Barry Angel, CEO and Co-Founder of Juriba, joins Hannah to discuss how the Windows 7 Project Plan Template and Windows 10 Servicing Timeline became game-changers in the IT landscape. By offering these comprehensive resources for free, they not only addressed significant challenges faced by IT managers but also established Juriba as a trusted market leader.

The project plan, with over 12,000 downloads, showcased their expertise and provided immense value, leading to increased credibility and demand generation. Barry explains how understanding the pain points of their target personas allowed Juriba to create solutions that resonated deeply with customers, ultimately building lasting trust.

Their strategic approach not only disrupted the market but continues to yield results even years later, proving that genuine problem-solving can elevate a brand's standing in a competitive field.

Takeaways:

• Barry Angel's creation of the Windows 7 migration project template built substantial trust with clients.
• By giving away valuable project plan templates, Juriba established itself as a thought leader in IT.
• The Windows 10 Servicing Timeline article attracted over 100,000 views, demonstrating its market impact.
• Providing comprehensive resources helped project managers effectively scope and budget their IT projects.
• The success of Juriba's templates led to increased credibility and demand for their software solutions.
• Understanding the customer persona and their pain points is crucial for creating impactful content.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Juriba
• J.P. Morgan
• Chase
• Air France
• KLM
• Microsoft

Welcome to another episode of Trust Builders.

I am very excited about today's episode because I get to talk to my long term client and friend, Barry Angel.

Barry is the CEO of a company called Jeriba.

He co founded the company.

What, Barry, about 15 years ago?

Yeah, 15, 16 years ago.

And we've known each other about 10 of those.

And Jeriba is a B2B software provider.

Basically you help large companies manage their Windows application and devices at scale and make it super easy to do that.

Yep.

Yeah.

And we've been obviously, you know, morphing what the company does over the last 15, 16 years, but primarily we're still looking after large enterprise estates and looking after their PCs and laptops and applications.

Awesome.

So I invited you today on the show because when we started working together, you've done something absolutely amazing.

And even though it's been almost 10 years ago, this thing has continued to pay off until this day and it's built a tremendous amount of trust.

And I'm talking About the Windows 7 migration project template that you put together way back when.

Can you explain to us what it is and why did you create it?

Yeah.

So when we were founding Jiriba and we were looking to really understand what our customers needed in terms of the products that we were selling, one of the large opportunities for us was around operating system migrations.

Windows 7 to, sorry, Windows XP to 7, I believe it was at the time.

And one of the things that we felt that was missing in the market was a project plan that people could just go and download.

So essentially a template that someone who was a Windows 7 project manager in a large enterprise could essentially download this.

It would be a complete project plan.

So we're very keen that it wasn't just a framework with a few tasks in it.

It was a complete plan that you could actually use and tweak.

And the idea ultimately being that if we could provide some piece of collateral that was useful for the target Persona that we had for our software, then this would hopefully be a door opener for us in terms of we would understand that this customer had a Windows 7 migration project because they were downloading a project plan for it.

So it was extremely tied together in terms of a need from the customer and something that we could provide in terms of value.

But essentially it was a, you know, hundreds of lines project plan that obviously included a section for our software in it and the acceleration that would provide.

Yeah, I was just going to say it was about 800 line items in a Microsoft project plan.

Yeah, it took Quite a while to create.

I won't lie.

It wasn't a.

Yeah, it wasn't a half hour job.

But again, you know, we wanted to provide something that was of value and, you know, had everything in it that you could need that then if someone downloaded it, they weren't just, oh, okay, this is getting me started.

But it's.

I've got a lot of work to do.

You know that this is something that really would, as you say, build trust because it shows that we know what we're doing in terms of how to deliver one of these programs.

Yeah, we're going to dive into the details of that a little bit more in a second.

But when someone hears this right now, they might think, why would someone do this?

Right.

And we're really not, as you said, we're not talking about something that took half an hour.

You gave a full project plan template for free away on your website at a time when these ginormous auras transformation projects were still managed using spreadsheets.

So someone could have just taken the spreadsheet and you could have saved them dozens and thousands of hours.

Because not only did you bake your expertise in because you worked at J.P.

morgan and Chase, you worked at large teams doing exactly that, but also then you worked with other companies in Jeriba to help them transform.

So you baked a ton of experience in there and you shorten that time that they would have had to create that project plan.

So if someone hears this right now, why would you do that?

If you then offer a software, doesn't that sort of contradict each other?

Yeah, it does to a certain extent.

And you're right, you know, if I look back at it and if I knew then that it would be downloaded thousands of times, then maybe we would have charged for it.

So, but, but from the outset, think, I think that the, you know, why did we create it was primarily Jeriba's culture is all about helping people.

You know, ultimately we want to help people be successful.

Now sometimes that involves having a product sale and that's all well and good, but sometimes it just means that you're creating that first step on the ladder in terms of someone understanding that Jareba is an expert in this space.

And whilst you may not need us right now, then you may, you may not deliver that program as well as you thought you would.

When you try it yourself the first time, there'll be another one.

So when that second one comes around having some credibility there in that space and you know, really, I suppose trying to, in Marketing terms, get yourself as that market leader Persona.

Being able to build something that would have value for everyone that used it was a key part of the strategy really to building that credibility.

This was all about credibility, it was all about helping people be successful.

And whilst, like you say, it wasn't necessarily tied immediately to a software sale, what it was then tied to was future thought leadership around how to best practice some of the delivery around these operating system migrations.

So the project plan was an easy lead in and by not charging for it and by giving it away, we were able to then understand, you know, that a customer had that problem right now.

And I think anything in business is always related to a problem.

What problem are you solving?

The problem our software solved was that we could help manage large scale migrations.

But the start point of the project manager's thought process will be I need to understand the scope of this and what I need to do to get there.

So also by providing a 800 line plan, we were also helping them to come to terms with the complexity of what it was they faced and consequently again, they would then look to us more.

And this happened with a few customers like Air France.

Klm who downloaded the project plan, said this was a great staff.

However, you know, we then wanted to know, okay, but how do we approach, you know, our application rationalization, how do we approach batching of devices, how do we approach, you know, the hardware refreshes versus the in place upgrades, etc.

Etc.

And then you could build on the project plan by essentially adding thought leadership around best practices on how you would deliver it.

Again, not necessarily tied exactly to our software, but it's a much smaller leap from, okay, these guys know what they're doing in this space.

Actually they have a product that can really help us here.

And so it was trying to almost build that bridge between those two items.

Yeah, I just want to tease out one thing that you just mentioned.

It is, for an IT manager back then it was incredibly hard until you got knee deep into the whole project and you were in the weeds, lost in the jungle.

To really, truly understand what the full scope of this whole transition is, it's not really comparative to or, you know, you can't really compare it to cleaning out your pantry or sorting your Legos.

But until you actually start to sort through the mess, you have no idea.

I mean, at this point most people didn't know even how many applications they had in their organization or how many devices.

I mean, what are we looking at?

I think 30% is sort of the Number of devices that are somewhere hidden in our organization we forgot about.

So you have to make sense of that mess first of all.

And that project plan really helped people to understand, holy, this is the things I have to do.

How am I going to manage that?

Yeah.

So when you, you know, when you start to look at the scope of one of these large scale programs, and in our case it was this operating system migration, it could be a mailbox migration, it could be a big virtual migration, anything.

You tend to find that most organizations underestimate and under budget because you've got a load of tools, you've got data, you know, it might be all over the place.

You can bring in project managers and they can sift and sort things and, you know, you end up effectively really underestimating the complexity and the amount of time and effort it takes to get started with these programs.

And so a lot of really what we were trying to achieve with the project plan was to help people understand the scoping of the project and then the subsequent analysis of that data was the thing that actually would accelerate you more than anything else.

It's the hardest bit of every project.

So a lot of these projects, if you look at their timeline against the number of deployments that they manage, most of these graphs are exponential curves.

So a really, really slow start over the first few months whilst all of this analysis and data gathering happens.

And then finally you get to a point where you've got processes and you've got devices or users that are ready to migrate and then suddenly you can start to accelerate with some of the easy ones and then moving on.

What we were trying to do as Jereba was really to invert that curve.

So it was one that you could deliver all of the quick stuff early and actually identify it early on.

So you could get numbers on the board and you could then really manage the complex stuff in the tail, rather than what a lot of companies were doing, which was managing the entire 100% of the project early on and trying to understand the entire scope.

So I think a lot of what we were doing with the project plan was just opening people's minds to the ways that you could deliver things a little bit differently.

And that was effectively the bridge to our software, because being able to do that value added stuff, which is where project managers get so much kudos, is if you can deliver numbers early.

That's the thing everyone really wants to be early on.

You know, I've, I've spent X, I've delivered Y versus I've spent X.

And we're about to deliver y once we've got over all of these other hurdles.

So that was really one of the, one of the areas that we felt we could add a lot of value once people got the project plan and then started to look at what the software could deliver for them in that particular phase.

So what else did a project manager get out of it?

They were able to understand the scope easier.

They were really, they were able to plan easier, maybe even get a business case done easier because they can go to their superiors and say, hey manager, look at this, this is what we have to do.

Then as you said, they were able to get numbers on the board quicker and really shine.

Well, that was more for the software, but what else was it that was helping them with that project plan?

Yeah, so when a project manager looks at a project, the first thing that they'll always try and do is create a scope and a business case around that project.

How long is it going to take?

How much money do I need?

What resource do I need?

You know, what buy in do I need from the business units?

What's the, you know, what are the big blockers going to be?

What are the things I need to get started now?

Because they're going to take longer to remediate all of those elements.

So what, what we.

Or the feedback we got.

And funnily enough, I had someone from KPMG I was speaking to, he said, oh, I've used your project plan hundreds of times with clients.

And essentially it's just for him, and this is a specific case, but for him it was the fact that he knew this thing was complete and it worked.

And actually he could then take that to the next customer and the next customer and the next customer.

They weren't necessarily our target audience, but the similar outcome is the same for the people we were trying to help in the audience.

Because it really was, here's something that you can trust that then you can take to your management.

It's complete.

No one's going to argue with an 800 line project plan.

It looks, you know, it looks like you've spent the time putting the effort in and you could then break that down and you could say, okay, well, based on the project plan in this phase, because we had all of the sections lined out quite nicely, there was quite a few sections before you even got to deployment.

You could then start to align things like budgets and resources to each section and you could then start to build your business case, your customer communications presentations, all these sorts of things around what was in that project plan.

So it wasn't just, you know, a brute force.

Great, I've got a bunch of tasks and you know, a bunch of times against them.

It really was something that you could then go and show value with.

And that was ultimately where the helpfulness came.

How can we help the project managers look successful, be successful?

And that was a key element of it, certainly when we were writing it.

Yeah.

So I've tried to do the math and I wasn't able to get it to 100% because of the iterations our analytics went through.

But I'm confident that it has been downloaded more than 12,000 times through the different plans.

Now, you mentioned that it helped establish you as a thought leader or it helped to build trust.

Didn't necessarily immediately result in sales.

But can you paint a picture what the impact of that Windows 7 or 10 or 11 as we continuously updated it project plan template has been and maybe what would have happened if you didn't publish that project plan?

Yes, it's a good question.

I think the Windows 7 project plan had a huge impact on our business and still continues to do so.

Not necessarily, as you say, in terms of direct sales, but certainly in terms of credibility of the business to be able to deliver these sorts of programs.

Certainly in terms of our knowledge and expertise and our understanding of the problems that that Persona faces when they're delivering that particular project.

It certainly was in terms of demand generation, a big door opener.

I mean, as you say, you know, we've downloaded maybe 12,000 of these.

Of course, a lot of that audience just wanted the project plan and that's fine.

You know, they don't necessarily maybe need our software or want our software at that point.

They might just want a project plan.

But there's a portion of that audience that absolutely wasn't just looking for a project plan.

They actually, they may not have known it, but they were actually looking for a best practice in how they deliver one of these.

Because historically they had been very, very difficult to deliver.

Most of them had run over time, run over budget, and consequently, you know, had quite a bad perception.

Everyone was going into this.

As, you know, every time we interviewed someone, no, you know, I've lost my hair already because of the last one, I can't face another one, it's going to take too long, etc.

Etc.

So it was a, it was a problem and a pain point that people had generally had in the past as well.

And so when you've got that background and that foundation, then you are looking maybe subconsciously for a solution.

And if we can bridge the gap between the problem and the solution, then that's where it's really having the impact.

Like I say, it's also categorically been the lead in for some brand new opportunities.

I mean we still get them today and as you know, we're talking about the Windows 7 project plan, but we've also done equivalent ones for exchange to Office365.

We've done equivalent ones for Windows servicing and stuff like that.

So you know, these, these get iterated every time there's a brand new project, they get updated and we're still finding people downloading regularly today.

So as a demand gen tool, it's without a doubt our most successful tool.

And it's the thing that I'm still convinced just made the perfect tie between the problem and the solution.

Yeah, but you didn't leave it at that.

I remember us having quite animated discussions around the when Windows, when Microsoft brought out their Windows 10 operating system and they announced this is going to be the last operating system.

And all of a sudden the market was in a frenzy because now they had to figure out how to go away from big bang transformations and do it more as an evergreen iterative smaller updates.

And people couldn't figure out how to do it and how to actually keep track of all the upgrades that were being pushed out.

So I remember us having an article on the timeline when these releases happened because people could not figure out how am I going to plan to migrate and make it in time for the next upgrade.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah.

So for the problem, you know, when you're looking at changing from a big bang migration methodology to what we were terming at the time an evergreen migration methodology.

So effectively regular cadence of updates and this is what we're seeing today, what you tend to find is that the vendors like Microsoft will obviously eschew how easy and simple this has now become.

Suddenly we've taken away all of the problems of the past.

We don't need these great big resource and cost intensive processes to deliver something that's now just in business as usual.

The reality, as you and I discussed at the time, was that the teams that were now tasked with delivering these regular updates were not project type people.

Project type people tend to look at things very proactively.

It's okay, how can I get ahead?

What do I need to do to deliver this, you know, in the next month?

People in business as usual tend to be much more of a reactive nature.

So something's happened.

There's a Fire, I need to go and put it out.

So consequently, the sort of Persona that we were working with changed, but the problem really didn't.

It was now a different Persona that had the same problem, which is how do I get all of these devices and applications from an older version to a newer version?

Yes, it had become easier technically to do it, but a lot of the communication still needed to happen.

We still had to schedule.

You know, if you're a huge company with 100,000 devices, you still got to schedule that.

You can't just let everyone do it when they want or suddenly hit a trading floor because hundreds of people clicked a button.

It's just not the world that the large enterprises live in.

You need more control.

So consequently, reiterating that project plan away from the big migration to the more ongoing cadence was just a set of tweaks that we made, but again then had made that important bridge between the problem which is, I have no idea how to approach this in this time, and the solution, which is, okay, well there's a tool, you know, and a project plan that will get you there, but there's a tool that you can put in place that will a bit of software that will put in place that will actually help you achieve your goals.

Yeah, that was a very difficult sort of switch to make.

But I remember that we, we put out a very disruptive piece of content with that Windows Servicing Timeline article that was viewed I don't even know how many times, 60, 70, 100,000 times.

It was like wildly successful because people shared it and referred back to it on a continuous basis because we constantly updated it.

Sort of the similar idea of the project plan, be solving for a very clear pain point that your customer has and put it all out there.

Be like super helpful.

And I would say that was a massive disruption to like no one else had something like this.

And if I remember correctly, even Microsoft employees at some point commented on that article.

So yeah, when, when Microsoft announced that we were moving away and that window.

Moving away from big bang.

Excuse me, sorry.

Moving away from big bang transformations and that Windows was going to now be delivered in a, you know, very simple up upgrade methodology, it was going to happen.

I can't remember what.

It was a very complex timeline if I remember rightly.

They had major releases and minor releases and you could take some and not others and you could be on a long term branch or the regular upgrade branch.

So what they had engineered was actually quite complex in terms of understanding the decision as to what path you were going to take.

Your business, but then B, how you were actually going to deliver it within the timeline.

And so I remember talking with you and saying that actually when you look at a large scale enterprise and you look at the timeline that Microsoft are really giving you to deliver this, it doesn't work.

There is no way that people can deliver that much upgrade capability and capacity within that timeline.

And of course over time Microsoft changed their methodology and now it's something that works.

They had a lot of feedback on it.

But back then, at the time we were looking at another pain point and the pain point was really, I guess twofold.

Number one, the, the information around what release was supported until which date wasn't very clear in aggregate.

So you could find it for a single version, but you couldn't really find it for all of the versions because obviously every time, every six months they were releasing another one.

So suddenly this thing got very complex.

And then the second thing was that, and I remember you putting this together for us, is that you couldn't see it in a graphic.

And the graphic was the thing that I always loved because from that one single visual you could immediately see that you were in a problem state.

Because if you weren't this far along your process in October and you had to finish it by January, you were in a lot of trouble because you were going to be two versions behind and that was going to cause you all sorts of security risk in your business.

But without being able to see that, you just wouldn't have ever known it.

Customers were really scrabbling to try and make sense of all this, to try and keep up with the cadence, to accept what Microsoft were telling us, which is we're not going to break anything every time an upgrade.

But of course some things inevitably do break.

You know, there was events like different hardware suddenly stopped getting supported.

Well, if you're on that sort of cadence, you need to plan for those sorts of things.

You can't just deliver, you know, 20,000 new laptops tomorrow.

So actually then being able to identify again for the Persona that we were talking to, the person pain point that they had and a helpful solution again didn't sell any software for us whatsoever, but actually became, and I think at one point we were looking at our statistics and it was probably 90% of all our website hits were just looking at this one page of information because we'd put it in aggregate and no one else had.

And then I think at one point you could search for it and Jeriba came above Microsoft in terms of, you know, credibility for the information that was on that page.

So, yeah, it did get to a bit of a ridiculous level.

I suppose it just goes to show that having the right, you know, problem, pain point, understanding Persona, who's looking for this information and then providing the information would again drive the.

Drive traffic to your website.

Not the, not necessarily.

In this case, it was a bit different.

I wouldn't necessarily say that was all the right traffic, but again, people, there are customers within that set of people that went to look at that, that bit of information who then would have read other things that we then put in that article that said, here's a call to action to, you know, something else.

If you're really struggling with keeping up to date, then, you know, maybe download the project plan that would then take them to step two, etc.

Etc.

So I think again, as a door opener, it was, yeah, ever so successful.

Awesome.

So in terms of just looking at the future real quick, because the whole inbound playbook doesn't really work with generative AI coming in.

And people are also a bit saturated of everyone jumping on the content marketing train.

Right.

Like, if everyone put out something like this, it would be a different ball game, but 9.9% of the content out there is just fluffy, generic, regurgitated content.

So one of the things that really is going to make a difference in the next two years is disruptive content.

Like those things we just talked about today.

How can.

Or looking into the future, what would you recommend?

Having done this multiple times, having come up with such a disruptive idea, where should someone start when they're thinking of, I want to do what's right, I want to build trust, I want to put out a piece of content that is disruptive.

But how can they go about it?

What would your advice be?

Yeah, so when you look at the future and like you say you're looking at AI and the ability to create a blog in 30 seconds and tweak it, the challenge there is that you get a lot flattened content, you know, it's, it's useful to an extent, but I would argue that it's not particularly valuable.

It may be valuable as, you know, part of lots of content, but on its own, it really struggles.

So I think, you know, your point around how do you create the best collateral that really has value?

When I look at that problem, I really look at it in terms of what's the thing that would help the Persona that I'm looking at most.

So number one in that process is to understand the Persona that you want to help so for us, we have four different Personas, which immediately makes things a lot more complex.

But we have digital workplace leaders, we have team leaders, we have project managers, and we generally have people like application packages and testers that are doing the, you know, doing the doing.

So what you need to do is then say, okay, well, who are we selling to, which Persona are we selling to?

And who is the Persona that is most likely to get value from something that we can deliver?

Then it'll be working back to the pain point.

So as you mentioned before, you need to understand what's the biggest problem that these people face today, and is there an obvious thing that we can do to then help them along that journey?

So a good example for us right now would be we have a new product which automates a particular role in organizations.

That's an application packager and tester.

Now obviously, if we're selling to that application packager and tester, then it's a very difficult sale because we're saying, okay, but we're going to automate the repeatable stuff so you can concentrate on the more complex stuff and you can add a lot more value than you are today.

But in reality, what we should be doing is talking to the digital workplace leader, because the digital workplace leader has a different agenda.

They want to provide a better service for automation.

They want to enable their application owners, they want to save money, maybe, or increase capacity so that they can reduce the security risk in their environment.

So what we've done on that one is to say, okay, well, what's the biggest thing that we can help that digital workplace leader with?

And in our case, what they need is a business case.

It needs a business case document because they want to make a change.

So the thing that we're working on right now is to give a business case template that says you can have a couple of options with this particular product.

You might be just looking to save money, you might be looking to provide a better experience, you might be looking to reduce your security risk, increase capacity on your team, maybe change the Mode of operation, etc.

Etc.

Innovate in your environment.

The business case can support that, and it gives them something that they can go and sell the change to their organization.

Because ultimately this isn't necessarily a huge return on investment for them.

It's a small one.

But it, you know, it's, it's not a huge return on investment.

What it's all about is modernizing.

And in order to modernize, it's a different thing that you have to sell upwards it's, it's, it's not just right, we've got a project to do, it's going to cost us 5 million, we can do it for 3 if we use this tool.

Now it's a case of right, we're spending X on Y.

If we still continue to spend X, can we make Y Z?

And that's a, that needs a lot more nuance and therefore, you know, something like a business case template becomes a lot more useful.

And that will be both in pre sales for us, but also for people to just understand what does this thing look like?

You know, if I, if I start to engage with Jereba, what does this look like?

What am I trying to achieve, what's it going to actually cost me?

What are the benefits that it, it will deliver?

And so that I don't have to think about putting that together in my organization to go and sell it as a concept.

So that, that's just an example.

But that would be the thing that I would say, you know, any, anyone who's struggling, this should look at first is get that pain point, understand the pain point, how you can help with the pain point and therefore how you can then build that bridge between the, the pain point they have and your potential solution.

And then obviously add all the thought leadership around it so that it's not just a one, one, one hit wonder.

And like you just said, focus.

You know, it's very easy to just pump content out.

Everyone's doing it.

We're all swamped.

No one has time to read it anymore.

Forget that people are looking for trust builders.

They're looking for people that are credible, that have got experience and you have to get that across now much more that you, you're the one to come to that knows what they're doing.

Not that we've just thrown out another bit of content because, because we have to get 10 blogs out a day, you know, whatever that may be, become.

The voice of trust, as Marcus Sheridan would say.

So just to finish us up, I like to ask my guests what book they've read over the last six to 12 months that has changed their life.

And it doesn't have to necessarily be a business book.

If you have a different one that really stands out to you, that is not a business book.

That's fine too.

Yes, well, I'll give you a business book.

I mean, I've been reading Silo and I really like the Silo books because they just trigger thought processes in your brain about what might happen.

I remember when I was a Very, very small child.

My mum gave me this book about this vacuum cleaner that was vacuum.

It just would vacuum up everything.

And the last page on this book was that the vacuum vacuumed itself up.

And I remember even today I'm still thinking, how on earth would that ever work?

You know, it just doesn't make any sense.

So when I'm looking at the books, I'm looking at sort of, you know, I quite like concepts, you know, I like concepts that make me think a little bit.

So, yeah, so Silo was one of those similar to, you know, Hunger Games and these other ones.

If I was looking at a business book, I went to a pep talks session quite recently where there's a bunch of CEOs turn up and there was a guy there called John Andrew and he had written a book with someone called Rupert Morrison called Strategic Value Creation.

And it's the first real business book that I think is actually targeted at CEOs that really gives you a bit more tangible, you know, stuff as to what you can do better.

So in my case, I think sometimes we've struggled with the value of our board meetings.

So it's something that anyone who's got into private equity would have been through this process.

It's, you know, how do you create a valuable board meeting where, you know, you are actually talking about strategy regularly?

You know, for businesses like us, we don't.

It's not, it's not that dynamic.

You know, things don't change month on month.

So how do you make these things more effective?

And it included sections around, you know, how to create better board packs, you know, focus on what your strategic goals are and then ultimately, how do you create value within the business, which is what you were doing when you started the business, that's all you cared about.

But as the business grows and gets bigger, you start to focus on other things.

And that value creation can't be quite as agile as it used to be.

So how do you keep that focus when you're still growing versus, you know, all the other stuff that you now have to deal with, like people, management and all these other kind of things that, you know, come along.

So.

So that's one I would definitely recommend.

Strategic Value Creation.

It's a very, very good business book for CEOs.

Awesome.

I will make sure to link that in the resource section below.

If someone wants to get in touch with you, Barry, how would they go about that if they.

I don't know if you're open to this.

Pick your brain or are facing any IT management issues, how would they be in touch?

Yeah, so there's a few ways, obviously, you know, just come straight through on LinkedIn.

That's always probably the simplest route.

Outside of that, you can get hold of me through the Jeriba website.

Just do a contact us equally quite happy people to send, you know, an email.

The email's on the website.

So, yeah, there's.

There's lots of different ways that if someone just, you know, or even if someone's struggling, I'm.

I'm always happy to, you know, I don't always say that I've got the answers.

Absolutely don't.

But, you know, if someone just wants to chat something through on a problem that they're facing, then, yeah, I'd be delighted to listen and, and, you know, see if it's a similar challenge to ones that we've been through in the past and if there's any advice that I might be able to give or questions that might point them in the right direction.

Awesome.

Gary, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate our conversation and how awesome it's been to work with you.

So thank you so much for coming on, being a guest on Trust Builders and sharing your wide and very deep expertise.

So thank you so much.

You're very welcome, Hannah.

And yeah, thanks for all your support over the years.

Wouldn't have been able to do it without you.

So very much appreciate that too.