Shownotes
State of the Second hosts John and Kaylee sit down with Jared from Sonoran Desert Institute (SDI) for a conversation about the state of gunsmithing in 2025 and how new people get into the trade. Jared is SDI's chief academic officer. SDI is an online college that teaches gunsmithing and uncrewed technology like drone piloting and fleet administration. The episode opens with a rapid fire segment covering Jared's everyday carry, a strict no-impulse-buy rule he shares with his wife, a 3D-printed articulated chicken for his daughter, and a recent weekend spent finishing one of his own rifles.
Most of the episode digs into why gunsmiths are getting harder to find and what that means for the industry. Jared explains that the old path into the trade, picking up mechanical skills through shop class, farm machinery, or working on cars, has thinned out as schools dropped shop and home ec. Many students now arrive wanting to build a gun they saw in a video game, with no base hands-on skills. At the same time, veteran gunsmiths are passing away, and the next generation hasn't fully stepped in. SDI's answer is online education that ships a lab to the student's living room so the hands-on work still happens. Jared and the hosts also walk through the rise of faceless, factory-driven design, the loss of named gunsmith legends like P.O. Ackley and Elmer Keith, and why people are starting to crave bespoke, personal work again.
Jared makes the case that gunsmithing teaches transferable skills, woodworking, welding, machining, metal finishing, that lead graduates into many industries, and that the trades broadly are short on people, the same way it's hard to find a plumber right now. He frames education as a baseline plus continuous learning, not a finish line at graduation. On the policy side, he notes SDI operates in roughly 46 states, sometimes blocked by firearms law and sometimes by education law, and praises states like Arkansas for putting firearms education back into public schools. The episode closes with where to find SDI (SDI.edu and social), a guest gift from Palmetto State Armory and AAC Ammo, and a reminder about the GOALS summit in Knoxville, Tennessee on August 9th and 10th.
Links
Questions this episode answers
What is the Sonoran Desert Institute (SDI) and how does it teach a hands-on trade like gunsmithing online?
Sonoran Desert Institute is an online college that teaches gunsmithing along with uncrewed technology like drone piloting and fleet administration. It keeps the trade hands-on by shipping a physical lab to the student so the practical work still happens at home.
Why are gunsmiths getting harder to find, and what has happened to the traditional path into the trade?
The old on-ramp of building mechanical skills through shop class, farm machinery, or working on cars has thinned out as schools dropped shop and home economics. At the same time veteran gunsmiths are passing away and the next generation has not fully stepped in, so many students now arrive with no base hands-on skills.
How does SDI handle the lab side of gunsmithing if students are learning from home?
SDI sends a lab kit to each student so the hands-on portion of gunsmithing happens in their own living room. As Jared puts it, the school can place both the classroom and the lab where the student already is.
What skills does gunsmithing teach that carry over into other industries and careers?
Gunsmithing builds transferable trade skills like woodworking, welding, machining, and metal finishing that lead graduates into many industries. Jared frames the trades broadly as short on people, the same way it is hard to find a plumber right now.
Why have the big-name gunsmith designers largely disappeared from the industry?
The industry has shifted toward faceless, factory-driven design, and named gunsmith legends like P.O. Ackley and Elmer Keith have passed without clear successors. Jared and the hosts note that demand for bespoke, personal work is starting to return as a result.
How do state and federal rules affect where an online gunsmithing school can operate?
SDI operates in roughly 46 states, sometimes blocked by firearms law and sometimes by education law. Jared praises states like Arkansas for putting firearms education back into public schools.
Can the average gun owner customize and personalize their firearm, or is that only for experts?
Many first-time owners do not realize a firearm can be customized and made their own, which is part of why demand for bespoke work is growing. The episode frames customization and personal work as increasingly accessible rather than reserved for specialists.
What does Jared carry every day, and why does one of his firearms have sentimental value?
His everyday carry is a Smith & Wesson Shield or a Smith & Wesson airweight revolver. The Shield is engraved and tied to his old school, which gives it personal meaning.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome and meet Jared from SDI
- 00:19 — Rapid fire: EDC, impulse buys, 3D printing
- 02:32 — Last build: a weekend on his own AR-10
- 03:09 — Why the AR-10 isn't standardized
- 05:06 — Working on old guns and off-brand designs
- 06:36 — Sears, J.C. Higgins, and slam-fire shotguns
- 11:36 — What SDI is: putting the classroom and lab at home
- 13:35 — The future of gunsmiths and the training gap
- 18:55 — Veterans and career-changers into the trade
- 21:05 — Losing the named gunsmith legends
- 26:01 — Bespoke work, customization, and accessibility
- 30:22 — From the Soapbox: training and state education law
- 37:50 — Trades opportunity and learning as a baseline
- 48:02 — Where to find SDI and show close
About the guest
Jared is the chief academic officer at Sonoran Desert Institute (SDI), an online college that teaches gunsmithing and uncrewed technology such as drone piloting and fleet administration. He came to SDI about four years ago, and before that worked with an on-ground school in Colorado in the gunsmithing space. Earlier in his career he worked in the watch and jewelry industry. He is former military and holds multiple degrees. His everyday carry is a Smith & Wesson Shield, engraved and tied to his old school, or a Smith & Wesson airweight revolver. His daughter raises chickens for 4-H.
Key quotes
"education is going away from four walls." — Jared
"I can put the classroom in their living room." — Jared
"we actually send kids out to our students and put the lab in their living room as well." — Jared
"what we now see is students that played a video game and they want to build the gun from the video game." — Jared
"It's hard to find a gunsmith right now, you know, because we just as a country haven't focused on those jobs." — Jared
"the idea with any educational environment is to give you a baseline to start with and then get you out in the world doing it." — Jared
"a lot of first time gun owners might not even be aware that you can customize something, that you can make something your own." — Kaylee
Transcripts
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kaylee.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today we're joined by Jared from Sonoran Desert.
Speaker B:Insert to Jared, how are you today?
Speaker C:Doing well, John.
Speaker C:Thanks for having me on.
Speaker C:Interested to see where today goes.
Speaker B:I'm super excited for this one.
Speaker B:Let's go ahead and start off with our rapid fire segment.
Speaker B:We're going to ask you five questions.
Speaker B:You can answer them for us.
Speaker B:And let's go ahead and start off with.
Speaker B:What is your edc?
Speaker C:So it depends.
Speaker C:I've got two.
Speaker C:Sometimes it's a Smith and we're in shield.
Speaker C:Sometimes it's a Smith and Wesson airweight.
Speaker C:I know, I'm an old guy.
Speaker C:Revolvers are still fun.
Speaker C:So One of those two is.
Speaker C:Is usually with me.
Speaker B:Is it the standard Gen1 shield or is it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:Funny enough, it's a.
Speaker C:A piece that we had engraved from my old school.
Speaker C:And so it's got some sentimental value as well.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:That's awesome.
Speaker A:Yeah, awesome.
Speaker A:What's your latest impulse buy?
Speaker C:I don't do impulse buys.
Speaker C:My wife and I have a very strict got to sleep on it.
Speaker C:And if it's more than $100 that we both have to agree, so.
Speaker C:So no impulse buys for me.
Speaker C:Last fun purchase, though, was a new 3D printer, so.
Speaker A:Oh, nice.
Speaker B:Well, in that case, what was the last thing you 3D printed?
Speaker C:Let's see.
Speaker C:It was a articulated chicken for my daughter.
Speaker C:That's awesome.
Speaker C:You know, sometimes you just have to.
Speaker C:You want them to learn things along the way, and so you get them involved.
Speaker C:And she walked in and said, hey, can we do a chicken?
Speaker C:Because she's raising chickens for 4H and said, yeah, we can do a chicken and we'll do it in multiple colors.
Speaker C:Let's do this.
Speaker C:And so that's what we ended up with.
Speaker A:That's awesome.
Speaker A:Very cool.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So farm life.
Speaker A:Favorite farm animal?
Speaker C:Farm life, yeah.
Speaker C:Growing up, I didn't have chickens.
Speaker C:I worked on farms.
Speaker C:Didn't have a farm, but worked for a lot of farmers.
Speaker C:But the chickens by far are becoming my favorite.
Speaker C:It's just fun to see you walk out there and they.
Speaker C:They come towards you.
Speaker C:I mean, it's just fun to see.
Speaker C:And eggs.
Speaker C:I mean, who can complain?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And since you're with sdi, what was the last thing you either built or gunsmith on?
Speaker C:So I did some work on one of my own rifles just this past weekend, AR and 308.
Speaker C:That was a project that had not been finished.
Speaker C:Typical gunsmith.
Speaker C:Just like Every other tradesperson, you know, you do everybody else's stuff and don't get your own done.
Speaker C:So I found a little time this past weekend and spent some time getting some of the accessories mounted that I had purchased for it and that kind of thing.
Speaker C:So new stock, new scope, that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Okay, well, since you said AR10 is there, can we petition the industry to make the AR10 standardized, please?
Speaker C:That would be awesome.
Speaker C:Amongst lots of other things that I wish we could petition the industry to standardize as a mechanic that has to work on this stuff.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's lots of things that aren't and I wish they were.
Speaker C:It'd make our lives a lot easier as the mechanic fixing things after the fact.
Speaker C:But, you know, it also keeps it interesting.
Speaker C:I can remember in school working on Mausers and I picked up a Mauser out of a trash can.
Speaker C:This will date me a little bit, you know, trash can at a hardware store.
Speaker C:And pulled it out of the safe to work on at school.
Speaker C:When I was going through gunsmithing school and man started digging into it, I'm like, okay, which model do I have and which length of firing pin and what bolt?
Speaker C:And it really opened my eyes to how much variation there is.
Speaker C:And so the standardization isn't there.
Speaker C:I wish it were.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Previously, working for a barrel manufacturer, it was always fun getting a customer service call and they're like, okay, I bought one of your AR10 barrels and it's not working.
Speaker B:I'm like, well, is it DPMs, Gen 1, Gen 2?
Speaker B:Are you going off of the Armalite spec?
Speaker B:Because this is the spec we use.
Speaker B:And they're like, I don't know, I'm sorry, I can't help you.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that's the tough part, you know, and as gunsmiths, one of the things that we do is we try to learn some really base concepts that apply across lots of different platforms.
Speaker C:And so, you know, you're, you're naming off different generation.
Speaker C:I don't know that off the top of my head anymore because, yeah, I've probably dealt with it, but I've got to go back and look it up because I'm also dealing with mausers and remington7 hundreds and, and all these other things.
Speaker C:So shotguns of various ilks.
Speaker C:And the cool thing about it, as the mechanic side of it is minus a couple of, of models of guns, most of them were developed to never wear out.
Speaker C:I mean, parts are going to wear out on them, but they should work no matter how old they are, right.
Speaker C:Which is cool until you have to work on that hundred year old, 200 year old piece that, okay, where do I get, where do I get these parts?
Speaker C:And so it's go back to the base concepts and figure out what it is and then figure out what the, what the, the fix is on it.
Speaker B:So yeah, I remember I had a guy come in with a J.C. higgins shotgun of some sort and he tried to ghost load it.
Speaker B:I was like, you can't do that on these.
Speaker B:This is not a thing.
Speaker B:This is a new concept.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:We were working with.
Speaker B:And so that was fun taking it all apart.
Speaker B:Because you had to take it, you had to take it apart to get the shell out from the, the lifter.
Speaker B:I'm like, oh, come on.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And, and the interesting part about, you know, like J.C. higgins, a lot of those were produced by other.
Speaker C:It was just a name printed on them.
Speaker C:So is it, is it a Mossberg?
Speaker C:Is it a Savage?
Speaker C:Is it.
Speaker C:What is it?
Speaker C:And, and then you can try to figure out, well, where these parts go.
Speaker C:What do these do?
Speaker C:What is unique about that one?
Speaker C:You know, and so because there's always a little bit of uniqueness no matter what, we all know a lifter, what that does.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But there's something inside of that gun that's a little bit different that you've got to go figure that specific one out to work on it.
Speaker B:So it makes me sad.
Speaker B:Have you messed with any of the J.C. higgins stuff?
Speaker B:Okay, so the sad part about.
Speaker B:So J.C. higgins was a brand.
Speaker B:I'm going to mansplain to everybody in the audience.
Speaker B:J.C. higgins was a brand sold by Sears under the J.C. higgins and the Ted Williams was another one.
Speaker B:And they.
Speaker B:Sears was the largest gun retailer in the world at one point and now they're out of business for the most part.
Speaker B:Which is funny how anti they go from pro gun to any gun and they just boop.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The downfall of Sears, I think is multifaceted.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker B:It'll be studied for years.
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker C:Well, funny enough, I think the retail portion of them has gone, but I believe the credit card arm, which is where they really made their money, is still working still.
Speaker A:I always thought it was weird though, because they were the number one manufacturer of not manufacturer, but seller of firearms.
Speaker A:And yet they were headquartered in Chicago, which even at that time was fairly anti gun and just continued to go that way.
Speaker A:And it's always, I think one of the most interesting things is to see where the big manufacturers or the big sellers are and how many of them are behind enemy lines that we might not even realize that they're dealing with a level of restriction that most people in the US would not necessarily have to deal with just because of where they were founded.
Speaker B:Well, what really irks me about it is that there were so many cool things that J.C. higgins or Sears as a whole did back in the day.
Speaker B:Gun wise.
Speaker B:I picked one up four or five years back.
Speaker B:It was on the shelf for $99 for 22.
Speaker B:It's one of the coolest 22s I've ever messed with.
Speaker B:It is, it is a Springfield Savage, which is 187s.
Speaker B:And the cool part about it, which is which, when I show it to people, they're all like, what the heck?
Speaker B:When you hold, when you fire, the bolt goes back and the trigger locks the bolt back.
Speaker B:And then when you release the trigger, the bolt goes forward.
Speaker B:And people are like, how is that legal?
Speaker B:It's like open bolt.
Speaker B:I'm like, no it's not.
Speaker B:It's one action, you firing and it's closing and they're like, that's the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
Speaker B:But there's so many like off brand designs that we don't get anymore.
Speaker C:Yeah, I've got one of my favorites is Awards Western field.
Speaker C:It's a 12 gauge shotgun.
Speaker C:Don't remember the exact model number because theirs were like seven or eight digits long, you know.
Speaker C:But yeah, we've turned it into a home defense gun over time and it just is cool.
Speaker C:But it's one of the old slam fire guns.
Speaker C:And so it's, it's that concept of I can hold the trigger back and if I run this foreign fast enough, I can make this gun run.
Speaker C:But to see it and to teach students about it, I can remember taking it into school, you know, 10 years ago or so, and, and doing a demonstration with it because a bunch of the students were like, well, I don't understand what this slam fire thing does for you.
Speaker C:Well, okay, here, think about this.
Speaker C:And I put five dummy rounds into it and ran the thing as fast as I could.
Speaker C:I had all five in a perfect rainbow just hanging in the air coming out of the gun.
Speaker C:Like you can't get five rounds off out of a shotgun without that anymore, you know, and, and they're like, oh, I get it.
Speaker C:You know, and, and to see all of that process going, so then working through the mechanics of how that works, it really was one of those eye opening things for them that was just, it was fun and it's not something you see in, in most modern shotguns anymore.
Speaker B:So yeah, I was teaching a youth rifle ray class and at the end of the, the class and everything like that.
Speaker B:So we, we went like eight weeks of just teaching you rivalry.
Speaker B:We'd have like a fun range day and I bring out my 37 with, with a, without the disconnector and slam fire and I show it to them and they're like this is the coolest thing.
Speaker B:Why don't we do this anymore?
Speaker B:Like, well, there was.
Speaker B:Somebody decided it was unsafe at some point, but it was.
Speaker B:That's one of the.
Speaker B:If you haven't slam fired a shotgun, that is one of the most fun things you can have.
Speaker C:It's one of those check boxes that yeah, it's, it's kind of rates up there with, you know, being former military.
Speaker C:I've shot a lot of cool stuff.
Speaker C:I've shot a lot of big stuff.
Speaker C:And, and that's one of those things that if you've never done it and you can get your hands on one and do it safely, you know, I'm always a proponent of doing things safely, but you should do it.
Speaker C:It's pretty cool.
Speaker B:Go ahead and kind of tell the folks what SDI is and what you do there and all that stuff.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So Sonoran Desert Institute is an online college.
Speaker C:And so we teach gunsmithing and we also teach the uncrewed technology side.
Speaker C:So think drones piloting, fleet administration, that kind of stuff with the, with the concept being.
Speaker C:And part of the reason I came to SDI being that education is going away from four walls.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I don't need to be constricted by a classroom anymore to educate people.
Speaker C:And so the online medium gives us a way to reach people no matter where they're at.
Speaker C:I can put the classroom in their living room.
Speaker C:Well, the hard part there is how do I put the lab?
Speaker C:Because gunsmithing is a hands on piece.
Speaker C:And so we actually send kids out to our students and put the lab in their living room as well.
Speaker C:And so very cool concept, very interesting way to do trades education.
Speaker C:And so I'm the chief academic officer at Snoring Desert Institute.
Speaker C:We are accredited, accredited by the Distance Education Accrediting Commission, which is a cool process to go through.
Speaker C:It's a tough process to go through.
Speaker C:It's something we choose to do and it's where we bring other people in the education space in to look at what we do and make sure we're, we're providing a good educational product to, to our students.
Speaker C:So pretty cool.
Speaker C:To, to be involved with that.
Speaker C:I came over to SDI about four years ago.
Speaker C:Before that, I had worked with another on ground school in Colorado in the gunsmithing space as well.
Speaker C:And Covid really kind of opened my eyes to what we, what we could expand and do.
Speaker C:So it's fun to be on that kind of, that cutting edge of, of education and, and where it's headed.
Speaker B:What do you think is the future of gunsmiths in the U.S. we were talking with Pete Brownell earlier, and he brought up how there's a lack of gunsmiths and we need to get more people in the trade.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:Where do you guys see the future of.
Speaker B:Of gunsmithing and how do we get more gunsmiths out on the ground?
Speaker C:Yeah, you know, it starts with training, number one, you know.
Speaker C:You know, the, the path to gunsmithing in the past was, you know, learn a little bit of mechanics, maybe, maybe cars, maybe woodworking, maybe farm machinery, whatever, and then.
Speaker C:And then taken.
Speaker C:Focus that on the gun as a machine.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That's not the case anymore.
Speaker C:We don't see shop classes in high schools.
Speaker C:We don't see home EC classes in high schools.
Speaker C:So you don't.
Speaker C:We don't see a lot of people coming from that style of learning and having those base skill backgrounds.
Speaker C:And so what we now see is students that played a video game and they want to build the gun from the video game.
Speaker C:And so how do we take those students and teach them those base skills and give them the opportunity to be successful in an industry and build it up?
Speaker C:Fact of the matter is we've got a lot of gunsmiths that have a lot of knowledge that, that are passing away.
Speaker C:You know, I lost one of my mentors at the Colorado School of Trades.
Speaker C:Gary Schlommer passed away a couple of years ago.
Speaker C:Sonoran Desert Institute, their master gunsmith carpenter, passed away last year.
Speaker C:You know, we're seeing that change in the industry where that knowledge base, those guys that were kind of just stalwarts in the industry are passing away.
Speaker C:Well, how do we get the new.
Speaker C:The new group engaged?
Speaker C:And really the cool part about it is it doesn't matter who you are.
Speaker C:If you, if you like to work with your hands, it's something you can do.
Speaker C:You know, I got into it because I, I liked working with my hands.
Speaker C:I didn't love working on cars.
Speaker C:I'm not an engine guy.
Speaker C:Like, that's not my thing, you know, but I like mechanics.
Speaker C:And so getting into it and working with your hands, if that's something you like to do, it's an opportunity for you.
Speaker C:And frankly, we just keep producing firearms and so there's just more and more to be worked on.
Speaker C:So it's a great path you brought.
Speaker B:Up that we keep producing more and more firearms.
Speaker B:And there's a lot of modern technology, a lot of things are becoming more modular.
Speaker B:You know, what's it look like for a gunsmith in this modern age where a lot of things can be either done at home or it's a lot more like easier to replace and do things that previously you would need a gunsmith for?
Speaker C:Yeah, it has gotten easier for the end user and that's pretty cool.
Speaker C:I mean, that's awesome because now you're opening up the industry to more people, getting more people involved, which is a great thing.
Speaker C:There's always a tipping point though, where you go past what the end user can do.
Speaker C:And so that's where those gunsmiths come in.
Speaker C:Frankly, the end user right now too though, just for basic maintenance, they're not great at it.
Speaker C:We're all time challenged people right now.
Speaker C:Lots of things looking to take our time.
Speaker C:And so having the ability to go to your local gunsmith and drop off the gun and say, hey, can you, can you give this the annual cleaning, you know, or the biannual cleaning, whatever it is, you know, however, however much you shoot, whatever it is, there's a, there's a person, a guy or gal standing behind a counter out there that can do that for you.
Speaker C:And so, you know, it's just like any of the other things that we choose to pass off and maintenance.
Speaker C:You know, I, I don't mow my own grass.
Speaker C:I pay somebody to do that because my time's valuable.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I want to spend that time with my kids.
Speaker C:I want to spend that time with, with my family.
Speaker C:I want to spend that time working on firearms.
Speaker C:So, you know, having that ability to pass those tasks off to somebody who's competent and can complete them is an amazing piece.
Speaker C:And so that's where the gunsmiths come in.
Speaker C:You know, it, it may be that the end user can do it.
Speaker C:It, it may be that they don't want to spend their time on it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I remember working behind the counter and people would drop off their guns to get cleaned and I would kind of like giggle in my head.
Speaker B:I'm like, come on, you can't clean your own now.
Speaker B:With how busy I am, I don't think I've cleaned a gun in forever.
Speaker B:And I went to go take one of them Apart the other day.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh God, this thing is filthy.
Speaker B:When was the last time I cleaned this?
Speaker C:This is a travesty, you know, this is a travesty.
Speaker B:It used to be like you would come.
Speaker B:It was, you know, when I was younger, when I first got into guns, it was come home from the range immediately, clean everything, put it.
Speaker B:Now it's like, come home from the range, throw everything in a pile and go do something else.
Speaker B:Just because time and life has just gotten so busy and you know, I love how you guys are getting more people into.
Speaker B:This space is a great on ramp for people who may have left, had recently left the military.
Speaker B:I know you guys are really big on that or you know, people who are just looking to work with their hands again in the trade.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:We have a lot of, we have a lot of students that come from the military or maybe even still in the military using, you know, some form of tuition assistance through the military, whatever.
Speaker C:It's interesting because it fits with what they've done in the past.
Speaker C:You know, a lot of the military jobs are hands on jobs, whether it's an infantryman out walking a patrol or whether it's a mechanic working in the motor pool or whatever it might be.
Speaker C:You know, it's hard work, skill based jobs.
Speaker C:And so it's something that translate easily for them.
Speaker C:The other thing that we see a lot of is we see a lot of students that have the desire to go on and get a bachelor's degree or increase their skills in some other way.
Speaker C:And so they come to us first and get to do some of their base skills and something they really enjoy.
Speaker C:And then take those and take them to the other school and the other school decide, hey, this is what we're going to give you for transfer credit, whether that's for electives or whatever.
Speaker C:And so it's a great way to give people opportunities and just it's fun to see the diversity of students that we're starting to see now.
Speaker C:And Even the last 15 years, I've seen it all.
Speaker C:I've seen the student that literally has never picked up a screwdriver all the way up to the student that has come out of the oil fields as a, as a high end welder.
Speaker C:That's decided, okay, I'm not working in North Dakota in the oil fields in the cold anymore.
Speaker C:I've saved up my money.
Speaker C:I'm going to do this and I'm going to go open a shop and, and this is how I'm going to, this is Going to be my second career, so.
Speaker C:And everything in between, so.
Speaker C:Pretty cool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean we've, we've talked about it with a couple people and you know that the big name gunsmiths are not as prevalent as they used to be.
Speaker B:I know we've got, you know, Bill Wilson and Wilson Combat and then Ed Brown and the Brown family with theirs.
Speaker B:And now you've got Ernest Langdon doing his stuff with the Berettas.
Speaker B:We don't see that as often as we used to.
Speaker B:And it's kind of sad because it was a big, big thing.
Speaker B:You know, the fit specials and things like that from the past where these big names were.
Speaker B:And we're kind of just losing that part of our society.
Speaker C:Yeah, we are.
Speaker C:You know, I mean Po Ackley out of Trinidad, Colorado.
Speaker C:I mean the stuff that he did, Jerry Fisher up in Montana, you know, some of these, some of these names that if you look hard enough, you'll find them and you'll, and you'll find the legacy that they left and the things that they did, but we're losing them and, and we haven't seen a group step into that.
Speaker C:So it'll be an interesting place for, for the industry to go.
Speaker C:You know, what's that next group of people that are, that are doing those things just like, you know, the Langdons are.
Speaker C:That's, that's awesome what they're doing.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, with.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:Amy and Ernest, I love.
Speaker B:They live down the street, so they're good friends.
Speaker B:But it is, it's, it's crazy to see that we've lost.
Speaker B:I mean you had such big names in the, in the 30s to the 60s.
Speaker B:Like I mentioned the fifth special you had Elmer Keefe with the.
Speaker B:On the ammo side and building up the, the 44 mag.
Speaker B:We just don't see it, it become really.
Speaker B:I wouldn't say, like I want to figure out how I want to say it's really become a kind of faceless, nameless person in a brand building up like we talked about.
Speaker B:We've talked to, you know, people and I've talked around with industry folks.
Speaker B:You know the new Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 2.0.
Speaker B:Well, that guy, the guy who designed the shield design that.
Speaker B:Well, I don't know his name.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Like, that's not something that we see anymore.
Speaker B:We don't see that name.
Speaker B:I mean the last big name to put their, their kind of design out there would have to be Gaston.
Speaker B:Really, because we, it was, it was Browning and then now we have just.
Speaker B:Gaston was the last one.
Speaker B:And we don't see that as often as we used to.
Speaker C:Yeah, you also don't see the, the willingness to go out and kind of take a, take a risk.
Speaker C:And that sounds weird to say as we talk about firearms.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But there's a way to take a safe risk.
Speaker C:And that's what Elmer, Keith, those kind of folks did was it was a calculated thought process because they had gained some knowledge and were applying that knowledge to then.
Speaker C:Okay, I want to apply it this way.
Speaker C:But you're right, you don't hear those names, you don't learn about those designers anymore.
Speaker C:What we're seeing is a lot of the things coming off the factory floors.
Speaker C:And that's kind of what's driving the industry right now.
Speaker C:And I think we'll see kind of a renaissance of that concept of, hey, this is what we've got from the factories.
Speaker C:But this is the problem that I'm seeing or the niche that I want to be in.
Speaker C:And how do I, how do I jump into that?
Speaker C:So it'd be interesting to see what the next decade or so holds.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker B:I mean, I'd love to see.
Speaker B:I've talked with people in the industry and the problem that I see is it seems like gun designs are now done by think tanks.
Speaker B:You got, I mean, not to call them out by name, but there's a big company that no longer is in business that made a gun that was really cool but then epically failed because it was done by think tanks and not by a singular person.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, it's interesting to see that process change, although we've seen it everywhere else too, but then we're seeing a renaissance of it as well.
Speaker C:I mean, you could say the same thing of kind of the automobile industry.
Speaker C:Like who, I don't know who designed the last Ford, Chevy or Dodge, who knows, you know, but you're, you're also seeing some of those, like the chip fuses that are, that are still having an impact because they're taking it and making it their own, that kind of thing.
Speaker C:And, and so, you know, this industry is ripe for that as well because we are losing some of those, some of those legends that did it.
Speaker A:I think that it is one of the great kinds of, kind of facts of life where so many things have become so commercialized in our day to day world that people are craving that the bespoke, the, that personal connection.
Speaker A:And I think that's why you're able to see, you know, those brands that were led by individuals that have made A lasting impact be those generational pieces that are passed down that, you know, your family will never get rid of.
Speaker A:But it also is the thing that's driving innovation as well.
Speaker A:And so the, the, the English.
Speaker A:The thing that's really interesting is everything has got to be counterbalanced, right.
Speaker A:Where you know, you have the major manufacturing with the individuals.
Speaker A:But I think it all comes down to having those relationships with the local gunsmiths too.
Speaker A:Because a lot of first time gun owners might not even be aware that you can customize something, that you can make something your own.
Speaker A:And I think for so long we've been in an economic place nationally where people have been so focused on the race to the bottom and what fits in people's everyday budget that we forgot to educate the consumers that we can adapt and change and make things your own because your firearm is that extension of you and, and it doesn't have to be a one size fits all.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker C:You know, before I got into gunsmithing, I worked in the watch and jewelry industry for a couple of years and high end super luxury manual mechanical timepieces.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that was the thing and the joke 20 years ago, or not a joke or the line, whatever you want to call it, was, you know, what's the last piece of jewelry a man can put on?
Speaker C:He's wearing a wedding ring.
Speaker C:A watch is a statement piece.
Speaker C:It's something that says something about you.
Speaker C:And that was right after we had come out of, you know, the kind of the, the battery powered inexpensive watch craze.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so same thing with firearms.
Speaker C:You know, you asked me what my everyday carry was.
Speaker C:Both of those guns are, are fairly plain guns.
Speaker C:However, that shield is engraved with and has sentimental value to it because of what's on it.
Speaker C:So it's, it's that step towards how do we make these our own, that, that is available.
Speaker C:The flip side of that though, with the commercial piece of it is we have made firearms so much more accessible.
Speaker C:Like I can remember as a kid mowing grass, throwing hay, whatever, trying to save up money to get to my first firearm, you know, and they weren't, they weren't as accessible.
Speaker C:There weren't as many available.
Speaker C:That's not the case now.
Speaker C:I mean there's all kinds of stuff accessible for anybody at any, at any level.
Speaker C:And so it's, it's good on both sides.
Speaker C:You know, it gives a chance to expand, but it also gives a chance for access for anyone that wants to get into it.
Speaker B:This is brought to you by Patriot Mobile use code GOA for one month free for freedom loving mobile service.
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Speaker B:We are at the halfway point which leads us into our next segment which is from the Soapbox where we talk a little bit on the spicier side of things.
Speaker B:What is your from the Soapbox?
Speaker C:But probably my biggest, there's a couple that, that always jump out at me.
Speaker C:The first one being, you know, just the training side of firearms.
Speaker C:Whether it's gunsmithing, whether it's basic education.
Speaker C:You know, being with an online school, I have to watch all 50 states because they all have an impact on what we can do and can't do with our students.
Speaker C:And there's some states that have done put laws in place that, that have closed off certain programs.
Speaker C:So you know, my, I can't have students in those states going through those programs.
Speaker C:Which is sad because you're losing out on a, on a resource, on a commodity, on a, on an individual with skills that can, can help your state in some way.
Speaker C:But besides the, the, the rough side of it, the, it's also fun to see some of the states that are doing some interesting stuff with training like Arkansas, you know, Arkansas with their state law on, on doing firearms education with, in the, in the public schools.
Speaker C:That's awesome.
Speaker C:You know, that's one of those things where you expose everybody to it.
Speaker C:Are they going to go out and all own guns?
Speaker C:No, that's okay.
Speaker C:That's their, that's their choice.
Speaker C:It's a right, it's a choice.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:We have the right to make that choice.
Speaker C:You know, are they all going to do it?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Do they have that skill in their back pocket that if they ever encounter one, they're safe with it?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Just like a circular saw, just like a chainsaw, just like a screw gun.
Speaker C:I mean you name all of these other things that maybe they aren't going to go out and do, but they're they're at least have a little bit of understanding and they're safe with it.
Speaker C:You know, so anytime we have the chance to put those skills back in front of people, whether it's in the firearms industry or whether it's other base common sense skills.
Speaker C:I took home EC as a high school student.
Speaker C:Again, I'm dating Myself here, I can sew, I can cook.
Speaker C:But now, looking back on it, being an educator that teaches adults, the other thing that I learned was I learned kitchen safety.
Speaker C:You know, I learned.
Speaker C:I learned shop safety.
Speaker C:I learned some of these other things about what I should and shouldn't do.
Speaker C:You know, don't mix these household chemicals together because you'll kill yourself.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I mean, these are things that we're missing out on because we're not doing some of that base education.
Speaker C:And so to see states do things where they put that base education back in play is awesome.
Speaker C:For the kids that are coming up through the school systems today, it's going to give them a much better foundation to build on and then let them choose what they want to go out and do.
Speaker C:You know, maybe a student takes a home EC class and never wants to be involved in a kitchen or a culinary experience or whatever ever again.
Speaker C:That's cool.
Speaker C:You, my friend, will find a job that you can buy all your food out.
Speaker C:Rock on.
Speaker C:You know, more power to, you know what you like, know what you don't.
Speaker C:But having that base exposure, I feel like we do a really big disservice to people in this country by saying, oh, you don't need to know anything about that.
Speaker C:That's not what you like.
Speaker C:That's not what you care about.
Speaker C:That's not what you're interested in.
Speaker C:So we're just not even going to expose you to it, where that exposure gives you a foundation to build on other things later on in life.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I do want to kind of go back to something that you said earlier, which is, you know, you guys are in 50 states, right?
Speaker A:You, you have the whole, the, the whole country that you're dealing with when it comes to the access issues, when it.
Speaker A:For education, is that more of a federal thing or is that more of an individual state thing?
Speaker A:And how does that translate when it comes to what we're seeing as consumers and the access to gunsmiths that a lot of people are having trouble finding?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, let me clear one thing up.
Speaker C:We're not in all 50.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:There are some that we.
Speaker C:While I still watch them to see if things change, so I can go into them.
Speaker C:We're not in all 50 currently.
Speaker C:I think it's 46 that we can operate in.
Speaker C:Funny enough, it's not always the firearms laws that are a problem.
Speaker C:So your question's a great question along that lines and without getting too deep into, into the education side of things, because it is a, a very deep rabbit hole.
Speaker C:It there's actually a, a three legged stool that, that is what props up higher education in America.
Speaker C:And that three legged stool is based on three pieces.
Speaker C:It's your state agencies, it's your accreditor if you're an accredited institution, and then it's the federal government.
Speaker C:And so you've got different regulations and laws and rules and whatnot coming in from these three different areas.
Speaker C:And they all have different impacts based on what you choose to do as your model for education.
Speaker C:You know, some schools say, hey, we're not going to offer title for Pell grants and student loans.
Speaker C:And so therefore they don't have to deal with some of the regulation.
Speaker C:So it, it can be very, very complex, it can be very, very simple.
Speaker C:But it all has an impact on what we can do and what we can't do.
Speaker C:It's interesting.
Speaker C:Even some of the practices around where I can hire individuals as my faculty members.
Speaker C:There are certain states that say that I can't hire in that state unless I have a presence there.
Speaker C:You know, a presence being a physical location.
Speaker C:And so, you know, I, it may be a state that has a lot of great gunsmiths that I would love to have as part time faculty members because I want that knowledge to come in and flow back out to my students, but I just can't hire you, you know, and so it is very interesting to see what the impact is there.
Speaker C:But it's those two things.
Speaker C:It's either firearms law in some cases or it could be education law that has an impact on us.
Speaker A:So what are the states that you're not in?
Speaker A:Because I know that's going to be in the comments section.
Speaker C:Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker C:I should know off the top of my head.
Speaker C:And it changes so much.
Speaker C:And it's funny, there's some that you would think we wouldn't be in that we are, and there's some that you would think we would be in that we aren't.
Speaker C:I believe New Jersey is one of them.
Speaker C:New York, some of the programs are limited in like Hawaii, California, although some of the programs are available in those states.
Speaker C:So it's, there's no one right answer to that.
Speaker C:So it's going to be hard for me to give that.
Speaker C:But what I can tell you is that if you look at our website, it'll tell you which ones are available to students and which ones aren't.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know a lot of people kind of see this opportunity for trade and they're looking around and maybe they've already got a degree.
Speaker A:But turns out what they were sold might not exactly have panned out for them and they're looking for that career change and something that is needed and potentially more stable.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And the cool thing about gunsmithing is, is that we are, we're a master of nothing.
Speaker C:I am a master of absolutely nothing.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:However, I have a lot of skills, whether it's woodworking, whether it's welding, whether it's machining, whether it's basic metal work and finishing.
Speaker C:These all apply to lots of different industries.
Speaker C:And so it is a great catch all to kind of to see what you're truly interested in.
Speaker C:You know, I was asked a couple of years ago, when I get done doing this, what would I go out and do?
Speaker C:Well, I mean, all the love to the AR crowd, but I'm going to go whittle on wood stocks because that, that's just fun, right?
Speaker C:To me, that's what I truly enjoy.
Speaker C:And to your comment earlier about the kind of bespoke step in the industry, that's one of those spots where you take a nice piece of walnut and you put it on a set of grips for a handgun or as a stock for a gun or a shotgun and wow.
Speaker C:I mean, it's amazing what you can do with that.
Speaker C:And so someday I hope to go back to that.
Speaker C:Um, but that, that group of skills is something that leads into other things.
Speaker C:You know, I've got graduates that went and worked at water companies because they knew how to run a manual lathe.
Speaker C:I've got graduates that went and worked at door companies because they knew how to, to run a CNC machine and finish wood.
Speaker C:So it just leads into so many things.
Speaker C:So pretty cool to see from that standpoint.
Speaker C:But you're right.
Speaker C:You've got people that are, they're looking at the pieces of paper hanging on their walls and they're going, well, this hasn't gotten me where I wanted to go.
Speaker C:What else can I look at?
Speaker C:Look at the trades and whether it's gunsmithing or anything else, look at the trades.
Speaker C:There's lots of opportunity out there.
Speaker C:I mean, how many have you had to call a plumber recently?
Speaker C:And has it been easy to find one?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Same way with a gunsmith.
Speaker C:It's hard to find a gunsmith right now, you know, because we just as a country haven't focused on those jobs.
Speaker C:And there's, there's lots of opportunity out there.
Speaker B:I mean, well said.
Speaker B:Well, you're not wrong.
Speaker B:I mean, trying to find a plumber or trying to find anything And I think, you know, we.
Speaker B:Getting into the gunsmith trade is.
Speaker B:It's not the easiest at first, but it is also something that if you're passionate about it and you like working with your hands and doing that stuff, I mean, go out and go do it really.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:I mean, and the thing you've got to remember with any education, you know, I've got lots of degrees.
Speaker C:I've collected degrees, like a thermometer.
Speaker C:I think I've heard that joke in the past.
Speaker C:And so, you know, I got lots of them and all of them gave me skills and learning that was beneficial to me and that I've used in different situations.
Speaker C:Um, but the, but the skills and learning that I got in school only took me so far.
Speaker C:At some point, you have to go out and apply those and continue to learn.
Speaker C:You know, we were talking about some, some older shotguns earlier.
Speaker C:Older, Older rifles earlier.
Speaker C:And I wasn't taught those in school.
Speaker C:I know exactly what you're talking about because I've.
Speaker C:I've had to do some research along the way, but I've learned about them as I've gone out into the industry, worked on things, handled things, so on and so forth.
Speaker C:So the idea with any educational environment is to give you a baseline to start with and then get you out in the world doing it.
Speaker C:Whether that's plumbing, whether that's H Vac, whether that's electrical, whether that's gunsmithing.
Speaker C:You know, we're here to get you a baseline and give you a safe place to make some mistakes and learn from those mistakes before they're catastrophic and get your, your business shut down.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And then allow you to go out and take it and make it into whatever it is you want it to be.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And that's the beauty of education.
Speaker C:That's what education should be.
Speaker C:You know, it should be a step towards continuous learning over and over and over again.
Speaker C:It's not, it's not something that ends when the.
Speaker C:When you walk across the stage.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I want to see more gunsmiths out there who.
Speaker B:Because we've seen a lot, you know, lately a lot of guns have been production guns that have come out and, you know, they may be engraved.
Speaker B:Well, they're not engraved.
Speaker B:They're lasered.
Speaker B: 're, we're hand checkering on: Speaker B:That used to be a really big thing.
Speaker B:Now it's, it's a laser that comes through.
Speaker B:I want to see more gunsmiths who can do that, trade and do things like that?
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:It's a set of skills and art that we're losing, you know, and the other thing that you're always beholden to as an educator is what's the market asking for?
Speaker C:You know, hand checkering on wood?
Speaker C:Nobody does that anymore.
Speaker C:I mean, very few.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so am I doing a disservice to my students to spend a ton of time on it?
Speaker C:I might be at this point.
Speaker C:You know, we had that conversation 10 years ago and talked about, is it time to go away from the extensiveness of this project and do something a little less intensive that still gives a baseline set of skills that if they want to go out and build on it, they can, you know.
Speaker C:And so we've got to continually evaluate what the market's looking for, what our students need to be successful as graduates out in the industry.
Speaker C:And in the process, sometimes you're going to lose some of those things.
Speaker C:The goal is, can you keep everybody interested and expose them enough to let them go out and figure out that, oh, I do like this.
Speaker C:Let me go do this, you know?
Speaker A:And that's got to be a fine line between preserving some of these lost arts and also moving forward with the innovation, because that's a wide base, if you think of the job requirement of a gunsmith.
Speaker A:I mean, you even said that you're not a master of one just because of the variety within our own industry.
Speaker A:And although John is leading the charge on petitions to make everything as standardized as possible, I don't know that his army of one is going to be quite successful.
Speaker A:Day one.
Speaker B:I am not an army of one.
Speaker B:There's a lot of us who are like, come on.
Speaker A:But you, I definitely hear you probably the loudest.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Basically, any time there's a microphone in front of your face, which is at least once a week.
Speaker B:Yes, I definitely am loudest on that.
Speaker B:Well, and that's the thing, like you taught.
Speaker B:You brought up hand checkering on wood.
Speaker B:But I think what has happened now is we went from hand checkering on wood to now stippling on polymer.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And the changes and things like that have changed over the years.
Speaker B:Now you can even do that with a laser engraver.
Speaker B:So it's like, what is the next big thing that you're going to have to teach your students?
Speaker B:Because it's forever changing on everything.
Speaker C:And that's exactly it, you know, and so with any of those concepts, you step back and you say, okay, what's the baseline that I can give them, you know, stippling.
Speaker C:We, in one of our programs, we walk through stippling.
Speaker C:We have the students do a stippling project that's in our handgun specialist program.
Speaker C:If you understand stippling, you understand how to lay it out.
Speaker C:The step to checkering is not that hard.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so I've given them a baseline understanding of something and then I'm going to force them to make that next step.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so figuring out where those lines are drawn is very hard.
Speaker C:It's a balancing act all the time.
Speaker C:And so the other limitation we have is that we are working in a medium that's not the easiest to do hands on projects.
Speaker C:And so we've also got to be innovative and creative as an educator to say, okay, we're doing stippling.
Speaker C:Great.
Speaker C:How is a student going to mess this up?
Speaker C:And how do we do it safely?
Speaker C:And how do we coach a student through the mistakes that they've made?
Speaker C:And how do we teach a gunsmith to be a faculty member and apply good communication skills to respond to the student and good coaching skills to mentor that student through being successful?
Speaker C:And, and finally how to apply a grade on it, you know, I mean, for gunsmiths, the grade is like, what, what's a grade?
Speaker C:You know, Right.
Speaker C:And so it's, it's interesting because that faculty member then becomes the customer.
Speaker C:You know, hey, would you be willing for this to go out your door?
Speaker C:And if this was your work, what would you do differently?
Speaker C:Because you're beholden to your customer.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So the student faculty relationship becomes a student customer type of relationship as they get that feedback and hopefully grow.
Speaker C:So it's interesting though, because it's a fine line that we have to walk with.
Speaker C:What's that newest skill?
Speaker C:But what can we relate it back to?
Speaker A:That's awesome.
Speaker A:Well, I'm getting the signal that we need to wrap up.
Speaker A:So where can everyone find you?
Speaker A:Social media, website, all that good stuff.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So check out our website at SDI Edu.
Speaker C:Social media, Instagram, Facebook, that type of thing.
Speaker C:YouTube, you know, check those out.
Speaker C:And if you're interested in either firearms or drones, look and see what we've got.
Speaker C:And again, online is not for everyone.
Speaker C:I get that.
Speaker C:But if it's for you and it provides you an opportunity, that's what we're looking to try to do, is to give a student an opportunity.
Speaker B:Before I forget, we have a gift for our guest brought to you by Palmetto State Armory and AAC Ammo.
Speaker B:So you'll be receiving that as a thank you for being on the show with us.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker A:Don't forget to like, share and subscribe.
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Speaker A:It helps us tremendously spread the word about everything that we are doing when it comes to preserving, protecting and restoring the second Amendment.
Speaker A:Don't forget to reserve your ticket for goals and the Gun Owners Advocacy and Leadership Summit happening in Knoxville, Tennessee.
Speaker A:Tickets are free for GOA member your spouses and your children.
Speaker A:It's going to be a great time and we'll see you this August.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that is August 9th and 10th in Knoxville.
Speaker B:And make sure to go to gun owners.orggoals to register today.
Speaker B:And thank you guys for watching.
Speaker B:We'll see you on the next one.
