Melody's journey from cult life to healing unfolds in an engaging narrative that examines the psychological impact of her experiences. Entering the House of Yahweh at just 15 years old and remaining for five years, she shares her story of isolation and indoctrination, detailing the complexities of marrying into the cult's leadership. As she recounts her struggles with the group's teachings, particularly the shift towards polygamy, Melody reflects on the emotional turmoil of reconciling her ingrained beliefs with her growing realization that she was trapped in a toxic environment. The transition from belief to disbelief was fraught with anxiety, leading her to a pivotal moment of excommunication that provided an unexpected exit. Her insights into the nuances of leaving a cult resonate deeply, illustrating the long road to recovery and the importance of self-acceptance during this process.

Melody's current endeavors, including her Facebook group Cult Escape and Recovery, and the podcast Cultimatum, reflect her desire to support others on similar journeys. By offering a platform for survivors to share their stories, she fosters a sense of community and empowerment. The episode ultimately serves as a testament to resilience and the ongoing journey of healing, reminding listeners that recovery is not linear and that it's okay to take one’s time finding their way back to themselves.

Hey, everybody.

Welcome back to the podcast Empower Her Wellness.

I have Melody post with me today.

Melody is the co host of the podcast Cultivated.

Cultimatum.

Yep, Cultimatum.

I knew I told you I practiced it before we got started.

I have to get on here and screw it up.

Cultimanium.

But that's okay.

We're going to put link down below in the show notes.

Everyone can take a peek at that.

And you also lead a Facebook group called Cult Escape and Recovery.

So Melody's going to talk to us today about her time in a cult and how she got out of that cult and what she's doing today.

How's that sound, Melody?

That sounds great.

Okay, I'm just going to let you get started with your story.

Okay, sounds good.

I will start off by just giving a short little background of my cult experience.

I was in a cult called the House of Yahweh.

I joined with my family, my mom, my dad and my sister when I was 15.

I was in for about five years.

I actually was the only one in my family who actually moved to the location of the cult.

We lived in Michigan.

The cult was in Texas.

I got married to the leader's son and moved down there for two years.

And that in itself was a transition for me.

I mean, my dad tried to warn me because I think he was starting to see the group for what it was.

But by then I was already betrothed and engaged and had in my mind I was going to get married because, you know, I was.

Was 18.

I know ever.

And you know everything when you're 18, right?

Exactly.

And so he had kind of warned me that, you know, Israel Hawkins, that was the name of the leader of the cult.

He said, oh, he's going to try to control your life once you move down there.

And I'm like, what are you talking about?

That's not going to happen.

You know, we're adults and we're 18 and we're going to be married and nobody's going to be telling us what to do anymore.

And of course I was wrong.

And so I had to transition into living away from my family.

And I'd grown really close to my sister at that point because we bonded over the fact that we were in this cult and yet we were still going to public school.

And so it really forced us to bond in a way we hadn't.

We kind of, you know how sisters can be.

We fought a lot when we were younger and had a lot of.

But it heads a lot.

And being in the cult Actually caused us to grow a stronger bond because when we were in school, we were the only ones who understood what the other one was going through.

And then, yeah, you know, fast forward a couple years after I got married, they started the cult, started teaching multiple marriage.

And I'll explain a little bit about that.

Basically my father in law had got caught cheating on his wife, which was my mother in law with his secretary, and basically said, well, I haven't sinned, I've done nothing wrong and I have nothing to apologize for.

And she's just another wife and we're all going to have to embrace this new teaching.

And it's in the Bible and it's, there's nothing wrong with this.

Yeah.

And basically my mother in law was devastated, as you can imagine, and she wasn't having any of that.

And my husband and I and the youngest daughter, they had five children at the time, but she the youngest daughter.

So my sister in law and brother in law all kind of sided, I'm going to use the word sided with my mother in law and we're supporting her in this and, and we're really struggling to accept this new teaching.

And you know, I, I think because of the cult mindset and the brainwashing I had, I certainly went through a period where I was almost trying to force myself to accept this teaching, even though deep down inside I knew this wasn't something that I could personally live with.

I'm a pretty jealous person.

So I would go through this period of oh, well, you have to accept this because this is the new teaching and this is what you believe and this is your faith and this is your religion.

And so I tried to almost force myself to accept something thing that in the back of my mind I knew for me was unacceptable.

I'm just like, I won't be able to do this, I won't be able to share my husband, I can't do this.

And so I wavered in that time period.

And of course that was another transmission transition for me.

And then I had the transition period where I finally actually decided I really don't believe this anymore.

And I actually think this is a cult.

And, and for anybody who's been in a cult, there's this.

They actually, as I think in particular the Jehovah Witnesses have come up with this term, it's called pimo, which means when you're physically in but mentally out.

And I went through that period of chemo where I was stuck physically still in the group and still going to the, the Sabbath services and you know, playing the role, but I didn't really believe it anymore.

And it's because there's this transition period when you're going through that where it's almost like you're a frog in boiling water and you find yourself in this pot and you're like, oh gosh, the water's really starting to boil now and I have to get out of this pot.

But you have to physically figure out how you're going to do that.

Right?

You got to climb the walls now to get out.

Because everything in my life had become ingrained in this group.

And it's not an easy process.

You don't just wake up one go, I don't believe this anymore.

So I'm leaving.

It's much more complicated than that.

You have to almost work your way out of it and you have to take very deliberate steps to get yourself out of that situation.

You have to plan for it.

And we were in the process of planning and I actually in the process of planning and knowing that my mother in law, my husband, my sister in law and brother in law, we were all going to leave, we knew we were going to leave before we could actually leave.

And I, I'm going to be honest, I think it, I think there was listening device in my mother in law's house and I think they were listening to our conversations and they had heard that we were talking about leaving, not coming back.

We all were served excommunication papers at the same time.

So they were like, well, you can't leave, we're kicking you out.

Which, you know, I, in hindsight, I just kind of find it a little bit funny and ironic and I guess a little bit of a blessing because I felt like it gave me an easy out as far as the friends that I had that were still there because everybody I knew was connected to this group at this point.

And so you've got to create a whole new, a whole new circle, a whole new way of thinking, a whole new way of life.

But I felt like it did give me a way to explain, explain it to the people that I was still friends with that were in like, I can't go back, I've been kicked out.

Right.

It's not my fault.

So.

And then there came the transition after that would be.

Do you have any questions so far?

I do, but let's keep going.

And one more.

Yeah, no, you're okay.

Oh, you're writing, you're writing them down.

Okay, good.

So at that point, then the next transition that I had to go through, Was.

So now we're, we're out, but we're still physically living very close by to the cult.

We're still on my father in law's property at this point.

And we know we're being watched.

We know that we're being scrutinized, which I kind of had grown to live with a little bit because we were quite scrutinized when we were in the group.

I'll give you an example of some of the control that my father in law had on us over that time.

And this seems somewhat small, but it's just really, it's very weird and bizarre.

So we lived on the same property at that time as my father in law when I first moved down there and got married.

And he could see our trailer from his farmhouse was.

He could see out the windows.

And he had called us into the office to lecture us about how late we were up one night and had let us know that he was going to start docking our pay $10 a day for every night that our lights were on past 10pm so he was controlling our bedtime.

So it was, that's, that's some pretty deep control, you know, to be that concerned about when somebody else is going to bed or waking up in the morning.

Right, that's, that's an example.

And for us, that was a very big deal because we didn't make very much.

And we, we both worked 40 hours a week doing the work of Yahweh in the cult.

And we together made $120 was our paycheck at the end of the week.

And for years I thought that we were both making $60.

Right.

Split evenly.

I found out years later that no, the men made $80 and the women made 40.

The men made twice as much as the women.

So I was getting paid a dollar an hour.

And they can get away with that because they call it a blessing that we're not considered employees.

We're volunteering our time and they're giving us a blessing.

It's not a paycheck.

That's how they get away with that legally.

Because obviously, legally, you know, you technically would have to pay somebody minimum wage.

Right?

But then the next transition would have been leaving from Texas back to Michigan.

I had to because.

And originally my plan was to stay in Texas.

I mean, I had married and moved away and I lived there and my son was born there because I did have a child while I was in the cult.

He was a home birth and.

But I, my fear level grew to a point where I Couldn't stay there anymore.

I was very fearful because I had a friend that lived on the property of the compound and she also was not accepting of this new polygamous teaching.

And she was being.

She was trying to sell her trailer because she owned the trailer that, that was there.

And of course, outside of the group, nobody wants to buy a trailer on the compound of a cult, right?

So she was having trouble selling and nobody inside wanted to give her a fair price because they're like, well, she wants to leave, we should get a really good deal.

And my father in law was trying to offer her a very low ball price for her property in her house.

And what he ended up doing because he really wanted to get rid of her because she wasn't.

She was very vocal about her.

Her disagreement with the new belief.

And ultimately there was an accidental fire and her trailer burned down.

And I never believed that was accidental.

I, I known from other stories that he knew how to start a fire and make it look accidental.

And her little dog was in there and he had died in the fire.

I went to help her clean up and salvage what she could out of the fire.

And you could see the little outline of his little body on the carpet because it was not.

It was the only spot on the carpet that wasn't smoke damaged.

Was very sad, but that scared me.

That was when I knew he was capable of things that I couldn't have imagined.

And so I had told my husband at that point I said, yeah, I and the baby are moving back to Michigan.

You're welcome to join us, but I can't stay here anymore.

I don't feel safe.

And, and my family did get together and they actually started.

Basically it was before the days of GoFundMe, but with my.

My extended family started to GoFundMe to where a bunch of family members donated toward the cause of getting us a moving truck and helping us move from Texas back to Michigan.

And my husband did, at that time, he did come with me.

Our marriage didn't last, but.

But he came with me initially.

That was going to be my.

Be my question if he, if he did, one of the questions was, did he?

He did.

And I think he was looking for an escape away from his life.

And he had grown up, you know, in this cult environment and he knew nothing else.

And so I think he wanted to break away and experience the world as well.

And, and our marriage didn't last.

But that was because of very, you know, he had a lot of issues.

We both did.

I mean, it's one of those things where when you're in a cult and you have that cult mindset, you really conform to the group and you, you really conform to that group thinking and you really become a version of yourself that everybody in the group thinks you should be.

And so when you meet somebody under those circumstances, you're a cult version of yourself and their occult version of themselves.

Right.

And then when you get out of that environment now you're trying to figure out not only who you are because you're like, well, who am I without this group?

This group was my identity and this is how I defined myself was by my beliefs.

And so you're just deconstructing that.

And at the same time, if you're, if you're coming out with a partner, the spouse is doing that same thing, they're, they're just deconstructing themselves.

So you don't even know who you are, let alone am I compatible with this person that I'm with?

Because really, essentially what we found out is one of the only things we had in common was the cult.

That was what we had in common.

And so the marriage did not last.

So that of course was another transition period.

Going through a divorce.

Yeah.

And so I was, I felt like I was losing my faith in my marriage.

At the same time I was going to be a single mother.

I went through a period of being, having a very, very low self esteem, ended up with, actually ended up in about an eight month relationship with a pretty severe alcoholic during that time.

Because I, the, the cult belief was, and, and maybe even just some of my own personal beliefs that I had even before that, that I was now a divorced woman and a single mom.

And that held a lot of negative connotations for me.

And I just thought, well, nobody's going to want me now.

That was my theory.

So the first guy who had gave me any little bit of attention, I just latched onto him.

And it was very unhealthy, very unhealthy situation.

But I, and, and I transitioned out of that relationship.

I basically came to the conclusion that I was, he was not a good example for my son.

And I think if I had not had a child, I probably would have stayed in that awful situation a lot longer.

But when I was really concentrating and seeing the things that he was doing, I was just like, this is a horrible father figure for my son.

I've got to get out of this.

And, and so, and I actually, for a very short period of time, two months, moved to Louisiana during that time.

So I ended up back in Michigan again and actually had determined at that point that I don't need a man, I don't need a spouse, I don't need a boyfriend.

I'm just going to be a single mom and do this by myself.

I'm just going to put my nose to the grindstone, do what I got to do.

And so I went back home.

I did live with my parents for a while.

I had put my name on a, on a list to get into some government assisted housing as a single mom and ended up in the process.

My sister set me up with my now husband and I wasn't even really looking but she's like, I got this guy I work with and I really think, think he's a nice guy and I want to set you up with him.

I'm like, I, I really don't know if I'm ready for dating.

I jumped into that last relationship too quickly.

But I'm like, but I'll give try, we'll just see how it goes.

And honestly, he was just amazing.

He very understanding right from the start.

I mean even I, I told him about the cult on the first date thinking, almost like trying to scare him away, like, right, you, you don't, you don't want to hang around with me.

I've got a lot of baggage here, buddy.

Then I just figured, you know, better to get that out in the open early on because if he's going to run better now than the sixth or seventh or eighth date.

Right.

That was my, that was my mind said at that point.

So I just opened up and he was, his reaction was the opposite of what I thought.

He was like, oh, this is really interesting.

I, I've never met anybody who's been in a cult and he had all kinds of questions for me as other, his other thing was I've known your sister for over a year.

She's never mentioned this.

Like well you're a co worker and I don't think she really likes to just oh, by the way she talking about it.

But yeah, exactly.

By the way everybody I work with, I was in a cult.

Yeah.

So I'm like, yeah, she doesn't really, you know, run around talking about that.

Yeah.

And, and so he was, he was a very understanding and a very, I was still second guessing but he was very, very good to my son and I, I just, I, that made me fall in love with him more than anything else because he was such a good father figure for my son and very good for him and really treated him like his own from the start.

And we had, after that we had two boys of our own.

So we raised three boys together including, including my son from my first marriage.

Yeah.

And.

And then I really, you know, I, I would say a lot of my identity went into my children at that point in my life and I was very focused on raising my children and being a mom.

Could, could I just stop you for a second before we do.

Yeah, yeah.

I think I know where you're going with this empty neck.

Yeah, you think?

Yes.

Yeah.

Which I know I can relate to definitely.

But so how did you.

First of all, I just.

Just a curiosity question.

Does your son have a relationship with his biological father?

He does.

He does.

And he is.

And him, him and all his siblings have now left.

So my, my ex husband and my ex mother in law and all of her children have all left.

So he's got it.

Not only relationship with his father, he's got a relationship with his aunts and uncles and his grandmother on that side.

Okay.

Which has been very good for him.

And none of them are in the cult anymore.

I mean he's had some curiosities about the cult and I know that before my ex father in law, the cult leader died, my son was talking about when he was in late high school, wanting to meet him when he went down there.

And I'm just like not a good idea, Eric, not going to work.

And I told him, I said, even to the point where I said, you know, they won't even let you in the gate unless they think that you believe it.

I mean they're in, it's a compound.

They're not going to just let you in to talk to him just because you're his grand grandson.

That, that doesn't mean anything unless you are conforming to the beliefs.

How old was he when you left?

How old was your son when he let you live?

He was, he was young.

He was eight months old.

Okay, so he didn't, so he knew nothing really have that indoctrination?

No, no.

Luckily he didn't, he didn't get any of that.

And you know he, I think he and I was going through a very confusing time in my own life of deconstructing my own beliefs.

Well, see, that's why that was going to be my next question for you Melody is how did you do that?

How did you work through your.

What you believed and reconciled when you came out was like well this isn't, this isn't right.

Yes.

What did that do to you mentally, emotionally?

You know all those, all those things.

Yeah, it was, that was not an easy time.

I mean, I, the beliefs were so ingrained in me and I don't know partly if it was because I was so young or maybe my mind was just more susceptible to a lot of the brainwashing, but, you know, I, Yeah, here's an example of something that I got a job at a fast food restaurant when we first got out and left and moved back to Michigan.

And I didn't even last a week because the first time I was scheduled to work on a Saturday, which is what we kept as the Sabbath, I had an all out and out panic attack.

I hyperventilating, crying, I can't do this, thinking I'm going to burn in hell.

Had this almost thought in the back of my mind, well, maybe I should go back to the cult because it will ease this anxiety.

Maybe I should just go and beg them to let me back in.

I think that's such an important point because regardless of whether it's a cult, an abusive relationship, an addiction, we tend to think that was our comfort zone.

I don't like this anxiety level.

Let me do the thing that's going to ease my anxiety.

But you, you fought that.

I did, I did.

And that's not, It's.

I would like to say it's an easy process, but it really takes time.

It really takes an amount of sitting with that anxiety until it eases and just realizing, okay, I'm still here.

I'm still, you know, I'm not burning in hell, I'm not getting cancer.

How did you, how did you get rid of that belief, though?

Because I know you can sit with the anxiety, but how did you manage to finally let go of that limiting.

More than a limiting belief, but a belief that if you went to work on the Sabbath, you were going to burn in hell.

How did you.

I will say for me, it took a lot of time.

It took years.

I mean, I, I would say even after I married my current husband and we were together, I still avoided getting jobs where I worked on Saturdays.

And I still actually didn't, didn't do any, like, I wouldn't go grocery shopping or do any buying and selling on Saturdays because that was also part of the teaching and belief.

And I just kind of made it look normal.

Like, oh, I don't like to shop on Saturdays because the stores are too busy.

Which is true.

And I kind of do that still now.

But now if I happen to be in town on a Saturday, I will shop on a Saturday for Me, those, those learning those transitions was very slow.

I know that for some people, it's not even people my own age that left the same cult I did were able to work on a Saturday and eat bacon and put a Christmas tree up in their house right away.

For me those things came really slow.

I can't even say exactly the day or when that fully shifted.

For me there was not like this aha moment.

It just slowly, slowly.

Even with like the Christmas tree thing.

The first year I had a tree in my house, it was really meant for an outdoor tree, but it just had the branches but no needles and little LED lights on the end.

And I'm like, well it's kind of pretty but technically it's not a Christmas tree because it doesn't have any needles and I'm not going to put any ornaments on it.

I like, I like that that how you like eased into well this, this we're going to start slowly with this non tree.

Like yes.

I'm like it's technically not a Christmas tree, it's an outdoor tree.

And, and I'm not.

And then the next year I was like maybe I'll hang a ornaments on this tree.

And then the next year I bought this little bitty like tree, this tall small tree like maybe 6 inches tall to where it actually had some little lights on it.

And I'm like, okay, well technically this is a Christmas tree, but it's very tiny.

It's a tiny little tree.

And so I really did very much and it was 17 years until I put a full blown tree Christmas tree into my house and decorated it.

I, I appreciate you saying that because I know, you know, when I talk to all sorts of women, they're all really well put together now.

They've gone through, you know, years of.

And I think that's important for my listeners to realize that you just said it took you 17 years to get a real Christmas story.

So these things don't happen overnight for people.

And that's okay to go through that process as like you need to go through it.

Absolutely.

And I think that that's, that's a really, those, those are hard questions, right?

Because everybody that asks those kind of questions that's going through it themselves hopes there's a clear and simple answer.

Right?

Oh, you just do this and then you go on the other side and everything's okay.

There is no clear and true answer and there is no one answer that works for everybody.

You know, there are people that left my cult that put Christmas trees in their house the year they left and they had no problem with it.

That just wasn't.

That process didn't work for me.

And though it's a very individual thing, it's.

It's a lot like grieving.

You can't tell somebody how to grieve.

You can't say, well, it's been a year, you need to be over it.

Well, that's.

That's not.

That may be one person's reality, and that may be able to.

How one person processes it and other people.

It can take a lot longer than that.

It can take 10, 15, 20 years.

Those things are very personal, very individual.

And I think it's has to do with a lot of things, you know, your personality, your environment, your support system.

There are so many factors that play into that to where.

I mean, my husband was so very, very supportive and very.

What is the word?

He was very accommodating to what I wanted to do at the time and didn't try to push me into, well, I want a tree and we're going to put a tree in this house.

And he was not like that at all.

He was just like, whatever you're comfortable with.

The only thing that.

The only boundary he set up is that he wanted his parents to feel comfortable and free to celebrate Christmas with our children.

And I was like, I'm okay with that.

I can give on that.

So that was our compromise, was that we didn't, for years didn't have a tree in our house, but we celebrated Christmas with his family, and we allowed our children to receive Christmas presents from his mom and dad, their grandparents.

And that worked for us.

And I will say there was this, not, like I said, it was a process.

But I do remember the day when I realized I wanted to buy Christmas presents for my children.

We were outside, we were building a snowman with our boys, and the snow was gently falling.

And it looked so much like Christmas.

It was a little bit of a Christmas scene, just snow gently falling.

Remember looking at these snowflakes falling, looking at my kids making.

And I'm like, I kind of feel the Christmas spirit.

I think I want to buy our kids Christmas presents this year.

And I would say my oldest by that time was maybe 12.

So we're talking 12 years later to where.

And that was when.

And we still didn't have a treat.

I just wanted to get them something for Christmas.

So all of these things were just very, very incremental for me.

And it's, you know, everybody wants that clear, simple answer, those magical answers, right?

For those kind of things and they're just usually it's much more complicated and much more personal and individual for each person.

You can't, you can't give an answer that.

I mean, that's another question that I get a lot from people that are not in cults themselves, but they have family members in a cult.

And another really hard question to answer is, well, if I have a family member in a cult, what do I say to them to get them to wake up?

How do I get them out?

Oh, oh gosh, you know, I wish there was this magical sentence you could say that they're going to wake up and say, oh, you're right, this is a cult and I'm leaving.

But it's so much more complicated.

You just have to keep that door open.

Encourage critical thinking.

Try not to yourself be too critical of the group.

Probably don't even call it a cult because I'm sure they don't call it a cult.

Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I'm going to join a cult today.

They think they're in a religious organization.

They think they found the truth.

They're in a self help group, whatever it may be.

They believe they're in the right place doing the right thing.

They don't, they don't see it as a cult.

You usually don't see it as a cult until hindsight looking back and then you're like, oh yeah, that was a cult.

Because I didn't even call my group a cult for years.

Yeah, I've spent a lot of.

And I think that's a great parallel to abusive relationships because I've spent a lot of my professional career working with abusive, abused children and women and men.

Yes.

But you know, the worst thing you could say say.

And I think the worst thing you could say to a person in a cult member is the worst.

Just like the worst thing you can say to someone in an abusive relationship, you need to leave that person because that person is.

And just get out, just leave.

And it's not that relationship.

We don't understand.

Well, why don't you just leave?

It's real hard because you're so.

I don't know if I want to use the word indoctrinated, but you've just got so much of your belief in what is happening at the moment, whether it's the marriage or the relationship or being in, in a cult.

So I think that's a really good thing to highlight.

Melody and I appreciate you doing that because just, you just can't say to someone you need to get out of there because.

Yes, exactly.

No, it.

It would be wonderful if there was that magic word that you said and somebody just was like, oh, yeah, you're right, I'm gonna leave.

But that's.

Unfortunately, that's not the reality of these types of situations.

And like you said, there's usually a lot of underlying manipulation, coercion going on.

There's things going on in the background that the people from the outside have no knowledge of.

Exactly.

Don't understand it because they're not experiencing it.

And until you experience that, you don't fully understand it.

And, you know, sometimes people have an aha moment where they just totally wake up, whether it's from a cult or from an abusive relationship, and say, I've got to get out of this situation because it's crossed a certain line or whatever that may be.

Just something happens.

But usually before that something happens, there are these little cracks that start happening in your beliefs.

It's not like you just switch from one train of thought to another like that.

And a good analogy that actually another ex cult member from my cult had used the analogy that losing his faith was like having a plate, that every time something happened that he didn't understand or didn't agree with, the plate would get a little crack and then something else would happen and get another little crack until finally there was that thing that happened that shattered the plate, and then his faith was shattered and he had to look at the reality of what it was.

But all these things just cause these little doubts that build up until.

Until the plate shatters.

And I love that analogy because I could relate to it so much.

I'm like, yeah, that is.

It's exactly what it's like.

And I like analogies anyway, because I like that.

That visual thing for mental things that we have going on that you want somebody to understand.

And a visual analogy like that really helps somebody to understand it.

I feel like in a.

In a more solid way than.

Than.

Rather than an abstract way.

When you were.

And when you were talking about the plate, I was.

I flashed on my ending of my marriage with my second husband, who I call him a narcissist, although he was a diagnosis one.

Emotionally abusive.

And as you're telling me that.

Telling me that plated allergy Melody, I'm going through.

Okay, well, there was a crack.

There was a crack.

And I can tell you the exact moment that plate shattered.

Yes.

And I knew that I had to get out.

I want to go back quickly and just say, talking about, you know, not working on Saturdays and not putting up the Christmas tree.

I, I really like how you just gave yourself permission to do what you needed to do.

And I, and I think a lot of us don't do that because you could have been like, well, I have to put up a Christmas tree because that's what everybody does and it's Christmas.

Right.

But you really gave yourself permission to take a step back and say, I just cannot do that yet, but here's what I can do.

So just giving yourself permission to be okay with moving through the process like you need to move through it.

And I had a partner who was giving me permission and supporting me through that, which I think is, I'm going to say, I think that's unusual.

And I think I got very, very lucky in that way.

I found somebody who was very patient with me, and for all he knew, I would never feel comfortable putting a tree in her house.

But as soon as I started doing these little incremental things where I was bringing Christmas in a little bit more and more every year, he was very accepting of, just very flexible with, this is nice.

This is nice.

I like this.

And I was like, okay, okay, this is, this is good.

He's.

Because I almost felt like in the beginning, I was like, well, maybe he doesn't really like Chris.

Maybe he's a Grinch, you know, because I wasn't sure is this, is this just sincerely him supporting me?

Or maybe he just doesn't like Christmas and this gives him an easy out because now he can throw me out under the bus and say, well, we're not celebrating Christmas because she doesn't like it.

No, it wasn't that.

Because the minute I started incrementally reintroducing it and bringing it back into my life, he was okay with that.

Yeah, you could tell that he was not a Grinch then, right?

Yes, exactly.

He's not a Grinch.

It wasn't that he was a Grinch.

It's just that, that, you know, he was being very patient with me and allowing me to process in this as slowly or as quickly as I needed to.

And I think that is important for your listeners to know and at whatever transition or healing process you're going through, give yourself permission to take as long as you need.

And, you know, and certainly I believe that it's possible had I found a really good, like a D deprogramming or cult type counselor, somebody who had expertise in this area, I may have been able to go through this transition much quicker.

And I think that nowadays, with the Internet, I think in virtual counseling sessions, people can get that and support groups online, you know, support groups, and talking to people who have been through it, that you're like, oh, this person has been through it.

So they do know what they're talking about because they've lived it.

That makes a difference.

And I could tell that this guy just.

He.

My story was way out in left field for him, and he just had no concept of what I was talking about because he hadn't been through it.

And I was just like, this is not going to be helpful.

After one session, I just thought, I'm not going back because this is helpful.

And I love the fact that today we have that for people coming out of cults, that there are experts out there.

There are people.

And let's say you live in California and you find somebody in New York who specializes in this, you can do a virtual session with a counselor who really gets you and understands where you're coming from.

It doesn't have to be somebody right down the road from you, which is, you know, awesome for.

Especially for people that live in rural areas where there's not a lot of choices or opportunities to find somebody that has a specific area of expertise.

And honestly, that's whether that's coming from out of a cult situation or an abusive relationship situation or addiction issues, whatever that is, you really do want somebody who has an expertise in the area because it makes a difference.

Absolutely makes a difference.

Yeah.

Before we move on to the other things that you had going on in your.

Your life, I just want to talk quickly about your podcast.

And then you have a Facebook group as well.

Yes.

So tell us a little bit about both of those.

Well, and I'd originally started a Facebook support group just for those people who had left my particular cult for just ex members of the house of Yahweh.

The reason I started the cult escape and recovery group to reach a wider variety of survivors was because I actually lost a friend that was an ex cult member.

He.

He died of an overdose.

And I really believe that a lot of his issues and a lot of his problems were at least somewhat rooted in the cult.

And some of the past and the trauma that he had experienced.

And I just felt this calling that I wasn't doing enough to help fellow survivors.

And so that is why I branched out and created another Facebook group to where it reached anybody from any kind of cult.

And, and that was where that, that grew out from.

I just wanted to reach more people and try to help more people.

And then this, just this spring and late April, is when cultimatum released this first episode.

And that actually derived from Anonymous Andrew, who is my co host on cultimatum, had posted in my cult escape and recovery group.

He found the group and was just looking for people because he had started a miniseries on his own podcast which was really about relationships.

But he had gotten kind of pulled into the Twin Flames universe.

I don't know if you know or have heard anything about Girl.

I watched that on tv.

Oh, yes, that they had a couple documentaries on that crazy, crazy cult story, right?

So Anonymous Andrew on his podcast had gotten pulled into because it's kind of relationship related, right?

They claim they can find your twin flame.

They claim they can find your, your one true love.

Well, Andrew had gotten interested in the Twin Flames cult, but then kind of got interested in cults in general.

It brought him to a more broad idea of he wanted people to come on and share onto his podcast and share their cult stories.

And so I went on to his podcast as a guest sharing my cult story and experience.

And at the end, he was like, at the end, don't, don't.

Hold on, I got a question to ask you.

So we kind of ended the interview and off Mike, he was like, would you be interested in co hosting a podcast with me specifically about cult survivors?

He said, because I really am interested in doing that, but I feel like I need somebody, I need a co host who has actually been in a cult to do that with me because I don't know a lot about cults because I'm just kind of getting into this and getting interested in it.

And I feel like I need somebody there that's been through it to do it with me because I feel like they're going to trust you more.

He said, I feel like they, they think that I've got another agenda when I'm, when I'm doing this, because I haven't been through a cult myself, so it seems more suspicious, right?

He's like, I just feel like I, they think I'm.

I've got some ulterior motive where he said, I'm just really interested in the subject.

He said, I like helping the underdog, and I like, you know, he's just.

That that was his.

And he goes.

And I find these cult stories just fascinating and interesting.

And that was how we developed the cultimatum.

I had to think about that because I wasn't sure I wanted to do it.

But as it turned out, I was, you know, I.

I really did want to do it.

I just was a little bit scared of taking that next step.

But I.

I felt in my heart of hearts it was the proper next step for me to take, because I love the idea of providing that platform for our fellow survivors, because I really do think that for a lot of us in our cults, we are muzzled.

You only.

You can only say so much.

You don't tell the secrets.

You don't share, what you don't want to know.

You.

There's this tattletale mentality inside the cult where you.

If anybody's stepping out of line, you're supposed to tell on them, and there's all this secrecy going on.

And I do think that it's very empowering once you get out and you're out now and you're.

You're at that point in your healing process where you almost just.

And not everybody goes through this phase, but a lot of people do, where you just want to shout to the world, hey, this is a cult.

And I want everybody to know and they're doing damage.

And I just want, you know, you want people.

You want to create awareness so that other people don't fall into the same trap that you fell into.

And.

And I loved the idea of helping provide that platform for people so they could.

I really feel like not only is it part of their healing journey to share that part of their story and to speak their truth openly and have that, because it's really empowering to do that once you're out, because you've been so controlled for so long.

And.

But I feel like for me, every time somebody comes on the show and they share their story and I hear them share their story, it's even still part of my healing process and my healing journey that I feel like this is still part of my process, too.

And.

And in the beginning, there were times when it was actually brought up some trauma for me.

I had nightmares.

I woke up a couple of times even dreaming that I was back in my cult and then waking up and going, oh, my God, I'm so glad that was just a dream.

But some of hearing some other people's stories and hearing their trauma and brought me Back to some of my own trauma and my own experiences.

But having gone through that again, I think sometimes in reliving your trauma, you do heal through that.

It's not always easy.

I mean, I don't know if you've heard of Shadow Work.

I've.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And.

And it's a little bit like that to where going back into your own trauma and it actually helps you heal the present.

Right.

And just acknowledging what you went through in that pain.

So it's, it's.

And that's how I ended up doing Cultimatum.

And Cultimatum has been very therapeutic for me.

And Andrew's.

You know, Andrew's been a joy to work with.

We really, you know, divide the.

The responsibilities up pretty equally.

He does most of the audio stuff and the technical stuff, and I do, like, the COVID art and I help recruit the.

The guests on the show.

I, you know, scroll through social media, finding people that are.

I feel that I.

That they're on that part in their journey where they're ready to tell their story.

And, you know, some people I've reached out to and they're just like, I don't think I can share my story.

I'm not comfortable with that.

And I'm like, you know, it's not for everybody.

And for some people, it may not just be the right time.

And I'm like, if it's just that it's not the right time and, you know, a few months down the road, a year down the road, you decide you're ready to tell your story, just reach back out.

But I would never want somebody to come on the show and share their story that isn't ready.

Because if it's not, if you're not at that point in your healing, it's not going to be therapeutic and it's going to be uncomfortable for everybody.

Right.

You've got to be in the right place to do that.

So, yeah, that's.

And that's been a really fun part of that journey is helping provide that platform for people that are in that place because, you know, it's.

It's just very enlightening.

We had one girl that was so excited and younger.

I'm gonna say she's younger.

She's probably in her late 20s, early 30s.

But she was sharing how she had been deprived of not watching movies or doing any.

Not going to concerts, not knowing and not.

Not listening to secular music and discovering that she loves country music and going to this concert, and you could just see the joy on her face.

And I'M like, we got to share that with her because you could see how exciting that was for her that she was experiencing some of this stuff for the first time, even though she was at an age where you would think she had already.

She would have already experienced that.

Right.

But she, she was deprived of it.

And it's very, very exciting to see somebody, you know, enjoying that and feeling that, that part of their healing and moving forward.

I bet, I bet.

Well, I'm going to.

I've been listening to some episodes of the podcast.

I'm going to put all your links down below for people who are interested or might want to join your group.

That'd be great.

But.

So what's happening now?

Are your boys all raised and gone and.

Yes.

What's been going on?

Yes, that was a transition for me too.

I went through that transition of not knowing what I wanted to do after my boys were getting older.

They were in their teenage years.

They weren't quite out of the house yet, but I felt like I needed to do.

And I actually got into home health care for a while.

I started with taking care of a quadriplegic and I took care of her for about a year and she was, she was a, she was in her 30s at that time and she, as a young child, as a six year old girl, had been hit by a car getting off the bus and but, you know, it was, that was very learning.

I was very nervous when I first, because this was my first home health care and my first, my first patient or client was a quadriplegic.

Was very stressful.

I felt like literally her, her life was in my hands.

Oh, that's tough.

That's tough.

Yeah, yeah.

Because there was, there were, you know, there were times when I would have to do the bag and breathe for her while they were clearing her throat out.

And I'm just like, literally, her life is in my hands.

This is a lot of responsibility.

But I did figure out from that that I really did enjoy.

I did that for eight years.

I took care of her.

I took care of somebody in late stage Alzheimer's.

I took care of a Parkinson's patient for four years.

I don't like to pick favorites, but she was my favorite.

She was a, she was just a delight.

And I took care of her in her home and her became, really became friends with her and her husband.

She was just the sweetest lady and just very, very grateful and appreciative of everything I did for her.

And I think that that was just the caregiver part of me, you know, I couldn't take care of my boys anymore.

So I went into health care because I felt like I still had that heart where I wanted to be taking care of somebody.

That's an interesting observation.

Yes, yes.

And I.

And I think that even transitioning from that and that changed for me in Covet is when I stopped doing that and we actually moved to a more.

We.

We had a.

A lake on a house, a small cabin on a house where we were eventually going to retire to.

But when Covid hit, my husband was able to work remote and they basically ended up telling him to not come back.

And I ended up.

At that point, we moved across the state.

We ended up selling out where we lived before and moving into the boonies.

And I love it.

It's a small house on a lake.

It's very peaceful.

And we've fixed up the house and done some additions.

We had to build a garage and do some things to make it a little bit more day to day livable for us.

But all in all, that's been an amazing transition.

Right.

Almost right when I needed them to happen.

Right.

It's just I felt like I needed to do more.

I needed to do more to help cult victims, but I couldn't figure out or pinpoint exactly what that was.

And when Andrew made that invitation to me, I'm like, this really would give me that opportunity to, you know, help provide this platform for other survivors.

And, and that kind of brings me to where I am today.

I.

I feel, you know, that that caregiver role is still there, but in a more virtual form.

Right.

I'm not physically caring for people and more mentally helping people and providing by.

By helping provide that platform and like I said, doing.

I've spoken to people, you know, offline, not on the air, basically private conversations with people that are transitioning out of a cult and giving them, you know, help and advice and, you know, reassuring them that there, you know, is no, there's.

That they don't have to be in a particular place at a particular time.

One young woman I was speaking to felt like, she's like, well, I don't know how to answer the question when people ask me, you know, what I believe.

And because she said, because I don't really know what I believe.

Right Now.

And I'm like, it's okay to answer that way.

And it's also okay to say, I don't want to talk about that right now, or I'm not comfortable with the subject.

I said, you can put any boundary in place that you want.

And I said.

And I said, and that is something, I think when you come out of a cult and you're in that cult mentality is that you get used to not having boundaries.

And you almost have to teach yourself that, oh, I can set up this boundary, and it's okay for me to say that.

And I said to her, I said, you don't have to answer any question you don't want to or you can answer what the truth is that I don't know.

I'm still just deconstructing my beliefs.

And spiritually, I don't know where I'm at right now.

And I think that a lot of times people think that they have to have good, clear answers, and sometimes the answer isn't clear.

Right.

Yeah, I think that's a great point, because I feel like we're so pressured.

Yeah, whatever.

To, like, have these answers that we don't have.

And I.

And I think that's a good point.

You.

You don't have to have all the answers.

You don't have to answer the question or.

Yeah, because I.

I had to set a boundary.

I'm like what they call a slow processor.

So when someone asked me a question, I thought I had to answer it right away, and I would just, like, blurt out something and it would get me in all sorts of trouble.

So now I've been able just to say, you know, I'm a slow processor.

I need to think about this for a little bit, and I'm going to get back to you.

So I think that's a great point.

And whatever aspect of your life is, you can set the boundary of what you want people to know and what you want to tell them and where you are in your life.

And that's okay.

Don't let anybody tell you that you got to be somewhere at a certain age, certain spot, certain time in your life.

Oh, 100%.

And I love that answer.

And I actually, my aunt is the one who taught me that answer because I tended to be a people pleaser for a long time coming out of my cult.

And I would say yes to things and then almost immediately regret it.

Yeah, I don't really want to do that.

Why did I say yes?

And then I felt obligated, like, well, I said, yes.

And now I have to do it.

And I.

And I've.

And I've gotten into the habit now where my go to response when people ask me a question that I don't know if I want to do it is, let me think about that and I'm going to get back to you because then I process it and I say, and I ask myself, step away.

And not with the pressure of that person stealing, standing in front of me, say, do I really want to commit to this?

And then I have to go with that and go with my heart and not go with just wanting to please people.

Do you really want to commit to this?

And I think as women in general, we tend to be people pleasers, and we tend to do that and say yes before we really have thought about it and a lot of times then regret it and go, oh, gosh, I really don't want to do that.

And now I have to.

And then you do it begrudgingly.

And that's never the way you want to really do something.

Right.

You don't want to do that.

That's never fun.

That's not good for anybody.

No, exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

You're not helping them and you're not helping you.

Because now you're doing it and you're kind of like, I don't really want to do this, but now I have to.

Because you obligated yourself.

And that giving yourself permission to step back and say, I need to think about that is.

It's an amazing.

It's so simple, but it gives you an amazing amount of freedom.

It does.

And I found.

I'm 62, and I found the older I get, the easier it is to do that.

Not just because I've learned to set that boundary, but I don't know, just something about getting older.

You're just like, I don't care.

What?

I don't care anymore.

Yes.

Oh, no.

Menopause.

Menopause makes you care a little less about what people think.

You're right.

Let them think what they want to think.

I don't.

I can't control that.

Exactly, exactly.

Well, Melanie, thank you so much for spending your time with me.

I loved our conversation, and I know our audience is going to get a lot of benefit whether you're wearing a cult or not.

Just lots of little pieces of wisdom here for anybody going through transitions or tough times or abusive relationships or anything like that.

But before we end our the conversation, Melody, do you have any parting words of wisdom for our listeners today?

I think that.

And I think I'm just going to reiterate.

Probably what I've already said throughout the interview is that whatever transition you may be going through, whether that's, you know, a leaving a cult, leaving an abusive relationship, being an empty nester, getting a divorce, any of these things, and during your transition time, give yourself permission to do it at whatever pace you're comfortable with and don't feel like you are tied or obligated to any timeline that even you set up for yourself or anybody else sets up for you.

Do it at a pace that you're comfortable with and that's okay.

You don't have to.

This isn't going to Rome wasn't built in a day.

And the healing process for all of these different transitions is going to come at whatever pace works for you.

And there is no clear answer for that.

That is going to be.

That is going to look different for everyone and that's okay.

Well, those are great words of wisdom.

Great words of wisdom to end our conversation on.

Thank you so much, Melody.

I appreciate it.

Oh, thank you for having me.