love to hear more people who are, doing that, like

Elaine: working their corporate jobs and actively making music as well,

Elaine: just so that we have more space for the people who want to make

Elaine: it full time.

Trist: And to me that is that's all different.

Trist: Um, again, with the if the goal

Trist: would still be to the full time

Trist: thing.

Trist: Yeah, you could have the corporate job for a while while

Trist: you're building up to that.

Trist: So when I co-founded my a cappella group, m-pact in 1995.

Trist: Yeah, when we started, it wasn't

Trist: like, okay, we're full time

Trist: musicians.

Trist: You didn't just start that, all

Trist: of us had, full time jobs, and

Trist: then it was slowly going away

Trist: from them.

Trist: That sounds different from what this is.

Trist: This is like I have this corporate job.

Trist: I couldn't leave it to pursue a career in music, is

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: what she was saying.

Trist: So that's

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: that's just and again, that's

Trist: what works for the level of

Trist: participation in music that she

Trist: wants.

Trist: Like they're commensurate.

Trist: They work together.

Trist: so it's not that you couldn't

Trist: have this and have that goal,

Trist: it's just that attaining that

Trist: goal includes getting rid of the

Trist: job you got that sustained you

Trist: while you were on your way

Trist: there.

Trist: Right?

Elaine: Okay. I could see that I'm also

Elaine: and I think going back to the

Elaine: original conversation that you

Elaine: and I had, as we're thinking

Elaine: about what should the end goal

Elaine: be, I think we have to go back

Elaine: to value statements about like,

Elaine: is it sufficient to live this

Elaine: life where you are an excellent

Elaine: musician and working a corporate

Elaine: job?

Elaine: but I think that there is maybe

Elaine: a false equivalence that a lot

Elaine: of people have that if you don't

Elaine: leave your corporate job and

Elaine: pursue music, therefore you must

Elaine: be less passionate or less

Elaine: qualified

Trist: Uh,

Elaine: or

Trist: right.

Elaine: less good about that.

Elaine: And

Trist: Right.

Elaine: I think that that's something that, I do want to make sure

Elaine: that everyone pressure tests because There are a lot of

Elaine: talented people out there who we both know who are just excellent

Elaine: musicians, and they're working day jobs, and sometimes it's

Elaine: pragmatic and sometimes they want that level of stability.

Elaine: I don't know what it is, but I

Elaine: just want to reinforce that we

Elaine: don't necessarily need to think

Elaine: that full time means that you're

Elaine: awesome and that that should be

Elaine: the goal that everyone should be

Elaine: pursuing.

Trist: Totally true.

Trist: Yeah. It's absolutely unique to everyone.

Trist: Everyone has different, needs for, the way that their life

Trist: goes, their relationships, their families, what fits into what

Trist: their goals are.

Trist: It's important to just at least

Trist: have those again be where they

Trist: can function together, not have

Trist: unrealistic goal and then way of

Trist: achieving it.

Trist: that's all that I hear there.

Trist: So to me again I hear that this

Trist: musician you talked about, it

Trist: sounds to me like she's content

Trist: with that.

Trist: it sounds like she likes the balance of it.

Trist: And some people work better that way.

Trist: And sometimes maybe their musicianship is better because

Trist: they're more balanced and, they don't feel like their whole life

Trist: is hanging on whether this next thing they do is successful or

Trist: not, etc. who knows?

Elaine: yeah.

Elaine: So any last thoughts about this before we move on, Trist?

Trist: I think that's it.

Trist: Another great question.

Trist: Elaine.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Well, with that, we're going to wrap up for this week.

Trist: Yeah. Let us know what you think about this tune.

Trist: And maybe, you know, when you

Trist: first heard it or what you

Trist: thought about it, or what your

Trist: favorite Michael Jackson funky

Trist: tune is.

Trist: Stuff like that.

Trist: Let us know.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: And with that, see you next time.

Trist: Bye.

Trist: Um, is that making sense?

Elaine: No.

Trist: Um,

Elaine: can you describe it again?

Trist: I always sound old men get off my lawn ish when I do this,

Elaine: let me try that again.

Trist: episode, by the way, should be called "Hocket and Pocket."

Trist: I just decided,

Elaine: before we do that, I gotta pour myself some more tea.

Trist: Man. Forever ago.