A Quick Dip into Allyship - with Cath Brew

Sarah: Hi everyone. Welcome to A Quick Dip, a series of short conversations about culture, communications, and change. I'm Sarah Black, founder of Athru Communications. I'm the communication strategist who is passionate about making sure you're not endlessly creating comms content. You're actually starting conversations that matter to your organisation.

And that's what this podcast is about. It's a series of conversations, introducing ideas to help make your communications activity more culturally relevant, more inclusive, and more effective.

Hi everyone, welcome to this week's episode of a Quick. Dip into comms culture and change. Today we're gonna take a quick dip into allyship with Cath Brew. Welcome Cath.

Cath: Thank you very much.

Sarah: Would you like to introduce yourself to everyone listening?

Cath: Yes. I am a global LGBTQ+ inclusion consultant, mentor and artist. And essentially I support allies who are looking to step into confident, active allyship and I work mainly around people who are working in international sphere, so international schools on whole school inclusion or LGBTQ+ inclusion. And also help global companies to navigate inclusion of diverse genders and sexualities cross-culturally.

So, there's a lot of complexity suddenly comes in when you're looking at different cultures and different religions and different nationalities. It, it changes things very quickly.

Sarah: Fabulous. And so I wanted really to start off, allyship is one of those words that we hear a lot, but I suspect maybe don't always understand. So it'd be great to hear what you mean when you talk about allyship.

Cath: Yeah, when I talk about allyship specifically, I'm talking about LGBTQ+, so that's lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer and the plus is every other kind of diverse gender and sexuality. So my, uh, notion of allyship for that is that it's active and it's consistent and it's informed action to advance the interest of LGBTQ + people.

And so that is essentially being done by people who are not part of that marginalised group who want to support and take action and help us to move from needing equity to actually having equality. And it's a process to me that requires people to be brave and courageous because it's often involved unlearning biases, unlearning behaviours that that we've been taught socially and reevaluating your stance on things and actually learning to sit with discomfort as you help people who are marginalised, but specifically, learning to speak up and to say things, not just when you want to. But actually it's required all the time, allyship. It's not just when it's comfortable for you to do so.

Sarah: And what do you think prevents, I have two questions I wanna ask. One of the things is, what prevents people from stepping into that role of allies do you think?

Cath: I think one of the fundamental things is actually an othering where people say, it's not part of my life. How does that affect me? Why should I do that? And then there's another side of that, which is people who are interested, but they don't really quite know what it means to be an ally. Or they're passionate about it, but they don't know how to go about it, who to ask. And then what comes off that is also because they don't know, they then lack confidence and they get nervous about doing or saying the wrong thing or they're, they're scared of a, a vitriolic reaction either from a, an LGBTQ+ person who's just had enough of being marginalised or from somebody who is homophobic or like biphobic or transphobic and who's at the other end, and just, hates everybody kind of thing.

And, and they're scared of knowing how to, to stand up to somebody. Yeah. It's, and it, and to me those things, it basically comes down to emotions and confidence, I think.

Sarah: There, there have been brands, employers that have stepped in and identified themselves as allies. Some perhaps more successfully than others, let's just say that.

I think I would like to know a little bit more about what you feel the dangers are of, or where does it become performative? Where can it become performative?

Cath: Yeah, we see an awful lot of logos become rainbow logos in pride month, and we call that rainbow washing. And I have a lot of problems with that because it then becomes just about financial gain. And I think, I mean, there's a level of importance about visibility and actually discussing these things, but if none of that is backed up throughout the year in actually making lasting change. then all that company is doing is profiteering off someone else's marginalisation, and that then becomes a problem.

So where it's then becomes a good thing is when you see those changes. And so you see recently in the UK the Halifax Bank announced that people could have their pronouns on their badges. Virgin Atlantic talks about the same thing with their, their cabin crew and also people who have to wear uniforms, they can also wear the uniform that they want.

There's a lot of things that start to happen, and as always happens with this, there's backlash from people who don't agree with it. So if a company is going to take this stance and actually being inclusive, they also have to be brave enough to stand by the flack that they'll get.

And this is why a lot of companies don't do it because they, they worry about what they're going to lose, but they actually don't often think about what they're gonna gain. And so, The example with the Halifax Bank was that people were complaining and they just said, well, you can close your account then if you like, and, and people were, and that stance is, is wonderful.

That is proper allyship where you are standing up for it, regardless of what the impact might be. But actually the impact was that also an awful lot of people then want to open accounts because of what they stand for. And it's not just LGBTQ+ people. The allies want this as well. So a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking they're doing it just for, for queer people, and actually it's for everybody as well.

Sarah: Yeah. So it's gonna be followed through. I think that's the, it's the confidence thing that you were talking about earlier that brands and organisations actually need to have that confidence as well as the individuals.

Cath: Exactly. Exactly. And I say this to international schools because often on websites you can't tell if that school is inclusive and there can be fear. Either there's the legality of can we do this within the country we're in? Or we are afraid that we're going to turn away, and I'm doing air quotes of typical families, but actually typical families also want diverse gender and sexualities discussed and raised and, and have their kids learn about this stuff. All my cisgender heterosexual friends want their kids to learn about this stuff too. And I, and I say to them, as a school, if you are going to take this stance, that's fine, but you have to work out what you're gonna stand behind. What are the values that you are trying to actually put out there as a school?

And so if you are fearful of that, then maybe there's some internal work that needs to be done with the school and its policies and, and its ethos.

Sarah: Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that because I was listening to you talk earlier about sort of individual allyship, which I think extends to brands and organisations as well, principles feel like they're all kind of around the same space. Is that this kind of starts with internal work with the, the understanding and the unpacking your biases. Is that where you feel it begins for a lot of people who want to be allies?

Cath: I think so, and I think this is the thing with othering people is that we see them as different from us. And what I tend to focus on with my work is to look at the emotions of it. So the person that is fearful and and discriminatory against a trans person, their fears and their things are, their emotions are probably coming from the same core as a trans person who's afraid of that person because of how they get treated.

And it's about looking at the emotions and understanding why that person feels that thing and breaking it down and actually helping them to understand where that comes from because it's too easy to look at someone and we feel, even like walking past a, I dunno, like a homeless person in the street, it's like, oh, that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, it's their fault. Rather than actually they haven't done anything, they've triggered something within you. What is it within you that makes you feel uncomfortable about this? And let's explore that. And then we can start to look at building up allyship. That first step is exploring yourself essentially, and then you start to see yourself in the people that, that are marginalised. And that's then when you get the emotional connection and when you start to get the, the wonderful allyship that comes.

Sarah: Fabulous. Having done that kind of internal work, what's given that we are doing a quick dip and we could probably talk about this the next three days.

What are some things that people can think about, just really practical things if they think, well I, I'd like to do better in this space yes, do the work on themselves, but are there sort of other actions that you would encourage people to think about?

Cath: I would ask people to realise that we live in a heteronormative society.

So to realize that because society has wiped out trans and non-binary history, and to a large extent kind of queer history, that there is an assumption that everybody is cisgendered, so living the gender that was assumed from your biological sex when you were born and that you are heterosexual. And I think, uh, to ask people to start to check in with their assumptions.

So when someone says that they're pregnant, do you say, oh, do you know if it's a boy or a girl? That is a very, very big assumption. It's, it's not assuming someone's gender. When someone talks about their son, don't say, what does he do? you can just say, what do they do? Like, just don't be so gendered and start to realise that so much of what we do as individuals is a binary way of looking at things.

And actually just start to query your own assumptions all the time. And just practical things like put on your social media that you're an ally, that you're an LGBTQ+ ally. Little things, because as a marginalised person, the onus is always on us to test the waters to see if it's gonna be a safe space by having to out yourself or someone assumes that your partner's a man, and so I have to correct them every time.

There's, there's a slight power imbalance, so if, if as an ally you make it known that you're an ally, That just balances things ever so slightly, but ever so hugely as well at the same time. And it's little things like that.

Sarah: Yeah. I think one of the things that I know I've been guilty of is that assumption about partners, which don't do anymore.

But it just shows, I mean, conscious for communications professionals. Um, listening to this that it says a lot about the language we use. And being more aware of how language actually can have a really powerful impact. And I think a lot of people tend to get hung up on the pronouns, which are incredibly important.

Um, but they forget about some of those examples that you've just given where we meet, um, those little assumptions creep in. Are there other things around language that people should be aware of or thinking about from a communications perspective?

Cath: Yeah, I mean, from a communications perspective, if someone's in front of you and you're actually talking to them or you are giving advice to, to people about how to talk to people, it's really simple, it's just ask, just say, for me, I'd be like, hi, my name's Cath. How would you like me to refer to you? Or the other thing is mirroring language. So, if a gay person is talking to you, if it's a lesbian, if they refer to their wife, then use the word wife. Don't change it to partner. Don't change it to inverted commas 'your friend', which is what I get, that I will refer to my wife and, and someone will say, oh, your, your friend's here.

And I'm like, no, it's my wife. So there's this constant little undermining of your relationship, so it's reflecting, mirroring language back is incredibly important. And also to understand that language, as we all know is very, very loaded, but some of the things around gendered language, so like my wife is non-binary and they tell me that when people refer to them as a woman, it's actually physically painful and a really good way of, as a communications person to just check in with yourself is to imagine your day, whatever gender you are, imagine your day and someone calling you the wrong gender all day long. In the morning when they come and grab a cup of coffee, it's like they call you David, but your name's Jan. It's like, or David, can I get you a cup of coffee or an email says, dear David, like this constant thing all day long and realise how yeah, uncomfortable that is, and how wearing it is and how the right use of language can actually revolutionise someone else's day. It's a tiny thing for you, but actually a massive thing in terms of impact for somebody.

Sarah: Yeah. It's the part of acknowledgement and recognition.

It's particularly in a workplace and one of the things that I now notice having like had lots of conversations with you over the years is if I'm filling any kind of online form and it only gives me male and female. Like, I wanna send an, I wanna send a nasty email. Because I'm like, come on, come on.

Why does it, you know, hello? Do better.

Cath: A absolutely. And the other thing is, is understanding what options to put. So people will put, for gender, they'll put male, female, and then they'd put other. Now there's two problems with that, that actually your gender is not male or female, your gender is actually man or woman.

Male, female is actually your sex, your biological sex. And then if you also put other, you are just homogenising everybody into one little thing. And why should the queer community have any less gravitas in all of their different genders and sexualities than the heterosexual community or the, the cisgender community?

So put man, woman, transgender man, transgender woman, non-binary, non-conforming, and, and then, or just put, prefer not to say because some people don't, don't want to. And the other thing that I would say that's really, really important is that don't put limited options and put one of those elastics, that makes it an essential question because then it stops someone from continuing.

They have to pick an option that is actually physically uncomfortable for them.

Sarah: It's very confronting. That isn't it?

Cath: Or I've come across other forms at schools that will say, relationship to student and you put in the father option and it automatically makes the gender male. And they're essential questions and they don't give you any choice.

So it's just getting used to gender neutral language. And actually, if you are writing a document, use, he, she, and they generally across the whole document. Vary them so that there's a general usage across the whole thing. And get used to gender neutral language with everybody so that when you actually really need to use it, when you've got a trans or non-binary person in front of you, you're feeling confident and you know what to do when, when it matters most.

Sarah: Yes. Thank you. Just a huge, we could talk about this for days. Um, I'm lucky that I do get to talk to you about it for days. Um, but thank you very much. I want to give a, a shout out to Cath's Social Media where she has a, a fabulous series called Rainbow Roo. Um, so if you are feeling that these are issues that you're a bit tentative about or that you're a bit, um, unsure about, Rainbow Roo is a great way of exploring some of that in a very approachable and entertaining manner, as well as lots of other stuff that you will find in terms of resources and tips. I will drop all of that in the show notes, and you can check out, Cath, do some great training and education and mentoring programs if this is something that you'd like to explore more.

Cath: Can I also mention have a Facebook group? That is LGBTQIA+ allyship in action. If people would like to join that, it's a great place to just all talk and learn and find out more about what are the, the good things to do and the, the, the not so good things to do.

Sarah: Brilliant. Yes. Highly recommend that as well. Thank you, Cath.

Cath: Fantastic. Thank you very much.

Sarah: We'll talk to you soon.

Cath: Yeah. Cheers. Bye. Bye.

Sarah: If you've enjoyed today's conversation and maybe wanted to join it, then please do get in touch so we can talk more. I'd love to hear from you. You can sign up from my newsletter by finding me on LinkedIn, and let's connect and continue the conversation.

Thank you.

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