Are you on "Team R" or on the "Non-rhoticity Team"? Do you pronounce your Rs in English?

I talk with Mark Byron Dallas, a dialect coach who I adore to learn more than I thought about the British Intrusive R!

What's the difference between Linking R, Intrusive R, and even Hyper-rhoticization?

There are accents in English that are Non-Rhotic, meaning they don't pronounce the R unless it's immediately followed by a vowel sound.

What accents of English are non-rhotic?

• Most English accents in England
• Accents in Australia
• Almost all the accents of New Zealand
• Most accents of South Africa
• A few accents in North America as well (mostly on the East coast of the United States)

There's even a kind of polarization occurring around Rs- either you do it or you don't in order to sound more prestigious.

We also talk about:

• Historical influences on Rs
• How saying (or not saying) your Rs can be a status thing
• Forbidden experiments
• Slang and Urban Dictionary
• Discrimination
• Noticing people's accents
• Identity
• Cults
• Twin languages
• the 'Where are you from?' problematic question

AND

• Mark's own accent changes through time

Listen to this episode for more information about Rs in different English accents than meets the eye!

If you're an actor looking to brush up on your accents for work, consider Mark's 5 Fridays to Fluency course!

https://www.talklikethat.com/5ff

Mark Good copy Intrusive R

Mark: What's interesting to me about Intrusive R is that it's basically an R sound that pops up even though it's not invited to in the writing, right?

So what I think what we need to do is distinguish intrusive R from linking R, right?

Cause they're, they're two different things, right? If you don't mind, I'd like to start with linking R.

Bianca: Please, please.

Mark: Because with linking R what that is, this is a phenomenon that exists in accents that are non-rhotic.

So in those accents, in those non-rhotic accents, what happens is like I said, the R isn't pronounced if it comes after a vowel, and then what comes after it is nothing. Like a pause or if a constant comes after [00:02:00] it.

So just like in my accent, I said after it.

So there's an example just there of a linking R because usually I would say /æftə/ and then it, but if I put those two words together, we get the linking R, which is /æftərit/ okay so that's a linking R.

Okay?

Bianca: So, we can say that in American English, for example. I'm gonna pronounce that R when I'm linking, and you guys other accents are too, but only if there's a vowel after it.

When it's got a word, the next word starts with a vowel sound. It appears just before a word that starts with a vowel sound.

Bianca: And it seems to me like this is the R that is always invited to the party and it never comes in those other accents.

Mark: Yep.

Bianca: It never comes to the party. You always invite them, but they never come. And then it seems to me like the Intrusive R is the guy you don't invite to the party, but he always shows up. Is that kind of

Mark: Right

Bianca: how you think of it?

So instead of saying /ɑfterɪt/ where you have the linking R, you might have /ɑfteʔɪt/.

Right?

And so for example, in South Africa, many South African accents don't have linking r.

They don't use it. And instead they'll employ a glottal stop instead and say /ɑfteʔɪt/.

So, yeah. That's a great that, that's a very funny analogy you have where it's somebody who's not invited to the party but just shows up anyway .And so now we're talking about intrusive R, which I think is a great word, because it's the intruder, right?

Bianca: Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah

Mark: They weren't, they weren't asked, come along.

And so many of my fellow teachers have said to me, I just taught something about intrusive R.

From this book that is obviously from the UK, and it said that you pronounce it like Law Rand Order instead of law. Instead of Law and Order.

It's /lɔrənɔdə/ . And I'm like, yeah. And they just looked at me like this cannot be true. What is going on?

Bianca: You're like, yes, and they're like, no, you're kidding me.

Mark: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, we've been doing it for ages, but or for ages. There's a linking R.

Mark: Okay. So I think what first of all I'll just explain that just very quickly for anybody who didn't catch that, this is an R sound that turns up even though it's not represented in the writing.

And so it's a phenomen a phenomenon whereby you have an R sound that is inserted into the end of a word, or actually between words.

Which would be a word that ends in a vowel sound. Ends in a vowel sound. Usually that would be either the central vowel like, /ə/, or schwa.

So back, so where the ends in the back, and then the next word starts with a vowel sound. This is a, it's like a, an in, it's an overgeneralized reinterpretation, if you like, of Linking R. So, because we've always done this linking R, ever since we dropped the whole, okay. You don't need to pronounce the R if it's not followed by a vowel, right?

Which you guys, most of you guys in North America didn't get that memo. And for us it was like, okay, this is much easier.

You know, this is one less phoneme we need to pronounce.

Bianca: Yeah. Yeah.

Bianca: Combinations might otherwise be more difficult, right? So that R is, it can be quite helpful. So I can see why number one, it was kept, right? You have got a vowel, right? And then a word that ends in a vowel and R, and then the next word begins within a vowel. Hey, that's helpful, right? I can link that through. I don't have to glide through two to four vowels. I don't have to end up doing that cuz the R can be like a spacer, right? It can help me out with that. So it makes sense how, hey, this R is pretty handy. I think we'll stick it in here too, right? To make those vowel gliding things easier. Is that what you're going for?

Mark: So, for example, yeah. Cause otherwise you're going from for example, law and then the next word and Uhhuh Law and Or Law and Order.

Bianca: And God forbid you're not reducing that that and to /ən/, at least in American English, we're gonna be like /æ/ and. So law /ɔæ/ law /ɔæ/ law and. Imagine you're not even reducing that. That's how far distance to go. And wouldn't it just be easier to stick something in there and make it, give it a little cushion.

Mark: .Right. Exactly. So, I mean it, this is only something that tends to happen in non-rhotic accents, you know?

And I know it, there's a, there's another thing as. That is called I think it's called overrhoticization.

Bianca: Ah, tell me about that.

Mark: Hyper, hyper rhoticization.

So an example of this you could find in Mr. Fauci s accent. Fauci is from New York. He's an older speaker from somewhere in, in New York state. From the, the City of New York which is traditionally a non-rhotic accent.

And so if you listen to some of the words he says, he'll put an R sound where there isn't one. Because in his own accent, there wouldn't normally be a letter R. It's a non-rhotic accent. But then sometimes, hyperrhoticizes or

Bianca: And regardless of if there's a vowel in the next word,

Mark: correct?

Bianca: Yup .So that could be a word that ends in a vowel and then let's say a period or a comma or some kind of pause and

Mark: Or as he might say, /kɔmər/

Bianca: Exactly. And he wouldn't say the word or after it. He wouldn't be, he wouldn't be in, he wouldn't be using that intrusive R to, in a way, to link them, even though there's no R, he would do that, even if there is no need, let's say, as a linking tool, correct?

Mark: Yes. Some people, yeah. might do that. Yeah.

Mark: I think really the way it works is that it just tends to, , if the last vowel is a back vowel or a center vowel and then it doesn't matter what the vowel sound is that the next word starts with.

Bianca: Okay. Okay.

Mark: It just has to be either the sh the schwa sound.

That it ends with, like comma or it can be it would tend to be a, a back sound like /ɔ/ or /ɒ/ and that's when it would pop up. It doesn't matter

Bianca: It kind of triggers it.

Bianca: yeah.

Mark: Then we would have that glide, that /y/ glide, that the yod would appear instead.

Bianca: Oh, that was what I was wondering. I was wondering if let's say direction mattered if I was going back to front or front to back, and it seems like it does, right? So it seems like if I'm ending a word with a front vowel, I'm probably not gonna get an intrusive R. Would that summarize it, do you think?

Mark: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly,

Bianca:

Ah, excellent. And what other things do you find interesting about either intrusive R or linking R or maybe Rs in general, in the varying accents?

And so the line you could draw between them goes down. Between Northeast, the United States and Canada, and then it goes down sort of the Appalachians and then cross over to Texas. And those regions where. They're non rhotic. It, those regions are becoming smaller and smaller.

Because in RP, of course, they're, that is non-rhotic. You don't pronounce your R. So it's two opposite directions that on

Bianca: yeah.

Mark: Either side of the channel that, that is happening.

So, and, um

Mark: Yeah

Bianca: Like you mentioned in Australia, New Zealand, any of those other places? Perhaps India? I don't know. I don't know anything about other accents and how they feel about that rhoticity, if they're feeling more aspirational or less aspirational.

But the vast majority of people, yeah. Th, they're non-rhotic. So, because most of the populations that went out there were mainly from the southeast of England , which was by the time that they were going out there in the late 1700s, early 1800s, were already majorly non- rhotic anyway.

Why would they pick it up? Yeah. It doesn't make any sense that they would just spontaneously say, oh, let's, there's an R here. Let's start talking about these Rs. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, I mean, when we're talking about the UK, we're only talking about England where the non-rhotic accents are the majority ones.

But there, there seems to be a slight trend in the younger speakers to become less rhotic, but this might be considered like a separate thing. I don't think they're being influenced by RP in this case.

And it may be a short lived . So it's hard.

It's something. It's one to watch .

Bianca: Yes. Wait and see.

Mark: Yeah.

Bianca: We'll see what happens to Rs in the future. Yes. We'll keep an eye on those Rs. Yes.

Mark: But the truth is that at one time, like if you go back to Shakespeare's time, everybody pretty much pronounced their Rs.

So, you know, non-rhotic accents are on the greater scheme of things they're the new kids on the block.

And so I could just say that people in North America are just old-fashioned.

Mark: Exactly. Yeah. I'm sure there's a, there's probably a name for this, some kind of scientific name.

But it's, yeah, a phenomenon where you have colonizers. Yeah. And the ones that that go out there and live in those colonies tend to keep the old fashioned ways and back in the motherland, in the hub, things change at a faster pace.

So this is pretty much what's happened linguistically in in the English speaking world you know, where the original place where English percolated, if you like, England.

Things have moved on a lot faster and there are lots more different accents there.

Mark: Well, I mean. That, that's the other thing to do with empire in a way, is that the attitude that you know, there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

The way of the empire the central unit is, this is how people should sound, right?

This is how people should behave. And which is kind of sad in a way because it's like kills off the variety of accents and cultures.

Bianca: Cause, cause yeah, lot of people don't have an accent. It's this power, it's this prestige, it's control sometimes. And I think sometimes we think that's a thing of the past, but we are all still, we're not immune to the idea of I think this is better, so I want that thing, right? I have this prejudice, I have this bias, and I wanna make some changes because of course, why wouldn't I want to be part of the ruling class or, get that better job or something like that. It seems to be human nature, but sometimes taken at an extreme.

Mark: There are also pressures from accent bias as well, right?

So wherever you live, whatever language you speak, there's always gonna be you know, positive and negative bias.

To different parts, different ways of speaking.

Mark: That really, I think is down to what is considered a prestige. And, what is, cuz the prestige ideas, the concepts of what is prestigious, what is, I don't know what some people might call, correct?

And those certain places are, those are very different, right?

And of course, attached to this also is the concept of identity. So if, identity is important for all of us.

So that is something, that, that affects you and your accent. And different people's accents change at different rates.

Right? So, I mean, I sound more Canadian than my wife does. But we left England exactly at the same, same time

Bianca: Same time. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah. And so that is one to do with identity, so that's why my accent is so inconsistent and all over the place. Sometimes it's rhotic and sometimes it isn't. It's, it's fairly random.

And so that's why they're different.

Bianca: Yeah.

Mark: So then of course, if you start sounding more like a group that you know, you're not, that you're not a part of, then you're considered an outsider.

So, you know, or there's gonna be, there's some strange reason why are you affecting an accent that is not us.

Bianca: Yes.

And are you affecting it or is it, are you being affected essentially, maybe you are going out with your Canadian friends who you've known these 20 years, and maybe if you were to clock it, maybe more Rs would slip out on that day. Versus where you were talking to, I don't know, family on a Skype back home. You could probably clock the same words, but very few Rs that might slip out. That's

Mark: Exactly

And yeah, it makes sense, and I'm sure a lot of people have, let's say a similar split in maybe not even a split in identity, but allegiance perhaps. And there might be some guilt there. You get people who move from one place to another, and then also they have children and they're thinking, you know, do I, do I preserve this?

Do I adopt new ways? What's a good, what's a good balance? How do I feel about it? How is it seen? It's just a really complex issue.

Mark: Yes. And I might add that it's never a good idea to try and preserve your children in terms of telling them this is the right way to say things or this is the right way to pronounce them because you're gonna fail.

So, yeah, you, it, there's always gonna be that difference generation- wise anyway.

Whether you're staying at the same place or not, but yeah,

Bianca: And good. That's healthy. That's like good, that things do not stand still. That, time is not frozen. I feel like the only time that might happen is in some very undesirable circumstance. Some kind of abusive relationship where, the child was kept so isolated that they didn't have the input of other people, and that's not something anybody wants.

Bianca: Yeah.

Mark: They did an experiment because at the time, we're talking like hundreds of years ago.

There was the belief, there was a belief that the original language was Hebrew.

Bianca: Religiously based in. Yeah. All your theories have to Oh yeah. All the theories have to come from there and make sense from there. . .

Yeah.

Mark: So what they did allegedly, I don't know if there, there's no actual, I mean that somebody wrote about it, I dunno how true it is or how apocryphal, but apparently they did have this experiment where they isolated

the child to see if, so that nobody spoke to them and nobody communicated with them, which sounds like a really bad idea.

Bianca: Yeah. And it's, and completely un allowable today. Yes.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Complete. Absolutely. Child abuse. But the idea was to see if they If they ended up speaking Hebrew.

And speaking of religion there, have you ever read this book called Cultish by Amanda Montell?

Mark: I don't think I have.

Bianca: Oh, it's great. You should read it. It's very much about how language is a tool of power to keep control over people. And especially you can picture in religious cults, right?

How that power is necessary. And so when you mentioned that earlier, I thought, oh yeah, I bet I could see in that situation where there's in grouping and out grouping, right? We say this, so you need to speak like this. And that could very much include the, your actual pronunciation, not just the words you choose or the tone you use with members of your group, but also, like, which sounds you make.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I'm sure you also have heard of certain twins that in many cases create their own language between them

Bianca: AH yes. Twin languages

Mark: So that they can communicate just between themselves.

It's not like they sit down and with a book and say, okay, this word means that and that one means this. But they actually naturally grow up together speaking a language that excludes all others outside of just the two of them, which is another interesting concept.

Bianca: Exactly. They don't set out to do that.

I don't even know what they're doing over there. , but this is what we're doing and this is part of our identity. So when you move from one group to the other one, I can see how it's very shocking, you know, to your identity. And you might not know what to do with that cuz there's no handbook. There's no rule book about that.

Mark: And that's also known as slang as well, because a lot of people often say that slang are these informal words, but I'm sorry if they're in the dictionary, they're not slang anymore.

They're informal, because slang is that kind of language that is used or the usage of words that is only used within a closed group.

And are more markers of identity of being a part of that group, as excluding all of. Every, all the others outside of the group.

Bianca: By the time it's in the dictionary you're too late. If I have to, because I'm, I feel like an old lady sometimes, and I don't know what the kids are saying these days.

I'm way too late to the party.

Mark: Yeah. I, unless it's Urban Dictionary, but then, yeah. That's a rabbit hole. You might not want to go down .

Bianca: Exactly. Yeah. Speaking of lack of moderation, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's horrible. But on the other hand, I have get answers I'm looking for pretty quickly or I get an idea at least.

Yeah. It can be helpful in its own way. It has a place in the world, I think. And besides that, I know we're straying very far from the topic, but is there anything else that you wanna add about rhotic versus non-rhotic and maybe how you have changed over time or things that you've just noticed and felt and had reactions about because we're not immune to those things, as we say.

So then my accent became slightly more rhotic, especially when I was talking to people from Bristol. And that again is a natural thing that you tend to start to sound like the people that you like. And the people that you hang out with. So I started to sometimes pronounce my Rs at times and then I moved out from Bristol and then back to London and those Rs disappeared very quickly.

Bianca: Yeah.

Mark: Then sometimes you feel you feel a little bit, I know this is really, seems really weird, but sometimes you feel a bit disappointed in yourself.

Bianca: Oh.

Mark: In that you kinda let yourself slip in a way, or that you sound fake. Oh

and this, yeah it's it's a weird phenomenon that people I read a paper on it and a lot of other people were saying, yeah, same things.

They felt that they were being fake even though they weren't trying to be. And I think it's just a part of not realizing that this is something that has happened to your accent naturally.

And it's more likely to happen to people who are a bit more speech empathetic, right?

Bianca: Ah, yes. Yes.

Mark: So they're more likely talking to other people.

How, not mimicking them in a mocking way?

Bianca: No

Mark: But to sometimes match the same kind of speech patterns as the person they're talking.

So there are a lot of people too.

Bianca: And that's interesting to me too because, we hear our voices inside of our own heads bouncing around in our skulls so often. But most people don't hear recordings of themselves, and particularly they don't have a before and after recording, so they're really only aware of how they sound inside their heads and how other people might respond or treat them or comment on them, too.

Mark: I don't think I guess Toronto is a little bit different from many other places in Canada and throughout North America. I think it probably would be on the same sort of level as other big cities like Chicago, New York, or whatever.

Where it's unlikely that you would get somebody say something oh I love your accent. Or Oh, what an interesting accent, like because in big cities, people just, they hear different accents all the time, and it's not a big deal.

And it's oh, you have an accent. I remember going to a small town in Ontario once and this woman saying, oh, you have an accent? And I said yeah, so do you. She's like, oh no. I don't have an accent. I haven't moved out of Aurora since I was 20. I've got, I'm like, Yeah, you've got an accent.

Bianca: And yet you speak and your mouth is open and you're making noises, and so you have an accent because everybody has an accent.

Yes. And so yeah, yeah. I think that's a really good story because I was forgetting that Toronto is so cosmopolitan, so maybe you wouldn't get those comments. But if you moved to a small place, probably you would get those comments. And how do you deal with those? Sometimes I have I have mixed feelings.

When somebody thinks they're giving you some kind of compliment, then, and you're thinking it's not really a compliment, but you don't know that and I don't wanna insult your intelligence.

Or what a challenge for yourself where you're thinking I'm gonna see if I can work out where you're from and guess it.

Bianca: Yeah. Love it.

Mark: I'm right. For me, it's like a challenge, but I've had to really tone that down because when I first moved out here, you know, in Toronto there's people from so many different parts of the world and so many different accents, really interesting ones. And at first, I, I used to say, oh, so where are you from?

Bianca: Yep.

Mark: Which is oh, you are not one of us.

So who are your people?

Bianca: Yeah.

Mark: And I didn't realize it for quite a while until, the penny dropped, and it clicked and it's like uhoh. Yeah. It sounds like I'm exercising a privilege, which is you are not one of us.

Bianca: Whoever that might be.

Mark: You're not, you don't have the privilege of having grown up speaking English as a first language and you have an exotic sound.

Bianca: And. And I'm not, maybe not even judging you, but I'm studying you and therefore, I'm as the anthropologist I'm studying you.

Mark: Yeah. And so like now I've come to understand that when, certain people have probably been asked that question more often than I have.

And coming from a degree of privilege where I'm a white, cis male, middle class, in a place where, we're a majority

if somebody asks me, oh, where's your accent from? I don't think, okay. They're telling me that I'm an outsider.

I know I'm not an outsider.

This is my home now.

And Sure. I sound a bit different and I'm okay with that. But imagine if you're somebody that's been discriminated against for a long time.

Bianca: Yeah.

Mark: Then, including their accent as a part of that. And then that question can be part of a statement that they're tired of hearing.

Yeah. And to me that signals something as well. And speaking of all the different, let's say all the different encounters that we have, I hear you have a course that's coming up and could you tell us a little bit about that? Because I find it very interesting what you're offering.

Mark: Yeah, sure. I'm offering a course, which it's called Five FF and the, that stands for Five Fridays to Fluency.

Bianca: Oh.

So yeah, it's it's called Five Fridays to Fluency. So it's a couple of hours every Friday. And we do a deep dive. It's like a two hour class.

Bianca: You could add an F to that Five Fabulous or Fantastic.

Mark: Exactly.

I could put extra Fs in there, but that would be swearing If anybody's interested, like if there are any actors out there, that are interested in brushing up on their Australian, you can just go get more information at talklikethat.com/5ff. And that's lowercase Fs.

Bianca: Yeah, and we'll add that link to the show notes. And would that be open to voiceover artists as well, or is it more appropriate for actors on stage?

Mark: Oh yeah! Voiceover artists are actors too.

Yeah, it's open to pretty much any actors. And it's not just for actors who speak English as their first language, because as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter what your first language is, as long as you can speak English fluently.

Everybody is moving to a different accent, whether their first accent's a native one or not.

But it is designed for actors who are committed to learning the process of acquiring different accents for their work.

Bianca: And those skills are gonna be transferrable. And you said the first one, so I'm guessing that you're gonna have multiple courses for different accents.

Bianca: Excellent. Very good. And I, I didn't, can't remember where we met. I think we met on Instagram, but we've also seen each other a few times on Clubhouse.

Are you still doing Clubhouse?

Mark: Yeah, I still pop in there occasionally. Accent Analysts Anomalous.

Bianca: Ah, yes. I knew it was something fabulous like that. You always have the best names for things, and I just, and I love also your social media on Instagram. I just think you have the best reels of anybody. I just love your creativity. I love your, I don't know. Yeah. I love your how, your view on things. Yeah. I really think it's great and I love talking to you every time we get a chance, and I hope we can do it again soon.

Bianca: yes. Meandering down and finding our way back. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I like that. I like talking to people who enjoy that style of conversation too. So we'll have to plan again soon another time to talk. And thanks so much for joining me today.

Mark: Yeah, no worries. All right. Catch you soon. Okay, thanks a lot Bianca.

Bianca: Bye, mark. Speak to soon. See you soon.

Mark: Bye.

Bianca: Bye. Bye.