In this episode, James and Camie talk with Lora Lennertz a librarian at the University of Arkansas Libraries about copyright.

Copyright.gov

University of Arkansas Libraries

How to Cite AI Guide

Copyright Guide

Welcome to the pedagogy toolkit. This is James, and today, Cammy and I are going to be speaking with Lora Lennertz from the University of Arkansas libraries about copyright, especially as it applies to online classes.

Well, hey, Lora, tell us. Tell us a little about.

Yourself. What you what you.

Do here at EU of A and.

And yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, OK. I am Lora Lennertz, and I've been here for a really long time and variety of jobs at the library right now. I'm the director for open education data.

And publishing services at the library.

And I've been dealing with copyright as a media librarian, as a music librarian, as a theater librarian, and film for a number of years. And so I've often been asked to talk about copyright in the construct of the classroom, and have been doing.

So for a little.

While so I am compelled to say that I am not a lawyer.

Nothing I say.

Will constitute any legal advice.

And I am compelled to add that nobody on this podcast today is a lawyer, and none of this should be misconstrued as legal advice now.

However, I do have a lot of, you know, tricks and information about copyright that I can share with you and I'm really happy to do so. So thank you very much for inviting me.

We're really glad you could make it. Copyright is one of those things. As an instructional designer that comes up a bit when we work with professors and it's.

It's challenging to know exactly what your role there should be because you don't want to be the copyright police. Really at the same time, you have a due diligence to let people know when you see something that you think is problematic, right? You know, and you have a vote, you know, and then we'll do the extra work. Usually usually.

It's simply a matter of linking to something in a in a more appropriate way, rather than just throwing a PDF into the shell. So I think I think a lot of professors.

Have certain ideas about copyright that they learned in in class settings in, in, in person settings, about fair use, and those don't translate 1 to one to the online space, right?

Not entirely, no, because we have to realize that copyright is a construct that is one. It's national, not entirely international. So each nation has its own laws and its own.

It's it's beautiful as a legal construct in the sense that it exists and has existed for a very long time, but it has to be tweaked and has been tweaked with acts and and rules by the Congress that they've put out to try to deal with the newer situations that we're in at the time.

One thing to think about is copyright is one of three different intellectual property rights that exist. There's copyright, there's trade marking, and there's patents.

And all three of those are dealing with the concept of what does a person who creates something get to do with the thing they created.

How much of it is theirs and how much other people can use of their work and and that are allowed to do it. So as we move into different environments such as the online environment, it becomes easier to share things, but then it also can become a little difficult to know where the boundaries may be.

Fantastic.

That's.

That's a great summary.

Ohh Lora is magical. I don't know how much you've been around her, but she just brings everything right up here for everyone else.

Hey, could you tell us a little more?

About the Copyright Act.

Hey, copyright is actually is in Title 17.

Of the US code.

And that has a lot of sections that deal with the production and selling of works, the use of works. And So what you'll hear librarians talk about is like Section 108, which is dealing with fair use and what you can do.

With it and.

So.

Well, subsequent acts and rules come to work with that Title 17 of the code, so you'll hear things like the Teach Act or the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

And those acts are helping to, you know, tell us what to do in addition to fair use. So one thing to remember when you're working is, is that fair use is the central aspect of what we're doing.

But then again, how we translate that and use it is is very important. That's what those other acts do to help us describe and use them in the classroom, especially in an online.

Classroom. Sometimes I think as an instructor or we see our instructors, you know, look at these copyright laws and it looks like a lot of jargon. It looks like a lot of.

Detail in this so. But what as an instructor do I need to be watchful of because?

I know that copyright isn't always.

Cut and dry, and especially when you start moving spaces like face to face or online, it can look a little bit differently.

MHM.

One thing that's weird about copyright is if you're into black and white definitions, you're in the wrong area when you're talking about copyright, because copyright is really.

A lot of Gray areas. There are things that are clearly things you cannot do.

And things that you can.

Do and so, for example, making copies and sending them to everybody in the world. We all know that that's not a good idea and making things wide open is not a good idea, because that could infringe on other people's rights. I think some of the things to pay attention to is that when we're looking at copyright.

Looking at the kind of a a global effect of what you're doing.

So when you are dealing with copyright, there's very few black and white issues. You know there are some that's very clear you can't do and things that you can do. But overall you want to ensure that you are doing something in a timely manner that you are not.

Utilizing something in a way that was not desired by the copyright owner.

That you are also trying to do something that's transformative in the courts, that's really what it comes down to is that we're not taking anything and keeping people from making money by selling their books or selling their products. But we are trying to transform what they've done to build new knowledge.

And new learning from it.

And so whenever you're using something you want to be mindful that you are not making a real.

Impact on a marketplace and you are also doing something that is.

Going to really help the students to learn something new and create new knowledge. This all came really to mine for me when I was teaching music students because some of my music students were were composers and so I was teaching about copyright and how to use copyright. And can you copy materials to play music?

With composers right there.

Who were also trying to make money from the work they're doing. So it's a give and take. You want to be sure that you're supporting the activities of your colleagues who are trying to create work.

As well as developing new materials and new ideas and new thoughts with by using their materials.

How do you think copyright concerns differ from face to face and online courses?

Well, you know, just the old fashioned. How hard is it to do something is the question. When I was teaching, I taught so long ago as mimeographs, right?

I would mimeograph something and hand it to my students. They weren't going to make copies because no ones going to make another mimeograph and distribute the copies.

Around.

In an online environment, you're doing things digitally, and it's so much more easy to.

Move things around to share them with other people.

And not be really mindful of the effect you have on overall on the intellectual property of others. It's just harder in person to person to do that sharing and re restructuring of the material.

Feel not follow copyright, whereas it's so much easier and almost required in a way when you're doing it online because you have to reformat things from a paper object to a digital object, and right there you've done something that is can be questionable.

To.

Right. You we see this a lot, James, with our instructors. You know, they'll want to have let their students online. See one chapter of.

A book.

And they'll end up scanning it, which is not only an accessibility.

Issue but also a copyright issue.

Yeah. And like the first thing, one of the very first things I do when I'm look.

A class that's already been built to try to make it better is to go through and find the PDF's. There will be lots in in some classes will be lots of PDF's and a lot of times those articles they are available through our library and so I'm just taking the title or whatever and running it through one search at our library and getting a.

A nice legal link to that thing and adding that and then removing the the PDF itself, or at least removing it from visibility. I might keep it as a backup somewhere, but it will no longer be published there where people other than the instructor can see it, and so that's that's a first pass now then then you get into occasionally there's issues where.

There. What they're using isn't available through the library, and if that's the case, then the second thing I look at is the publication date on it, because a lot of times.

They've inherited this article from some other source. You know, it maybe it was in a class they took and they're just they're using it because they like it. But it may be wildly out of date. And there's probably a better source available and and more a newer source and that newer source is probably available through the library. And if it's not, then we can probably find something comparable.

So there's more footwork to do, but that gets us out of the of the situation where we're just, you know, uploading a PDF of somebody else's stuff.

Well, and course reserves is actually something I've been dealing with a lot because I do have a lot of instructors who just use one or two chapters from this book, and I know that our library kind of has a little formula that they use with they use a certain percentage of the book. If it's less than a certain percentage of the book.

And it's under fair use, and if it's not, then we have.

To look at alternatives.

Right. And I I do want to state that that is when we do those percentages, that's a kind of a rule of thumb, but it it's not necessarily it's it's based on what we think is what's called a fair harbor, a place where you're OK that we're not doing too much.

Because case law has indicated that about.

Some percentage of a book can be OK, but it depends on the item. So I hate to say that we do just sold percentages because that would indeed indicate that we're not paying attention to the the.

The quality of the work and the main gist of the work, which is also comes into play. Yeah, but.

You guys work with the instructors to to decide the quality of that work as well.

Is that me?

Exactly because we don't. You know, we wanna be sure that we are working.

You know, dutifully because, quite frankly, we can be held at fault, the institution can be held at fault. The instructor can be held at fault. If something were to occur and it were to go into legal aspects. So we try to be as dutiful as possible. And I know that that sometimes makes it sound like we're.

Being a little difficult on faculty members because, you know, having been a faculty member and being a faculty member, I realize that I want to teach what I want to teach, and I hate having constructs, you know, constraints around me rather.

I recently found out through the library this past fall we were looking at a course that just had a lot of scanned.

Any.

Isn't it that the instructor, no matter who has built this course, it is the instructor who is teaching it, who is responsible and can get copyright violations? Again, I even have to pay fines.

Neat.

Yeah. And the fines are extremely high.

And it's like, what 100 or a?

100 I think it's 150,000 per person per use. So if you have 20 students it it can multiply very very quickly.

And 50,000.

Oh, hush.

And one of the main things that have changed with copyright this last year is it's moved to small claims court as opposed to being a large deal. So now people don't have to invest as much money to sue someone as they used to. I I you know that. So just beware a little. I mean, that's not the only reason we follow copy. We want to do.

Copyright because it's the right thing to do, right?

Well, and to be fair, to be fair to instructors, I I think a lot of them, they just don't want to make students buy another book and a lot of times I tell them.

Exactly.

Make the students.

Another book. Well, I usually go through the R library and so as I do sometimes you you do just need to buy the book that that is how it happens. Sometimes you can't avoid that in certain scenarios however.

I.

We do have a lovely OCR librarian, Christine, and if you e-mail her, you can actually.

We, you know, say, hey, this is what I'm really looking at. I can't find it anywhere else. Sometimes she can suddenly go. Oh, yeah. Here it is. Right here. Your exact thing. And other times she says here's something like that that may you be able, you know, you may be able to use this instead of that.

This will seem off topic, but I think it I think it lands here it's going to land. I'm going to land it. One of the I build classes for the human Resource Development program, right. And there's a cool service out there. We subscribe to EU of A called HS talks and HS talks does.

Video content. A lot of it. And they also do they also have some journals and stuff. We at EU of A don't currently subscribe to their journals, but we subscribe to this video service, right? The students can get to it. They can get to it. But what's cool about them is they have this content matching service where I can send them a syllabus.

Or even a course planning document and say hey, my instructor is about to teach this class, can you go find me some relevant video content? And I'm sure some.

Poor intern at HS talks gets this list and I've I've used them two or three times and they always send me a very thoughtful, lovely Word document with links to all these videos on there service. So there there's a lot of great licensed content out there.

And.

Services who for free will?

Match it up for you.

And one thing that the library does do is we do provide access to a lot of electronic materials, including electronic books.

Where more than one person could utilize and get to the material online, no matter where they're.

That, you know, we forget we're not having to deal with the physical world anymore. We can do things in that way and provide books in that way we do. So I I do recommend that faculty work with the libraries to see what we can provide and help them with. And we can also, as we've said, you know, look.

Or new new materials that might fit the.

Bill as well.

Yeah, they've always come through for me. Like I like a lot of, I mean that I already have classes that use a.

An online textbook that's that everyone can access concurrently. You know it's licensed in that way, but I've, you know, I've run into other situations where the instructor really wanted to use this particular thing that we weren't licensed for. And, you know, with enough lead time, working with the library, I can get it licensed. They have, you know, they they can make it available.

Yeah.

So it's cause the library.

Is magic.

I'm not going to disabuse you.

For have decided that forever.

But.

It.

As you know.

If I'm an instructor, especially if I'm a new instructor to the University of Arkansas, I may not be aware of all of the resources the library has to offer, especially for copyright. So what copyright resources are available to? I'm going to say especially online instructors.

Well, definitely. I consider myself a resource. I'm the only law in the library. I'm from Chicago, so I keep it that way. Let's.

Just put it that way and.

URLORA brother and Christine is available, so we have people who are available to answer questions and we do that a lot. We also have our course reserves, people.

Who can help and with copyright and I work with them very closely as they're putting materials on course reserve also we have a guide on copyright and fair use that's available under our research guides on our library page. And so we have a lot of help in that regard.

And certainly I do a lot of individual phone calls and consults.

Nations. So we're available for you and have those materials available, which also include links to other sites, for example copyright.gov. It's great if you want to see the laws and see some of that information. Also the Stanford Libraries and Stanford University is fabulous.

Providing materials.

Purdue Owl has some wonderful materials as well. I'm sure you've heard of Purdue Owl and other constructs, but definitely with with with regard to copyright, you can find materials out there. American Library Association has materials as well that can help you in designing and in determining what you're doing with your course. And again.

It's there's. It's a Gray area, a lot of Gray area about where you have to judge what is right and what is and what is ethical and what is possible.

And how you are managing it. One thing I definitely would say is if you don't need to use something in your course, don't just add it for the sake of adding it. Be sure that you're using something that really is making a difference with your students. I don't want to be preachy, but.

You're not going to be messing around with copyright and being an infringer of copyright if you're doing using materials that really make sense in your class.

And that's something we advocate for in our QN standards and with our alignment is just making sure.

That.

Resource resources and materials are actually helping students reach the goal that you have set for.

Them in the course.

Yeah, it's tempting to throw everything in the kitchen sink in, but if it's not, if there's no.

If people don't have skin in the game, they're not going to.

Leverage that resource.

If there's, if there's not points attached to the reading of that supplemental resource, it's not going to get read. And in that scenario, I mean, it's no longer supplemental, right? So just you have to make the decision. It's like, is this something people need to know for this course not. Is it something need to know in general? But is it something they need to know?

For this course, I mean obviously you can make recommendations for how they can stock their library, but certainly in that situation you can just link to the publishers site, you know, and say stock your library. Also it it's good to take advantage of stuff that exists out there rather than on our servers, right? You know, it's not, it's not a copyright infringement.

Link to something.

That's actually the recommended way. Yeah, embed something if you can embed it, link to it if you can link.

Because it's not on you at that point, it's on the person who's providing the material.

I do. You know, I do feel that I need to address some of the issues about finding materials online because you can find a whole bunch of stuff and I've seen.

A lot of textbooks that have been placed illegally online.

They're everywhere.

I'm. I'm not saying sketch link to sketchy PDF sites.

Don't do that.

No, no, no, no.

I'm saying if if you if your video, you know for instance video exists on YouTube and you link to it with the best of intentions.

That's perfectly acceptable.

You're fine as far as copyright is concerned. Yeah. And now it may go away because it may not legally be there, but it may not. And there's a lot of, I think COVID maybe started this. There's a lot of content out on YouTube that the publishers and owners of that content have to know is there because they have legal wings.

M.

Cool.

Did I say that right? I'm stumbling over my words today. They have legal departments. They check, but sometimes they allow certain things to go on just out of the, I don't know, maybe the goodness of their hearts, or maybe because it's not hurting anything and it's not impinging on their sales, so they're OK with it for educational purposes.

And they don't want to deal with publishing it themselves, you know, so they'll just let it exist. This is my theory about why some of these things.

Are there for years.

And sometimes they're there because it's a a freeway to advertise something. You know, it's a scene. It's a scene from a movie. Hmm. People are talking about it. It has thousands of.

There you got to think of that too.

Do is maybe more people will actually want to see the entire thing, and then they're spending money in that way. So, you know, I do think I'm seeing that things tend to live longer on YouTube than they used to.

There you go.

Yeah.

Well, youtubes come up with a new model too where they license the content in the videos a lot. So like you know they've got, I don't know the INS and outs of it. You'll notice at the bottom of them that they link out to the real deal and it's not just.

That's the the person who uploaded it doing that they've algorithmically are finding ways to to credit things rather than just delete them out. Right, though they do plenty.

Right.

Of that too. Yeah. A lot of that, though. Now clips means music, even on social media that is licensed through said platform.

And that is that is available and that's really nice.

So if you can find something pre licensed that's always that's that's always very helpful.

That's true.

And we do have information if you want to understand Creative Commons licensing in particular, we do have information on our site and are trained to help with that kind of information as well. Because as a creator of works, you may want.

To create materials that are Creative Commons licensed, giving people the ability to use them more broadly. But also you can if you can find materials that are creative, commonly licensed.

You have more ability to utilize them in different ways than you would normally.

Yeah. And there are, there are plenty of clearinghouse sites out there there. There are plenty of of search engines that target or that can be made to target Creative Commons licensed material.

Exactly. Even Google has the ability for for you to to use their advanced searching capability.

Abilities to find images that are Creative Commons licensed to provide. Provide videos that are so it's it's it's possible in very many search engines to do that nowadays.

Yeah, I'll put a plug in for Unsplash. Because Unsplash in your search results has both licenses, licensable stuff, and it's clearly labeled and also stuff that you can use, you know, for free that's licensed for you to use. It's, you know, through various licenses.

I think that's what the blackboard stock images are, yeah.

Rightward stock images integrates that articulate storyline, uses that among others. So yeah, there's a lot. It's not hard to to find an appropriate can take a little time. There's the problem of abundance. Right. You're going to be sifting through a bunch of stuff. So it's not the problem, isn't that you won't be able to find an image of whatever it is you're looking for. The problem is, you're.

MHM.

Find a lot of them and you'll have to find.

The one that.

You think is most appropriate so.

I think the big question when we start looking at tools and how you can use these and where these images are cropping up is AI.

Oh no, I was afraid it would.

Go there. I know what I know yesterday.

You know it has to with the.

Rise of AI.

Because this has become a problem not only with.

Instructors, suspecting plagiarism from AI in the classroom.

But also even with images, and fundamentally where AI is getting their their sources to begin with, what what difference does the rise of AI make when it comes to copyright concerns in online classes?

That is a real interesting question and and we'll find out.

No, but the I mean, I would say that the concerns with and how copyright and AI brush up against each other is, as you said, what is being.

Use for the learning mechanism and the training mechanism of the AI. That is that is running. So the real question is if you're teaching a class on text mining or data mining or AI and you're building models.

Are you using appropriately the copyrighted materials for the training of your research? So that's where it really comes down to, because generally if you're getting something that has been generated through AI site citing it, informing people that you're using it is.

The way to do so.

And and that really what you need to do and and the issues of plagiarism are more of a concern in the classroom.

But the use of AI generated materials really is on the generated.

The generator the model maker.

And the copyright and and more and more of the countries are coming out with different rules about is it fair to use copyrighted materials to train models?

We always encourage people in online classes if they use AI, which is, you know, and we encourage them to use AI if they find it, we tell them what it can do. It can do certain things to help them out. AI is really, and it's built into learning platforms a lot these days, including the one we use, Blackboard Ultra. But AI can is really good at generating quizzes based on content. It's good.

Mm-hmm.

Generating rubrics based on your assignment, it can do a lot of things that took the grunt work.

It can.

The some of this came out very recently. I'm not going to name names, but a certain.

Very famous software company recently ran afoul of their users through an update. In the end user license agreement. You know, I never read EULA, but some people do, and some people noticed that there was new wording in this EULA for some.

Apps that a lot of graphic designers use.

And that that seemed to say again, I'm not a lawyer. That seemed to say it was totally OK for for this company to feed your work to the AI, to help train it. Your work in a cloud based app so that.

Mm-hmm.

That raised some concern among digital creators.

Exactly. Exactly because because generally what we've said with text mining and data mining is that you don't eat the whole steak, you're eating the steak that's ground up.

So you're eating the pieces of the sky.

And when you're training models, you're using the whole state, and so you know, initially the first people who are putting up lawsuits against these things were people who were doing code because code is is easily. You can see easily when things are replicated in the code and how much is replica.

People.

And so, you know, I've used ChatGPT just yesterday to create questions for an interview for people, and it did a great job. I threw in the information on the requirements of the job and all of that. And it came up with some fabulous questions. So I think the use of that kind of thing is is definitely.

Within the purview. But again, what are you training it on? And and that's where the copyright really comes into into play.

Right.

And what about, you know, plagiarism specifically with students? That's another thing that we see is students will plug in the question or prompt for the assignment or discussion board, which is not a recent thing, and they will copy word for word back, whatever the AI says and pop it in, there is their answer.

But also.

Like to the point and and of course not not citing the AI as as responsible for this response.

To the point that they're not really even reading like one of the questions one time in in this discussion board was, you know, tell us about your personality. Well, the student put that right into the AI and the AI said I am.

I am a I'm a robot. I don't have a person.

Reality and that was what the the student copied and pasted into.

Discussion board. That's really very interesting. Well, you know, you have to remember garbage in, garbage out and that's, you know, one of the things I think we have to to be wary of every time we get some new, beautiful, delicious thing we want to work with.

We have to teach people and and help people understand how to decide what is good and what is not good. When the chat things first came out, people were coming with citations from the chat, you know, chat.

Saying, you know, I need to find this book. Well, they make up fake citations and share GPT etc.

So if you use those citations, most likely it does not exist.

Now you really have to do.

Some double checking.

You really do. And it drove librarians crazy for the first three or four months when it was really popular because they were getting lots of students going. I need to find this resource which didn't exist. It was an amalgamation of resources that the chat bot had.

Gathered in in the.

Yeah, it if you ask.

Process journal articles or authors of journal articles in a specific subject. Even so, you can start your own.

Search.

It sends you down so many rabbit trails because you you can't like it's it's not real. The people aren't real, the.

No, are not real.

It's particularly prone to hallucination in that scenario. Sometimes some of them will be legit, but you have to like double check them. But.

Yes, exactly.

And if you're just throwing your discussion board prompt in there to try to cheat on an assignment, then you're not going to do that extra work of of of running it down.

Look. Yeah, and that's that's kind of like, you know, using the tool for the wrong purpose, you know, and there are other tools that will get you the kind of citations you want faster and quicker with less concern. And those are called like databases and things like that.

Right.

You know and use those, those the you know, the AI for what? It's good.

At.

Yeah. And it's it's it's good at a lot of things. You know, I use AI.

Almost every day to format books and book citations into APA 7. Like so, a lot of my courses, you know, use APA seven. That's their standard. And but instructors sometimes don't include all the details for it, but I want to. I want to include the details. So I'll or I'm doing a textbook.

My age in one of these classes, and I'll just I'll grab I can.

Copy paste the whole.

Whole.

A whole bunch of.

Text from the books publishers Page, where it's Amazon page. Throw it into any API and say hey, give me an APA 7 citation based on this content. And since I know what one looks like done well it will give me an accurate answer almost always once in a long while it will.

Get something wrong?

Right. And that's the same with our citation tools, is that they're good. They're based on.

AI of course.

But you still have to use the the element of your brain to look at those and be sure that they.

Are.

The what you are expecting.

The principle of discernment. Exactly. That's what. That's what you need to bring to the table. So if you're brand new to doing citations.

Then you don't, you don't.

Want to rely on a for it, but if you know how to do a citation, no basically what one looks like, but you're prone to forget something like how to properly format format, how to properly format the addition that one gets me all the time.

I'm like is it abbreviated or is?

Spelled out. It's the period. Go inside or outside the parens on the date it's outside, but I I struggle with those things and so it's handy on that.

And by the way, I will say that there is a guide that we've written with the undergraduate Research Office on how to cite AI and chat. JP T in particular, and how the different types of citation manuals like it to be cited.

OK.

Which is very different. Whether they determine that the AI itself is a creator or not, that's a really interesting topic.

I think these things will change.

Overtime will indeed.

Oh yeah, do you do?

You remember the early days of of.

Using citations for online resources like everyone had a different way to do it, and none of them made much sense. And finally, what's the Lora will know? What's the is it DOI is that the?

Oh my God.

No.

Yeah, the digital object identifier.

Now that we have DOI's for things you have, you know now the way APA and the way MLA do things than the others, I'm sure makes a lot more sense because you're giving essentially the information you would if it were a physical object, and adding this DOI at the end. And now it's great. And I wonder.

For so long, why they didn't do that cuz there was one early version of MLA where you basically had to tell it your search.

Terms and like all this other crazy.

Right. Retrieved by the state and all that.

Stuff.

It was.

It was very dumb it it took them a while.

Retrieved by date. I'm like, why? Why does that matter? Every single time I put that in?

It doesn't. It doesn't matter.

There. Well, it did matter. I'm a librarian.

Doesn't matter anymore, doesn't matter.

What does the page changed?

I mean, I understand why it mattered, but also.

Yeah. I mean, I feel the same way. Let me tell you. But yeah. So I think this will all change again. You know, as as it kind of.

Comes down out of the wash. You know how we get used to using stuff.

Well.

You know, we've even talked about Grammarly and how that has changed. It used to be we used to just think of it as you know, a a better grammar checker than Microsoft Word. But now it will rewrite your sentences. And is that is that you know?

Yeah.

Is it patriotism? Is it copyright or are we?

You know what's what's going on here? It's a really hard.

I don't know. I don't know, Carrie.

Better and nobody does.

Question. No, I mean you do know when something is definitely not the style of the person's communication. Yeah, you can kind of see that. And it used to be that you could see it through, you know.

Indentation is different.

And and Font is different.

But now you know we're getting into a much Wilder world, but it's still a person has their own.

Voice. But how do you determine that?

Sure.

Well, right, I mean cause back when I was teaching English online, what you would do is you'd want a kind of diagnostic paper fairly early, something short and early in the term where you would get a feel for what people looked like when they wrote. And then you could compare, you could. That was handy for later if they went off the rails on the.

The final assignment that they didn't have time to write and gave you something that didn't sound like.

Them at all. It sounds like a grad student.

You had a simple.

And you had that, I guess the trick there is if they're feeding you nonsense from the very beginning, then you don't have a baseline to judge from.

You know, we have another instructional designer on our team who has worked with some instructors.

And they actually started doing a respondus lockdown browser with monitor writing sample before the student ever got into the course. So before they accessed the lesson 1, you know, they had to do this little quiz with, and they had to answer a question like an essay style, not something specific not.

Who are you and where are you from? You know, like it's something that they actually to think about him, right?

Wow. Wow.

And then they have a writing sample with that students voice right there without the big resources and things like that. Now they can't cite anything.

You know in that.

Yeah.

So you shouldn't expect perfection, but.

There's something there.

That's one a really good idea. And two, a lot to implement and deal with. As an instructors, I.

It is if.

You have a lot of students in your class. If you have a smaller number of.

Yes.

Students, I think it's manageable, but it's.

It can't be difficult.

There's a line of due diligence here somewhere as.

An instructor when it comes to.

Actually I find this really scary. Child of the 60s, I'm like oh.

Gosh, though, yeah, never mind. But I do. I do. I do. I do think it's. It's intriguing and interesting what you can do.

Intriguing and creepy.

Right now, instructors are responsible.

Cool.

Or deciding whether or not students are using AI and if students are using AI without express permission, that's an academic integrity violation.

Yes.

And that's where we have to all grow up in what we believe AI should do and we're not there yet and so.

No, but yeah. So we have to.

You having.

Do something and just and.

Having like a sample to to start from gives you go OK now I've got the sample.

Yeah.

I can make a better decision about this without falsely accusing.

Right.

Because that that is a real.

I think ultimately that's built in them wanting to maintain the trust they have with students, not, you know, become more overbearing.

I know.

You know? But you know, I've read too much oral well.

I do want to know.

We you know, we've gone the gamut here and and copy right. We've talked about all kinds of integrations with it but.

Yes.

What are the?

Of the three top tips that you have for online instructors when setting up their course or adding things to their course.

In terms of copyright?

OK. One is that you want to link or in bed whatever you can. Linking is always cool. It's not a problem if something is available. Linking to it takes the owners off of.

View.

And the copyright is on the onus. The onus of that is on the person who's supplying that.

Link right? But we do caveat that don't just link out to trash things.

Don't want. That's true too. Just because you found it on the web one everything on the web is indeed copyrighted. Believe you believe it or not, unless it's said otherwise. But there's a lot of trash out there, so you have to be discerning again, just like you expect your students to be discerning, you need to be discerning about what you are using and what you're thinking.

And.

It is possible to just because a person says they own the copyright doesn't mean they do, so you have to look a little deeper and if it becomes too treacherous, the waters talk to a librarian, talk to global campus people that can help you. We'll all talk with each other.

To try to figure it out and try to find a way for you to utilize materials that are good for your class.

That fit.

Are all of our comfort zones? Because really, we're talking about the amount of risk. Anybody.

Wants to take.

And how much risk you want to take personally and possibly with your pocketbook on what you're doing. So we're here to help to identify this kind of information for you and make it a little easier for you. So I'm I'm more than happy and I I do a lot of collaborations with people to help them.

Get through this this the sea of issues. It keeps going to water because I always talk about water with copyright. I don't really know why but they.

You know.

It is the dark depths like.

It is the dark depths, but there are people who can help you and there are materials out there that can help you.

There's a search telling the truth.

And it is OK to feel uncomfortable.

It is totally OK because it is uncomfortable and it's not straightforward like we all would like it to be.

Yeah, I mean the squishiness of copyright law and of a lot of law is, is a blessing and a curse right on the, on the one hand, if you're doing your due diligence, you're not trying to rip anybody off in your.

Great.

Alright.

And and that's clear in the pattern of things you're using in the way that you're using them. Then it would be hard to imagine that, you know that's going to be an issue. On the other hand, the squishiness of it means you never know that you're 100% in the clear, and lawyers always talk in terms of risk. And I'm not a lawyer. And they there's not a situation where there is none.

Right. It's it's really a matter of trying to do things in a way that minimizes what you can perceive of as the risk.

Alright.

And I don't even know if I did 3, but one thing that you that I I immediately think of when you say that is if you have something that's.

You're not sure about. Just maintain some notes on.

What you did?

Because the notes of what you did to try to identify the copyright holder or to try to identify and contact people, all of those notes support you in your right to use something for fair use to keep good notes. We have a checklist on our on our live guide. Go ahead and use the.

Thank you.

Checklists to help you make some of those decisions.

But keep notes if you have anything that's of any question and that way you can go back to that and say, well, this is what I did and I did due due diligence.

And in an online class, I mean, it's very easy in Blackboard and I'm sure in any other LMS to create a file that's instructors notes file and keep it hidden from students. You can keep it right there close to the the place where you're using these materials. And so you have a record of what you've done and it's a weird part of our culture that when you write something down, it's more real.

Well, because you know what? It's copyrighted all.

That and also you know all my courses are online shelves are often shared between instructors, and actually the Gen. Ed courses they may be taught by, you know, GA's or adjunct instructors or instructors, but not professors, you know.

We have a lot of different titles.

Yeah.

For people here.

And so it's it's easier to have those instructor notes, so that not only you have that record, but also whoever else is going to teach.

It has that record.

Sure. That's really smart because that kind of future proves the whole thing. You know, they get less. The future instructor get up to speed on why certain things were used and things may have changed by that point. There may be a better resource out there that even if you've done all the due diligence and you're like, you know what, I'm using this one, this.

Yeah.

There's nothing else out there that's going to achieve what is I need to achieve. It's it's a short part of the whole thing. I'm going to go for it.

The case may have changed by the time the next person inherits that course, or they may feel differently about it. They may have a they may have an option that they.

Think is a better substitute.

I I don't think we should totally discard the idea that there are things that just happen because something in the world happens that Spurs you into wanting to use something at the last possible moment. You can't always do.

Everything that you need to to present something if it just happened and so those things are usually within fair use. Just keep notes of what you did because that makes your class using those kinds of materials can make your class so much more interesting and involving for the students because you're bringing in what's happening in the real world.

Half the time it's happened.

And those things you sometimes can't plan for.

Now, good point.

Connections matter.

Sure. Luckily we can link out to it all, but usually lives out there somewhere.

That's right. Exactly. Exactly, yes.

Well, Lora, thank you so much for being here with us today and sharing all of your magical knowledge of.

Copyright. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And I actually kind of like doing that and I like talking about copyright.

Which just most people go oh, but I'm like, oh, this is so much fun. So thank you so much. And anytime.

Now it's allowed to have, yeah.

It is fun and I think it is fun, kind of because of that flexible nature of copyright, there are a lot of specific cases that you can get into and go. Is this copyright or is it no copyright?

Mm-hmm.

So.

Yeah. So if you're at the U of A leverage?

Your network of people here who can help you with that, and if you're at some other institution, then I hope that you have a network there.

You can leverage.

And you can even contact me at the University of Arkansas. I may find the person for.

You.

At your institution, right?

Lora Lennertz, magical librarian extraordinaire.

Well, I need to be on every.

Episode I believe that, yeah.

Thanks for joining us today on the Pedagogy toolkit.

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