Join Sadaf Beynon on Podjunction Podcast as she chats with Mark Asquith, co-founder of Captivate.fm, about transforming podcasting into a business tool. Discover how Mark's journey from a design agency owner to a podcasting pioneer can inspire your own podcasting success. Don't miss insights on creating engaging content and effective calls to action for business growth.

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Timestamps:

0:00 Intro

4:10 Mark Asquith's Journey

6:41 Podcasting as a Business Tool

10:23 Shifts in Podcasting Perception

12:43 Designing Effective Podcasts

17:46 Common Mistakes in Podcasting

22:45 Turning Listeners into Customers

25:20 Establishing Thought Leadership

29:22 Captivate's Role for Business Podcasters

31:27 Key Lessons for Business Growth

32:47 Podcasting's Unique Advantages

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Key Takeaways:

1. Design with Purpose: Mark emphasises the importance of designing a podcast with a clear purpose and a single call to action. He advises against overwhelming listeners with multiple requests, suggesting instead to focus on one memorable action that aligns with your business goals. This approach helps in effectively guiding listeners towards desired outcomes, such as joining an email list or visiting a website.

2. Quality Content and Consistency: He stresses the need for high-quality, engaging content that stands out. Mark highlights that podcasts should not just follow a generic interview format but should offer unique insights and value. Consistency in delivering this quality content is crucial for long-term success and establishing a strong brand presence.

3. Long-term Strategy: Mark points out that podcasting is a long-term endeavour. It requires patience and consistent effort to build a reputation and audience. He suggests viewing podcasting as a strategic channel that, over time, can significantly enhance brand recognition and customer trust, even continuing to benefit the business after active publishing has ceased.

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Unlock the potential of your podcast today! Don’t miss out on transforming your podcast into a powerful business tool—visit Podjunction.com to discover resources, tips, and opportunities that can take your podcast to the next level. Subscribe now and elevate your podcasting journey!

Welcome to Podjunction Podcast, a show for

podcasters who want to use their podcast to grow

their business. I'm your host, Sadaf Beynon, and

today I'm joined by that podcast guy, Mark

Asquith. Mark is the managing director and co

founder of Captivate.fm and a pioneering force in

the podcasting industry. With over a decade of

experience, he's helped countless podcasters turn

their passions into profitable businesses. Mark,

welcome to the show.

Well, hello. Thank you for having me. It's a

pleasure, Mark.

It's great to have you here. So you've been in

the podcasting space for over a decade now, and

you've seen the industry evolve quite

significantly. Could you take us back to where it

all began for you? What drew you to into

podcasting?

Yeah, it's sort of an interesting story, I think

one that people relate to that listen to

Podjunction, but I think one that is very common,

yet also quite personal. And I think that's a

very interesting theme for a lot of podcasters.

Anyway, so I was. I was a small business owner. I

was a design agency owner, built design and brand

and software agency here in the north of England.

Used to do fantastic work for fantastic clients.

Everything from grassroots businesses right up to

multinationals, blue chip companies, people like

the Art Directors Club in New York, a lot of

multinational stuff. So it was really interesting

stuff. But I was, I think it was, I want to say,

about 2011, I was starting to get a little bit

bored of it. Um, we'd grown to a big enough size

where everyone was comfortable, we were earning,

you know, fine money. Um, but I was getting a

little bit bored. I was getting a little bit, you

know, I think frustrated with agency life, always

having to pitch for new clients, and just this

kind of complete hamster wheel constantly, which

it would just. It was just dull to me. Um, so I

was looking for more of a creative outlet. And

I'm big into pop culture. If anyone's watching a

video version of this or ever seen me on video

from here in my home office, you'll see there's

loads of memorabilia, Star wars stuff, DC Comics

stuff. I'm a big pop culture nerd. So I started

writing with a friend of mine, Gary Ehlert, about

pop culture on a website that we called Two Shots

to the Head. And that became a podcast. And from

there I started, I suppose, the classic interview

podcast. This is really back in, like, maybe 2013

now. So we've done the podcast pop culture show

for a couple of years, and I started. I started

my own interview Podcast in business. And it was

mainly for two reasons. To kind of help people

out in small business, but also to just position

myself as a bit of a thinker in small business

locally. But what happened was that I very

quickly realized that the podcasting

technological elements of podcasting, at least

those parts of it, were very broken. There wasn't

much out there. There was not many hosting

platforms out there. Technology was difficult.

There's no need for it to be that difficult. So I

thought I found myself in an interesting

position. I was here in the uk. No one else was

into podcasting. That's why I've got that British

podcast guy, Monica. I used to go and speak at

all these events, and I was literally one of the

only British people there. And because I was

generally the one speaking out of all of us Brits

that were there, I just. I became. That became my

thing. So very quickly start to put. Start to put

together sort of solutions for podcasters, you

know, web platforms for podcasters and so on and

so forth, and just. I sort of just got into the

industry, got to know everyone in the industry,

started working in the industry, built businesses

in the industry. And then I think in 2017, it

was. We. I segued out of my agency, we got rid of

the agency. I was, like I said, very bored of it.

Moved into being a software company through our

podcasting technology, and then founded

Captivate, the hosting platform that people

generally know us for today, which in turn was

then acquired by global back in 2021. And I still

run that. Still, you know, basically do the same

job as I did before. So, yeah, quite an

interesting little tale, really. But it's. It's

certainly one rooted in small business, which is

quite interesting.

Yeah, that is really interesting. And you're

right, this is what our. What Podjunction is

about. So this is perfect. You talked about you

wanted to start creating solutions for

podcasters. Was that based on your own experience

and stuff that you wanted to be able to have at

your fingertips to make life, your podcasting

life easier for you? Is that where that came from?

I think that that's certainly where we. We moved

to with Captivate. Initially, it was very much

around just taking the knowledge that we had and

helping because actually, let me. Let me go back

a little bit. Most podcasters Back in 2014, 15,

when I started making technology here, were

either like the. The entertainment celebrity

podcast, Kevin Smith and those people, Joe

Rogan's of the World, or there was like this

massive entrepreneur thing. You know, it was

like, oh, if you're A quote unquote entrepreneur.

You gotta have a podcast. It's quick route to six

figure. Six figures. Absolute rubbish. Complete

rubbish. But that's what everyone was selling.

You know, you had people selling that, that

dream. So I sort of spotted that gap with my co

founder, Kieran, and we said, well, wait a

minute, most of these people are going to want a

way to display that podcast publicly, a way to

host it a little bit easier than they've

currently got the ability to do in terms of a

hosting platform and to bring everything together

in terms of tech stacks. So that's what we

started doing. So it was, yeah, I mean, it was,

it was to scratch my own itch, but it was more

about. I'd spotted the opportunity, but then

because I became a much more seasoned podcaster

really quickly, you know, I'm probably sat here

now 10, 10 years, 11 years, 12 years into this,

probably done 1700 podcast episodes, I would

guess I became seasoned quite quickly. And that's

when I started seeing things like, oh, actually,

maybe we could make the hosting element easier

using Captivate, or maybe now we've got a podcast

hosting platform, maybe we could add these

features to make my life easier, which in turn

would make everyone's life easier. Which is where

the brand of Captivate really grew and elevated

from, was just, you know, a complete lack of

competitor awareness. We just didn't care. We

didn't, we purposely didn't look at other

competitors because otherwise you end up just

sort of mimicking them doing whatever they're

doing. Yeah, so, yeah, that, yeah, it was

certainly to scratch my own itch, but to start

with, it was very much around the technology

space in podcasting. Just wasn't very good back

then.

Yeah, that's cool. So when did you first see the

potential for podcasting as a business tool for

yourself?

I think straight away, really. I mean, it's like

anything. It's only got potential if you, you

actually put time and effort into it. It's like

anything, you know, it's not, it isn't a get rich

quick thing. It's not the secret ingredient. It's

not the silver bullet. It's not the thing that's

going to supercharge your business and 10x your

revenue and all that, all that rubbish you see in

the books, it's not that. So I, I saw the

potential for it as a channel really early, but

the problem was not that many people were

listening and now there are so many more people

listening. So it was, I spotted it early, but I

was also very aware that it needed heckle Heck, a

heck of a lot of good work and consistency, which

I think back then a lot of people had spotted it

as a potential channel, but they thought it was

this get rich quick thing, which was. That was.

That's a shame, you know, because that's just not

right.

And so how would you say then, based on what

you've just said, would you like the perception

of podcasting as a marketing tool? How do you

think that's changed among businesses since the

industry first started? So, you know, you're

saying they used it as a get rich quick tool, or

they tried to. But where things are at now, how

do you think that perception's changed for

businesses?

Well, I think this. I think the first thing to do

is to categorize businesses. Those people I'm

talking about that were using it as get rich

quick were the quote unquote, entrepreneurs.

Right.

And what I mean, there is online marketers that

would build traffic to a website and sell

advertisements, sell affiliate products. Nothing

wrong with that. But let's not confuse that with

an entrepreneur, you know, Richard Branson, Steve

Jobs.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, they're the genuine entrepreneurs in my

mind. The reason I say that is because I think

it's important to understand that actually what

we are talking about is a genuine small business,

you know, that has. That is actually to this day,

and even in 2024, as we're sat here, you know,

there are still steam podcasting as bleeding

edge. You know, many, many small businesses now

are still seeing podcasting as bleeding edge, but

they're now able to get into it a little bit

more. And I think that's what's changed is this

idea that podcasting is an entertainment and

education medium. It is. It's like any other

channels, like TV, it's like broadcast media.

It's like YouTube. It's like writing anything,

whether it's a blog or a book, it's like any

other channel. You've got to entertain or educate

or a little mix of both. And I think when people

understood that and when people figured that out

and actually realized that you've got to provide.

Yeah. Content that will help to position you as

the expert, because that's ultimately what the

businesses in the space are looking to do. But

it's got to be educational and it's got to be

useful. And importantly, it's got to be

entertaining. And I think that's been the big

shift, is that, you know, even some of the

biggest interview podcasts that had the same

format because it was cool to batch Record. And

you could just record the same old stuff and just

put it out all the time. They can't do that

anymore. They're not doing that anymore because

there are other better shows out there that will,

that will deliver much of the same value, but in

just a better way. And I, I honestly think that's

the tipping point, or has been the tipping point

the last four or five years is that people have

seen that this is a genuine media that requires

the same attention as anything that you put your

effort into. And it's not just get a micro run,

an interview, sell some affiliate stuff, make 100

grand a month. You know, it's just, it just isn't

that way. So I think that's been the big change.

Yeah. So do you think this shift has come from, I

guess, trying to figure it out and realize their

get rich quick schemes weren't working? And so is

it a part of that or is it to do with society as

well? Like, is it the way they're absorbing

content? Has that changed? You know what I mean?

Is it, is it a. I do. Is it a myth?

Yeah, I do. I think it's both. Yeah. I think if

we, if we take the consumer angle first, podcast

listening has grown and grown and grown. It's now

in the lexicon, it's now mainstream.

Yeah.

And what that has caused is more bigger media

companies. You know, we were purchased by Global.

We. One of our podcasts that launched 14 months

ago is just about to hit 100 million downloads

aggregate.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it's a huge show. And there's. We've got a

lot of those shows. And the general podcast

listener has got so much more choice of high

quality talent coming into the space and creating

great shows. So that's the first thing the

targeted listener, the business owner that might

be listening to Podjunction actually has got so

many other shows to choose from. You know, we

want them to choose Podjunction, but they could

choose other shows, whereas before they couldn't.

So I think that's one element of it, is that the

listener is much more savvy. They're aware that

it's not just for the nerds and it's not just for

education and the gurus. And then I think you're

right on the other side of that coin, you know, a

lot of people started podcasts having bought a

podcasting course from someone whose

entrepreneurial vision was to sell podcasting

courses. Like, they weren't making money from

their podcast, they were making money because

they were teaching people how to podcast. And

Then they built an audience, sold sponsorships,

and that's cool. But a lot of gurus back then,

what they were doing is saying they were

entrepreneurs and business people and trying to

teach business when actually they were just

podcasters. And that's great. There were

podcasters that were making money from

sponsorships, but not every podcaster can do that

and not every podcaster can monetize an audience

on the back end. So a lot of these people bought

these courses or they bought the things from the

gurus, realized it's not, it's really not as rosy

as it was painted, and decided that actually, do

you know what, I'm either going to quit and a lot

did, or I love talking and I love sharing my

message, but I'm actually going to reevaluate my

mission with my podcast or I'm going to

reevaluate the type of effort that I put into my

podcast in order to get the results. So, yeah, I

do think there's been a couple of big tectonic

shifts that have caused that change in behavior.

Yeah, that's cool. What kinds of things do you

think businesses need or podcasters who are using

their podcast to grow their business? What kind

of things do they need to be doing in that

podcast to help growth for their business?

Well, I mean, you got to have good content, you

know, it can't just be, get someone on, interview

them the same format as everyone. Because I'll

just say the same stuff. I'll just say the same

stuff on every podcast. I can't help it because

if you ask me the same questions, I will say the

same stuff. It's inevitable. So I think you've

got to plan your content out more. I think you've

got to be better as a podcaster. We all have to

capture the right, capture the right news bites,

the right one liners, the right sound bites that

you can use to build a conversation around. And

if that's, if you're doing an interview show and

but I think overall you have got to produce the

content that is real good quality, deep dive

stuff. It's not just top level, let's get an

episode out. Because we've said we're going to

put an episode out every Tuesday, actually. Let's

be purposeful about it. And I think one of the

other things is that people don't design their

podcast. What they do is they'll turn up and

they'll just go, right, you know what, get a mic,

we'll do some interviews. That's cool. And the

problem with that is that they don't think

through the rest of it. All right? They don't

think through the rest of it. So what they don't

do is say, right, what, what's the outcome that

we want with this podcast? Well, the outcome is

let's say that I'm an accountant, right?

Accountant is boring, but it's vital. So let's

try and, let's try and make it a little bit less

boring. But actually, let's not forget that it is

vital. And what do we want out of this? We might

want leads, but actually, realistically, how do

we get leads? Are we going to get people on an

email list? Are we going to do some social

interaction? Have we got a proper funnel in

place? How are we going to get people to take

some action and channel, shift them to something

else, you know, move them from a podcast and

shift them to a different channel, whether that

is an email list or whatever. And people don't

design that. So what they tend to do is they

might have, let's say they've got a lead magnet,

right? Real basic stuff from back in the day.

They've got a lead magnet. Download my ebook on

how to, you know, whatever. How to save 5% of

your tax every year by making sure you're

claiming the right things. Whatever, whatever.

But what they do is they start an episode and

say, hey, what's going on? This is, this is the,

the Accountancy 101 podcast. My name is Mark.

Don't forget to subscribe to the email list at

such and such and don't forget to tell your

friends about the show and listen on Apple,

Spotify. Oh, and go to this website and do this

thing. Follow us on social media, blah, blah,

blah. They forget that. Actually, that's, that's

too much cognitive load. People get overwhelmed

by that. Instead, the biggest design mistake

people make with the podcast is not just having

one single call to action. Yeah, you know,

welcome to Accountancy 101 today. Five ways that

you can save money on your tax bill by claiming

the right expenses. If you need more of this, go

and get the checklist@markasquith.com 101.

Speaking of which, here's my guest and we're

going to talk about X, Y and Z. Then three

minutes later. Yep, that's a really great point.

And remember, you the listeners, don't forget

markazquist.com101 it gets you the thing. And

then 10 minutes later, really lovely stuff. Love

chatting. We are going to switch gears in a sec.

But remember, markazcrift.com 101 and now a lot

of people don't do that. They think they've got

to do everything, they've got to say everything.

And no one's going to move. No one will go and

follow you on social. No one will go and do that

because what's the point? They don't want to.

They're not there for that. They're in the gym,

they're walking, they're doing the housework,

they're in the car. They're not doing that. What

we've got to do is get to that memory. We've got

to, we've got to embed, just like all touch

points in marketing is, embed ourselves in the,

in the memory. So that the next time something

spurs me to think about the topic, I'll think,

oh, actually that's it. That's in the back of my

head. I'll, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. I

should go and do that. So that's the, that's the

single biggest design mistake that small business

podcasters make, is that they think about

everything. They think about covering everything.

We used to do for the design agency. This is a

really bizarre sort of analogy. We used to, we

had a client who wanted us to do the, we did all

their website, all their branding and everything.

And we had their, they wanted us to design some

wraps for their van. You know, the library for

the van. Right. And this, this company did, they

did plumbing, heating, gas, engineering, air

conditioning. They did ground source heat, pumps,

solar panels, the lot. And they said, we want

every service we do on the back of our van. And

we said to them, you probably don't actually, you

probably just need the word for everything.

Plumbing, heating and engineering. Yeah, here's

my phone number. And they were staunchly against

it. I was like, well, that's cool. But I'm pretty

sure that's the wrong way. Sure enough, they came

back a few months later. Matt, no one can read

this at 70 mile an hour. Yeah. Really. Nowhere.

Nowhere. And the point is, it's, you know, it's a

very simple change that many small businesses can

make. And a lot of people don't get traction for

the podcast from the podcast because of this.

They'll say, well, I'm doing this podcast and

it's costing me money and I'm not getting

anything from it. Yeah. Because the listener

doesn't know what you want them to do. Right. So

that's a huge thing. And like quite literally,

95% small business podcasters make that mistake.

So fix that. And that's a huge thing done.

And what's a good, what's a good cta?

Whatever is mapped to your own process. So if we

use the example of. Well, there's two, there's

two ways to think about this. One, there's the,

there's the online CTA if we want people to

channel shift through. So let's use the E book as

an example. I'm an online entrepreneur. I want to

sell consulting services, coaching services,

ebook products, whatever. I want to sell courses,

whatever. You've got to, got to, got to, got to

find out what people are wanting, do your survey

data, figure out what people want and then

basically just find a way to give them a really

value packed solution. Great example of this

would be we sell a hosting platform called

Captive. We want people that want to start a

podcast or have already got a podcast and are

serious about growing their podcast. Right. We

surveyed the audience, real deep dive survey.

Went through a range of open ended questions,

siphoned through the answers and came up with the

fact that there are probably four things. Only

four. One of these things will stop you starting

a podcast. So we created a course and a quiz

that's all free. That is our lead magnet. And

that's the one lead magnet. Because we know it

hits our audience.

Yeah.

On the other side of it, that might not work.

It's not going to work for the plumbing company.

It's not going to work for the local electrician.

It's, it isn't. So the call to action might be if

I'm, if I'm John, the local electrician and I've

got a, I've got a podcast, a local podcast.

Actually. My goal is not to have an electrician's

podcast. It's to have a podcast about the village

that I live in or the town that I live in. It

just so happens to be sponsored by my company,

the electrical company. And what's the thing

you've got to remember? My name, my name, my

name, my name. Oh, guess what? Here's what you

search for to Google me. So the call to action

might just be, you know, welcome to the

Manchester local podcast. This has been great.

Remember, this is brought to you by John's

Electrical. So it's John's Electrical Manchester

for everything that you need. And that's it.

That's all you say? Keep saying that. So there's

no right answer to what is the right cta, the

right call to action. It has to be mapped to the

business goals and to that, that wider marketing

strategy. So and again, that's something that

many small businesses just don't have, is a

strategy. They're just like, we exist, people

will probably come and they don't. We know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm just thinking in terms

of email addresses, you mentioned that earlier

too. Like, is there a cta? Like, if you're trying

to get email addresses, is a lead magnet the

right way to go?

Yeah. If you're trying to get email addresses,

you just got to have one simple, easy to remember

URL to send people to. Markazwith.com 101.

Whatever. You know, that's not a real thing, but

assume it is. And it's got to be memorable. It's

got to be quick. Yeah. Get it in your show notes

and whatever else that's obvious. Talk about it

online, whatever. But it's got to be quick. It's

got to be memorable. It has to be somewhere that

is, that looks trustworthy. It's got to be

somewhere that doesn't have, like the SSL

certificate issues, doesn't have any issues with

your website. It's got to look good, it's got to

be well designed, well thought out, well

structured, good copyright and good photography.

But it's got to be simple to remember. And it

just got to be one small thing. You know, I could

say to you, you know, if let's assume I sponsor

Podjunction and you say to me, our audience are

looking to start a podcast for their small

business, you might say, right, Mark, can you

record an advert and we'll put it in and that's

what you get for your sponsorship. Let's assume

that I want to use that course as the lead

magnet, which is essentially the same as an email

list.

Yeah.

You know, you're signing up for something, you're

going to use it. My structure of my advert would

be, are you a small business looking for more

leads and want to grow through podcasting? Well,

did you know there are actually only four reasons

that you will not launch your podcast this month?

Don't find out what the one big stopper is right

now by answering two questions. Captivate.fmm,

slash, podcast, whatever. It's quick, it's

simple. But what I've done is, I've said I've

done the alignment part. Are you a this?

Yeah, I.

And then I've done the aspiration part and you're

wanting to do X with Y. However, I know my

research, I've done the research, so I know that

I can say, however, you're probably struggling

with something But I'm not going to tell you what

the something is because my job is to help you to

go to my website where the free diagnosis will

get you into the course. So that. It's a, It's a

very quick methodology.

Yeah.

But it gets people thinking. And I think if you

can push people to thinking like that, the calls

to action become way more effective and you need

far fewer listeners to achieve much greater

results with your podcast. So that's, that's

quite a big thing to remember.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Apart from a great

cta, is there other ways that a podcaster who's

using their podcast to grow their business can

turn their customers, or, sorry, their listeners

into customers?

I mean, the only. If you were to not put any call

to action in, the only thing that you're doing is

positioning yourself as the thought leader.

Right.

And that will just have a big, long lasting, long

tail halo effect. That's it. It will just, it

might lead to something in a few years when

someone's seen you here and they've seen you on

your podcast, they've seen you an event, they've.

They've done some research because they're now

looking for an electrician. Oh. And actually

that's the person from the podcast. I forgot

about them.

Yeah.

So they feel a bit more, bit more relatable to

me, you know, so it's not. If you were using your

podcast for small business, you have to do

something to get people to do something. You

know, you can't just put. It's like just writing

blog posts and expecting people to do something

on your website, that's cool. But unless there's

a big call to action on the. In the middle of

your blog post two or three times, or the website

set up to actually encourage people to do other

things after they've read the blog post, they'll

just read the blog post and off they go then. And

you don't get anything from it. So that's a big

miss, in my opinion.

Yeah. Sounds more like. When you're listening to

you talk, it sounds more like a slow burn,

doesn't it?

Oh, yeah. And it wouldn't. You'd have to. You

would struggle to set up, set it on fire because

it simply wouldn't burn. It would just.

Yeah.

People would come into your content, they'd leave

the content that you'd done and there'd be none

the wiser on how to get to know you, how to

contact you, you know, what you can really do to

help them, which is pointless. You May as well

start a comedy podcast, or you may as well start

a Star wars podcast and just enjoy it, you know,

because if it's. This is the really specific

thing, like, you can do that in podcasting, but

you've got to be an entertainment podcast to do

it. And if you're a small business, we only do

things that have impact.

Yeah.

And thus we need to tell people what to do next.

So it's. Yeah, it's pretty commonsensical when

you really think about it, but it's. People

forget about it. Because, look, let's be honest,

you know, I don't start my electrical business to

become a quote unquote entrepreneur or a marketer

or a sales guru. I started to be an electrician

and just want to make some money to pay my

mortgage. You know, I don't want to learn these

other things. So it's forgivable to forget about

it.

Something you said at the. Earlier, earlier on in

the. In the podcast was what, you know, when,

when you started doing your classic interview

style ones. One was to help other small

businesses, and two was to establish yourself or

position yourself as a thinker, slash thought

leader. Yeah. So about thought leadership then.

How can podcasters who are in this space, like,

who'd be listening to Podjunction, how can they

leverage their show to establish themselves as

thought leaders in their particular industry?

The thing you cannot do is be boring and

forgettable. You've got to have an opinion, be

willing to listen to counter arguments against

that opinion. Be willing to be flexible and open.

But you have to have something to say. You have

got to be willing to not try to please everyone,

because if you please everyone, you ain't

pleasing anyone. You've got to be willing to

understand that every time I say something about

podcasting, someone might like it and the other

person might hate it. And I'm all right with

that. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. That's cool.

I don't care because it helps me to filter out

the right people. Now, Dave Jackson, great friend

of mine, wonderful podcast educator, might say

the exact same words as me, but he says it in

Dave's way and with Dave's tone. And the person

that hates what I say might love when Dave says

it and vice versa. And that's a big thing, is

that you can't be a thought leader if you don't

think. You know, thought leadership and

authenticity and all this stuff just became this

kind of ethereal rubbish about eight, nine years

ago. And it was like, oh, I'll be A thought

leader by just putting anything out there? Well,

no, to be a thought leader, you gotta think.

You've got to have your opinion, your view, your,

your method and way of articulating things. And

I'm, I'm very specific in the way that I do that.

You know, I'm, I'm, I am, I'm very quite

outspoken. If I see something that I think is

rubbish, I'll just say that's clearly rubbish and

here's the reasons that I think it's rubbish. And

if you disagree, present your reasons. And if I'm

wrong, then I will happily learn from it. But

right now I think that's rubbish. And I will

happily say that. Whereas a lot of people, small

businesses, they don't want to do that. You know,

that's not us. We don't want to, we don't want to

annoy anyone. Well, by simply putting anything

out online, you are already annoying someone. You

are, you are. You can be as gray and as beige and

as boring and as completely lackluster as you

want and sit on as many fences as you want, you

will still annoy someone. So you may as well do

it with a bit of gusto and actually have

something to say. And that's, that is a huge

thing that people simply are scared to do.

I feel like the words thought leader has become a

bit of a, like a buzzword. I think everyone wants

to be a thought leader, but I think listening to

you speak, there's an element of one. Of course,

you got to be, you got to know your stuff and

think about it and have an opinion on things. You

know, put your, put that stake in the ground. But

also there's an element of being in the trenches

and really understanding it. It's not just having

an opinion, it's actually really knowing from

the. Knowing it inside out, if that makes sense.

It's like you can't, yeah, you can't, you can't

sort of be the Dunning Kruger effect personified.

You can't just have a little bit of knowledge and

assum. Know everything and then go out renegade.

Yeah, you know, you've got it. If you're going to

position yourself as a thought leader, then

you've got to be the second part of that, which

is the leader part of it. And then you've also

got to be not necessarily an expert, but you've

got to have enough knowledge and enough well

rounded knowledge to understand all aspects of

the topic that you're talking about. Like, I

understand every aspect of podcasting, you know,

I'm here running Captivate and we work with indie

podcast creators that are just starting. We work

with established creators, but yet we also work

with shows with, you know, 300, 400,000 downloads

an episode, massive advertisers, people that are

monetizing through memberships and tipping. We

understand how the advertising systems were, the

technicalities of it, but also the contractual

and commercial elements of it. And yet I also can

Turn up at PodFest and talk to someone that is

starting a podcast because they want to help kids

to get scholarships, you know, and you've, you've

got to be well rounded enough to do that. And

that's. I mean, we know this already is that you

can only have a well formed opinion if you know

all sides of the tail. And it's the same with

anything. So you're absolutely right. You can't

just, you can't just show up and be renegade for

no reason.

I know time is short, Mark, but just want to

switch gears slightly over here and ask you to

tell us a bit more. I know you've mentioned

Captivate and some of the stuff that you guys do

there, but I was wondering if you could maybe

talk to how it might address needs of business

podcasters in particular.

Yeah, business people are busy. I'm a business

person, I'm busy, don't have time for anything.

And when you create a podcast, there are so many

moving parts to that. And what we've done with

Captivate is, yes, we're a hosting platform that

will distribute and monetize your podcast through

Apple, Spotify and wherever else, but we're also

a podcast management system. So we'll. Well, our

promises will either save you money, make you

money, or save you time. Signing up to Captivate,

we'll do one or more of those three things, and

we do that through connecting all the dots. So

many people use things like Calendly to book

their guests, and they use Notion or Evernote to

research their guests. Captivate actually has.

Well, we've got a calendar and guest booking

system built in, interview management built in.

We've got episode research and planning tools

built in all in one place so that, guess what?

You don't have to write your show notes, you

don't have to worry about your website. You don't

have to worry about that. Captivate does that

element all for you. And there's a lot of that.

It's not just those elements. That's very much

the mantra of Captivate is that we will, we will

help you to run and to grow your podcast. With

very few moving parts, it becomes very simple to

access really powerful things that are usually

reserved for the top tier podcasters. If you're a

startup podcast now, using Captivate, you can

have access to the same kind of tools that the

biggest podcasts in the world use. And it's not

going to cost you any more and it's going to save

you that time. So it's. Yeah, we're a very

specific company that work with a very specific

type of podcaster. If a podcaster identifies as

being serious about growing their audience,

Captivate's generally the best hosting platform

for them.

Yeah, yeah, we've been using Captivate for

several years now and it really is a great, a

great platform and it's been really beneficial

for us and we do quite a few different podcasts

as well. So yeah, it's just great to have

everything on one in one place. And yeah, the

tools are really helpful for businesses. Yeah,

thanks.

Thank you. Very kind.

So Mark, just quickly, any key lessons that you,

that you've learned about using podcasts for

business growth?

Yeah. Design something that's entertaining, even

if it's intended to be educational, make it

entertaining because that is what helps you to

stand out. The second thing is that one call to

action. Design a call to action that will serve

your business well. Usually it's something that

would, if we were going traditional on our

marketing would sit a little bit higher up the

funnel. You know, something awareness led that

moves people from the attention and the interest

to the desire stage and then the action stage, it

sits somewhere around there. And then the third

thing would be, podcasting is very much a long

term thing. It's not something that will make you

millions straight away, but it is something that

if you persist with it and you're consistently

good with it and you think about it as a long

term channel strategy, it's something that will

continue to serve you even if you stop

publishing. Your brand will be out there. It'll

be part of the, part of the experience of your

brand and it will, it will serve you beyond the

effort that you put into it if you treat it with

that time and respect that I think it needs in

the early days. And I think if you can do those

things that puts you, that puts you in the top

five, 6% of small businesses out there using

podcasting. Because I think so many people just

simply don't do the basics like that.

Yeah, perfect. Thank you. And another thing,

within 60 seconds, can you tell me why you think

podcasting is a great tool for growing one's

business.

When it comes to growing your business, there's

no easier method of becoming well known within

your niche than using podcasting. There's no

other medium that allows you to craft a story

that relates to your business in such a strong

way, whilst positioning you as a thought leader

and allowing you to move people from listening to

your podcast and enjoying you as the thought

leader into doing something where they end up

working with you, whether that's a product,

service or something else. By using podcasting,

you can become the person that people think of.

That becomes synonymous with solving the problems

that they're trying to solve. And very often,

because they already know you, they trust your

voice, they've listened to you for such a long

time. It becomes easier to make money using that

and that relationship, and you can nurture that

into a lot of lifetime value. That goes both

ways. Yes, you earn your revenue, but your

customers get so much more from it as well. So

it's a very powerful medium.

Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. Thanks very much,

Mark. Really appreciate you joining us today.

It's great to talk with you. Where can our

listeners find more information about you?

Captivate.fm is the place. It's got everything on

there. The hosting stuff, it's got my details on

there. It's got the courses, it's got everything.

Yeah, just Captivate.fm.

Awesome. Thanks again, Mark.

My pleasure. Thank you.

And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to

Podjunction podcast. I hope today's episode

inspires you to think creatively about how you

too can leverage podcasting for your own business

growth. Be sure to check out Mark's podcast and

to reach out to him. The links will be on the

show notes and if you found this episode helpful,

we'd love for you to leave a review or share it

with someone who could also benefit. I'm Sada

Benin. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.