Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.

We return to Hawkins, where there are quarantine checkpoints, military surveillance, and the Party is committed to finding Vecna.

In this episode, we will discuss "The Turnbow Trap" and "Sorcerer".

Podcast referenced in this episode.

Have Toga Will Travel: Eleven's Heroic Journey

Foreign.

Welcome back to Kin Folklore.

We're deep into season five of Stranger Things.

And Hawkins has officially entered its meltdown.

Error.

Full meltdown complete.

Full meltdown.

The kids are running heist.

Holly is stepping into her hero.

Error.

She's out here.

Like, I'm gonna be Holly the heroic.

She's on.

She's ready.

Max is trapped inside a mind maze straight out of a horror movie.

And Steve Harrington is casually driving through the Upside down like he's looking for a shortcut.

I'm Andrea.

And I'm Paul.

And if you're going.

If you're joining us for the first time, we are cousins who live for breaking down the wildest corners of fantasy and sci fi.

And Stranger Things has given us everything.

Everything we need this season.

Chapters three and four turn the chaos all the way up.

We're talking monster hunts, military disasters, psychic warfare, and Will Byers unlocking powers he absolutely did not order from a catalog.

Today we're covering season five, chapters three and four, the Turnbow Trap.

To the full on invasion from Max wandering Henry's nightmare memories to a reveal that changes absolutely everything.

So if you haven't watched chapter four yet, hit pause, go back and watch it.

What are we doing here?

Watch it.

Actually watch it multiple times.

It's that good?

It's very good.

Oh, man.

And I'm so happy that we're like, referencing and talking about Max again.

Oh, my God.

She's back.

It's so great.

Our girl is back.

Our girl is back.

And with that, I want you to close your eyes and focus on your breathing.

Breathe in and out.

As you continue breathing, I want you to picture yourself on a beach.

The water is blue.

Blue like a Smurf.

And if that doesn't work, remember, Kin folklore will have adult content.

And no one is going to die for.

Ha.

Let's go.

Oh, man.

That is my.

I didn't realize I was going to enjoy Derek as much as I am.

I did think I did make mad references to him being Neville Longbottom.

And let's face it, the fate of the world rest in his hands in this plot.

I may have said I don't want any new characters.

I was wrong.

I was wrong.

Derek is great.

I love Derek.

I don't care what anyone.

I want a Derek T shirt.

He is.

He is what we need.

This season is heavy.

Yeah.

No, no.

This season is heavy.

There's too much going on.

Derek is.

Is giving us what we need.

I love it.

I love it.

And speaking of one of the Turnbows we'll start off with the Turnbow trap.

The gang stages a mission, a rescue scheme built entirely around Derek Turnbow's natural chaos.

They want to use Derek as bait to draw out a Demogorgon hunting him.

If they track it, they can find Vecna's location and rescue Holly.

After Erica goes full menace mode.

I mean like.

Poison pies.

I told you to eat your damn pie.

She told her.

She gave her a warning.

Tita got a freaking needle to the back.

Like, oh my God.

She does pro.

She keeps her promises.

So she kid.

They kidnapped the entire Turnbow family.

And it's a home alone style plan with all of the booby trapping they possibly can do.

And it goes well until.

Until it doesn't go well.

The Demogorgon shows up at the.

At the abandoned farm where Joyce and Erica, Will and Robin are hiding the family.

He starts off at the house.

They light his ass up.

He starts to run away and then doubles back.

I must man smelling.

How do you.

How do you know where the fuck Derek was?

It's crazy.

He just followed this in.

It's kind of wild.

Okay.

If he knew where Derek was because Derek had woken up and could see where they were, then why didn't Will also know right away that Derek was awake?

It's fair.

I have no.

I have no.

I have no answer.

After saving.

Their ass from the Demogorgon, like, like again, Will is in the mind of a scene through the eyes of a Demogorgon.

Demogorgon backs up, car hits him.

Will fall to the ground.

It's kind of wild.

Steve, Nancy, Jonathan and Dustin chase the devil Gorgon.

By literally driving through the Upside down with Steve's BMW.

They think they're going to get like the walls closing in on them.

It's crazy.

It looks like it gives you back to the future vibes.

Honestly, it's really, really wild that they did it that way.

Dustin discovers the fleshy wall surrounding the Upside down is a perfect circle.

The center point is the Hawkins lab.

After encountering a military unit and wrecking nearly all of them, torturing the surviving member, Akers, Elle infiltrates his mind and their weapon is hidden that she finds behind a door.

She believes the weapon to be someone like her and assumes it's Vecna.

Hopper and Elle plan to infiltrate the military base.

But Hop's lack of trust frustrates l a little bit.

We delved into that a little bit last episode.

This is still something that's developing.

And then at the Creel house, Vecna's mindscape.

Holly is living her best life.

I mean, best life, best life.

Like her parents didn't just get mash up.

Holly is living the life that Karen would live if she didn't have.

If she wasn't married to Ted and didn't have three kids plus the whole Byers family to take care of.

Word.

It's like.

It's giving home alone vibes again as she dances through the house cassette.

It's giving like grown up home alone vibes though.

I was like, this is how I would spend my Saturday if I had nothing to do.

Yes, totally, 100%.

I mean, it just gave me the shades of like.

I mean, I do spend my Saturday like that sometimes dancing to the house.

But it gave me like that vibe of when Kevin like realizes nobody's in the house and he turns the music up and he's having a blast and try to.

It's great.

It's good stuff.

She's listening to the Tiffany cassette Henry gave her on her afternoon alone.

And when someone comes to the door, she thinks it's.

She thinks it's Derek already.

She's like, Derek, if this is you, you little shit.

The note is actually from Henry telling her to do the very thing that he told her not to do before he left, which was going to the woods and meet him in a cave.

But it turns out it's actually Max.

And the episode ends with Max revealing she is trapped inside Henry's mindscape also.

And Holly is now trapped inside it too.

Episode four, the Sorcerer.

Or I should say chapter four.

Sorcerer.

Episode four begins with the military rounding up children.

You know, typical stranger things.

Round up all the children, throw them in buses, take them to like some secure location.

Turns out Dr. K wants to use them as bait for L. Even though L is in the Upside Down.

L has nothing to do with this.

The military intelligence is not.

Not doing its job here in the mindscape.

Max explains that she's been wandering Henry's memories for months.

The massacre Hawkins Lab is where she woke up when El bought her back to life.

Although she doesn't know that it's El who brought her back to life.

Then she sees her memories where she appears Billy her death.

And she's basically telling Holly that she's trapped in this world that's essentially a prison.

Holly names the world Kamazots, tying it directly to the book.

A Wrinkle in Time.

Meanwhile, back in Hawkins.

Because you know, they gotta have a plan, right?

They can't they can't wait.

They can't wait and see.

For anything to play out, they got to have a plan.

So they launch their great escape plan.

They're going to use dipshit Derek, who's going to be delightful Derek.

To go into the base where they're holding the children.

They're going to dig a tunnel.

Well, they're not digging a full tunnel.

One of the.

The tunnels goes under there.

But they're going to dig a hole in the bathroom to sneak up to the barracks and smuggle out the children that had been targeted by Henry out of the barracks so that they can.

We're going to pray that our real armed forces are way better at securing locations than these fictitious armed forces, because the fact that there is no one that has secured these tunnels.

There's no fucking military presence under underground.

Making sure no one can pass through these tunnels is deeply concerning for their competency.

I don't think they know the tunnels are there.

It's insane.

How do they not know?

Anyway, I. I have.

I don't know what to say.

I honestly don't know what to say.

The military, I'm not impressed.

So Derek runs the con perfectly.

As delightful Derek.

Like, just smacking up people as he's like, yo, go, go.

It was.

It was very amusing.

Is it the most delightful thing for him to do?

No, no, no.

Dip.

Dip.

Derek is still in there, but, you know, he's trying.

He's.

He's.

He's using his.

His chaos to work on the side of good.

So proving further that the military ain't.

Hopper and Eleven break into the base in the Upside Down.

They discover that behind the hidden door is Zint Vecna.

It's actually El's lost sister, Kali.

Oh, you hear that sound?

You hear that sound?

Big surprise.

That's.

That's.

That's us taking a victory lap about how important the lost sister is.

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's.

That.

That's that sound.

You right there.

Can't wait to talk about this.

No, I'm gonna wait till I'm.

We're done with this summary because I have some things to say to some of y' all who sent us notes about how much you hated back in Hawkins.

The Demogorgon surge out of the Upside down and massacre the military.

And then Vecna comes out, and he needs to show off his new CrossFit body.

The waist snatch like been doing.

He's been focusing a little bit too much on one arm for arm day because one arm is smaller than the Other.

You gotta do Pilates.

You gotta.

Before you start back.

But Vecna, he's been eating some protein.

He's been resting.

All of that.

He looks.

He knew.

He looks brand new.

He says some words to Will about how Will was weak.

Yada, yada, yada.

I'm not.

We'll talk about that more later because it's all.

And the point is, Will then taps into memories of his childhood when he feels most loved.

And he.

He unleashes the powers we knew that he had.

And kills all of the Demogorgon, saving the following people.

Mike, Robin, and probably Murray.

Definitely Lucas was done.

So.

Lucas was done done there.

I.

Before the show came out, I saw many people freaking out about the.

That clip from the trailer of Lucas in the tunnels with a Demogorgon on each side.

And they were like, it don't look good for our brother.

He's fine.

His friend got him.

Yeah, yeah, he's good.

Somebody go check on Mike, though, because he's like, out here, like, you know, he's got a thing for superheroes.

So, like, it's like everybody's going crazy.

He's like, don't do it.

Stop, stop, stop.

I'm not doing this with you.

I'm really.

Nothing was so funny.

I'm good to my.

Somebody posted like, Will wanted Mike so bad, he became lucky.

Okay, moving along.

I'm trying to do Derek's mindfulness exercise right now because I honestly can't deal with the discourse online.

Honestly can't deal with it.

All right, so.

He has become the sorcerer.

But before we get to talking about all of that, let's pour one out.

Begrudgingly.

Begrudgingly.

Pouring one out for Lieutenant Colonel Sullivan.

Oh, God.

Torturer of Owens.

So sad.

Do we really care?

Like, I feel like we should just crack the bottle.

You know what?

There should be a new People suck.

We're going to hail our queen on Karen Wheeler and just crash a bottle.

Karen, walk him down, Wheeler.

Karen, walk him down, Wheeler, and just fucking crack a bottle.

Like, that's it.

That's all.

Now we will force them out because they were just following orders and doing the best they could.

For every single soldier in the Mac Z base, they fought the best they could.

They were warned by dipshit Derek that his men weren't going to be able to do shit they wish.

They smack up the boy in the back of his head.

I don't know why they did that, but he was right.

And they all died.

And that's how it went.

But nonetheless, we Will pour some out for every single soldier at the maxi base.

This goes out to all our fallen homies.

Yo, liquor.

Don't let the chin get like that, y'.

All.

Okay.

All right.

That was enough.

We don't need to pour anymore.

Don't spill any more liquor.

These are very light episodes in comparison to where we've come, which makes me very concerned for the back half of this season, because these first two episodes, these first four, we.

There's not been a lot to worry about.

We probably should have stocked up on Black Friday liquor for the rest of the season.

So let's.

I mean, we're gonna have to take this thing in.

Beats.

There's a lot going on in these episodes.

I want to start in a place that I think is, you know, one of our favorite characters.

Minor character in the sense that he's not part of all the action, but major in the sense that he was once a safe space for these kids to explore their curiosity.

Very good at teaching science, quite obviously, because they're math and science and all these things, because these kids are able to.

Especially Dustin, and all of them really able to figure things out quite easily.

Let's talk about Mr. Clark.

His wormhole explanation.

We know the fleeing acrobat explanation set.

This all got them to understand other dimensions really well.

So now he's bringing in this new understanding about wormholes.

I thought it was.

I really enjoyed where this.

Where this went.

I thought it was.

It was great.

When, you know, Mr. Clark, he starts off and he starts talking about the Einstein Rosen bridge.

So he immediately calls it a bridge, which is going to be fascinating based on what we know coming with one of the episode titles before.

And then he goes into.

It's commonly known as a wormhole, as often depicted in our hourglass shape, such as this.

There's an image on the board.

While the existence of wormholes is entirely theoretical, like the flea and the acrobat situation, they have captured the fascination of scientists and science fiction writers alike, including the duffers.

Can anyone tell me why that is?

Eddie doesn't want to call on our girl Erica, because quite obviously she's probably answering all the questions, and then eventually she does.

To which Erica says why that is.

And we go into this whole kind of, like, setup.

I think it's a quick scene, but I think a setup for what is coming.

What are your thoughts about the wormhole?

About how it's introduced?

About what they're kind of the tracks that we see kind of being laid in this particular moment.

A wormhole is a theoretical tunnel.

Right.

And it brings two points equal, equidistant to each other, eliminating essentially the space to travel in between.

So that could allow for a lot of stuff, but in particular, I'm upset about the fact that it allows.

It could allow for time travel.

Okay, I'm just gonna be honest about it.

I've been saying I don't want any.

Time stuff by the time stuff.

It seems very clear to me that that's where this is leading.

As soon as I saw what was on the board behind this man, I groaned.

Because it allows for you to travel possibly between dimensions, possibly between planets, possibly through time.

And so I find it.

I'm not excited, let me just put it that way.

But I will say is, he does also say what the weaknesses are, which is that.

They'Re unstable.

And so I think what we can assume from this episode is that with his 12 children that he is snatching, Vecna is planning to create a wormhole for whatever reason.

We don't know what the reason is, and this is all speculation.

We have not seen Dion Volume 1.

So I just want to be really clear.

I know some people, some podcasters got screeners for.

I don't think anyone got screeners for volume two yet, but we didn't get any screeners.

So we're just speculating.

I think we can assume that Vecna is trying to build some kind of wormhole with the.

With the.

Powered by the 12 children that he's snatching up.

But Mr. Clark gave us the framework for undermining that because he's telling us it's unstable, which means possibly if you remove one child from the plan, if you, you know, create a weakness in some part of the wormhole.

So I think that this is very Stranger things type setup for what is going to be at least a big part of, I would say, the next three episodes.

I don't know that this is necessarily the end game story here.

I'm curious about how this is going to play out.

If we will actually see some time travel, if they're going to be able to kind of thwart any plans that Vecna has.

But the.

What he drew on the board and what will draws, paints rather, after their encounter with the Demogorgon, are essentially almost like the same.

So I think.

I think that's where we're heading with this.

Yeah.

And I think to your point about time travel and time and the 12 kids, I think we could start getting into the 12 points on a clock.

We all know that Vecna loves clocks, and these guys love Back to the Future, which centers around a clock and a clock tower.

So there's a lot of.

There's a lot of time insinuations, which plays into the memory stuff that we've talked about.

I think that we're going to see something that has to do with.

With.

With time, for sure.

Well, there's also the.

The number 12 has other significance, but we're going to talk about that later in the spoiler section.

I want to go to a lighter subject.

As a person who may put a monkey wrench talk about one thing in the instability.

Let's talk about pure chaos.

Let's talk about Derek Turnbox.

Go Derek Turnbow right away, right out the gate.

First of all, finding out that that's Tina's brother is wild.

Like.

Okay, we need to take a moment for this.

The most shocking thing revealed in both episodes was not that Will has powers, not that Kali slash 8 is still kicking around and his return is it.

Tina is white.

Didn't see that coming.

All this time, I thought Tina was one of the little black girls behind Erica in season three.

The way.

The way that Lucas describes Tina.

I thought you said that Tina was evil.

I thought you said she was mean.

Oh, she's not mean.

She's a villain.

Like, would murder your puppies for their coat villain.

He basically describes Krillin Deville.

He's like, listen, that's it.

Oh, God, that's great.

So what.

What do we think about.

I mean, I thought that Derek, I really.

I love the way that they introduce him.

I love the way that he's.

His irreverence.

The thing about Derek is he is a bully, right?

He sucks.

Like, he's.

He.

He is.

All the kids hate him.

He bullies Holly.

Holly hates him a lot.

But then instead of recontextualizing his bullying.

The way they tried to do with Billy, they just make the whole thing a joke.

Like, he's dip Derek to everybody.

Like, he's mean to everybody.

He's.

It's just so good.

And the reason it's so funny is because he has the most bizarre lines ever written in this series.

Like.

Like, yeah, but Joyce is like, when Joyce is trying to negotiate with him and he.

She's like, do you know who I am?

An evil child kidnapper.

Oh, my God.

And then Joyce.

Joyce is like, so insulted.

I'm just a mom.

It just.

It's so good.

And the part where, like.

I'm sorry.

The part where the military is like, our.

That's why we're here, is why we have these.

Consider protective.

No disrespect, sir, but I've seen what's coming, and you're making it do shit.

He's just.

I. I thoroughly enjoy Dipshik.

Yeah.

Derek, Like, I just love him.

He's.

He's funny.

Yes.

I would like for him not to bully Holly anymore.

I'm not.

I'm not condoning bullying.

I just think that his character is pure chaos, and they honestly need a little levity in this.

No, they're taking.

It's.

It's.

It's getting.

It's getting super heavy, and they needed.

They needed something to break it up.

I did have a question for you, though, about Derek.

Did you have his GI Joe lunchbox when you were a kid?

GI Joe lunchbox?

I did.

I did.

I was like, I'm pretty sure Paul had that.

100% had that lunchbox.

I didn't.

I didn't think you were gonna.

I saw it, and I was like, oh, no.

I saw.

I saw the lunchbox, and I'm like, I seen that lunchbox.

100% GI Joe lunchbox.

I was like, holy.

Like, they nailed that.

They absolutely nailed that.

I was.

I was like, that is amazing.

I used to.

I used to watch that damn cartoon after, like, school.

Like, you know, you have, like, the after school program.

They would have us.

They would turn that on, and we would.

We would watch it.

That and like, he man.

Masters of the universe were back to back.

He man.

I was gonna say.

And the.

The Barbie cartoon used to be on, I think, right before that.

Exactly.

No.

100.

Yeah.

So I used to watch, like, Shira.

Like, it was like, Barbie, Shira.

G.I.

joe.

That was the lineup, and.

It was so good.

Like, I. I used to love watching those.

I.

The Barbie show.

I could miss.

Yeah, I could miss that one, but I could not miss my Shira.

Like, that was going to be a part.

That's the thing I think this show does so great is it brings back those memories.

Like, because I was thinking about that as we were, like, prepping.

I was like, oh, wow.

All those references.

And even the.

Even the freaking, like, tape cassette box that Holly gets is like, I've seen one of those before.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's like, oh, yeah, this is great.

You know, a lot of people had memories from episode.

One when Karen's pouring the bubble bath into the bath they said their grandmothers use.

I think it's Avon's bubble bath.

I don't know.

I Didn't recognize it because I lived in an Olay household, so we didn't have any Avon products.

But.

But a lot of people noted that.

That it was like, oh, my gosh, I remember my grandmother having that in her bathroom.

So they did.

They did good, really good prop work.

But when I saw.

I. I was typing the outline and I was like, bold question mark.

I did that lunchbox 100%.

I did finish it up with Derek.

Robin's deadpan reaction.

Oh, my God.

She goes, what?

Oh, good.

I. Robin's reaction is, it's so funny because Erica's used to his bullshit.

So Erica does not react to anything he says in any meaningful way other than to, like, yell back at him.

Robin is completely shocked.

She's like, who is this kid?

Because he's probably like.

If you think about it, most of the kids outside of, like, the bully from high school or the.

Most of these kids have been pretty well behaved kids.

Like, they've done their own shit.

They've done, but they've been, like, pretty.

Like, this is like a whole new character type.

They're like, I gotta give them their props.

Every time you think, oh, they can't, like, upgrade a character or introduce a new character, it's the end.

They gotta start wrapping things up.

They throw something else in there that you're just like, oh, yeah, this is fucking memorable and iconic.

This is fucking.

The.

Ha ha ha ha.

That shit is fucking.

Wait, what.

What about your favorite line?

My favorite one?

Tell me.

You said.

You said it might be your favorite line of Stranger Things of all time.

Yeah, it was good.

I wy.

I thought that was it.

The hahaha.

Oh, no, it is my.

No, no, I know exactly who it is.

Oh, my favorite line.

Yes.

It's like, Ashley Klein is a snitch.

Yo.

He goes from full meditation to like, yo, go, go, go, go.

Ashley Glad is a snitch, slams the door.

Yo, that is great.

It's great.

It's really.

It's really, really, really good.

Okay, we've.

We've had enough fun.

We got to talk about the heavy stuff.

So let's talk.

Let's talk about Ellen Hopper and.

And.

And then we'll.

We'll circle back to what's going on with Holly.

But let's.

Let's talk about Ellen Hopper and their big moments this episode.

These two episodes.

Yeah.

Can I tell you that when.

When Hopper said, I love you, Jane, I was.

I was done.

Done.

I was like, I cannot.

I was starting to get angry.

Like, I cannot believe that they're going to do this to us.

In episode four.

I was sure Hopper was.

Was done.

I was sure that was the end.

And of course, it was a fake out.

So now I feel like Hopper's safe because I don't think you can do a.

You.

You can't kill a person, bring them back to life, then do it another.

Kill them again.

Yeah, I thought.

I thought he was a goner.

Yeah, I just.

I thought that their dialogue, the thank you for teaching me and trusting me.

Heartbreaking.

But then also, when Hopper.

When Hopper said her I love you, Jane, I was like, this is what.

This is what we're here for.

The.

The.

The mystery, the magic, all that stuff is really great, but the characters and their relationships is the reason that the stakes are so high.

Because you're in that moment, you're like, ella's about to lose essentially everything, 100%, and she just got her dad back.

So it just.

It.

They got me.

They got me.

They got a good one on me.

It's the choice to call her Jane instead of Elle that does it, because it not only, like, let's be honest, like, Elle is, like, short for 11 the boys came up with.

It's not her actual name that she was gonna have.

And the fact.

The fact that he, when given the choice to give her a name, used the name that her mother wanted to give her and put inside the articles and stuff, like, trying to get her kid back and say, okay, we'll name her Jane Hopper.

It's actually, like, really powerful.

And I think, like, it just speaks to, like, his love of her and, like, who she is.

And it was.

Yeah, what she said was beautiful, too.

I. I love their.

I love their stuff.

This even, like, before we get to this episode where she's cleaning his wound and he.

He's all like, how did you learn to do this?

And she's like, Max, you know, like.

And she gives him, like, the walkthrough of what Max taught her.

And just, like, everything, like, leading up to this, there's this, like, kind of, like, process of, again, trust.

Like, the trust that we've been talking about this whole run of episodes is like, he's learning to, like, trust her to be who she is, because, let's face it, Elle has really, since coming through what she did inside the.

What I.

You know, the Nina project and coming out, she has earned that.

I mean, she.

In a lot of ways, she is a whole new, like, kind of version of herself.

And I think that Hopper's still relating to her in some ways, because he was in Russia during all that as the old version of herself.

Even though he's giving more room, there's more room to be given.

So I'm glad that they.

They had that moment.

And it's very fascinating what happens on the end of that.

I don't understand what his plan was.

I don't know what he.

So this whole time, your plan was.

He was.

He was gonna blow up Vecna?

Like, I don't.

I don't understand.

I'm.

I was like, I don't.

And this is what I was talking about in our last episode, which is that Elle and Will are the experts.

They have the most experience with both this villain and with the upside down.

So why Hopper thought that he was gonna blow Vecna up.

Yeah.

Is.

Is crazy.

They already tried that.

I don't, like, lit him on fire, blew him up, pushed him out a window, like in.

I don't understand.

I mean, like.

L pushed him out to another dimension as it.

In.

In his mind, while they were also battling in the real world.

Like, how did he think blowing him up was gonna be?

Blowing him up was not gonna work.

Like, that was not gonna be a thing that worked.

So it's crazy.

I don't know.

I don't get it.

I think that Hopper, at the end of the day, just refuses to do.

To lose another daughter.

He's just not gonna do it.

He's gonna take whatever extreme measures he can to make sure that he doesn't lose L again, because he's been separated from her multiple times at this point.

And so I think that's what it kind of demonstrates.

But once again, Hopper workshops this point, and they.

They hit on that, too.

And I think.

I think, like, it's really powerful when he actually goes into the story about Sarah and to really go into, like, what it means, and she gets it right away, or you think, like, I'm not gonna.

She doesn't Fully taken.

I think l. That he's trying to.

She does take in.

He's trying to protect her, but she also interprets it.

You don't think I'm gonna win.

And that's, like, her takeaway, which hits back to what you were saying, that she's so eager to have this battle that he's.

That that's where her brain goes right away.

And I think we got to keep an eye on that because she's really, really pushing for it.

And I. I think.

I think Elle.

I think El also has this attitude that it's up to her and her alone.

And it's not.

There's a whole team of people who actually can do quite a bit of damage.

To Vecna's plans.

Now, can any of them fight him?

You know, one to one?

No.

I mean, now Will probably.

Well, I don't know.

Maybe Will can, but.

But they can help her.

And I don't think she always sees it that way.

I think she often tries to do things on her own.

She's a little bit of a lone wolf, and that's probably from spending so much time in the lab by herself.

Who'S like, yeah, right, right.

El spent five years in that lab by herself, is the only kid before she found friends.

And now at the end of this episode, she has two powered up allies.

Well, we don't know if Kali is friendly.

We have to assume, you know, we don't.

We don't really know what the military's been doing to Kali, but we.

We end this.

This volume one ends with having three superheroes.

Three is better than one.

Better than one.

And it really hits to that.

That theory that's been floating around.

You know, it just.

The wound is so.

The.

The.

The.

The wound is so freaking fresh from all of the freaking.

L plus R equals J.

Like shit from Game of Thrones.

Like, it just.

It hurts my soul a little bit, like, when I see these kind of theories, like, with the rolling of the dice, that was like the 20.

And so it's like, you know, 11 plus 8 plus 1 equals the 20 to defeat Vecna.

But it does feel like having three.

It's like.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

I've been thinking a lot about, like, having a three.

What that means to be able to try to defeat them is it is the one that Will can harness Vecna's powers is the one that Henry Krill will somehow be able to, like, turn.

Vecna good by them traveling through his mindscape or not Vecna good, but, like, kind of overcome the evil of Vecna inside of himself.

I haven't really thought that much about it because I don't think we have enough information.

So.

Yeah, I just don't.

I don't.

We don't know.

What.

Where Kali's been.

Where her state of.

What her state of mind is.

Is she in good shape?

Did the military strip her powers?

We don't really know what's going on with her and with Will.

From what we've seen in interviews, Will's power is entirely channeled from Vecna.

Yeah.

So.

But I don't think they've quite fully told that story.

I think they've done a good job of saying that proximity matters.

He's like a receptor.

But I don't think that.

I think that when you power up a character who was otherwise normal and then you give them power, you have to then test the limits of that power on screen.

So I think they will do that.

But I. I'm not getting.

I'm not.

I'm trying not to overthink the roles that Will.

Kali, and El will have.

As a trio, because I. I prefer to just look at Will and El separately, based on what we know about them as characters and based on what we understand about how power works in.

Within this universe.

So what we learned from Will gaining his powers.

Was that he was able to do that through the same process that Elle was able to power up and fight Vecna and also bring Max back to life, which was through accessing her happy memories.

Yeah.

So beyond that, we don't know.

We also don't know if Kali knows has that information yet.

Right.

When we last saw her, she was telling El to use her memories.

That made her angry.

I agree.

So I haven't really thought, like, what the three of them together can means.

Thematically.

I'm not there yet.

I think we need more information.

I'm a little.

And we can talk more in the spoilery section about.

I'm a little.

I have concerns about Will and L.

Arc's totally.

But, like, I haven't really thought through the three of them together in that meaningful way other than to be like, fuck, yeah.

I think I'm with the fuck yeah.

What I want to see in the second half is I don't think Kali's back.

And I think this is why I always said that the Lost Sister episode and we always talk about that was important.

I don't think she's back because.

She has a role to maybe even face to face, fighting Vecna that way.

I think she's back to.

To empower and position the last part of L's mission, in my opinion, the last part of what Elle's gonna do and whatever that is.

I definitely think that Kali would be more like, hey, I'm here to help Elle to whatever piece of information and.

Or things she needs to.

To do the next step in, like, what it's going to take.

And maybe some of that will be slowing her down from running headlong into this challenge and not thinking through how she's going to really approach It.

Yeah, I, I don't.

I think we'll have to see.

I. I think if Kali's not here to fight, then.

That in some ways will be a miscalculation in terms of.

Because like.

So I think Kali's only real benefit to the story at this point, this late in the game.

I think if they wanted Kali to be the type of character that continued to help El grow in a certain way, then they should have brought her back in season three or four.

I think at this point I'm most interested in how Kali can contribute to defeating Vecna.

But that's like my personal preference.

I prefer not to continue to go down the path of El's.

I think we've done almost too much else.

Self discovery at this point.

Like, I'm.

I'm actually fine if, if there's no.

There's no more of that.

Like, what I'm curious about is what's Kali's relationship to Henry Creel?

I would love to see that because my.

I've.

I've been really bullish about my theory that Henry approached Kali first before El.

I just want, at this point, selfishly, I kind of want that confirmed.

I just found that their conversation and how.

How they both tried to tell El to use her powers was too similar for coincidence.

I, like Lucas, do not believe in coincidences.

So that for me personally, that's a.

Like, if they don't answer that, I actually think it's fine.

Story wise.

I don't think it.

The story hinges on that, but I would love to know personally, does she have a relationship to.

Henry in any way?

And I think the fastest route to get her on board is to.

Is yes, she has won.

Yeah, I think.

I think that's part of how she will serve the fight, though I don't necessarily.

And I think her powers will come into play for sure.

But I definitely think that like, like kind of what we've been talking about for a while on the pod is just like kind of like the heroine's journey, the hero's journey, the story arc.

And I kept.

We kept talking about like that and you and I have talked offline and online about the.

The assistance from the goddess at the end of like the return.

And the reality of it is, is that I think like those pieces of information that El doesn't have about Henry, about the context, about all of that, it's kind of what I'm getting at is like where I see Kali really coming into.

To play along with her powers is giving that information for that final ascension on El's mission of hopefully defeating Vecna, we'll see how the story ends.

But what I think will eventually end with her defeating like Vecna in some kind of way, whether that be through losing her powers like we've spoken about before, sacrificing herself.

Maybe not.

I hope not.

That's not really what I want to see or some other way for her doing it and then coming on there.

Maybe that's it.

But I do think Kali serves that purpose of coming back into the story from empowering her in the first place, to learn new things about her powers at first time out of the lab and then at the end bringing her back to this place of like, okay, this is how you're going to use what I understand about Henry and my powers and all these things.

And maybe she was the first person that Henry tried to get to leave the lab to basically use this information to.

To defeat Vecna.

I think that's where this is for me.

It feels like it's heading that way.

I would be surprised if she doesn't play some part in empowering her through some level of information that like, almost like the same kind of role as like the freaking.

In Atla, the turtle that provides him with the information on how he can defeat Ozai.

I'm not saying that that won't mean Kali won't fight.

I'm just saying that Els needs this final piece of information to beat the actual Big Bad.

In my opinion.

I think what.

What's likely is in.

In typical Stranger Things fashion.

Pieces of information that will all contribute to this will come from different places.

And so I also.

I think a lot of that information is going to come from Max and Holly or Max or Holly.

I.

We don't really know.

We like.

I kind of like the team up there, but we're not really sure how that's going to play out.

But the fact that Max is rooting around in Henry's memories and the fact that we know how important memories are to this story.

Max has traveled through.

One of Henry's worst memories.

And all of these memories that are like, of him doing horrible things and she's seen one snippet of what could possibly be a good memory, which is the.

And I. I think that's a curious thing to show.

And so what if Max and.

Or Holly can unearth more memories that are positive now that I don't.

I don't want to talk too much about the.

That play.

Yeah, because.

Some of it is an Easter egg for the first shadow play.

So we'll talk about that in the spoiler section.

So it's the same date that Will went missing.

Just know, 20 plus years in the past.

So I think that's significant.

But I think there's going to be a combination of things that come together to help defeat vna.

I'm not really.

Super worried about vna.

I'm more worried about the Mind Flare.

And so I have.

I. I think.

Honestly, this is.

This is crazy speculation, but I. I actually kind of think that they might have to pull this off in some way.

I think that they have to turn Vecna and fight the Mind Flayer.

And so I think that, like, what we could see in episodes Volume two, which is episodes five, six and seven, is that turn.

And then episode eight, the finale, would be.

Other.

Isolating the Mind Flayer to.

To its own dimension and closing the gate for good.

Or.

Eliminating the Mind Flayer and Vecna at the same time.

And I also think that.

I think it's gonna be like a real group effort.

We're gonna need all three of our powered up people, plus Max, plus maybe Holly, plus maybe the other kids.

Right.

You're gonna have.

You know, the story that they're telling us here is it Will, by being connected to the hive mind, got powers.

We don't know how those powers came to be at this point, why they're.

Why they're manifesting now.

Is that just internally for Will or something else happening here?

But, but it's possible we could end up with will plus 12 kids.

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

I agree that the kids could play.

It could play a part.

That the kids that they're taking in could.

Could definitely play a part.

And I agree with.

Yeah, I think, I think it's going to be a collective effort.

I don't think there's any one person.

Yeah.

Elle by herself.

And I think they.

They're setting that up.

I think Lucas is seeing it very clearly when he says the whole thing about Elle's amazing, but she's going to need all of us, the whole party.

Yeah, he's like pleading to Max, but I think it's also for us to understand that this is going to be a fight that's going to take everybody.

And I think, like, yeah, I agree I totally agree with that.

I almost would wonder, too, at this point.

I mean, I know that they've been kind of.

Leading up to Elle fighting the big bad, but I also kind of feel like Will taking out Vecna would also be satisfying.

I mean, he.

He was the one who he kidnapped, so it would be sad.

I think, definitely for Will, it'd be something like some.

There'd be a level of satisfaction, in my opinion.

I like that, too.

I think they'll play off of some of the things that they've been laying the tracks for.

Like, we.

Like, we've been talking about, like, with Kali's name and its meaning.

I. I'm interested to see if they lean into that a little bit.

I think that would be interesting since we were talking about Kali.

And just for our audience that doesn't know, it's like, that's in Hinduism, the goddess of liberation and also destruction.

And so there's like.

And one of the most powerful goddesses in that, in that particular faith.

So I think, like, it'd be interesting to see if they could lean into that.

I don't know that they will maybe just do symbolism.

I don't think they have to go deep into, like, another, like, kind of storyline, but it'd be interesting to see, like, if somehow, some way, it's represented inside of, like, the actions that she takes to be able with her powers to help them.

Because she is creating quite a bunch of, like, I mean, her having illusions with someone who's like, where people needing to get into people's minds is a fascinating power for them to have at their disposal right now.

So I think that is really, really cool.

Let's talk a little bit about Will and this big moment that he had.

Yeah.

And how they laid the groundwork for that.

So we talked in our previous episode about Robin and the Robin and Will team up.

How do you.

How do you feel about how that all played out?

I really liked it.

I really.

I really liked it because on multiple levels.

I'll start with just, you know, Will's flirting with Mike in that moment.

As Mike first says to him, hey, we're going to need somebody with superpowers, you know, up here.

And Mike kind of, like, intuitively, like, suggests that maybe he's insightful in that moment.

Like, well, your mom's not that big.

Like, were you controlling the Demogorgon, like, or was the Demogorgon or you inside the Demogorgon just observing?

Because your mom probably didn't stop the Demogorgon.

Right.

And so he's starting to insinuate you may have powers.

And I think in that moment, you're starting to see all the groundwork that they laid from him seeing through the Demogorgon's eyes when he goes in against the military, seeing again when they're about to attack.

Them in the barn.

And then his explanation around being able to see through Vecna's eyes who he's taking and the kids he's taking, all that starts to really transpire.

And then he's out.

As Mike is giving him this little piece of information.

He is flirting with Mike.

And I think Robin sees kind of like Mike's reaction to that and walking away and how it is.

And it triggers something in Robin to say.

Something that has nothing to do with the powers but has everything to do with what will unlock them is that he has to really start, you know, through her own experience, not look for the outside validation or the answer in somebody else that being himself is.

Is really within him and that it, you know, stop.

She had to stop being so scared of who she really was.

And I thought that that had multiple layers of meaning.

Who he really is in how he identifies in his sexual orientation, who he really is for how he sees himself inside of this group of friends, who he really is inside of this community that has named him a zombie boy.

But ultimately also on all those layers, things that he couldn't communicate to Jonathan in that touching scene the season before, coming to terms with who he really is as far as his ability to connect and create and to manipulate these powers that he has connection to.

And he's been able to do it in other ways.

It doesn't just play out for what we see in this season.

I think it also plays out through him being able to use his drawing skills to draw out the things that he saw when he was in the.

In the Spy, and all the things to painting when he's in California, the things and the information about who the party is, who everybody is, these are all things that we see little pieces of in Will, but we've never seen him fully own.

And in that moment, with what she's able to say and then that all coming back to him, he really owns it.

And going specifically back to the Spy, which they reference as an episode that we should watch.

I thought it was you and I talked about this a little bit.

I also think that it was immensely cool that the positive memories that we referenced earlier in this episode are all the positive memories that the people who were around him in that episode were Saying what Mike said, what Joyce said, what Jonathan said.

And I think that is.

It was a beautiful scene.

It's a, it's a coming of age story, as you said, where self realization and self actualization and realizing and answering the question, do you know who you are?

Is a central theme.

And I thought it was beautiful.

I think more than just him having powers, all of that culminating in that way was beautiful.

And they've been building on this memory piece since season one.

So I think it's one of the few things that I felt.

It's one of their biggest payoffs of all the work they've put in to this show in this story.

And I think it was beautiful.

And I just want to read what Robin said because I was blown away, honestly, by this writing.

Like I.

And I complained to you offline that the, the dialogue has been clunky in a lot of scenes in this season so far.

But this was not.

This was beautiful.

What, what she says.

And I'm just going to read the last part of it.

I was looking for answers in somebody else, but I had all the answers.

I just need to stop being so goddamn scared.

Scared of who I really was.

Once I did that.

Oh, I felt so free.

It's like I could fly.

That's beautiful.

Like, I want every young person who gets stressed about how many people like their Instagram photo or how many.

How much validation they get when people, you know, double tap on a video of them and say, you know, I.

Or leave a comment on their social media.

I want them to be able to say that validation is great and it's, it's affirming in a lot of ways, but it's not the answer.

The answers are something we already have have within ourselves there.

It's looking at yourself very clearly and seeing who you are, the whole you, not just the piece of you that you show the world, but the whole you, all of you.

And loving it equally.

I think that is.

Is such a beautiful idea.

And it's one of the.

One of the things I love about this show is those rich ideas are scattered throughout the weirdness, the, like, the quirkiness, the comedy.

But we don't usually get them this early in the season.

So I'm like bracing for what comes next because I was like, this was, this was a finale monologue.

Yeah.

Robin could have said this in the finale and I would have been like, that's deep.

So having it mid season, in the mid sort of mid season finale, phenomenal writing.

I, I loved the way this paid Off.

These are not the powers I thought Will would have.

Yeah.

But I'm kind of happy I'm wrong.

Like, I, I don't care.

I don't want.

I don't care that the ideas that I had for Will are not completely right because I thought that the way that they built this up and then revealed it was absolutely beautiful.

And I can't wait to see.

I can't wait for him and Elle to be on screen together again.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think that's why I think like, it's their, their story arcs parallel each other so much.

Right.

Like when you think about like Robin saying what she says to Will.

Happens like, like I, like, I feel like the stories are happening like really close to each other.

It happens almost the same way that Papa says to Elle that she would need to fly.

And these ideas around flying and ascension are really, really close to like what I like I was.

And I, and I said I would reference this I wanted to.

Is like, there's a.

If anyone's interested in like some of the stuff we've been talking about with the hero's journey, there's this podcast that I listened to recently called have Toga.

Will travel with these phenomenal, like, you know, PhDs that like they study story all the time.

I really enjoyed their conversation and I can even link it inside of our show.

Notes about story and about Elle's story, about Stranger things, about the hero's journey and heroine's journey and about Lehman's.

Lehman's hero's journey.

And one of the stages in that journey is ascension.

And I just found that like this idea that both of them will have to.

That they could have that feeling if not literally flying, which we're seeing El almost literally fly.

That feeling of flying by, like reaching their full potential of their gifts is.

Is part of that.

I feel like that ascension stage of we're getting closer to that ascension stage.

And I just think it's like coming out of the rebirth of where they.

They've come from.

And I just think it's beautiful.

I think the parallels in their stories are beautiful.

Even though they have different powers and they have different connections to this story, I'm really looking forward to how they conclude this story with the two of them.

Even if it's heart wrenching or painful or happy, whatever it lands.

I think the way that they've gotten to these points and drawing these parallels has been really phenomenal in their journeys.

And like you said, this was a great payoff.

It was Will's connection to that.

I felt just as strong as when I saw, you know.

L come out of this situation.

Like, I think that's what I'm worried about for Will is Elle came out empowered out of the Nina project and brought down a fucking helicopter and then went to fight Vecna and then, like, lost that fight and had.

So I think, like, there's this kind of, like, I don't think we have enough time for that to happen, but I do think, like, there's a way where you start to, you know, you get these strong powers and, like, maybe you overplay your hand.

Let's see.

Let's.

Hopefully they don't.

Hopefully these two balance it out.

You know, since we've.

We've talked about Ellen Will so much, let's just give some of the other characters who had big, big moments some of their due.

Steve Harrington.

Okay, come to the front.

Come to the front.

Steve Harrington.

Come to the front of the conversation.

If you're listening, I would like you to.

To lock in.

Just because Dustin put a hole in the top of your vehicle doesn't mean that you trash the vehicle that your parents bought you in the Upside Down.

Now, what are you going to tell your parents about your car?

Okay, your car is in the Upside down.

Your car is crashed into a flesh wall in the Upside Down.

What do you think is going to happen to the car, Steve?

Also, Nancy Wheeler.

Please don't you come up to the front next.

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have a walk.

Still encourage Steve to do reckless shit.

Okay.

Dustin and Jonathan were both like, we're gonna die.

We're gonna die.

We're gonna die, we're gonna die.

Here's Nancy doing her.

Her, like, meme dark.

Kermit, do it.

No question.

No, it was awesome.

I'm glad.

I thought it was a cool scene.

We've seen parts of it in the second trailer that they dropped, but that was really cool.

But I was like, I thought we were beyond.

I thought we were going to workshop our ideas from now on.

You guys have been doing so good.

You know what you just.

You know what you just did for me and talking about this.

Oh, God, indulge me for two seconds.

This is definitely giving me freaking Empire Strikes Back Han Solo vibes.

The arguing with Dustin and Steve is so much like Han and Leia before they profess their undying love for each other.

Like, it's like, so much.

Even down to them going through the freaking Upside down is like when they were going into hyperdrive and trying to.

It's crazy.

Like these guys really do love this 80s shit, this 70s 80s TV shit.

It feels very much like that.

Anyway, I've been trying to place like why does this arguing that Dustin and Steve do remind me of something so much?

And that was it.

You just helped me for some reason.

That little sequence unlocked it for me.

That's where I've seen this before.

It's a great sequence.

I love.

I loved.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm glad they made it right, because in any moment I'm worried about people going out.

But it's great.

I just think it's so funny that they just had no further plan.

We're gonna follow the demagoring and then what y' all gonna do?

What are they going to do when they.

So what's the next step of this plan?

So concerning.

Concerning that we're still making.

Poor life choices at this point.

This is dumber than keeping dart and I'm just putting it out.

Did they think that that thing was gonna like lead them to Holly?

Like, oh, what does follow this?

Everybody?

Yeah, but then, but then like, okay, so it leads you to Holly.

What do you.

What happens then?

Right, exactly.

Because they know that the Demogorgons don't do anything that like, like what do they.

Why does anybody stop and be like, hey, Will, when the Demogorgon took you, what happened next in the next six days?

Do you remember?

You got any recollection about when the Demogorgon snatched you?

What happened?

That would be a great starter.

I think that'd be a great place to start your plans.

So I, I don't, I don't know what to say about that.

I just remembered we never circled back to Holly and Max.

Yeah.

Yeah, we should talk about that for sure.

Poor Holly and Max.

Here's the thing about these episodes is it was just like reveal after reveal.

I was like, oh my God, it's Max.

Oh my God, it's Kali.

Oh my God.

Will has powers.

So we will.

So let's do sort of broad strokes of a wrinkle in time and we won't talk about like how we feel that it, it might be connected.

Going forward.

We'll leave that for a little bit of spoilers.

But like, let's talk about like the broad story and how it connects to the story that we're.

We're watching on screen with Max and, and.

Holly.

Both stories come down to.

The fight against good and evil.

And forced conformity and how individualism and individual people of light can overcome the darkness by being authentically Themselves.

That's what I think these stories are talking about.

I think there's some.

I think, like, that's the broad strokes of Wrinkle in Time.

Without going into all the specifics of the story, I guess.

Broad.

Do you want to talk about, like, the summary of that story or would you want to like.

Not the full summary?

I would.

I think Holly did most of it on screen.

So.

Yeah.

In A Wrinkle in Time, the main character, Meg's father, has been missing for over a year.

He's a science.

Both her parents are scientists.

Meg is kind of an awkward kid.

She.

She's not as smart as her parents.

She gets a lot of flack at school.

People want her to conform.

Right.

She's.

She's too much of whatever.

She has a brother who is young and sensitive and who.

Who.

Is sensitive in a metaphysical sense.

Not just that he.

He's sensitive.

Like it a little bit.

How they kind of the way that they imply that Henry Creel and Will are both kind of sensitive kids who pick up from other people, you know, I think what.

What people would call, like an empath.

Right.

And they have a mysterious visitor.

I think you guys can guess that's Mrs. Whatsit.

Who stops by their house and in the middle of a storm.

And she basically tells.

I'm.

I'm skipping multiple chapters at this point just to get to the point.

She and her friends basically tell them that their father is being held on a planet that is ruled by this dark cloud sort of force called it.

And the name of the planet is Kamazots.

And so we'll leave it there.

Sort of like Meg has to figure Megan and her.

A friend of hers.

Well, a new friend of hers, Calvin and her brother travel to Camazotz to try to find her dad.

And what they find is exactly what you just said, which is it forced conformity.

And this like, overlord.

That it keeps everything under control.

Essentially.

He.

Essentially this.

This entity says that the problems that have faced the world are because people are individuals and don't all do the same things at the same time in the same way.

And so Kamazat is a place where all these people, they do all the same things at the same time in the same way, in different ways in some form or fashion.

Right.

And so it's a very much like conformist culture where everything is ran and overseen by this entity.

It.

Right.

So that's.

That's.

Yeah.

And you know, as, you know, it fits very well.

It fits extremely well.

You.

One could argue, depending on how they land this and how they use it or don't use it.

That it could be too on the nose.

One could argue that.

But it definitely fits the theme of, like, you know, stranger things, you know, memory, how that plays out, like, pushing against, like, you know, this idea that Eddie kind of spoke about, about forced conformity and uniquely being yourself and even what Dustin is pushing for in this particular series, so in this particular, like, season, so.

And sort of, to me, beyond the plot and themes that the Duffer Brothers could pull from it, I think it's more important in terms.

Not more important, but equally important in terms of a reminder that children need these types of stories to help them contextualize the real world.

And feeling powerless within their world.

Like when Holly is talking to Max about the story Max has not read.

She is so excited to talk about Meg.

Right?

Because she see Holly sees herself.

It allows herself to imagine herself as a character like Meg.

Meg feels like an outsider.

Meg is anxious because her father is missing.

Meg actually has three brothers, and two of them are kind of annoying.

And there's even a point in the book where she says, well, at least, you know, my youngest brother loves me.

I don't remember if she says unconditionally, but that's kind of.

He loves me no matter what.

Right.

And so Holly, a kid who is struggling with bullying, is.

Is Feels othered as well.

It seems like she has a pretty good relationship with Nancy and.

And Mike and with her mom.

But it'll.

These stories, just like.

Dungeons and Dragons, allow these kids to put a language to the things that they're experiencing and to imagine themselves as heroes.

And I think that's really important, too, that regardless of what story it is, a lot of these stories are similar.

They have similar themes about being true to yourself, love and connection.

But those.

There's a reason the kids love these stories, because it allows them to find home in a fantasy world when the real world seems quite scary a lot of the time.

I agree.

I think it's really cool.

I think it's really cool to see.

Can we talk about one funny moment from their encounter, which is Max telling the story about Nancy stopping Mike from getting the orange Mohawk.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really good.

That was great.

It was so Max.

I was like, my girl's unchanged.

She may have been invited as my.

But it was such a Max story to tell.

I really loved it.

And I also loved that Holly was like, what color was the mohawk?

Yeah, exactly.

I love how she describes Max in the beginning, too.

Like, always Walks with her Walkman, like put like always has her Walkman on, blah, blah, blah.

Like, you know, like she knew she had experienced that.

It's pretty fascinating.

Yeah, no, it's good, it's good.

They gave us, they gave us enough to, to say, okay, these people aren't seeing each other for the first time.

Time.

They're like, you know, they're just having this kind of level of interaction for the first time.

So I thought that was.

I thought that was, that was really, really, really cool.

You know, I think we want to leave it there for the tie ins to.

Wrinkle in Time, memory and all that, in the hopes that we won't.

If you want to read Wrinkle in Time, you can read it.

If you don't want to know how we think those things tie in into, like, where this story may be going, it won't spoil anything for you.

This is all speculation on our point.

Like we said, we haven't seen screeners, but there's some pretty clear threads that we can kind of see based on both stories.

So we'll save that.

But I do want to.

Let's.

Let's talk a little bit about Dr. K. We talked, we touched on her a little bit last episode, but I think, like, she's a central figure and that they, she somehow, through using K's powers or some way, has figured out a way to neutralize L's powers.

So we're assuming that they're using K's powers?

We don't know yet.

I'm not sure.

I looked at this so many times.

It's really unclear because it's like they wanted us to think that what was ever behind that door was a Kryptonite.

Yeah.

But like, and, and the sound did stop when Hopper went behind the door.

Yeah, but it seems like they were maybe using the same sound against Kali to keep her from using her powers.

So I'm not, I'm still not sure.

Is this, is this just radio waves?

I saw.

I saw a tick tock months and months ago.

I think it's by the same creator I talked about on one of our previous podcasts, which her name is Pass in a Panic, where she talked about using radio waves to recreate the chip they put into Henry to keep him from using his powers that they found a way to weaponize to make that something that they could get through frequencies.

I don't remember her whole theory, but I think that could be what's happening.

But that's not really the question you asked.

We were talking about Dr. K. And I really don't like her.

Bring back Dr. Owens.

Yeah, we want Dr. Owens.

We want Dr. Owens.

This lady is so cruel and so careless.

And she doesn't even know why she really.

Like what.

What's really going on.

Like, she doesn't know about Vecna because she doesn't understand what Hopper and Elle are doing.

She doesn't know that Elle is doing something evil because she even admits that to Sullivan.

That Elle might want the kids to protect them.

So she's just pursuing Elle because it's her mission or because of the science of it or whatever.

But like we.

She just.

She's so careless.