The case of Steffen Baldwin is often defined by the animals he failed—but the animals were not the end goal. They were a means to power, manipulation, and personal gain.

In this episode, special guest Maya Badham joins us to examine how Baldwin used animals as tools of coercive control—not only over intimate partners, but also over individuals drawn into his schemes. Together, we explore the patterns behind his behavior, how he was able to evade accountability for so long, and why so many people were vulnerable to his manipulation.

This conversation aims to provide a deeper understanding of the dynamics at play—holding Baldwin accountable while recognizing the complexity of victimization, without blame or stigma.

If you found this episode valuable, please consider liking, rating, and sharing. Your support helps us expand our reach, educate others, and advocate for both animals and the people who care for them.

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and her music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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This is Season One State versus

Stefan Baldwin, episode nine,

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the Monster Behind The Mask.

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And I am happy to welcome a special

guest, Maya Badham of the Center

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for Animal Inclusive Safeguarding.

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Maya is a very special guest because

she has a special interest in

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both the assistance of humans and

animals that are victims of domestic

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violence and coercive control.

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So she's going to give us an insight

into Stephan Baldwin's case, but also

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this is going to help in general in the

identification assessment and potentially

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being able to help, uh, victims

and survivors of domestic violence.

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Maya Badham: I'm Maya Badham.

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I'm the founder and CEO of the Center

for Animal Inclusive Safeguarding.

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Uh, but my background spans over a

decade in, um, kind of violence against

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women and girls direct survivor support.

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Um, I have two degrees.

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My first degree is looking at, kind

of gender depression throughout time.

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Um, and my master's is

in human rights law.

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Um, and then my first job out

at uni was at coroner's office.

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So I was doing inquest into suspicious

and then natural deaths, and that's

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where I could then kind of shifted over

to kind of that frontline prevention,

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intervention support with, uh, survivors

of, of domestic and sexual abuse.

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Um, and then I got into, into kind of

animal welfare, um, canine behavior in

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around 2019, uh, with my own dog Podrick.

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And since then I kind of

mashed the two worlds together.

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So now what I do mainly is, uh,

provide training and education to

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across sectors and in between sectors,

trying to get them to understand

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that interlink between interpersonal

violence and um, animal cruelty.

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Um, I also do consultancy and research,

and I'm about to start my PhD in October.

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Um, uh, we'll be looking at the, um,

exploitation of the human canine bond

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as a tactic of cohersive control and the

impact of that on the human and the dog.

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So it'll be one of the first times

dogs have been looked at as kind

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of victims in their own right.

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Um, and I want to look at the kind of

emotional and behavioral impact of living

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in an, a domestic abuse environment on

the dog because we focus previously quite

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a lot on physical impacts, um, and not so

much on that emotional behavioral impact.

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Um, and I currently am doing some

expert witness work with police,

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a police force in the UK on a

case where, um, coercive control

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was used, um, and the animals

featured quite heavily.

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Um, so I'm starting to move more into kind

of that expert witness, um, work as well.

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Dr. G:

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Can you explain to the audience

what coercive of control is?

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Maya Badham: Yeah.

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So coercive control is an act

or pattern of acts of violence

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threats, uh, humiliation,

intimidation that causes fear.

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Um, so, uh, a lot of the time

that that pattern is really

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explicit, uh, and important.

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Um, and the reason why it's important

to talk about coercive control,

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controlling behavior within that wider

domestic abuse context is because

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there is a myth still that domestic

abuse is mainly physical violence.

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Um, whereas the majority of the time, um,

the coercive control is that every day,

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minute by minute abuse that

that person lives with.

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Um, so whilst violence is a part

of that, often a part of that,

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there are some cases where there

is no history of physical violence.

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Um, but there's been very

tight coercive control.

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So what that means is, um, you know,

monitoring someone, so stalking

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behaviors, um, not allowing them to

like live freely and independently.

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So they'll, they'll try to isolate

them, create dependency on them.

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Often there's economic abuse involved

in their, um, manipulation, gaslighting,

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that kind of warping of reality, um,

for the, for the victim survivor.

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Um, and it's.

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You know, been described as kind of

a world of everyday terror, really,

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that there's this, uh, the perpetrator

will create a world a, a set of rules.

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Um, the victim survivor spends all

their energy and time and focus trying

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really hard to, to, to meet those

rules and not break those rules.

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But then what will happen is the

perpetrator will move those roles,

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shift those roles, change those rules,

um, without the knowledge of the

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victim survivors, it's very emotionally

exhausting living, um, in that kind

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of world where they're just trying

to appease the perpetrator as much

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as possible as a survival mechanism.

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Um, which is, uh, why that kind of victim

blaming attitude can sometimes creep in.

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You know, the, if it was that

bad, why didn't you leave?

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If it was that bad, why did you do this?

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Uh, rather than focusing on the, the

person that's creating that environment,

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which is the perpetrator, um, so coersive

control is, um, lessen known really, um,

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from that kind of wider domestic abuse

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Context, but it's really central

to understanding why victim

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survivors behave the way they do.

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Um, how the perpetrator uses specific

tactics to maintain that power and

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control, which is at the center of

ultimately what they, they want.

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Um, and when you talk about, um,

animals, um, so much of what they

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want from animals is rooted in

the same thing, like unconditional

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compliance, unconditional obedience

in all situations, in all contexts.

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There's no room for bad behavior,

no room for anything outside that

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box that they've kind of set.

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Um, and unfortunately that can

end, you know, can have very severe

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consequences for humans and animals.

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Dr. G:

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And then they, they will use

the animals as a method of

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control for the humans, right.

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Maya Badham: Absolutely.

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And that can look like

different things too.

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So again, quite often people will

default down to, um, physical violence,

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so hitting the animal, um, killing the

animal, um, which is absolutely can be

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a part of that, that wider, um, tactics.

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But actually it can be as simple

as threat, a threat to harm.

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Um, and that's a really powerful

tactic because for many of us who

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have animals or, or share our lives

with animals, you just have to think.

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If someone threatened to harm my animal,

I would do, I would comply with whatever

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that person wants me to do because

I don't want my animal to be harmed.

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So we, we sometimes forget that

there's all these other non, what

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we call like a non-contact offense,

like a non-contact, uh, piece of

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violence, but it's emotional violence.

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Uh, psychological violence.

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It can be things like economic abuse.

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So not allowing them to buy food, not

allowing them to do parasite prevention,

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not allowed to take them to the vet,

um, without there being consequences.

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Um, so the use of animals is much

more wider, you know, even down

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to kind of stalking behaviors.

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So the use of kind of GPS trackers

on the collar and, um, lying to

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kind of microchip companies to find

out an address when someone moves.

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Like the, the use of animals is, is the,

the depth of the entanglement of the

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tactics is, is a lot deeper than what I

think a lot of people first understand

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when they think about the use of animals.

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Dr. G:

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Our second episode is the rabbit

hole because there's just so

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much to it and everything that.

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That I keep finding.

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It's like there's more and more and

more and more, and this has been

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a huge task to undertake, right?

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Like making this, this season just

because it's kind of like never ending.

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But I think the big question is

kinda who is this person and how

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does he get away with doing this

for such a long period of time?

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Um, now when we were discussing,

before we were talking about his

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childhood, so let's start there.

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Let's start kinda like with

the beginning of a monster.

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Like how, how, how do you feel that

his childhood affected who he became?

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And is that a reason or an excuse?

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Maya Badham: So I think I said to you as

well beforehand, we only have his word

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for kind of what his childhood was like.

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And I, I honestly don't know how we would

ever in disentangle, like truth from

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lies from what he says, because every

other word he says is, is, is a lie.

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I think, um, um, however, if we take

what he said about his childhood as even

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semi true, um, I think, you know, it's

not unusual for perpetrators of violence

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and abuse to have troubled childhoods.

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However, in my sector, we, we

are very clear that, um, domestic

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abuse coercive control is an active

choice to perpetrators choose to

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abuse someone, and there's never

an excuse for their behavior.

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So, whilst I'm sure if what he says is

correct, he was, there is trauma there

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from his childhood, which I think, um,

does impact people in different ways,

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um, it's not, it's too simplistic and

reductionist to say, oh, he had this,

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uh, childhood experience, therefore.

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Um, he's acting like this because it takes

part of the responsibility away from him.

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Um, and there are many people out there

who have had horrendous childhoods,

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really, really negative traumatic

childhoods who do not go on to abuse other

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people, who do not go on to be violent.

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So, um, there has to be an, and so

yes, maybe there was a violence and

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abuse or something happening in his

childhood, but plus something else

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that made him behave how he did.

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And when we talk about perpetrators,

uh, male perpetrators against female

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victim survivors, a lot of that and

comes from misogyny, sexism, and

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living in a patriarchal environment,

which allows them to basically act

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this way with, with impunity because

of the way in which we police or

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don't police crimes against women.

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So, um, I think we can't, uh, take away

his experiences as part of who he is,

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and it would be a disservice to do that.

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Um, but I think it's

not the whole picture.

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Um, and I'd love to see a psych eval.

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I think your last guest also also was

kind of quite interested in, in, but the

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thing is they will manipulate everyone.

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They will manipulate professionals.

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They will manipulate, uh, public,

they will manipulate obviously,

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their intimate partners and their

families and their children.

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So even the most skilled professional

with him, I think would be hard pressed

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to try and detangle like exactly what's

going in on inside his, his head.

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Um, but certainly I think, you

know, um, his childhood probably

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didn't help, um, who he, who he was.

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But I think, you know, it can

never be, or should never be given

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as an excuse for his behavior.

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And I think the accountability and the

responsibility for his, his actions

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and behavior should remain on him.

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Dr. G:

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He is obviously very good at

lying and very good at making

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people believe his lies.

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Um, and, and some of that has to come

from being good at reading people, right?

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Like how, how do, how do people, you

know, it's not just the women that he

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abused, but also the people that he took

advantage of, I mean, myself included.

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So, um, how, how does that happen?

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Maya Badham: So, very similar to how,

um, child abusers a pedophiles groom,

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their victim survivors, the perpetrators

will groom everyone around them because

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there's no better protection than people

who won't believe the truth because

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they've got this kind of, uh, mass.

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So what you'll often find is perpetrators

who are well-known members of the

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community, well, respected members

of the community, um, they will

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often seek, um, positions of power.

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So, you know, um, he was, he had a history

of, I know there's confusion about exactly

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what he did in the military, but he

was, you know, in there at some point.

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Um, and often perpetrators are drawn

to profession, professions where

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they can have some sort of power and

control or, um, exhibit kind of rigid,

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rigid kind of rules a lot of the time.

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So military policing, um, you

know, other kind of official roles.

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And, you know, you talked about, um,

uh, he became like executive director

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of the Humane Society, was it?

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Yeah.

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The Humane Society.

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Yeah.

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So, so like that is perfect for someone

who wants to portray themselves as a

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trusted professional, um, someone to be

admired and looked up to and revered even.

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And I think he really, um,

wanted that, that re reveration.

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I don't, you know, that God-like

complex, um, that just huge ego.

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Um, that was I think a, a big motivating

part for a lot of what he did, but also

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it's a, a great exploitation tactic

in getting money, which was obviously

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a huge part of his, his kind of, um,

uh, crime crimes that he did was.

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You know, scamming people out of money.

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And what you find a lot of the time is,

uh, perpetrators and narcissists and

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psychopath, sociopath, they like money.

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There is like a, a thing

around having money.

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And I think that's also where,

going back to his childhood, I, I

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don't think he had a lot of money.

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I think there were periods of time

where he didn't have a lot of money.

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And so that, again, that's not an excuse,

but that may feed into some of that

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motivating behavior around money is that

fear of being without money sparked his

215

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need almost to have an extreme amount

of control, um, over kind of money.

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And partly, I, I personally

think he, he got some sort of

217

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pleasure out of scamming people.

218

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I think there was probably something

going on in his brain when he

219

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successfully did these things.

220

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That gave him a bit of a kick, a

bit like almost like an addiction,

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which I know he also had, uh,

struggles with, with, um, addiction.

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And, um, I think that that, like,

that was, I think, could fed into that

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mentality of more and more, more rising

up the ladder, being seen as this

224

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person, uh, whilst being someone else.

225

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Again, I think that probably gave him a

little bit of a kick because I dunno if

226

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you used that phrase in the States, but it

gave him like something Yeah, it gave him

227

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like a sense of like, that that deception

is probably a thrill, like a high thrill.

228

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Yeah.

229

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Like thrill is like a thrill

there to, to it as well.

230

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Um, but, but for sure, um, they will,

they will manipulate everyone around them.

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Um, mo when you see, uh, so he's kind of

like a really interesting case because

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this is like one of the o one of the

only cases, one of the bigger cases

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where he's manipulating so many people,

um, uh, on a smaller scale with like a

234

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lot of the work that I do, um, kind of

with, I don't wanna sound blase, but

235

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kind of like your average perpetrator,

because I think he is pl, you know,

236

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he's a very Dan, like, there's a very

dangerous, very, um, almost like unique

237

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in some of the things that he was doing.

238

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Um, but if you scale that down, what,

um, what perpetrators will do is they'll

239

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obviously groom their partner, um, before

they get into the relationship, which

240

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I, he, he did classically by the book

and we call that the entrapment process.

241

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So, um, the first is called

conditioning or the grooming stage.

242

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So that's where you'll see that kind

of white night savior love bombing.

243

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So gifts and, uh, making

them feel really good.

244

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Often at this stage they'll mirror,

so what you are interested in,

245

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they're also really interested in,

and that's a tactic that he used.

246

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When I was listening to some of

the other, that that's a tactic

247

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that he used with people generally.

248

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Um, but he used that

249

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Dr. G:

250

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with me when I, when I first met him,

I said, this is what I'm interested in.

251

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And immediately that was what

he was interested in, you know?

252

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Yeah.

253

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And that's how like, you know, we

started our partnership was because,

254

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you know, this, this was my idea.

255

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And he's like, oh yeah,

256

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Maya Badham: that's my idea too.

257

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And it's so effective, um,

making that bond immediately.

258

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And that's what, um, in the entrapment

process from an intimate partner, um,

259

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perspective is often it's very quick.

260

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So everything is sped up.

261

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So there'll be like early

declarations of love.

262

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They move in really quickly.

263

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Um, there'll often be lots of kind of, um,

showering like of gifts, um, decor, um,

264

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like, uh, flowers or, you know, something

that, whatever they need sometimes,

265

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like, oh, you need, um, you know, oh,

you're a little bit low on the rent.

266

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Oh, I'll help top that up.

267

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Or, you know, they, they come in, um, and

they, they kind of, then what you do is

268

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like, where we're bound, like grateful.

269

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So there's like that, um, um, it's

really effective because then if

270

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someone else came and said, oh, do

you know that person isn't very nice?

271

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You are like, well, they're nice to me.

272

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Like they're really nice to me.

273

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They're a really good person.

274

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So you are the one that's not

nice because you are talking

275

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about this person negatively.

276

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And so that's that isolation

beginning too, because you're then not

277

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trusting anyone outside that sphere

of reality that they're building.

278

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Um, which then leads into stage two, which

is around normalization and dependency.

279

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So this stage, they'll start,

um, drawing the, the person

280

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even more into their reality.

281

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So they'll create a reality.

282

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The expectations around that person

moving only within that reality.

283

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Any steps out may mean there

are consequences, whether that's

284

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physical abuse or something else.

285

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But, um, that, that they're teaching

that person the line to walk basically.

286

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Um.

287

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So you'll see like control

increase in this stage.

288

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You'll see threats start to, to

come in the stage and you may

289

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even have like an early violent

episode in this stage as well.

290

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Um, and then the third stage

is, is like full entrapment.

291

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So by this stage, often the person is

economically tied to the perpetrator.

292

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Um, there's definitely more like

rigid rules, the consequences for

293

00:18:58,456 --> 00:19:03,886

breaking those rules, um, they're

emotionally dependent on this person.

294

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Um, I think, you know, one of his

tactics as well, um, other guests has

295

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talked about is, you know, um, the use

of drugs and alcohol, which for some

296

00:19:12,946 --> 00:19:17,806

perpetrators again, is a very effective

tactic because if you are, say the

297

00:19:17,806 --> 00:19:22,576

supplier and you've, you've isolated

that person so they can't drive.

298

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'cause I know, you know, one of the

victim survivors, I dunno, uh, about

299

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names, but, you know, uh, one of the

victim survivors talked about, you

300

00:19:29,566 --> 00:19:33,436

know, not having access to a car,

um, not living near a, but you know.

301

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Geographically isolated.

302

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Um, then if you get someone addicted

or, um, you know, um, dependent

303

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on drugs or alcohol, and they're

the only person able to supply you

304

00:19:44,251 --> 00:19:48,751

with that, there's that additional

layer of dependency on that person.

305

00:19:48,751 --> 00:19:52,921

And really there's a lot of sometimes

blame that goes along with that.

306

00:19:52,921 --> 00:19:56,401

So, um, you know, there's a

lot of stigma around those who

307

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struggle with drug and alcohol use.

308

00:19:58,891 --> 00:20:03,421

Um, but ultimately sometimes for victim

survivors, that's like a lifeline, that

309

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that is the only thing they feel like

keeping them alive, really, because

310

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their environment that that person has

created is so bad that that is their only

311

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means of escape is in the substances.

312

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Um, and therefore the blame for that

should lay squarely at the feet of

313

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the perpetrator that has created that

environment, um, for that person.

314

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And quite often that that's exacerbated

by humiliation and degradation.

315

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So calling people names, you know, um,

taking away their self-esteem, making

316

00:20:39,241 --> 00:20:43,861

them feel like they would be nothing

without them, um, guilting them.

317

00:20:43,861 --> 00:20:48,361

So look what I've given you, um, like

even around like, you know, debt debting.

318

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So, you know, um, oh, I spent this

much on, originally what was a gift now

319

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is kind of like you owe me for that.

320

00:20:56,041 --> 00:21:00,781

Um, in some way, shape or form, whether

that's an unpaid labor or whether that's

321

00:21:01,921 --> 00:21:06,301

maybe sexual favors, uh, you know, sexual

coercion essentially that's what that is.

322

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Um, but they owe them that.

323

00:21:08,971 --> 00:21:12,841

And so that there's this kind

of, um, you know, that's that

324

00:21:12,841 --> 00:21:14,821

emotional dependency as well.

325

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So I think the most important thing

with domestic abuse and coercive control

326

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is absolutely anyone can be a, become

a victim, survivor of perpetrator.

327

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So lots of us like to think, you know,

walk around thinking that'll never be us.

328

00:21:32,251 --> 00:21:36,001

Um, you know, I'm not stupid

enough to fall for them.

329

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We are all one arms throw

away from a perpetrator.

330

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We all know a perpetrator, we've

all interacted with a perpetrator.

331

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We've all been taken in by a perpetrator.

332

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Um, it's luck of the draw, whether that

person, um, you know, continues on that

333

00:21:51,541 --> 00:21:54,331

kind of path with the, with, with you.

334

00:21:54,601 --> 00:21:57,511

But we all have vulnerabilities

that can be exploited.

335

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If you have, if you love your job, if you

have a child, if you have an animal, um,

336

00:22:02,491 --> 00:22:07,981

if you have any form of like normal level

empathy at all, they will exploit it if

337

00:22:07,981 --> 00:22:10,381

they choose you to be a their victim.

338

00:22:10,501 --> 00:22:15,601

So that's why that victim blaming it

really needs to kind of stop in terms of

339

00:22:15,841 --> 00:22:18,241

there's an us and there's the victims.

340

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It can literally be

anyone, um, anyone of us.

341

00:22:21,571 --> 00:22:24,301

And in his case, it was a

hell of a lot of people.

342

00:22:25,741 --> 00:22:26,191

So,

343

00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:26,557

Dr. G:

344

00:22:26,557 --> 00:22:26,846

yeah.

345

00:22:26,851 --> 00:22:27,331

Yeah.

346

00:22:27,331 --> 00:22:28,591

He was able to, yeah.

347

00:22:28,591 --> 00:22:32,191

Manipulate people and, and he did

it, you know, he picked something

348

00:22:32,191 --> 00:22:36,691

easy, which is the animals, because,

you know, every, most people love

349

00:22:36,691 --> 00:22:40,231

animals, and the people that love

animals really care deeply about them.

350

00:22:40,261 --> 00:22:44,461

So he was able to take advantage

of the emotions that people have.

351

00:22:44,701 --> 00:22:44,911

Yeah.

352

00:22:44,946 --> 00:22:46,621

Uh, and utilize that.

353

00:22:47,311 --> 00:22:47,551

Maya Badham: Yeah.

354

00:22:47,551 --> 00:22:53,311

And a lot of people that are like,

you know, like people like us who are

355

00:22:53,311 --> 00:22:54,961

like above, there's animal lovers.

356

00:22:54,961 --> 00:22:59,101

And then there's like some of us, which

are, which are like, uh, you know, very,

357

00:22:59,101 --> 00:23:01,201

very deeply into kind of animal welfare.

358

00:23:01,561 --> 00:23:04,981

A lot of us have previous

experience, negative experiences

359

00:23:04,981 --> 00:23:07,411

with people and or our own trauma.

360

00:23:07,471 --> 00:23:12,931

Therefore, we gravitate towards animals,

especially animals in need because of the

361

00:23:12,931 --> 00:23:16,411

fact that animals give unconditional love.

362

00:23:16,531 --> 00:23:18,841

They're like truly

innocent in lots of ways.

363

00:23:19,201 --> 00:23:20,731

And so, um.

364

00:23:22,531 --> 00:23:28,321

Again, the animal welfare world is,

is kind of full of people that are,

365

00:23:29,371 --> 00:23:34,831

that have vulnerabilities, that have

previous histories of trauma that they

366

00:23:34,831 --> 00:23:40,621

will then exploit and they're quite

adept at targeting, uh, knowing like

367

00:23:40,621 --> 00:23:42,571

they will deliberately pick someone.

368

00:23:42,781 --> 00:23:46,741

So lots of victim survivors have

internalized shame and guilt.

369

00:23:47,491 --> 00:23:50,401

They, they really feel like they

deserved, they've done something to

370

00:23:50,401 --> 00:23:52,891

des and they, they're being told that

by the perpetrator a lot of the time.

371

00:23:52,891 --> 00:23:55,651

Like, if you didn't do this,

I wouldn't need to do this.

372

00:23:55,651 --> 00:23:57,871

You know, they, they're, they're

always warping it to that.

373

00:23:58,081 --> 00:24:02,161

Um, and even once the victim

survivor leaves that stay, you

374

00:24:02,161 --> 00:24:06,751

know, that psychological abuse is

what stays with people the most

375

00:24:07,081 --> 00:24:10,231

and takes the most work to undo.

376

00:24:10,501 --> 00:24:13,921

And some people it never

really truly goes away.

377

00:24:14,521 --> 00:24:20,311

Um, which is one of the hardest impacts,

I think, is that, that they're kind of.

378

00:24:21,166 --> 00:24:26,506

Self worth and self-belief is always have

this, uh, person in the back of their

379

00:24:26,506 --> 00:24:29,206

head saying, you know, you are worthless.

380

00:24:29,506 --> 00:24:30,706

No one likes you.

381

00:24:31,096 --> 00:24:34,816

Um, you know, all these kind of

things and, and that, that really can

382

00:24:35,446 --> 00:24:39,766

stick with people for life, really,

which is, it's such a shame, um,

383

00:24:39,766 --> 00:24:41,866

because none of that is their fault.

384

00:24:42,286 --> 00:24:45,886

And so I spent a lot of time where,

when I worked frontline with survivors,

385

00:24:45,886 --> 00:24:49,876

you know, telling them that they're not

to blame nothing they did, they didn't

386

00:24:49,876 --> 00:24:55,246

deserve it because they will target

people who, you know, one of the, um,

387

00:24:55,276 --> 00:24:58,966

victim survivors that, um, I listened

to that you'd interviewed, she talked

388

00:24:58,966 --> 00:25:01,416

about, she said, I'm not perfect a lot.

389

00:25:01,416 --> 00:25:03,876

And, um, that doesn't matter.

390

00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:07,926

It doesn't matter what

kind of person you are.

391

00:25:07,986 --> 00:25:13,536

You do not deserve, no one deserves

to be treated how he treated people.

392

00:25:14,106 --> 00:25:21,456

So, um, that's one of the saddest, um,

the saddest parts about it's then victim

393

00:25:21,456 --> 00:25:25,386

survivors are not only internalized

that, but society victim blamed.

394

00:25:25,446 --> 00:25:30,846

So society says, whilst you must have done

something, because we have this, uh, this,

395

00:25:30,846 --> 00:25:32,676

this theory is called just world theory.

396

00:25:33,006 --> 00:25:36,546

And basically what that is, is,

um, in order to function as human

397

00:25:36,546 --> 00:25:39,846

beings, sometimes we like to think

good things happen to good people.

398

00:25:40,056 --> 00:25:41,826

Bad things happen to bad people.

399

00:25:42,006 --> 00:25:45,786

So if something bad happened

to you, so you must have done

400

00:25:45,786 --> 00:25:48,066

something to deserve that.

401

00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:50,466

And so perpetrators feed off of that.

402

00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:55,446

They love that society thinks that

because it just feeds into their

403

00:25:55,446 --> 00:25:58,206

world and their warped reality.

404

00:25:58,566 --> 00:26:03,036

Um, so, so yeah, I think, oh, you

know, the question you asked me was

405

00:26:03,036 --> 00:26:06,276

around that kind of manipulation

and I think he was just extreme.

406

00:26:06,306 --> 00:26:12,276

He was extremely skilled gaslighter

manipulator, mask wearer.

407

00:26:12,861 --> 00:26:18,501

Um, you know, potential

sociopath, psychopath in

408

00:26:18,501 --> 00:26:20,001

terms of his nature, I think.

409

00:26:20,361 --> 00:26:23,181

And they, they're just very,

very good at reading people,

410

00:26:23,181 --> 00:26:24,531

which is exactly what you said.

411

00:26:25,671 --> 00:26:25,672

Dr. G:

412

00:26:25,672 --> 00:26:30,051

I think, I think that one of the

interesting things with him and his

413

00:26:30,051 --> 00:26:33,891

partners is that he didn't keep a partner.

414

00:26:33,951 --> 00:26:36,741

Like he kept rotating through partners.

415

00:26:36,741 --> 00:26:37,071

Right.

416

00:26:37,071 --> 00:26:42,951

And we think about these domestic violence

perpetrators, how they're so manipulative

417

00:26:43,011 --> 00:26:45,471

that they don't want that person to leave.

418

00:26:45,771 --> 00:26:49,011

So they will use the animals, they will

use the kids, they will use whatever

419

00:26:49,011 --> 00:26:50,901

reason to keep him from leaving.

420

00:26:51,261 --> 00:26:54,621

But he was literally tearing

these people down mm-hmm.

421

00:26:55,161 --> 00:26:56,691

And then getting rid of them.

422

00:26:57,316 --> 00:26:57,736

Mm-hmm.

423

00:26:57,816 --> 00:27:00,891

Like, you know, like you're no,

you're no used to me anymore.

424

00:27:01,131 --> 00:27:01,581

Next.

425

00:27:01,586 --> 00:27:01,816

Yeah.

426

00:27:02,901 --> 00:27:05,361

Maya Badham: But I think part of

that, do you know, I think, I can't

427

00:27:05,361 --> 00:27:08,571

remember if I said it just now, or I

said it before we started recording.

428

00:27:08,571 --> 00:27:09,801

I think that part.

429

00:27:11,841 --> 00:27:13,041

Is like that.

430

00:27:13,071 --> 00:27:18,171

Yes, he's a, he's a da perpetrator and

potentially like psychopathic sociopathic

431

00:27:18,381 --> 00:27:23,121

because with a lot of perpetrators,

they, um, are triggered by separation.

432

00:27:23,391 --> 00:27:30,021

So separation is the most high risk time

for domestic homicides, uh, to occur.

433

00:27:31,041 --> 00:27:35,721

For him, he just seemed to be like,

well, onto the next, you know, he

434

00:27:35,721 --> 00:27:41,001

really, really, and so that not caring

at all, I think fits more into that

435

00:27:41,571 --> 00:27:44,571

profile of psychopath, sociopath.

436

00:27:44,931 --> 00:27:47,211

Um, and also I think arrogance.

437

00:27:47,211 --> 00:27:49,311

I think he didn't have

trouble meeting women.

438

00:27:49,311 --> 00:27:56,041

I think, you know, he, he, um, he he

puts himself out as an attractive person.

439

00:27:56,251 --> 00:28:03,211

So he is quite easily able to

use that, um, um, to his favor.

440

00:28:03,211 --> 00:28:05,911

I'll never forget the first

per perpetrator I ever met.

441

00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:10,756

He reminds me a little bit of, of

this person, as in I formally met, um,

442

00:28:10,816 --> 00:28:13,636

in my work, it was at family court.

443

00:28:14,176 --> 00:28:17,536

And 'cause normally obviously I don't

see the perpetrators at all because

444

00:28:17,536 --> 00:28:21,076

I work with the survivors, but this

was in family court setting and, um,

445

00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:26,206

a lots of people have in their minds

like what a perpetrator looks like.

446

00:28:26,416 --> 00:28:32,746

So a perpetrator is someone with

unkept hair and, you know, dirty

447

00:28:32,746 --> 00:28:38,866

teeth in a, a trench coat and they,

um, you know, they skulk around in

448

00:28:38,866 --> 00:28:39,886

the dark and they're like, dah, dah.

449

00:28:39,886 --> 00:28:45,466

And um, you know, this perpetrator

that I met was dressed in a perfectly

450

00:28:45,466 --> 00:28:55,276

fitted suit, young, very attractive

looking man, um, just exuded

451

00:28:55,516 --> 00:28:58,516

charm, like without even speaking.

452

00:28:59,206 --> 00:29:02,416

And so that was my first

true understanding.

453

00:29:02,416 --> 00:29:03,226

'cause obviously I'd done my.

454

00:29:03,631 --> 00:29:06,901

Uh, training and I knew, oh,

perpetrators can be like that.

455

00:29:07,261 --> 00:29:11,281

But when you see them in real life

act like that, look like that,

456

00:29:11,551 --> 00:29:15,001

you really start to understand

that perpetrators can be anyone.

457

00:29:15,721 --> 00:29:21,061

They can be teachers and doctors

and police officers, and literally

458

00:29:21,061 --> 00:29:25,381

your your next door neighbor, your,

uh, your brother, you know, they,

459

00:29:25,441 --> 00:29:28,441

they can be anyone, an anyone.

460

00:29:28,471 --> 00:29:33,361

And once you start to understand that

that's that first kind of peeling

461

00:29:33,361 --> 00:29:37,921

back of the victim blaming, because

then you're not able to pinpoint that.

462

00:29:38,221 --> 00:29:39,601

'cause they'll use that as a cover.

463

00:29:39,601 --> 00:29:43,771

Like, oh, he can't be, he can't be, you

know, you see it all the time of like,

464

00:29:43,921 --> 00:29:49,381

um, child sex abusers who are like, I

don't know, head teachers and they do all

465

00:29:49,381 --> 00:29:52,741

this really great work and they volunteer

and they do sports day and all of this.

466

00:29:53,101 --> 00:29:56,521

Um, and then what happens is, you

know, one person is brave enough to

467

00:29:56,521 --> 00:29:59,041

disclose and they're not believed.

468

00:30:00,121 --> 00:30:02,341

Because they're like, how can

that person, that person is?

469

00:30:02,581 --> 00:30:03,691

No, don't say that.

470

00:30:03,691 --> 00:30:07,411

You know, and you see that in families

too, that, you know, if you are, if we

471

00:30:07,411 --> 00:30:13,771

believe this person, then that, then

that shatters that family and victim

472

00:30:13,771 --> 00:30:17,281

survivors that weighs heavy on them

to, you know, that, that, that the, the

473

00:30:17,281 --> 00:30:22,231

courage it takes to, to, to tell someone

that what's happened shouldn't really

474

00:30:22,231 --> 00:30:29,161

be underestimated because it's, it's an

immense bravery brave act to do that.

475

00:30:29,191 --> 00:30:34,801

Especially against someone who is

powerful, who has friends in high places,

476

00:30:35,071 --> 00:30:37,231

who presents how they do like he did.

477

00:30:37,771 --> 00:30:44,131

Um, you know, I think that we should

thank the people that have come forward

478

00:30:44,131 --> 00:30:49,591

and spoken, um, and, and, and give them

the respect that they deserve really.

479

00:30:51,571 --> 00:30:51,572

Dr. G:

480

00:30:51,572 --> 00:30:54,811

Some of the, some of the damage

that he caused, you know, two of

481

00:30:54,811 --> 00:30:57,931

his ex-partners ended up dead.

482

00:30:58,441 --> 00:30:58,561

Mm-hmm.

483

00:30:58,801 --> 00:31:05,491

And he didn't really have a direct hand

on it, but he's still responsible for it.

484

00:31:05,491 --> 00:31:05,791

Right.

485

00:31:05,791 --> 00:31:09,361

Like, how do you explain that,

you know, from, from A to B?

486

00:31:10,261 --> 00:31:10,621

Maya Badham: Yeah.

487

00:31:10,621 --> 00:31:15,721

So, um, if you look at the domestic,

so, so we would call, I would

488

00:31:15,721 --> 00:31:18,991

call those two as fitting within

domestic abuse related deaths.

489

00:31:18,991 --> 00:31:22,351

So that's where, um, you know,

either there's a direct homicide

490

00:31:22,711 --> 00:31:26,431

or there's, there's, uh,

domestic abuse related suicide.

491

00:31:26,731 --> 00:31:31,681

Or there's like, um, like the sec, sorry,

I can't remember her name, but the, the

492

00:31:31,681 --> 00:31:37,261

second one that passed away that, um, I

think from drug addiction or drug use.

493

00:31:37,291 --> 00:31:38,431

Yeah, that was Amanda.

494

00:31:38,731 --> 00:31:39,121

Yeah.

495

00:31:39,121 --> 00:31:40,411

That was directly linked to him.

496

00:31:40,411 --> 00:31:43,891

So that wouldn't necessarily fit

into homicide or suicide related,

497

00:31:43,891 --> 00:31:45,361

but he created that environment.

498

00:31:45,361 --> 00:31:46,861

So, um.

499

00:31:48,406 --> 00:31:49,576

I think there's two things.

500

00:31:49,576 --> 00:31:54,736

One is the environment in which

the perpetrator creates, um,

501

00:31:55,936 --> 00:31:59,236

often makes victim survivors

feel like there's no other way

502

00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:01,216

out, and that they can't be free.

503

00:32:01,216 --> 00:32:04,156

And there is that person sitting

on their head all the time.

504

00:32:04,336 --> 00:32:07,786

And I think this is the other thing that

we need to go heads out of is, um, if it,

505

00:32:07,786 --> 00:32:13,276

if their death didn't occur immediately,

um, afterwards or during the course of

506

00:32:13,276 --> 00:32:17,446

the relationship that is not linked to

that person because that trauma is with

507

00:32:17,446 --> 00:32:20,296

that person for forever, essentially.

508

00:32:20,566 --> 00:32:23,236

So, you know, you can have,

um, um, a, a domestic abuse

509

00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:24,436

related suicide 10 years on.

510

00:32:26,086 --> 00:32:30,226

Maybe they've not even spoken, but

the impact of that relationship has,

511

00:32:30,286 --> 00:32:34,456

has haunted basically that person

to which they to, to again, where

512

00:32:34,456 --> 00:32:38,146

they feel like there's no way out

but to, but to take their own lives.

513

00:32:38,746 --> 00:32:42,406

Um, and so I think he absolutely

is culpable, whether that, you

514

00:32:42,406 --> 00:32:44,746

know, I'm talking in a moral sense.

515

00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:48,796

Um, 'cause I, you know, from a legal

sense, I, I can't say over here we

516

00:32:48,796 --> 00:32:52,546

have, we've kind of had a shift in that,

in terms we're trying to shift that.

517

00:32:52,546 --> 00:32:56,926

So if the, if someone does end their

own life as a res direct result of

518

00:32:56,926 --> 00:33:00,736

domestic abuse, um, that that person

is held accountable through like

519

00:33:00,736 --> 00:33:06,256

manslaughter or, you know, some other,

um, kind of, kind of charge, uh,

520

00:33:06,256 --> 00:33:07,576

we're still kind of working on that.

521

00:33:07,576 --> 00:33:09,706

But I dunno what it's like in the States.

522

00:33:09,706 --> 00:33:13,456

So for now, let's just keep it within a

moral, but like within a moral setting, I

523

00:33:13,456 --> 00:33:18,646

think, you know, there is that direct link

well, that, that person wouldn't be, uh.

524

00:33:19,666 --> 00:33:22,186

That situation if they

had not ever met him.

525

00:33:22,726 --> 00:33:27,796

So you, that is like, um, a

direct causal link I think between

526

00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:33,346

unfortunately what happened, um, you

know, with them losing their lives

527

00:33:33,346 --> 00:33:37,846

and with him, even if he wasn't

physically the one who took their life.

528

00:33:40,006 --> 00:33:40,007

Dr. G:

529

00:33:40,007 --> 00:33:43,876

One of the other things that, you

know, as we're talking about how

530

00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:48,286

they have this control even after the

relationship has ended, you know, I

531

00:33:48,286 --> 00:33:53,326

know that that Litsa is really hurt

about the fact that his girlfriend

532

00:33:53,326 --> 00:33:57,796

at the time did not come forward and

talk about what had happened to Remy.

533

00:33:58,126 --> 00:34:03,436

And you know, it took her a really

long time to actually say, you

534

00:34:03,436 --> 00:34:05,326

know, kind of what, what happened.

535

00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:11,056

And that is part of that control

still, even after, I mean, he's

536

00:34:11,056 --> 00:34:14,446

in prison now and I feel like he

still has that control over people.

537

00:34:15,346 --> 00:34:15,766

Maya Badham: Yeah.

538

00:34:15,886 --> 00:34:16,275

Yeah.

539

00:34:16,335 --> 00:34:21,646

That's, that's completely normal

as in normal for, um, perpetrators

540

00:34:21,650 --> 00:34:25,126

to, to exhibit or for, for them

to still continue to have that

541

00:34:25,126 --> 00:34:27,496

control over the victim's survivor.

542

00:34:27,496 --> 00:34:32,176

And I think, I think it comes down to

like tr the trauma of domestic and,

543

00:34:32,266 --> 00:34:37,876

and cove control not really being truly

understood and in like a meaningful way.

544

00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:43,606

Uh, uh, these, I mean, uh, she talks

a lot and the victim survivor, she

545

00:34:43,606 --> 00:34:48,315

talks about like her whole reality,

and that's still, she struggles with,

546

00:34:48,466 --> 00:34:54,286

uh, with like the under, you know,

creating her own reality because of

547

00:34:54,556 --> 00:34:56,956

the reality which that he created.

548

00:34:57,346 --> 00:34:59,776

Um, and that's, that's

very common as well.

549

00:34:59,776 --> 00:35:04,666

I mean, I've, I've had survivors

who have come out of relationships,

550

00:35:04,666 --> 00:35:05,986

and it doesn't take long as well.

551

00:35:05,986 --> 00:35:09,346

Like PE people think, oh, you know, oh,

they were only together for two months.

552

00:35:09,346 --> 00:35:11,296

Oh, they were only together

for six months or a year.

553

00:35:11,626 --> 00:35:16,396

Um, really that, that doesn't really

matter because what really matters is

554

00:35:16,396 --> 00:35:18,256

the tightness of the course of control.

555

00:35:18,466 --> 00:35:24,316

So how much control was there that

directly correlates to kind of impact

556

00:35:24,316 --> 00:35:28,396

and, and, and kind of ongoing impact

as well because, uh, the higher

557

00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:30,046

the control, the higher the risk.

558

00:35:30,316 --> 00:35:33,166

And I think he's a

extremely dangerous person.

559

00:35:33,556 --> 00:35:37,336

Um, and when you are living with an

extremely dangerous person, you are

560

00:35:37,666 --> 00:35:41,296

lots of the type your, the victim

survivor's brain switches to survival.

561

00:35:42,046 --> 00:35:46,516

And that doesn't always look neat and

pretty to the outside world, but when

562

00:35:46,516 --> 00:35:51,196

you look at it through a trauma-informed

lens, you can see that, um, there is a

563

00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:53,176

reason why they're acting a certain way.

564

00:35:53,536 --> 00:35:57,226

And I think, um, you know, she, the

victim's survivor you're talking

565

00:35:57,226 --> 00:36:01,006

about, she, she spoke about,

she actually didn't know a lot

566

00:36:01,801 --> 00:36:03,961

actually about what was going on.

567

00:36:03,961 --> 00:36:08,851

So, um, and, and I know she, she feels

herself a lot of, um, guilt around that.

568

00:36:08,911 --> 00:36:11,611

And, um, that's not uncommon either.

569

00:36:11,611 --> 00:36:14,881

I don't think any blame should

be placed on her at all.

570

00:36:15,121 --> 00:36:19,321

Um, um, although I think it's,

it's valid for other people to, to,

571

00:36:19,321 --> 00:36:20,851

to kind of have those questions.

572

00:36:21,361 --> 00:36:26,281

Um, but from like a, a, um, a

victim kind of rights perspective

573

00:36:26,281 --> 00:36:30,451

and from a trauma-informed

lens, it makes complete sense.

574

00:36:30,541 --> 00:36:35,731

Um, that she even talks about, you know,

first of all there's that reality of

575

00:36:35,731 --> 00:36:39,811

just, you know, he's created and that,

you know, he could probably spin it,

576

00:36:39,811 --> 00:36:44,221

that, I mean, even, even yourself, you

talked about he, it's plausible, like

577

00:36:44,461 --> 00:36:46,471

what he was saying seemed plausible.

578

00:36:46,471 --> 00:36:50,251

So, and she talks about coming from

a non-animal background, non welfare

579

00:36:50,251 --> 00:36:53,881

background, you know, so you've

got someone with no experience.

580

00:36:53,881 --> 00:36:58,021

So first of all, he's putting her,

if you look at it from, um, like

581

00:36:58,021 --> 00:37:00,301

a work perspective as an employer.

582

00:37:01,021 --> 00:37:04,321

He's putting her in a risk and a

dangerous situation because she's

583

00:37:04,321 --> 00:37:07,801

got no background, no training, and

he's not even offering any of that.

584

00:37:08,131 --> 00:37:13,981

He's then isolating her, taking away her

finances, so economically abusing her,

585

00:37:14,311 --> 00:37:19,411

and then not least, um, you know, reducing

her self-esteem, which we know from her,

586

00:37:19,531 --> 00:37:24,391

you know, she's talked candidly about

having a previous relationship that, uh,

587

00:37:24,391 --> 00:37:29,131

she called it unhealthy, but likely it,

it would come under coercive control.

588

00:37:29,611 --> 00:37:36,151

And so that put previous partners, al

already kind of laid the groundwork for

589

00:37:36,151 --> 00:37:38,611

Steve to come in and kind of build on it.

590

00:37:38,971 --> 00:37:43,891

Um, and she, she was a, he absolutely

did the entrapment process, uh, with her.

591

00:37:43,981 --> 00:37:49,651

Um, came in as that white savior

came in as, um, you know, helping

592

00:37:49,651 --> 00:37:51,241

live together really quickly.

593

00:37:51,571 --> 00:37:54,961

Um, quickly took control of e

the economics never paid her.

594

00:37:56,161 --> 00:38:01,471

For any work that she did do, made her

live in what sounds like squalor a lot of

595

00:38:01,861 --> 00:38:03,541

the other time that he, she was talking.

596

00:38:03,811 --> 00:38:10,171

So, um, our brains are just, you know,

when we're in that traumatic situation,

597

00:38:10,796 --> 00:38:17,191

it, it can just turn inward in terms

of I can only try and survive this.

598

00:38:17,746 --> 00:38:21,091

And, you know, um, someone on

the other episodes talked about a

599

00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:24,691

previous girlfriend talking about

he threatened her with a gun.

600

00:38:25,141 --> 00:38:28,441

I'm almost certain there'd

be threats to kill spattered

601

00:38:28,441 --> 00:38:30,481

throughout all of the relationships.

602

00:38:30,931 --> 00:38:40,561

Um, and so that fear, that that real,

real deep seated fear every single

603

00:38:40,561 --> 00:38:46,591

minute, um, of the day, really takes

a huge toll on victim survivors.

604

00:38:46,861 --> 00:38:51,106

You know, a lot of the time they'll

also, um, manipulate their, their,

605

00:38:51,421 --> 00:38:52,591

or like disrupt their sleep.

606

00:38:53,476 --> 00:38:55,876

They'll force substances on them.

607

00:38:56,206 --> 00:38:59,296

So they're keeping them depend,

like isolated, dependent.

608

00:38:59,296 --> 00:39:06,256

And so, um, it's a really

tricky thing to look at and say.

609

00:39:06,586 --> 00:39:09,646

It's really, it is really easy to

look from the outside and think,

610

00:39:10,426 --> 00:39:12,916

why, why didn't you do that?

611

00:39:12,976 --> 00:39:14,596

Why did you go along with this?

612

00:39:14,596 --> 00:39:21,946

Why do, but ultimately, um, the, the

real, the reality for I think that,

613

00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:24,406

um, victim survivors is much different.

614

00:39:24,766 --> 00:39:28,426

Um, and really they are, they are,

they are just preoccupied with

615

00:39:29,266 --> 00:39:33,556

trying to keep that person happy

so that they don't turn on them.

616

00:39:33,556 --> 00:39:38,206

I mean, I'm really surprised that that his

history, you know, you said there'd been

617

00:39:38,206 --> 00:39:43,036

no previous, uh, to our knowledge, any

previous police reports around violence

618

00:39:43,096 --> 00:39:46,006

and I mean, there's been these like

anecdotally, you know, people talking

619

00:39:46,006 --> 00:39:49,696

about his previous past, but I think

620

00:39:50,086 --> 00:39:56,956

he is a high risk perpetrator, um, and,

and a real danger to, to, to people, but

621

00:39:56,956 --> 00:39:59,386

women and animals obviously, especially.

622

00:39:59,956 --> 00:40:05,296

Um, and I think also we just don't know,

unless you're in that situation, you

623

00:40:05,296 --> 00:40:09,916

just don't under don't understand or,

or appreciate the, like, um, that the

624

00:40:09,916 --> 00:40:15,436

depth of, of that, um, and the heaviness

that that has, um, on a person and on

625

00:40:15,436 --> 00:40:18,046

their, on their mental health as well.

626

00:40:18,556 --> 00:40:22,096

Um, so yeah, I hope

that that kind of helps.

627

00:40:23,086 --> 00:40:23,087

Dr. G:

628

00:40:23,087 --> 00:40:23,386

Yeah.

629

00:40:23,446 --> 00:40:26,596

Well, and something interesting

that we had discussed previously was

630

00:40:26,596 --> 00:40:30,496

about how people blame victims for

falling into the same pattern, right?

631

00:40:30,496 --> 00:40:33,496

From going from one situation

into the next situation.

632

00:40:33,496 --> 00:40:33,556

Yeah.

633

00:40:33,856 --> 00:40:37,066

And it's not really on the

victim, it's on the perpetrator.

634

00:40:37,066 --> 00:40:37,366

Right.

635

00:40:37,416 --> 00:40:43,716

Maya Badham: So perpetrators

will, they're very skilled at

636

00:40:43,716 --> 00:40:46,176

picking their victim survivors.

637

00:40:46,206 --> 00:40:51,096

So they will pick people that,

um, have sadly the hallmarks

638

00:40:51,306 --> 00:40:52,686

of a previous relationship.

639

00:40:52,686 --> 00:40:58,056

I mean, he knew she was still in that

relationship when she met him, so

640

00:40:58,056 --> 00:41:02,586

he knew that, um, that relationship

wasn't good and that there were things

641

00:41:02,586 --> 00:41:04,296

going wrong and that she wanted out.

642

00:41:04,866 --> 00:41:10,536

So he became the, out like he

became that, um, uh, the out.

643

00:41:10,536 --> 00:41:15,216

And so the other thing is

that domestic abuse is common.

644

00:41:15,636 --> 00:41:19,146

People really think that it's,

oh, it doesn't really happen.

645

00:41:19,146 --> 00:41:24,996

You like globally, it's one in three

women will experience some form of

646

00:41:24,996 --> 00:41:26,946

violence and abuse throughout their life.

647

00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:28,056

Often.

648

00:41:28,146 --> 00:41:32,556

Uh, what we're seeing now is, um,

women are more likely to have multiple.

649

00:41:32,961 --> 00:41:37,191

Acts of violence across their life or,

or abuse over the course of their life.

650

00:41:37,851 --> 00:41:40,191

Um, and there's just

a lot of perpetrators.

651

00:41:40,191 --> 00:41:43,161

I think again, we just

mis, we misunderstand the

652

00:41:43,161 --> 00:41:46,131

sheer scale of the problem.

653

00:41:46,221 --> 00:41:50,931

Um, and so we default to, um, a

bit like we just talked about,

654

00:41:50,931 --> 00:41:54,981

that just worthy through that while

you must have done something, you

655

00:41:54,981 --> 00:41:56,331

know, there's a problem with you.

656

00:41:57,021 --> 00:41:59,601

Rather than look at the history

of this person, what is the common

657

00:41:59,601 --> 00:42:01,731

denominate between all these women?

658

00:42:02,566 --> 00:42:03,681

Is this is him.

659

00:42:04,281 --> 00:42:08,931

Um, so that, that's, that's what

they'll do, that they'll pick people.

660

00:42:09,231 --> 00:42:12,531

And even if they pick someone who

hasn't had a history of domestic

661

00:42:12,531 --> 00:42:16,251

abuse, they might, might have a history

of, uh, struggles with addiction.

662

00:42:16,251 --> 00:42:19,101

They might have a history

of childhood, um, abuse.

663

00:42:19,101 --> 00:42:21,621

They might have a, um, a

history of something else.

664

00:42:21,621 --> 00:42:25,251

But ultimately, like I said just now,

it doesn't have to have, be a history of

665

00:42:25,311 --> 00:42:28,611

anything is we all have vulnerabilities.

666

00:42:28,731 --> 00:42:31,791

They, they look for people that

have something that they love.

667

00:42:32,511 --> 00:42:33,381

And they look.

668

00:42:33,441 --> 00:42:38,211

Um, one of the things I'll do immediately,

like we talked about, is, um, they'll

669

00:42:38,211 --> 00:42:42,531

be very intense often about this, but

they'll, they're mining for information

670

00:42:42,801 --> 00:42:45,951

which makes them look like they're

actually very interested in what you

671

00:42:45,951 --> 00:42:50,601

have to say, which is very attractive

quality, especially for women.

672

00:42:50,631 --> 00:42:53,331

'cause we're not really listened to

that much generally on the whole.

673

00:42:53,631 --> 00:42:56,571

Um, and so it's very unusual.

674

00:42:56,871 --> 00:42:59,901

And so we kind of feel

675

00:43:02,361 --> 00:43:05,391

well they, they create a sense of

safety, a false sense of safety and

676

00:43:05,391 --> 00:43:09,501

security, uh, which will then, they'll

then go on to continually exploit.

677

00:43:09,861 --> 00:43:13,101

Um, but they want to know as

much about you as possible.

678

00:43:13,311 --> 00:43:17,706

So we, we give away information.

679

00:43:17,706 --> 00:43:20,856

And that's not a blame on us because

I mean, like you said, if you have a

680

00:43:20,856 --> 00:43:24,096

child, so one of the first questions

when you're dating is, you know,

681

00:43:24,096 --> 00:43:25,266

oh no, do you have any children?

682

00:43:25,476 --> 00:43:26,466

Oh yeah, I have children.

683

00:43:26,676 --> 00:43:29,766

And they'll even groom the children

in some cases and or the animal.

684

00:43:30,096 --> 00:43:32,676

So, um, they'll like get

the animal to like them.

685

00:43:32,676 --> 00:43:35,196

They'll be really nice to the animal

and those, those who have animals.

686

00:43:35,646 --> 00:43:40,056

So I think also this myth around like,

oh, animals know if they're a bad person.

687

00:43:40,356 --> 00:43:42,396

No, like most of the time, no.

688

00:43:42,726 --> 00:43:46,506

Like lots of bad people have

pets that like, love them.

689

00:43:46,716 --> 00:43:50,316

So, um, yes, I think, I think there is

something to that in some circumstances.

690

00:43:50,316 --> 00:43:54,486

But on the whole, if you are nice to an

animal, they, they're gonna like, they

691

00:43:54,486 --> 00:43:56,526

take you at face value a lot of the time.

692

00:43:56,796 --> 00:43:57,516

So, um.

693

00:43:58,131 --> 00:44:02,091

But people have this myth that, oh, you

know, oh, he was so good with the animal.

694

00:44:02,091 --> 00:44:03,081

The animal liked him.

695

00:44:03,081 --> 00:44:05,121

And that's also nice for us.

696

00:44:05,151 --> 00:44:08,241

'cause we feel like, oh, they

accept, they're accepted and oh,

697

00:44:08,241 --> 00:44:11,211

they, you know, they came and they

were really pleasant to my child.

698

00:44:11,211 --> 00:44:14,901

They maybe brought my child a gift,

you know, so they're grooming everyone.

699

00:44:15,711 --> 00:44:19,311

Um, and we all have something

that can be exploited.

700

00:44:20,721 --> 00:44:20,722

Dr. G:

701

00:44:20,722 --> 00:44:24,261

One of the interesting things too, that

we were talking about is, you know, how

702

00:44:24,261 --> 00:44:29,901

people that grow up to love animals is

because as children, they, and you know,

703

00:44:29,901 --> 00:44:36,411

like in, in, in my experience, my personal

experience, you know, I had dogs and I

704

00:44:36,411 --> 00:44:39,921

would feel more comfortable being with

the dogs, that being with some of the

705

00:44:39,921 --> 00:44:43,761

people, like the dogs were not judgmental,

you know, and, and that kind of stuff.

706

00:44:44,391 --> 00:44:49,791

Um, but he, from anything that I

have seen or heard, and even from

707

00:44:49,791 --> 00:44:53,271

talking to him, I don't think

that he ever grew up with animals.

708

00:44:53,661 --> 00:44:55,011

So that would make it.

709

00:44:55,986 --> 00:44:57,186

Rare, right?

710

00:44:57,186 --> 00:45:04,206

That as a, as an adult, he would all of a

sudden develop this attachment to animals.

711

00:45:05,196 --> 00:45:05,586

Maya Badham: Yeah.

712

00:45:05,586 --> 00:45:08,286

I, I don't think he did have

an at attachment to animals.

713

00:45:08,286 --> 00:45:16,236

I think, um, uh, uh, those who want

to exploit people, exploit animals.

714

00:45:16,236 --> 00:45:17,826

So it's just like a mechanism.

715

00:45:17,826 --> 00:45:23,616

I think for him it was a mechanism, a

mechanism to get to what he actually

716

00:45:23,616 --> 00:45:26,136

wanted, which was money, fame

717

00:45:28,716 --> 00:45:32,466

to inflict pain for probably for

pleasure to, he got out of it.

718

00:45:32,856 --> 00:45:35,346

I, I think that the animals

were literally just a mechanism.

719

00:45:35,346 --> 00:45:40,386

A bit like, um, I watched a documentary,

well, a bit like, you know, the first

720

00:45:40,386 --> 00:45:45,456

thing that comes to mind is like, like

the Tiger King guy and the roadside

721

00:45:45,846 --> 00:45:48,126

road, uh, roadside zoo people.

722

00:45:48,126 --> 00:45:51,156

Um, they think that they like

animals, that they love animals,

723

00:45:51,576 --> 00:45:53,496

but actually it's all exploitation.

724

00:45:53,946 --> 00:45:57,546

Um, for money and obviously, obviously

your note, you know, that animal abuse

725

00:45:57,546 --> 00:46:03,456

links to organized crime, gangs, guns,

sexual violence, domestic, you know,

726

00:46:03,461 --> 00:46:06,366

it, it links to loads of offshoots.

727

00:46:07,056 --> 00:46:13,866

Um, and so animals you think about like,

um, people that do backyard breeding

728

00:46:13,866 --> 00:46:17,916

and puppy farming and all of that,

that's not because they like puppies

729

00:46:18,216 --> 00:46:23,046

and they like, they like money and

they like things to exploit things.

730

00:46:23,046 --> 00:46:28,146

So the animals are just like a mechanism

and, and like I think you said before,

731

00:46:28,596 --> 00:46:35,826

um, there is no better real, really sector

to find people to exploit because, um,

732

00:46:35,826 --> 00:46:39,366

animal people really care so deeply.

733

00:46:39,786 --> 00:46:44,136

Um, and that is a vulnerability and

it is a really good vulnerability.

734

00:46:44,856 --> 00:46:46,296

People should care, you know?

735

00:46:46,296 --> 00:46:46,446

Right.

736

00:46:46,776 --> 00:46:51,756

But you know, like, um, they, it shouldn't

be that we have to, as a society, care

737

00:46:51,756 --> 00:46:54,621

less because someone may exploit it.

738

00:46:54,801 --> 00:46:57,651

It's, um, it's a real shame that they do.

739

00:46:58,191 --> 00:47:01,161

Um, but I don't want people to

think, think, sit there now thinking,

740

00:47:01,221 --> 00:47:04,521

analyzing themselves as, oh my

gosh, of all these vulnerabilities.

741

00:47:04,521 --> 00:47:08,391

Like they are the best part of you.

742

00:47:09,111 --> 00:47:09,501

You know?

743

00:47:09,951 --> 00:47:14,511

And it's not on us when other

people look to undermine that.

744

00:47:14,871 --> 00:47:18,531

Um, there's no blame, blame or

shame should be honest for that.

745

00:47:19,041 --> 00:47:21,471

Um, because they are

very good at, good at it.

746

00:47:21,531 --> 00:47:24,591

But yeah, I think the animals were,

I think he could have stumbled

747

00:47:24,591 --> 00:47:26,121

into a number of different things.

748

00:47:26,991 --> 00:47:30,531

Just so happens he stumbled into animals.

749

00:47:30,951 --> 00:47:36,531

Um, so, so yeah, that's what I think

about kind of why he used animals.

750

00:47:37,341 --> 00:47:37,342

Dr. G:

751

00:47:37,342 --> 00:47:37,581

Yeah.

752

00:47:37,581 --> 00:47:41,151

And from his previous experience,

you know, he talks about when he

753

00:47:41,151 --> 00:47:46,311

was in California before he came to

Ohio, that he ran a homeless shelter.

754

00:47:46,371 --> 00:47:49,976

And then he also was part

of a veterans, uh, type

755

00:47:50,751 --> 00:47:51,291

place.

756

00:47:51,531 --> 00:47:59,121

So, you know, he is looking for that kind

of population that needs help and that

757

00:47:59,121 --> 00:48:04,221

will get the public, you know, worked

up into trying to, trying to help them.

758

00:48:05,031 --> 00:48:05,211

Maya Badham: Yeah.

759

00:48:05,211 --> 00:48:10,701

But his ego is just so dominant because

he, um, you just remind me when I was

760

00:48:10,701 --> 00:48:14,061

listening to that podcast where he was

talking about h helping out the, you know,

761

00:48:14,061 --> 00:48:18,651

he talks about giving the homeless, um,

and how this person a lift in his like

762

00:48:18,651 --> 00:48:21,291

amazing car, in his convertible car, and

763

00:48:21,291 --> 00:48:21,292

Dr. G:

764

00:48:21,292 --> 00:48:23,271

it was like the best ride of his life.

765

00:48:24,427 --> 00:48:26,467

Steffen Baldwin: We were a

homeless resource center, not a

766

00:48:26,467 --> 00:48:28,027

shelter, so there was no beds.

767

00:48:28,297 --> 00:48:30,727

If you wanted a bed, you had to

go down to the Salvation Army,

768

00:48:30,727 --> 00:48:31,957

which was like five miles away.

769

00:48:32,332 --> 00:48:35,692

And it was typically reserved for women

and children first, and then men just

770

00:48:35,692 --> 00:48:38,962

kind of got the leftovers, you know,

as, as it should be if you're homeless.

771

00:48:38,962 --> 00:48:39,142

Yeah.

772

00:48:39,172 --> 00:48:40,822

The women and children

need the shelter the most.

773

00:48:41,062 --> 00:48:43,132

So there was a couple of dudes

and they're like, oh man, look,

774

00:48:43,132 --> 00:48:44,422

we never make it there in time.

775

00:48:45,037 --> 00:48:46,717

You know, we're just gonna

go sleep on the streets.

776

00:48:46,747 --> 00:48:50,047

And I had my 65 Dodge Dart and I was

like, you guys wanna ride my car?

777

00:48:50,107 --> 00:48:51,427

And so it was convertibles.

778

00:48:51,427 --> 00:48:52,087

I popped the top.

779

00:48:52,087 --> 00:48:54,787

I had a little power convertible

button to hit the button goes back,

780

00:48:54,787 --> 00:48:55,717

Josh Boyer: they're probably so stoked.

781

00:48:55,957 --> 00:48:56,767

Steffen Baldwin: Oh, they were so stoked.

782

00:48:56,917 --> 00:49:00,007

I wish I, there was like,

this was what, 2003?

783

00:49:00,007 --> 00:49:02,977

So cell phones existed, but no

one was taking pictures with them.

784

00:49:02,977 --> 00:49:03,367

Really.

785

00:49:03,547 --> 00:49:05,047

Like we were still just

calling and texting.

786

00:49:05,047 --> 00:49:06,307

There was no selfie camera.

787

00:49:06,607 --> 00:49:06,608

Dr. G:

788

00:49:06,608 --> 00:49:06,897

Yeah.

789

00:49:06,957 --> 00:49:07,457

It was like,

790

00:49:09,137 --> 00:49:13,122

Maya Badham: you are just your,

it's just, it's just unbelievable.

791

00:49:13,122 --> 00:49:23,562

Like the, the kind of ego that he had

was massive and, um, just, yeah, yeah,

792

00:49:23,772 --> 00:49:26,142

just really warped sense of self.

793

00:49:26,922 --> 00:49:27,372

Complete.

794

00:49:27,372 --> 00:49:27,462

Yeah.

795

00:49:27,522 --> 00:49:27,523

Dr. G:

796

00:49:27,523 --> 00:49:32,532

Well, and that's why when he was, uh, the,

the director at the Union County Humane

797

00:49:32,532 --> 00:49:36,432

Society, which was the first job that he

got, by lying to them and saying that he

798

00:49:36,432 --> 00:49:41,292

had all this experience, which he really

didn't have, but he even talks on, on the

799

00:49:41,292 --> 00:49:43,422

one podcast about how that wasn't enough.

800

00:49:43,452 --> 00:49:45,642

You know, he was doing this

for the dogs, this was doing

801

00:49:45,642 --> 00:49:47,352

that, and it just wasn't enough.

802

00:49:47,922 --> 00:49:48,012

Mm-hmm.

803

00:49:48,012 --> 00:49:50,562

And then he started doing the

humane agent and rescuing dogs,

804

00:49:50,562 --> 00:49:54,852

and then that gave him that high,

but he couldn't do what he wanted.

805

00:49:54,852 --> 00:50:00,252

And I think primarily as part of the

Humane Society, you know it, when, when

806

00:50:00,252 --> 00:50:06,672

you're part of a, of a group and you do

something, the group did something and

807

00:50:06,732 --> 00:50:09,312

that doesn't reflect directly on just him.

808

00:50:09,672 --> 00:50:14,502

So he left to create his own

group so that it can be, you

809

00:50:14,502 --> 00:50:16,692

know, like the, the one man show.

810

00:50:16,692 --> 00:50:18,462

And then he's actually.

811

00:50:18,972 --> 00:50:22,812

Saving these animals, he's actually

protecting things and he can

812

00:50:22,812 --> 00:50:25,212

start drawing money for himself.

813

00:50:25,217 --> 00:50:25,227

Yeah.

814

00:50:25,542 --> 00:50:25,662

Yeah.

815

00:50:25,692 --> 00:50:30,852

Um, and one of the things that you

said earlier on was about how these

816

00:50:30,852 --> 00:50:33,942

personalities look for positions of power.

817

00:50:34,272 --> 00:50:38,532

And by becoming a humane agent, he,

he even said, which is not true,

818

00:50:38,532 --> 00:50:42,642

that he had full police powers

and he had a gun that was part of

819

00:50:42,642 --> 00:50:44,232

his uniform, which is not true.

820

00:50:44,292 --> 00:50:47,952

He was not allowed to carry a gun,

but he had a gun and he had a badge.

821

00:50:48,252 --> 00:50:52,782

And he presented himself as not

only a humane officer for Union

822

00:50:52,782 --> 00:50:57,217

County, but for every county in

Ohio, which is also not a thing.

823

00:50:57,492 --> 00:51:00,882

You have to be a humane

agent for each county.

824

00:51:01,242 --> 00:51:09,372

So it was this ultimate, you know, like

self-made power trip that he got into.

825

00:51:10,032 --> 00:51:10,392

Maya Badham: Yeah.

826

00:51:10,482 --> 00:51:13,902

That does not surprise me in the least.

827

00:51:14,382 --> 00:51:16,632

Um, yeah, absolutely.

828

00:51:16,632 --> 00:51:18,012

They will seek, seek.

829

00:51:18,387 --> 00:51:22,617

Uh, positions where they, they

can have more power, more control.

830

00:51:22,617 --> 00:51:27,057

And I think, you know, the, the officer

even said that, um, it became clear

831

00:51:27,057 --> 00:51:28,707

that it was like a one man show.

832

00:51:28,887 --> 00:51:33,057

Um, and probably because he didn't

wanna share, because I don't

833

00:51:33,057 --> 00:51:35,847

think he's capable of like, even

understanding the word share.

834

00:51:36,537 --> 00:51:41,727

Um, but, you know, um, that makes,

that fits with him completely, I think.

835

00:51:42,447 --> 00:51:42,448

Dr. G:

836

00:51:42,448 --> 00:51:45,027

Yeah, that was one of the, that was one

of the things, and actually it was one

837

00:51:45,027 --> 00:51:50,817

of the charges that he had as far as

theft and corruption because he, his

838

00:51:50,817 --> 00:51:53,577

nonprofit was partners with our nonprofit.

839

00:51:53,607 --> 00:51:56,367

However, he raised the money

and he was supposed to split

840

00:51:56,367 --> 00:51:57,687

the money and he never did.

841

00:51:57,777 --> 00:52:01,917

He would keep it all, and then he was

keeping the money for his nonprofit.

842

00:52:02,307 --> 00:52:06,957

But not even using it for the animals,

he was using it for himself, you know?

843

00:52:06,957 --> 00:52:07,017

Yeah.

844

00:52:07,017 --> 00:52:08,667

He's like buying himself things.

845

00:52:08,667 --> 00:52:11,757

He was paying for his rent, he

was paying for his child support

846

00:52:11,757 --> 00:52:13,887

out of the, out of the nonprofit.

847

00:52:14,097 --> 00:52:15,597

Maya Badham: And he

bought guns with it too.

848

00:52:16,107 --> 00:52:17,097

Yeah, yeah,

849

00:52:17,367 --> 00:52:17,368

Dr. G:

850

00:52:17,368 --> 00:52:17,787

yeah.

851

00:52:17,817 --> 00:52:21,417

So, you know, it's like, yeah,

I what you're saying as far

852

00:52:21,417 --> 00:52:22,497

as he doesn't wanna share.

853

00:52:22,497 --> 00:52:24,447

Yeah, he definitely didn't wanna share.

854

00:52:24,807 --> 00:52:25,197

Yeah,

855

00:52:25,377 --> 00:52:25,737

Maya Badham: yeah.

856

00:52:25,947 --> 00:52:26,307

Yeah.

857

00:52:26,667 --> 00:52:28,767

It's classic, unfortunately.

858

00:52:29,457 --> 00:52:33,837

I mean, kind of fortunately, because

it meant that no one else was involved

859

00:52:33,987 --> 00:52:39,657

in that perpetration, which, 'cause the

other thing, and, and I'm not saying

860

00:52:39,657 --> 00:52:43,407

that this happened with, uh, with,

with his victim survivors, but one of

861

00:52:43,407 --> 00:52:47,907

the other things that perpetrators,

criminal perpetrators will do is they

862

00:52:47,907 --> 00:52:53,277

will, um, purposely include the victim

survivor in their criminal activity.

863

00:52:54,132 --> 00:52:58,632

To make, make them kind

of, um, as a, a blackmail.

864

00:52:58,632 --> 00:53:01,932

So, you know, if anything happens

to, to me, you are coming down with

865

00:53:01,932 --> 00:53:04,182

me because you are a complicit.

866

00:53:04,512 --> 00:53:10,062

Um, so often, you know, if, if the person

is a, uh, drug dealer, they'll make the,

867

00:53:10,122 --> 00:53:14,472

the victim survivor deal drugs or do the

accounting, you know, they'll be involved.

868

00:53:14,532 --> 00:53:17,262

They'll, they, they'll, um,

force them to be involved in some

869

00:53:17,262 --> 00:53:18,822

way with the criminal activity.

870

00:53:19,062 --> 00:53:21,792

And so I'm, I'm, I'm not saying that

that's what happened with, with him,

871

00:53:21,792 --> 00:53:25,362

but just to say from that wider con

context, that's very common as well.

872

00:53:25,782 --> 00:53:29,832

Um, that they'll coerce them

into doing, um, you know,

873

00:53:29,862 --> 00:53:31,842

different, um, criminal acts.

874

00:53:33,297 --> 00:53:33,298

Dr. G:

875

00:53:33,298 --> 00:53:36,387

Switching gears a little bit

from the humans that he harmed

876

00:53:36,417 --> 00:53:37,947

to the animals that he harmed.

877

00:53:37,947 --> 00:53:38,037

Mm-hmm.

878

00:53:38,277 --> 00:53:38,577

Right.

879

00:53:38,607 --> 00:53:43,107

Uh, um, I am really interested

in the hoarding issue, right.

880

00:53:43,107 --> 00:53:44,727

And hoarding as a mental health disease.

881

00:53:45,027 --> 00:53:48,567

And he fits the personality of an

exploiter hoarder because he kept

882

00:53:48,747 --> 00:53:53,547

accumulating all of these dogs,

but he was literally using them

883

00:53:53,872 --> 00:53:56,427

for, you know, he wasn't doing it

because he cared about the dogs.

884

00:53:56,577 --> 00:53:56,787

Yeah.

885

00:53:56,787 --> 00:53:58,257

He was doing it for his own gain.

886

00:53:58,767 --> 00:53:59,577

Maya Badham: A hundred percent.

887

00:53:59,577 --> 00:54:05,457

I mean, it, it's very clear that he,

he didn't care about animals at all.

888

00:54:06,327 --> 00:54:10,647

Um, I mean, what can we say

in terms of like, the impact

889

00:54:10,647 --> 00:54:11,877

on the animals themselves?

890

00:54:11,877 --> 00:54:14,727

It's just so hard to think,

even think about, isn't it?

891

00:54:14,727 --> 00:54:18,537

You know, not so, you know,

not least because animals

892

00:54:18,537 --> 00:54:20,157

lost their lives as a result.

893

00:54:20,367 --> 00:54:23,667

I mean, I, I've been calling him, so I,

I met with a friend, um, earlier and I

894

00:54:23,667 --> 00:54:27,117

said, I'm doing this, like speaking with

Alba later about this, this guy, because

895

00:54:27,122 --> 00:54:30,627

obviously in the UK he's not, we didn't

really know anything about this case.

896

00:54:30,627 --> 00:54:33,747

So I've had to do a bit of a

deep dive and, um, I called him

897

00:54:33,747 --> 00:54:38,547

a serial killer of dogs because

ultimately he is a serial killer.

898

00:54:38,877 --> 00:54:40,197

Like that is exactly what he does.

899

00:54:40,197 --> 00:54:42,867

He has an mo, he has like a method.

900

00:54:43,257 --> 00:54:46,917

Uh, he has the opportunity, you know,

that is kind of what he, he's doing.

901

00:54:47,397 --> 00:54:51,687

Um, but it fits what you are saying

because I don't think he's killing

902

00:54:52,017 --> 00:54:55,107

because he necessarily enjoys killing.

903

00:54:55,107 --> 00:54:56,067

I can't say for sure.

904

00:54:56,067 --> 00:55:00,207

I think possibly there's like,

there is some element of that, but

905

00:55:00,207 --> 00:55:04,167

he's killing because he kind of,

um, it's linked directly to that

906

00:55:04,167 --> 00:55:06,117

financial as it is linked to red.

907

00:55:06,117 --> 00:55:06,477

It serves.

908

00:55:07,257 --> 00:55:07,647

Yeah.

909

00:55:08,007 --> 00:55:14,027

Um, but I think, you know, the state

that, you know, um, the victim's further

910

00:55:14,067 --> 00:55:18,597

talked about that they were living in,

in terms of neglect that intersection

911

00:55:18,597 --> 00:55:25,347

with neglect and how I think, um,

Litsa also mentioned, and she made

912

00:55:25,347 --> 00:55:27,027

a really good point, you know, that.

913

00:55:27,687 --> 00:55:36,327

Um, if you're even gonna try and help

dogs with behavioral issues, improve the

914

00:55:36,327 --> 00:55:38,967

environment is the first place you start.

915

00:55:39,057 --> 00:55:44,007

And she talked about how, you know, um,

shelters are often not the best place

916

00:55:44,007 --> 00:55:48,537

to see the true dog anyway because

there's fear in all these other things.

917

00:55:48,842 --> 00:55:53,847

But it seems like that was just

replicated in his, his, in his

918

00:55:53,847 --> 00:55:55,677

facility, if you can call it that.

919

00:55:55,917 --> 00:56:01,017

You know, that, um, he was never

gonna be successful or it was

920

00:56:01,017 --> 00:56:05,337

a very slim chance of him being

successful anyway because he created

921

00:56:05,337 --> 00:56:08,007

an environment of such little care.

922

00:56:08,847 --> 00:56:14,907

Um, and I think therefore his culpability

goes beyond only the dogs that died

923

00:56:14,907 --> 00:56:20,157

and to those dogs who were further

traumatized further behaviorally.

924

00:56:20,187 --> 00:56:24,657

Now, you know, behaviorally

have additional issues that may.

925

00:56:25,092 --> 00:56:26,862

May never trust again.

926

00:56:26,892 --> 00:56:31,752

You know, all these additional impacts

on the animal that he's left, like that

927

00:56:31,752 --> 00:56:38,202

legacy, um, of trauma that he's left on,

not just the dogs, um, in that facility,

928

00:56:38,202 --> 00:56:40,422

but the ones that we, you know, we, you

and I talked about the ones that were

929

00:56:40,422 --> 00:56:47,232

placed inappropriately and the like,

widespread ramifications go so much wider

930

00:56:47,832 --> 00:56:53,892

than just, you know, you know, that,

that circle, um, that direct circle in

931

00:56:53,892 --> 00:56:55,452

which he was kind of interacting with.

932

00:56:56,172 --> 00:56:59,922

Um, and then I think, you know,

you talked about him training.

933

00:56:59,922 --> 00:57:03,012

I mean, it's just, so then that's not

necessarily even with it all, but he's

934

00:57:03,012 --> 00:57:05,112

probably spreading misinformation.

935

00:57:05,262 --> 00:57:07,812

So like the, and then you've got

someone out there who thinks what he

936

00:57:07,812 --> 00:57:12,792

taught them was right and it's just

doesn't, it's just, just mind boggling.

937

00:57:12,792 --> 00:57:20,022

The sheer ripple effect that this one

person has had on so many people and

938

00:57:20,022 --> 00:57:25,377

so many animals and will continue to

have for several years as a result,

939

00:57:25,527 --> 00:57:29,457

really, until all of those dogs that he

ever lives he ever touched, pass away.

940

00:57:30,747 --> 00:57:33,897

He, and, and then humans too,

he will remain, there will

941

00:57:33,897 --> 00:57:37,137

be essence of him remaining.

942

00:57:37,137 --> 00:57:42,537

And that's one of the, the biggest things

that annoys me about perpetrators is

943

00:57:42,537 --> 00:57:47,787

that you are never truly rid of them as

long as they're kind of alive and you are

944

00:57:47,787 --> 00:57:52,077

alive, especially if they have children

with you, have children with them.

945

00:57:52,407 --> 00:57:56,337

Or if you have shared custody of an animal

with them that post separation abuse and

946

00:57:56,337 --> 00:58:01,587

essentially, I think this could easily

fit into kind of that, to be honest.

947

00:58:02,247 --> 00:58:02,248

Dr. G:

948

00:58:02,248 --> 00:58:02,637

Yeah.

949

00:58:02,637 --> 00:58:06,747

And you know, one of the things that

he said that is somewhat true is the

950

00:58:06,747 --> 00:58:10,797

fact that, you know, an animal can be

in a, in a shelter situation and act

951

00:58:10,797 --> 00:58:14,937

aggressively or, or have a certain

behavior and then you take him out of

952

00:58:14,937 --> 00:58:17,697

that into a home and then they do better.

953

00:58:18,147 --> 00:58:24,852

So for, for what he did, he was

taking dogs that had no history of

954

00:58:24,852 --> 00:58:29,412

biting, had no history of aggression,

and after living with him, they

955

00:58:29,412 --> 00:58:32,202

bit someone, they had problems.

956

00:58:32,202 --> 00:58:32,532

Right.

957

00:58:32,532 --> 00:58:37,932

So you would think that going into

his home, his sanctuary, like these

958

00:58:37,932 --> 00:58:39,402

animals are going to flourish.

959

00:58:39,762 --> 00:58:44,052

And in the contrary, they

just declined significantly.

960

00:58:44,712 --> 00:58:45,882

Yeah, yeah,

961

00:58:46,422 --> 00:58:46,722

Maya Badham: yeah.

962

00:58:47,772 --> 00:58:50,952

I mean, you, and you would see that

if you replaced the word dog with

963

00:58:50,952 --> 00:58:56,142

child, you know, they have the, the,

the cognitive ability and emotional

964

00:58:56,142 --> 00:58:57,702

capacity of around a toddler.

965

00:58:57,702 --> 00:59:02,292

And I think, you know, you would

see that that's neglect, emotional,

966

00:59:02,832 --> 00:59:09,072

physical, environmental neglect

leads to trauma and then trauma leads

967

00:59:09,072 --> 00:59:11,022

to what you've just talked about.

968

00:59:11,202 --> 00:59:17,172

So, so yeah, I mean it's just,

where's it even start and end with

969

00:59:17,172 --> 00:59:18,887

that, you know, there's so much harm.

970

00:59:20,907 --> 00:59:20,908

Dr. G:

971

00:59:20,908 --> 00:59:22,767

How does it, how does it play?

972

00:59:22,767 --> 00:59:28,917

You know, because he, he even harm,

well, not physically, but monetarily,

973

00:59:28,917 --> 00:59:30,987

he took advantage of a homeless person.

974

00:59:31,197 --> 00:59:34,317

He fundraised for this homeless

person, and then he didn't, he

975

00:59:34,317 --> 00:59:35,547

kept all the money for himself.

976

00:59:35,547 --> 00:59:35,637

Mm-hmm.

977

00:59:36,117 --> 00:59:41,247

And you have to lack empathy completely.

978

00:59:41,247 --> 00:59:41,547

Right.

979

00:59:41,547 --> 00:59:46,617

To be able to do something like that

and come out of it without any issues.

980

00:59:47,307 --> 00:59:47,607

Maya Badham: Yeah.

981

00:59:48,117 --> 00:59:53,487

That's why I think he fits the

psychopath, sociopath potential, you know?

982

00:59:54,627 --> 00:59:58,707

Uh, what's it like criteria,

because, um, I really don't think

983

00:59:59,607 --> 01:00:04,617

he has the capacity to empathize.

984

01:00:04,647 --> 01:00:11,907

I think he's driven purely on exploitation

and what he can get from people,

985

01:00:12,717 --> 01:00:14,067

which is where I think, you know, um.

986

01:00:15,732 --> 01:00:18,012

There are different kind of

like typologies of perpetrator.

987

01:00:18,012 --> 01:00:24,762

And that's why I think he fits this,

like this specific type because um, when

988

01:00:24,762 --> 01:00:30,132

you're looking at kind of a family, you

know, a family perpetrator where it's

989

01:00:30,132 --> 01:00:35,832

kind of contained, um, so yes, they

might still groom, they're like nab

990

01:00:35,892 --> 01:00:37,962

their neighbors and their work, whatever.

991

01:00:38,262 --> 01:00:42,912

But this was like mass scale,

geographic crossing, geo geographic

992

01:00:42,912 --> 01:00:45,132

lines, you know, um, even,

993

01:00:45,162 --> 01:00:45,163

Dr. G:

994

01:00:45,163 --> 01:00:46,722

even other countries he

995

01:00:46,722 --> 01:00:47,382

Maya Badham: had, yeah,

996

01:00:47,442 --> 01:00:47,443

Dr. G:

997

01:00:47,443 --> 01:00:51,972

he took animals from other countries

and, you know, made them think that he

998

01:00:51,972 --> 01:00:53,742

was gonna give these dogs a better life.

999

01:00:53,772 --> 01:00:55,542

And he ended up euthanizing them too.

1000

01:00:56,172 --> 01:00:56,592

Maya Badham: Yeah.

1001

01:00:57,222 --> 01:00:57,612

Yeah.

1002

01:00:57,762 --> 01:01:00,312

Which is why I just think

he, he is, there's like just

1003

01:01:00,312 --> 01:01:01,602

different ingredients for him.

1004

01:01:01,602 --> 01:01:07,362

Like just the massive ego, um,

like the, the, the kind of.

1005

01:01:08,412 --> 01:01:13,092

Um, reach, you know, there's, there's

quite, he had like an unusual reach.

1006

01:01:13,152 --> 01:01:16,182

Um, and I know like the officer talked

about this in the, in the episode, you

1007

01:01:16,182 --> 01:01:20,112

know, where he, he came down and he was

like a bit worried about saying like, oh,

1008

01:01:20,112 --> 01:01:23,772

he's a bit of a star here and we're gonna

have to like, convince them basically to,

1009

01:01:24,162 --> 01:01:29,742

and there's that is, that is just, um,

do you know, I listened to that episode

1010

01:01:29,862 --> 01:01:37,812

and I was like really impressed because,

um, so many police, police officers

1011

01:01:38,022 --> 01:01:41,952

and law enforcement people just don't

understand, you know, it's over here.

1012

01:01:41,952 --> 01:01:47,262

It is a daily battle to get them to

understand, um, kind of coercive control.

1013

01:01:47,262 --> 01:01:47,652

I don't know.

1014

01:01:47,742 --> 01:01:50,772

It wasn't specifically do

coercive control, but from

1015

01:01:50,772 --> 01:01:53,052

like that, um, he had a status.

1016

01:01:54,087 --> 01:01:57,747

Um, that, that is to some

people quite important.

1017

01:01:58,287 --> 01:02:01,917

And, you know, at every stage, you know,

the, the person then, I can't remember

1018

01:02:01,922 --> 01:02:05,637

the, the exact title that he had, but

you know, he approved it and I was just

1019

01:02:05,637 --> 01:02:07,617

like, this is, this is what it should be.

1020

01:02:07,617 --> 01:02:08,097

Like.

1021

01:02:08,097 --> 01:02:12,837

You know, this just went really well,

uh, everyone and kind of did their part.

1022

01:02:13,137 --> 01:02:16,977

But it could easily have not, he

could easily have got away with this.

1023

01:02:16,977 --> 01:02:21,177

I mean, he did get away with it for

a very long time, but if we hadn't

1024

01:02:21,177 --> 01:02:26,637

had as dedicated officers, you, you

didn't have, and I know there was

1025

01:02:26,637 --> 01:02:29,457

issues at the start, you know, where

people weren't taking it seriously.

1026

01:02:29,457 --> 01:02:35,337

And I don't wanna invalidate that,

but, um, it could easier fallen apart.

1027

01:02:35,547 --> 01:02:39,207

And I think even in the first episode,

uh, no, it might have been the second

1028

01:02:39,207 --> 01:02:44,637

episode, you know, where the officer said,

if we had just left this at Remy only,

1029

01:02:45,777 --> 01:02:47,427

he would've probably just walked out.

1030

01:02:47,937 --> 01:02:51,147

It might have got fine or something,

or, you know, and that speaks to

1031

01:02:51,147 --> 01:02:53,127

kind of how we view animal cruelty.

1032

01:02:54,897 --> 01:02:58,482

More broadly is like less

important as kind of, and that's

1033

01:02:58,482 --> 01:03:00,162

why I think, um, it's a shame.

1034

01:03:00,162 --> 01:03:05,712

I think there was a missed opportunity

to make a better link towards him

1035

01:03:05,712 --> 01:03:09,912

and coercive control and I mean,

I've just remembered that over here.

1036

01:03:09,912 --> 01:03:15,192

So there's a campaign over here to

expand the cos of control legislation.

1037

01:03:15,372 --> 01:03:20,442

So in the uk, um, we mainly, um, use cos

of control legislation in the domestic

1038

01:03:20,442 --> 01:03:25,452

abuse legislation for intimate partners

or ex-partners or family members.

1039

01:03:25,752 --> 01:03:30,612

So there's some sort of like

relation aspect, but what they're

1040

01:03:30,612 --> 01:03:34,872

talking about is expanding that

to include like non relations.

1041

01:03:34,932 --> 01:03:35,982

So I do a lot of work.

1042

01:03:36,402 --> 01:03:40,122

I, um, or I've done some work, maybe a

lot is a bit of a stretch, but some work

1043

01:03:40,122 --> 01:03:45,222

with like the, um, national working group

on spiritual and ritual abuse and uh, uh,

1044

01:03:45,252 --> 01:03:49,692

so, so they're talking about like those

who, um, you know, like religious leaders

1045

01:03:49,692 --> 01:03:52,092

that exploit people to give money cults.

1046

01:03:53,187 --> 01:03:59,337

Um, they use coercive control tactics

is exactly the same tactics, but they're

1047

01:03:59,337 --> 01:04:01,797

not covered under the legislation

because they're not an intimate

1048

01:04:01,797 --> 01:04:03,387

partner, ex-partner, or family member.

1049

01:04:03,927 --> 01:04:10,047

So what I see Steven doing, or

Stepan, is he is u he is coercively

1050

01:04:10,047 --> 01:04:13,317

controlling many, many different people.

1051

01:04:13,587 --> 01:04:17,007

So I think it would've been a good,

would've been good if there was like

1052

01:04:17,127 --> 01:04:23,067

some links or more links made like that

because that speaks to his danger level.

1053

01:04:23,907 --> 01:04:26,997

Um, 'cause I think most of the case,

if I'm correct, centered really

1054

01:04:26,997 --> 01:04:31,377

around kind of the fraud and the ex

animal cruelty side of things, right?

1055

01:04:31,377 --> 01:04:31,587

Yeah.

1056

01:04:31,587 --> 01:04:32,457

The theft, the

1057

01:04:32,697 --> 01:04:32,698

Dr. G:

1058

01:04:32,698 --> 01:04:34,932

corruption, and then the

animal cruelty, which,

1059

01:04:35,007 --> 01:04:37,377

Maya Badham: which is super

bad, don't get me wrong.

1060

01:04:37,377 --> 01:04:43,346

But then when you add in like violence,

you know, violence towards people,

1061

01:04:43,677 --> 01:04:49,137

coercive control, um, I think if

he's ever released, which, you know,

1062

01:04:49,137 --> 01:04:51,387

there's a chance that, um, that.

1063

01:04:53,592 --> 01:04:58,122

I mean, I, I, I am worried I

would be worried upon release

1064

01:04:58,152 --> 01:04:59,292

on like what he will do.

1065

01:05:00,522 --> 01:05:03,192

Um, it's highly likely he, if,

if he doesn't do anything to

1066

01:05:03,192 --> 01:05:07,542

anyone involved in kind of what

happened, he will find someone else.

1067

01:05:07,542 --> 01:05:12,012

He will continue, he will be a serial

cos of control perpetrator for, for as

1068

01:05:12,012 --> 01:05:18,282

long as he's has access to people, but

especially to kind of intimate partners.

1069

01:05:18,792 --> 01:05:22,602

Um, and then obviously

his children, um, as well.

1070

01:05:22,932 --> 01:05:27,852

I think, I really hope that if he ever

is released that there's like a really

1071

01:05:27,942 --> 01:05:36,342

robust risk assessment and really robust

kind of post-release monitoring of him.

1072

01:05:37,362 --> 01:05:42,852

'cause I think he's, he could be a

case of like, release and something

1073

01:05:42,942 --> 01:05:44,442

really, really bad goes down.

1074

01:05:45,912 --> 01:05:47,322

I truly, truly believe that.

1075

01:05:48,897 --> 01:05:48,898

Dr. G:

1076

01:05:48,898 --> 01:05:49,407

Yeah.

1077

01:05:49,437 --> 01:05:54,777

And you know, we, one of the reasons why I

interviewed James Renner is because James

1078

01:05:54,777 --> 01:05:59,757

Renner was looking into him because of

this missing person named Maura Murray.

1079

01:06:00,207 --> 01:06:04,617

And, you know, it's, some people

are like, oh, could he do that?

1080

01:06:04,617 --> 01:06:08,187

And to me personally, because of

knowing about the link and knowing about

1081

01:06:08,187 --> 01:06:12,357

the animal cruelty and interpersonal

violence, my first thought was, yeah, I

1082

01:06:12,357 --> 01:06:14,397

can totally see him doing this, right?

1083

01:06:14,402 --> 01:06:14,502

Mm-hmm.

1084

01:06:14,587 --> 01:06:18,957

Like, he, he fits the kind of person

that would disappear somebody.

1085

01:06:19,467 --> 01:06:19,737

Yeah.

1086

01:06:20,607 --> 01:06:21,057

Maya Badham: It's about that.

1087

01:06:21,057 --> 01:06:25,797

There's two missing people, women

as well, so his mom as well.

1088

01:06:25,797 --> 01:06:30,777

And so, I mean, who has

that kind of history, right?

1089

01:06:30,777 --> 01:06:35,277

You know, like two, two

women dead, two missing.

1090

01:06:36,357 --> 01:06:38,607

And I'm not, and, and like we

know, you know, I'm not saying

1091

01:06:38,607 --> 01:06:42,177

he was directly complicit in the,

in the, but, but the think the

1092

01:06:42,177 --> 01:06:44,667

common denominator right, is him.

1093

01:06:45,057 --> 01:06:45,357

Yeah.

1094

01:06:45,357 --> 01:06:45,417

So.

1095

01:06:47,217 --> 01:06:48,207

I I the same as you.

1096

01:06:48,207 --> 01:06:53,337

I really, I think for someone to

be able to kill as many animals

1097

01:06:53,757 --> 01:06:57,807

as he did without any emotion.

1098

01:06:57,807 --> 01:07:00,957

'cause um, so in one of the

episodes, talked about what

1099

01:07:00,957 --> 01:07:02,277

he was like in the courtroom.

1100

01:07:02,667 --> 01:07:07,227

So someone talked about the fact that

he kind of, um, inter I think maybe you

1101

01:07:07,227 --> 01:07:14,487

talked about intimidation and the staring

and the, um, smirking and the smugness.

1102

01:07:14,487 --> 01:07:21,717

And that is just again,

classic perpetration tactics.

1103

01:07:21,897 --> 01:07:27,627

So, um, I mean, I had a case once

where, um, the perpetrator would cough

1104

01:07:28,497 --> 01:07:30,417

and that was a witness intimidation.

1105

01:07:30,417 --> 01:07:34,167

I mean, I, I, I dunno how he didn't

get done for wi on top of everything

1106

01:07:34,167 --> 01:07:38,157

for witness intimidation based on what

was said in, you know, he was doing.

1107

01:07:38,817 --> 01:07:41,697

Um, but I also know in the states

you don't have access to, um.

1108

01:07:43,137 --> 01:07:45,357

Some of the stuff that we have in

the UK in terms of what we call

1109

01:07:45,357 --> 01:07:46,737

special measures in a courtroom.

1110

01:07:47,187 --> 01:07:52,857

So over here, uh, we can have screens so

the victim can't see the perpetrator and

1111

01:07:52,857 --> 01:07:54,237

the perpetrator can't see the victim.

1112

01:07:54,837 --> 01:07:59,096

Or sometimes the victim can give evidence

from outside of the courtroom through

1113

01:07:59,096 --> 01:08:05,217

a video link so that that reduces the

likelihood of them being able to kind

1114

01:08:05,217 --> 01:08:10,377

of witness, intimidate, but also from a

trauma perspective for vi for the victim

1115

01:08:10,377 --> 01:08:14,427

survivors that they feel as comfortable

as possible to give their evidence.

1116

01:08:14,846 --> 01:08:18,807

Um, that's kind of an important

kind of mechanism that we have

1117

01:08:18,807 --> 01:08:20,487

here that I don't think you have.

1118

01:08:20,697 --> 01:08:20,698

Dr. G:

1119

01:08:20,698 --> 01:08:21,747

No, it's not.

1120

01:08:21,747 --> 01:08:26,517

And the, and, you know, going into,

into the courtroom, like the, you

1121

01:08:26,517 --> 01:08:32,517

know, we have video of the, of the

courtroom and we were literally

1122

01:08:32,517 --> 01:08:36,086

sitting testifying right next to him.

1123

01:08:36,792 --> 01:08:42,971

So it's the chair, uh, a small,

you know, like gap in between

1124

01:08:43,002 --> 01:08:47,051

where I was sitting and the defense

table, and he's right there.

1125

01:08:47,051 --> 01:08:47,142

Mm-hmm.

1126

01:08:47,742 --> 01:08:53,051

Um, you know, so it feels like

within reach, it feels very real.

1127

01:08:53,591 --> 01:08:59,381

And he kept in, in my case, and

it probably comes mostly because

1128

01:08:59,381 --> 01:09:03,672

of testifying, like I testify as

an expert witness, so I know how

1129

01:09:03,672 --> 01:09:05,532

to handle myself in, in court.

1130

01:09:05,742 --> 01:09:08,022

So I never made any eye contact with him.

1131

01:09:08,711 --> 01:09:12,462

Um, and I could see him in my

peripheral vision view, um mm-hmm.

1132

01:09:12,469 --> 01:09:15,971

Making faces like moving, like

trying to get my attention.

1133

01:09:15,971 --> 01:09:20,742

His attorney even stood behind him

almost to force me to look at him,

1134

01:09:21,192 --> 01:09:23,442

and I still just kept looking.

1135

01:09:23,772 --> 01:09:27,072

But individuals, especially

individuals that have been under

1136

01:09:27,072 --> 01:09:32,772

his control, are not gonna have

that, that strength to look away.

1137

01:09:33,551 --> 01:09:40,872

From, and from what I see in, in some of

the courtroom testimony is, how do I say?

1138

01:09:40,872 --> 01:09:45,702

Almost like a different person from what,

how I know them outside of the courtroom

1139

01:09:45,702 --> 01:09:50,652

and how they were behaving, the things

that they said outside of the courtroom.

1140

01:09:50,652 --> 01:09:54,912

And then in the courtroom they're just

like, you know, a shell of themselves.

1141

01:09:54,912 --> 01:09:55,632

Like mm-hmm.

1142

01:09:55,872 --> 01:09:58,182

Not, not wanting to say

something because they don't

1143

01:09:58,182 --> 01:09:59,622

know what's gonna happen to them.

1144

01:10:00,252 --> 01:10:00,642

Maya Badham: Yeah.

1145

01:10:00,732 --> 01:10:01,092

Yeah.

1146

01:10:01,182 --> 01:10:05,442

I mean, it's that, um,

underestimation of like the fear.

1147

01:10:06,402 --> 01:10:13,032

So how terrifying it would be for,

for a victim survivor to stand in

1148

01:10:13,032 --> 01:10:16,262

the same room, let alone that close.

1149

01:10:16,952 --> 01:10:22,767

Um, that alone is enough to enough

kind of rattle someone's ability

1150

01:10:22,767 --> 01:10:24,717

to give their best evidence.

1151

01:10:24,927 --> 01:10:28,317

Which is why, in why in the UK we

have things like special measures

1152

01:10:28,317 --> 01:10:31,767

for what we call what, what the

court calls vulnerable or intimidated

1153

01:10:31,977 --> 01:10:36,237

witnesses because, um, what we want

is them to give their best evidence,

1154

01:10:36,447 --> 01:10:38,007

um, to the best of their ability.

1155

01:10:38,007 --> 01:10:42,027

And, and, and that's undermined in,

in our, in the UK opinion or in my

1156

01:10:42,027 --> 01:10:45,927

opinion, that their ability to do

that is significantly undermined

1157

01:10:46,617 --> 01:10:51,237

when you've got, you know, your,

especially when most domestic abuse

1158

01:10:51,387 --> 01:10:57,267

course of control perpetrators will

also be rapists because you can't give

1159

01:10:57,267 --> 01:10:58,977

consent if there's coercive control.

1160

01:10:58,977 --> 01:11:00,897

Because, I mean, in the UK these are laws.

1161

01:11:00,897 --> 01:11:02,967

There's, in order for there to

be consent, you have to have

1162

01:11:02,967 --> 01:11:04,497

freedom, choice, and capacity.

1163

01:11:05,067 --> 01:11:08,697

And if you are living coercive control,

you do not have choice, capacity,

1164

01:11:08,697 --> 01:11:10,977

and freedom to make informed choices.

1165

01:11:11,247 --> 01:11:16,227

So you are sat next to someone who

is sexually, physically, emotionally

1166

01:11:17,007 --> 01:11:22,347

destroyed you a lot, most of the time, and

you are expected to give best evidence.

1167

01:11:22,407 --> 01:11:28,137

Like it just doesn't make any, and that's

why we have such low conviction rates.

1168

01:11:28,707 --> 01:11:28,917

Yeah.

1169

01:11:28,947 --> 01:11:31,917

Because there's just no

way of getting around that.

1170

01:11:32,307 --> 01:11:36,447

And I think, um, what was really

interesting as well, I've just had

1171

01:11:36,447 --> 01:11:41,187

it here on my notes, was he did this

other classic thing, which is where

1172

01:11:41,187 --> 01:11:43,917

he made himself out to be the victim.

1173

01:11:44,607 --> 01:11:48,897

So he did this classic thing where

he reverses victim perpetrator,

1174

01:11:49,227 --> 01:11:51,357

so poor me, I'm the victim.

1175

01:11:51,357 --> 01:11:52,587

Like they're the bad person.

1176

01:11:53,007 --> 01:11:58,497

Um, that is, that's also really,

really classic perpetrator behavior

1177

01:11:58,707 --> 01:12:03,777

because they just, um, a lot of

the time they don't, it's really

1178

01:12:03,777 --> 01:12:06,837

weird because they kind of know what

they're doing is wrong, but they also.

1179

01:12:07,767 --> 01:12:09,507

Don't acknowledge it, it's wrong.

1180

01:12:09,837 --> 01:12:13,077

So like, they know it's wrong because they

hide it a lot of the time from the world.

1181

01:12:13,317 --> 01:12:17,097

So if they really thought that it

was okay to, you know, physically and

1182

01:12:17,097 --> 01:12:21,087

sexually abuse women, then they would

be going out there and saying that,

1183

01:12:21,087 --> 01:12:22,257

which a lot of them to be fair do.

1184

01:12:22,527 --> 01:12:25,527

But, um, most of them actually

don't, don't say that.

1185

01:12:25,527 --> 01:12:28,467

And instead put forward this

mask of, of nice person.

1186

01:12:28,857 --> 01:12:35,397

Um, and so that, that kind of reversal

of they're the victim that they,

1187

01:12:35,397 --> 01:12:39,477

there's, you know, 'cause um, with um,

Litsa, you know, when he was talking

1188

01:12:39,477 --> 01:12:42,717

about when she rang him or something

and he was saying like about it's

1189

01:12:42,717 --> 01:12:45,117

the one year anniversary of um Yeah.

1190

01:12:45,207 --> 01:12:46,257

Of his girlfriend's death.

1191

01:12:46,257 --> 01:12:47,182

Yeah, the death.

1192

01:12:48,057 --> 01:12:50,037

And I loved Lisa 'cause she was like.

1193

01:12:50,517 --> 01:12:51,837

I don't mean to be

insensitive, but I don't care.

1194

01:12:52,377 --> 01:12:52,767

Right.

1195

01:12:53,052 --> 01:12:54,897

I was like, yes, girl, go on.

1196

01:12:54,897 --> 01:12:59,397

Because, um, that would've shaken him

probably like, 'cause he's using it.

1197

01:12:59,397 --> 01:13:03,357

Like, he's probably like fake crying

and all this kind of stuff because um,

1198

01:13:03,477 --> 01:13:07,347

that's what he's trying to do is make

out that, you know, and there's al

1199

01:13:07,347 --> 01:13:10,497

there always something like, you know,

whenever she tries to make contact,

1200

01:13:10,497 --> 01:13:13,887

there's like always something going

on with him, something bad going on.

1201

01:13:13,887 --> 01:13:17,877

Like, I think one time she said,

uh, he said, um, uh, I didn't really

1202

01:13:17,877 --> 01:13:20,907

wanna publicize it, but I'm like going

through a really bad mental health time.

1203

01:13:21,537 --> 01:13:25,737

Like, you know, it's just

constant poor me, right?

1204

01:13:25,737 --> 01:13:32,577

Feel sorry for me, um, to

deflect, like constantly deflect.

1205

01:13:32,757 --> 01:13:34,227

And that's very common as well.

1206

01:13:35,307 --> 01:13:35,308

Dr. G:

1207

01:13:35,308 --> 01:13:37,527

And he did that all the way through.

1208

01:13:37,617 --> 01:13:41,487

You know, he did not, he did not testify

on his own behalf, which I can completely

1209

01:13:41,487 --> 01:13:45,147

understand because he would've been

horrible as far as, you know, trying to

1210

01:13:45,147 --> 01:13:47,307

explain these things that he, that he did.

1211

01:13:47,577 --> 01:13:51,267

But he did have an opportunity

to speak during sentencing.

1212

01:13:51,447 --> 01:13:51,747

Right.

1213

01:13:52,617 --> 01:13:57,627

Had the opportunity to explain to

the judge, you know, like his side

1214

01:13:57,627 --> 01:13:59,337

of things to a, to a certain extent.

1215

01:13:59,727 --> 01:14:07,557

And everything was about he, he

basically apologized for having been

1216

01:14:07,557 --> 01:14:10,047

made to do the things that he did.

1217

01:14:11,037 --> 01:14:11,367

Right.

1218

01:14:11,367 --> 01:14:17,397

So it's like, yeah, I took on this

dog because they were gonna kill it.

1219

01:14:17,772 --> 01:14:20,982

So, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have

done it, but they were, they were

1220

01:14:20,982 --> 01:14:23,562

gonna kill it, you know, they were

gonna euthanize it at the shelter.

1221

01:14:23,802 --> 01:14:29,652

Like everything was, uh, I did

this, but this is why, and yeah.

1222

01:14:29,712 --> 01:14:30,552

Everything justifying it.

1223

01:14:30,852 --> 01:14:31,212

Yeah.

1224

01:14:31,212 --> 01:14:33,282

And everything was

about feel sorry for me.

1225

01:14:33,282 --> 01:14:35,292

And he never mentioned his victims.

1226

01:14:35,742 --> 01:14:40,452

At one point, I believe that he referred

to his victims as the people in the back.

1227

01:14:41,472 --> 01:14:41,832

Right.

1228

01:14:41,982 --> 01:14:48,882

So, yeah, and as a, as a judge, I would

think that, you know, and, and Judge

1229

01:14:48,882 --> 01:14:54,342

Hogan was very good in, in seeing through

him and reading what was happening.

1230

01:14:54,852 --> 01:14:59,952

Um, you know, after, after he got

done, he, one of the things that,

1231

01:14:59,982 --> 01:15:06,882

that he said was, you're telling me

that you're sorry, but I don't know

1232

01:15:06,882 --> 01:15:08,562

if you're telling me the truth or not.

1233

01:15:09,918 --> 01:15:09,919

Hon. Judge Hogan:

1234

01:15:09,919 --> 01:15:09,978

I

1235

01:15:09,978 --> 01:15:13,308

have to tell you, you, you,

you have verbalized remorse.

1236

01:15:14,033 --> 01:15:17,748

I, I don't have a clue whether

you're telling me the truth or not.

1237

01:15:18,318 --> 01:15:24,288

I, I, I, I, if somebody asks me later

on, Hogan, what did you think of that?

1238

01:15:24,313 --> 01:15:25,938

I go, heck, I don't know.

1239

01:15:26,658 --> 01:15:32,327

I mean, I saw all this behavior

proven during the trial, um,

1240

01:15:32,388 --> 01:15:35,658

and then I hear this from you.

1241

01:15:36,618 --> 01:15:39,168

Um, I don't know.

1242

01:15:40,188 --> 01:15:40,788

I can't tell.

1243

01:15:42,948 --> 01:15:44,208

So I, I can't check.

1244

01:15:44,208 --> 01:15:47,898

This shows no genuine remorse, but I,

I can't check the one that says you

1245

01:15:47,898 --> 01:15:50,268

are remorseful because I don't know.

1246

01:15:51,779 --> 01:15:54,424

Maya Badham: There's no way

he, he, I mean, he probably

1247

01:15:54,424 --> 01:15:55,564

feels badly he got caught.

1248

01:15:56,044 --> 01:15:56,224

Right.

1249

01:15:56,943 --> 01:15:57,634

Um,

1250

01:15:59,974 --> 01:16:04,324

but he definitely shows, or assume,

will show no form of accountability

1251

01:16:04,834 --> 01:16:08,134

or responsibility at all.

1252

01:16:08,134 --> 01:16:13,324

And that's just this ego will not allow

him, you know, his, his reality will not

1253

01:16:13,324 --> 01:16:16,499

allow him to look at self-reflect mm-hmm.

1254

01:16:16,839 --> 01:16:19,234

Um, at his behavior.

1255

01:16:20,014 --> 01:16:23,794

Uh, and that's why portrait

is also dangerous, because

1256

01:16:26,854 --> 01:16:30,064

rehabilitation is limited with them.

1257

01:16:30,604 --> 01:16:33,964

I think for him, for him

especially, I do not see.

1258

01:16:35,029 --> 01:16:35,959

He will never change.

1259

01:16:35,964 --> 01:16:37,729

I, I, I would be very, very surprised.

1260

01:16:38,239 --> 01:16:40,639

Uh, I mean, I'm almost certain he won't.

1261

01:16:41,539 --> 01:16:44,989

Um, because the first step to

change is taking accountability.

1262

01:16:44,989 --> 01:16:45,769

It's like right.

1263

01:16:45,799 --> 01:16:49,999

Recognizing that you've done

things that aren't okay.

1264

01:16:50,359 --> 01:16:57,559

And I think he could manipulate someone

into think them thinking that he has, but

1265

01:16:57,559 --> 01:17:01,339

I don't think he ever truly will change.

1266

01:17:02,519 --> 01:17:02,520

Dr. G:

1267

01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:08,009

And you know, it's one, one of the things

that he offered was, uh, you know, like,

1268

01:17:08,009 --> 01:17:11,309

well, I know that they don't want me

working with animals, so I will, I, I

1269

01:17:11,309 --> 01:17:13,499

promise not to work with animals anymore.

1270

01:17:13,769 --> 01:17:17,699

Like he's trying to barter, you

know, like his release for I'll

1271

01:17:17,699 --> 01:17:19,589

do what, what they want me to do.

1272

01:17:20,055 --> 01:17:24,195

Steffen Baldwin: So even though I have had

people, uh, try to hire me after my arrest

1273

01:17:24,795 --> 01:17:28,515

and even after my conviction, I had people

who wanted me to put on training session.

1274

01:17:28,590 --> 01:17:32,910

And I did activate my website for

one month out, four and a half years.

1275

01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:39,510

I believe that standing up today and

offering to retire to remove myself from

1276

01:17:39,510 --> 01:17:43,950

this kind of work permanently is the

one thing that I have that still has

1277

01:17:43,950 --> 01:17:46,650

some kind of value that I can give away.

1278

01:17:47,969 --> 01:17:51,389

I believe that my permanent retirement

in the field and rescue and the

1279

01:17:51,389 --> 01:17:55,349

advocacy work that goes with it

might need more than just an apology.

1280

01:17:57,659 --> 01:18:00,449

And if that lets people move forward

after today with their own healing,

1281

01:18:01,469 --> 01:18:05,279

that I'm as happy to give it up as

I was happy to help and I was asked.

1282

01:18:07,529 --> 01:18:07,530

Dr. G:

1283

01:18:07,530 --> 01:18:09,029

And, and he doesn't understand.

1284

01:18:09,029 --> 01:18:09,148

No.

1285

01:18:09,148 --> 01:18:11,609

What people want you to do is

pay for what you've done, right?

1286

01:18:11,609 --> 01:18:12,214

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1287

01:18:12,214 --> 01:18:12,454

Just, yeah.

1288

01:18:12,454 --> 01:18:15,839

He held responsible for all the things

that you do, but he truly thought

1289

01:18:15,839 --> 01:18:17,729

that he could talk his way out of it.

1290

01:18:17,729 --> 01:18:21,059

Like he truly believed that at the

end of the day, he was gonna go home.

1291

01:18:21,644 --> 01:18:24,914

He didn't think that

he was going to prison

1292

01:18:25,334 --> 01:18:26,864

Maya Badham: because he just

That's arrogance though, isn't it?

1293

01:18:26,864 --> 01:18:26,924

Yeah.

1294

01:18:26,924 --> 01:18:29,744

That is just sheer arrogance.

1295

01:18:31,484 --> 01:18:31,904

Yeah,

1296

01:18:32,721 --> 01:18:32,722

Dr. G:

1297

01:18:32,722 --> 01:18:38,031

I do, I, I doubt that it would happen,

but I do hope that somebody does a

1298

01:18:38,031 --> 01:18:44,001

mental health evaluation, uh, while

he's in prison and, and truly dives

1299

01:18:44,001 --> 01:18:52,641

into who he is and, and what he is

because Yeah, I mean, he can, he can

1300

01:18:52,641 --> 01:18:55,611

tell anybody whatever they want to hear.

1301

01:18:55,701 --> 01:18:56,901

He's pretty good at that.

1302

01:18:56,901 --> 01:18:56,961

Maya Badham: Yeah.

1303

01:18:57,621 --> 01:19:01,131

And I think there's just such a danger

with him because, uh, professional,

1304

01:19:01,131 --> 01:19:07,251

most professionals that work in

the statutory sector, they don't

1305

01:19:07,311 --> 01:19:09,471

think that they can be manipulated.

1306

01:19:09,471 --> 01:19:11,991

They have the, they have their own

ego, so they have their own Right.

1307

01:19:12,591 --> 01:19:15,321

Oh, you know, that would, uh, you know,

I never, that never happened to me.

1308

01:19:15,321 --> 01:19:15,921

Oh my gosh.

1309

01:19:15,921 --> 01:19:16,072

It is.

1310

01:19:16,701 --> 01:19:18,231

All the time happening to you.

1311

01:19:18,411 --> 01:19:22,971

That's why we have dangerous people

being released frequently because

1312

01:19:22,971 --> 01:19:27,201

they're lying to you and you are

believing, um, because they're really

1313

01:19:27,201 --> 01:19:30,861

skilled and you have this thing that you

think, that you think that they can't

1314

01:19:31,281 --> 01:19:33,921

get to you, but they can and they do.

1315

01:19:34,401 --> 01:19:36,831

And that that's why,

uh, they're dangerous.

1316

01:19:37,251 --> 01:19:37,252

Dr. G:

1317

01:19:37,252 --> 01:19:37,401

Yeah.

1318

01:19:37,461 --> 01:19:37,550

I

1319

01:19:37,550 --> 01:19:39,531

Maya Badham: mean, I don't even

know if I could trust any mental

1320

01:19:39,531 --> 01:19:40,761

health assessment that came out.

1321

01:19:41,686 --> 01:19:45,201

Just, you just can't, can you?

1322

01:19:45,206 --> 01:19:48,231

And that, that's the problem

with the per with perpetrators.

1323

01:19:48,231 --> 01:19:51,201

And like I said, with with

trying to rehabilitate them,

1324

01:19:51,201 --> 01:19:52,611

like how can you ever know?

1325

01:19:53,061 --> 01:19:56,421

And that, that actually sometimes what

you do when you put, um, dangerous

1326

01:19:56,421 --> 01:20:01,671

perpetrators on perpetrator programs

and or change programs is actually

1327

01:20:01,671 --> 01:20:03,291

you teach them how to be better.

1328

01:20:04,761 --> 01:20:04,762

Dr. G:

1329

01:20:04,762 --> 01:20:07,971

Um, you, you teach 'em what you

want out of them, so then they

1330

01:20:07,971 --> 01:20:09,321

can give you what you want.

1331

01:20:09,336 --> 01:20:09,425

And

1332

01:20:10,416 --> 01:20:13,386

Maya Badham: they, you teach them

what signs they're looking for, so

1333

01:20:13,386 --> 01:20:15,425

they know how to try and dodge them.

1334

01:20:15,881 --> 01:20:18,606

So, so actually you have

to be really careful.

1335

01:20:18,606 --> 01:20:21,486

You're not just making

small, skilled perpetrators.

1336

01:20:22,566 --> 01:20:22,567

Dr. G:

1337

01:20:22,567 --> 01:20:22,836

Yeah.

1338

01:20:23,241 --> 01:20:25,086

Maya Badham: And I know

you've got a lifelong ban on

1339

01:20:25,086 --> 01:20:27,636

keeping animals, um, companion

1340

01:20:27,636 --> 01:20:27,637

Dr. G:

1341

01:20:27,637 --> 01:20:28,236

animals,

1342

01:20:28,296 --> 01:20:32,226

Maya Badham: companion animals,

but who polices that in reality?

1343

01:20:32,226 --> 01:20:32,346

And I,

1344

01:20:33,336 --> 01:20:33,337

Dr. G:

1345

01:20:33,337 --> 01:20:36,876

and I think that it's, it only

applies to the state of Ohio.

1346

01:20:37,626 --> 01:20:37,776

Yeah.

1347

01:20:38,081 --> 01:20:38,371

Okay.

1348

01:20:38,371 --> 01:20:44,106

So, uh, and once he leaves his, um, I say

like his probationary period, he has to

1349

01:20:44,106 --> 01:20:45,996

stay in Ohio for a certain amount of time.

1350

01:20:46,266 --> 01:20:49,206

So it will follow him

at least for, for a bit.

1351

01:20:49,596 --> 01:20:52,296

But, but yeah, no, I, I completely agree.

1352

01:20:52,296 --> 01:20:56,736

Like there are a lot of, of things

that they're not supposed to do that

1353

01:20:56,736 --> 01:20:58,356

they do it anyway, because mm-hmm.

1354

01:20:58,596 --> 01:20:58,716

Yeah.

1355

01:20:58,716 --> 01:20:59,886

It depends on the monitoring.

1356

01:20:59,886 --> 01:21:01,566

It's like he can't do drugs and alcohol.

1357

01:21:01,566 --> 01:21:02,886

Well, are you testing.

1358

01:21:03,441 --> 01:21:06,711

Frequently enough or randomly

enough, because if not,

1359

01:21:06,711 --> 01:21:08,151

you're, you're not gonna know.

1360

01:21:08,186 --> 01:21:08,486

You know,

1361

01:21:08,691 --> 01:21:14,991

Maya Badham: I think the one good thing is

he has hundreds and thousands possibly of

1362

01:21:14,991 --> 01:21:17,991

eyes on him that aren't law enforcement.

1363

01:21:18,381 --> 01:21:22,881

So, you know, if he pops up in another

state doing, 'cause social media is

1364

01:21:22,881 --> 01:21:24,441

such a massive part of business mm-hmm.

1365

01:21:25,251 --> 01:21:32,181

That he, you know, will all, well

mainly you over in the states, but,

1366

01:21:32,181 --> 01:21:37,371

you know, I'm sure that someone will

see immediately and there'll be some

1367

01:21:37,371 --> 01:21:41,391

sort of that the problem is whether,

you know, if it's in a different state,

1368

01:21:41,391 --> 01:21:44,781

you have to kind of start all over

again with them taking it seriously.

1369

01:21:46,041 --> 01:21:50,331

And therefore that's where sometimes

it can, can fall down again.

1370

01:21:50,661 --> 01:21:51,261

Um,

1371

01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:51,802

Dr. G:

1372

01:21:51,802 --> 01:21:52,221

yeah.

1373

01:21:52,221 --> 01:21:52,701

At least.

1374

01:21:52,701 --> 01:21:52,971

Yeah.

1375

01:21:52,971 --> 01:21:58,431

Here in Ohio people know who he

is, so it's gonna be harder for

1376

01:21:58,431 --> 01:22:00,411

him to get away with things here.

1377

01:22:01,281 --> 01:22:01,371

Mm-hmm.

1378

01:22:01,371 --> 01:22:03,921

But once he is released to

other places than, yeah.

1379

01:22:05,796 --> 01:22:06,086

Maya Badham: Yeah.

1380

01:22:07,431 --> 01:22:07,432

Dr. G:

1381

01:22:07,432 --> 01:22:10,581

Thank you so much for, for doing this.

1382

01:22:10,666 --> 01:22:11,166

You're welcome.

1383

01:22:11,166 --> 01:22:11,811

And for what you do.

1384

01:22:12,081 --> 01:22:19,881

Um, because yeah, I mean, I mean, I,

I'm hopeful that this helps people, like

1385

01:22:20,361 --> 01:22:22,671

the people that he victimize mm-hmm.

1386

01:22:22,971 --> 01:22:28,071

Understand why they fell for

things and not blame themselves

1387

01:22:28,071 --> 01:22:29,601

for it, because it's not them.

1388

01:22:30,201 --> 01:22:30,591

Yeah.

1389

01:22:30,591 --> 01:22:30,593

It's him.

1390

01:22:30,598 --> 01:22:30,756

Yeah.

1391

01:22:31,311 --> 01:22:31,521

Yeah.

1392

01:22:31,731 --> 01:22:34,971

And, you know, maybe it helps.

1393

01:22:35,826 --> 01:22:38,166

Some people avoid these traps.

1394

01:22:38,216 --> 01:22:41,821

. Maya Badham: And yeah, and I just

think really the biggest thank you

1395

01:22:41,821 --> 01:22:49,441

should go to all of you that stood

up because it's, it wasn't easy.

1396

01:22:50,131 --> 01:22:51,481

Um, I'm sure it wasn't easy.

1397

01:22:51,481 --> 01:22:56,131

And, um, I think there was a lot of,

there probably was fear involved in there

1398

01:22:56,131 --> 01:23:01,681

too, and you all did the right thing,

you know, and, and what, what we, what

1399

01:23:01,681 --> 01:23:06,631

we are hope we would all do, but it

takes so much strength and, you know,

1400

01:23:06,631 --> 01:23:12,841

I think especially for Litsa and her

husband who started it, and it's been

1401

01:23:12,841 --> 01:23:15,811

years for, for, for all of you as well.

1402

01:23:15,811 --> 01:23:26,101

I think that's, that's again, stolen

time, stolen life, lifelong impacts.

1403

01:23:26,911 --> 01:23:32,476

And you did all of that for justice,

for, for, you know, for, for

1404

01:23:32,476 --> 01:23:33,946

the animals and for the people.

1405

01:23:33,946 --> 01:23:38,925

And I think there should be, you know,

recognition of that strength too.

1406

01:23:41,236 --> 01:23:41,237

Dr. G:

1407

01:23:41,237 --> 01:23:41,626

Thank you.

1408

01:23:41,626 --> 01:23:41,956

Yeah.

1409

01:23:41,956 --> 01:23:47,086

And it's again, kind of like

trying to encourage people if

1410

01:23:47,086 --> 01:23:52,881

they see that, hey, people, people

spoke about this and mm-hmm.

1411

01:23:52,996 --> 01:23:54,316

Something happened.

1412

01:23:54,466 --> 01:23:54,496

Mm.

1413

01:23:54,496 --> 01:23:59,866

He was held accountable that it

gives others hope that if they come

1414

01:23:59,866 --> 01:24:04,906

forward and speak, that something

may happen to their perpetrator.

1415

01:24:05,596 --> 01:24:05,925

Maya Badham: Yeah.

1416

01:24:06,436 --> 01:24:06,796

Yeah.

1417

01:24:07,066 --> 01:24:09,166

I think that's a lovely

place to end on, like hope.

1418

01:24:10,276 --> 01:24:10,636

Yes.

1419

01:24:10,636 --> 01:24:13,966

You know, that something came

outta it that was positive at

1420

01:24:13,966 --> 01:24:17,326

least then he's not here Right.

1421

01:24:17,806 --> 01:24:18,556

Uh, at the moment.

1422

01:24:18,556 --> 01:24:23,026

And, um, there was some form of

justice and then there's hope.