Welcome back to Late Boomers! We’re Cathy and Merry, your co-hosts, and we’re thrilled to have you join us for another powerful episode focused on reinventing, redefining, and reimagining life after 50.

In this episode, we dive deep into the meaning of real leadership, especially in uncertain and emotionally charged environments. Our guest, Jay Jacobson, brings decades of experience leading through crises, grief, and transitions, having represented funeral directors before the US Senate and having written the insightful book, Lead by Legendary Example.

We talk about what it means to be present as a leader, how to mentor effectively, and why adaptability, faith, and resilience are crucial. Jay’s insights are not only vital for anyone in a leadership position, but especially for boomers stepping into new roles as mentors, caregivers, business owners, or the emotional anchors of their families.

Episode Overview

• Defining real leadership today: beyond titles and charisma
• The importance of presence and integrity in high-stakes situations
• Jay’s behind-the-scenes experience testifying before the US Senate
• Regulation challenges in the funeral industry amid changing times
• Lessons from major crises, including the United Flight 232 tragedy
• How faith anchors leaders and provides resilience in grief
• Why mentorship is essential to long-lasting leadership
• The impact of COVID-19 on grief rituals, funeral practices, and business adaptation
• Practical steps for leading yourself and others through uncertainty and reinvention

Key Takeaways

• Presence matters: True leadership is about being present, actively listening, and understanding both spoken and unspoken cues.
• Integrity comes first: Trust and accountability are non-negotiable without them, nothing else matters.
• Adaptability is essential: Life throws curveballs, and strong leaders know how to pivot, adapt, and find opportunities in adversity.
• Mentorship is a legacy: Passing on wisdom to the next generation is how we ensure continuity and growth in every arena.
• Rituals and community have meaning: Marking endings and beginnings, especially in times of loss, matters deeply for healing.
• Faith (in any form) can be an anchor: A sense of purpose and meaning helps sustain leaders through the toughest times.
• Self-care is not optional: Step back, reconnect with your mission, and allow yourself room to rest and recharge.

If today’s conversation resonated with you, we invite you to:

• Subscribe to Late Boomers so you never miss an inspiring episode
• Share this episode with friends or family who are navigating leadership or reinvention
• Leave us a review tell us what leadership challenges you’re facing or what topics you’d love for us to explore next

Remember, it’s never too late to lead with intention and to become the kind of leader the world (and your life) needs. Thanks for listening and being a part of our community!

With gratitude,

Cathy & Merry

Mentioned in this episode:

Late Boomers is part of the eWomenPodcastNetwork.

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Welcome to Late Boomers, our podcast for people reinventing, redefining and reimagining life after 50. I'm Cathy Worthington.

And I'm Merry Elkins. We're so glad you're here with us. Today on Late Boomers, we explore new possibilities, meaningful work, perfect purpose, relationships, wellness, and how to navigate the second half

of life with intention.

Today, we're talking about something all of us need more of right now. Real leadership. Not just titles or influence, but the kind of grounded leadership that helps people move through uncertainty, grief, challenge, and change.

And leadership is being tested everywhere. In business, in families, communities, even in our own professional lives. Many boomers are stepping into leadership roles, new leadership roles, mentoring younger people, younger generations, caregiving, launching businesses, or simply being the emotional center of their families.

And leadership today requires something deeper than charisma or confidence. It requires presence, adaptability, integrity, and often the ability to stay calm when everything around you feels chaotic.

Yeah.

And our guest today knows a lot about leading in high stakes, emotionally charged environments.

Joining us today is Jay Jacobson, who has spent years working in moments of crisis, grief, and transition. His experience has given him a unique lens on leadership, service, faith, and resilience. His book is called Lead by Legendary Example.

Jay, welcome to Late Boomers. I can't wait to hear more about what you're going to talk about.

I'm excited to be here this afternoon. It should be a wonderful time.

It will be.

What did working in moments of crisis and grief teach you about what actual leadership is?

I think probably the biggest lesson that I learned is the simple act of being present. And that's one of the things that is sadly missing in a lot of our society right now. With cell phones, with screens, we're constantly being pulled out of that moment of presence. And just when you can sit in front of somebody and be fully present with them, listen to what they say, react to what they say, it makes a huge difference in your ability to handle crisis, to handle people in difficult times, and to help them through those situations.

Yeah, that is so true. And we don't often know when we're not listening. So I understand that you actually testified before the US Senate. And so how did that shape your understanding of integrity and accountability?

That was a very strong and interesting lesson very early in my life. I, I was in my very early 30s when I was asked to represent funeral directors throughout the country and setting before the Senate Special Committee on Aging talking about funeral practices. And it was interesting. Leading up to that testimony, we had numerous meetings with the senator from our State. And it was supposed to be a cooperative hearing where we were, you know, just kind of reinforcing the good things that we are doing. So we had prepared everything for that. And I knew there was something amiss when the lobbyists from our national association met me at the airplane as soon as I got off and whisked me away to the office. We had gotten the list of the other people that were testifying, and we realized very quickly that we were about to be ambushed.

That supposed to be a cooperative hearing where we were, we were going to be sharing good information, was digressing into a I got you moment. And so in the 36 hours from the time I landed until the hearing started, number one, I went without sleep. Number two, we completely revamped all of our testimony. We went from being, you know, very congeal to being almost adversarial in, in terms of our testimony. We had senators that were trying to paint our industry with a brush from a few bad apples that were practicing when the vast majority of funeral service were very helpful and very gifted people serving families at very difficult times.

So around what, around what year would that have been then?

That was right in around 2000. And it's interesting because we're sitting at the same crossroads today. The Senate and the FTC are having those same type of hearings as we speak and talking about some of the same issues. So we're going back and having to rework some of those ideas and bring those to the forefront.

Once again, as a layperson who has nothing, no knowledge of anything to do with funerals, really, how did that get. Why is funeral. Why are they controversial?

Well, the hearings were being held by the Federal Trade Commission. And the Federal Trade Commission regulates a lot of what funeral directors can and cannot do. More specifically, they require specific price disclosures to the families we serve. And that price disclosure has to be given to families very early in the conversation so that people know what, what they're spending, they know what the options are. And so in the original hearings, we were looking at how that gets expanded to the, the new norm for funeral service, which it was just becoming online and third party vendors, and they were completely unregulated.

Oh.

And so we were asking that they fall under the same regulations that funeral home providers fell under, that they had to meet the same obligations. And that was kind of a sticking point because they didn't quite know how to do that. They knew how to regulate funeral homes because we're all licensed and we're all, you know, we have training and we have various things that, that they can tap into to make sure we're doing what we say we're going to do. Whereas the online and the third party vendors, they had no way of regulating.

Oh, I see, I see. So it was a regulation and all that. Very complicated. Of course. Getting back to leadership, what does presence really mean in leadership and why is it harder now than ever?

Well, it means being able to actually sit with somebody that's in the room with you, hear what they're saying, pay attention, understand the communication that they're giving you, understand the non spoken languages that you're observing. That's even more important now today than it ever was. So many of our young people coming into this industry lack that skill.

I was going to say young people have no knowledge of how to read body language.

Exactly. And it's really not their fault because that skill is developed in humans between age 13 and age 20. And that's exactly the time that we are now handling our young people. A cell phone, a tablet, a computer. And so instead of sitting in a room and watching the people interact, they're looking in a small screen and their whole world has been reduced down to whatever they see in text or in emails or in a very small screen. Now, I grew up in a very large family. On my mom's side there were 10 kids, on my dad there were five. And every other Sunday we would have dinner at one or the other.

And so I got a crash course in reading body language. And the two families couldn't be more different. And I talk a little bit about, in my book that it was, it was like the tale of two cities.

Give us a hint.

On my mom's side it was very vibrant, it was very joy filled. It was, I mean, everybody was having a good time and, and I mean there was playful arguments over silly things like the gooseberry pie or, or the chicken gizzard, you know, those kind of arguments. But on my dad's side it was very stoic and it was the, the conversation there was filled with gossip and what's going on in the community and who's doing what and, and what they shouldn't be doing. And so when you contrast those two and you look at the, the adults around the table and you watch what's going on with them, you get a very different picture of what that body language looks like for sure. And even, even to this day, when I'm sitting with a large group of family that I'm making funeral arrangements with, I can see those personality traits coming out of the different individuals. And it helps me better understand how to work with those personality types. And when you learn that when you're supposed to between age 13 and 20, it becomes natural. And now you look at young people and I spend a lot of time, my time now in mentoring young people in this profession and helping them read body language.

They can't sit in a room and see that the guy that's sitting there with his arms crossed, not saying anything in the corner might be a little perturbed because you haven't asked him a question. And so you pause, you slow things down and you say, you know, it looks like you have something to add to the conversation, but if you miss that cue, that person walks away feeling left out. Particularly in when we're dealing with crucial critical conversations three and four times a day in our profession. And so everybody's emotions are charged. Everybody is doing things they don't really want to be doing, making decisions they don't want to have to make. And they're doing with people oftentimes in families that are broken, that don't normally sit in a room together.

Yeah, they don't even want to speak to each other, let alone so now

they're having to make decisions together. And so if you miss those body language cues, you're, you're playing at a disadvantage in terms of being able to help people and, and working their way through that process.

And that must be why the online, I'll call them vendors are unable to really service people because they can't really read body language or what is going on with that person.

Exactly. It this, I mean, funeral service is a high personal touch business. It is very personal to people. When you start thinking about how you want mom or your husband or your daughter taken care of, you want somebody that will hold your hand and walk you through it and take care of the issues that you have and do it in a very professional and caring way. You can't get that through a computer. You can't get that when you're doing it online and sending emails and texts back and forth to try it and, and achieve what we have to do in a person to person arrangement conference.

And it's such an important topic. And getting back to leadership because you've seen leadership under pressure, extreme pressure.

What separates leaders who steady a room

from those who lose it?

Well, I'll answer that by sharing a story I worked back in 1989, there was a United Flight 232 that crashed in Sioux City, Iowa. Now at about 10 minutes to 4 on a Tuesday afternoon, my phone at the funeral home rang and I answered it. It was our home office in Houston, Texas, calling to notify us that they had been contacted by United Airlines insurance carrier telling them that they had a plane in trouble over Iowa. It was likely going to crash. There were three, almost 300 people on board and they did not expect anybody to survive. So they called us to get us ready to be in a position where mentally and physically we could go when we were called. So for 40 minutes we sat there knowing that there are about 300 people in the air that are very soon not going to be alive and trying to deal with that.

That's possible, but it's also amazing they would know that so much in advance.

It was a very unusual situation. The hydraulics lines in the aircraft had been severed. A piece of the engine flew apart and the shrapnel cut the lines. And so they could only go in circles. That's the only control they had over the plane. And they spent that 40 minutes trying to find a place that they could, quote, land the plane without it being in a highly populated area. And they were able to find the Sioux City airport because it was about 12 miles outside of town. It was an airport that was in a rural setting that also had a National Guard presence.

And so that was where they decided to put this plane down. And. And it almost made it, but it crashed. As it came into the end of the Runway, the front landing gear snapped off. It caused it to pivot and roll. The one wing of the plane broke off, the one that had all the fuel in it, which was fortunate because it didn't go tumbling with the rest of the plane. The plane tumbled through cornfields which slowed it down, which allowed it not to have as much damage as it otherwise might have. And 185 people walked away from that crash.

I was going to ask you that if anyone survived. And I can only imagine what they were going through in the air.

Yeah, the ground fathom what they knew what was going on or what. But they were able to have that many people survive. That left 112 people that myself and one hundred and fifty other funeral directors from around three states were charged with taking care of. Now, it was about three days later, after the crash, before they needed us in place because they used the National Guard to secure everybody, secure the perimeter, to collect everybody, to put them in refrigeration. And then they brought us in. Now you ask about what leadership when it shows up, this is when you see true leadership, when you get 150 funeral directors who don't know each other, come into a National Guard air hangar and have to set up a temporary mortuary, an area that we can identify people, that we can do X rays, we can get dental records, we can do fingerprinting, and we can do the embalming that we need to do without the supplies we normally have and having to improvise in just about every way imaginable. You start seeing leaders rise up because they've got a solution to one problem, and then you have somebody else that rises up. I don't know how to do that, but I do know how to do this.

And you see all of a sudden a structure being built that allowed us to process all 112 people, to do it in a very extremely professional way, a caring way, and always with the families on the receiving end in mind. As we did it, we had many, many arguments with different organizations about the process and how we do it and how we keep people informed. But having done this throughout our careers and understanding the needs of the families, on the far end of this, we had a greater understanding than the agencies did about some of the ways that the information and the people should be treated. Very early we made the decision that no one would be seen in public with the families or with the press or in the office areas without a suit and tie on. Fortunately, I had brought a suit and tie with me. Nobody would be transported without being in a polished and cleaned hearse. And so those just small, caring things that we decided to keep the professionalism in it really showed the leadership of those 150 funeral directors and why they were called to be there at that particular time.

How would you say faith has shaped the way you lead? Especially when outcomes are like that, Uncertain, painful.

It's interesting because faith plays such a huge part of everything funeral directors do. We're in and out of churches all day long. Different faiths, different denominations, even folks that have no faith. And we get to see it all. I was very fortunate. Early in my career, one of the first places I worked for, I worked with two funeral directors. One was 85 years old, still working. I think he had funeral director license number two in Iowa.

The other gentleman in the funeral home was 27 years old. He was the owner of the funeral home. And they couldn't be more similar, yet more different. Similar in the way that they cared for families, but so different in the way their faith, they lived out their faith in their life outside of the funeral home. The 85 year old had a very Strong Christian faith. And he practiced it. He was the same no matter what setting he was in. The younger man, he didn't have that strong faith.

He didn't go to church. And so I watched over the years that I worked with him, his life fall apart because he had no way of processing the gravity of the number of deaths that we see. And in his world, that was it. That was the end of everything. But for people of faith, it isn't the end. It is a process of eternity. And so when you watch that and you watch how it plays out in their lives. Now, the older gentleman had been married at this time for 65 years to the same woman.

The young man that I was working for, he lost his family, he lost his business. Over the years, he became an alcoholic. He succumbed to drug addiction. But you watch this play out over and over and over again throughout my career with my colleagues who have faith and who don't. And it may not be drugs, it may not be alcohol, it may be suicide, it may be other addictions, but it happens because they don't have that anchor. And so to be successful long term in this kind of stressful environment, it requires that you have some type of anchorage holding you. There's some kind of faith.

And especially that kind of environment when you're around death and families grieving that. I don't think there is much in life that's harder than that. It's no.

And it's hard to offer hope to families who don't have any kind of faith, because what can you offer them? I mean, this is an end for them, and, and that's all they see is this is done. But when you have people who are coming from a background of faith that they have a lot more hope, a lot more understanding of eternity, and this is just a process of celebrating that person's life versus mourning their loss.

Right. Well, talking more about leadership, what leadership lessons have you learned in the funeral service arena that applies directly to all businesses and to everyday life?

Well, there are several, and I talk about them quite a bit in my book, Lead by Legendary example, that the number one thing is integrity. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. If people can't trust you in your business, if your co workers can't trust you, your boss can't trust you, then nothing else matters. But you've got to have a strong vision, a personal vision and a mission statement. You have to understand why you do what you do and where you want to go. Excuse me, in the future, if you don't have that personal mission. You're kind of wandering a roadway without a roadmap. So one of the things, when I'm working with companies or individuals, we start talking about what is your why, why are you doing this? What do you hope to get from this? What is your mission? And what values are going to drive you toward meeting that mission.

And once we have that in place, we can start talking about some of the other, the pillars of leadership, things like being present, things like developing a mentorship program where you pass along what you learn onto others. Those are some of the key pillars of any kind of leadership is making sure that you are actually leading people, not directing people, but leading them. You're. And the difference is that people want to follow a leader. They have to follow. They have to follow somebody with a title, but they don't necessarily want to. But a true leader brings people along.

Yeah, that's true.

Right. Well, how should leaders respond when plans collapse and, and adaptability is no longer optional?

Another good question. I can tell you from personal experience how it's affected me. Two years ago, I made a huge pivot in my career. Now I'm just now 65. But two years ago, my wife, who was a registered nurse, went in for a routine knee replacement and things went horribly wrong. In the next 18 months, she would have 12 major surgeries on that knee. You would experience hospital induced delirium. And we spent many days not knowing if she was ever going to come out of it.

We now, it's been over two years now. She is still disabled. She can't walk without a walker. She's in some type of therapy five days a week, whether that be physical therapy, cognitive therapy or psychological therapy. So for me to do my job the way I used to do it is completely gone. And so we had to restructure. We had to look at, okay, what's important to us. I need to be there where I can help you.

I need to be there where I can take you to your appointments. I need to be there in case you fall. I need to be there to pick you up when you do fall. So those are things that we had to make changes very late in my career, just at a time when we thought, okay, we're just now getting to the point where retirement, it's a few years away. We both planned on working till 70, but everything changed. And so instead of being able to travel and go and be at funeral homes like, like I am this week, it was for a year I was at home. So I transitioned my Business from a model of going out and physically being there to one of training. And so I started training the next generation of funeral directors.

I started working with funeral home owners about what how to make their business and transition much more successful. And it came at a very good time because a lot of people in our profession, owners in particular, are struggling because of COVID Covid completely changed funeral service as we know it.

Yes.

All of a sudden we went from in Iowa, we were at, you know, maybe 30% of our cases were cremation services. Now cremation service has a lot less profit margin than a traditional service. So funeral homes, all of a sudden their revenue stream was gone. We went from 35 to 85%. Cremation with COVID makes sense. Another thing that happened is because of the way our government structured things and telling us we couldn't have funeral service like we used to. We couldn't have that many people in one room. We went from, okay, at one time it was down to 10 people we could have attending a funeral.

Then it moved to 50. But all of a sudden people thought, okay, funerals are not important. The government says funerals are not important. And so overcoming that mindset has been a big challenge. The other thing that happened is that people started scheduling for convenience. So in Covid era, we didn't have a funeral right then because we said, okay, we'll have it later. So it taught our clients that, okay, we don't have to have a funeral in the three or four day time period that we've all been used to, which is psychologically the best way to have it and deal with it in the moment. We're going to schedule it out three weeks when everybody can be there, six months when everybody can be there.

So it changed our model. So now when we sit down and meet with the family, we make arrangements and they said, now the funeral, we're going to have three weeks from Saturday. Well, normally on Saturday, our staff has already put in a full week. So now we have overtime issues we're dealing with and scheduling issues. But what adds also to this is the fact that in the next three weeks, that same family is going to change their mind four or five times. Oh, so the funeral we arrange this week may change next week and we redo everything. And so it's completely change the dynamics of what we do as funeral directors and, and how we view the process.

That's an interesting thing you might teach young people and mentoring young people, you said you transition to that. So on kind of a pivot here what role does mentorship play in creating leadership? And how do you make it last a lifetime beyond one generation?

That is really the whole point of mentorship. And we lost a lot of people my age during COVID in our industry. They saw this, they worked through it, and they said, I'm done. I'm going to retire. And so the people that would normally be mentoring the next generation aren't there. But passing along the knowledge of how we treat families, how important it is, is extremely important in our industry and in any business because we are only one generation away from completely changing everything that we do. And so if we don't take the time to teach the next generation, if we don't have that patience to help them fail and then work them through success, they are ultimately going to fail and fail in ways that might cost them their business in the long run.

And of course, that applies to all the businesses.

Yes, indeed it does.

Well, if a leader listening today feels worn down or disillusioned, what's the first small step you could encourage them to take?

I would say step back, take a break. We don't do that well. We grind through, and funeral directors are notorious for that. We. We grind through everything. But step back and let somebody take the reins for a short time. Think about again, your why. Why are you doing this? What are your missions? What are your goals? And going back to your missions and goals is like drinking water from a well that refreshes you.

You once again see that with fresh, fresh eyes. You see, why did I get this into this business to start with. And you begin to understand how important what we do is in. In continuing. Hang on. I'm sorry, my phone rang.

Yeah, I think we all tend to try to push through when we're at a standstill or at a transitional point. You know, many of our listeners are in a transition, in a life transition. I know when you spoke of COVID I certainly went through that myself because my husband passed away right before, and having a funeral was just out of the question. Even getting him buried or cremated was tough. So it was a really tough situation. And I really feel fortunate that I had good people helping me. And Cathy, of course, was very supportive. Thank you again.

But, you know, or they're, you know, maybe it's not death, maybe it's retirement or reinvention or career change or losing something that was very dear to them. So how can someone lead themselves well during a season of personal uncertainty?

Well, how I handled it and how a lot of people handle is I started a journal I started writing. I. It was originally started. We ended up at Mayo Clinic, which is about three hours from our home. Our two daughters could not be up there with us. So I started a shared document, basically outlining everything that was going on minute by minute at the hospital. What the doctors were saying, the discussions we were having, and keeping them in the loop. And as this progressed, day after day and hour after hour, when we came to the end of this, and I guess we're not at the end of it yet, but we're still writing it, a lot of my thought process was starting to enter into the document.

I was writing the thoughts that went into, why are we making these decisions? So they would understand. And those leadership principles started rising to the surface. And so I got with a publisher, a very good publisher, who helped me take that document and sort out the principles we were talking about and put it into a leadership book. And it was very therapeutic. My wife tells me a lot of times, you know, you know, why. Why don't you need therapy after everything you've gone through the last two years? I said I was doing my therapy, writing this book. Just getting your thoughts down and, and putting them on paper is a huge way of helping transition through tough times. You can refer back to your words, you can look at when you made sense, when you didn't, when you were overreacting, when you were on the right track.

You can also measure that against what you say your values and your mission are. And see, have I drifted away? It helps you bring. Bring you back to some sense of what is normal.

It's great, Jay. And also, I wanted to say my husband also passed away during COVID but late later in Covid, like when not from COVID So everybody been vaccinated, but we didn't have a memorial for another six months after that. And it's hard because people weren't comfortable coming out. Yeah.

And it's hard when you don't do that, because then when you go anywhere, it becomes a reminder. You run into somebody at the grocery store and it's, oh, I'm so sorry. And they want to offer their sympathy in places that are not appropriate to do that.

The market.

Because people don't know what to say anyway.

No, no, exactly. But that's why it's important to hold something close to the time of the death, because it gives the community a place to do that in a format that's appropriate and is and isn't hurtful to the. The person, the family that's left behind.

I just went to One I just went to one from a memorial celebration of life from my sister in law who passed away two and a half years ago. But it took the 13 children, the 13 grandchildren and the four adult children that long to plan it. But consequently it was less sad. It was, it had some benefits. It wasn't bad. Yeah, it was really delightful, in fact, because people were kind of more through the grief.

Yeah. Well, like you said, Cathy, even a celebration of life, it's what Jay said earlier, where people have to, they celebrate with joy that the person lived and gave them so much for them to pass on.

And that's how hers was. It was really lovely.

We're actually going through that right now with my aunt Judy, one of my favorite aunts. She passed away here a couple weeks ago and from cancer. And she was a delightful lady. I mean, she was so much fun. She would babysit us when we were little. And I've got one picture that I dearly treasure where I'm laying on the floor and she's sitting on me, holding me down because I was always into trouble.

That's an interesting way to babysit. Yeah.

But that's what made Judy. Judy. But we're working on planning a memorial service for her this summer. She had told her family, I do not want a funeral. I do not want a memorial service. And what a lot of people who say that don't understand is that it's not for them, it's with the people that are left behind. Need. And I was able to talk to her daughter and her husband.

Her daughter was much younger than us and we didn't know her when we were growing up, but we got to know her over those couple of weeks because we invited her to stay with us rather than drive an hour away to, to visit her mom in hospice care. So we spent two weeks really getting to know her. And she's a delightful lady. But we had those tough conversations about, yes, you want to honor your mom's wishes, but you also have to take care of your needs.

And you get to decide because you're going to spend the money and you're going to decide what you need. But Jay, looking back over your career, what's one leadership principle you wish more people truly understood earlier in life?

I, I think it has to do with pivoting, being able to, to move when things don't go right. I look back over my entire career and every time something went poor, I've been fired from jobs. I've had hardships in terms of finances. I've had hardships in terms of family. But every single time we came out on the other end better. There was always something better if we just looked for it. The jobs that we got after being let go always were better positions. They were, they were meant, they were the right fit.

All of those things, they, they're stressful in the time, but if we look them, look at them as opportunities, not what's happening to me, but what's happening for me, it's a much more positive way of addressing the adversity that's in our lives.

Oh, what wonderful truth. Thank you.

I agree.

Yeah. Happening for you, Jay. This has been such an insightful conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your work wisdom and, and your perspective on leadership and resilience and, and service and, and, yes. And truth.

Well, it's been delightful to, to sit and have a conversation with you ladies. It's, it's been enjoyable and, and I hope there's at least a little bit of nuggets of, of wisdom that you can take away and, and hold and, and introduce into your lives.

Well, I took a note or two.

Thank you. And to our listeners, if today's conversation resonated with you, please subscribe and share this episode and leave us a review.

And remember, it's never too late to

become the kind of leader in your life and the people around you, that kind of leader that people need.

Thanks for listening to late boomers. We'll see you next time.

Sam.