Marinus Heymann is the Regional Managing Director for Jigsaw Advisory in the Middle East and has 15+ years of experience in consulting focussing on Enterprise Performance Management, Corporate Strategy, Analytics and Digital Transformation.

He has extensively worked with clients across the Middle East, Southern Africa and Europe and has led large Strategy and IT transformation engagements.

Marinus holds a double bachelor's degree in Business Management and an MBA from the University of Pretoria.

Sponsor Information

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Transcript

Hadley: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show, Marinus. 

[00:00:02] Marinus: [00:00:02] Thanks Hadley. Happy to be here. 

[00:00:04] Hadley: [00:00:04] Cool. As you know, the show focuses on the trait of curiosity. So today we want to find out the essence of Marinus and we want to understand what your life has been like and how curiosity has played a part in that. So take us on a journey. Where were you born?

[00:00:23] You know, how many siblings did you have? What w what was your family life like? How did that impact you? 

[00:00:29] Marinus: [00:00:29] All right. Um, so I was born in Pretoria, South Africa. Uh, with two siblings and older brother and older sister, um, they were quite, Hadley: So you were the baby? Marinus: yeah. Oh yeah. I was, I think, um, and nine years younger than my brother and seven years younger than my sister, so, so, okay.

[00:00:49] Hadley: So were you spoiled? Marinus: Very, very spoiled privileged. Um, so we grew up with a father who, uh, graduated an engineer and a mother who was a nursery school teacher. And, um, when my brother and sister grew up, we had very, very, um, I want to say a little income because my father just invested everything either towards his own learning and studying his MBA or, uh, into the nursery school that my mother, uh, started just before I was born, actually.

[00:01:29] So, so they didn't have that much growing up. Um, When I was young, I kind of got the tail end of it. So luckily, um, and then that's kind of leading into how I was spoiled. Um, not, not ridiculously, but obviously more than my siblings. So, um, so we, we had a wonderful childhood. My parents are great, great people and great parents.

[00:01:56] And, um, my father always had this, this notion of kind of academics first, although I was a terrible student at school. Um, and the reason for his academics first was he, he grew up with grandparents who were all self-taught, um, And who valued a valued learning more than the academic qualification. Uh, his father was a professor in electrical engineering or, um, again, starting from a very humble basis and then, and then pushing that continuous learning and my father kind of built that into me.

[00:02:40] Um, 

[00:02:42] Hadley: [00:02:42] just, just, just quickly, a quick aside in that, right? With the availability of quality information and knowledge readily available on the internet, do you think that the same emphasis should be put on a structured academic kind of path especially within technology, right. Um, w when three years down the lane, you know, the information that you gain, you know, at the start of your career or at the start of your course, rather, maybe even be outdated.

[00:03:16] What are your thoughts on that?

[00:03:17] Marinus: [00:03:17] Right. So, so let me put it to you in this way. So our curriculum in school and in varsity is very, very structured and I think no one has a real alternative third for that. And with the COVID pandemic that has been kind of turned upside down and we will see the fallout from not having that co located, facilitated learning.

[00:03:48] Um, but it opens up new new avenues, right? So that's, that's for kind of pre, um, pre varsity pre graduates. Uh, well, pretty graduate education. When we look at technology and it was, it was the case in my study is the case of all my peers and the people that I had managed to work. All way older than I was that all technology, um, training was essentially outdated by the time that they had to, uh, that they got to implement anything.

[00:04:22] So I think in, in the tech space, you will definitely see, um, Google stepping up because they've already rolled out the Google academy type learning. You will see big firms, um, partnering with universities to actually teach the relevant, both practical and theoretical components that are required. 

[00:04:48] Hadley: [00:04:48] And do you think that's like short, sharp, targeted courses?

[00:04:51] Marinus: [00:04:51] Um, yeah, so, so I think Google. Uh, they're pushing the, kind of the basic stuff right now. So, uh, user experience, um, basic coding, basics of project management, product management, and so on, and that'll be a tremendous basis for, for guys entering the workplace. Not, not necessarily, uh, that want to go in that formal education direction.

[00:05:19] I would say though, that the underpinning, um, components of a, of a formal education helps you to think a little bit differently now for me, that it was, uh, there was a massive advantage because I'm a, an inherently lazy person that, that needed to be forced into that structure. I’m, um, Lazy, if I'm not given a target and given this is the roadmap for improvement.

[00:05:51] Right. Um, but when I'm given that, it was like, oh, okay. I want to progress to the next level because I don't want to be stuck where I am. Right. So it's, it's kind of a, um, it's called a creative danger, right. So you're giving me the challenge of like, uh, I want to complete the challenge more than I want to do something else and they might just go for it so that it was, there was extremely useful for me.

[00:06:12] And, and I mean, as I said, my, my father had instilled this, this continuous learning, um, motto in our lives and it just never kind of subsided. So, so I was a terrible, I would say kind of mid range, uh, student at school. I always focused on sports because I liked that a lot more, um, in university almost the same, really, um, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.

[00:06:41] So I just, I knew that, you know, I kind of appease my father by saying, okay, fine. I'll do my degree. And even after my degree, I thought, okay, it's great, but you need to continue to study and to learn because otherwise what you'll find will be redundant. And that's what I feel right now. So you have many highly educated people that, uh, that have very little sway in their own, uh, in their own field of expertise, just because they've actually stopped learning.

[00:07:11] And you have guys that are absolutely fantastic rock stars in their field, um, just because they never stopped. 

[00:07:19] Hadley: [00:07:19] And, and that, and that is, but that is clubhouse. That is, you know, books it's it's and that's the thing I love about. And, and this, this concept of lifelong learning, right. Or continuous learning, you can never learn everything.

[00:07:34] Even if you choose to specialise, there's so much to learn, you know, and there's always so much more that you can add to make what, you know, more complete it's lifelong learning.

[00:07:45] Marinus: [00:07:45] Yeah. And there's this great quote, I forget who said it, but it reads, um, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

[00:07:56] Right. That's so true. And that basically it just means, um, when you're ready, you'll learn that next bit, even though you've read it 10 times. But when you're ready, you'll be able to consume that information. 

[00:08:09] Hadley: [00:08:09] Here's the thing with that, right, is, is if you want to stand at the core, the, the kind of general vicinity of what you want to learn and what it is you’re interested in and want to know more about, it's almost like a puzzle.

[00:08:21] You start in the middle of the puzzle, right? And, and, you know, the concept of lifelong learning means that you will never finish the puzzle, but you start in the middle and you add the bits that fit. And I love the saying, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. There's always a next level to everything.

[00:08:38] So I try and apply that to my life right now and go, no matter what it is, find out more, see if there is a structured way of thinking. Not that you adopt everything you learn, you can take anything from, from, from what others have done. And from their experience, tailored it to yourself and make that a part of you

[00:09:00] Marinus: [00:09:00] the part of you way that I've always looked at it.

[00:09:04] I really never knew what I wanted to do with my life. And I really never knew which direction I wanted to go other than general business, as long as it's going forward. And I've put the boundaries quite far apart. And as long as it's going ahead in that general direction, and that was it completely 

[00:09:26] Hadley: [00:09:26] agreed.

[00:09:28] Yeah. So sorry for the diversion now. So we were talking about, um, I guess you and, 

[00:09:35] Marinus: [00:09:35] so there was kind of childhood and a father's discipline that he tried to instill and, uh, continuous learning and all of that. Yeah. So, um, I would say a significant component of my life was, uh, growing up at least was I was part of the Afrikaans based, um, You can say boy Scouts, right?

[00:10:05] So that was called the Voortrekkers. So any Afrikaans guy who was very cultural will know the voortrekers and most South Africans would. and they installed, uh, not, not installed, but they helped me to understand and unlock what I would consider my, my leadership potential. Right. 

[00:10:30] Hadley: [00:10:30] So tell me what that looks like. I mean, that is fascinating.

[00:10:32] That is, that really is so, so, so kind of just give, give us a picture of, of what that looks like. What is the process look like? What are the people in there look like? How did that collective of processing people instill a sense of leadership? 

[00:10:49] Marinus: [00:10:49] So if you think about it, it has teamwork. Written all over it with small tasks and small goals that you try to meet.

[00:11:00] And that's from the age of seven when you actually start with the organisation, right? So there's a lot of discipline as, I mean, little badges and then kind of achievements that you get and unlock, but through the whole process of working within a team and trying to help the team lead the team, support the team, all of that different people understand or get to understand the strengths and get to understand how it works to just perform in a team.

[00:11:28] And as I said, like the boy Scouts, the boy Scouts, because the Afrikaans version of the boy Scouts, I think it's a phenomenal undertaking to actually go through that. And I was there, I guess, for, for about 12 or 13 years, And as I said, uh, it made a wonderful impression on me. Um, but at the end I left the, the movement just because of, I would say certain differences in ideology that I only realised later on

[00:12:01] were not where I want it to go. Yeah. Not quite aligned. I mean, the, the people to a large extent are fantastic and wonderful people, but there’s a faction that, that pulls back to the, to the extremes, to the extremes. And I really didn't like that. 

[00:12:20] Hadley: [00:12:20] We delve into that just a little bit. Marinus: Sure. Hadley: Okay, cool. So, and context here.

[00:12:25] Right? So, so here's my belief, right? It's people, it's individuals and the system of apartheid was. You know, was exactly that segregation. Right? And no matter on which side of the fence you grew up, it was segregated. So even within the Afrikaans community, that all the white community that was seen as everyone in that camp is, you know, a supporter of the system.

[00:12:50] It's not true. I, children growing up in that environment, like, I didn't know any better. Right. Also didn't know better. And they will obviously always come a time when you do realise, like, you've just said, you know, that actually, you know what, now, now that I'm kind of seeing what's happening here. There are parts of this thing that, that doesn't sit well with me, you know, but it's individuals, it's, it's people and obviously a collection of individuals make some movement, but similarly, a collection of individuals could stop it.

[00:13:20] So if you don't mind, what did that moment actually look like? You know, so, so the moment when, when through this, this organisation, so the voortrekker organisation that you knew as a kid and, and that. Had uh, by the sound of it, a significant impact, positive impact on your life. I'm thinking that must have been quite a challenge.

[00:13:43] You know, something that you've been involved in for so long since you were a child having ideologies that you, you, you instinctively as an individual realise this isn't for you. What was that like? What did it feel like? 

[00:13:58] Marinus: [00:13:58] Um, it was rough. So, so when I was in varsity, I, I had a lot of exposure to actual philosophical reading, philosophical thought, critical thinking.

[00:14:13] And the more I delved into it, the more I started to question. The underlying assumptions of where I came from and then who we are and what decisions we make. Right. Uh, the moment that I really started questioning all this was just before I matriculated. So just before in high school and that's kind of expanded and I started questioning more and more and more and more.

[00:14:35] And, uh, my, my parents always told me not to fall to peer pressure. And at some point there was just this inflection of, wait a minute, am I believing this because it's what I really fundamentally believe in it, full through this process, or is that because everyone else around me is thinking and believing this and that's why I had the departure.

[00:14:58] So a lot of the, um, a lot of the Afrikaans stuff, I mean, Afrikaans is a wonderful language, wonderful people, as you said, but there was some. Uh, part I believe is still in the movement. And I just thought, you know what, this is not for me. I don't know why you're doing this because it's not the liberal way that I'm trying to get to right now.

[00:15:18] Yeah. So, um, I am a liberal, I had extreme liberal views. Now it's a lot more moderate, but, um, as you grow up and, and, uh, thought you have children, all of that kind of evolve 

[00:15:34] Hadley: [00:15:34] and you find your sense of self, right? Well, 

[00:15:37] Marinus: [00:15:37] yes, I, I did find my sense of self more today. End of my, beginning of my twenties was, uh, That was a very rebellious, uh, time for me.

[00:15:50] Hadley: [00:15:50] Yeah. Take, take us through that. So, so, so now, right, we we've, we've got you at the start, your, your mom and your dad, very entrepreneurial, you know, strong Christian beliefs, um, and, and a sense of discipline and, and, and essentially curiosity and lifelong learning right through the, the voortrekkers, your primary school, your high school, and you matriculate now.

[00:16:11] So at this point, are you on your way to university? Are you, are you, have you just finished high school?

[00:16:16] Marinus: [00:16:16] So the rebellious stage kind of started at the end of high school, right? So I started questioning everything and everyone, uh, because that's what, what continuous learning was all about and questioning certain things, going to varsity actually equipped me with some frameworks and some, some questions from.

[00:16:41] Uh, from, uh, I would say ideological and philosophical point of view that I didn't have before, just because I didn't read in that direction that never crossed my path so to speak. So I would say that's, it just had some evolution in my thinking. And then, uh, it didn't necessarily sit well with, um, with my family, with my community.

[00:17:08] I lost a lot of friends and it was just one of those consequences, 

[00:17:12] Hadley: [00:17:12] the right choices aren't always the easy choices. So now, um, is there anything else within your, your, your university life that, that you want to touch on? Or are we now going into start of work? 

[00:17:25] Marinus: [00:17:25] Yeah, I think start of work, um, sort of work was kind of free, same for the university because I started with the family business.

[00:17:36] Uh, so interning at, 

[00:17:38] Hadley: [00:17:38] do, do you want to take us through that a little bit to what the family business was?

[00:17:41] Marinus: [00:17:41] Right. So, so the family business, my father and my brother started fifth discipline consulting in my last year of varsity. And they asked me to just help out as an intern because my father probably thought, look, this guy just wants to go overseas and go do professional cycling, which was a big thing for me at the point.

[00:18:07] And, um, and he said, well, how about you come and join us and just kind of implement what you've learned in varsity here at this firm. And it's going to be great. So I reluctantly joined because strapped for cash student, 

[00:18:25] Hadley: [00:18:25] What did fifth discipline do? 

[00:18:26] Marinus: [00:18:26] Right. So, so fifth discipline started as a management consulting firm with the ambition to consult on strategy, execution and strategy implementation.

[00:18:38] Right? So that's also what I majored in, uh, in varsity. And so my first job was to understand and dissect and build tons of presentations around the balanced scorecard, which was a big philosophy or management philosophy at the time. Um, and then it's kind of pivoted towards, uh, SAS analytics, implementation and business analysis.

[00:19:07] Now, uh, you will obviously have a lot more, a lot more background in that, but for us, it was. Oh, okay. There's this, uh, there's this analytics, uh, software solution that, uh, kind of relates to strategy implementation. And we have a client called Eskom that needs this to be implemented. And I was the first consultant on site, um, knowing the ins and outs of strategy execution, not knowing the software at all.

[00:19:43] And I had a very of soft landing in that space. Um, so, so fifth discipline at that point, uh, grew, I think, to around 20 consultants, just doing business analysis around what we did and 

[00:20:00] Hadley: [00:20:00] over what period of time. 

[00:20:03] Marinus: [00:20:03] So that was over probably a two year period. 

[00:20:09] Hadley: [00:20:09] That's fantastic, man. 

[00:20:19] Marinus: [00:20:19] It comes with its challenges, but from a business...