The case of Steffen Baldwin is often defined by the animals he failed—but the animals were not the end goal. They were a means to power, manipulation, and personal gain.

In this episode, special guest Maya Badham joins us to examine how Baldwin used animals as tools of coercive control—not only over intimate partners, but also over individuals drawn into his schemes. Together, we explore the patterns behind his behavior, how he was able to evade accountability for so long, and why so many people were vulnerable to his manipulation.

This conversation aims to provide a deeper understanding of the dynamics at play—holding Baldwin accountable while recognizing the complexity of victimization, without blame or stigma.

If you found this episode valuable, please consider liking, rating, and sharing. Your support helps us expand our reach, educate others, and advocate for both animals and the people who care for them.

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G, and her music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

This is Season One State versus

Stefan Baldwin, episode nine,

5

the Monster Behind The Mask.

6

And I am happy to welcome a special

guest, Maya Badham of the Center

7

for Animal Inclusive Safeguarding.

8

Maya is a very special guest because

she has a special interest in

9

both the assistance of humans and

animals that are victims of domestic

10

violence and coercive control.

11

So she's going to give us an insight

into Stephan Baldwin's case, but also

12

this is going to help in general in the

identification assessment and potentially

13

being able to help, uh, victims

and survivors of domestic violence.

14

Maya Badham: I'm Maya Badham.

15

I'm the founder and CEO of the Center

for Animal Inclusive Safeguarding.

16

Uh, but my background spans over a

decade in, um, kind of violence against

17

women and girls direct survivor support.

18

Um, I have two degrees.

19

My first degree is looking at, kind

of gender depression throughout time.

20

Um, and my master's is

in human rights law.

21

Um, and then my first job out

at uni was at coroner's office.

22

So I was doing inquest into suspicious

and then natural deaths, and that's

23

where I could then kind of shifted over

to kind of that frontline prevention,

24

intervention support with, uh, survivors

of, of domestic and sexual abuse.

25

Um, and then I got into, into kind of

animal welfare, um, canine behavior in

26

around 2019, uh, with my own dog Podrick.

27

And since then I kind of

mashed the two worlds together.

28

So now what I do mainly is, uh,

provide training and education to

29

across sectors and in between sectors,

trying to get them to understand

30

that interlink between interpersonal

violence and um, animal cruelty.

31

Um, I also do consultancy and research,

and I'm about to start my PhD in October.

32

Um, uh, we'll be looking at the, um,

exploitation of the human canine bond

33

as a tactic of cohersive control and the

impact of that on the human and the dog.

34

So it'll be one of the first times

dogs have been looked at as kind

35

of victims in their own right.

36

Um, and I want to look at the kind of

emotional and behavioral impact of living

37

in an, a domestic abuse environment on

the dog because we focus previously quite

38

a lot on physical impacts, um, and not so

much on that emotional behavioral impact.

39

Um, and I currently am doing some

expert witness work with police,

40

a police force in the UK on a

case where, um, coercive control

41

was used, um, and the animals

featured quite heavily.

42

Um, so I'm starting to move more into kind

of that expert witness, um, work as well.

43

Dr. G:

44

Can you explain to the audience

what coercive of control is?

45

Maya Badham: Yeah.

46

So coercive control is an act

or pattern of acts of violence

47

threats, uh, humiliation,

intimidation that causes fear.

48

Um, so, uh, a lot of the time

that that pattern is really

49

explicit, uh, and important.

50

Um, and the reason why it's important

to talk about coercive control,

51

controlling behavior within that wider

domestic abuse context is because

52

there is a myth still that domestic

abuse is mainly physical violence.

53

Um, whereas the majority of the time, um,

the coercive control is that every day,

54

minute by minute abuse that

that person lives with.

55

Um, so whilst violence is a part

of that, often a part of that,

56

there are some cases where there

is no history of physical violence.

57

Um, but there's been very

tight coercive control.

58

So what that means is, um, you know,

monitoring someone, so stalking

59

behaviors, um, not allowing them to

like live freely and independently.

60

So they'll, they'll try to isolate

them, create dependency on them.

61

Often there's economic abuse involved

in their, um, manipulation, gaslighting,

62

that kind of warping of reality, um,

for the, for the victim survivor.

63

Um, and it's.

64

You know, been described as kind of

a world of everyday terror, really,

65

that there's this, uh, the perpetrator

will create a world a, a set of rules.

66

Um, the victim survivor spends all

their energy and time and focus trying

67

really hard to, to, to meet those

rules and not break those rules.

68

But then what will happen is the

perpetrator will move those roles,

69

shift those roles, change those rules,

um, without the knowledge of the

70

victim survivors, it's very emotionally

exhausting living, um, in that kind

71

of world where they're just trying

to appease the perpetrator as much

72

as possible as a survival mechanism.

73

Um, which is, uh, why that kind of victim

blaming attitude can sometimes creep in.

74

You know, the, if it was that

bad, why didn't you leave?

75

If it was that bad, why did you do this?

76

Uh, rather than focusing on the, the

person that's creating that environment,

77

which is the perpetrator, um, so coersive

control is, um, lessen known really, um,

78

from that kind of wider domestic abuse

79

Context, but it's really central

to understanding why victim

80

survivors behave the way they do.

81

Um, how the perpetrator uses specific

tactics to maintain that power and

82

control, which is at the center of

ultimately what they, they want.

83

Um, and when you talk about, um,

animals, um, so much of what they

84

want from animals is rooted in

the same thing, like unconditional

85

compliance, unconditional obedience

in all situations, in all contexts.

86

There's no room for bad behavior,

no room for anything outside that

87

box that they've kind of set.

88

Um, and unfortunately that can

end, you know, can have very severe

89

consequences for humans and animals.

90

Dr. G:

91

And then they, they will use

the animals as a method of

92

control for the humans, right.

93

Maya Badham: Absolutely.

94

And that can look like

different things too.

95

So again, quite often people will

default down to, um, physical violence,

96

so hitting the animal, um, killing the

animal, um, which is absolutely can be

97

a part of that, that wider, um, tactics.

98

But actually it can be as simple

as threat, a threat to harm.

99

Um, and that's a really powerful

tactic because for many of us who

100

have animals or, or share our lives

with animals, you just have to think.

101

If someone threatened to harm my animal,

I would do, I would comply with whatever

102

that person wants me to do because

I don't want my animal to be harmed.

103

So we, we sometimes forget that

there's all these other non, what

104

we call like a non-contact offense,

like a non-contact, uh, piece of

105

violence, but it's emotional violence.

106

Uh, psychological violence.

107

It can be things like economic abuse.

108

So not allowing them to buy food, not

allowing them to do parasite prevention,

109

not allowed to take them to the vet,

um, without there being consequences.

110

Um, so the use of animals is much

more wider, you know, even down

111

to kind of stalking behaviors.

112

So the use of kind of GPS trackers

on the collar and, um, lying to

113

kind of microchip companies to find

out an address when someone moves.

114

Like the, the use of animals is, is the,

the depth of the entanglement of the

115

tactics is, is a lot deeper than what I

think a lot of people first understand

116

when they think about the use of animals.

117

Dr. G:

118

Our second episode is the rabbit

hole because there's just so

119

much to it and everything that.

120

That I keep finding.

121

It's like there's more and more and

more and more, and this has been

122

a huge task to undertake, right?

123

Like making this, this season just

because it's kind of like never ending.

124

But I think the big question is

kinda who is this person and how

125

does he get away with doing this

for such a long period of time?

126

Um, now when we were discussing,

before we were talking about his

127

childhood, so let's start there.

128

Let's start kinda like with

the beginning of a monster.

129

Like how, how, how do you feel that

his childhood affected who he became?

130

And is that a reason or an excuse?

131

Maya Badham: So I think I said to you as

well beforehand, we only have his word

132

for kind of what his childhood was like.

133

And I, I honestly don't know how we would

ever in disentangle, like truth from

134

lies from what he says, because every

other word he says is, is, is a lie.

135

I think, um, um, however, if we take

what he said about his childhood as even

136

semi true, um, I think, you know, it's

not unusual for perpetrators of violence

137

and abuse to have troubled childhoods.

138

However, in my sector, we, we

are very clear that, um, domestic

139

abuse coercive control is an active

choice to perpetrators choose to

140

abuse someone, and there's never

an excuse for their behavior.

141

So, whilst I'm sure if what he says is

correct, he was, there is trauma there

142

from his childhood, which I think, um,

does impact people in different ways,

143

um, it's not, it's too simplistic and

reductionist to say, oh, he had this,

144

uh, childhood experience, therefore.

145

Um, he's acting like this because it takes

part of the responsibility away from him.

146

Um, and there are many people out there

who have had horrendous childhoods,

147

really, really negative traumatic

childhoods who do not go on to abuse other

148

people, who do not go on to be violent.

149

So, um, there has to be an, and so

yes, maybe there was a violence and

150

abuse or something happening in his

childhood, but plus something else

151

that made him behave how he did.

152

And when we talk about perpetrators,

uh, male perpetrators against female

153

victim survivors, a lot of that and

comes from misogyny, sexism, and

154

living in a patriarchal environment,

which allows them to basically act

155

this way with, with impunity because

of the way in which we police or

156

don't police crimes against women.

157

So, um, I think we can't, uh, take away

his experiences as part of who he is,

158

and it would be a disservice to do that.

159

Um, but I think it's

not the whole picture.

160

Um, and I'd love to see a psych eval.

161

I think your last guest also also was

kind of quite interested in, in, but the

162

thing is they will manipulate everyone.

163

They will manipulate professionals.

164

They will manipulate, uh, public,

they will manipulate obviously,

165

their intimate partners and their

families and their children.

166

So even the most skilled professional

with him, I think would be hard pressed

167

to try and detangle like exactly what's

going in on inside his, his head.

168

Um, but certainly I think, you

know, um, his childhood probably

169

didn't help, um, who he, who he was.

170

But I think, you know, it can

never be, or should never be given

171

as an excuse for his behavior.

172

And I think the accountability and the

responsibility for his, his actions

173

and behavior should remain on him.

174

Dr. G:

175

He is obviously very good at

lying and very good at making

176

people believe his lies.

177

Um, and, and some of that has to come

from being good at reading people, right?

178

Like how, how do, how do people, you

know, it's not just the women that he

179

abused, but also the people that he took

advantage of, I mean, myself included.

180

So, um, how, how does that happen?

181

Maya Badham: So, very similar to how,

um, child abusers a pedophiles groom,

182

their victim survivors, the perpetrators

will groom everyone around them because

183

there's no better protection than people

who won't believe the truth because

184

they've got this kind of, uh, mass.

185

So what you'll often find is perpetrators

who are well-known members of the

186

community, well, respected members

of the community, um, they will

187

often seek, um, positions of power.

188

So, you know, um, he was, he had a history

of, I know there's confusion about exactly

189

what he did in the military, but he

was, you know, in there at some point.

190

Um, and often perpetrators are drawn

to profession, professions where

191

they can have some sort of power and

control or, um, exhibit kind of rigid,

192

rigid kind of rules a lot of the time.

193

So military policing, um, you

know, other kind of official roles.

194

And, you know, you talked about, um,

uh, he became like executive director

195

of the Humane Society, was it?

196

Yeah.

197

The Humane Society.

198

Yeah.

199

So, so like that is perfect for someone

who wants to portray themselves as a

200

trusted professional, um, someone to be

admired and looked up to and revered even.

201

And I think he really, um,

wanted that, that re reveration.

202

I don't, you know, that God-like

complex, um, that just huge ego.

203

Um, that was I think a, a big motivating

part for a lot of what he did, but also

204

it's a, a great exploitation tactic

in getting money, which was obviously

205

a huge part of his, his kind of, um,

uh, crime crimes that he did was.

206

You know, scamming people out of money.

207

And what you find a lot of the time is,

uh, perpetrators and narcissists and

208

psychopath, sociopath, they like money.

209

There is like a, a thing

around having money.

210

And I think that's also where,

going back to his childhood, I, I

211

don't think he had a lot of money.

212

I think there were periods of time

where he didn't have a lot of money.

213

And so that, again, that's not an excuse,

but that may feed into some of that

214

motivating behavior around money is that

fear of being without money sparked his

215

need almost to have an extreme amount

of control, um, over kind of money.

216

And partly, I, I personally

think he, he got some sort of

217

pleasure out of scamming people.

218

I think there was probably something

going on in his brain when he

219

successfully did these things.

220

That gave him a bit of a kick, a

bit like almost like an addiction,

221

which I know he also had, uh,

struggles with, with, um, addiction.

222

And, um, I think that that, like,

that was, I think, could fed into that

223

mentality of more and more, more rising

up the ladder, being seen as this

224

person, uh, whilst being someone else.

225

Again, I think that probably gave him a

little bit of a kick because I dunno if

226

you used that phrase in the States, but it

gave him like something Yeah, it gave him

227

like a sense of like, that that deception

is probably a thrill, like a high thrill.

228

Yeah.

229

Like thrill is like a thrill

there to, to it as well.

230

Um, but, but for sure, um, they will,

they will manipulate everyone around them.

231

Um, mo when you see, uh, so he's kind of

like a really interesting case because

232

this is like one of the o one of the

only cases, one of the bigger cases

233

where he's manipulating so many people,

um, uh, on a smaller scale with like a

234

lot of the work that I do, um, kind of

with, I don't wanna sound blase, but

235

kind of like your average perpetrator,

because I think he is pl, you know,

236

he's a very Dan, like, there's a very

dangerous, very, um, almost like unique

237

in some of the things that he was doing.

238

Um, but if you scale that down, what,

um, what perpetrators will do is they'll

239

obviously groom their partner, um, before

they get into the relationship, which

240

I, he, he did classically by the book

and we call that the entrapment process.

241

So, um, the first is called

conditioning or the grooming stage.

242

So that's where you'll see that kind

of white night savior love bombing.

243

So gifts and, uh, making

them feel really good.

244

Often at this stage they'll mirror,

so what you are interested in,

245

they're also really interested in,

and that's a tactic that he used.

246

When I was listening to some of

the other, that that's a tactic

247

that he used with people generally.

248

Um, but he used that

249

Dr. G:

250

with me when I, when I first met him,

I said, this is what I'm interested in.

251

And immediately that was what

he was interested in, you know?

252

Yeah.

253

And that's how like, you know, we

started our partnership was because,

254

you know, this, this was my idea.

255

And he's like, oh yeah,

256

Maya Badham: that's my idea too.

257

And it's so effective, um,

making that bond immediately.

258

And that's what, um, in the entrapment

process from an intimate partner, um,

259

perspective is often it's very quick.

260

So everything is sped up.

261

So there'll be like early

declarations of love.

262

They move in really quickly.

263

Um, there'll often be lots of kind of, um,

showering like of gifts, um, decor, um,

264

like, uh, flowers or, you know, something

that, whatever they need sometimes,

265

like, oh, you need, um, you know, oh,

you're a little bit low on the rent.

266

Oh, I'll help top that up.

267

Or, you know, they, they come in, um, and

they, they kind of, then what you do is

268

like, where we're bound, like grateful.

269

So there's like that, um, um, it's

really effective because then if

270

someone else came and said, oh, do

you know that person isn't very nice?

271

You are like, well, they're nice to me.

272

Like they're really nice to me.

273

They're a really good person.

274

So you are the one that's not

nice because you are talking

275

about this person negatively.

276

And so that's that isolation

beginning too, because you're then not

277

trusting anyone outside that sphere

of reality that they're building.

278

Um, which then leads into stage two, which

is around normalization and dependency.

279

So this stage, they'll start,

um, drawing the, the person

280

even more into their reality.

281

So they'll create a reality.

282

The expectations around that person

moving only within that reality.

283

Any steps out may mean there

are consequences, whether that's

284

physical abuse or something else.

285

But, um, that, that they're teaching

that person the line to walk basically.

286

Um.

287

So you'll see like control

increase in this stage.

288

You'll see threats start to, to

come in the stage and you may

289

even have like an early violent

episode in this stage as well.

290

Um, and then the third stage

is, is like full entrapment.

291

So by this stage, often the person is

economically tied to the perpetrator.

292

Um, there's definitely more like

rigid rules, the consequences for

293

breaking those rules, um, they're

emotionally dependent on this person.

294

Um, I think, you know, one of his

tactics as well, um, other guests has

295

talked about is, you know, um, the use

of drugs and alcohol, which for some

296

perpetrators again, is a very effective

tactic because if you are, say the

297

supplier and you've, you've isolated

that person so they can't drive.

298

'cause I know, you know, one of the

victim survivors, I dunno, uh, about

299

names, but, you know, uh, one of the

victim survivors talked about, you

300

know, not having access to a car,

um, not living near a, but you know.

301

Geographically isolated.

302

Um, then if you get someone addicted

or, um, you know, um, dependent

303

on drugs or alcohol, and they're

the only person able to supply you

304

with that, there's that additional

layer of dependency on that person.

305

And really there's a lot of sometimes

blame that goes along with that.

306

So, um, you know, there's a

lot of stigma around those who

307

struggle with drug and alcohol use.

308

Um, but ultimately sometimes for victim

survivors, that's like a lifeline, that

309

that is the only thing they feel like

keeping them alive, really, because

310

their environment that that person has

created is so bad that that is their only

311

means of escape is in the substances.

312

Um, and therefore the blame for that

should lay squarely at the feet of

313

the perpetrator that has created that

environment, um, for that person.

314

And quite often that that's exacerbated

by humiliation and degradation.

315

So calling people names, you know, um,

taking away their self-esteem, making

316

them feel like they would be nothing

without them, um, guilting them.

317

So look what I've given you, um, like

even around like, you know, debt debting.

318

So, you know, um, oh, I spent this

much on, originally what was a gift now

319

is kind of like you owe me for that.

320

Um, in some way, shape or form, whether

that's an unpaid labor or whether that's

321

maybe sexual favors, uh, you know, sexual

coercion essentially that's what that is.

322

Um, but they owe them that.

323

And so that there's this kind

of, um, you know, that's that

324

emotional dependency as well.

325

So I think the most important thing

with domestic abuse and coercive control

326

is absolutely anyone can be a, become

a victim, survivor of perpetrator.

327

So lots of us like to think, you know,

walk around thinking that'll never be us.

328

Um, you know, I'm not stupid

enough to fall for them.

329

We are all one arms throw

away from a perpetrator.

330

We all know a perpetrator, we've

all interacted with a perpetrator.

331

We've all been taken in by a perpetrator.

332

Um, it's luck of the draw, whether that

person, um, you know, continues on that

333

kind of path with the, with, with you.

334

But we all have vulnerabilities

that can be exploited.

335

If you have, if you love your job, if you

have a child, if you have an animal, um,

336

if you have any form of like normal level

empathy at all, they will exploit it if

337

they choose you to be a their victim.

338

So that's why that victim blaming it

really needs to kind of stop in terms of

339

there's an us and there's the victims.

340

It can literally be

anyone, um, anyone of us.

341

And in his case, it was a

hell of a lot of people.

342

So,

343

Dr. G:

344

yeah.

345

Yeah.

346

He was able to, yeah.

347

Manipulate people and, and he did

it, you know, he picked something

348

easy, which is the animals, because,

you know, every, most people love

349

animals, and the people that love

animals really care deeply about them.

350

So he was able to take advantage

of the emotions that people have.

351

Yeah.

352

Uh, and utilize that.

353

Maya Badham: Yeah.

354

And a lot of people that are like,

you know, like people like us who are

355

like above, there's animal lovers.

356

And then there's like some of us, which

are, which are like, uh, you know, very,

357

very deeply into kind of animal welfare.

358

A lot of us have previous

experience, negative experiences

359

with people and or our own trauma.

360

Therefore, we gravitate towards animals,

especially animals in need because of the

361

fact that animals give unconditional love.

362

They're like truly

innocent in lots of ways.

363

And so, um.

364

Again, the animal welfare world is,

is kind of full of people that are,

365

that have vulnerabilities, that have

previous histories of trauma that they

366

will then exploit and they're quite

adept at targeting, uh, knowing like

367

they will deliberately pick someone.

368

So lots of victim survivors have

internalized shame and guilt.

369

They, they really feel like they

deserved, they've done something to

370

des and they, they're being told that

by the perpetrator a lot of the time.

371

Like, if you didn't do this,

I wouldn't need to do this.

372

You know, they, they're, they're

always warping it to that.

373

Um, and even once the victim

survivor leaves that stay, you

374

know, that psychological abuse is

what stays with people the most

375

and takes the most work to undo.

376

And some people it never

really truly goes away.

377

Um, which is one of the hardest impacts,

I think, is that, that they're kind of.

378

Self worth and self-belief is always have

this, uh, person in the back of their

379

head saying, you know, you are worthless.

380

No one likes you.

381

Um, you know, all these kind of

things and, and that, that really can

382

stick with people for life, really,

which is, it's such a shame, um,

383

because none of that is their fault.

384

And so I spent a lot of time where,

when I worked frontline with survivors,

385

you know, telling them that they're not

to blame nothing they did, they didn't

386

deserve it because they will target

people who, you know, one of the, um,

387

victim survivors that, um, I listened

to that you'd interviewed, she talked

388

about, she said, I'm not perfect a lot.

389

And, um, that doesn't matter.

390

It doesn't matter what

kind of person you are.

391

You do not deserve, no one deserves

to be treated how he treated people.

392

So, um, that's one of the saddest, um,

the saddest parts about it's then victim

393

survivors are not only internalized

that, but society victim blamed.

394

So society says, whilst you must have done

something, because we have this, uh, this,

395

this theory is called just world theory.

396

And basically what that is, is,

um, in order to function as human

397

beings, sometimes we like to think

good things happen to good people.

398

Bad things happen to bad people.

399

So if something bad happened

to you, so you must have done

400

something to deserve that.

401

And so perpetrators feed off of that.

402

They love that society thinks that

because it just feeds into their

403

world and their warped reality.

404

Um, so, so yeah, I think, oh, you

know, the question you asked me was

405

around that kind of manipulation

and I think he was just extreme.

406

He was extremely skilled gaslighter

manipulator, mask wearer.

407

Um, you know, potential

sociopath, psychopath in

408

terms of his nature, I think.

409

And they, they're just very,

very good at reading people,

410

which is exactly what you said.

411

Dr. G:

412

I think, I think that one of the

interesting things with him and his

413

partners is that he didn't keep a partner.

414

Like he kept rotating through partners.

415

Right.

416

And we think about these domestic violence

perpetrators, how they're so manipulative

417

that they don't want that person to leave.

418

So they will use the animals, they will

use the kids, they will use whatever

419

reason to keep him from leaving.

420

But he was literally tearing

these people down mm-hmm.

421

And then getting rid of them.

422

Mm-hmm.

423

Like, you know, like you're no,

you're no used to me anymore.

424

Next.

425

Yeah.

426

Maya Badham: But I think part of

that, do you know, I think, I can't

427

remember if I said it just now, or I

said it before we started recording.

428

I think that part.

429

Is like that.

430

Yes, he's a, he's a da perpetrator and

potentially like psychopathic sociopathic

431

because with a lot of perpetrators,

they, um, are triggered by separation.

432

So separation is the most high risk time

for domestic homicides, uh, to occur.

433

For him, he just seemed to be like,

well, onto the next, you know, he

434

really, really, and so that not caring

at all, I think fits more into that

435

profile of psychopath, sociopath.

436

Um, and also I think arrogance.

437

I think he didn't have

trouble meeting women.

438

I think, you know, he, he, um, he he

puts himself out as an attractive person.

439

So he is quite easily able to

use that, um, um, to his favor.

440

I'll never forget the first

per perpetrator I ever met.

441

He reminds me a little bit of, of

this person, as in I formally met, um,

442

in my work, it was at family court.

443

And 'cause normally obviously I don't

see the perpetrators at all because

444

I work with the survivors, but this

was in family court setting and, um,

445

a lots of people have in their minds

like what a perpetrator looks like.

446

So a perpetrator is someone with

unkept hair and, you know, dirty

447

teeth in a, a trench coat and they,

um, you know, they skulk around in

448

the dark and they're like, dah, dah.

449

And um, you know, this perpetrator

that I met was dressed in a perfectly

450

fitted suit, young, very attractive

looking man, um, just exuded

451

charm, like without even speaking.

452

And so that was my first

true understanding.

453

'cause obviously I'd done my.

454

Uh, training and I knew, oh,

perpetrators can be like that.

455

But when you see them in real life

act like that, look like that,

456

you really start to understand

that perpetrators can be anyone.

457

They can be teachers and doctors

and police officers, and literally

458

your your next door neighbor, your,

uh, your brother, you know, they,

459

they can be anyone, an anyone.

460

And once you start to understand that

that's that first kind of peeling

461

back of the victim blaming, because

then you're not able to pinpoint that.

462

'cause they'll use that as a cover.

463

Like, oh, he can't be, he can't be, you

know, you see it all the time of like,

464

um, child sex abusers who are like, I

don't know, head teachers and they do all

465

this really great work and they volunteer

and they do sports day and all of this.

466

Um, and then what happens is, you

know, one person is brave enough to

467

disclose and they're not believed.

468

Because they're like, how can

that person, that person is?

469

No, don't say that.

470

You know, and you see that in families

too, that, you know, if you are, if we

471

believe this person, then that, then

that shatters that family and victim

472

survivors that weighs heavy on them

to, you know, that, that, that the, the

473

courage it takes to, to, to tell someone

that what's happened shouldn't really

474

be underestimated because it's, it's an

immense bravery brave act to do that.

475

Especially against someone who is

powerful, who has friends in high places,

476

who presents how they do like he did.

477

Um, you know, I think that we should

thank the people that have come forward

478

and spoken, um, and, and, and give them

the respect that they deserve really.

479

Dr. G:

480

Some of the, some of the damage

that he caused, you know, two of

481

his ex-partners ended up dead.

482

Mm-hmm.

483

And he didn't really have a direct hand

on it, but he's still responsible for it.

484

Right.

485

Like, how do you explain that,

you know, from, from A to B?

486

Maya Badham: Yeah.

487

So, um, if you look at the domestic,

so, so we would call, I would

488

call those two as fitting within

domestic abuse related deaths.

489

So that's where, um, you know,

either there's a direct homicide

490

or there's, there's, uh,

domestic abuse related suicide.

491

Or there's like, um, like the sec, sorry,

I can't remember her name, but the, the

492

second one that passed away that, um, I

think from drug addiction or drug use.

493

Yeah, that was Amanda.

494

Yeah.

495

That was directly linked to him.

496

So that wouldn't necessarily fit

into homicide or suicide related,

497

but he created that environment.

498

So, um.

499

I think there's two things.

500

One is the environment in which

the perpetrator creates, um,

501

often makes victim survivors

feel like there's no other way

502

out, and that they can't be free.

503

And there is that person sitting

on their head all the time.

504

And I think this is the other thing that

we need to go heads out of is, um, if it,

505

if their death didn't occur immediately,

um, afterwards or during the course of

506

the relationship that is not linked to

that person because that trauma is with

507

that person for forever, essentially.

508

So, you know, you can have,

um, um, a, a domestic abuse

509

related suicide 10 years on.

510

Maybe they've not even spoken, but

the impact of that relationship has,

511

has haunted basically that person

to which they to, to again, where

512

they feel like there's no way out

but to, but to take their own lives.

513

Um, and so I think he absolutely

is culpable, whether that, you

514

know, I'm talking in a moral sense.

515

Um, 'cause I, you know, from a legal

sense, I, I can't say over here we

516

have, we've kind of had a shift in that,

in terms we're trying to shift that.

517

So if the, if someone does end their

own life as a res direct result of

518

domestic abuse, um, that that person

is held accountable through like

519

manslaughter or, you know, some other,

um, kind of, kind of charge, uh,

520

we're still kind of working on that.

521

But I dunno what it's like in the States.

522

So for now, let's just keep it within a

moral, but like within a moral setting, I

523

think, you know, there is that direct link

well, that, that person wouldn't be, uh.

524

That situation if they

had not ever met him.

525

So you, that is like, um, a

direct causal link I think between

526

unfortunately what happened, um, you

know, with them losing their lives

527

and with him, even if he wasn't

physically the one who took their life.

528

Dr. G:

529

One of the other things that, you

know, as we're talking about how

530

they have this control even after the

relationship has ended, you know, I

531

know that that Litsa is really hurt

about the fact that his girlfriend

532

at the time did not come forward and

talk about what had happened to Remy.

533

And you know, it took her a really

long time to actually say, you

534

know, kind of what, what happened.

535

And that is part of that control

still, even after, I mean, he's

536

in prison now and I feel like he

still has that control over people.

537

Maya Badham: Yeah.

538

Yeah.

539

That's, that's completely normal

as in normal for, um, perpetrators

540

to, to exhibit or for, for them

to still continue to have that

541

control over the victim's survivor.

542

And I think, I think it comes down to

like tr the trauma of domestic and,

543

and cove control not really being truly

understood and in like a meaningful way.

544

Uh, uh, these, I mean, uh, she talks

a lot and the victim survivor, she

545

talks about like her whole reality,

and that's still, she struggles with,

546

uh, with like the under, you know,

creating her own reality because of

547

the reality which that he created.

548

Um, and that's, that's

very common as well.

549

I mean, I've, I've had survivors

who have come out of relationships,

550

and it doesn't take long as well.

551

Like PE people think, oh, you know, oh,

they were only together for two months.

552

Oh, they were only together

for six months or a year.

553

Um, really that, that doesn't really

matter because what really matters is

554

the tightness of the course of control.

555

So how much control was there that

directly correlates to kind of impact

556

and, and, and kind of ongoing impact

as well because, uh, the higher

557

the control, the higher the risk.

558

And I think he's a

extremely dangerous person.

559

Um, and when you are living with an

extremely dangerous person, you are

560

lots of the type your, the victim

survivor's brain switches to survival.

561

And that doesn't always look neat and

pretty to the outside world, but when

562

you look at it through a trauma-informed

lens, you can see that, um, there is a

563

reason why they're acting a certain way.

564

And I think, um, you know, she, the

victim's survivor you're talking

565

about, she, she spoke about,

she actually didn't know a lot

566

actually about what was going on.

567

So, um, and, and I know she, she feels

herself a lot of, um, guilt around that.

568

And, um, that's not uncommon either.

569

I don't think any blame should

be placed on her at all.

570

Um, um, although I think it's,

it's valid for other people to, to,

571

to kind of have those questions.

572

Um, but from like a, a, um, a

victim kind of rights perspective

573

and from a trauma-informed

lens, it makes complete sense.

574

Um, that she even talks about, you know,

first of all there's that reality of

575

just, you know, he's created and that,

you know, he could probably spin it,

576

that, I mean, even, even yourself, you

talked about he, it's plausible, like

577

what he was saying seemed plausible.

578

So, and she talks about coming from

a non-animal background, non welfare

579

background, you know, so you've

got someone with no experience.

580

So first of all, he's putting her,

if you look at it from, um, like

581

a work perspective as an employer.

582

He's putting her in a risk and a

dangerous situation because she's

583

got no background, no training, and

he's not even offering any of that.

584

He's then isolating her, taking away her

finances, so economically abusing her,

585

and then not least, um, you know, reducing

her self-esteem, which we know from her,

586

you know, she's talked candidly about

having a previous relationship that, uh,

587

she called it unhealthy, but likely it,

it would come under coercive control.

588

And so that put previous partners, al

already kind of laid the groundwork for

589

Steve to come in and kind of build on it.

590

Um, and she, she was a, he absolutely

did the entrapment process, uh, with her.

591

Um, came in as that white savior

came in as, um, you know, helping

592

live together really quickly.

593

Um, quickly took control of e

the economics never paid her.

594

For any work that she did do, made her

live in what sounds like squalor a lot of

595

the other time that he, she was talking.

596

So, um, our brains are just, you know,

when we're in that traumatic situation,

597

it, it can just turn inward in terms

of I can only try and survive this.

598

And, you know, um, someone on

the other episodes talked about a

599

previous girlfriend talking about

he threatened her with a gun.

600

I'm almost certain there'd

be threats to kill spattered

601

throughout all of the relationships.

602

Um, and so that fear, that that real,

real deep seated fear every single

603

minute, um, of the day, really takes

a huge toll on victim survivors.

604

You know, a lot of the time they'll

also, um, manipulate their, their,

605

or like disrupt their sleep.

606

They'll force substances on them.

607

So they're keeping them depend,

like isolated, dependent.

608

And so, um, it's a really

tricky thing to look at and say.

609

It's really, it is really easy to

look from the outside and think,

610

why, why didn't you do that?

611

Why did you go along with this?

612

Why do, but ultimately, um, the, the

real, the reality for I think that,

613

um, victim survivors is much different.

614

Um, and really they are, they are,

they are just preoccupied with

615

trying to keep that person happy

so that they don't turn on them.

616

I mean, I'm really surprised that that his

history, you know, you said there'd been

617

no previous, uh, to our knowledge, any

previous police reports around violence

618

and I mean, there's been these like

anecdotally, you know, people talking

619

about his previous past, but I think

620

he is a high risk perpetrator, um, and,

and a real danger to, to, to people, but

621

women and animals obviously, especially.

622

Um, and I think also we just don't know,

unless you're in that situation, you

623

just don't under don't understand or,

or appreciate the, like, um, that the

624

depth of, of that, um, and the heaviness

that that has, um, on a person and on

625

their, on their mental health as well.

626

Um, so yeah, I hope

that that kind of helps.

627

Dr. G:

628

Yeah.

629

Well, and something interesting

that we had discussed previously was

630

about how people blame victims for

falling into the same pattern, right?

631

From going from one situation

into the next situation.

632

Yeah.

633

And it's not really on the

victim, it's on the perpetrator.

634

Right.

635

Maya Badham: So perpetrators

will, they're very skilled at

636

picking their victim survivors.

637

So they will pick people that,

um, have sadly the hallmarks

638

of a previous relationship.

639

I mean, he knew she was still in that

relationship when she met him, so

640

he knew that, um, that relationship

wasn't good and that there were things

641

going wrong and that she wanted out.

642

So he became the, out like he

became that, um, uh, the out.

643

And so the other thing is

that domestic abuse is common.

644

People really think that it's,

oh, it doesn't really happen.

645

You like globally, it's one in three

women will experience some form of

646

violence and abuse throughout their life.

647

Often.

648

Uh, what we're seeing now is, um,

women are more likely to have multiple.

649

Acts of violence across their life or,

or abuse over the course of their life.

650

Um, and there's just

a lot of perpetrators.

651

I think again, we just

mis, we misunderstand the

652

sheer scale of the problem.

653

Um, and so we default to, um, a

bit like we just talked about,

654

that just worthy through that while

you must have done something, you

655

know, there's a problem with you.

656

Rather than look at the history

of this person, what is the common

657

denominate between all these women?

658

Is this is him.

659

Um, so that, that's, that's what

they'll do, that they'll pick people.

660

And even if they pick someone who

hasn't had a history of domestic

661

abuse, they might, might have a history

of, uh, struggles with addiction.

662

They might have a history

of childhood, um, abuse.

663

They might have a, um, a

history of something else.

664

But ultimately, like I said just now,

it doesn't have to have, be a history of

665

anything is we all have vulnerabilities.

666

They, they look for people that

have something that they love.

667

And they look.

668

Um, one of the things I'll do immediately,

like we talked about, is, um, they'll

669

be very intense often about this, but

they'll, they're mining for information

670

which makes them look like they're

actually very interested in what you

671

have to say, which is very attractive

quality, especially for women.

672

'cause we're not really listened to

that much generally on the whole.

673

Um, and so it's very unusual.

674

And so we kind of feel

675

well they, they create a sense of

safety, a false sense of safety and

676

security, uh, which will then, they'll

then go on to continually exploit.

677

Um, but they want to know as

much about you as possible.

678

So we, we give away information.

679

And that's not a blame on us because

I mean, like you said, if you have a

680

child, so one of the first questions

when you're dating is, you know,

681

oh no, do you have any children?

682

Oh yeah, I have children.

683

And they'll even groom the children

in some cases and or the animal.

684

So, um, they'll like get

the animal to like them.

685

They'll be really nice to the animal

and those, those who have animals.

686

So I think also this myth around like,

oh, animals know if they're a bad person.

687

No, like most of the time, no.

688

Like lots of bad people have

pets that like, love them.

689

So, um, yes, I think, I think there is

something to that in some circumstances.

690

But on the whole, if you are nice to an

animal, they, they're gonna like, they

691

take you at face value a lot of the time.

692

So, um.

693

But people have this myth that, oh, you

know, oh, he was so good with the animal.

694

The animal liked him.

695

And that's also nice for us.

696

'cause we feel like, oh, they

accept, they're accepted and oh,

697

they, you know, they came and they

were really pleasant to my child.

698

They maybe brought my child a gift,

you know, so they're grooming everyone.

699

Um, and we all have something

that can be exploited.

700

Dr. G:

701

One of the interesting things too, that

we were talking about is, you know, how

702

people that grow up to love animals is

because as children, they, and you know,

703

like in, in, in my experience, my personal

experience, you know, I had dogs and I

704

would feel more comfortable being with

the dogs, that being with some of the

705

people, like the dogs were not judgmental,

you know, and, and that kind of stuff.

706

Um, but he, from anything that I

have seen or heard, and even from

707

talking to him, I don't think

that he ever grew up with animals.

708

So that would make it.

709

Rare, right?

710

That as a, as an adult, he would all of a

sudden develop this attachment to animals.

711

Maya Badham: Yeah.

712

I, I don't think he did have

an at attachment to animals.

713

I think, um, uh, uh, those who want

to exploit people, exploit animals.

714

So it's just like a mechanism.

715

I think for him it was a mechanism, a

mechanism to get to what he actually

716

wanted, which was money, fame

717

to inflict pain for probably for

pleasure to, he got out of it.

718

I, I think that the animals

were literally just a mechanism.

719

A bit like, um, I watched a documentary,

well, a bit like, you know, the first

720

thing that comes to mind is like, like

the Tiger King guy and the roadside

721

road, uh, roadside zoo people.

722

Um, they think that they like

animals, that they love animals,

723

but actually it's all exploitation.

724

Um, for money and obviously, obviously

your note, you know, that animal abuse

725

links to organized crime, gangs, guns,

sexual violence, domestic, you know,

726

it, it links to loads of offshoots.

727

Um, and so animals you think about like,

um, people that do backyard breeding

728

and puppy farming and all of that,

that's not because they like puppies

729

and they like, they like money and

they like things to exploit things.

730

So the animals are just like a mechanism

and, and like I think you said before,

731

um, there is no better real, really sector

to find people to exploit because, um,

732

animal people really care so deeply.

733

Um, and that is a vulnerability and

it is a really good vulnerability.

734

People should care, you know?

735

Right.

736

But you know, like, um, they, it shouldn't

be that we have to, as a society, care

737

less because someone may exploit it.

738

It's, um, it's a real shame that they do.

739

Um, but I don't want people to

think, think, sit there now thinking,

740

analyzing themselves as, oh my

gosh, of all these vulnerabilities.

741

Like they are the best part of you.

742

You know?

743

And it's not on us when other

people look to undermine that.

744

Um, there's no blame, blame or

shame should be honest for that.

745

Um, because they are

very good at, good at it.

746

But yeah, I think the animals were,

I think he could have stumbled

747

into a number of different things.

748

Just so happens he stumbled into animals.

749

Um, so, so yeah, that's what I think

about kind of why he used animals.

750

Dr. G:

751

Yeah.

752

And from his previous experience,

you know, he talks about when he

753

was in California before he came to

Ohio, that he ran a homeless shelter.

754

And then he also was part

of a veterans, uh, type

755

place.

756

So, you know, he is looking for that kind

of population that needs help and that

757

will get the public, you know, worked

up into trying to, trying to help them.

758

Maya Badham: Yeah.

759

But his ego is just so dominant because

he, um, you just remind me when I was

760

listening to that podcast where he was

talking about h helping out the, you know,

761

he talks about giving the homeless, um,

and how this person a lift in his like

762

amazing car, in his convertible car, and

763

Dr. G:

764

it was like the best ride of his life.

765

Steffen Baldwin: We were a

homeless resource center, not a

766

shelter, so there was no beds.

767

If you wanted a bed, you had to

go down to the Salvation Army,

768

which was like five miles away.

769

And it was typically reserved for women

and children first, and then men just

770

kind of got the leftovers, you know,

as, as it should be if you're homeless.

771

Yeah.

772

The women and children

need the shelter the most.

773

So there was a couple of dudes

and they're like, oh man, look,

774

we never make it there in time.

775

You know, we're just gonna

go sleep on the streets.

776

And I had my 65 Dodge Dart and I was

like, you guys wanna ride my car?

777

And so it was convertibles.

778

I popped the top.

779

I had a little power convertible

button to hit the button goes back,

780

Josh Boyer: they're probably so stoked.

781

Steffen Baldwin: Oh, they were so stoked.

782

I wish I, there was like,

783

So cell phones existed, but no

one was taking pictures with them.

784

Really.

785

Like we were still just

calling and texting.

786

There was no selfie camera.

787

Dr. G:

788

Yeah.

789

It was like,

790

Maya Badham: you are just your,

it's just, it's just unbelievable.

791

Like the, the kind of ego that he had

was massive and, um, just, yeah, yeah,

792

just really warped sense of self.

793

Complete.

794

Yeah.

795

Dr. G:

796

Well, and that's why when he was, uh, the,

the director at the Union County Humane

797

Society, which was the first job that he

got, by lying to them and saying that he

798

had all this experience, which he really

didn't have, but he even talks on, on the

799

one podcast about how that wasn't enough.

800

You know, he was doing this

for the dogs, this was doing

801

that, and it just wasn't enough.

802

Mm-hmm.

803

And then he started doing the

humane agent and rescuing dogs,

804

and then that gave him that high,

but he couldn't do what he wanted.

805

And I think primarily as part of the

Humane Society, you know it, when, when

806

you're part of a, of a group and you do

something, the group did something and

807

that doesn't reflect directly on just him.

808

So he left to create his own

group so that it can be, you

809

know, like the, the one man show.

810

And then he's actually.

811

Saving these animals, he's actually

protecting things and he can

812

start drawing money for himself.

813

Yeah.

814

Yeah.

815

Um, and one of the things that you

said earlier on was about how these

816

personalities look for positions of power.

817

And by becoming a humane agent, he,

he even said, which is not true,

818

that he had full police powers

and he had a gun that was part of

819

his uniform, which is not true.

820

He was not allowed to carry a gun,

but he had a gun and he had a badge.

821

And he presented himself as not

only a humane officer for Union

822

County, but for every county in

Ohio, which is also not a thing.

823

You have to be a humane

agent for each county.

824

So it was this ultimate, you know, like

self-made power trip that he got into.

825

Maya Badham: Yeah.

826

That does not surprise me in the least.

827

Um, yeah, absolutely.

828

They will seek, seek.

829

Uh, positions where they, they

can have more power, more control.

830

And I think, you know, the, the officer

even said that, um, it became clear

831

that it was like a one man show.

832

Um, and probably because he didn't

wanna share, because I don't

833

think he's capable of like, even

understanding the word share.

834

Um, but, you know, um, that makes,

that fits with him completely, I think.

835

Dr. G:

836

Yeah, that was one of the, that was one

of the things, and actually it was one

837

of the charges that he had as far as

theft and corruption because he, his

838

nonprofit was partners with our nonprofit.

839

However, he raised the money

and he was supposed to split

840

the money and he never did.

841

He would keep it all, and then he was

keeping the money for his nonprofit.

842

But not even using it for the animals,

he was using it for himself, you know?

843

Yeah.

844

He's like buying himself things.

845

He was paying for his rent, he

was paying for his child support

846

out of the, out of the nonprofit.

847

Maya Badham: And he

bought guns with it too.

848

Yeah, yeah,

849

Dr. G:

850

yeah.

851

So, you know, it's like, yeah,

I what you're saying as far

852

as he doesn't wanna share.

853

Yeah, he definitely didn't wanna share.

854

Yeah,

855

Maya Badham: yeah.

856

Yeah.

857

It's classic, unfortunately.

858

I mean, kind of fortunately, because

it meant that no one else was involved

859

in that perpetration, which, 'cause the

other thing, and, and I'm not saying

860

that this happened with, uh, with,

with his victim survivors, but one of

861

the other things that perpetrators,

criminal perpetrators will do is they

862

will, um, purposely include the victim

survivor in their criminal activity.

863

To make, make them kind

of, um, as a, a blackmail.

864

So, you know, if anything happens

to, to me, you are coming down with

865

me because you are a complicit.

866

Um, so often, you know, if, if the person

is a, uh, drug dealer, they'll make the,

867

the victim survivor deal drugs or do the

accounting, you know, they'll be involved.

868

They'll, they, they'll, um,

force them to be involved in some

869

way with the criminal activity.

870

And so I'm, I'm, I'm not saying that

that's what happened with, with him,

871

but just to say from that wider con

context, that's very common as well.

872

Um, that they'll coerce them

into doing, um, you know,

873

different, um, criminal acts.

874

Dr. G:

875

Switching gears a little bit

from the humans that he harmed

876

to the animals that he harmed.

877

Mm-hmm.

878

Right.

879

Uh, um, I am really interested

in the hoarding issue, right.

880

And hoarding as a mental health disease.

881

And he fits the personality of an

exploiter hoarder because he kept

882

accumulating all of these dogs,

but he was literally using them

883

for, you know, he wasn't doing it

because he cared about the dogs.

884

Yeah.

885

He was doing it for his own gain.

886

Maya Badham: A hundred percent.

887

I mean, it, it's very clear that he,

he didn't care about animals at all.

888

Um, I mean, what can we say

in terms of like, the impact

889

on the animals themselves?

890

It's just so hard to think,

even think about, isn't it?

891

You know, not so, you know,

not least because animals

892

lost their lives as a result.

893

I mean, I, I've been calling him, so I,

I met with a friend, um, earlier and I

894

said, I'm doing this, like speaking with

Alba later about this, this guy, because

895

obviously in the UK he's not, we didn't

really know anything about this case.

896

So I've had to do a bit of a

deep dive and, um, I called him

897

a serial killer of dogs because

ultimately he is a serial killer.

898

Like that is exactly what he does.

899

He has an mo, he has like a method.

900

Uh, he has the opportunity, you know,

that is kind of what he, he's doing.

901

Um, but it fits what you are saying

because I don't think he's killing

902

because he necessarily enjoys killing.

903

I can't say for sure.

904

I think possibly there's like,

there is some element of that, but

905

he's killing because he kind of,

um, it's linked directly to that

906

financial as it is linked to red.

907

It serves.

908

Yeah.

909

Um, but I think, you know, the state

that, you know, um, the victim's further

910

talked about that they were living in,

in terms of neglect that intersection

911

with neglect and how I think, um,

Litsa also mentioned, and she made

912

a really good point, you know, that.

913

Um, if you're even gonna try and help

dogs with behavioral issues, improve the

914

environment is the first place you start.

915

And she talked about how, you know, um,

shelters are often not the best place

916

to see the true dog anyway because

there's fear in all these other things.

917

But it seems like that was just

replicated in his, his, in his

918

facility, if you can call it that.

919

You know, that, um, he was never

gonna be successful or it was

920

a very slim chance of him being

successful anyway because he created

921

an environment of such little care.

922

Um, and I think therefore his culpability

goes beyond only the dogs that died

923

and to those dogs who were further

traumatized further behaviorally.

924

Now, you know, behaviorally

have additional issues that may.

925

May never trust again.

926

You know, all these additional impacts

on the animal that he's left, like that

927

legacy, um, of trauma that he's left on,

not just the dogs, um, in that facility,

928

but the ones that we, you know, we, you

and I talked about the ones that were

929

placed inappropriately and the like,

widespread ramifications go so much wider

930

than just, you know, you know, that,

that circle, um, that direct circle in

931

which he was kind of interacting with.

932

Um, and then I think, you know,

you talked about him training.

933

I mean, it's just, so then that's not

necessarily even with it all, but he's

934

probably spreading misinformation.

935

So like the, and then you've got

someone out there who thinks what he

936

taught them was right and it's just

doesn't, it's just, just mind boggling.

937

The sheer ripple effect that this one

person has had on so many people and

938

so many animals and will continue to

have for several years as a result,

939

really, until all of those dogs that he

ever lives he ever touched, pass away.

940

He, and, and then humans too,

he will remain, there will

941

be essence of him remaining.

942

And that's one of the, the biggest things

that annoys me about perpetrators is

943

that you are never truly rid of them as

long as they're kind of alive and you are

944

alive, especially if they have children

with you, have children with them.

945

Or if you have shared custody of an animal

with them that post separation abuse and

946

essentially, I think this could easily

fit into kind of that, to be honest.

947

Dr. G:

948

Yeah.

949

And you know, one of the things that

he said that is somewhat true is the

950

fact that, you know, an animal can be

in a, in a shelter situation and act

951

aggressively or, or have a certain

behavior and then you take him out of

952

that into a home and then they do better.

953

So for, for what he did, he was

taking dogs that had no history of

954

biting, had no history of aggression,

and after living with him, they

955

bit someone, they had problems.

956

Right.

957

So you would think that going into

his home, his sanctuary, like these

958

animals are going to flourish.

959

And in the contrary, they

just declined significantly.

960

Yeah, yeah,

961

Maya Badham: yeah.

962

I mean, you, and you would see that

if you replaced the word dog with

963

child, you know, they have the, the,

the cognitive ability and emotional

964

capacity of around a toddler.

965

And I think, you know, you would

see that that's neglect, emotional,

966

physical, environmental neglect

leads to trauma and then trauma leads

967

to what you've just talked about.

968

So, so yeah, I mean it's just,

where's it even start and end with

969

that, you know, there's so much harm.

970

Dr. G:

971

How does it, how does it play?

972

You know, because he, he even harm,

well, not physically, but monetarily,

973

he took advantage of a homeless person.

974

He fundraised for this homeless

person, and then he didn't, he

975

kept all the money for himself.

976

Mm-hmm.

977

And you have to lack empathy completely.

978

Right.

979

To be able to do something like that

and come out of it without any issues.

980

Maya Badham: Yeah.

981

That's why I think he fits the

psychopath, sociopath potential, you know?

982

Uh, what's it like criteria,

because, um, I really don't think

983

he has the capacity to empathize.

984

I think he's driven purely on exploitation

and what he can get from people,

985

which is where I think, you know, um.

986

There are different kind of

like typologies of perpetrator.

987

And that's why I think he fits this,

like this specific type because um, when

988

you're looking at kind of a family, you

know, a family perpetrator where it's

989

kind of contained, um, so yes, they

might still groom, they're like nab

990

their neighbors and their work, whatever.

991

But this was like mass scale,

geographic crossing, geo geographic

992

lines, you know, um, even,

993

Dr. G:

994

even other countries he

995

Maya Badham: had, yeah,

996

Dr. G:

997

he took animals from other countries

and, you know, made them think that he

998

was gonna give these dogs a better life.

999

And he ended up euthanizing them too.

01:00:56,172 --> 01:00:56,592

Maya Badham: Yeah.

01:00:57,222 --> 01:00:57,612

Yeah.

01:00:57,762 --> 01:01:00,312

Which is why I just think

he, he is, there's like just

01:01:00,312 --> 01:01:01,602

different ingredients for him.

01:01:01,602 --> 01:01:07,362

Like just the massive ego, um,

like the, the, the kind of.

01:01:08,412 --> 01:01:13,092

Um, reach, you know, there's, there's

quite, he had like an unusual reach.

01:01:13,152 --> 01:01:16,182

Um, and I know like the officer talked

about this in the, in the episode, you

01:01:16,182 --> 01:01:20,112

know, where he, he came down and he was

like a bit worried about saying like, oh,

01:01:20,112 --> 01:01:23,772

he's a bit of a star here and we're gonna

have to like, convince them basically to,

01:01:24,162 --> 01:01:29,742

and there's that is, that is just, um,

do you know, I listened to that episode

01:01:29,862 --> 01:01:37,812

and I was like really impressed because,

um, so many police, police officers

01:01:38,022 --> 01:01:41,952

and law enforcement people just don't

understand, you know, it's over here.

01:01:41,952 --> 01:01:47,262

It is a daily battle to get them to

understand, um, kind of coercive control.

01:01:47,262 --> 01:01:47,652

I don't know.

01:01:47,742 --> 01:01:50,772

It wasn't specifically do

coercive control, but from

01:01:50,772 --> 01:01:53,052

like that, um, he had a status.

01:01:54,087 --> 01:01:57,747

Um, that, that is to some

people quite important.

01:01:58,287 --> 01:02:01,917

And, you know, at every stage, you know,

the, the person then, I can't remember

01:02:01,922 --> 01:02:05,637

the, the exact title that he had, but

you know, he approved it and I was just

01:02:05,637 --> 01:02:07,617

like, this is, this is what it should be.

01:02:07,617 --> 01:02:08,097

Like.

01:02:08,097 --> 01:02:12,837

You know, this just went really well,

uh, everyone and kind of did their part.

01:02:13,137 --> 01:02:16,977

But it could easily have not, he

could easily have got away with this.

01:02:16,977 --> 01:02:21,177

I mean, he did get away with it for

a very long time, but if we hadn't

01:02:21,177 --> 01:02:26,637

had as dedicated officers, you, you

didn't have, and I know there was

01:02:26,637 --> 01:02:29,457

issues at the start, you know, where

people weren't taking it seriously.

01:02:29,457 --> 01:02:35,337

And I don't wanna invalidate that,

but, um, it could easier fallen apart.

01:02:35,547 --> 01:02:39,207

And I think even in the first episode,

uh, no, it might have been the second

01:02:39,207 --> 01:02:44,637

episode, you know, where the officer said,

if we had just left this at Remy only,

01:02:45,777 --> 01:02:47,427

he would've probably just walked out.

01:02:47,937 --> 01:02:51,147

It might have got fine or something,

or, you know, and that speaks to

01:02:51,147 --> 01:02:53,127

kind of how we view animal cruelty.

01:02:54,897 --> 01:02:58,482

More broadly is like less

important as kind of, and that's

01:02:58,482 --> 01:03:00,162

why I think, um, it's a shame.

01:03:00,162 --> 01:03:05,712

I think there was a missed opportunity

to make a better link towards him

01:03:05,712 --> 01:03:09,912

and coercive control and I mean,

I've just remembered that over here.

01:03:09,912 --> 01:03:15,192

So there's a campaign over here to

expand the cos of control legislation.

01:03:15,372 --> 01:03:20,442

So in the uk, um, we mainly, um, use cos

of control legislation in the domestic

01:03:20,442 --> 01:03:25,452

abuse legislation for intimate partners

or ex-partners or family members.

01:03:25,752 --> 01:03:30,612

So there's some sort of like

relation aspect, but what they're

01:03:30,612 --> 01:03:34,872

talking about is expanding that

to include like non relations.

01:03:34,932 --> 01:03:35,982

So I do a lot of work.

01:03:36,402 --> 01:03:40,122

I, um, or I've done some work, maybe a

lot is a bit of a stretch, but some work

01:03:40,122 --> 01:03:45,222

with like the, um, national working group

on spiritual and ritual abuse and uh, uh,

01:03:45,252 --> 01:03:49,692

so, so they're talking about like those

who, um, you know, like religious leaders

01:03:49,692 --> 01:03:52,092

that exploit people to give money cults.

01:03:53,187 --> 01:03:59,337

Um, they use coercive control tactics

is exactly the same tactics, but they're

01:03:59,337 --> 01:04:01,797

not covered under the legislation

because they're not an intimate

01:04:01,797 --> 01:04:03,387

partner, ex-partner, or family member.

01:04:03,927 --> 01:04:10,047

So what I see Steven doing, or

Stepan, is he is u he is coercively

01:04:10,047 --> 01:04:13,317

controlling many, many different people.

01:04:13,587 --> 01:04:17,007

So I think it would've been a good,

would've been good if there was like

01:04:17,127 --> 01:04:23,067

some links or more links made like that

because that speaks to his danger level.

01:04:23,907 --> 01:04:26,997

Um, 'cause I think most of the case,

if I'm correct, centered really

01:04:26,997 --> 01:04:31,377

around kind of the fraud and the ex

animal cruelty side of things, right?

01:04:31,377 --> 01:04:31,587

Yeah.

01:04:31,587 --> 01:04:32,457

The theft, the

01:04:32,697 --> 01:04:32,698

Dr. G:

01:04:32,698 --> 01:04:34,932

corruption, and then the

animal cruelty, which,

01:04:35,007 --> 01:04:37,377

Maya Badham: which is super

bad, don't get me wrong.

01:04:37,377 --> 01:04:43,346

But then when you add in like violence,

you know, violence towards people,

01:04:43,677 --> 01:04:49,137

coercive control, um, I think if

he's ever released, which, you know,

01:04:49,137 --> 01:04:51,387

there's a chance that, um, that.

01:04:53,592 --> 01:04:58,122

I mean, I, I, I am worried I

would be worried upon release

01:04:58,152 --> 01:04:59,292

on like what he will do.

01:05:00,522 --> 01:05:03,192

Um, it's highly likely he, if,

if he doesn't do anything to

01:05:03,192 --> 01:05:07,542

anyone involved in kind of what

happened, he will find someone else.

01:05:07,542 --> 01:05:12,012

He will continue, he will be a serial

cos of control perpetrator for, for as

01:05:12,012 --> 01:05:18,282

long as he's has access to people, but

especially to kind of intimate partners.

01:05:18,792 --> 01:05:22,602

Um, and then obviously

his children, um, as well.

01:05:22,932 --> 01:05:27,852

I think, I really hope that if he ever

is released that there's like a really

01:05:27,942 --> 01:05:36,342

robust risk assessment and really robust

kind of post-release monitoring of him.

01:05:37,362 --> 01:05:42,852

'cause I think he's, he could be a

case of like, release and something

01:05:42,942 --> 01:05:44,442

really, really bad goes down.

01:05:45,912 --> 01:05:47,322

I truly, truly believe that.

01:05:48,897 --> 01:05:48,898

Dr. G:

01:05:48,898 --> 01:05:49,407

Yeah.

01:05:49,437 --> 01:05:54,777

And you know, we, one of the reasons why I

interviewed James Renner is because James

01:05:54,777 --> 01:05:59,757

Renner was looking into him because of

this missing person named Maura Murray.

01:06:00,207 --> 01:06:04,617

And, you know, it's, some people

are like, oh, could he do that?

01:06:04,617 --> 01:06:08,187

And to me personally, because of

knowing about the link and knowing about

01:06:08,187 --> 01:06:12,357

the animal cruelty and interpersonal

violence, my first thought was, yeah, I

01:06:12,357 --> 01:06:14,397

can totally see him doing this, right?

01:06:14,402 --> 01:06:14,502

Mm-hmm.

01:06:14,587 --> 01:06:18,957

Like, he, he fits the kind of person

that would disappear somebody.

01:06:19,467 --> 01:06:19,737

Yeah.

01:06:20,607 --> 01:06:21,057

Maya Badham: It's about that.

01:06:21,057 --> 01:06:25,797

There's two missing people, women

as well, so his mom as well.

01:06:25,797 --> 01:06:30,777

And so, I mean, who has

that kind of history, right?

01:06:30,777 --> 01:06:35,277

You know, like two, two

women dead, two missing.

01:06:36,357 --> 01:06:38,607

And I'm not, and, and like we

know, you know, I'm not saying

01:06:38,607 --> 01:06:42,177

he was directly complicit in the,

in the, but, but the think the

01:06:42,177 --> 01:06:44,667

common denominator right, is him.

01:06:45,057 --> 01:06:45,357

Yeah.

01:06:45,357 --> 01:06:45,417

So.

01:06:47,217 --> 01:06:48,207

I I the same as you.

01:06:48,207 --> 01:06:53,337

I really, I think for someone to

be able to kill as many animals

01:06:53,757 --> 01:06:57,807

as he did without any emotion.

01:06:57,807 --> 01:07:00,957

'cause um, so in one of the

episodes, talked about what

01:07:00,957 --> 01:07:02,277

he was like in the courtroom.

01:07:02,667 --> 01:07:07,227

So someone talked about the fact that

he kind of, um, inter I think maybe you

01:07:07,227 --> 01:07:14,487

talked about intimidation and the staring

and the, um, smirking and the smugness.

01:07:14,487 --> 01:07:21,717

And that is just again,

classic perpetration tactics.

01:07:21,897 --> 01:07:27,627

So, um, I mean, I had a case once

where, um, the perpetrator would cough

01:07:28,497 --> 01:07:30,417

and that was a witness intimidation.

01:07:30,417 --> 01:07:34,167

I mean, I, I, I dunno how he didn't

get done for wi on top of everything

01:07:34,167 --> 01:07:38,157

for witness intimidation based on what

was said in, you know, he was doing.

01:07:38,817 --> 01:07:41,697

Um, but I also know in the states

you don't have access to, um.

01:07:43,137 --> 01:07:45,357

Some of the stuff that we have in

the UK in terms of what we call

01:07:45,357 --> 01:07:46,737

special measures in a courtroom.

01:07:47,187 --> 01:07:52,857

So over here, uh, we can have screens so

the victim can't see the perpetrator and

01:07:52,857 --> 01:07:54,237

the perpetrator can't see the victim.

01:07:54,837 --> 01:07:59,096

Or sometimes the victim can give evidence

from outside of the courtroom through

01:07:59,096 --> 01:08:05,217

a video link so that that reduces the

likelihood of them being able to kind

01:08:05,217 --> 01:08:10,377

of witness, intimidate, but also from a

trauma perspective for vi for the victim

01:08:10,377 --> 01:08:14,427

survivors that they feel as comfortable

as possible to give their evidence.

01:08:14,846 --> 01:08:18,807

Um, that's kind of an important

kind of mechanism that we have

01:08:18,807 --> 01:08:20,487

here that I don't think you have.

01:08:20,697 --> 01:08:20,698

Dr. G:

01:08:20,698 --> 01:08:21,747

No, it's not.

01:08:21,747 --> 01:08:26,517

And the, and, you know, going into,

into the courtroom, like the, you

01:08:26,517 --> 01:08:32,517

know, we have video of the, of the

courtroom and we were literally

01:08:32,517 --> 01:08:36,086

sitting testifying right next to him.

01:08:36,792 --> 01:08:42,971

So it's the chair, uh, a small,

you know, like gap in between

01:08:43,002 --> 01:08:47,051

where I was sitting and the defense

table, and he's right there.

01:08:47,051 --> 01:08:47,142

Mm-hmm.

01:08:47,742 --> 01:08:53,051

Um, you know, so it feels like

within reach, it feels very real.

01:08:53,591 --> 01:08:59,381

And he kept in, in my case, and

it probably comes mostly because

01:08:59,381 --> 01:09:03,672

of testifying, like I testify as

an expert witness, so I know how

01:09:03,672 --> 01:09:05,532

to handle myself in, in court.

01:09:05,742 --> 01:09:08,022

So I never made any eye contact with him.

01:09:08,711 --> 01:09:12,462

Um, and I could see him in my

peripheral vision view, um mm-hmm.

01:09:12,469 --> 01:09:15,971

Making faces like moving, like

trying to get my attention.

01:09:15,971 --> 01:09:20,742

His attorney even stood behind him

almost to force me to look at him,

01:09:21,192 --> 01:09:23,442

and I still just kept looking.

01:09:23,772 --> 01:09:27,072

But individuals, especially

individuals that have been under

01:09:27,072 --> 01:09:32,772

his control, are not gonna have

that, that strength to look away.

01:09:33,551 --> 01:09:40,872

From, and from what I see in, in some of

the courtroom testimony is, how do I say?

01:09:40,872 --> 01:09:45,702

Almost like a different person from what,

how I know them outside of the courtroom

01:09:45,702 --> 01:09:50,652

and how they were behaving, the things

that they said outside of the courtroom.

01:09:50,652 --> 01:09:54,912

And then in the courtroom they're just

like, you know, a shell of themselves.

01:09:54,912 --> 01:09:55,632

Like mm-hmm.

01:09:55,872 --> 01:09:58,182

Not, not wanting to say

something because they don't

01:09:58,182 --> 01:09:59,622

know what's gonna happen to them.

01:10:00,252 --> 01:10:00,642

Maya Badham: Yeah.

01:10:00,732 --> 01:10:01,092

Yeah.

01:10:01,182 --> 01:10:05,442

I mean, it's that, um,

underestimation of like the fear.

01:10:06,402 --> 01:10:13,032

So how terrifying it would be for,

for a victim survivor to stand in

01:10:13,032 --> 01:10:16,262

the same room, let alone that close.

01:10:16,952 --> 01:10:22,767

Um, that alone is enough to enough

kind of rattle someone's ability

01:10:22,767 --> 01:10:24,717

to give their best evidence.

01:10:24,927 --> 01:10:28,317

Which is why, in why in the UK we

have things like special measures

01:10:28,317 --> 01:10:31,767

for what we call what, what the

court calls vulnerable or intimidated

01:10:31,977 --> 01:10:36,237

witnesses because, um, what we want

is them to give their best evidence,

01:10:36,447 --> 01:10:38,007

um, to the best of their ability.

01:10:38,007 --> 01:10:42,027

And, and, and that's undermined in,

in our, in the UK opinion or in my

01:10:42,027 --> 01:10:45,927

opinion, that their ability to do

that is significantly undermined

01:10:46,617 --> 01:10:51,237

when you've got, you know, your,

especially when most domestic abuse

01:10:51,387 --> 01:10:57,267

course of control perpetrators will

also be rapists because you can't give

01:10:57,267 --> 01:10:58,977

consent if there's coercive control.

01:10:58,977 --> 01:11:00,897

Because, I mean, in the UK these are laws.

01:11:00,897 --> 01:11:02,967

There's, in order for there to

be consent, you have to have

01:11:02,967 --> 01:11:04,497

freedom, choice, and capacity.

01:11:05,067 --> 01:11:08,697

And if you are living coercive control,

you do not have choice, capacity,

01:11:08,697 --> 01:11:10,977

and freedom to make informed choices.

01:11:11,247 --> 01:11:16,227

So you are sat next to someone who

is sexually, physically, emotionally

01:11:17,007 --> 01:11:22,347

destroyed you a lot, most of the time, and

you are expected to give best evidence.

01:11:22,407 --> 01:11:28,137

Like it just doesn't make any, and that's

why we have such low conviction rates.

01:11:28,707 --> 01:11:28,917

Yeah.

01:11:28,947 --> 01:11:31,917

Because there's just no

way of getting around that.

01:11:32,307 --> 01:11:36,447

And I think, um, what was really

interesting as well, I've just had

01:11:36,447 --> 01:11:41,187

it here on my notes, was he did this

other classic thing, which is where

01:11:41,187 --> 01:11:43,917

he made himself out to be the victim.

01:11:44,607 --> 01:11:48,897

So he did this classic thing where

he reverses victim perpetrator,

01:11:49,227 --> 01:11:51,357

so poor me, I'm the victim.

01:11:51,357 --> 01:11:52,587

Like they're the bad person.

01:11:53,007 --> 01:11:58,497

Um, that is, that's also really,

really classic perpetrator behavior

01:11:58,707 --> 01:12:03,777

because they just, um, a lot of

the time they don't, it's really

01:12:03,777 --> 01:12:06,837

weird because they kind of know what

they're doing is wrong, but they also.

01:12:07,767 --> 01:12:09,507

Don't acknowledge it, it's wrong.