Social media marketer and author Jon-Stephen Stansel joins host Emily Hessney Lynch to discuss his journey as a social media marketer, from government and higher ed days to his current work as a social media consultant in the entertainment industry working with brands like Invincible, Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power, Hazbin Hotel, Sausage Party: Foodtopia, and Avatar: The Way of Water. We chat about the joy of getting to be funny and creative as a social media manager, some of the dark parts of the job that can impact your mental health, and how AI won't be able to do what social media pros do because it doesn't have something very human: taste.

In the second half of the show, we explore Jon-Stephen's life as a dad, including the ways he tries to do more than dads of past generations did, wanting his son to be bored sometimes, the struggle with deciding how much to share online, and more.

You can follow Jon-Stephen on LinkedIn or at @jsstansel on all other platforms. Check out his website here, and make sure to preorder his book The 10 Principles of Effective Social Media Marketing, or ask your library to add it to their collection! And find Emily on Instagram at @servemethesky.

This is a production of the Lunchador Podcast Network. Our logo was created by Tenderchomps Art.

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He came in making fun of me one day cause he had heard me, like, do multiple, multiple takes. And he's like, this is you, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "yeah, you nailed me." It's embarrassing having my family hear me, like...

I get embarrassed too! And my husband, I'll be like, "okay, if he walks the dogs and the baby's napping, then I will go ahead and record a TikTok." It has to be perfect conditions.

Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show, we have honest conversations about social media, parenthood and more.

When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations and making space for conflicting, messy feelings and keeping it real about how we feel.

We could all use more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hessney Lynch, and today I'm excited to talk to Jon-Stephen Stansel.

He's worked on social strategy for Avatar: the Way of Water and Lord of the Rings: the Rings of Power, and he's even worked at higher ed institutions and government agencies like the Texas Department of Transportation. So a very diverse career path. On top of all that, he's taught social media courses and he's presented at conferences and he's a dad as well.

If you want to see more of Jon-Stephen and his work, you can follow him on LinkedIn or find him at jsstansel on all other social media platforms. And make sure to preorder his book from your favorite bookstore or ask your local library to get a copy. I'm really looking forward to chatting today. Jon-Stephen, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me here. And I especially appreciate the plug for asking your local library. Libraries need every single bit of support they can right now.

And yeah, if you can get your local library to carry my book, that would be just make me happier than anything in the world. I love libraries.

Yeah, I'm a big library girly, so I always make sure to hype up the libraries. So I would love to hear about your career path to start us off. It seems like such an amazing journey from the higher ed days, government days, to this entertainment and consulting chapter so can you walk me through what that path?

So I started creating Facebook groups for my classes, promoting our department on Facebook, you know, sharing, like, our event, things like that. And one thing led to another and started doing more of that. I got asked to do that for our international office.

I became the go to person on campus for social media. I was doing it for our advising center, for our admissions office. Finally said, "look, can this just be my job? Can I run social for the university?"

And they said, "well, we don't have that position yet." So I said, "okay, I'll find a college that does." And I went to Texas State University and did that for several years.

Came back that that university eventually created that position, and our son was just born and was like, okay, we can go back to my hometown, get grandparent daycare, all that. So started doing it there. And several years went by. Covid hit.

I got really burnt out doing crisis comm, you know, and eventually they called us back to the office. And this was before the vaccine came out. And I was like, fine, whatever. I've got a private office. It'll be okay.

And I got to the office and they said, "pack your things. We're moving into an open office!" And I said, "no." My wife was like, "no! you're not doing that."

And, you know, I had a large following on Twitter at the time. Part of being an academic is that publish or perish mentality. So I was like, my entire career, like, I share what I'm talking about on Twitter.

I, you know, write articles and blog posts about what I do. I go to conferences and speak. So I developed a large following. And my wife said to me, she said, "look, you got 10,000 followers on Twitter right now. What if you just quit your job and put it out on Twitter that you're looking for something new? And just see what happens." And I was really nervous.

But up until that point, we had been living off one salary and she, you know, my salary and she had just gotten a job. So it's like, oh, it's not gonna be that much difference. It's gonna be once, you know, my, your salary instead of mine.

And so I put it out there and my filled up almost instantly within half an hour. Just lots of people wanted to interview me for position, open positions and. Which just gives you the power of why you need a personal brand.

And one of my followers who I'd never really interacted with at all, worked for Prime Video and said, "hey, we've got this new TV series called Invincible. I can tell from your social feed, you know social, you write about nerdy stuff too. So you're into comic books. Would you be interested in coming on board for like three months as a contract worker to help out with the series?"

And I jumped on that opportunity and one thing led to another and they liked my work so they cast me back for season two and a few more shows and one thing led to another. Started networking a little bit more and finding more jobs in the entertainment industry. So since that point, I've gotten to work on Invincible. I got to do community management for Shogun, worked on Lord of the Swings of Power and several other. Just he thinks kind of it's a pinch me moment. So it was very fortuitous to be able to.

The timing worked out and also I had that personal brand that had built up so just all the pieces kind of fell into place and, and that's kind of where I've been, what I've been doing for the past five years. So it's, it's been really exciting.

That's amazing. It just goes to show how you never know where those online connections will lead you. Like how cool that one of your followers was connected at Amazon prime and could get you in for that first gig.

You know, that's when I do a lot of speaking to students. And you know, one thing I've noticed, especially like Gen Z have been told, like, "be careful what you post online. You never know it's going to keep you from getting a job." you know, And I'm like, don't look at it as a bad thing, look at it as a good thing. You never know who's watching your social and it could be the person who's going to give you that next opportunity.

You know, it could be lead to the next thing. So I think we should kind of reframe how we teach young people about their social presence.

I teach a few college classes and they all really chafe at the personal brand idea. And they are being a lot more private online, I think, than millennials were. And there's just so much fear of judgment and all that. But I have been trying to highlight to them why it can be a good thing.

Exactly.

I'm curious, when you look back at those previous chapters of your career, what kind of lessons from like higher ed and government stuff did you take on to go to these entertainment type clients?

Oh, my goodness. I think there's a lot that higher ed can learn from the entertainment industry and vice versa.

I think the entertainment industry can take a few more risk a little bit, listen to their audiences a little bit better. Like, you know, higher ed, we were always listening out for our students what they had to say, what problems they were having.

You know, I ran, ran into like, issues where, okay, there's not enough Cocoa Puffs in the, in the, in the cafeteria or something like that. And try using that knowledge, that social listening to fix problems. I think the entertainment industry can learn a lot from that.

And, and to an extent they do. Like, you know, you'll see a lot, you know, from some of the projects I've worked on. Like, I've worked on projects for films that haven't been made yet, where it's like, okay, we've, we've gotten this book series, we bought the rights to it. What do the fans like about it that we have to include in the film? So I think that's something I would like to see more of in entertainment.

And I think higher ed does a decent job of, but that was something that I, I was happy to bring over.

One of my earliest social media jobs was doing social media for the financial aid office on our college campus. And that was not a fun one because there's not a lot of feedback we can take on. We can't just give everyone more money. Even though I wanted to.

You can't fix parking. Like, you show me a university where, where parking isn't a problem. I'll show you a university that's about to go out of business. But every place people complain about parking. And this is. Yeah.

Is there anything you miss about those eras about higher ed?

What I miss most about higher ed is the community. You know, there's a lot more sharing in higher ed of, you know, a student who's lives in Rochester is probably not going to come to the University of Central Arkansas or Texas State. So it's not like we're competing for students. The goal, overall goal is the same.

Like in higher ed, we want students to go to college, whether it's our college or the college down the street. Like we want people to get an education. That's the goal. So there's a lot more openness between colleagues at peer institutions where we can talk.

I'm like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. In entertainment, it's much more hush, hush. There are NDAs, there are things you can't talk about. The people at the studio down the street are the competition. So you don't want to reveal too many secrets.

So I kind of miss that openness and community, being able to share and learn, learn from other people a little bit more. I do miss that a lot.

That totally makes sense. I'm curious, with your consulting work, you have so many different pieces from public speaking to writing your book and your client work. What parts of your work do you enjoy the most these days?

Oh my goodness, just almost...it's a cop out answer, but just a little bit of everything. I like that there's so much variety in the job.

Personal stuff like writing and blogging and public speaking aside, just being a social media manager, there's so much that goes into it. You know, I do preach that, you know, social media managers shouldn't be required to be graphic designers or videographers or other things.

But it is nice in a way to be able to, you know, have so many little creative outlets to do. I also love the research behind it because I'm an academic at heart.

So like whenever the entertainment industry, it's a lot more fun than, than say, you know, the Department of Transportation. But when I was in the Department of Transportation, I did everything I could to learn, okay, self driving cars are a thing. Okay, let's figure, learn about that. Let's learn about, you know, traffic patterns and stuff.

Like in, in the entertainment industry, it's like, oh, I'm going to work on the Lord of the Rings television series. I am going to become a Tolkien expert. I'm going to read all of the books. I'm going to, you know, know it better than the fans and use that knowledge to make the accounts better. You know, I love it. You know, like for example, Hazbin Hotel. I did not know about Hazbin Hotel until I got hired to work on it. I didn't know it was a thing. It's, there's, you know, there's tons of fans. It's a, it's a really popular animated series. And I dove into the culture. I've learned everything I could about it. All the fan theories, all the fan ships, just every single thing I could about it.

And we would get comments, replies like, "oh, I can tell they put a fan in charge of this." And it was like, okay, yes, I did my research. Well, you know, and I'm a fan now, but, you know, it was a bit of playing catch up when I, when I first started that, that gig.

That's awesome. I have worked for one children's TV show and it was really fun to like, immerse myself and do kind of the same thing. Learning all the in jokes of the show so that I could make them on social. And then the fans always knew when you were part of the community too.

Exactly. That you're listening and paying attention to their little quirky theories.

And yeah, that's always so many bizarre theories with these things. Speaking of like bizarre theories or just being a social media manager, what are some of the less glamorous parts of it? Especially when running a major brand account, I think people tend to think it's just so cool. And they don't know what kind of downsides you have.

Well, one, you know, I won't deny it can be a lot of fun. There are the parts of it that are, you know, a blast. But when it comes down to it, you know, I like to say there's a quote from Charles Eames, the designer. He said, you know, "take your pleasure seriously." And that's the same way I feel about using humor on social media. I take my humor very seriously. Like, it is a craft. You know, it takes the time to make each word work just right, make everything, make sure it's going to land. It's not just funny to me, it's funny to our audience. So it's not all fun and games. There's a, you know, it really is a craft to do.

And then the down big downside is working, you know, dealing with toxic fandoms. You know, the bigger a show gets, you know, the more toxic the fandom can become. You know, it's, when a show's small, it's really nice because you've got these people that are excited. They're like, "oh, okay, yeah, come on board." You know, enjoy this.

You do get some of those really toxic fans that, you know, "oh, you're, you're going woke on this one" and it's just like, "no, dude, just, just chill out. Just enjoy the show." So that's always a little rough to deal with when we hit those patches.

Were you able to respond to those kind of criticisms directly or do you just kind of have to ignore it and let the team know if they're happening, or...?

You ignore and report. Yeah, you know, if you, you kind of keep an eye on them just to be sure it doesn't get anything too bad.

You know, I have worked on programs where, you know, I've been asked to sit down and watch three hours of a very hateful troll on YouTube just to make sure they're not saying anything that's going to, you know, they're not making any threats against the cast or anything that we need to be aware of. So, like watching the. I take a mental health day after those, I guess, like, I do not want to watch that hate for three hours. But sometimes, like, it's rough.

The show I worked on, people would like Photoshop swastika armbands onto one of the characters or like troll on one of the voice actors Instagrams and like tell her how hot she was and harass her and just all kinds of horrible things that people don't realize are happening.

And it's...somebody has to, to be aware of that and kind of report that, you know. So as social media managers, when we're in those positions, it's so important to take care of your mental health and, you know, limit your time spent in those places.

Have most of your clients and employers been pretty receptive when you bring up mental health stuff like that?

Oh, yeah, for sure. They understand. And I've even had, you know, a boss before who's like, she put time off on my schedule. It's like, "okay, you're, you're diving into like the pits of hate, you know, so take a couple days to just not go, go, go take a walk, go do something relaxing. So you're not, not too into that." And I, I come at this from, you know, a position of privilege. I'm, you know, middle aged, straight, cisgender white dude, you know, so if, if it affects me that much, I can't imagine, you know, someone from a marginalized community who's in this position reading those day in and day out. So I think we all really need to take our, take care of our mental health and, and, and be careful when, when our job leads us to those dark places.

Do you find yourself ever getting riled up by the comments and things like that and wanting to, like, fight them?

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And. And that. That's also when I know I need to step away a little bit. Like, okay, I just need to, you know.

So what are your, like, coping techniques when you step away?

Oh, I go, I. I take. I love to take a good walk. I go play fetch with my dog, get outside a little bit. I go, go read. Can do some escapism a little bit. I go to therapy. That helps out a lot, especially on stuff where my work is under NDA. Like, I can't talk about it to anyone else. So I have a therapist that, you know, we have confidentiality, so I can talk about those things with him. And that. That helps out a lot.

That's a good resource to have in your pocket too. Switching gears a little bit, your personal brand on LinkedIn and Twitter before that, you mentioned that you had 10,000 followers on Twitter when you quit your higher ed. Talk about how you started building your personal brand and, like, what inspired you to do that.

Yeah, it kind of comes down to my. My higher ed academic roots is I, you know, was told if you want to succeed in higher ed, you need to publish. And when I switch from faculty to staff, that didn't go away. I felt, you know, I still need to be representing the university. I need to, you know, if, if I want to make faculty agree and work with me, I need to, like, flex that muscle a little bit. Like, "oh, I'm an academic too. I'm not just some, you know." They're, they're very skeptical of marketing in higher ed.

So I would go and speak at conferences and the meantime tweet with other social media managers and talk about. I just made it a resolution. Once a day, I'm gonna post something about my job and what I think about it.

And eventually kind of the snowball effect happened and started gaining followers. And, you know, I'm up to like 30,000 on Twitter, which I don't really pay much attention to anymore. Post Elon.

I've kind of fired it back up now that I've got a book coming out, because, you know, it's just like, oh, I've got 30,000 followers to do there. I probably need to, you know, put something out there. And then kind of moved over to LinkedIn. I moved to.

I started doing LinkedIn because I was getting plagiarized there. I didn't really want to do LinkedIn. And every so often, I would have a tweet take off and somebody would message me and go, "hey, somebody just copy and pasted your tweet onto LinkedIn and is taking credit for it." It's like, I guess I just need. It happened so often, I was like, "I'm just gonna beat them to it," and just started copying and pasting onto my personal LinkedIn. You know, it's okay if it goes on Twitter, it goes on my LinkedIn and realize, oh, wait, I've got more space on LinkedIn and there's a different voice there and there's different people there, so I can do something different. So I've become. I never thought I would have more followers on LinkedIn than I had on Twitter. I. I don't know if. If that's, that's all Elon's fault or just the way the LinkedIn algorithm's working now, but I'm up to, like, 55K on LinkedIn and still hovering around 30 on Twitter. So I'm trying to do more on TikTok, but to go through the name of your show, it's a lot to do, and I don't want to get on camera every day.

And I am a dad during the summer. My son's home, so actually being able to record uninterrupted. He came in making fun of me one day because he had heard me do multiple, multiple takes, and he's like, this is you, "blah blah blah blah blah." And like, "yeah, you nailed me."

So it is a little bit harder to move over to the video formats, but I'm trying to do a little bit more just to kind of keep up with it and just also use my own, you know, exercise that muscle so I can use that with my clients as well.

It is so hard to find time to record. Like, I used to do a lot more TikTok content before I had my son, and he's only one. So I'm, like, trying to record something, and he's, like, putting something in his mouth or harassing a dog, and I'm like, "no, no!" redirect.

Exactly. And even. Even without that, it's just, you know, I'm. It's embarrassing to, like, if you. You have to get over that ego hump. A bit of, like, okay, I know it's not vain of me to, like, try and record. I'm trying to do a thing. It helps me get work. It's good. But, you know, having my family hear me, like...

no, I get embarrassed, too! And my husband I'll be like, "okay, if he walks the dogs and the baby's napping, then I will go ahead, record a TikTok." It has to be perfect conditions.

My wife went grocery shopping with my son and okay, I'm gonna record. What can I record?

That's so funny. What kind of challenges are you facing in this chapter of your career?

Oh, you know, right now, fingers crossed, things are pretty good. And staying that way.

Being a freelancer is always, it's a bit of feast or famine, you know, kind of plan of like, okay, what am I going to do in a year's time? Figuring out taxes, all of those sort of other things that you have to do that, you know, when you have a 9 to 5 job, you don't really think about.

I'm not a business oriented person. So also negotiating like, okay, this is what the cost is. All of that sort of thing is tough. I want to be the person doing the work. So that's always a challenge. You know, work life balance is always a bit of a challenge. I feel like it's either one way or the other, you know, like it's never like that.

That seesaw is never at equilibrium. It's always one is higher than the other. And trying to get it as close to balanced as possible can. Can be a. Definitely a challenge for sure.

Especially since having a kid, I feel like it's a mirage. I'm like always reaching for some semblance of balance and not, not really getting there.

No.

Maybe someday! we'll see. With your following on LinkedIn, I know you have a lot of social media professionals who follow you. What kind of themes do you see in the comments lately about how people are feeling about social these days?

Oh, man. I think social media managers are facing just severe burnout. We're expected to fill so many roles. Do more with less.

There's a lot of anxiety about AI. There's also a lot of love for AI. It's, you know, a little bit of both. And I feel like we're having the same conversations we were having 10 years ago about respect for social media managers, understanding the value of social media. I mean, social media has been around for, you know, over 15 years now and it's still kind of seen as an entry level position.

Like, I don't want to be a social media manager so I can one day be a creative director or, you know, a director of marketing. I want to do social media. I don't want to do anything else. So.

But so many in the industry see it as like an entry level "oh, this is how you get in so you can do more like." No, this is, it's the own thing. This is like a career that you can have for your entire life and become better at it as you go.

And I don't think it's. People outside of social media haven't come to realize that yet.

I love that perspective because I feel like people are always wondering what's, what's next or what do you move up to or move on to. But people actually enjoy the work itself of being in social and making content, forming communities and all of that.

Yeah. And I think there's a place for social media managers to move up. I think you need like one. More brands need to see it as a team role rather than just a singular position. You know, you, I think you have, you know, room for, you know, assistant social media manager straight out of college who can work under a social, a social media manager and learn the ropes.

You have room for like social media director roles where it's a little bit more, more like a creative director where you've got a team that are graphic designers and videographers who are focused on social and you have a social media director who can kind of say, okay, well, let's tweak this, let's make this, you know, a little bit. I see that role being kind of like the ultimate for social media managers or even like executive level roles.

I could see a VP of social being being a more prominent role. So, yeah, I don't think it's, it's a stepping stone to something else. I think it is the beginning of a long career in social media.

So it sounds like you don't have a impulse to leave social media anytime soon.

No, I like what I do. It has its frustrations and it's a lot of work sometimes. But like, there's something really cool about, you know, having an idea in the morning, going to work, creating, and it's online and people are responding to it by the afternoon. That's, that's awesome. It's awesome to, you know, this is one reason why I, I have qualms about like, AI. I'm, I'm a writer. I like seeing my idea.

Even like people say, oh, AI can be a good brainstorming partner. But I like it to be my idea. I like going, looking at my phone, at the, at the account that I'm working on, going, that was my idea.

Those are my words on the, you know, Rings of Power account. You know, like, I'm never going to write a great work like Tolkien, right? But I can put my thumbprint on it now, you know, like that, to me, that's amazing. And the fact, even if outside of the entertainment industry, like, I can make an impact on a business. Yeah, it's. It's a really good feeling.

Yeah, it's special. I had a TikTok pop up for a client recently and I was like, "I did that!" I feel like sometimes I forget that I'm good at what I do and, and it seems so hard sometimes to please the algorithm and you do all the things that you know are best practices and it goes nowhere, but sometimes you really have a hit and it's just exciting.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's a. It's. It's a great feeling when it happens. So.

Not that numbers are everything either! but still feels good.

Or even so for something that doesn't do numbers, but I'm like, you know what? That was a good joke I made.

Yeah.

Like, it didn't do numbers, but you know what? I know it was good.

Right? So do you use AI in your work at all right now, or are you avoiding it completely?

I am trying to find ways to use it more because I think it's an amazing technology, but so far I'm not finding. Not to sound egotistical, but I can do better work than the AI can.

I can write better than the AI, and I enjoyed the process of doing it, so it's not really saving me any work or brain. Like we mentioned in brainstorming, I want to come up.

I enjoy, like, you know, I'm working on Sausage Party Foodtopia right now, which is the silliest show you can imagine, and half of the content is food puns. But I enjoy, like, sitting in my office spinning into my chair, trying to come up with a food pun. Like, that's fun for me. I don't want to just be like, "all right, chatgpt, give me a list of food puns." I like doing that work. So I'm trying to use it more on the organizational side of like, okay, how can I optimize my schedule? You know, take meeting notes for me. You know, do that little nitty gritty work that I just. That I prefer not to do. Like, but for creative work. I just. I can't.

I enjoy doing design work and making things on Photoshop. Like, I don't want it to make a picture for me. I want to do that myself.

So I don't know, I'm going to have, probably at some point, have to, like, hold my nose and do it a little bit more. But like, I'm trying to find other uses for it. So to. To free me up to be. Do the creative work.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't want to lose the fun parts of my job to AI and.

I can do it better!

Yeah.

So, like, I'm sure it's going to get. But like, here's why I don't think AI is ever going to replace social media managers: AI doesn't have taste.

AI can shoot out, you know, 50 copy options in 30 seconds, but you need a social media manager to know, okay, that's going to work for our audience. That's not going to work well, if we just tweak this a little bit, you know, it'll work. You've got to have the taste.

So, yeah, it can't necessarily understand pop culture either. To get a sense of what the community is saying, what the cultural moment is, how something's going to land. Like, it just can't do that.

No.

One of the only ways I'm using AI right now is actually for this podcast. We use a software that takes all your video clips and it gives you little suggestions of, oh, this one might do really well. And it clips like the 30 or 60 second things and that's so helpful.

So I don't have to go through an hour of video footage and it saves me a lot of time and then I can still apply my own creativity and marketing skills to it. So something like that has been working well for me, but not much else.

I'm kind of the same way. It's like, okay, where can I find it to like streamline some, some processes, but for creative work, I just. It. It doesn't land for me.

If you could change anything about our current social media platforms, what would you want to change?

Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's a, that's a huge question. Oh, there's a lot. Like, how much time do you have? If I had to pick what. But, but.

it'd be a whole episode on its own.

Yeah. You know, I could go through about 50 things about how they could make the role job of social media managers easier. You know, the Meta Business Studio is an atrocious mess, but honestly, I, I'd rather them spend more time on making the platform safe for everybody than convenient for social media managers. I would deal with Facebook Business Studio all day long, as bad as it is.

If they would do something about misinformation and disinformation on their platforms and some of the toxicity that is there. So if I could change one thing about social media, it would be that of the platforms making those spaces safer for everyone.

Yeah, the way they loosened up the content moderation restrictions this year was brutal. Like, I noticed it more personally than professionally. But in comment sections, people are just saying the most egregious shit and you report it and they're like, "that's fine, it's not a violation."

Exactly. So it's, it's, there's some, some major problems that I, I'd like to see those deal with before anything that would make my life as a social media manager easier, that would be, be the, the main thing that's fair.

We're going to take a break shortly, but one more question before that. I want to hear a little bit about your book. So give me like the high level overview of The 10 Principles of Effective Social Media Marketing and tell me about the whole backstory.

Yeah. So my publisher, Kogan Page, approached me about writing a book about. Oh man, I feel this is such a long process from like the young, I mean, almost three years ago, I think. And you know, I thought about, you know, I'd always thought about, wanted to write a book. And the challenge with writing a book about social media marketing is it changes so rapidly.

Like I, I've literally given a presentation on social media marketing where while in the middle of the presentation, Twitter switched from being 140 characters to 280 characters. And I was just like, "oh, okay, that presentation I just gave, really, you know, it's already outdated."

So writing a book where, you know, I started writing it, putting pen to paper about this time last year, finished it in February and it comes out in September. And it's like, okay, a lot has happened since now and then. So how do you write a book that stays current?

And you know, I thought of things like it needs to be a team effort, you know, even though it's not, not for a lot of social media managers, like, that's never going to change. If anything, it's only going to become more so as social media teams grow.

It needs to be accessible, making your, your social content accessible for those using assistive technologies. So You've got alt text, you've got captions on your videos. Effective social media marketing is honest. You know, like those principles like you can't lie to your, your, your audience. You've got to be human and authentic and, you know, and, and real in social media marketing needs to be audience focused. You've got to put your audience first.

These things are no matter what platform you're on, no matter what algorithm changes, trends happen, these principles should stay the same fingers crossed they do for a while.

So that was the challenge and I tried to take on in writing the book of coming up with 10 principles that I felt are universally relevant and also some creating, writing a book that I felt was useful to social media managers regardless of where they are in their career. You know, as I grow as a social media manager, I get a little frustrated because I want to learn more.

But most resources out there are still pretty basic, so there's not like a masterclass in social media marketing when you get to, you know, I was one of the first generation of social media managers, so like, there really aren't that many others that have been doing it longer than I have.

So I, you know, tried to make something that I felt would be relevant to somebody who's been, you know, a college student who wants to become a social media manager, a social media manager on day one of their first job, and an experienced social media manager, a social media manager's boss who may never touch social media but wants to learn more about what their team is doing. So I think those were the challenges and that's kind of how I approached writing the book.

That sounds like it'll be such a helpful resource for so many people.

I hope so. And another thing about it is I wanted it to be as real and honest reflection of the, the field and, you know, so that college student who's thinking about going into social media, like I think in, in the introduction of the book, I actually say, like, "are you sure you want to do this job?" Like, why does anybody want to do this? And list all the, the tough things about being a social media manager.

So, you know, that student understands like you don't just get to play around on your phone and make funny TikTok videos. There is a lot of that goes into this. That's, that's more than that.

All the principles you mentioned, I often touch on in presentations or workshops that I'm giving. And I always think this is the most basic stuff. And then people are like, "wow, this is so insightful." So I think having that kind of groundwork for people is just a great tool to have.

Yeah, I think that's something that as social media managers we have a trouble with because the things that, and this is, no matter what job you're at, like the things that seem obvious to you are, are not. You know, so I do get that feeling sometimes when I talk about like, oh yeah, links don't work in Instagram posts. Well, duh, everybody. No, not everybody knows that.

You know, please, sometimes QR code on your Instagram graphic.

Right. We have to repeat these things because yeah, it might be obvious to us who've been doing it for years, but it's not obvious to everyone. And it does feel a little weird. Like, why am I just saying something that everybody knows? but that, we're not, so.

Well, this has been great. Let's take a little break and we'll get back into it shortly.

So when we were messaging, you mentioned that you are the dad of a very energetic 8 year old. What is that chapter of parenthood looking like for you guys these days?

Oh, it's, it's, you know, I, I think back, you know, having a son, I, you know, I think back of like my favorite ages to be and like 8 through 10 were really good years. And you know, because you're still a kid and you still kind of play with a lot of different toys, but you're starting to kind of evolve.

Like I took him to see the Fantastic Four and the Superman movie this summer and you know, it's the first year, he can. They're PG13 movies that we can push the envelope a little and start sharing some of those things. So that's been really fun to be able to.

And especially working in entertainment now, like most of the shows that I work on are kind of more adult oriented so you can't really watch them with me. But at least part of my job is like, I try to stay current on the entire entertainment spectrum. What's going on.

So now it's like, "okay, well I'm going to go see the Fantastic Four movie. You can come along and kind of share this with me."

So that's, that's really exciting and a lot of fun and just kind of see how he's becoming his own person and developing his own taste outside of what I enjoy too, is really fun.

That's really cool. What kind of stuff is he into that's different than your own taste?

We do have a lot of the same taste. But you know, this is the thing. He, he's, we try to limit his screen and video game time as as much as possible.

But I don't want to like, just I know one of those parents that's like, "oh, no video games at all." Because I honestly, me growing up, one of my, you know, I was an indoorsy kid. I was a nerdy, like book a nose kid. My dad was much more outdoorsy, you know, athletic. And I remember us playing Nintendo together and that being, you know, something that we could share and bond over.

So I, you know, I don't want to like dismiss video games so I try to find ways that we can, can share those. But one thing that he really enjoys and I just cannot stand is he really likes to watch like video game streaming.

And like I'm, I remember being a kid and like my friend would be playing the game, I'd be like, "I can't wait till it's my turn. I don't want to watch you play."

But he can watch those videos and it's kind of neat for me to watch those with him because like, "okay, I see what you enjoy about that" and I can take that into my work a bit too.

Of like, okay, I do work with, sometimes work with streamers or, you know, that this, these online communities and kind of see what they like about it and start to find ones that I can actually enjoy and watch a bit too. So he kind of introduces me to some of those things and that's really interesting.

And also by bonding with him on that, it actually helps me at my work. So that's really neat. He's his own person, he does his own thing. He likes the types of books that he likes and I can try and push stuff on him and I have to realize like, oh, he'll he, he's too much like me. It's gotta be his own idea before he gets into it.

That's so interesting about the video game streaming. I had someone, a student last semester, submitted a project where she had to interview someone. It was an audio interview interview, like a podcast. She streamed herself playing a video game while interviewing this person. Because that's like the kind of interview content she watches.

Exactly. In a way that, that's, that's kind of an. Because one, your, your brain is in one place and you might be a little bit more open. It's almost kind of like that. What was it? That was the hot wings show. The Hot Ones.

Oh yeah.

You know, it kind of might open you up on your interview a little bit more if you're not totally focused on just what you're saying. But yeah, It's. It's a, It's a different form of entertainment that I've never really understood that watching him get into it a bit.

And also, you know, I want to watch him on doing that because there's who knows what else is out on, you know, make sure he's watching something that's kid friendly.

So I've only been a parent for 14 months, so I'm very new at this. But I found many aspects overwhelming. What aspects have been overwhelming for you and your parenthood journey?

Oh, it's. There's so much that goes into it. There's so, so many activities for kids. Like, his schedule is just packed. And then there are times, like, I want, I want him to have these enriching activities, but I also want him to be bored from time to time. Like, you know, you need that time. Like, he'll come to me like, "dad, what can I do?" I'm like, "that's not my problem, bud. Go upstairs and be bored for a while and you will find something to do," you know, and also, sometimes I feel greedy of, like, I don't want him doing all of these activities because I want time with him.

So that's a lot where it's like, okay, trying to choose, you know, okay, what he needs to do and whatnot, and just the amount of parenting advice that's out there, and it's just like, like, okay, I can't do all of these things. That can be very overwhelming. So I sometimes I try actively to just avoid some of that.

That was something I wanted to ask you about because I see tons of parenting content online. I'm curious what your feed serves you in terms of parenting content.

Oh, it's tough because I, I think the content out there for dads really isn't as good as the content out there for moms. And there's so much, like, dumb dad stuff. Like, and I understand there's, there's parenting humor and that, and that's great, but there's just so much of like, "oh, here's like the, the most manly diaper bags." I'm like, I. Granted, I, I don't want a pink diaper bag, but I don't. It doesn't need to look like it, I I got from Army Surplus or whatever.

You know, there's so much sort of like, toxic masculinity in that parenting space, which I know there are some good ones I really like Daily Dad and a few others. But. And, and this is where I wish I'd like to, like, talk more about it, but it's also, it's a completely, a whole different can of worms. Like, I don't, I, I, I, you know, I, I want to be more open about how as a dad I try to do more. And then, you know, dads before me have done of previous generations. I have a much more flexible schedule than my wife. So I, I'm the one who, you know, generally drops him off at school, picks them up, takes them to doctor's appointments, does a lot of, a lot of those things. And I want to talk about it, but one, I, I don't want to read those comments.

People are so opinionated when it comes to parenting where it's like, they are. You know, I think one of the first photos I put my kid on, on social media and somebody, one of the first comments was, "he's not in that car seat right." And it's like, "well, that's what the picture looks like. I thank you for your concern, but he's okay." you know, or "I can't believe you feed him that," you know, like, "well, it's not like it's all the time."

And also like, I, you know, don't want to, you know, I'd love to be an example for other dads and working parents and say like, you know, hey, dads, get out there and do more. But also don't want to diminish the role of his, you know, mothers in general too.

Like, it just, it's a, it's a, it's a very tricky area to talk about and I just sometimes don't feel like I know I need to talk about it more but don't really know how to do it right, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it can all feel very loaded. And like you said, people are very opinionated online.

I feel like I see a lot more moms posting on LinkedIn these days about doing different parenting tasks throughout the day with their flexible schedule or like dropping their kid off at daycare and things like that. But I don't see as many dads, like, sharing those little glimpses. Just interesting.

Yeah, it, I, I, I think, I think there are dads that want to, but they just don't know how to write. And, and you know, then it also comes with like, taking a, how much you share about your, your child online.

And, and honestly, I, one reason I don't share much is because I don't want those comments of people being like, "you shouldn't share that much of your child." Like, was honestly, I one, I think privacy is just gone. This is not a thing you have anymore.

Like, you know, if you want to know about my kid, I'm sure if you want to find stuff on online, I'm sure you're going to be able to find it somewhere. Like, you know, my feeling on it is like, as long as I'm not violating his privacy, like, you know, I think like, oh, would he be embarrassed by. Of course he's going to be embarrassed by all of them when he's 16. Is he going to be embarrassed when he's 30? Right. You know, that sort of stuff. I don't mind sharing, but I just don't want that, that criticism.

So I kind of avoided a little bit. So it's, it's a lot. I think if we were a little bit more forgiving of people online, you might see more dads talk more. But like, yeah, I don't.

I don't know. Even talking about this now, I'm like. I'm like, how would people criticize this? What I'm saying right now, it's really hard.

People have very strong feelings about parenting. It's. It's tough to talk about.

I just got served a Facebook reel last night of a mom being like, "oh, my gosh, my kid took the best nap ever after her first birthday," and it's like zooming in on her sleeping baby. And I was like, "I feel icky watching this." And a few people were saying like, "oh, you should respect your kids privacy."

And then I, of course, started arguing with someone because I couldn't stop myself. And I was like, "oh, what will the. The kid think when they're older?" and they're like, "they're a toddler, they don't care!" I'm like, "they're gonna be a teenager. They're gonna be an adult! Like, you're sharing this without their consent, you know." And I don't want to like, shit on other moms online, but at the same time, I just. I was arguing with another commenter, not the mom. But it's really hard to navigate. It's a lot.

Yeah. And, you know, it's like a special moment for a parent too, where I can see why they want to share that. But, yeah, it's tough. It's kind of, kind of like, this is so weird. I've never told this story publicly...before when my son was first born, and my wife rolls her eyes whenever I tell talk about this.

But, like, when he was first born, I'm in the hospital room with my wife and the umbilical cord's cut and the nurse hand says, you know, "do you want to hold the baby?" I'm just like, in an emotional wreck, you know, and, and then my wife's there, and I'm just, just, you know, like, can, can, "can I?"

And the nurse is like, "of course you can, he's yours." And my first thought was, like, "no. Well, he's his own autonomous being. He's not mine." But I see what you're saying. Like, I understand the concept there, but he's his own. You know, I didn't say that out loud, thank God. But that was the thought racing through my funny. And I, I, I think about that. You know, I think that's kind of my philosophy too, of like, he's his own person.

Exactly.

There are moments that are, you know, we share that I, I would like to share more of on social, but I don't know, it's, it's especially because I have so many followers. I try, you know, it's, it's, I think, okay, you know, if I, if it was just family following me, it might be more, you know.

Yeah. I don't share my son's face online, but I shared at one point, like, a video of my husband with him on his shoulders running around, and it's like, twilight. And then I was like, "did I cheapen that nice moment by sharing it with the internet?" And then I get kind of in my head about it. It's very weird.

Well, I think some of it's like, you know, I'm. You're a proud parent. Like, I want to share these moments. I'm proud of my son. You know, like, just this weekend, there was like a, a balloon, a hot air balloon festival down the street from our, our neighborhood. And the balloons ended up landing in our neighborhood, and my son was so excited.

And, you know, I, you know, posted on Instagram. Instagram stories a little bit different to me because I'm like, it's going to disappear. All right, so let's share that happiness there. I don't know. It's, I think, I think it's, I think we need to be less critical about how people do that, sharing to a point and just kind of, I think everybody needs to make their rules for themselves on that.

Yeah, that's so true. And then there's also a difference between, like, turning their experiences into content for LinkedIn. Like, "here's what I learned when my kid wet their pants at school" or something. Like, turning something...

If I share something about my son on LinkedIn, it's more about, like, "okay, it's important for, I want to set an example to other dads of like, 'hey, I don't take meetings at 3 o'clock.'" I made a post about that. I don't take meetings at 3 o' clock because that's when I go pick up my son from the bus and it's on my schedule. I tell all my clients like that that's a non negotiable for me and it's okay. And I used to like, or I used to, you know, I made a post about how I used to. When my son was first born I would make excuses to do things.

Like I would say, you know, if my son was sick I would just be like, "oh, I've got a doctor doc, I've got to go to the doctor today." I wouldn't say my son is sick or you know, or I've got to go to. I would say I've got an appointment and my son has a...because I want to go to a baseball game for my son. You know, and now I'm just, I'm beyond that. Like I shouldn't have to. I'm going to say, oh, I'm not. My son has a baseball game or I've got a parent teacher conference. I'm going to and be vocal about that, that I'm taking off work to be a parent.

And I think, I think by doing that, that as a father it makes hopefully makes it easier for mothers to do the same in the workplace. I don't know if it does or not but I, that's fine.

To normalize it. I'm curious if you feel like becoming a parent has changed you in any ways? or like made you a better version of yourself? is something I hear online sometimes.

I always want to be a good example for him. So it has changed, you know, a lot has changed.

I especially as a social media manager, it came, became, became very apparent that I was not going to be able to be on call online 24/7 the way I, I had been before. You know, I thought, oh yeah, I can still have some phone, baby's sleeping, I'm holding it and I can do my job. And it's like, no, you can't do that.

I think that really has helped some of my, my work life balance where it's just like before, you know, we had a son, you know, it was like, yeah, I can work all weekend now. It's like, no, I, I cannot, I, I've got a child to take care of.

So what parts of parenthood tend to bring you the most joy?

Oh. Oh, man. Seeing him grow, like, it's just at every age, he's a little bit different, you know, seeing him become his own person and develop his own opinions. Watching him learn on his own a bit. He's really into Greek mythology.

And I, you know, my master's degree is in literature, so I'm all about that stuff, but I didn't, you know, there was a unit in his school class about it, and, like. And then we just started doing it together and learning more about it. And, you know, he would learn stuff that, like, man, I didn't even know that.

And that, to me, that's just the coolest. I love that. And I love being able to connect with him over those things. Or there's just no better feeling than that, or watching him, like, his humor develop, like he can actually form a joke now, and it's like, oh, wow, that's something. So...

that's awesome. Is he excited for your book to come out?

He has no idea. No, not really. He's more excited. And I haven't talked about this. I'm going to be working on season two of Beast Games with Mr. Beast, so he's really excited about that. So I'm excited too, because that's the first sort of thing we can kind of watch together a bit.

And he was never really into it before, but all his friends at school were, so when he heard that, that I was gonna work on that job, he was like, "dad, you're cool." All right. I'm gonna say that into the microphone so I can have that. When you're a teenager. That's not gonna happen again. So that. That's always, always kind of fun.

Do you guys have anything fun you're looking forward to this fall as a family right now?

We went to China over the summer. My wife's from China, and we went to China for the first time to visit her family. And now her parents are here staying with us for three months, so we're going all around, and they don't speak any English, and my son's learning Chinese and he's getting to interact with them, and that. That's really exciting, a lot of fun. So, you know, and. And also to. To show them around. You know, our home and our hometown i, is really exciting, so I'll be doing that for them. They, they've been here about two weeks now, so about two and a half more months. So, yeah, it'll be nice.

That sounds fun. Well, thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Yeah, anytime. Always love to talk shop.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.