We are in person at the 2024 Animal Forensic Conference in Gainesville, Florida! Dr. G will be interviewing several of the speakers to give our audience a bit of the knowledge gained through the presentations. We will be releasing each interview individually to allow our listeners to find topics of interest.

Dr. Jim Crosby is an expert on animal aggression and dog bites, especially fatalities. With a previous background in police work, he brings a different perspective to crimes involving dog bites. What makes a dog bite? How serious are bites depending on severity? What is the Dunbar Bite Scale? We answer these questions and more.

We would also like to invite our listeners involved in animal cruelty investigations to visit and join the International Society for Animal Forensic Sciences https://isafs.org/

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Our next guest is Dr.

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Jim Crosby, uh, who is an expert

in canine aggression and dog bites.

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Thank you for being here

and welcome to The Junction.

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Jim Crosby: Oh, thanks for having me and

being here at the forensics conference has

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been a lot of fun and it's good also to

catch up with old friends and new ones.

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DrG: So can you start by telling us what

your background is and how it relates

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to the field of veterinary forensics?

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Jim Crosby: Sure, I spent an entire career

as a police officer out on the street.

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So, in investigating crimes for

23 years, I was used to looking

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at things from, through that lens.

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When I retired and got into first

learning about dog training and dog

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behavior, I became aware of the case

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by the dogs out in San Francisco.

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And that bizarrely fascinated me

because it never occurred to me.

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that dogs would kill a person.

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We mistreat each other all the

time, and we mistreat animals,

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but dogs killing a person?

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So I started asking questions, and

that led to me getting a lot of

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training in specifically dog behavior,

but animal behavior in general.

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Uh, and eventually coming here

to the University of Florida

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and getting a master's degree in

veterinary forensics, and then

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following that up and getting a PhD.

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And those studies for both my

master's and my doctorate have

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been focused on dog aggression,

dog bites, and most particularly

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fatal dog attacks on human beings.

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DrG: So what is the importance of

investigating dog bites, especially

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when they lead to fatalities?

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Jim Crosby: It's very, very important

to adequately investigate and not

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make assumptions because unless we

really know and understand what's

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going on and what has led to this,

there's no way for us to prevent or

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reduce the incidences in the future.

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Yes, it's a rare occasion.

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The odds of being killed in the

United States by a dog attack

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are about 1 in 15 million.

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But, for those 30 or 40 people a

year, for their families, if we can

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do something that's effective to

reduce the likelihood of even a few

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of those, then that's going to make

a big difference in somebody's life.

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If it's just simply bites again.

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The public, the owners, the dogs

themselves are placed in danger.

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If we understand what leads to

inappropriate and uncontrolled

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use of their teeth, whether it's

against each other or humans, we

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can improve the quality of life

for the owners, the non dog owning

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public, and the dogs themselves.

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DrG: I think that social media and

television and news and all that stuff

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has given the public an idea of what

a killer dog looks like or is, right?

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And I work with a lot of animals.

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I do high volume

sterilization and wellness.

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So I see tons of dogs coming and going

and my perception is that of what an

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aggressive dog is, is very different

because most of the, you know, what

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people would say, the pit types and such

tend to be nicer to us than like the

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really little dogs and some other breeds.

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So if somebody asks you what a

killer dog looks like, what is, what,

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what does that look like to you?

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Jim Crosby: It winds up being a

situation where you can't really

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tell by looking at the appearance

of a dog, what it's going to do.

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As I mentioned in the lecture,

the research has shown that even

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dog professionals have a difficult

time with mixed breeds telling

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what the predominant breed is, or

what the mix of breeds might be.

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The research also says that individuals

within breeds have more variation in

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behavior than they do between breeds.

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So What does a killer dog look like?

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Well, it has four legs, and it

may be big like a Great Dane.

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It may be as small as a

Pomeranian, because both types

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of dogs have killed human beings.

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What we need to learn, instead of trying

to figure out what a dog looks like

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that's a killer, is to learn what a dog

is communicating when it's speaking to us.

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and learn to listen when the dogs are

telling us they're uncomfortable, or

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they're afraid, or they're unsure, or

any of the reasons that a dog finds

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it necessary to use their teeth.

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DrG: Last year was the first

time that I actually learned

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about the Dunbar Bite Scale.

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So, can you tell us what that means

and how it's used to assess dog bites?

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Jim Crosby: Yeah, it's a six level scale.

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that Dr.

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Ian Dunbar developed back in the

late 70s as a guide to assessing

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the severity of dog bites in a

quantifiable way beyond Ooh, that's bad.

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Oh, that's not so bad.

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Ooh, that's the worst I've ever seen.

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I hear that far too often from various

parties, and it's, to me, it's,

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Well, if that's the worst you've

ever seen, I'm really unimpressed.

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Let me show you some pictures.

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But, um, what the scale does

is let us quantify to a certain

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degree the engagement of the dog

and the circumstances and develop

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a relative level of severity.

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A level one is just intimidation behavior.

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There's no physical

contact with a level one.

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The dog growls, barks.

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communicates in an or, in, in a,

uh, purpose usually to gain space.

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Level 2 is may, may be contact,

but it's with a closed mouth,

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a muzzle punch basically.

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Uh, a dog shoving you back,

trying to raise its voice, saying,

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Hey, I'm uncomfortable here.

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Level 3 is where you first get

a very, inhibited and controlled

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contact with human skin.

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It's one to four holes and they're

shallow holes because, and it's

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one to four because the canine

teeth are usually about twice as

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long as the incisors between them.

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So a limited bite.

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in relationship to the dog and

the size of their teeth, will only

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engage part of the canine teeth.

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Level four is where you've got

a dog that has reached out and

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grabbed on and sunk most, if not

all of its teeth into the target.

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And that's where you find shaking and

pulling and, and dragging around a

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level five is multiple level fours.

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You know, this, that's a dog that's

basically chainsaw with teeth.

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And a level six is a human fatality.

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Yeah, that's kind of specieist

of us to consider that no matter

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how serious it was, if it kills

us, it's the worst of the worst.

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But that's those the

criteria that were set up.

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It's a good basic reference

scale to relatively understand

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how how serious an incident was.

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If, for instance, out of our audience, if

one out of animal control officer here has

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a dog in his jurisdiction that has bitten

somebody, and then they move to another

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jurisdiction and they have an incident,

the second animal control officer can

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conceivably call the first one and say,

Hey, what's the history on this dog?

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And rather than saying, Oh yeah,

it was a bite, but it was no

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big deal, the first one can say,

Hey, this was a level four bite.

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And the second officer will understand,

Okay, this dog has a history of

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substantially uncontrolled biting.

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And that helps communicate

concerns much more clearly.

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DrG: Does animal behavior, in

your experience, have anything to

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do with the severity of a bite?

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Jim Crosby: Oh yes, it's, behavior

is, um, is very, very central to it.

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For instance, if you have a fearful

dog, that is backed up in a corner.

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That's why we need to teach better

body language skills, because

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that dog doesn't need a hug.

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And if you run over, or a child runs

over, and grabs it around the neck to

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make it feel better, it's gonna bite you.

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Why?

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Well, it's tried to tell

you it's uncomfortable, and

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you just weren't listening.

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Or maybe you just didn't understand.

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Um, behavior is related

to the severity of bites.

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Um, dogs that have are well socialized

and have learned, um, limits within

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their lives, either from conspecifics or

from littermates or from their parents.

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Um, they tend to have much more

stable temperaments and when they

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feel or perceive that it's necessary

to bite, they tend to show a

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much more controlled engagement.

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So, so the behavior, yeah, the, the,

Regular behavior of a dog can tell us

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a whole lot about what they're likely

to do if they're poked and prodded to

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whatever their threshold of engagement is.

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DrG: Yeah, I know that there have

been bites that have occurred because

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people have put their hands into a

dog's cage or, you know, approached an

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animal or try to separate animals and

then that results in, in dog bites.

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So, it, the dog often gets blamed

for the action of the bite, but it

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doesn't necessarily mean that the

dog initiated the, the sequence of

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events, right, that led to that bite.

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Jim Crosby: Right.

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Yeah.

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What I If you've ever traveled through

the UK, you know there's a voice that

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comes up in the tube, the subway,

that says, mind the gap, mind the gap.

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I've adopted that in dog bites.

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One of the first things I want to know

is when the dog chose to bite, did the

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dog close the gap to the person or did

the person close the gap to the dog.

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If I have a case where a dog has chased

a child down the street after jumping

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over two fences and digging under,

uh, uh, something else, and then grabs

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the child, and closes the gap and and

expends all of that energy to bite.

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That's way different from a dog that

is in real case sitting minding its

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own business and a stranger came up and

despite the strength, the owner's warnings

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and attempt to keep the stranger away.

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Pushes past the owner, leans over,

grabs the dog by the cheeks, and

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tries to kiss it on the nose, saying,

Dude, I'm like a dog whisperer.

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Yes, he lost a significant

portion of his nose.

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Had it coming.

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DrG: Right.

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Jim Crosby: Different bite.

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DrG: Who is more likely, uh,

statistically to get attacked

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or be a fatality of a dog bite?

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Jim Crosby: The numbers

have been hard to nail down.

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It seems that for instance, with

children below the age of 10,

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little boys are very significantly

more likely to have been fatally

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wounded by a dog than little girls.

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Uh, when we come to adults, the most

common victim to date has been a woman

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in her thirties on her own property,

uh, with dogs that she's either

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owning or cared caring for, uh, in

the Southeastern U S in a upper middle

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class neighborhood where the gross

annual income is above 100, 000 a year.

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So not the bad neighborhood

problem we thought it was.

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DrG: Should all animals that have

bites that are like level 5 or level 6

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bites, should all of them be considered

dangerous animals or not and why?

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Jim Crosby: By the time we get to the

level 5s and the human fatalities, for

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the fatalities for instance, pretty much

all state law requires that any dog that

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kills a human being be destroyed period.

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Uh, it's at very least declared

dangerous, but I can't think of a state

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that doesn't require the destruction.

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Level five dogs.

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Those are dangerous dogs.

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Those are animals that have not only

shown that with a single bite, they

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have little to no bite inhibition,

but have inflicted repeated bites

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at that level and caused significant

damage every time they have bitten.

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So those are dogs that I don't have a

problem with, with declaring a level

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5 biting dog as being dangerous.

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And they meet the standard in most

states for being declared dangerous.

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I believe, uh, Indiana still

doesn't have a dangerous dog law,

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but the rest of the country does.

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DrG: When a dog attacks and hurts somebody

or kills somebody, who is ultimately

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responsible for, for that fatality?

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Jim Crosby: Most often it falls to

the owner or caretaker of the dog.

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Typically, they have either done something

or failed to do something that addressed

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the behavior issues that accompanied

the bite before it got to that level.

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. Sure, people say all the time,

well, it came out of nowhere.

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If you dig in, no, they

don't come out of nowhere.

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You may not know the history, for

instance, if it's a stray you've taken in.

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But, typically, to get to that severe

an incident, there have been plenty of

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warning signs and usually lower level

precursor behaviors before they go off

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to the point that it results in a death.

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Unless it's what I call an accidental,

which as I explained before, dog

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bites you and you accidentally get

an infection from a very small bite

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and your body can't fight off the

infection and you die, that's not

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something the dog could foresee.

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DrG: If there are any, any listeners

that are animal control officers or

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investigators that want to obtain

more information on this subject,

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how can they get more resources

or how can they get a hold of you?

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Jim Crosby: The easiest way to

contact me is, uh, my email, which

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is the words CanineAggression.

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and that's spelled out C A N I

N E, not the letter and number,

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but Canine Aggression at Gmail.

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They can also contact me

at jcrosby@FAS.harvard.edu.

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Uh, that's the new Canine

Aggression Project we have

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through the Brain Lab at Harvard.

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Um, they can just simply Google

Jim Crosby Dog and I come right up.

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Um, they can also look, there's,

Uh, a book out, it's called

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Dog Bites, a Multidisciplinary

Perspective, edited by Dr.

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Daniel Mills and Dr.

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Kerry Westgarth over in the UK.

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There are a number of articles within that

book about dog bites and dog aggression.

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I wrote two of the chapters, one on

investigation and one on the, uh,

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um, physical morphology of bites.

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So, there are, there are,

uh, resources out there.

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And if somebody's really interested

in veterinary forensics overall,

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there's a program right here at the

University of Florida that I've been

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through all the way as far as it goes.

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And, uh, yeah, it's a,

it's a great program.

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And, uh, even people who may think

they've got a lot of knowledge

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about the whole subject can learn

an awful lot from this group.

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DrG: Yes, I actually, I did the Forensics

Master's, Veterinary Forensics Master's,

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so I tell anybody that's very interested

in the field of Veterinary Forensics

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that it's worthwhile because you, you

don't know what you don't know until

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you get through something like that.

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Jim Crosby: Exactly, and I completed

the same Master's, um, and then

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went and completed it as a PhD, so,

through the vet school, so, yeah, it's

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a, it's very valuable information.

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And it puts a lot of us in touch.

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DrG: Yes, right?

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That's what I really enjoy about this

conference and conferences like this.

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It's all the contacts and

the people that you meet.

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Because, again, you don't know

what resources that are out there.

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And then you come to a place like

this and then you meet people and it's

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like, Oh, I didn't know that existed.

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Jim Crosby: And

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DrG: you, if anything,

have another resource.

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Jim Crosby: Yeah, and it's always

great to be able to call up somebody

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you actually know and say, Hey,

listen, I need some advice on this.

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And, you know, I'm always, I'm

always glad to hear from others,

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uh, when they run across something

they haven't seen, you know.

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I may not know it, but

maybe I know who does.

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DrG: Excellent.

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Well, thank you very much for giving us

your time and sharing your knowledge.

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And thank you for everything

that you're doing for animals.

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Jim Crosby: Well, thank you and, uh,

best wishes to you and to the podcast

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and to all your listeners out there.

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DrG: Thank you so much.