Join host Matt Edmundson on "What's the Story?" as he explores faith and courage with guest Jonathan Lewis, founder of Fathers for Fathers. Discover insights into healthy masculinity, the power of faith, and the journey of overcoming life's challenges. Subscribe for more inspiring stories and visit Crowd Church for a digital sanctuary to explore the Christian faith.

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Timestamps:

0:00 Intro

5:31 Political Climate

11:47 Eternal Perspective

18:54 Trust in God

26:48 Masculine Expectations

35:06 Personal Struggles

43:53 Joy in Trials

50:26 Godly Masculinity

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Key Takeaways:

1. Seek Peace Beyond Material Wealth: Jonathan emphasises the importance of finding peace that transcends material possessions and financial security. He suggests that true peace comes from a deeper spiritual understanding and relationship with God, rather than relying solely on tangible assets.

2. Embrace Humility and Character Building: He highlights humility as a key characteristic of a godly man. Jonathan shares that going through life's challenges with a humble spirit can refine one's character, leading to personal growth and a deeper connection with God.

3. Trust in God's Plan Amidst Life's Trials: Jonathan advises trusting in God's plan, even when life presents significant challenges. He shares personal experiences of hardship and how maintaining faith and trust in God can lead to personal peace and eventual positive outcomes, even if they are not immediately apparent.

Hey there, and welcome to what's a Story? We're

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Church. They would love to connect with you. And

now let's meet your host and our special guest

for today.

Well, I am back with Jonathan Lewis, who has been

on the show before. He's been on what's the

Story? And we had such a great conversation. I

absolutely loved it. And we got talking after we

stopped recording about what he does with Fathers

for Fathers, his ministry to men and his heart

for men. And I'm like, we need to do another

recording and have a conversation specifically

aimed at men, which is what we're going to do.

And ladies, feel free to listen in. You know,

we're definitely not excluding you here, but I do

want to talk. Yeah, absolutely. We do want to

talk to the hearts of men. Now, just in case this

is your first time with us, let me explain.

Jonathan is the president of Eastport Financial

Group. He's author of Deep Water and More Than

Money. He's also, as I say, the founder of

Fathers for Fathers. His More Than Money podcast

explores the stewardships of all our assets. He

is a dedicated husband and father. Lives in Nova

Scotia in Canada, which must be coming up to good

ski season. Jonathan, he's passionate about our

first snow.

A couple nights ago. Matt.

No way. You see, now this is where I start to get

a little bit envious. I'm not going to lie. Are

you a man of the slopes? Do you take to the

slopes?

Yeah, I love skiing, but eastern Canada is not.

Doesn't lend itself as well as western Canada,

but Yeah, no, we'll get out to Banff. For my

favorite hill in Canada is Fernie. It's

relatively unknown. It's on the US border, but

it's four bowls. The mountains are all 12 to

14,000ft. And it's just crazy powder. Like nice

25, 30ft of powder.

See, now I know the Bible talks about envy, and

I'm going to fall into that if I'm not too

careful.

Or you can come visit.

Yeah, yeah, no, for Father's.

Father's conference. You could be one of our

speakers.

I'm there, man. Just tell me where and when I

jump on a plane. It'd be fantastic. Where we. The

show's producer. I don't know if you ever met

Sadaf. Sadaf, who produces this show?

I did, I did.

She's from Canada.

Yeah. We chatted for maybe 10 minutes. She's

like, okay, you need to do this interview with

Matt. He's the guy.

Yeah, yeah. So she's a legend. She actually

hosts. She's. There are three people that now

host this podcast who do interviews, so it's not

just me all the time. Sadaf of them and a

beautiful lady called Anna. So they're. They're

stepping into the realms of doing it all as well.

But she's crazy about Canada. And, yeah, I still

need to go. My cousin lives over in Vancouver. I

mean, I just need to go to Canada. But I have

this quite unrealistic expectation, I think, that

Canada is just covered in snow from, like, this

time for, like, the next four or five months.

Will be in another couple of weeks until probably

April. So it's not that unrealistic. That's why

we all live. Like, was there 40 million

Canadians? I think 39,999,000 of us live right on

the U.S. border. So people say, what are you

doing? Well, I'm going to go south for the

winter. Oh, you're heading down and down to the

border. Yeah, I'm just going to hang out for

myself by the US border, see what Trump's doing.

Exactly.

Come back. So, yeah, in fact, that's one of the

big things that's happened since we last spoke,

is Trump is now President Elect again. Yeah.

Goodness me. It's been a fascinating, tumultuous

few months, I think politically, certainly in the

UK and in the US with all the elections going on.

Yeah, but it's a. It's a funny one, isn't it? I.

I was. My side hustle for better expression. I do

E Commerce, as you know, and I was asked this

question, you know, about how, how the

presidential elections would affect E commerce

sales. And obviously what we saw was mass

uncertainty. Mass uncertainty means you spend

less money. And so consumer confidence fell and

sales fell and it's interesting, isn't it? This

time of uncertainty. I almost think it brings out

the worst in people sometimes. I don't know if

you've seen this or maybe it's just me.

No, I think it's interesting. It's a good place

to start actually because we're going to talk

about men and you know, what is, what is a non

toxic male look like? What is healthy

masculinity? I think one of them is that there's,

the guy's got peace. And so right now people

don't have a lot of peace. Yeah, there's a lot

happening and which is interesting is John even

warns us and Jesus warned us like read the Times,

like there'll be rumors of war and all these

things will be happening. And he says, you know,

don't worry. Right. And so you know, like you're

in E commerce. I manage money for a living. I've

done it for 20, 24 years. And I find it

remarkable how people will put their trust in

something that is very non tangible, that can buy

tangible things that ultimately aren't even

tangible because you can't take it with you. Like

the pharaohs tried.

Yeah.

And so it's like what, what, what really, what

really is tangible? Right. And I think about

like, like I haven't always been a Christian,

like I grew up in a cultural Christian

environment but I, I was 34, I'm 48 now. So 14

years ago I think I got to a place and this might

be some of the guys listening where I was just

like I want something real, I want truth. And I

just don't feel like I'm finding it anywhere. And

the world just seems like it's totally chaotic

and I just didn't want to be a cynic. I think you

can become a cynic. But I'm a naturally just a

really happy, optimistic person. I was like, well

I don't want to be a cynic so I want to be happy.

But to be happy I've got to have some confidence

that has deeper roots than my savings, my house

and if I'm debt free. Yeah, especially when you

got, you know, Trump boasting that he's got a

bigger red button than Kim and his works. Right.

It's like oh my dear God help me. So yeah, so I

want, I think I just, I wanted Something more

transcendent, where I had some peace. And so it

dawned on me during this pilgrimage and we talked

about just that journey of sanctification where

there's, there's really only two things that I

would argue for the guys listening that last

forever. The first one is probably easier for you

to accept, and that is your soul. So every one of

us, I believe, is a spiritual being and we have a

soul that is going to live these. I call it the

meat sack. Some of us have really nice meat

sacks. I'm a pasty 48 year old white Canadian guy

with my wife literally says, you got to cover

that backside up. You can't. Like, she puts on

sunglasses when I walk in the shower. So, so

these meat sacks aren't going anywhere other than

into the grave. And then it's like, okay, well

what happens to, to Jonathan, like the soul that

resides inside this body? And, and I believe

they're going to live forever. And so the

question then invariably is, is, well, there's

all these religions in the world and every one of

them tells me I have to do something to earn

God's favorite. And only one of them tells me I

don't have to do anything except, except accept

it. And it's a free gift that I didn't earn. And

it's this person saying, I want to have a

relationship with your soul that he's arguing he

created. And it's because he, and he gave me this

free will. He gave me the autonomy to choose

whatever I want. And I can choose to be with him

or and explore this relationship with him that he

wants to go on eternally, or I can choose to

ignore that and you know, like the late Billy

Graham, and I think just about everybody around

the world knows Billy Graham. But like, I heard

him preaching a sermon and it really hit me. He

said, you know, hell is a real place and it

wasn't created for us.

That's true.

It was created for Satan and his angels that

rejected and rebelled against God. That's what it

was created for. And so he said, it wasn't made

for us, Ben. It wasn't made for our wives and our

children. It was made for those that rebel

against him. And so he's saying, I'm giving you a

free will because I don't want a relationship

with a robot. Right. Elon Musk has got his

optimus threes out now. I don't know if you saw

that, but $20,000 US I don't know what that is in

British pounds. Like 15,000. Yeah.

About maybe 16, 17, somewhere around there.

Yeah. Wow. You guys gotta get the pound rocking

and rolling again.

Tell me about it. Yeah, yeah.

But, like, so let's say £16,000, and you. You can

have an Optimus 3 that only needs to charge for

an hour a day. It'll cook, clean, do the yard

work. I'm thinking, my gosh, we're there, right?

But here's what the Optimus 3 doesn't have. It

doesn't have a soul. And it's going to do

whatever we ask it to do because it has no free

will. And I just think how amazing that we were

created. And God said, I'm going to give you an

eternal soul, and I'm going to let you choose to

accept me or reject me. And then the other thing

that is eternal, he said, is my word. Right?

That's. That's the other thing that will last

forever. And. And so there's a missionary that in

Christian circles a lot of people would know.

And, you know, he was in South America, and he

literally is noted for saying. And you would know

him. It's Jim Elliott. And it's my favorite Jim

Elliott quote, he said, he's no fool who gives up

that which he cannot keep to gain that which he

cannot lose. And so, you know, I think, you know,

every. Every guy listening, if you're not a

Christian, you gotta really ask yourself, what is

this all about?

Yeah.

You know, like. Like right now, Americans are

like, trump's back. They just. I don't know if

you noticed, but they won the Congress last

night, so they got in a congressional system.

They now have the president, the Senate and the

Congress. The last time that happened was 25

years ago under Bush Jr. And so he literally can,

like, change laws and run them through the

Senate, or the Senate is the executive branch,

run them through Congress with little to no

resistance. Like. And so, you know, there's a lot

of Americans that are really excited about that,

and there's a lot of Americans that are petrified

of that.

Yeah.

And it would have been the other way if Kamala

had a one. There would be a couple hundred

million Americans that were excited about that,

and a couple hundred million Americans who would

have been like, oh, my gosh, doomed. And. And

it's like, when you look at what's going on in

the world stage with Israel and the conflict in

the Middle east and Ukraine, and, I mean, my God,

now North Korea is sending troops to. To Belarus.

Right. It's like, where does this all end? And,

you know, God said in the Bible that it's going

to end when I send my son back to get you guys.

And he already came to remediate, you know, that

which you cannot remediate, which is sin. And,

and this was actually a big thing for me in my,

my journey. Matt was like. It dawned on me that

every single living thing on the planet seems to

have a place in the, in the, in the chain of life

and it's edifying. And you know, even if it's a

lion killing an animal in the herd and the, you

know, Saharan, you know, the, the plains of

Africa, there's a purpose in it and, but there's

no animal on the planet that destroys its own

environment and each other on mass.

Yeah.

Like only a virus does that actually destroys its

own host. And so obviously the cynics and, and

the atheists and people would say, oh well, you

know, humans are, we're like, we're like a

parasite. Right. We just destroy our own host.

And I mean there's no shortage of Marvel movies

and you know, doomsday apocalyptic things where

it's like, you know, and then we've got Bill

Gates who just wants to vaccinate all of us and

prevent our ability to have children. At least

some people say so. But at the end of the day I

sit here and think, okay, so what? Why are we

like that? And the only thing I could come up

with when I was in my 30s was well, sin. Like we

have this carnal nature botus that's selfish.

Yeah. That's self destructive. That we put

ourselves ahead of others. Like, it's like we

literally come into this world wanting what we

want and we don't care what it does to others or

who it hurts or what it hurts or how it hurts the

planet. And really you can draw a line and say,

well, it's not like we're not like a virus that

destroys its host, we're just sinful.

Yeah.

And so that was a, that's a tough one. Like to

say to you, you are sinful and you can't even

help it. Like you don't even have a way to

remediate it. Like some guys have already turned

us off, but the ones that are sticking around,

yay you. But it's okay because one of the

greatest early church leaders who wrote 2/3 of

the New Testament, which is the books written

after Jesus, including Jesus life, was the

apostle Paul. And he wrote a manifesto, if you

will, when he was under house arrest in Rome

waiting to see Caesar. So he's literally appealed

all the Way to the highest courts, because he's a

Roman citizen. And he's like, I want to see

Caesar. And he's going to share the gospel with

the most powerful man in the world. And he's

either going to convert him or get the ax. And we

know it didn't go so well, but while he was

waiting to see him, he wrote this book. And in

the book, he wrestles with basically the first

bunch of chapters, like, what's wrong with us?

The same as what I'm doing here. Then he's like,

well, this is the solution. And it was Jesus,

this guy who claimed to be the son of God. So

he's either crazy, a liar, or he was who he said

he was. So everybody, like, you owe it to

yourself to go and figure out, was he out of his

mind? Was he a liar, or was he who he said he

was? I settled on Jesus Christ was the most

gutsiest guy who's ever lived on the planet.

That's where I landed. It took me a few years to

get there, but in the end, I was like, holy cow,

this guy had guts.

Yeah.

And it's because he was who he said he was.

Yeah.

And he was here for a purpose. But Paul basically

says, you got a problem. Jesus is a solution. And

then here's how you go and live that out. And

even Paul says in Romans 7:15, he says, I don't

know what's wrong with me, even though I know the

truth and I've accepted it and I believe it, I

don't do what I want to do.

Yep.

I sin.

Yep.

Despite myself. And then when I want to do

something good, I don't do it. I do something

bad. And this is like, literally the guy who led

the early church and was like. We told him as,

like, the man's man of the early church, and he

did some incredible stuff. I mean, they hated

what he was saying. So if you want to turn this

podcast off, go ahead. I mean, they threw him off

a wall. He jumped up, ran right back into the

city and grabbed the mic, went, I'm not finished.

Right. I mean, you want to talk about another

gutsy guy? But even then, he said, I can't shake

this flesh, this fleshiness of who I am. But then

later on, he says, but you're okay, because

there's no condemnation for those that. That take

that free will that God gave us and say, I want

to. I want to know God. I want to. I want to

explore this. And by the way, you don't have to

have it. Figured out God loves when you just say,

I just want to know more. Like, that's actually

what excites him. Yeah, right as it's like, hey,

this guy just wants a second date with me, man.

That's awesome. Right? That's how God feels. And

then Paul says in Romans 8, for as many as are

led by the spirit of God, these are the sons of

God. For you did not receive the spirit of

bondage again to fear, but you received the

spirit of adoption. By whom we cry, Abba, Father.

And so, you know, fathers for fathers, and the

heart that I have for men. And I know you do. Is

it really comes down to that is if this is true,

if God created us to have souls that are going to

live forever, and he's just. And he has to do

something about the devil and his cronies. So

he's got that sorted. But he gave us each a free

will to choose to have that second date and say

no to our flesh and say, I just. I want something

real. I want something more. I want something

that's based in some truth that is transcendent

and timeless and doesn't depend on a war in

Ukraine or my bank account or what Trump does or

Kamala does. I don't know. Who. Who's your. I

know you guys got some drama going on.

Kiss, Donald. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. Or, you know, a guy with even better hair

than mine, Justin Trudeau. So. So at the end of

the day, it's like, do I really want to put my

stock in people, flawed people, or do I actually

want to explore this guy who says, hey, like, I

knew you before time, I counted your hairs on

your head. You know, Psalm 139, and the Bible

says you were fearfully and wonderfully made. So

for the guys listening, I mean, I would just

implore you to not take anybody's word for it.

Just trust your instinct. As a matter of fact, if

this is making you angry, that's probably a good

thing, because it's actually your flesh sort of

raging against it. And here's a zinger. If you

haven't turned me off yet, this will kill it. You

actually are made for one purpose, and it's to

glorify God. So it's not even about you. Your

whole existence the same as the flowers in the

field and the beautiful sunrise is all about

glorifying him. That is so offensive to our

flesh. Yeah, like. Like everything in us just

rages against that. I remember the first time I

heard that. I was like, oh, my gosh like, I'm

out. I'm not coming back. I'm not coming back to

this stupid church. And then. And the next

Sunday, I walked in, I sat at the back again, and

I. Like, Matt, I. I don't know what you guys call

it, but, like, I call it Sinner's Row. Like the

very back pew against the wall.

Yeah.

Like, because I want to see all these crazy holy

rollers coming. So if I have to, like, you know,

feign a right and go left to get out of their

clutches, you know, with their, you know,

sandwiches with no crust, they're board games.

And Jesus loves you. And so I literally, for

like, seven or eight years, sat in the back row

of this little rural Baptist church here, like,

near where we live. And, like, as soon as they

started, like, you know, when they start wrapping

up the service.

Yeah.

And, you know, the pastor's gonna do the whole,

you know, I'm gonna go to the door and shake your

hand on the way out. Like, they. Maybe they don't

do that in the uk, but they still do that here.

Yeah.

So. But you know how you can do the. I gotta go

to the bathroom and I'll go out the back door

kind of.

Yeah, yeah.

And you don't park in the parking lot. Right. You

park across the street because you gotta make a

fast getaway.

Yeah.

So, like, like, that was me, but I. But I wanted.

I wanted to know more. I wanted to know what Jim

Elliot meant by, you're no fool. Who gives up

that which you can't keep. It's like, well, what

can I keep? What's all of this? It's even this.

To gain something that you can't lose. It's like,

well, doesn't make sense to me. Like, what. What.

What will I always have, even in eternity? And

it's my soul. It's me.

Yep.

And what's. What's scary? And I don't want to

scare anybody, but the Bible says that if you

choose not to pursue a relationship with God and

you don't get to know his son, then there's a

place for Satan and his cronies. But it says

there'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth there.

And I spent a lot of time thinking about that. I

thought, weeping and gnashing of teeth, well,

those are like two different camps. And it dawned

on me the weeping are the people that heard a

podcast like this or heard the truth and rejected

it. It's like, no, it's too like sci fi. I'd

rather just watch Marvel movies and believe in

Iron Man. And then there's the Nashers. The

Nashers are the ones that are. They're still

angry even in turn, they're still waving their

fist at God.

Yeah.

And they got a hatred on for him that like, wow.

But I. My heart breaks for the weepers, the ones

that kind of, they heard the truth, they said,

yeah, you know, maybe I'll get around to it. Or

they passively explored it, but they didn't

really pursue it. Life got the better of them.

And those are the people that I really feel a

burden for.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's all the introduction.

Yeah.

Which is great. What do you think it is? You

know, we start off talking about peace and

actually, you know, one of the great gifts I

think God gives us is this undescribable peace. I

think scripture calls it, doesn't it? This sort

of peace which passes all understanding depending

on which translation you read. And it guards our

hearts and it guards our minds. And I think about

the current culture you talked about how, you

know, we as men, we don't have to have it all

figured out. You know, you just, you can come to

God, you don't need it all figured out. But at

the same time, we live in a culture where I think.

For.

Men, we feel like we have to have it all figured

out. I don't know if that. Again, that's just me.

But is that, is, is that something that is innate

in us, do you think? Is that something that we

have learned, I guess, through our lives, through

the way that we are? I think it takes a lot to

admit that you don't know everything. I mean, age

I think is probably one of them. You know, when I

was in my early 20s, I. I knew I was.

Knew you had it figured out.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day,

right. About his son. So he was talking about his

son and his son was like 19 years old. And he

said, he just doesn't listen to me. This was his

complaint. He's not listening to a word I'm

saying about this particular thing. And I looked

at him and I said, and what part of you is

actually surprised? And he said, well, what do

you mean? I said, well, when you were 19, can I

ask you a question? Did you know more than your

parents? And he said, yes, of course I did. And

I'm like, why do you think your 19 year old son

is going to be any different? Right, of course.

But as you get older, I think you realize, you

know, less and less really. But it's an

interesting one, isn't it, that is this innate in

us as men? Is it a pure masculine thing? Is it.

I'm curious where you stand on it.

I don't know. Like, you know, the more I try and

understand the masculine journey, I feel like

there's so much in common between men and women

that it's. We're not as different as we like to

think we are now. We are definitely different. My

wife will attest to that. But, yeah, we'll just

speak to the guy side of this. So I think as

guys, whether it's our culture, our family

dynamics, you know, the environment we grew up

in, but it does seem to be a global thing, and

that there's an expectation that we are fixers.

We will fix it. We want to fix it. We are more

hardwired. You know, when you think about fight

or flight, I think most guys fall into fight, not

all. And so, you know, even the ones that would

be fleers would be like, well, there's got to be

a way to fix this. So they might want to withdraw

from the conflict to figure out a way to solve

the problem. But we tend to be fixers, right? And

so I think that I know for me, like, I can really

move at a high frequency. I'm used to doing a

lot, and I'm used to getting a lot done, and I'm

used to having a lot of very talented people

around me that I can lean on that are also very

good. And so I get disappointed when we hit a

ceiling of complexity and everybody's like, jay,

we just can't take any more on. I'm like, what?

Right, what? They all make fun of me. That's

apparently my reaction is, what? But as if. I'm

just completely shocked. What do you mean? We've

hit a max capacity.

What?

But I think guys are naturally wired to want to

fix it. But I also think, like, I know with my

wife, she kind of wants to know that I. I have a

plan, and it gives her some solace if she knows I

have a plan. And that's not. That's not the

dynamic of every household. And I'm certainly

keenly aware of that. So. But. But I know for me,

just speaking to the guys, when I wrote More than

Money and I did a whole podcast on this, although

my. My guest wasn't that that stellar on time. We

talked about time, and then he went like, on

forever, and we never talked about time. But.

But. So I might have to cir around and do another

interview on Stewarding time. But. But there's

only 168 hours in a week. It doesn't matter if

you're in Gulu, Uganda, Liverpool, Halifax, Nova

Scotia, New York City, Tokyo. We all got 168

hours. Like, how interesting, right?

Yeah.

Nobody gets more, nobody gets less. Doesn't

matter if you're rich or poor. And. And we don't

even know if we get the 168 hours because we

actually aren't even in control of our lives.

Yeah.

And that these bodies will eventually fail us,

and we don't know when. So I think acknowledging

where you are in the pecking order, which is we

are a finite being with only 168 hours. And I

always of the mindset, if God's willing, and in

his grace, I have. Because I don't know if I have

the next hour after this podcast. I hope I do.

So, and then I. I get to a place where I'm like,

okay, well, I sleep for 50. Hopefully, as you get

older, that seems to get harder. It's more trips

to the bathroom. And then. And then we work for,

say, 50. So it leaves me with 68 hours. Well,

what could I. And really, in my arrogance, in my

pride, what can I actually accomplish in 68

hours? Like, not a lot, Right. By the time I eat,

try and get some exercise, be present in, you

know, the lives of the people that matter most to

me, you know, you start working backwards there.

The time ticks down. And so I. I know I got to a

place where I was like, okay, well, if I believe

that God is before time, outside of time, he

says, I am the beginning, the end, the alpha, the

omega. He's not even constrained by time. Right.

Like, we have a hard time understanding God

because we're linear in our thought process. And,

and I. And I trust that what he says is. Is like,

I actually care about you. Like, Like, I. I, in

all my omnipotence, I love you. And I actually

counted the hair on each guy listening to this

podcast. And woman, it's like he says, a sparrow

doesn't fall from the sky without me knowing. I'm

thinking, okay, well, if. If that's the case,

what pressure do I actually really have on me?

Like, do I have to do this with the 68 hours I

have? Or is it more important that I'm sort of

looking to him and saying, hey, what would you

have me do here? Like, if we're friends, which I

understand is what you're telling me we are, and

you sent your son to die On a cross for me,

because I couldn't solve this flesh issue I have.

I kind of need to know what you want me to do

right now. And I don't feel like I should be

stressed or worried or not have peace in my heart

if I really trust that you are who you say you

are. And so it's not to say that I live this out

perfectly. There's highs and lows, right? Because

let's not forget there's that crony with, you

know, a third of heaven that, like, hates God and

he hates us. And if you go down this pilgrimage

where you start trying to get to know God better,

you'll definitely experience some things that

you're like, wow, these guys sold me a bill of

goods I don't sign up for. Johnny Cash said,

being a Christian takes guts and it's not easy

and it's not for every man.

That's so true.

And I think it's true.

Don't you think that we've made it? Let me

clarify what I was going to say, because I've

been a Christian 30 years, right? Yeah, just over

30 years. I became a Christian when I was 18 and

I. And when I became a Christian, there was a

high. It was a high call, right? You. You

understood that when you became a Christian, you

had to lay down your cross. And there was these

conversations. Sorry, you had to pick up your

cross. You know, you lay down your life, this was

going to be something that cost you. It's a bit

like the old Shackleton kind of ad. You know, we

want explorers, we want adventurers. It's going

to be long hours, it's going to be cold. It's

going to be an adventure, and you're probably

going to die. And, you know, men sign up for that

kind of thing, don't they? And it's. It's that

call to adventure, but that call to a tough

adventure, it's going to take goods. And then we

kind of went through the 90s where it was,

doesn't matter what your problem is, come to

Jesus, he'll solve it kind of a thing. You know,

the challenge was Jesus in a lamp.

Yeah, Jesus in a lamp. Tell him your wishes.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Just,

you know, and he'll fix it and.

Because he loves you.

Yeah, because. And I get that. I get why that

would be a phrase. But it became almost easier to

talk about the easy Jesus, and we stopped talking

about, actually, God is going to take your life.

He is going to shake you upside one. One side and

down the other. And he is going to love you. He

is going to create you in his image, and he is

going to have some adventures for you, but you

are going to have to dig deep.

Yeah. Here's some basic premises. If you accept

the fact that our bodies are going to die, right?

And this is a fallen world with all kinds of

brokenness. And even if a whole bunch of people

said, yeah, okay, I believe in Jesus, there's a

whole bunch of people that don't. So you're going

to have wickedness, you're going to have all

kinds of terrible things happen. You're going to

have men raping women, countries attacking

countries. Hopefully not Kim with his little red

button going against Trump with his big red

button. But like, like, wars are going to happen.

People are going to get murdered. And so then

it's like, okay, well, how do I live in that as

this follower of Jesus? And what is the, you

know, Jesus in a lamp do for me?

Yeah.

And I really got to a place where it's like,

okay, Adam and Eve chose to eat the tree of the

good, knowledge of good and evil, and they made a

choice for all of us, you know, is what the Bible

tells us that now we're all stricken with. So I'm

choosing to reject that moment in my own life

where it's like, okay, Lord, I don't want to lean

on my own understanding. I want to understand the

way you see the world and the way you see me and

my place in it. But here's the thing. He doesn't

promise that after that, it's roses and sunshine

and Christians are going to walk around, like,

with pixie birds coming out of their hair. It's

like, you know, sunflowers and, you know,

Skippity Lou. Like, he's like, no, you're going

to live in this fallen, broken world and you are

going to be my light to it. So what does that

look like? Well, you know, in my life, I had a

grandfather who was a World War II vet. He fought

under Montgomery, actually, because he signed up

with the British Fusiliers in Vancouver, who then

deployed under Montgomery in Africa, Italy, and

Operation Martin Guard. He came home an

alcoholic. My. My great uncle would go visit him

in the brig whenever he went to visit him because

he was always fighting. Alcohol became the way he

coped with PTSD from all the conflict he saw. He

saw his entire platoon wiped out by one Italian

tank in the Italian campaign. So then he brought

that into the home with my grandmother and my dad

and his two brothers, where they were all Abused.

And. And then my dad. I grew up with a dad who

was like, well, I'm never going to drink like my

dad. But he still struggled with that abusive

nature.

Yeah.

So he was verbally abusive and sometimes

physically abusive. I love my dad. Like any young

boy, I just longed for his approval. I think

that's something that men have in our DNA. We

long for the approval of a male role model. I

believe that's actually written in our spiritual

DNA to long for God's approval. That's why we're

that way. Our father, son. Relationships that we

have is God giving us that experience to model

after. Except very often they're broken, damaged.

We become damaged. So then we have this tainted

idea of what God the father, what a relationship

with a heavenly father would look like, because

we didn't have a good one down here. My dad

drowned. Him and I were scuba diving just after

my 15th birthday. I dragged his dead body from

the Atlantic Ocean to the beach. I went through a

season of homelessness, couch surfing, living in

my car. Lived in the Rocky Mountains, you know,

planting trees. Joined the Canadian armed Forces.

Learned how to drink. Probably was what kept me

out of jail. Had a stepdad who came into our

home, who's a good man, but there was no place

for me in that home, you know, had a hate on for

God. Was like, if it's meant to be, it's up to

me. Went out to prove myself, you know, Made my

first million dollars by the time I was like 25,

26 years old in my anger. Messed up a wonderful

relationship with my high school sweetheart

because I was just angry at the world and

damaged, you know, that led to a marriage that

ended in divorce with two little girls that were

three and two at the time. And she was unhappy,

didn't want, you know, to be in the marriage.

And. And it just goes on and on. Even now, in the

past six months, we've had a car get washed away

in a flood. We got a new car. We had it for six

days. It still had the original tank of gas. My

wife got creamed by a guy doing 110km an hour.

She's still suffering from a concussion. I've had

skin cancer. And, you know, four months ago, my

business was overdrawn and I was two weeks away

from wondering how I was going to make payroll

because I'm trying to grow, growing so fast. So,

so. And like, you can fill in all the other drama

that goes in there. That's just like Jonathan's

life in a nutshell. And it's like, okay, like,

how can this guy actually like be at peace and

trust God? Well, it's, it's simple. He's not

Jesus in a lamb. He didn't promise that it was

gonna, he was going to take away all the woes and

hardships. Here's what he said. He said, I will

take your entire narrative of your life and if

you trust me with it, I will even all the bad

stuff, I will work it for good, for my glory, and

I'll work it for good for you. But you got to

trust me. And so it's a really funny thing

because it's like, how do you trust a God you

cannot see and trust that some guy who walked

around for three years 2,000 years ago and

disrupted the status quo of both the political

environment and the religious environment? So

they nailed them across. And, and then somehow,

for 2,000 years, billions of people have staked

their eternal hope on this guy. And it's like,

you get to a point where you're like, okay, all

this hardship, all this difficulty that every one

of us has in our life, and I'm just one. If

ultimately I'm his and I trust him, then does it

really matter in the grand scheme of things? And

so I'll give you an example, you know, when, when

I went through a season two years ago where our

teenage daughters were like, hey, we just, we

don't want to, we don't want to be with you and

Sarah, right? So Sarah and I have been married 11

years now. She's an amazing woman. We want to

live with mom. It was crushing. And I remember

fasting and praying, saying, lord, like, I've

signed up for everything, but I can't survive

this. Like, I've been fatherless. I don't know

how my kids would want to be fatherless. How can

you allow this to happen? I've done everything

you've asked me to do. I've stayed in her

hometown just a few doors down from my ex in laws

for my kids, and now they're just ditching me.

And you know what he said to me? All I got on the

winds of the spirit was, do you trust me? That

was it. I was so ticked off. I was like, I was

looking for a little more than that. And it was,

do you trust me? And it was, do you trust me? And

do you believe that I love those kids more than

you do? And is this about you and them or about

them and me? Like, is it more important to you

that they know me, or is it more important that

they come back to you, like, what are you praying

for here? Because if you really believe what you

say you believe, which is you have an eternal

soul that's going to live on forever, as do they.

Isn't it more important that they know me?

Shouldn't you be interceding and praying that?

So, you know, when you and I were talking earlier

about it's not for the weak of heart, living in

this world is not for the faint of heart. It's

tough. That's why people become bitter and

cynical and they hate Christians. And, you know,

they're like your God. You know, if your God is

real, then why does he allow all this to happen?

Well, he doesn't want this to happen.

It.

We chose this for ourselves. But what he promises

is he will walk through the storm with us and he

will deliver us out of it. And so the problem we

have as humans is there's something very

transcendent to our lives, and it's not the 70 or

80 years that we are here. Right? Like, we're

gonna. We're literally going to head into

eternity and realize that when he says, you are

about a vapor, like, really, our life here was a

vapor. And the only real question is, is do we

trust him? And do we have the peace that comes

from knowing that this is all just temporal? And,

you know, someone. People say to me all the time,

well, don't worry, your kids will come back. I'm

like, well, I know that. Like, maybe it makes you

feel better to say that because it's the cliche

thing to say, but I actually know my kids are

coming back because I know my father and I know

his word. And. And he is pursuing them, right?

I'm pursuing them, but I can't do near what he

can do to pursue them. And they're coming back.

And it's not because of me, it's because of him.

And it's for him. Right? He'll finish what he

started. He says he'll leave the 99 to go get the

one last sheet.

Yeah.

And so our. My only responsibility is to walk

that out and have that peace, have that trust.

And by the way, when I was two weeks away, I hope

none of my employees watch this. I was two weeks

away from not being able to make my payroll in

June. I was like, lord, what gives? And he's

like, well, I want you to rest. And you're

striving. You're actually trying in your ego and

your Pride with the 68 hours you have, you're

trying to make this Happen, and I'm going to do

it. And so I actually want you to take time off.

And so I took time off. And we went from being

overdraft to having double what we needed in four

weeks from June 4th to July 4th. And I know it

was just the Lord's way of sort of just showing

off a bit. And that wasn't Jesus in a lamp. That

was a son being submitted to a father's authority

and saying, okay, I trust you. And the thing is,

sometimes it doesn't go good. And you're like,

okay, has he abandoned me? But even then, it's

like, I know he's building my character. Like you

look at the story of Job. I mean, I can't even

imagine when that first messenger came to Job. In

the story of Job, the house collapse on his

oldest son's house with all of his kids in it.

And guy comes in, he's like, house collapse, all

your kids are dead. And then it's just messenger

after messenger. Yeah. Of all the horrific things

that happen. And Job cursed the day that he was

born, but he never cursed God. I don't know if

you ever really noticed that.

Yeah, yeah.

And he actually said, though, you slay me yet,

will I trust you in job 1315. And I think that

that's really the peace comes from getting to a

place where your view of God is such that you

know in his sovereignty that he does love you.

And whatever's happening, even if it seems

horrific, if you give him time, something

miraculous, it will transpire in your life and

you might not even see it until we've died and

gone into eternity. Which for a non Christian is

like, what? Who cares? I'm dead. But it's like

you're not. Your body is dead, but your soul is

going to go on for thousands of years.

Yep.

So that's where the peace comes from. Yeah.

Well, there's a. And there's a joy in that, isn't

there? And this is, I think, where joy comes from

is when actually, you know, you talk about joy in

having a joy in life. It's not a. It's not

burying your head in the sand. It's not

pretending that things aren't actually going on.

It's knowing that in spite of them, God is

ultimately going to win. And there's a joy that

comes from that. So in the midst. And Scripture

talks about this, doesn't it? In terms of. In the

midst of the trial, in terms of the midst of

tribulation, we can count it all. Joy. When we

get into these things.

Because James 1, verse 2.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Jesus. Own brother said that, and he mocked

Jesus. He's like, oh, come on. Like, I grew up in

the same house as you. Yeah, right. And then he.

He put. He writes those words, and he becomes a

leader of the most persecuted church of his day

in Jerusalem. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It doesn't end well for James either. But it's.

No, it's one of those where it's like, can it all

join? You kind of look at that and go. That does

not make sense from a natural standpoint. But

when we look at the beginning to end in the

context of eternity, in the context of the

fullness of God, you're like, okay, this changes

everything. You know, I was at a wedding the

other day with my wife Sharon, and I. We went to

a friend's wedding. Beautiful ceremony. Now,

Tony, when he got. He got married a number of

years ago to his first wife, Ruth. And Ruth died

of cancer. Everyone was praying for. Everyone

loved Ruth. Ruth was an absolute legend, Just one

of the loveliest people on the planet. But she.

And, you know, I've seen God heal all kinds of

crazy things. So everyone was praying for. And.

But she was. And she. Until her last breath, she

was like, no, God can heal me. I know that. But

if he doesn't, then. And they made a whole bunch

of plans. Tony met one of Ruth's friends from

university who lost her husband early. He died.

And so those two got together out of grief. They

fall in love at first sight. And I went to their

wedding. So I've been to both Tony's weddings and

the second wedding a few weeks ago. Everyone's in

bits. Everyone's in tears because we're so happy

in some respects, for Tony. And, you know,

there's some redemption that's come out of this

sadness. And at that. It was at that. It took him

several minutes to say it, actually, in the vows

to say, till death is dupont. Because for him,

that's. That's real.

He knows what that means.

He knows exactly what that means. He has been

through the coalface. And you know what? They

both have. And they're both sweet and lovely

people, and they are still so committed to God,

and they're very much like, I don't understand

it. I don't. You know, you can't. I can't give

you rhyme or reason, but I can tell you God is

with me.

And here's how God ties a bow on that, right? So

here are these two people that have this tragic

loss. They, by way of restoration come to each

other under God and God can take their. Like I

always say, there's no testimony over the test.

Yeah, testimony. And think about how that couple

can be a force of nature for people going through

similar difficulties and loss going forward. Just

like even for young couples. Like, I mean, what.

I don't know what divorce rates are in the UK but

in North America, where pushing 58%, I mean, why

even bother getting married?

Yeah.

Right. Well, actually they charge you to change

your last name to your husband's name because

they're so sick and tired of changing it back.

I'm not kidding. So. So, but. But think about

what a powerhouse couple they would be for young

people in counseling when it comes to sticking to

their vows and recognizing that their vow is not

just between the two of them, but it's actually

much more importantly between them and God. And

it's a triangle with God at the top of it. Sarah

and I talk about that all the time. Like, you

know, like with her health issues she's having

with her concussion, it has been hard and it's

been since April and she can't work. Right. So

that puts pressure on us as a couple. But from.

For both of us, I know where we're at. It's like,

okay, well, this vow is. Was between Sarah and

God and Jonathan and God, and then it's between

Sarah and Jonathan. And so, you know, imagine a

couple like that counseling young couples around

the nuances of marriage and their values going

forward. Right. What a God story.

Yeah. And it, you know, the redemption is quite

extraordinary. And I'm going to be inviting them

around to dinner soon, catch up with them,

because I. Here's the thing. Jonathan Wright.

People ask me who inspires you. Right. And the

people that inspire me are the people that have

gone through some of the most heartbreaking stuff

that I've not experienced. My wife is still

alive. We've been married 26 years. She is an

absolute amazing person and I'm super grateful

for every day. Right. So that's my story. But the

people like Tony and Jean who have lost husbands

or people that have been through. Through divorce

or people that have dealt with insane levels of

sickness. You know, some friends of ours were

survivors of breast cancer or, you know, the fact

she's on the what's the Story podcast. Danny Odin

tells her story of how she dealing with cancer.

We've got friend, you know, who's, who's got.

Who's had a pacemaker fitted on their bowel and

had, I mean, just incredible Stuff, they go

through it and they are so sweet in their

relationship with God. They're just so humble and

kind and they're beautiful people. They have no

resentment, they have no bitterness and they just

live off the mercy of God. And you can't help but

be. Who are the most inspiring people? They're

the most inspiring people. They don't go, they

don't go to pieces. Not that I've got issues with

people asking questions or going to pieces, but

it's more, they come out the other side refined

and just better, lovelier people. And they're the

most inspiring.

Yeah. Character.

Yeah.

They build character. Yeah. It's funny when you

and I, we gotta, we'll have to wrap up here, but

when you said, you know, what's the difference

between godly masculinity and toxic masculinity?

Before we came online and I'm working on the

immersive study for fathers. For fathers. So it's

like an alpha program just for men. And my, my

publisher yesterday, we spent about four or five

hours on it because it was Veterans Day in the US

and remember staying Canada for events. And so

after we took in the ceremonies for the brave men

and women who died, we were working on that and

he said, what's the number one characteristic of

a godly man? I said, humility. A man who's been

through the fire, who has developed all those

fruits of the spirit, long suffering, you know,

love, joy, peace, kindness, and it goes on.

There's a real humble spirit about those men.

They're very deliberate. You know, their

personalities stare there like, you know, my ea,

who's buzzing me right now to get into my next

meeting. I was very flattered. She said, you

know, like, you are a very gregarious, focused,

hardworking, deliberate, driven guy. But she

said, you're also very humble, like, and I, to

me, that is the greatest compliment anybody could

give me because I am not, I am out of the box. My

default program was not humility. Going back to,

you know, you're talking about the 20 year old

son. But God has humbled me as a way of refining

my character so that it's okay, you've got all

these natural talents, but I need to, I need to

harness that. I need you to be humble. I need to

take you through some trials and some tribulation

and some storms where you really are rocked to

the point where you are dependent on me. And by

virtue of that, you know, that it's, you know, by

my grace that you go. And so, yeah, to finish up

you know, the encouragement I would have for guys

is if you don't know Christ, if you haven't

really given God much of much thought, think

about this. In your heart of hearts. Do you

recognize something is very wrong with our world?

And if the answer is yes, then you're not alone

because it's always been there. You know, we have

technology and sophistication that we didn't have

150 years ago, but the human heart has had a

condition throughout all of human history. And I

would just encourage you to explore what God has

to say. And I read the Quran in English, I looked

at other religions, and what I found fascinating

about the Christian religion was that it's the

only thing, you don't have to do anything to earn

it. It's a free gift. You just have to receive

it. And you have to recognize that you have an

ailment that you can't fix. And he's telling you

he's already fixed it. And so if that offends

you, I would almost want you to call me directly

so we can hack it out some more because there was

a time when it offended me. Like that offended

me. Yeah, right. And it's, it's meant to offend,

but in a good way.

Yeah. So fantastic. Have the guts to follow your

calling, I think is. I like that, you know, the

whole guts to just do it and check it out. But

Jonathan, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much, man.

Yeah, thanks, Matt.

Yeah, real blessing. Thank you for coming on

again.

Yeah, man. And we'll get you over here to Canada

maybe like I'll cook up some big excuse for you

to speak and we can get you over here and we'll

take, we won't get you to Vancouver. Maybe we can

take you to Montreal and Quebec and you can ski

on a, you can ski on a 7,000 foot hill.

Just let me know where and when I'm there.

All right.

You're a real blessing, Jonathan. Thanks, brother.

Yeah. All right, man. God bless.

And just like that, we've reached the end of

another fascinating conversation. Crowd Church is

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