Summary

In this episode of the Investing with Integrity Podcast, host Jeff Talarico interviews Lauren Graham, a published author and financial advisor specializing in faith-based investing. They discuss Loran's journey in the financial services industry, the three-story house analogy for faith-based investing, the importance of stewardship, and the challenges and opportunities in the market. Lauren shares his insights on performance, the fear of embracing faith-based investing, and the future of the industry.

Takeaways

Faith-based investing is an act of worship and an opportunity to honor God in all areas of life, including finances.

Investing should be guided by biblical values and principles, focusing on relationships, outflows (spending and giving), and inflows (earning and investing).

Performance is important in investing, but it should be viewed in the context of long-term goals and the stewardship of God's resources.

There is a growing demand for faith-based advisors, and younger generations are more open to embracing faith-based investing from the start of their careers.

Investing in companies that align with biblical values can have a positive impact on the economy and society as a whole.

The market is unpredictable, but historical data shows that it has consistently grown over time, and faith-based investing can be a part of that growth.

Get Loran's Book "Investing with Integrity" here: https://www.amazon.com/Investing-Integrity-Expanded-Loran-Graham/dp/0692177078

Investing with Integrity Episode 14 Loran Graham

Welcome to the Investing with Integrity Podcast. My name is Jeff Talarico I am your host. Today we have Loran Graham with us today. Loran is a published author, CKA, CPA, and CFP, and has operated his own independent professional practice specializing in faith -based investing for over a decade. In past years, Loran has been an invited guest speaker at the Kingdom Advisors National Conference, helping other advisors embrace faith -based investing. More recently,

Now in his free time, which with three teenagers, I don't know how he has any, he enjoys the great outdoors and flying as a licensed private pilot. Loran, welcome to the show. We're glad you're here with us today.

Thanks, Jeff. It's an honor to be here and just hearing you read that bio, it's humbling just to think how God has used me in just a small way, hopefully, for this movement of faith -based investing. But it's a privilege to be a guest on your show, and thanks for having me.

No problem at all, Loran. I'm glad you were finally able to get some time in your schedule to be part of what we're doing, because it's all advancing the kingdom of God. So let's start off. I'm going to ask you something that is interesting about yourself that most people might not know.

Sure, well, the last part of your introduction, a lot of people don't know that I'm a licensed private pilot. So it's something that has been a lifelong dream. I have memories flying with my dad as a little kid. And so I kind of got the bug from my dad and had some kind of a special sentimental value for me wanting to do that. But it was an accomplishment. I was able to.

earned my ticket as a pilot a couple of years ago and kind of a highlight kind of wrapped up in that pastime. Unfortunately, my dad, he passed away last summer from cancer, but about a month and a half before he passed, we were able to arrange a special flight with him so that I could take my dad up and that was really meaningful to me to be able to do that.

Cool. That's something that you'll remember forever. And that's a, it's a beautiful thing to have done something with your dad like that, that you grew up doing with him. So that's something that you'll remember that forever, Loran. That's pretty awesome. So you and I actually first met at a, I believe it was Guidestone event in Dallas, Texas, probably seven, eight years ago, maybe. And it's been, it's been really cool to, you know,

Yeah.

now have you on the show, but to see you at the Kingdom Advisor conferences over the years, to have gotten your book, to have read your book, to understand what this faith -based investment movement really is all about. Coming from another advisor, more so than one of the houses that we do business with, you know, Timothy Plan, Eventide those kinds of things. So having another advisor on the show is going to be really good for us because it's going to give a different perspective. So tell us, you know, how did you get started in the financial services industry to begin with?

Yeah, sort of by accident. I was, you know, originally my career was on a, an accounting pathway as a CPA and working with a large public auditor firm, accounting firm. And one of our, one of my audit clients was a, a institutional investment house in Los Angeles area. And, uh, uh, was.

honored to get the invitation to become their controller. They needed some in -house accounting help. I was working with the CFO and doing the accounting for him and everything, but then all the excitement and all the fun was happening in the securities, the stock picking and everything. That was where all the fun was. I was able to get my securities licensing. Then when I moved to the Pacific Northwest,

you know, was really praying, asking God, you know, how can I use this institutional knowledge that I have? There aren't a lot of big institutional firms in, you know, Spokane, Washington, but I really felt God calling me to see how I could help individuals and families, you know, and take that skill set. So that was my big leap into launching a financial planning practice. And so essentially,

starting from zero and just trusting God would lead me along the way. So that was just over 16 years ago that I began that journey as a financial planner. And it's been neat to see, just reflecting back on all the lessons learned and we all make some wrong turns along the way, but just how, and God's graciousness, here we are and just.

So it's such an honor to get to know these families and be a voice in their lives and just watch them go through milestones. And sometimes good, sometimes bad. We just had, we have two clients that are where they have adult children that are facing terminal illnesses. And it's, to be able just to pray together, to cry together, it's just been, I just, I thank God for that privilege to be.

just in that role. So.

That's some of the greatest joy that I think we all can experience as a financial advisor, when we can actually be there for our clients, when we can hug their necks, when we can actually, like you said, cry with them. I have really great relationships with my clients and there's no doubt in my mind that you do as well. And it's being able to be that voice and that friend in trying to help explain what happens. I mean,

God is still sovereign, he's still God and his plan does something we don't know or understand fully. And when something like an adult child having a terminal illness happens, being there for them and being their pillar is just something that we have the privilege to do. So I commend you for that too, Loran, and realizing that as part of what we do, it's not about money.

Right, that's not, yeah, I was just actually just this Sunday at church the sermon was on expectations and on Palm Sunday, you know, yesterday. And so, you know, how what the Israelites' expectations of Christ were as he was entering the city, you know, I think they didn't really see that coming. But.

I think it was John 16 where the scripture that talks about Jesus said, you know, in this world there will be trials and sorrows. And so, and we face that, you in the markets about every, you know, eight or nine years. But, you know, just be able to just to be there and try to speak some timeless wisdom. It's been a neat journey. And it was only about a...

really not even a year into my professional practice. And I was following the certified financial planning principles and everything, but it was just within the first really six months of the practice that I discovered Kingdom Advisors and that there was a link on how to integrate faith with advice. And that was a game changer for me.

So you've been basically in this faith driven movement, this biblically responsible investing type movement for most of your career then.

Yeah, yeah, I think it was, well here I've got the 2000, sorry, I'm just looking at, yeah, June of 2009. I'm just looking up on my KA certificate there. June of 2009 was when I, you know, they then called it you know, qualified Kingdom Advisor, now it's certified Kingdom Advisor, but so it was that early, early training. And then, yeah, I went to the, it was the last KA conference that they hosted in Atlanta.

There you go.

in that 2009 timeframe. And there were like 300 people at the conference. I just got back from Florida where they were, I saw you there, but we were among like 3000 people there and it's just how it's grown is fantastic. But you mentioned some of the investment houses that we rely upon to implement faith -based investing. They had...

booths at that conference. And it's the first time I'd ever heard of the idea that you could even not only follow biblical financial planning principles, but also invest in a way that reflects faith and values. And so it was a complete paradigm shift. And I remember calling my best friend at the time. He was running his own hedge fund in New York, but we were

high school and college friends at UCLA. And he, I remember calling him and I said, David, I just found my life passion. Like this is it. This is what I need to be doing. And it's been a neat journey from there, but that was, yeah, a little while ago.

Pretty amazing story there. Now, in your book, you start out right from the beginning in chapter one, talking about this three story house. Can you explain that so our listeners, I want them to go get your book, of course, but at least give them a teaser of what that means and how that is implemented in your practice.

Yeah, you bet. I always, you know, and you know, having kind of a reformed theology background, you know, understanding that everything we do is sacred in life, you know, everything that we do is an act of worship. And, and how and trying to understand how investing fits into the framework of our everyday faith driven activities, or how we live, how we how we use money and.

how we give money and how we invest money. And so I was trying to come up with something, you know, clever and, you know, that, that would make a good analogy. And I just remember thinking, okay, Christ is a foundation of everything. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, foundations are, you know, what you put a house on. So I was like, wait, I kind of went from there, but I, um, the idea is though, is that, um, you know, the first level of house is, um, our relationships, the greatest commandment, you know, to love the Lord, our God and.

to love our neighbor as ourselves. And that, and it doesn't, you know, God doesn't call us to judge our neighbor to measure, but to love, you know, how do we love our neighbor? And that's relationship. And that's, you know, in every area of life, you know, Christ modeled that for us, you know, with the disciples, what, you know, the greatest love is this that you lay down your life for your friends, you know, and forgiveness and all that. And so, so we do the best we can to love our neighbor.

forgive our neighbor imperfectly because we're human and we're fallen and we're gonna sin and we're gonna have to ask forgiveness. And it's, you know, that's, but that's the great, the great thing about that foundation of Christ is that he did that work on the cross and it's appropriate that next, this coming Sunday is we celebrate that resurrection Sunday that that work that he accomplished on the cross covers, you know, our past.

present and future sins that the work is done. There's nothing we can do to earn God's favor anymore because he loves us already. And that because of Christ, we can have reconciliation relationship with our Father. So that's an important acknowledgement that it's imperfect, that we're doing the best we can. The Lord.

is with us and is walking with us and he'll pick us up when we fall down, you know, and that's, but to love our neighbor and as ourselves, that's kind of the first story. And then the second story was, okay,

because of what Christ is on the cross and because we have accepted him and are in relationship with him, how do we handle money differently in light of that? You know of course, you know, so the second story of the house was our outflows, you know, how we give money, how we spend money, the types of businesses we choose to patronize, you know, as believers, you know, based on what they stand for and different things. So that's all the second story of the house. And then,

But there's this, and that's where most people live, like a lot of the biblical financial stewardship, educational materials and books out there all kind of in this area, you know, how do you budget and your tithing and giving and spending and all that. So that's, and that's where all the, you know, we've all read a lot of materials in that area. But the third story of the house is almost like kind of this attic, this like this extra.

story that was kind of discovered that it's like, hey, wait, what about how we earn money and invest money, you for if we're being, you know, and again, the spending is imperfect, you know, like, everybody's gonna blow the budget once in a while. And, oh, you know, Lord, forgive me how to dig out of this, you know, and, or, but you know, we're faithful to tithe, we're faithful to try to, you know, live responsibly as good stewards, you know, within our means, spending less than we earn as Ron Blue would say, then,

That's an expression of worship. It's not to earn God's favor or a gold star, but it's an expression of worship. And so the third story of the house is about how we earn money, and that's where the investments come in. But just like relationships and spending is going to be an imperfect process, investing is the heart behind it that's important. And God sees our heart, and that's what's important. And so in earnest, if we're trying to honor Him,

in every area of life, you know, going back to that, everything is sacred, then that kind of completes the construction, if you will.

I like the word that you chose to reference all three of these stories. You called it stewarding. Stewarding relationships, stewarding resources, stewarding how we earn money. Because stewarding is exactly what we're supposed to be doing. How do we steward these treasures that God has allowed us to have here? And it's a great part of the Christian journey and the Christian story. One of the things you mentioned is it's the heart behind it. So this is where...

Sure.

Amen.

A lot of times in the BRI space, in the faith -based space, we have seen brothers in arms battle on what's the hard say? What does God really say about this? So we have some screens that are just negative screens, screens everything in the world out, and then we have some that only screen out certain things. So you talk about this in your book, in what was the chapter called? Defining what is good. Okay. And...

Oh sure, yeah.

you gave a pretty good idea of the screening process that you guys use, and I'm assuming you're still using that. So how does that look for you? How do you play that off when you have a client that says, no, I really, really, really want to own this stock or this company?

Yeah, so I actually really appreciate how the different investment managers have their own unique screening process. And some companies put more emphasis on some screens than others. One fund family that comes to mind is

just really lasered in on the abortion screen and sanctity of life screen that they will not own any companies that, of course, manufacture the abortifacients but also really dig deep on the Planned Parenthood donations and try to avoid companies that are using corporate shareholder dollars for those nonprofit donations that really are pretty controversial. And that's at best. But.

So, so some funds are really great at that. Others are really great at the, you know, the impact screens on how to, how to not just avoid companies, but actually leverage and lean into these companies and get enough capital behind them that they actually can earn the right to sit down across the table from the CEO.

or from the board and say, hey, these are the concerns that we have. You have a great product. You have a great company. Why are you donating to Planned Parenthood? Can we please stop that? And they listen. They'll listen. And so they've had great success with that. So there's two totally different approaches. One is avoidance, the negative screen. The other is a positive.

affecting change strategy. And then I like kind of the third component, which is not just the company's product or service, but it's their relationship in the ecosystem that they live. So it's looking at, okay, are these companies also dealing ethically with their employees, their customers, their supply chains? Are they stewarding the environment in a way that's not leaving a wake of destruction?

in their path that they're actually stewarding their resources in ways that are reflected in biblical values also. So I love, so all these different companies together, and if I was really taking it, this is more important, instead of weighing one over the other, I just kind of take them all together and say, this is sort of the mosaic, the stained glass window mosaic that represents the church.

and different ways of doing things. But in the end, the heart of it is all good, that it's all trying to honor God with how they approach investing. And so I'm comfortable with those differences.

Good. That's, you know, I think we're a lot on the same page with this. We know these companies, we've dealt with these companies, we've, you know, broke bread with these companies and understanding why their money managers do what they do and how they do it is easy for us to then turn around and explain to clients. So let's change gears for a second here. Let's talk about performance because that seems to always be one that our guests like to talk about. So how do these proponents of biblically responsible investing or faith based in VEX?

investing, reconcile the tension sometimes that happens between a client's misunderstanding, if you will, of performance when they break down a fund into something so specific.

Yeah, so performance is, you know, it's part of good stewardship. We want to aim for the best returns we can, you know, for each client's level of risk tolerance and needs and objectives. But at the same time, do so in a way that's honoring God and part of our act of worship. So it's definitely important. We can't just ignore performance. You I do. And, you know, our clients...

They don't ignore it either. So we have to, so I, I, what I found is, and I actually, I still, you know, I hold this philosophy and it's borrowed from actually Sir John Templeton who originally I think formed this thought that, and there's a lot of logic to it. It makes a lot of sense that if a good, if a company has a great product or service and they're, they're meeting a real need in the world.

and they're doing it well with integrity and ethics. They're treating their employees ethically, their customers ethically, and doing things the right way for the right reason that ultimately those companies will be more profitable than companies that are just narrow -minded on short -term profits and cutting corners to try to make numbers look better and everything. So.

Um, so I do believe that philosophy that the, the, adding these faith based, um, considerations actually enhances the potential for return, um, rather than, uh, being a, a source of, um, drag, you know, that that's holding it back actually believe that the portfolios would do better long -term because of, um, because of the focus. Um, that being said, you know, when we're, when we're tied to,

you know, passive benchmarks, there's going to be this yin and yang, you know, where sometimes, you know, the faith -based portfolios look better and sometimes, you know, the secular benchmarks can look better. And, um, but the key is, you know, over the long -term, you know, over the five -year, 10 -year, 20 -year averages, um, and it's exciting that we actually are not that far away from having 20 -year averages in the space, um, that, um, I'm confident that, um,

that a lot of the differences just kind of smooth out over time. But I know a lot of focus this last quarter on the Magnificent 7 and how tech is just pulling the whole market. And so just reminding clients that, yeah, we're going to be diversified. And the understanding how the S & P is built and how just a handful of companies can be almost a third of the entire.

performance, that's not always going to be the case, but that's just the weird place that the market is right now. So having to have a few conversations to help people understand if they're not in some of those big tech names because of the faith screens that may look unattractive now, but over time, the market tends to get ahead of itself and overexcited about things. So.

everything kind of comes back into, everything eventually comes back into balance. So right now the, you know, it's a little out of balance.

does?

You know, it's, it's pretty amazing that we both deal with some high net worth clients and they don't even understand sometimes what is in the Dow Jones. They don't realize it's only 30 stocks. And here we are living and breathing and dying and by what the Dow does on a daily basis, you know, the stock market drops 600 points. And all of a sudden, everyone thinks that, that the world's crashing down and it's not, it's 30 stocks. It's not representative of everything. So.

It's interesting that you said that about the S&P and I'm glad you did because it is so unbalanced from what it really started as being. Let's go ahead.

Yeah, well, we have these benchmarks here because you have to measure something, but I think it really plays on that FOMO, fear of missing out mentality. And so I find it's helpful to kind of try to refocus the client's perspective or attention on not just comparing. Because know, Bible has some things to say about that too. It's not good to compare that to others. But we...

But just to focus on, OK, this is what the Lord entrusts to you. Why are we investing in the first place? It's because you're trying to steward what he's entrusted to you, accomplish family goals. You use money as a tool for God given purposes to teach, educate, and prepare the next generation for stewardship. And really trying to ask the question, OK, this is the path that we're on and we can earn a.

respectable return for their risk, comfort, uh, without taking too much risk and accomplish all these goals. And they can't spend it all during their lifetime and they can't take it with them. So in the end, it's going to go onto the next generation or to hopefully, you know, fun kingdom causes and, um, and just kind of point them back to what's the purpose of all this in the first place. It's not, uh, it's not a horse race. It's, it's, it's a finish line, you know? And so, um,

Now that brings us to Ron Blue's famous quote, how much is enough and what are you going to do with the rest? So let's talk about you own your company. You've been in business now for almost two decades at this point, correct?

Great, that's right. So.

Yes, we're in our 17th year, so.

So how is it that you get to bring your faith to work every day? And do you find joy and satisfaction in that? And tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, I do. I remember early on actually just right after I basically committed to moving down the road of faith -based investing and rebranding and really just putting a stake in the ground. This is what we're all about. I remember getting a call out of the blue, invitation to lunch and it was with a big warehouse and

and a friend that I'd gotten to know and a mentor in some ways, and had offered me to be basically like a junior partner in a billion dollar practice. But these are mostly institutional clients and you're going to have to not spend time in the biblically responsible investing area. You'd have to step away from that.

because that's not what this practice is about. And I almost felt like I was being invited up to the mountaintop and this all could be yours if you just walk away. And I prayed about it, I wrestled with it, because at the time I was just struggling to get the practice off the ground and rice and beans and diet and just trying to balance the books. And I really prayed, I said, no, this is...

And my friend that I called, he's also my accountability partner, still is. We have a call every two weeks just to pray together and check in. But he reminded me of that excited call. I called him from the KA conference on the way to the airport. He said, this is your passion and your calling. So, you

what do you think God would want you to do? And I was like, oh. So then I just kept moving forward and trusting God with the result and he's been faithful to allow us to come this far. And I'm still good friends with that advisor and I think they're at two or three billion now and that's okay, but it's been neat to see this journey that God's had me on. And...

So I trust him completely. Every time I see that there's a tough market or a global pandemic, for example, or things that, all the rough patches in my life, I've seen evidence of God's presence. And he's definitely at work in the world and in his kingdom. So it's humbling to just that he allows us to be a part of it.

So let's change gears here for a second. And why do you think other CKA members, other Kingdom Advisor members, other advisors like us that have a hard time truly embracing BRI or faith -based investments?

I think it's maybe a little bit of fear of the unknown. I mean, I try to reflect back on what was holding me back. And it was the advice I got at the time from several people that, well, there's not a large enough market to have a practice that it's entirely dedicated to just faith -based, that you have to be broader and appeal to more people. And...

And that, you there's not enough demand, you know, to be sustainable. But, um, and I, you know, was in my faith journey. I just kind of, you know, decided to commit the practice to faith -based and burn the ships behind me. Cause I knew myself, I knew I might second guess myself for like, wait a minute, is this the right thing? So I just said, nope, we're going all in. And, uh, but there is so much demand. Uh, the need is.

is great and the workers are few because at the end of the day, one financial advisor really only has capacity maybe to serve 200 households. I think the real number of the research says more like 150, I think is the number, just how God created our minds and our capacity for relationship is similar research for how many.

people can pastor shepherd and still remember everybody's names. But I think so, you know, I'm pretty certain there's at least 150 to 200 people out there that can't find a faith -based advisor that and they would love to be part of that. And so I found that the that that that.

That fear of not being able to be successful or that the practice is going to wither and die is I think, you know, largely from the enemy that he doesn't want us to take a, you know, take a step forward because it can have real impact in the economy and the world. You know, like another favorite quote of Ron Blues, I like to say is, you he used to say all the time, if you change Wall Street, you change the world.

I really believe that. And so it's actually kind of starting to happen. It's really neat. So.

Yeah, Mark Mannella, I don't know if you know Mark with Faith Investor Services, he is starting this new campaign and it's called Rescue 1T. He wants to start and just get just get $1 trillion out of the secular side of Wall Street and into the faith based side of Wall Street. And I think that's a great initiative to start there.

Yeah, that's amazing. We're probably not that far from accomplishing that, I would trust. So yeah, I think fear is part of it. And then just having to learn a new way of doing things, especially advisors that are on the sunset side of their career and getting ready to pass the torch. But I see a lot of excitement with the younger.

generation of advisors that just want to start that way from the get -go. And so I think there's a tremendous opportunity. And I always said that clients, they come to us because they trust us. They trust us for advice, but also there's that trust relationship. And so if we come to a client really excited about something and say, hey, I think this is really important and...

you know, are you willing to trust me on this and come with me on this? And I think, you know, they're going to pick up on that excitement and energy. And if we come to the client and say, you know, I'm really nervous about this, but I've been thinking a lot about this. I'm not sure which way to go, but what do you think? You know, and they're going to be like, I don't know.

Yeah, if you don't, if you don't like it, or you're not excited about it, I'm not going to be excited about it.

Right, and so I think it's just having that conviction and confidence and then just trusting it's the Lord. I think it's better to find a lot more success in those conversations than they might think.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, we have this younger generation coming out that is phenomenal and it all starts in the college campuses. I mean, you were just at Kingdom Advisors. We had almost 300 college kids there that are at various institutions throughout this country learning the Kingdom Advisor approach to investing and that's phenomenal. Liberty University is doing a great job and there's many, many more out there that are doing it as well. So,

amazing.

Let's look at your crystal ball for a second. Where do you think the market's heading in the next five to 10, 15 years?

Well, I threw my crystal ball away a long time ago, but I think people are trying to fish it out of the waste can. You know, I don't know where it's going to go, but if history is any guide, I was actually just looking at this the other day with the client. But in April of 2020, and that was, so this was before the recovery.

Right in the middle of the pandemic, you know, the S &P 500 and the Dow Jones are both down close to 50%. And everybody was, you know, it's just a very unique time in history. But I did this webinar with Eventide and Jason presented. But he, and this is actually, I need to give credit.

almost not perfect, but a very strong correlation that this is a very clear average. And that data was showing that the market has over that period of time averaged about six and a half percent real return. So return minus inflation, which kind of jives with what we always expect. You know, the S &P is somewhere in that nine to 10 percent average annual range and inflation and the three to three and a half percent range. But that was the history. 150 years and.

And you kind of, the zigzags that were kind of around the average line, Jason kind of painted this picture of, you imagine somebody walking their dog through Central Park, New York, and they're on a sidewalk path that's taking them across the park to their favorite coffee shop on the other end. But they're walking their dog and the dog's on a long leash. And so the dog's like sniffing the flowers and running circles and...

zigzagging and you know all over the place but the owner just got that leash and he's on his way to the coffee shop and he like in the stock market it's kind of like the dog you know like all over the place you know but the but the average is like the owner you know walking the dog and so the the coin phrase was you know keep your eye on the owner keep your eye on the owner not the dog you know keep keep your eye on the owner but I love the kind of the double meaning there.

keep your eye on the owner because ultimately, God owns it all and these are his money, his investments. And so if we keep our eye on the owner, we're gonna make much better decisions, less anxiety. And so, that was the, you know this phrase by heart, the compliance phrase, past performance is not a guarantee of future results, but.

Yeah, love that.

150 years is a long time and think about everything that's happened in that time. It's post -Civil War reconstruction, World War I, World War II, a Great Depression in there, every kind of possible calamity you can think of and yet the free market capital system keeps marching forward. It's adaptable, it survives and changes and grows to adapt to its environment. So...

So I can't give you that crystal ball number. I have a lot of confidence in the free market system. And if we make decisions within that system guided by faith, I think, and follow, you know, wisdom principles, I think, God will honor that.

Absolutely. Well, I've had Jason on the show, so I'm very familiar with him. I love him. In fact, I think I offered that same webinar to our clients as well, and it was great. Great show. So, all right, let's get down to the last couple of questions here. If there were three people dead or alive that you could have a conversation with, who would they be and why? And you can't say Jesus.

Yeah.

I can't say Jesus. Interesting. Well, um.

Yeah, so three people I think if I could have a conversation with. Well, one would be Ulysses S. Grant, I think, the former US president in general. I would say him because I was really fascinated reading his biography by, oh.

I think it's Isaac Walterson. I think the same, he wrote the biography for Steve Jobs and a few other, but it was, I remember I handed my book, my book, you know, to a client through the, hey, I thought, you know, you'd like to read this. And so when I met him for coffee, the next time he brought that book, and if you've seen the book, it's like a thousand pages, but so he was getting me back, but it's, but it's like, but it was just a fascinating journey, you know, his leadership and.

life story, I would love to sit down with him for a little bit. Abraham Lincoln is like also before I, same area I guess, but again, just on leadership and faith and when everyone's against you, how do you rise above all that in the short amount of time he was with us or on this earth I should say. Third person, gosh.

Um...

I had maybe Martin Luther, actually. All these leaders that change the whole mindset, or change the direction of humanity, I guess. But that would be really neat to learn from him, I guess.

Rerformer.

Those are three great people. I admire you for those. I mean, two definitely changed the course of our country. And then, of course, Martin Luther changed the course of Christianity as we know it today, I believe. So those are great. All right. So the last question, what didn't I ask you that you're just dying to talk about?

Yeah, absolutely.

Ooh, well, let's see, we've covered a lot. I think one thing that we didn't touch on, but I think is important, and it's kind of the underpinning of faith -based investing, and that is, investing has evolved so much. There are all these new ways to invest.

It used to be that you just invest in individual companies. I won't mention the names, I guess, but if you invested in a certain soda pop, everybody, the Coke versus Pepsi taste test, you'd have this connection with the company or the product if you use the product a lot. And I really liked that product.

But as investing has become in some ways more sophisticated and complex, we've lost that connection with the individual companies and the products. So whether it's through mutual funds or ETFs or these just passive indices where you just own the whole market, you know, and it's been, or the technical analysis where it's...

investing is just charts and lines and graphs and trends and doesn't matter what the companies are anymore. I think that disconnect has allowed companies to kind of get away with, you know, a lot of bad behavior. And and and so I think that my hope is that, you know, as faith based investing really continues to grow and take off that that that connection between the investor and the

the actual corporation becomes stronger and more transparent that we come back to understanding what is investing, you know, when you boil it down, it's investing in a company that makes real goods and real services that are trying to, you know, improve humanity in some way or contribute to human flourishing is, you know, how one company says it, which I love. And, and,

I think that'll go a long way toward companies being more responsible. They're not citizens, but being responsible participants in community.

they'd be stewards. Simple as that. So where can people get your book?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's on Amazon. It's also the publisher, Kingdom Life Publishing. So if you just search Kingdom Life, Kingdom Life Publishing has bulk order discounts too. It's meant to be an educational book to directly to investors. And the call to action in the book is to pray about it, talk to your pastor if you're not sure. And...

talk to your financial advisor. So really it supports existing relationships. You know, it's not an 800 call is doing whatever, you know, marketing. It's just so other other, there are actually quite a few advisors that use it in their practices to help educate their clients. And it's not, you know, competitive with us, even though we have, we have a practice in the Northwest. But so, so I encourage, you know, folks have clients are just wanting to understand it better. It's a great tool to.

It's a light read, it's not technical, so hopefully it'll make a dent in the universe that way.

for our listeners, I will put those links in the show notes so you can go directly to Amazon or to his publishing company and take a look at those books there. Loran, thank you again for your time. I know that it's pressing and I really appreciate it. I'm honored that you chose to be on our show today.

That's my pleasure, Jeff. Thank you for having me and blessings to you. Okay, thanks.

All right, God bless. We'll talk to you soon.