In this heartfelt episode of Becoming Bridge Builder with Keith Haney, Sally Raymond shares her journey of healing and growth after the tragic loss of her son to suicide. She discusses the best advice she ever received: recognizing that every person has a purpose on Earth and it is up to the survivors to continue their work. Sally emphasizes the importance of finishing the job and passing on the baton to the next generation.

She also reflects on the impact of her son’s intelligence, which inspired her to further her education. Sally highlights the need for parents to embrace adversity and allow their children to make mistakes to foster resilience and growth. She shares her experiences with the Children’s Path program, where she teaches social-emotional skills to young people, and introduces her upcoming podcast, Conscious Conversations, which aims to teach effective communication and connection.

This episode is a powerful testament to the strength of the human spirit and the importance of purpose, resilience, and legacy in the face of adversity

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Well, Sally, welcome to the podcast. How you doing today?

I'm doing great. Feeling good about.

So good to have you on.

Yeah, I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Keith.

Yeah, my pleasure. I love to ask my guests this question to get a chance to know you a little bit better. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Wow, that's a great question. my goodness, there's so many.

You know, I think for me, it was a month, the best advice I got was about a month after my son committed suicide at 23. I got a cold call one day. I was in a horrible state. I was absolutely demolished. I got a cold call from a woman who said, you don't know me, but I know about your son. And I'm a psychic.

And I have something incredibly important to tell you, but I won't tell you over the phone. She said, you'll have to come to my home. I live in Sedona, Arizona, which was about 10 hours away. And she said, I'll give you a free reading, but you must come to my home. And at that point, I would do anything. And so my boyfriend had to drive because I was unable to drive. I was too upset. And anyway, she brought me into her home and she's...

had these giant crystals, north, south, east, and west, each one a different color, and we sat in the middle of them in her living room, and she started talking. And I don't remember everything, but what I do remember, and I'll never forget, is that she said, your son came on earth, did what he needed to do, and left. But she said, you and he share the same reason for being on earth. He finished his part.

you'll finish the rest." And I had no idea what she meant then, but 30 years later, I do now.

Wow.

I don't want it, but what I want to say here is that every single person who lives does their part on earth. And it's up to the survivors to finish the work. You know, we're all half through. It will be passed on to the next generation or the people who survive to finish the job. And we're here to finish that job.

And I think that's just the truth for every single person. So that's the best advice I ever got, I think.

Hello?

Bye.

Hey, what happened? Must've lost you there.

I guess we did. That was really scary. I don't know what you heard or what you didn't hear, but.

I did pause it. You were talking about you're all here for a purpose. So why don't you start with the end of the story of the message that the psychic gave you? I got that part of it, but you were telling why we were here.

Right.

Okay, all right. Well, I talked about this woman, Adele Dominsky, who gave me this call and I went down to see her in Sedona and she gave me an hour long free talk. And what I remember is that she said that my son came on earth and did what he needed to do and left.

but that he and I share the same reason for being on earth. He finished his part, I'll finish the rest. And what, and I didn't understand a word of it then, but I do now, and I'm on it. But what I want to tell everybody is that every single person who lives will pass. When they finish the job and they've handed the baton to the people who survived.

We all are here to finish the job. One by one. And it's really, it's such a universal message. And I just felt like that's the most powerful advice I ever got. Is that.

Wow.

That's amazing. Sally, I always think that our journey in life, you just kind of mentioned it, is a journey. So kind of tell us your story. So we get a backdrop of how you got from where you were to where you are now. Just kind of give us kind of fill in the pieces for us.

Okay, well, I, there's a whole lot, but I really believe my life started with the birth of my two sons. Because they became the biggest teachers I've ever had.

Little did I know. I thought I was supposed to parent them. No, it was just the opposite. My eldest, John, was too smart. I didn't know that, but I found that out at two years old when he was two. We were passing a gas station and he goes, T -A -X -A -CO. And I'm like, my God, he read that sign.

And I was like, I never taught him to read. And I was like, that's it. No more Sesame Street for him. It was scary. I was like, my God, I can't handle a genius kid. I mean, what am I doing? I'm a C student in high school, right? And so at seven years old, he was giving me 45 minute debates on why he didn't need to make his bet. And he was winning. And he was winning.

That's right.

Tell my word.

And I was like, it's only going to get worse. And so I had to go back to school to keep up with him. And at 14, he was at UC in the university in calculus with 250 regular college students. And he got the top grade every quarter for the four or three quarters that he took the class and was inventing new proofs.

my word.

Yes, I know. And at 15, he was teaching calculus. At 16, he got out of he tested out of high school and he went into it was admitted into Carnegie Mellon in theoretical math. And in four years, he finished both his bachelor's and master's. And so he taught me that you can if you stay dedicated to what you're about, nothing.

That's amazing.

can stop you. Nothing can stop you. He was just, I mean, I've never seen anyone like him in my life. And to have him as my son, he also for, because he was so smart, I couldn't get a B, Keith.

You

because I got one and he crucified me. my God, I ended up on the couch in the fetal position as he was singing and dancing around the coffee table going, mom is a bee, mom is a bee.

my word.

And I was like, I can't, I'm not a bee. So I never got another bee because I couldn't let him do that to me again, you know.

No, no, not at all.

So I ended up graduating with highest honors and I would never ever ever have done that without my son being who he was just as he was every single minute. He made me who I am and he's still now even though he's been dead over 23 years he's still teaching me every single day and I stay open to everything you know so for me he's not gone at all.

Wow.

Wow. So you wrote the book, The Sun I Knew Too Late, a guide to help you survive and thrive. What led you to write this book?

Well, he committed suicide. He was the superstar. I mean, you can't imagine watching this young boy do nothing wrong, but just do too well. And I was a star -struck mom, and I was busy getting my degree in counseling psychology. And then after 3 ,000 hours, I was working on my licensure when he killed himself.

And none of my stories about him could possibly have ended like that. And I was in shock. I was devastated. I will never get over it. But I realized I had missed his pain.

And that was intolerable to me. I needed to find out what I'd missed. And now I had the tools I'd never had as just a mom with psychology and all the insights and everything else. And so I went on an archaeological dig of our lives. And I started looking for what stories would have fit the bottom line. Then I killed myself. And I found them.

And as I did, I'd write them up and grieve. And it often would take me almost a year to calm down enough to go on looking some more. But I ended up with almost 100 stories.

And as I saw the stories, I realized that...

other people are suffering just as he was. The stories are happening, they're alive, they're happening right now, and so I had to use those stories in a way that would help others avoid what happened to him. And that was the reason for the book, is to help everyone survive what he didn't and we didn't. And that's what I did.

So you say you went and investigated the stories you got and did an archaeological dig into his life. What was the underlining issue that you found or discovered in your digging?

Well, there were a lot of misses, things I missed because I didn't understand or I didn't know. And what we don't know will really come back to bite us all the time. And one of the things I didn't know that I put in the book is as I was going through my counseling training, they have you learn a lot about this one neo -Freudian called Eric Erickson, Dr. Eric Erickson. He's the father of psychosocial theory.

And he's well known, he's really never been anything but celebrated. And he actually did an analysis of the stages of growth and what is the key piece, growth piece that helps us grow to the next level and the next level and the next level. And if that key piece, if you don't know what that is, you are gonna do a random job of trying to support it.

And if you do know, then you know what to do. And then you're able to actually have the ability to support your child at every stage of life. And so at each stage, there's a different toggle that needs to be led to. And if you don't know it, it's going to undermine the child. And John had some issues that happened that were not dealt with well by me. And,

and other things that happened, of course. And I didn't have the information. I didn't know what I was actually doing. And I don't think many parents do. And so my whole thing is I'm using his stories along with Eric Erickson's stages of life so people can know what the toggle is and be able to lead to it and use my son as a cautionary tale as to what can go wrong.

so that we know better what to do because contrast is really important. Knowing what's the problem, what happens if you don't do this sort of thing and what you do instead to keep life worth a living. And that's what my book is about.

Sally, you think about, you say parents miss a lot of the stories there. What is the most common misstep that parents are missing in their child's development?

Well, today, I would say I think parents are trying to shelter their children too much from adversity because adversity is what teaches us, strengthens us, what gives us who we are. When things are great, we just sail along. We're not learning very much, but it's when the wave drops and it gets dark and it gets roily and it gets tough.

and you're scared. That's when we have to really come up with the stuff that grows us from the inside out. And I think parents are doing too much on the opposite side to keep their everything really happy and bright when that's not going to be, that's not going to be of use to those children later on when things happen that are bad, they're going to have no skills to deal with it. My grandmother was the one who kind of gave me that

piece of advice when I brought John home for the first time and I showed her to my grandmother who was a flinty old pioneer lady of the first magnitude. She just said, well, she said, let me tell you what to do. She said, don't keep the house too clean. Kids need dirt. It strengthens their immune system. Without it, they're just going to get sick all the time.

And that was their first piece of advice. And the second one was, and as soon as you get him home, turn on the vacuum cleaner and leave it on for 24 hours. After that, he'll live through and he'll sleep through anything. But the whole idea of dirt is really much more than just keeping the house too clean. Don't.

wow.

give your children to clean a life. Let them get messy. Let them get dirty. Your job is to support them and help them grow, not take care of everything for them. That's not being a good parent. They need adversity. They need trouble so they can grow the depth and the strength and the resilience that's going to help them throughout life. And if they don't learn the lessons, they're going to do terrible things.

because they don't know it better. Yeah, okay, that's, there's more.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Noah So what else what else would you say our parents need to be aware of?

I really believe that we are making a really big mistake in valuing A's and grades. Mistakes are how we learn. Mistakes are not bad. They are the proof that you're at a new learning edge, which means you're right on the edge of learning new information. That's pushing you out. You're pushing your envelope out as you should.

and then the mistakes are proof that this is something you don't know yet. It's not a bad thing. It's necessary. If you're not making mistakes, you're not growing. And we have this horrible fear and hatred and all this going on about negativity about mistakes when they're required for growth. And so I really want to stress to people, just

help your child deal with it and say, you're going to learn it, you'll get this. And don't do it for them. Let them own their own growth. Let them own the hardship trying to get through. You can give them clues, you can help them along, but the most you can do is reinforce them and say, I know you can do this. It's just you're at a new learning edge and you're just about to learn some more.

And the most important part of learning is perseverance. If you just hold on and keep trying, you'll break through. And you'll break through the next barrier and the next one and the next one. And that's what makes you such a success.

I like that. I noticed in your bio that you've got a lot of things that you started and developed. Tell us about the Children's Path program. I was really fascinated by this.

Okay, well, you should be. Now that was after my son's suicide and I was starting my book, but I also wanted to really help young people because I saw a lot of the things that had gone wrong with my son are happening right now. And one of them is teaching young people how to communicate, how to self -regulate their emotions.

Hehehe.

how to analyze critically without being toxic to anyone else and learning tolerance and all these things. And so I went to a conference one year and Dr. Jean Houston was speaking at it. And Dr. Jean Houston is a bit of a, she's a force of nature. She's really, she really is. If you listen to her or see her, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

And so she was talking and she said, who has an idea that they want to start a nonprofit? And I raised my hand and a few other people did. Well, a number of other people did too. And she called me up and she says, I told her what I wanted to do. And she said, anyone else want to do this? And a few hands rose and she brought us, we all got stood up and she said, okay, you guys are starting this new nonprofit.

And you will, you cannot fail. You cannot fail. And we went forth and we started this nonprofit. And so every year I'm one of the, I've been one of the program directors who goes out and teaches by, by teacher invitation. I'm brought into classrooms to teach an eight to 10 week carve out on teaching kids how to communicate this using the skills they have within them.

to help them become more powerful, more effective speakers, to be able to tell their stories, to be able to motivate people, to be able to inspire people. And it's brilliant. I've done it now for over 21 years. And I just watch magic happen every single time because these are the skills we stopped teaching in the Industrial Revolution. We stopped teaching how to speak.

Right.

powerfully how to make a difference. We stopped using the skills that we have within us to do that. And it's look what's look where we're at now. This is a result of, you know, generations of not being taught these skills and you need to be taught them. And so I teach them and I watch in eight weeks, I watch dead board eyes, a whole classroom of dead board eyes.

The whole classroom is dead.

go on fire and the hands start raising and they can't stop and you just watch miracles occur where they suddenly realize they have power, their lives have power, they have the ability to succeed in life, they have the ability to make meaning out of their life, they can really make a difference and at the same time the whole class gets to know each member of the class.

and they can't stop and they just watch miracles occur where they suddenly realize they have power, their lives have power, they have the ability to succeed in life, they have the ability to make meaning out of their life. They can really.

in ways that bond the whole group together. And you know, these kids will never bully any of them. They will never, never do that because now they understand each other in ways that just doesn't happen in a classroom anymore. And so it's just something that I can't stop doing because it's too addictive. I don't make any, I don't make a dime off of it, but I get so much wealth from watching the kids. I cannot possibly stop. I'm completely addicted to it.

Well, it's so neat that you can pour into people and change kids lives like that because you're right we don't teach that.

We don't teach resilience, we don't teach toughness, because those are almost taboo words in our society. And you're right. Parents, I think we get caught up in the life was hard for me, so I want my kids not to go through that, but they need to because like you said, it does build resilience. I mean, the Bible talks about it. You need that persecution because that produces character and character produces hope. So when you have tough times,

How do you find hope if you've never been through a tough time to see on the other side about that there is hope?

Yes, and the hope is within your body. It's in the skill, the abilities it has to, every body has all it needs to survive and thrive. But if we aren't taught the skills, we are at a deficit. And then it just capitalizes and the schools assume parents are gonna teach them these skills when they were never taught them either. So.

Right, exactly.

So yeah.

You're also a movie star, I see. You did something called the Dialogue Project. You want to tell us about your award -winning documentary?

Sure, that was so much that was in 2006. And you have to understand that I'm a landlady and I always have rented a room out just to sort of help me survive with my children since I became a single parent back in 1973. And one year, a young man, I needed a renter and a young man came and I looked at him and I thought Italian.

because I'm Italian. And then I thought Northern Italian, which is important to Italians. And anyway, he agreed he was, he was all of that. And we basically bonded the first night and he lived through the period where I lost my son and he kind of became my surrogate son. And he's been my surrogate son ever since. And Mike is unstoppable. He's the same caliber as John.

as my son who died, but in a very different way. And he's an artist and he's unlimited. And so one year he decided he wanted to be a documentarian and he created this documentary and he made me the principal in it all around the United States. And it was there, it was a set of screens with a lot of, with quotes all over it from Buddha to Madonna to Christ to everything.

And it was to help people in public places start a dialogue, naturally, you know, al fresco, you know, just with, you know, being able to do that. And then we filmed what happened and we got in some film festivals and we won some awards and it was very, very fancy and very fun. And in that documentary, I was basically Lucy in the five cent box wherever I went.

It was my favorite job of all time. I would have done it for the rest of my life. And because I was meeting people in the moment in a moment of their lives that you never knew what was going to happen. And I would end up speaking. They didn't know I was a psychotherapist, but I'd end up talking about things that mattered. And.

A lot of times people talking to me would be talking about suicide or very difficult things that they're going through. And because I was a therapist, I could really, you know, match them and speak with them and work with them on that. And what they didn't realize is that behind them, people were forming in lines around us, behind them, all listening in, because it was a conversation that mattered. And it was so delightful. And of course, that wasn't what my...

surrogate son wanted to film. He didn't film me, but that's what I had. That was my piece that didn't get in the film. But it was a miracle to see, you know, that you can be you could be an ad hoc therapist anywhere if you just got a table and sat down somewhere and started talking to people. I loved it.

Yeah, it's people they really do miss that I think that that dialogue and the conversation especially with a kind soul who listens to their their Situation in life. We don't we don't do a lot of listening. We do a lot of talking today in society. We're not a lot of listening

We do a lot of judging, Keith. We do a lot of judging and that is not the smart, that's not a smart animal thing. That is not, not, not a smart animal thing. You listen, you learn, that's smart. You be curious, you be tolerant, you be open, you will learn and then you'll be so much more effective. But anyone who would snap judges is missing 99 % of the information.

Yeah. Judging too.

Yeah, exactly.

So.

You have done so much, Sally, with your life post your son's suicide. I am curious, as you think about this particular season of your life, what are you excited about?

I feel like I'm just beginning my life, Keith. I honestly, I'm 80 years old. I'm going to be 81 in July. It's terrifying. But honestly, I believe that I'm just beginning to hit my stride, that I have a lot to say now that I've been working with because of what happened to my son. And of course, my other son too, I haven't been able to talk about, but he also has been an incredible teacher.

Heheheheh

And everything has, I mean, everything has taught me. And now it's time I see the world falling apart. I see a lot of divisiveness and hate that I never really saw so much before. And it all needs to be addressed. And I don't think that we have the skills today to be able to do that, but I know what we're missing. And I see that happening in my classroom every single year I teach. And I know that it will work. And so I'm starting a podcast with it.

a beautiful young Indian girl, Hindu, and we are going to teach social emotional skills in a podcast to the world. And so it's going to be a one room classroom of all ages and all nationalities and all cultures and all colors. And we're going to really teach everybody how to get along and how to communicate effectively. And it's going to be great.

What's the name of your podcast?

Conscious Conversations.

All right. Has it already come out or is it coming out?

No, it's coming out. We are getting corporate sponsors and I've got the curriculum all set up and we're on fire.

So you have a launch date.

No, I don't know. I mean, I'm going to talk to her tomorrow and I imagine she's going to give me one because she's really, she's really the marketing expert. I'm not, I'm just a psychotherapist. I don't know how to make money. She does.

So give us, give us the name again. So we'll be looking forward when it comes out.

I sure will, I sure will. So yeah.

So you say the conscious, what's it again? The name of the podcast going to be.

Conscious Conversations.

All right, we'll be looking for that.

So Sally, I love to ask my guest this question. You talked about in the beginning of our conversation about the message you got from the psychic about everybody has a mission to do and a assignment to complete. As you think about yours, what do you want your legacy to be?

Okay, well.

That's really a good question.

Bye.

On my father's side, I go back to the Mayflower.

Wow.

And on my mother's side, it's just the boat all the Italians came off of. But, like a boat. But I really, you know, my father's side were Quakers, very kind and very thoughtful people. I used to think they were fairly boring because the Italians were so much more spontaneous and, you know.

Yeah.

witty and crazy and fun and all that, but that kind of, that caring, thoughtful, you know, where every single person is a sacred person is so important. And I think we have lost that connection. And I really want to remind people that this nation was founded on the idea of, you know, freedom, justice and liberty for all.

that every single one of us is that special precious thing from God.

and we were born perfect in his eyes, as we are. And so to bring that consciousness back and teach us the skills that we're missing to be able to really work with, talk with, and connect with one another and live together in peace and harmony, I think that's what we're supposed to be doing.

And so I want to really reboot the social emotional skills quotient. I want to reboot tolerance, perseverance, trust, and the ability to listen and not judge.

I love that. As you wrap up today, Sally, what key takeaways do you want the audience to walk away with from our discussion, especially as it concerns parents and their impact they have on their kids?

Okay, first of all, I would really highly suggest you read my book or at least read Dr. Eric Erikson and find out about the eight ages of men because you really need to know what to lead to and what to avoid at each stage to help your children thrive and grow into wonderfully fabulous adults that are really gonna contribute to the world. But also, I really want people to stop treating grades as such a big deal.

It's about the process, you know. Reward the effort your child is making in school, not the grade. Grades become punitive. Because if you get an A and you use everybody, wow, you got that A, you have to get another A and another. And you can't, it just starts to whip you. And so reward the effort, say wow, you really put a lot of work into that, no matter what the grade is.

Just support them.

Don't be outcome based, be process based. Be with your child. Allow them to feel their feelings, but don't do it for them. Allow them to make mistakes. Just encourage them. Say, you're going to get this. It's going to be, on the other side of this, you're going to look back and go, it was really easy. I just didn't see this one piece. So that's really important. And also teaching them,

It's going to be on the other side of this, you're going to look back and go, it was really easy. I just didn't see this one. So that's really important. And also teaching them communications skills. Teaching them how to get along by modeling them. And if you don't know them, you ought to read them. Take my podcast. We will do that.

communication skills, teach them how to get along by modeling it. And if you don't know them, you ought to read, take our podcast. And we will do that for you. But I mean, these are really important things that, and don't protect your children too much. They need adversity to grow themselves into resilient, powerful people.

So people can find your book, The Sun I Knew Too Late.

So those are the takeaways, I think, for parents. I'd love to have them really live.

A guide to help you survive and thrive. Where can I find your book?

anywhere. It's on Amazon. It's got 4 .6 stars. I'm very proud. You should read the reviews. They're really awesome. Or any bookstore. You can order it anywhere. Or from my website. I have a website, sallyaraymond .com.

And I've checked out your website. Your website is fabulous. Nice work on that. We encourage you to pick up her book, to leave a review for it on Amazon, because that's how the book gets found and circulated, and share it with her friends, share it with her parent. It'd be a great gift for a new parent who's just trying to figure out, I know when I was a new parent, all the resources I could get were helpful to help me make sure I didn't mess up my kids. So yes, if you get a good tool and resources, we encourage you to pick up Sally's book and to share it with a friend.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, well, Sally, thank you so much for being on the podcast and blessings on the work you do. I'm so encouraged by the fact that someone is pouring into our young people, teaching them how to communicate, how to be resilient, because we need to invest in this generation because I think we've let our kids languish too long. So I'm encouraged that you're doing that and you do it with such joy and such a wonderful spirit. So may God continue to bless you richly as you do that.

Well, thank you so much, Keith, from you. That's just deep, deep, deep heartfelt praise. And for you too, my friend, all that you're doing to bring light into the world and God's words and God's message and God's love, because that's what it is. A guru once told me that all we ever see is love or a cry for love. And if we just look at that, that's huge. And that's...

Right.

straight from God.

Right. Well, Sal, you have a blessed day and thank you so much for being on the podcast and you're welcome to come on any time and tell us what you give us updates of what you're doing.

I'd love to do that, Keith, anytime. Anyway, thank you so very much. You're just awesome. All right.

Well thank you.