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Tina: You know what? I've only been on the Gram for probably a year. Okay. You may have seen me on TikTok if you're there. 


Trish: that I started seeing you. 


. Because we were looking at YouTube, trying to branch into there, but like it's a beast. Tina and I were talking. This is no joke, creating this level of content, it is a full time job. 


Tina: Yes, if you're looking into social media, it's amazing, but also it's a beast, like it's full time plus. 


Tina: Oh I should hook myself up with that program because it certainly takes me longer than 15. 


Trish: The thing about it is that I'm, I'm dying laughing because most of those people are teaching other people how to just teach people how to make money, not to have impact like we do. 


Tina: Yeah. Yeah. 


Trish: And no, 


Tina: it's like a whole. community thing. Like it's not just put the stuff out and then let it ride. Yeah, you really got to, yeah, you got to be out there and behind your work. 


Trish: Yes. And I also, in my coaching group, I don't take people who are just like lifestyle influence, not that I'm knocking them, but people who are more educators like we are. 


And that takes a lot of work because you have to make sure what you're putting out there is accurate. 


Yes, 


Trish: and it's such a raw topic what we talk about, like we were saying, so Tina and I were talking beforehand about So we're going to talk about birth trauma today from our perspective and some of the things that we feel can prevent that. So I'd love to just, let's talk about how you got into labor and delivery. 


I, 


Tina: I worked emergency nursing first. But I would, anytime, okay, any emergency nurses that are listening are going to be like, I hate when people come in having a baby. Like they hate it. They don't want anything to do with it, but I always ran to the births. I'm like, I didn't care where I was. As long as my patient wasn't coding, I was going to be in there. 


So travel 


Trish: nursing or ICU 


I just ate my feelings away and yeah, 


Trish: so it was cool, but yeah, I just missed home. I don't know if you know my story, but I have seven children. 


Tina: Oh my God. 


Trish: Yeah. I thought 


Tina: four was 


Trish: a lot. Okay. There's the shock value. And. We've got a whole soccer team happening. They're mostly adults now. I only have two at home. 


So I started very young and ended very old. 


Tina: Yeah. 


Trish: My last one I had at 42 and I was working on a travel assignment in California. My ex husband came to visit me and left behind something a little special. Oh. 


Tina: Perfect. The gift that keeps on coming. He 


Trish: is. He is the best gift. 


Tina: They're breaking the mold from the 1940s. Yeah. The literature from the 1940s about eating and drinking and labor. It was so 


Trish: shocking. And then, I was telling my students the other day that I remember getting in trouble at one travel assignment I just started and I started an IV on a labor patient. 


And they asked me why, what was going on, that she needed it. And I was like she's in labor. And they were like, and? And I don't know about in Canada, but in the U. S. 99 percent of the time, that's part of the admission order. 


Tina: Yeah. Yeah. We do. We do a lot of IVs as well. Yeah. And I have to say 


Trish: heplock. I don't need a long cord. I'll drink my juice. That's what I tell my students as well. If they're open, if they're not fine, as an emergency nurse, we can get one in on a dime, but I do tell my girls too, because I personally, although I've had six unmedicated births, I don't like needles and I don't want anyone messing with me in an emergency. 


I would rather it be there and settled. 


Tina: That's right. Even the best nurse is going to take a little bit. It's going to take a little bit to get it in there, especially if your blood pressure's in your boots. And the best 


Trish: nurse might be busy during an emergency. Whereas if it's calm, the best nurse probably can come in and do it for you. 


Tina: And then the patient will be like, get the doctor to do it. And you're like no. No, you don't. Maybe the anesthesiologist. Yeah. No. 


Trish: Yeah. No. So I, I do tell that, but this one, I actually got reprimanded and I was like, 


Tina: oopsies. So sorry. 


In 2018, the hospital I was working at, they were still taking the baby for two hours to the 


Tina: nursery. 


Trish: Oh, 


Tina: that would be a hard pass for me. I know. 


Trish: No, thank you. I know. Like I just, I couldn't believe it because I hadn't seen that in many years. So anyway, that's Tennessee for you. Wow. Okay. Interesting. 


Yeah. It's so different. And you're in Canada, so there's definitely some differences. So I would love to chat with you and talk to these moms about, they all know what I think and some of my recommendations, but what are you, what do you think are some of the biggest power moves for a mom? 


Tina: Yeah. Or feeling like you, yeah, you were completely in the dark. And I think a lot of people think that birth trauma is like something catastrophic happened, like something terrible happened to the baby, something terrible happened to mom. 


Um, but. I think probably in the majority of, obviously those would leave anybody with trauma from their birth, but I think for the, for a lot of people it's something, it can be something so small that they weren't expecting or like they didn't feel like they were part of the experience even though it ended in a c section or whatever it may be. 


If they had just felt like they were part of that decision that could have changed the outcome for them in the long run and how they view their birth and how they view future births, right? Because we have to remember that like birth trauma, like just, it just floods into the next experience, right? 


Trish: this. 


Tina: Yes. Yes. And I think even like, When I first sit down with patients and I meet them, I tell them the things that I'm going to do for them. I ask them the things that they want me to do for them. But I always say to them if things are going to hit the fan, first of all, I'm going to try to tell you if my spidey senses are tingling before it does, because nothing is worse than the surprise ten people flood into the room and we're like ripping you apart and we're flipping you over and it's what is happening? 


But on the same time I, yeah, I really think that if you know that As a nurse, I'm going to be there for you if that happens, and you can count on me to be at your head of your bed talking to you, explaining to you what's happening, then that can go a long way as a healthcare provider. So I think that people need to know that they have a voice and they should use it and they should make it known. 


Trish: power, no matter what. 


Tina: It doesn't make sense to me why any provider would think that, or a nurse would think that they just don't want to know what's happening. That's, yeah, 


Trish: It happens so often. And I love that. I love a couple of things you said and. We talked about my birth classes and some of the things that make it unique, but another thing that I have in both of the birth classes is a debrief your birth module. 


And all of these things that you planned and hoped for are gone in your mind. So in the VBAC lab, we started working through these triggers because these girls would start having panic attacks at 34 weeks when they're going to that appointment. And so we started working through that. We started working through how it feels for someone to say at least you and baby are healthy. 


Oh, 


Tina: that is my, oh, I did a whole reel on this. Cause I'm just like, wow, my birth trauma is magically cured because you said I'm alive and my baby's alive. Oh, perfect. There's more to it than a healthy mom, healthy baby. 


Trish: Yeah, and it's such a, it's such a horrible thing to say to someone. Yeah. I just that's not all that birth is. 


And I think that I really honestly think that comes from women more than anyone else. Other women saying that. 


Or people like, at least you could have a baby. 


Trish: So I have a whole train of thought. I think that it comes from other traumatized women who had their feelings suppressed. And it's just a line of women throughout the time that had their feelings invalidated. And so they just continue to do it. 


And I think it's going to take a huge change for us to change this for our own daughters. Yeah. 


Tina: Yeah. It's true. It's it's, yeah, it's like birth trauma is so prevalent. I read somewhere it's like up to 50 percent of people experience birth trauma. And we know that, 50 percent of people are not losing their babies in childbirth. 


And I saw this with. I had a patient who was laboring, she had no epidural, she was doing incredible things, she was changing positions, she had this beautiful village of empowering female family members with her, and it was a beautiful room, as soon as I came on, things started to go downhill, the baby was not doing well, it was very evident that the baby needed to come out quickly, and the provider that came on was a female provider, and she even A lot of providers would have just been like, Hey, we're going for a c section, like we gotta get this baby out right now. 


She like sat on the bed, put her hand on the lady's back, said I know that this is not what you want. I'm letting you know that I'm concerned about your baby, but I need you to understand that we believe that a c section is best right now, but we can't force you into a c section. And I want you to have a say in what's going to happen with the birth of your baby. 


And in the scheme of things like that, 15 seconds mattered to her. Like that 15 seconds was important in how she's going to do lifelong and with further babies. That was her first baby. So that's setting her up for success as a parent. Less postpartum depression. It's setting her up for a more positive birthing experience next time. 


We have to think about these things because they matter. 


I don't want to see them go But the things that I have heard that providers have said. And then I have to really go back and check myself and think have I said anything callous like this? But, and that's just a whole nother episode, but I do agree with you and, like I was telling you before, part of the framework in my classes is yes, we have to not give them knowledge. 


And then the other part is being bold to speak up, because it takes a lot of courage on their part. A lot of courage. 


Tina: Yeah. And I think a lot of, I don't know, a lot of people probably just think Oh, if I speak up, then I'm being a nasty person, right? But in quotes, 


Trish: I'm 


Tina: being 


Trish: that 


Tina: person being that patient. 


Yes. But like there, there are ways for you to advocate for yourself and speak up without being that person, just simply being a part of your birth. And I think that is something that. We really need to talk more about and with not just with patients, but with healthcare providers and nurses, because you're, we're, I hope that we're going to start seeing more people speaking up for themselves in these situations, because I want to see a culture change so badly. 


Here's how you receive it. Yes. Here's how they are not attacking you. They are not attacking what you're doing. They're simply trying to be an involved member in their birth experience. And that is their right. They get X number of them in their lifetime. That's what we should want. Yes. Like some people get one, one go at it, right? 


If, 


Trish: yeah. 


Tina: So I think, yeah, how to receive and how to give it would be a really good thing. And you know what? I always say start kind, but firm. That's what I tell people. Be kind, but be firm. Be like I'm in the ring here. Like this is my battle too. And then I said, you can always progress it too. 


A kind firm approach, but if you start kind and firm, there's zero reason why that health care worker should take that in any sort of a negative light, right? No one's attacking what you're doing. They're simply using the knowledge that they have been gathering for 40 or 41 or 42 weeks, and putting it into action to see what they want through to see it come to fruition. 


And that's important. 


Like I am a birth nerd. I went to school to be a labor nurse. I did not want to do anything else. And I love my job. I love my patients, but there were times that I came so burdened by life that it. that it creeped in. I tell my girls, that if they feel like their nurse is not supporting them or being condescending or whatever to approach it like this. 


So I tell them to say, Hey, I am so grateful that you're here today. And I'm so like the job you do is incredible, but I feel like we might not be connecting and maybe you don't you know, maybe you see birth differently but this is my only birth with this baby. And I want it to be this way. 


And then she may ask for another chance and you may bond with her for life. And you know how that can be and hear every update and know that each other, or if she turns around and she gives you attitude, then you know, damn well, you made the right decision. 


Tina: Yeah. 


Trish: Yeah. Because you and I both know those scenarios and there are nurses who I would not want to be my nurse. 


A hundred percent, but they might be great for somebody 


Tina: else who wants that I totally agree. And there are people that don't want the touchy feely, lovey dovey nurse because it's overwhelming for them. And that's fine too, right? It can go either way. It doesn't have to be like, I hate what this nurse is doing. 


Trish: And I tell them too, that as labor nurses, they're going to this is not our birth. 


We're going to go home. This is a job. And if it's affecting them because it's their birth, they need to switch it up. 


Tina: Yep. 


Trish: Agreed. But we're going to go home. if we didn't connect and it wasn't a good balance, we're going to go home. It was a shift. We were working. But for them, it's life changing. 


Tina: Yeah. And we know how important that is because you ask anybody who had a baby and they'll be like, if it's an amazing nurse, they'll remember their name. And if it's a garbage or somebody that like just made the experience crappy, they'll always remember their name. Yeah. So it's yeah, you have an impact. 


It can be one way or another way, but if they'll remember your name if it, if you really, messed up. And a lot of people say I wish I had asked for another nurse. It's 


Like I, my students, cause I do, I, When we're in open enrollment right now, we do what we call five days to fearless birth experience. And we open up the doors to our community. And I teach five workshops. We let them into like our hangouts and stuff. And I always think like this class, there's this one class I teach and I'm like, it's so powerful. 


And then always the feedback is, Oh, I didn't know I could fire my nurse. And I'm like, that is the big thing. It's just, it's so funny, but they don't realize that and they don't know they can fire their doctor. And I'm like, yeah, if you're in the hospital having a baby and you fire your doctor, like they're fired and we have to have someone deliver your baby. 


So you will have a doctor. 


Tina: Yes. 


Important because if they don't, we're going into a place where people are educated. Yep. And they will attack them online. 


Tina: I hope it, yeah, I hope that it, oh man I don't know how long it's going to take, but I hope we see a big culture change because what is happening right now is not, it's not good for women, people, it's not good. 


Yeah. So I, yeah, I really hope that it changes because I would love to see that stat come down. I know that we're never going to solve all of these issues. All birth trauma. We're like, we can never do that. There will always be people that, that have a poor outcome or a bad experience, but 50% 


yeah. Could we have just taken five seconds, 10 seconds. I think about my sister. She told me about her C section. This is before I was a labor and delivery nurse. And she said it was an emergency C section. I was laying in the operating room. Nobody was telling me anything. My husband was outside. 


And then she of course had a repeat C section leading up to it was anxious as all heck because she was like, I don't want to go through that again. It was, and she's like, well, that was a lovely experience. Cause it was like this scheduled, lovely planned thing. But I think about her because she said had no idea what was happening and she said to me, these people see this and do this every single day. 


I had never been in an operating room. I had never had a baby. I had never had a surgery. And I didn't know my baby was alive. Never been a patient. I didn't know. I didn't know my baby was alive. Just being a patient. So if we can remember things like that as healthcare providers, it's like this is, and it goes with vaginal births as well. 


This is, I see this every day. I still get excited sometimes I like forget to, push medications at the right time. Cause I'm like, Oh, that gets me. And then I'm like, Oh, sorry. I didn't push that. Could I do it now? Okay. Good. Yeah. They're like, it's fine. Stick it. It's fine. But yeah, like we see it all the time. 


Tina: and portray ourselves and communicate plays a big role in how that person moves on with their life from that moment. It's like a fork in the road, like they can either have a great experience, even if it ends up in a c section, even if it ends up under general anesthetic, whatever, it could still be a positive experience. 


if you foster that in the right way, I think. I 


Trish: know, I 100 percent and believing and remembering that even though this is our shift at work, and it is our work, that it is a birth experience, no matter which type of birth it is, and it's the only one they get with that baby. 


Tina: Yes. And I always tell them like, take this picture, take this video, because like you'll never, this baby will never be in your tummy again. 


This baby will, it's, yeah. And we, 


She's been hanging out with me. My VBAC came back, the hangout since November of 2020 and one of the things that was so pivotal for her to heal with her repeat C section is she wanted that VBAC so bad. Yes. But she ended up making the decision and went back for a repeat. And the nurse took a picture of the baby coming out of her stomach. 


They sure did. 


Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 


Trish: Yeah. They 


Tina: sure did birth that baby. Yeah. Good for 


Trish: them. Yeah. So that's one of the things that we've added into there to ask for and has been life changing for some of these women, especially my mamas who are having a repeat. Like your sister. Yeah, 


Tina: and I bet they'll cherish that photo of yeah, forever, right? 


It'll be probably their favorite picture of their baby ever taken. 


Trish: Yes. 


Tina: That's amazing. And brings 


Trish: closure and where, because they struggle with this feeling of I, my body doesn't work right. Failed. Yeah. Failed. 


Tina: Mom say that and I'm like, don't say that. Oh my God. You didn't, yeah. Oh, yeah. 


I feel terrible when people say that. I 


Trish: know you have to get to your baby soon. I do. I have one baby that he's picking up at the preschool. And that's, important because that's a different type of trauma. Because my mother left me at school once. And I still remember how I felt. You're like, I remember this 


Tina: forever. 


Trish: And it's so funny. I, we, maybe, like we were saying, maybe we are sisters. That's why we look like, because our mission statement. 


Is changing the birth culture one birth at a time. Oh my God. 


Tina: And it feels like a long road. Yeah. 


Trish: Yeah. But it really is that one birth. 


Tina: It has to be one birth at a time. That's the only way it's going to happen because it's, yeah, it's, we think about how far we've come and how far we have to go, but like you think about how we've come from, twilight births to where we are now like, 


You have to go in [00:28:00] educated and empowered. 


Tina: So important. 


Trish: But it was such a battle because they didn't think that they needed it because they didn't see there was a problem. But at least the girls now, I feel like, see, there is some, there's something, I need something. Yeah. 


Tina: Yeah. Yeah. This preparation is I think, yeah, a big chunk of the battle 


and I just get confidence to be a contributor to your own birth experience, right? Like it's yours, take it, take it and run with it. 


Trish: What's so funny too, really quick before we get off is that I remember even in nursing school, which You know, they teach, yeah, they teach, a long time ago they teach you to avoid lawsuits or whatever is to connect and communicate, but yet they don't do that. 


Tina: Yeah. Yep. Yep. And they teach you, this is how you chart to avoid a lawsuit. Yeah. No, this is how you 


Trish: treat someone as a person. 


Yeah. 


Trish: Yeah. We're very lawsuit happy here, but 


Tina: Yeah, I, yeah, I heard that labor and delivery is one of the highest in the ER. 


Trish: So you've been in both. 


Tina: Gotta love that. We're talking high 


Trish: emotions in both of them. 


Tina: Yes, you could tell that I'm a type A adrenaline junkie based on my career choices. 


Trish: What's so funny is when you were saying you were an ER nurse, so labor nurses typically feel the same way about the ER as the ER feels about labor and delivery. I always laugh because when I would get called down to monitor a patient, I would literally look like I have a hazmat suit on because I do not want to get sick. 


Tina: A hundred percent. And it is nasty. My husband's a physician in eMERGE and yeah, it's it's nasty. I would be like er, coming down. Like on Monsters, Inc. with like just a big blow up. I'm here to check your baby. Oh my god, I have to laugh though because like at our site, it's if you're over 20 weeks, you go to labor and delivery and if you're under 20 weeks, you're treated in eMERGE. 


Yeah. And if they come upstairs with a broken bone or a head injury, they're like, get that. Get out of here, put that back downstairs, we don't want that up here, so it's the battle. No, I, 


Trish: I had someone come up from ER that had a wound dressing, and ER sent her up because she was like 28 and 5 or something, and it was a wound dressing that needed to be. 


Tina: You're like, this has nothing to do with her baby, this is, we, no. I was like, I don't do this. You're like no, this is not, she, no, her baby doesn't need a wound dressing. Baby is good. Listen. Okay. Baby is good. Down you go. 


Trish: I was literally breaking out the old nursing books to like, cause I'm like, I don't know wound care anymore. 


Trish: tell everybody where they can find you. 


So 


Tina: I'm across four platforms. So I'm on TikTok, Instagram. I'm on YouTube and I'm on Instagram. Facebook. YouTube is where I have a lot of long form videos on all sorts of things like flange sizing and increasing your milk supply and prenatal vitamins and eating and drinking and labor. Oh, we could talk about that all day. 


And then my other ones are the shorter videos. So TikTok and 


Trish: Instagram. TINA I am, yes. So it's mama 


Tina: with one M one A and then an underscore and the nurse and that underscore and then 


Trish: Tina. All right. Thank you so much. Go get your baby. Thank you. 


I hope that you learned some things. As always, write a review. Tell me what you thought. I'd love to hear from you. I really value your opinion. And of course, hit subscribe. I will see you again next Friday. Bye for now.