It makes me think of the Gottman Institute perpetual problems that happen in relationships, which, as we know, most problems are perpetual. Sometimes these problems really do become what the Gottmans called gridlocked, and that means that there's a lot of pain, a lot of distrust, a lot of anger, a lot of resentment that can show up because of the feelings around these problems and the fact that the two of you can't seem to see eye to eye when speaking about these problems. And it comes up often. And I think that exactly what you said at the beginning, Dedeker, the cost benefit analysis of this relationship and thinking about these problems, if they never changed, is this sustainable? Is this something that I want to continue being a part of? Because there is a very good chance, I think, from looking at all of this, this may never change.

Welcome to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm Jase.

I'm Emily.

And I'm Dedeker.

We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.

Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you.

On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're back answering a listener question. If you have a question that you would like to be answered and discussed on this show, you can fill out our form at multiamory.com/questions. And today, the question we're going to be getting into is about priority in relationships and how to deal with never feeling like a partner's first priority and what to do when you're being kept secret to their friends and family. If you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show and apply in so many different situations and different relationships, check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or wherever you like to buy books.

And just a quick disclaimer that the three of us have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but part of what makes relationships so interesting is that they are all different. Everybody's situation is unique. So of course, we encourage you to use your own judgment, seek professional help if needed. Ultimately, remember that you're the only true expert on your own life. Your feelings, your decisions are your own. You don't have to necessarily follow the advice of these three chuckleheads. And this question has been edited for time and clarity.

Here is this week's question. How would you reconcile never being your partner's first priority or feeling like a shameful secret? My partner of two years is getting married, and though I've known about the engagement the entire time, I'm having a hard time reconciling my feelings around it. Because of her position in life, work/family, she can't be openly polyamorous to friends, family, or coworkers. And to make things more complicated, we do work together as well. I do have another partner of five years, and his advice is to break things off with my other partner to limit my heartache around feeling like such a huge secret in her life. I've listened to the pod for three years, read your book and many others, but still find myself struggling with the feeling of not being important in her life. At this point, my issues seem to be more internal. Though we've tried to have weekly check-ins, there was so much anxiety on my end surrounding them, and separately, my partner doesn't seem to remember to work with me on them. And I'm almost too afraid to ask and start the day off badly when we do work together. She's drawn clear boundaries that things that I may want, like public handholding, are not on the table. And I did know this at the top. She also asked me to practice polyfidelity while we're together. And she said that if I'm not willing to do that, then things have to be broken off. I feel like I don't have any relationship power within the relationship, and that though I say the things I want or need, I feel met with an iron wall of that's just how it is. I feel like I'm a secret in her life, though she's shown no signs of shame with me. It's just hard when intimate or soft moments are abruptly ended because someone could see, someone calls, and then I'm reduced to being her friend or best friend in the eyes of those important to her. Signed, Wistful in Washington.

Oof.

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot to that.

That's a lot. That's a lot.

But props for an alliterative name, Wistful.

Yes, always, always get extra points for a good alliterative name. Can I start by making this about me first?

Please.

Why not? Let's talk about your problems instead.

Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Let me just knock this question out of the way and just bring in my own. Well, what this made me reflect on is, in the past year or two years, I want to say I've been in a chapter of starting to date again slowly. And the last, what is it, three people that I've dated, as in going on dates, not creating a relationship formally or anything like that, but the last three people, different individuals that I've been going on dates with, what they held in common was none of these people were out to their family.

Oh, wow.

None of them, I think none of them were out to their friends either. Maybe only out to certain friends, but not their extended friend circle, right? And now that's a big contrast with someone like me who's basically professionally out. I'm not out to absolutely everybody I know in all contexts at all times. But I definitely, pretty much though.

If they googled you, the jig is up.

The jig is up, man. Because none of these individuals yet have developed into, oh yeah, this is a partnership or this is an ongoing relationship or whatever. I haven't yet had to tackle the question of what does that mean? Is that okay with me? Is that a situation where I would want them to change that? Is that a situation where I would have capacity to be patient with that? Because on the one hand, I'm kind of like, well, I mean, I'm busy and I'm also not necessarily rushing to have someone else to introduce to my family. Because even the thought of that, I'm just like, ugh, even though I'm out to my family, but I'm just not necessarily ready for that milestone with somebody. And so I'm kind of like, maybe that's not super important for me at this stage. But then also, I think like, this question asker, I've been in situations where this has felt really painful in the past to feel like I'm being kept a secret or to feel like someone can't introduce me to their friends or I can't show up in the way that I want to, or I can't be seen publicly and socially with this person. So I don't even have an answer to my own predicament necessarily, but that's, this is something I'm chewing on also is the importance, like how important is it that I'm dating someone who's a similar level of outness? 'Cause I set the bar very high for level of outness.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that everybody's gonna be that out, although, of course, some people will be. If somebody decides to date a person like you, Dedeker, or a person like any of the three of us, or even a person within the non-monogamous community that maybe is just super out to everyone, there's always the potential that the person who decides to date them could be found out in some way. Just by proxy. And I think that that is a thing that everyone has to weigh when they get in a situation of deciding to date someone, of if I choose to get in a situation with this person, that might mean a certain amount of things for my life. And on the other end, too, if this person is not out, that's going to mean a certain thing for my life that, yeah, I wouldn't have to deal with if I could tell absolutely everyone and if they could tell absolutely everyone that we were together.

Yeah, and I think that's what's interesting about Dedeker's story is you're sharing what could have been the start of this story that the question asker wrote in with.

Yes.

'Cause I feel like from the fact that they mentioned the whole, I did know this at the top, that things like, We can't hold hands in public, that's off the table. And I knew that up top. What I read in that is a certain amount of what I think any of us would feel is this, well, I knew that going in, so I can't really be upset about it. I'm not allowed to be upset about that. But it is that, like Dedeker, you said, and you're like, well, I don't really care. It's not such a big deal right now when we're just starting to date, when we're just starting to figure this out. And it's kind of that, I'll worry about that later. Maybe it'll change over time. I don't know. And so that is hard, right? And I think I just want to reinforce that. You don't have to feel bad about your feelings about that to this question asker that, yes, you knew that going in and you can't say, ah, you tricked me, but that doesn't mean that can't suck for you, that that can't feel shitty, right? So just want to give a little bit of validity to those feelings there.

Yeah, and reading between the lines, I don't know if this is actually happening, but I've definitely seen this play out in my practice that sometimes people can weaponize that. Like this sense of, well, you knew going in that this was the deal. Right?

Right, I told you so, I won't even discuss it.

Yeah. I told you at the top, this is how it was. And that's, yes, that can be true. That can be true. Yes. Correct. And also, stuff changes. Feelings change. We're really bad as human beings at predicting how we're going to feel about something in the future.

Yeah.

Right. So, yeah. So it is okay that even if you felt like, oh, at the top, I knew what I was getting into that that was okay then, and it's not okay now, or it doesn't feel very good now.

I want to touch on the fact that these two people work together. And as somebody who just started, well, not just, but as somebody who started a relationship with my coworker and I'm now in a relationship with them, when we started, we also decided not to tell anyone at work. And I think that that's a very common thing, especially at the very beginning, because you don't know is this going to last if one of us breaks up with the other?

Just like Javier Bardem and Penelope Cruz and Vicky Cristina Barcelona, as you said, they were so professional and didn't tell anybody.

Yeah, there you go.

There you go. All roads lead back to Javier Bardem.

Of course, always. But it is that thing of, you know, is this going to affect getting a higher position in my work if somebody knows that I'm dating this person, et cetera, et cetera. So there are even just, are people

going to make drama when there doesn't need to be drama? Totally. It's that, what if we do break up and we're fine, but everyone else makes it a thing and now it's weird. Like, yeah, I get it. Yeah.

No, absolutely. I do get that. And I think that there is a big shift when if and when you decide to come out as even dating to your fellow coworkers and say, yeah, we're making this official. This is a thing now that we're going to be explicit about. I will say, for my part, we eventually made the decision to tell people, I think around this 5 to 6 month mark. No, because he came to Hong Kong and that was four months in. So people knew. People knew.

I had to explain why he was going to Hong Kong to see his coworker.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, people knew, I think, maybe three months in or whatever, but this is two years in. That is a long time to keep this from people. Especially when it sounds like they're having cute moments at work and then abruptly stopping them because somebody maybe comes by or you're around your coworkers or whatever. And I don't know, that's just a lot of mental bandwidth and calculus to have to deal with on the job, not to mention the additional challenge of I can't be out to this person's family and loved ones because they don't want anyone to know. So I don't know, I just, I want to acknowledge the challenge of the work element here too. And that to all of you out there, if you're getting into a relationship with your coworker, think long and hard about all of those things, because I think that it can be really challenging and it can affect down the line as well.

Well, so I want to list off how, you know, Wistful in Washington seems to be listing out a number of costs that come along with this relationship. So they didn't spend too much time on this, but they talk about the whole getting married piece and where again, they say, even though I've known about the whole time, I'm having a hard time figuring out my feelings around it. So it's like, okay, there's this particular cost of this maybe feels weird or uncomfortable to them. There's the cost that their partner is not out. And so therefore it means we can't really be affectionate in public together. We can't hold hands. I can't be introduced to your family and friends. Our workplace doesn't get to know about it. There's the cost of, okay, I'm just going to put this under the umbrella of cost, the polyfidelity piece. Again, they did not elaborate on that. I don't know what the details of that are. I have so many questions, but to me, I'm interpreting that as they're also being asked to not date anybody else. Possibly like they're not being asked to date anybody else or in the sense they're being asked to maybe not bring in anybody new, right? So as in only date, their existing partners right now, that's my interpretation. I don't know if this person feels like that's a cost or not, but the way it's framed about how if they don't do that, then things can be broken off to me sounds like that's a little bit part of the cost of admission to this relationship. And then the cost of them feeling like they don't have a lot of power within the relationship or feeling like there's just a sense of this is just how it is and I have to deal with it or else. And we can't really discuss, we can't really negotiate around these particular things. And I lay all that out not to say that we can objectively decide which relationships have a high cost or a low cost or whatever, because that's all subjective. I lay that out just to say that I think in any relationship in life, whatever costs we are paying, should to us relatively feel like a small price to pay for what we are getting from the relationship. So I can look at this person's situation and I might project myself into it and be like, whew, I would not be able to pay those costs, but I don't know what the benefits of the relationship are, right?

Yeah.

Now, this Wistful in Washington did not give us a big laundry list of how wonderful this relationship feels to them, right? Or how, oh my God, I love them so much and we have such a good time and yada, yada, yada, and the sex is amazing and yada, yada, right? So I don't think that's the case that this person feels like these are all small costs to pay, but I just wanted to put that out there that we could maybe take any one piece of these, like the being closeted or the poly fidelity piece or whatever, like maybe we could take one piece and to one person that cost is like, that's a good price for me to pay for what I get out of the relationship.

What a steal.

What a steal. Exactly. And I think that that's, I mean, I hope everyone that loves me feels that way about me, because I know I come with some costs, but it's like, oh, what a steal, right? So anyway, I just wanted to put that out there, is that we don't have a lot of information about what benefits this person is getting from the relationship. And so to me, I am kind of like, ooh, this seems like a lot of costs, but we also, we don't know. We don't know. There must be some kind of benefit that's coming through in order for them to stay in this situation. Whether or not that's actually sustainable or not is up in the air.

But yeah, I think you bring up a good point that with anything like this, there's a lot we don't know, right? We don't know how big these costs are and we don't know what the benefits are. But I do think since they're bringing this question in and clearly struggling with these things, the cost of all of this together feels high for them. Right.

It feels like it to me.

We can't make a final decision for them of how that equation works out, but we can talk about some of the costs here. And so, like you identified Dedeker, there's a few different areas of this that we could look at separately and even on its own could be worth having a whole conversation about, but the fact that they're all sort of mixed in together, I think, is worth looking at. And I think that we can start getting into each of those pieces. But quick, we're going to take a break to talk about our sponsors for this show. Thank you to all our sponsors. Please do take a moment, check them out. Sometimes we're funny in our ad reads too, so listen to them, you know.

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So with all the different things going on in this, I think one that we teased, but we could talk about a little more is this poly fidelity piece. Now, the way that it's presented in the question asker's question here is that the poly fidelity was presented as, if I'm not willing to do that, then things have to be broken off. And, you know, sounds very ultimatum-y to me in the way that they said it. And it's interesting to me too that it's, things have to be broken off, not we don't have sex with each other if that's the case. So to me, it doesn't feel like this is even just a sexual health concern, but this might actually be something else of, I don't even want you to have a relationship with someone else 'cause I can't handle that. Which feels a bit rough with how secret you're having to keep this person to me personally. Again, that's just my own sense of how I would feel in this situation. But it does bring up an interesting question though of this poly fidelity thing of, does that mean that their other partner is expected to not date new people too? That's a really good point. A complicated term to define and enforce and to have there. So that just feels, yeah, like putting

boundaries on other people.

Right, and that they would have such a hard line on it, at least that's how it's presented here, to me feels like there's not a sense of why or what that's really about, because I feel like if you get to the heart of it, then there tends to be a little more room to adjust or to make that work for everyone involved. And this feels like just kind of a unilateral thing. I don't know if it is, but-

if I was going to go out on a limb again, this could be a completely wrong guess, but if I was going to go out on a limb and that the polyfidelity is just about, I don't want you dating anybody new, like I'm fine with your existing partners, to me, that maps on pretty perfectly to the patterns that are very common in non-monogamy in the sense that if you start dating someone who already has other partners, that for many people, it's easier for their brain heart to feel more comfortable with that. And then it's the moment they start dating somebody new, that then the attachment threat and anxiety comes in. And so then a way to manage that attachment threat and anxiety could be, hey, I'm totally fine for you to have multiple partners, but nobody new, please.

Yeah.

This is me completely just going out on a whim, just guessing, could be totally wrong.

Okay. The question asker has a partner and that partner is engaged to someone else. And I'm like, does that person have other partners?

Does that person... Hmm, that's a good question.

Know about this? Like, I'm assuming yes, but the whole big secret thing makes me wonder also if they are a secret to this partner, if this is like non-consensual, non-monogamy.

I feel like that would have come up in the question if that were the case.

Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah.

I didn't read that into this at all. I think that would have been a separate concern if that were the case here.

It just again, but that polyfidelitous question of being like, okay, it's also not dating anyone else.

Yeah, that is true.

Did they maybe come to the relationship with an existing partner, and then the two of them decided to get engaged and eventually get married, but yeah, they're not allowed to date anyone else either? I don't know. It's just that's so strange to me. When people do have other partners, but yeah, the no one new thing is fascinating.

Well, before we just snowplow down the hill with assuming that this partner, the one who's closeted, is just the horrible controlling bad guy in all of this, I mean, they definitely don't sound very good based on how this is all presented. However, I just want to bring in maybe a little bit of compassion and some understanding in systems where there's a lot of control and where there's a lot of rigidity. Often the rigidity is a reaction to pain and sometimes trauma. Rigidity is like, there's something here that's really unsafe, and I've never been able to protect myself, and so I need to go more and more and more extreme in my rigidity in order to protect myself here. Now, we don't know what the stakes are of this person being closeted. They mentioned work and family, but we don't know what that means. Right. We don't know, is it a super conservative family where they're financially dependent on family? And therefore, if they did anything to ruffle feathers in their family, that would mean a significant threat to their livelihood or their housing or something like that, or their support network. Same thing with work. We don't know what the culture of the workplace is or whatever. So it's like we don't know what the stakes are and whatever the stakes are, we also don't know what this person's personal history is with things like this, right? With like going against the grain or with social rejection or dealing with social friction or stigma, right? That there could be something that to them feels very real, like it's gonna have a very real negative impact on their life if they're found out or if they're open in any way. Or it could just be all internal, like emotional impacts. Now, does that justify the daisy chain impact of that that's having on their partner? Not necessarily. But that's where my brain goes to is I'm kind of like, if things are this rigid, there's a reason for it. It may not be a quote unquote good reason. It may not be like a sustainable reason, but there's a reason why there's this need to so intensely protect something with this rigidity and, you know, and, and to wistful in Washington who sent this in, maybe you know the answer to that, right? Maybe you know literally what the stakes are, or maybe it's unclear to you. Like maybe that's actually something you don't know here. Like maybe it's not clear what the actual real world impacts would be. And there's something inside your partner that you don't know yet. And that could potentially be a place to explore under the right circumstances and under the right conditions to have that sort of vulnerable conversation around, what are the actual stakes if someone saw us holding hands out on the street.

Yeah, definitely.

Right. Yeah. And I think that it's worth acknowledging that from what I can tell from the pronouns here, I think that this person is female dating a man for five years. That's that existing partnership. And then the one we're talking about that's closeted is with another woman at work, and that woman is engaged to be married to a man. So I think there might also be this double level of closetedness of the non-monogamy, but also the queerness of it. So that could add some stakes. I get that. But still, I think Dedeker's question stands of what's really at stake there, right? Where is this coming from? Is it just an unwillingness to suffer any discomfort, or is there real risk there? What do you evaluate wistful in Washington? And we can't answer that for you.

I think with all of this, this is sort of a laundry list of a lot of different things that are challenging, at the very least, to this person. And it makes me think of the Gottman Institute, perpetual problems and gridlocked problems that happen in relationships, which as we know, 69% of problems are perpetual. So that means that you are not going to solve them in your relationship. It's just always going to be an ongoing agree to disagree type of thing. However, sometimes these problems really do become what the Gottmans called gridlocked. And that means that there's a lot of pain, a lot of distrust, a lot of anger, a lot of resentment that can show up because of the feelings around these problems and the fact that the two of you can't seem to see eye to eye or get anywhere when speaking about these problems. And it comes up often. And I think that exactly what you said at the beginning, Dedeker, the cost benefit analysis of this relationship and thinking about these problems if they never changed? Is this sustainable? Is this okay? Is this something that I want to continue being a part of? Because there is a very good chance, I think, from looking at all of this and from kind of the rigidity, as we've discussed, of not being able to move in one direction or another or come to sort of a compromise, this may never change. And is it worth it to this person to continue going through the pain that they're feeling in order to be with their partner that has all of these stipulations and constructs around this relationship? Is it worth it? And I think that that is ultimately the bottom line. Yes, we can look at the pain involved in the reasoning behind why these rigid structures are put up. And I think that that's always a great thing to think about and to understand. I wish, honestly, in my last partnership that I had thought about the controlling nature of that relationship and realized that probably a lot of that came from pain that my ex partner had and been more compassionate about that.

I don't think you needed to be more compassionate about that.

Well, thank you.

Okay. In a Buddhist sense, sure, you could be compassionate about that now.

I think, yeah, it's a lot easier, you know, many years after the fact. But I do think about when you bring stuff up like that, Dedeker, about my own life and thinking about my past trauma in my relationships and seeing also patterns in myself of wanting to put up rigid structures around my current relationship because of trauma from that last one. And it is good, at least, to think about these things kind of from a global level and realize, let's not continue the errors of the past and have history repeat itself and instead, move on and try to move forward and not keep repeating these same patterns. So I just think overall, yes, it's good to have compassion, but at the end of the day, you're the individual who has to get up every day and live with the pain that is involved of being in this kind of structure. And is it worth it to you, really, to keep doing that? Maybe the answer is yes, but maybe deep down you realize the answer is no, and that's also okay.

Yeah, I wanted to jump in with something a little bit related to that, kind of what I think is maybe the core of this for me. And that's about this thing of not feeling like I have any power in the relationship. And though I say the things I want or need, I feel like I'm met with an iron wall of that's just how it is. And I want to start by offering a little bit of compassion for that in that there are often situations where they might feel like there's this circumstance that neither of you can control. It's like this has to be this way for good reasons, and they might also be suffering from that, but if it feels like you're the one coming to them complaining, and they interpret that as they want me to solve this, and I can't. And so that's frustrating, and I just wanna be like, that's just how it is. When what you might be saying is, are you suffering too? And they might also be, but instead they feel like they have to go to a defensive place because they feel more like you're accusing them of this thing that they feel like is not in their control. So I wanna give a little compassion for how that can happen. But I do want to say basically what Emily did, which is, but that also doesn't mean that it's okay. It also doesn't mean you have to keep doing this. And that feels like a lot of pain. And I think the fact that this question ends with this whole, it's just hard for me when we have these intimate or soft moments and then they're interrupted by maybe someone could see or someone calls or then I become just a friend, and that that's what's painful. I kind of feel like that's just what you're able to point to when all this other stuff is the pain of not feeling like you have power and agency in this relationship, not feeling like you get a lot of say in it, feeling like all of this has been on their terms and that there's not a flexibility there. And it seems like maybe they're not willing to do the work with you based on what you said about them not really wanting to do check-ins and then you don't even want to bring it up because then they might be weird to you at work. To me, it's like there's a lot going on here and this whole just being called a friend in public, I don't think is the problem, but that's just my take on it. So I'm curious. Curious for Wistful in Washington to do your own evaluating of what's, what's really at the heart of this? And if it sucks, it sucks. And you don't have to say this is a bad person to say this isn't going to work for me.

So something I say a lot to my clients, and I think that this is relevant whether you are monogamous, non-monogamous, whether you're in a strict, rigid hierarchical situation or a non-hierarchical situation, like however. As human beings, I think as we mature in relationships, we realize that we can't necessarily be number one to somebody all of the time. I think as we mature, we realize, yeah, we're all adults. We all have different priorities, right? Maybe you have kids and I have my work, or you have your art projects, or you have your own hobbies, or whatever. And so I acknowledge that I can't be the one you're texting all the time. I can't just have your attention and your focus all the time, right? We can't necessarily be somebody's number one all of the time, but we all want to feel like number one some of the time in all of our relationships. And that can be true whether this is your nesting partner or whether this is someone who's just like a friends with benefits that like, that's, I think that's the fundamentals of connection is like when I'm in front of you and when we're together, whether we're just meeting up for a hookup or whatever, I do want to feel like a priority in this moment. I do want to feel like you see me as a whole human being and you care about me and you care about my well-being and in a situation like this, and this connects back to some of the whole price admission thing. I think if Wistful in Washington feels like there are enough moments where they do feel like number one to their partner, they do feel like a priority, that could theoretically, hypothetically give them enough capacity to be able to weather these other moments that are more rigid where I feel like, oh, I can't be your number one in this situation. But I suspect that that's not what's going on is I suspect that they just maybe feel like they're number one. None of the time or very little of the time, and that might be part of the issue.

Or like the moments they feel like number one could get snatched away.

Or it gets snatched away.

There's a sense that anyone might be around or see this.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I wanted to say that because I wanted everybody to hear it, you know, that regardless of what situation you're in, and I know we're all juggling priorities and multiple partners and stuff like that, but like your desire to feel like number one is natural. And it's okay to feel like you want that at least some of the time with your partner.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's a great point. And I love feeling number one sometimes. I just want to say our usual two is it's okay to break up that this person doesn't have to be a bad person. They can have good reasons for it. But if this is just causing you a lot of pain and you can even point to these external factors, if this isn't working for you, if you decide these costs are high, it's okay to just say, I like you a lot, and I can't do this situation as it is. This just causes me too much pain. If this changes in the future, I'd love to maybe explore this again, but I can't right now. I know that's hard. I make that sound like it'd be easy to talk about, but it's not. But just to know, you're not a bad person, you're not failing this relationship. This isn't your fault because you agreed to some of these things or you knew this would happen going in. None of that is what matters in relationships. It's how are we actually feeling about it? What is this providing in our life? And I don't mean providing in a materialistic sense, but in a spiritual sense, if you will.

Thank you, Wistful in Washington, for writing in and good luck to you. And for everyone out there, we have a question of the week that's going to be on our Instagram stories, and that is, have you ever dated someone with a different level of outness from you? And how did that go? And the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram @multiamorypodcast.

Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Dedeker Winston, and me, Emily Matlack. Our production assistant is Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on Multiamory.com.