Episode Description:

Divorce advice for women navigating emotional overwhelm, finances, co-parenting, conflict, and rebuilding confidence with attorney Nicole Sodoma.

When divorce is new and emotions are high, it can feel nearly impossible to think clearly, make financial decisions, or know what to do next. In this episode of Doing Divorce Different, Lesa Koski sits down with family law attorney, author, and certified parenting coordinator Nicole Sodoma to offer practical divorce advice for women who feel overwhelmed, afraid, or unprepared.

Drawing from 25 years of family law experience—and her own divorce—Nicole explains why emotional support and legal advice should come from different professionals, how women can begin understanding their finances, and why gathering information is one of the most empowering first steps.

Lesa and Nicole also explore why women apologize when they have done nothing wrong, how “I’m sorry” can become a way to avoid necessary conflict, and why healthy relationships require boundaries, communication, and honest conversations.

You’ll also hear meaningful divorce advice for women raising children through separation, including how to avoid loyalty binds, communicate with a difficult co-parent, and recognize that each child may experience the same divorce very differently. Nicole shares practical tools such as scheduled co-parenting communication, a shared email account for school and activity information, and the powerful biblical practice of “Selah”—pausing before responding when emotions are high.

This honest conversation offers compassionate divorce advice for women who want to make thoughtful decisions, protect their children, understand their finances, and move forward without losing themselves. Listen, save, and share this episode with someone who needs to know that she is not alone.

Timestamps:

(00:00) Introduction to divorce advice for women with Nicole Sodoma

(02:00) Nicole’s experience as a family law attorney and divorced mother

(04:40) What to do when divorce emotions feel overwhelming

(08:35) Empowering women during and after divorce

(11:00) Why women must understand their finances

(16:30) Why women say “I’m sorry” when they are not sorry

(18:15) Conflict avoidance, boundaries, and relationship repair

(21:00) Gray divorce, personal change, and evolving within marriage

(25:30) Helping children cope with separation and divorce

(27:40) How children experience divorce differently

(30:15) Staying for the children versus modeling a healthy relationship

(32:20) Prenuptial agreements and having difficult financial conversations

(37:20) Communicating with a difficult co-parent

(38:30) Using a shared email account for children’s information

(40:15) When AI may help improve co-parenting communication

(41:30) The biblical meaning of “Selah” and pausing before responding

(43:00) Final encouragement from Nicole and Lesa

Key Takeaways:

• Seek emotional support from a therapist or coach so your attorney can focus on providing legal strategy and advice.
• Learn where the money is, gather financial records, and do not allow embarrassment to keep you uninformed.
• Repeatedly saying “I’m sorry” may avoid immediate conflict, but it can prevent couples from addressing the real issue.
• Children experience divorce differently and should never be asked to carry a parent’s emotional burden or choose sides.
• Create calm, factual, and predictable co-parenting communication—and practice “Selah” by pausing before responding to a trigger.

Guest Bio:

Nicole Sodoma is a marriage-loving divorce attorney, author, certified parenting coordinator, and certified collaborative law attorney with more than 25 years of family law experience. She is the founder and managing principal of Sodoma Law, a family law firm serving clients across multiple offices and states. Nicole is also the author of Please Don’t Say You’re Sorry, a candid and compassionate book about marriage, separation, divorce, and rebuilding. As a divorced mother of three and stepparent of two, Nicole brings both professional expertise and deeply personal insight to conversations about divorce, co-parenting, finances, and life after separation.

Resource Links:

• Nicole Sodoma’s website: https://nicolesodoma.com/
• Order Please Don’t Say You’re Sorry: https://nicolesodoma.com/order/
• Sodoma Law: https://sodomalaw.com/
• Follow Nicole on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicolesodoma/
• Connect with Nicole on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolesodoma
• OurFamilyWizard co-parenting communication platform: https://www.ourfamilywizard.com/
• OsteoStrong Minnesota—Lesa’s affiliate link: https://osteostrongmn.com/affiliate-referral-koski/
• Soberlink family-law alcohol monitoring—Lesa’s affiliate link: https://www.soberlink.com/divorce/family-law?utm_source=affiliatelink&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=lesa-koski-affiliatelink

Affiliate Disclosure: Some links may be affiliate links. If you make a purchase through one of these links, Lesa may receive compensation at no additional cost to you.

Tags/Keywords:

divorce advice for women, Nicole Sodoma, Lesa Koski, Doing Divorce Different, women and divorce, divorce attorney advice, preparing for divorce, emotional divorce support, divorce financial preparation, finances during divorce, co-parenting after divorce, co-parenting communication, helping children through divorce, divorce with children, high-conflict co-parenting, gray divorce, divorce empowerment, stop apologizing, women saying sorry, boundaries in marriage, conflict resolution, life after divorce, family law attorney, parenting coordinator, collaborative divorce, prenuptial agreements, Please Don’t Say You’re Sorry, Selah pause before responding, Christian divorce support, faith during divorce, shared parenting email, OurFamilyWizard, Soberlink, divorce podcast

Welcome back to Doing Divorce Different.

2

I am so happy that you're here, and I

feel like this is gonna be such an amazing

3

conversation because I have Nicole Sodoma.

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She is wicked smart and extremely

compassionate, which I love.

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She's an attorney in North Carolina, and

I just … The things that I see Nicole

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put out on social media, she's also an

author, are so empowering for women, and I

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just feel blessed to have her here today,

and we're gonna get some great tips.

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We're just gonna start with we're gonna

talk about some tips that Nicole has for

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helping women when they're in the midst

of the white-knuckling it, and they're

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super emotional, and it's brand new, and

maybe they just found out about something.

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How can we help them, you know, use

the correct part of their brain?

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How can we help them

get in a good position?

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And then I wanna talk about as women

move on, kind of empowering them

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to have a better life after this.

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So and also, I can't help but

talk about her, her book title

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is Please Don't Say You're Sorry.

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So we're gonna talk

about that a little bit.

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Like, I say it all the time, "I'm sorry.

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I'm sorry," and then I catch

myself, and I go, "No, I'm not.

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Why would I be sorry about that?"

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So we're gonna talk about that a little

bit, and we're gonna end with, like,

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a quick couple of tips about what

you can do for your kiddos if you're

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going through a divorce right now.

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So we're gonna start with Nicole's

authentic story and get to know her

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a little better, 'cause she's very

passionate about what she does.

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So Nicole, thank you

so much for being here.

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We're really, really blessed to have you.

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Aw, thank you.

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So, um, I, I'm like I don't

even know where I should

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start in my authentic story.

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You know?

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I'm like, "Where do I start?"

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Uh, so I am, you know, by

trade, I'm a family law attorney

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and have been for 25 years.

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Um, uh, professionally, I opened

a law firm, um, uh, 18 years ago.

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And, uh, because family law was my

baby, that's what we really ended up

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doing, and now we have … I think

we're at 50 lawyers, two states.

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Wow.

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It's … The most of us, it's

what we eat, sleep, and breathe.

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So I have this really unique

perspective to not only have done

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family law for 25 years in the

courtroom, out of the courtroom.

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I'm also a parenting

coordinator, collaborative law,

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litigation, all the things.

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But then also I get to hear the

stories of- You know, 50-something

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attorneys, um, in both these states.

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And, um, also in 2019, I

separated from my then husband.

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So I had a whole new perspective on what

my clients weren't telling me and what

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I wished I'd been telling my clients.

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And yes, of course, I came

from a divorced family.

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I don't think that makes me very unique.

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Um, but, uh, that blended story,

um, did, did not really prepare

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me for being a stepparent, which

is also what I- … get to be.

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And, so, and I'm the mom of three boys

and stepparent to two, a boy and a girl,

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and it has just been an amazing journey.

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So, um, I'm still grateful for

every day, and, uh, still wonder,

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"What's gonna happen today?"

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You know?

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Well, I love that you're using the

personal things you've been through,

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which th- that's the kind of people

that I have on and that I love.

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You're using things that

you've been through and now

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you're helping other people.

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So you became a better attorney when

you went through something hard, right?

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Like your own divorce.

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And I love the idea that you

were a child who saw parents,

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you know, go through this.

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So you just have a wealth of knowledge.

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So you know.

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You've been there.

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You separated.

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So let's talk about how do you help a

woman, like, okay, I'm calling you up,

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Nicole, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, my

husband's cheating on me and I don't…

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I'm a stay-at-home mom, and I have no

idea about any finances, and, like,

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I can't even think straight and I

think I'm having an anxiety attack."

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What do we do in that moment?

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I- I'm gonna give you

a list of therapists.

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Like lawyers are very

expensive therapists.

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Yes.

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I mean, no, I mean, w- really, you know,

the best thing that, that an attorney

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can do for you, that I would want to do

for you, is just to stop for a minute

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and let's prioritize what's important.

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And so, you know, starting with that

education, starting with what really…

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You know, when you're in that

situation, everything, you want

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to second-guess everything.

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Um, the way you parent, the way

your children respond, the text

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messages and emails, and the look

you might get from your spouse.

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Everything is perceived differently

because you do feel under attack,

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or you are in attack mode because

it was your decision and you thought

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that they would respond differently.

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And so I say, uh, the people we

marry are not the people we divorce.

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Um, if you didn't like your spouse and

the reason that you want to separate

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from them is because they weren't

nice, they were abusive, guess what?

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They're not gonna be any

nicer when you leave.

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Um, and the, to the, to the spouse who

says, "I would do anything for you.

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I love you.

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I would die for you," all

these things, guess what?

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That's not who you're leaving.

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Uh, that person, that person isn't

gonna put your interests above

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theirs, especially when you decide

you don't wanna be married anymore.

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That's hard to understand, because

if you really have, like, if, if

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you both are in a place of emotional

maturity, it's gonna be a lot different.

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But if you're coming in at different

places in that decision, it is gonna

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be traumatizing, and you need to

know what your coping mechanisms are.

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Yeah.

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That is something I was not prepared for.

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In my own divorce, I did not…

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My coping mechanisms, m- I, I was

like, "What's a coping mechanism?"

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Right.

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Um, you know?

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What's a…

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You know, it, it was…

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And we had, of course, COVID happen

the next year, so, um, you know,

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it, it, it was a lot, and, um, I

think people underestimate the power

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of those emotions at that time.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, I…

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Okay, I'm so thankful that you said that,

to you refer them to a therapist, because

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they're gonna be spending a lot of money

if they're talking to their attorney.

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And so I just say, listeners,

listen to that, because you might

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not have an attorney like Nicole

that's gonna tell you that.

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So if you're dealing with high

emotions, it's kind of the thing

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you have to deal with first.

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And I like what you said, too.

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You said get the information.

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I always think educating yourself

as much as you can about the process

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is helpful, too, 'cause it can kinda

tame down those wild, you know, wild

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hairs that you've got going in you.

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So I love that piece of advice.

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Okay, so now tell me, you're

working with someone, they're

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going through the divorce.

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How do you help empower women

through the process and moving

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forward into their life?

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Beyond divorce It is, you know, um,

from a leadership perspective, and I

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don't think of leadership just in work,

like I think in leadership in life.

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And so in, uh, from a leadership

perspective, like I feel really

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strongly about leaving people

better than I found them.

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And so lifting them up is the reason

I get out of bed in the morning.

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And so, um, what I tell my kids,

what I tell my clients, what I

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tell my friends and family is,

"You are the only one in your way."

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And so it is, it might be up to you.

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And so what I want to do, it's not unusual

for me to call a car dealership and

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say, "Hey, I have a client coming that

way, and I don't want you to rob her."

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You know?

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Like, I might give you a list of, um,

apartments that are fully furnished

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because you are not gonna be in a

position to making, in making decisions.

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Like, you've got plenty of

decisions to make right now.

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Yeah.

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Especially if you have children.

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So some of the things that you can be

doing and should be doing is thinking

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about life a month from now, three

months from now, three years from now.

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Your attorney is not hired to do

that, and most attorneys are not gonna

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take those steps that I'm gonna take

because that's just me, you know?

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It, we're not a one-size-fits-all.

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Um, some attorneys might want to be

your therapist because they're like,

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"Listen, professional services, we

bill by the hour," you know, whatever.

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Right.

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So I want you to be cautious as a client

if you're going through this on…

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Yes, I want you to be empowered.

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There are things that you can be doing.

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Um, I remember when I was going

through my divorce, listen,

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I'm running a law firm, right?

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Uh, m- I was in a traditional

relationship where my husband

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took care of our family finances.

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I didn't know where all

of our bank accounts were.

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I had no idea.

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So, um, uh, I walked into big bank

and, uh, and I describe this in

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my book, like I'm so embarrassed.

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I don't know where our bank accounts are.

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Yeah.

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And I walk into the bank and I said, "Hey,

um, I think we have a bank account here,

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and uh, but I can't remember the name of

it and my husband's on a business trip."

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And damn if that lady didn't turn

her screen around and say, "What's

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your social and what's his?"

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And showed me all of our bank accounts.

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I, I didn't know that

that's where they were.

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There's nothing wrong with burying your

head in the sand, I guess, if you are

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willing to take the risk of not knowing.

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And what I discovered that day was, I

mean, I was really nervous to walk in

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and preten- like say something- Yes

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that was true, but I needed to

know, and you're not necessarily

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going to be in a position of trust.

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So you have to get out of your comfort

zone and not bury your head in the sand

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because you are making decisions for you

and probably your children in that moment.

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And so, um, you just, like what

would you do if you were not afraid?

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And ask yourself that.

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I love that

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And that it is empowering

when I see women…

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I, I've been through it myself,

where I had no idea what was

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happening w- with the finances.

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It was odd though, 'cause I took

care of all the bills, but I had

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no idea what we had, and I, it just

was, it was kind of embarrassing.

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Yes, it is.

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Like, I'm working, like I'm working

with all these financial planners

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and advisors when I'm working with

my clients, and I'm like, "I don't

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even, I don't even know the things."

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I didn't even have a budget.

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I didn't even know the things that I'm

telling my clients that they need to know.

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But I'm gonna say for every w- woman

out there, and I've been married for

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34 years, so that's crazy, I know.

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My story's different than yours.

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Yeah.

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And, um, when my husband retired is

when I jumped in, and I was like, "I

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gotta see everything we've got here.

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I've gotta figure this out."

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And like you said, it is ki- I felt

kind of ashamed, and you know what?

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We don't need that.

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We don't need to feel ashamed, because

we're telling you, we're kind of educated

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women, and we weren't even always looking.

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So don't be ashamed.

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Go dig in.

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Find out that information, and

then you have some evidence,

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"Hey, I have a little power here."

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And now, in the future, you get to

start making those decisions for

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yourself and your children on those.

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That's really powerful.

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That's freedom to be able to choose

what you wanna spend your money on.

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So I guess to kind of flip

how you think about it, right?

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Yes.

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It's a m- and, and one minute.

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It's a mindset shift, you know?

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It's amazing.

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If you want it to be, it's amazing.

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Okay.

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I read on, on the other day it said,

um, y- if you can overthink all the bad,

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you also can overthink all the good.

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Yes.

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Just give yourself permission to do that.

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And it is really…

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I, and also, like I described it, um,

and it, I actually said this to…

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I got remarried, and um, I got remarried

in 22, and the, one of the very first

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things I said to him when I met him is

going through separation is like, uh,

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being on a roller coaster of freedom

and grief, and it can happen like

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in 30 seconds or a minute or a day.

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You have no control over it, but

it is the moments of freedom you

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just like breathe in, you know?

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Yes.

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It's, it, it really is

empowering if you let it.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I love that.

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And to stay focused on that.

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That's actually kind of

biblical, you know, Nicole.

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I mean, yeah, you know, when

you read the Bible, they, God

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talks about looking for the good.

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I mean, that is a key thing in

our lives to keep our eyes focused

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on that rather than the bad.

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And when you see that, it

just kind of steers your life.

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So I love that you're talking about that.

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And now I wanna get to why, and I

know the title of your book isn't

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what your whole book's about.

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But why do we always say we're sorry?

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Why are women, why do we do that?

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I mean…

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Oh, sorry.

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I do it so often.

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Ah, you just did it.

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Yes.

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Yay.

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And you just said you're sorry.

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You're not sorry Yeah.

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It's crazy.

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You're not.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Okay Is that crazy?

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What is that- Yeah … and I mean,

I suppose awareness is the first

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way to stop, but how do you, like,

change that, flip that switch?

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You know, um, the, the I'm sorry

thing, my belief was initially

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it was just generational.

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Like, I heard my mom say she

was sorry for everything.

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Um, I, uh, remember getting in fights

with my ex-husband, and I would call

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her crying and I'm, and I had her on

my podcast, and we talked about this.

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Aw.

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Like, we- she would…

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I, I…

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He would leave, I'd be crying,

call her, and then she'd say,

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"Just call him and tell him you

love him and that you're sorry."

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And I'd say, "But I'm not sorry.

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I didn't do anything.

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At least if I did something, I didn't

know what I did, so why am I calling

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and saying I'm sorry for something that

I don't even know if I'm sorry about?"

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But it worked, and so we do it

because it's conflict avoidant.

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And the biggest problem with

that is that you never actually

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address the conflict, and when you

do, uh, it's been watered down.

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It's, you know, the, the strongest

relationships are going to be those

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that know how to handle conflict.

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They're, they're going…

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Like, conflict is going to happen.

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You are going to argue, and your,

your styles are going to be different.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or they're going to change over time,

and they're going to be different.

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And knowing what that looks like, knowing

what those boundaries are, knowing what

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your non-negotiables are- Ooh … and

making sure that they're respected, and

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what your partner's- non-negotiables

are and making sure they're respected.

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And so, um, and that's gonna require

some compromise if you want to

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be in a successful relationship.

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So I think we say I'm sorry to avoid all

that because that would be work, and we

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don't wanna work in our relationships.

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We wanna work at school and at, at work,

and we wanna work on the field, and we

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wanna work at, you know, losing weight.

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We wanna work at all these things.

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But working in our marriages?

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Like, wasn't that supposed to be easier?

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Nobody told us about that part.

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Amen.

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And isn't it amazing, don't you

wish people took it more seriously?

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Mm.

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Like, that they really understood

what they're getting into, because

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they are like, "Well, we…"

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So, so I help people divorce together most

of the time, so I have amicable, right?

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I'm not, like s- I'm

helping them work together.

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But they're always like, "Well, can't

we just, like, sign a paper and be done?

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I mean, you know…"

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Uh, no.

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You, this is a, this is a big

deal legally- Yeah … and it's

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a big deal, and it's not easy.

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Yeah.

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Marriage is not easy.

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It, I, I don't think it ever is.

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And I can't imagine it being…

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And I think when you talk about avoiding

conflict, I am a peacemaker, right?

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Mm.

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So I always want to

just be, "I'm so sorry.

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Oh…"

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And just, like, and now I'm starting to

change, you know, much to my husband's

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dismay, where I want to stand up for

what I want and, um, what I need,

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and even figuring out what that is.

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Well, and I think that's part

of gray divorce, you know?

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Yes.

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I mean, people don't…

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We, we evolve after a certain age.

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Maybe it's because our children are

no longer in lower school or whatever

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it is, or, you know, secondary school.

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W- whatever it is, I mean,

that is a real thing.

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I mean, I think that GLP-1s

were part of it, too, you know?

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Oh, you do?

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I do.

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Tell me about that.

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Well, women started loving the

way they were looking again.

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Men start, like, they found something…

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And it used to be, I mean, think

about this, it used to be that when

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you, um, saw somebody going to the

gym more often or really taking care

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of their body, it was because they

were, they left you for somebody else.

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It was like a red flag.

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Right.

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Like, "Oh, you're home late

because you went to the gym and…"

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you know, whatever."

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And now there was like a,

yeah, it was like a sign.

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Now it's the reverse.

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They're doing it during their marriages,

and the other partner either isn't doing

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it or isn't keeping up with the new

lifestyle, and they're like, "Look at me.

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Like, I feel really good about

myself, and there's change coming,

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and I feel empowered with what I can

now do that I couldn't do before."

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Right.

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"And I want you to catch up, but if you

don't catch up, this new version of me

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might need something else in my life."

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That is- That's what I think … that

is so interesting, and I have not…

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I've talked about GLP-1s on this.

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I've had dieticians on, and

I've never heard that before.

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But I love it, and I hope that,

my prayer is, that it also

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makes some marriages better.

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Oh, uh- Right?

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I, I hope so too.

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But it takes two to say I

do and one to say I don't.

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I know.

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And so, you know, either, like, y-

it's part of that communication.

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It's part of recognizing

that we are gonna change.

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The, the, you know, we are gonna change

over time, and we're experiencing life at

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a different pace or in a different way.

372

And you want your partner to

do that, at least you should.

373

Yeah.

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You should want to lean into that.

375

But when you start to not lean

in, you're gonna miss out.

376

Yeah.

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Yeah.

378

Yeah.

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I totally agree, and I think that is such

an interesting perspective, that I'm gonna

380

hold that in my brain for a little bit.

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'Cause those are kind of magic,

magic, um, medications out there

382

that are helping people feel better.

383

Yeah.

384

And I mean, it's changing,

it's changing lives.

385

I mean- Yeah … it's not

just about the weight loss.

386

I mean, that's not all, as you

probably talk to the nutritionist

387

about, like, it's not just that piece.

388

Like, it's, it has, there's so

many other benefits from them.

389

People don't wanna talk about

that, but, you know, it's- Oh

390

so amazing.

391

It, it, it's so interesting,

because it can cure lots of

392

things, like fatty liver disease.

393

I had no…

394

I mean, it, apparently it sucks all

of the fat cells out of your liver,

395

and you can kinda be young again in

your liver, which I think is so cool.

396

That is cool.

397

Yeah, yeah.

398

So yeah, it's being used all over the

place, and I think it's a great thing.

399

And I, I have a lot of natural,

like, functional assessment doctors

400

that I'm friends with, and everybody

wanted to not like it at first.

401

Yeah.

402

And they're like, she, she kept saying,

"I can't find anything wrong with it."

403

Like, no one can really find anything

wrong with it, so that's a good

404

thing, and it's a good change.

405

And I love that people…

406

And I think, too, that it's

not that that's the magic pill.

407

You still have to do the

workouts and stay healthy and

408

eat healthy foods or, you know.

409

But it's something that does help.

410

So I love that that came

into this conversation.

411

Uh, 'cause that's on all of our

minds, I think, all the time.

412

Um, okay, I promised that we would

talk about when you have kids- You have

413

so much information on Instagram, and

now we're heading back into school.

414

You know, we probably got over

a rough summer, but how can…

415

Now, you, you got divorced with kids?

416

Yes.

417

Correct?

418

How old were your kids?

419

Um, well, uh, at the time,

10 s- uh, 11, seven, and six.

420

No, uh, 11…

421

Oh my gosh, I can't believe.

422

I'm doing the math right now.

423

That's okay.

424

They were two and a half years

apart, so at the time I think

425

they were 11, nine, and seven.

426

That's tough ages.

427

It was.

428

And actually, that was a big part

of why I wanted to separate at the

429

time, because, you know, I wanted

them to experience happy marriage.

430

I noticed that I, I was

actually updating…

431

This is true story.

432

Well, I tell all the things.

433

I'm sure I'm not supposed to do that.

434

Um.

435

I was at the kitchen table, and I was

taking a continuing education course

436

on parenting coordinators, and w-

it was a whole chapter on alignment.

437

And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh

my gosh, that's what's happening.

438

I'm doing this with my children.

439

I'm align- they're a- I'm

having them align with me."

440

You know?

441

Like, I, uh, the examples that this

program was giving were examples

442

that I was living, and I started

reading about the impact on children

443

and how much damage that can do.

444

And I, that was kind of what prompted,

okay, like I need to revisit what I

445

want my marriage to look like, but also

what, how I want them to experience

446

what marriages and relationships could

look like, um, instead of what we

447

were experiencing in that real time.

448

So, um, it, uh, yes, I had

young children, and they all…

449

I think this is one of the

biggest lessons, is like they

450

all have different coping skills.

451

They all are receiving the same facts

differently, and I think parents who are

452

going through divorce don't see that.

453

And so they are, they are not experiencing

the same divorce and marriage that

454

you are experiencing, their kids.

455

And so, um, and I've, I, I saw some

of your reels on this too, like- it,

456

it, it is, you know, we, we don't

wanna put it on their shoulders.

457

Mm-hmm.

458

They, it sh- they don't, they should

never carry that emotional weight.

459

And all three of my children

experienced it very differently.

460

Um, I did a reel, uh, two days ago that

you can see on my Instagram, where, um,

461

one of my kids early on came home and,

uh, called me a name, and I was appalled.

462

And, um, and what we ended up

understanding, I was devastated

463

actually, and he cried to me and

he said, "But I think it makes

464

daddy happy when I call you names."

465

So this, you know, one of my kids was in

this moment of- Yeah … who do I believe?

466

Um, uh, you know, of course, therapists

would say like, "Is it a loyalty bind?"

467

And, uh, so it's like you might not

even realize that that's what your

468

kid is picking up on, but that's

what your kid is picking up on.

469

And so you don't realize

it in those moments.

470

So, um, my advice that I give

clients now is really different,

471

uh, post my own separation, um,

because of those experiences.

472

And so it seems like a, a, a big

adjustment in real time for parents who

473

are going through separation and divorce

to make, but it's a really big one Wow.

474

And something that you said I just have

to go back on, this was different too.

475

So many people stay in their marriage-

Mm … because of their children.

476

Oh, yeah.

477

You know- You know, I have women

crying and their kids are in

478

college, and, you know, they

wanna stay in it for their kids.

479

And I love marriage.

480

I believe in marriage.

481

I do hate divorce.

482

Mm.

483

I hate it.

484

But- Yeah, I'm a marriage,

love, and divorce attorney.

485

I mean- Yeah.

486

So yes, I do too.

487

And, and the thing is, is they

need to see a mama who's happy and

488

knows how to take care of herself

and, um, live her best life.

489

That's probably more important than

sticking with, sticking in a bad

490

situation, but that is always the s- so

often the story they tell themselves.

491

So that's so unique and interesting,

and I think can be a little bit…

492

It can make people feel a little bit

better if they've made the decision

493

that maybe it's better for their

kids, because they're not seeing a

494

good marriage, you know, right now.

495

I mean, n- normally if you say,

especially if they have a daughter,

496

if you say, "Is this the relationship

you want for your daughter?"

497

Yes.

498

Every time.

499

Mm.

500

They say, "No.

501

This is- So good … not

the relationship I want."

502

Then why are you letting her think-

Right … that it's okay for you?

503

Right.

504

And I mean, and I'm with you.

505

I mean, I'm pro-marriage too.

506

Um, but you have a part in this.

507

And, um, and i- and if it, if both

of you are not gonna come to the

508

table with the same intention to

do the work, then you are probably

509

doing your children a disservice.

510

Right.

511

Um, so it's, it's a tough,

it's a tough place to be in.

512

Yeah.

513

Um, and so often they'll say,

like I'll get clients that say,

514

"Am I doing the right thing?

515

Is this the right time?"

516

You know?

517

Yeah.

518

I get that all the time.

519

Yeah.

520

Yeah.

521

Sure.

522

Yeah, yeah.

523

And it's, you know, that's a

personal decision, but I like that.

524

Would you like your daughter

to be in this marriage?

525

Yeah.

526

Yeah.

527

I get asked the same

questions about prenups.

528

Ah, okay.

529

Prenups.

530

Do you have one?

531

In your current marriage?

532

Do I have to answer that question?

533

No, you don't.

534

But I always tell people- Um,

it- … after they've been through

535

this, I- Here's, I- I think

it makes stronger marriages.

536

Well, what it does is it, you- … have

to actually communicate- Yeah … about

537

the things that are important to you.

538

Yeah.

539

And it's so hard, because premarital

agreements are usually about money-

540

Yes … and values, and you've just

been burned, and then you're supposed

541

to, like, go- Yes … "Wait, I have

to talk about all this over again?"

542

Yes.

543

Like, this is terrible.

544

So I, I…

545

Prenups are really, they are a,

they are a great tool, and I want

546

everybody to have that conversation.

547

Yeah.

548

Whether you actually sign

it, I don't care so much.

549

Like- Gotcha … I want

you to have the tool.

550

And the, my comment about the same

question that you asked, if you've

551

got, if you're asking a parent whose

daughter is about to get married, "Are

552

you gonna have her sign a prenup?"

553

They'll go, "No, they have

a really strong marriage."

554

And I'm like, "Well, what

if she has to pay alimony?"

555

And they're like, "What?

556

Why would my daughter

ever have to pay alimony?"

557

Yeah.

558

Is it possible that your daughter

earns more than her spouse?

559

Because guess what?

560

If that's possible, like, there

might be an alimony payment.

561

Are you okay with that?

562

I tell you what, they totally

rethink what, how they feel about

563

prenups when they think about-

Yeah … a daughter paying alimony-

564

Yes … to a non-working husband.

565

It is, like, it is so interesting

to me in this generation.

566

Yes.

567

And I, I love how you're talking

about this because just talking

568

about it is the important piece- Yes

569

because you need to know how serious this

marriage is and how, how it's gonna look

570

if something ever happened, you know?

571

Because- Yeah … it's important.

572

And, and I think it's funny, I

almost think people who put that much

573

thought into it are less likely to

go through- You know what I mean?

574

To go through it.

575

Yeah.

576

Go through with the divorce later

on because they've thought through

577

this, they're in the same mindset, so.

578

I thought you were saying that

they were less likely to get

579

married, and I was like, "Oh."

580

No.

581

No, no, no, no, no.

582

Stronger marriages.

583

Sorry, sorry.

584

No, no.

585

I love that.

586

Nope.

587

I think they have stronger

ones because they've looked at

588

it, they've talked about it.

589

They take it seriously, where so many

people don't get it- Yeah … you

590

know, how important it is.

591

So I think it's a great thing to just

talk through, and I'm sorry I put

592

you on the spot with that question.

593

No.

594

Well, and I, well, I, I, I answered it

without answering it, just like a lawyer.

595

But, um- But, you know, um, what

you learn in those moments is…

596

Okay, first of all, remember that if

you're having those hard conversations,

597

it's a heck of a lot easier to have

conversations while you're getting

598

along- Yes … if you're not.

599

So, you know, you're gonna learn

so much about each other, but then

600

also- Yes … you're now learning

how to have hard conversations.

601

Yeah.

602

So.

603

Yeah.

604

Okay.

605

And I just wanna wrap up by talk-

kind of talking about the kids again,

606

because I was thinking about this.

607

S- a lot of my clients are very dedicated

to working together to make this the

608

best thing for their kids, and they slip

up, and they, you know, say bad things,

609

and they, but they're doing their best.

610

Um, but sometimes you don't have that.

611

Sometimes you're kind of

alone, and you have to be the

612

example by, by yourself, right?

613

So kinda, and, and I don't know what

your situation was like, but for someone

614

who's going through this, what advice

would you give that parent to help their

615

children when the oth- maybe the other

guy's or gal's an asshole and, you know,

616

saying bad things about you and not

doing it the right way to help your kids?

617

What can you do to kinda make

people less scared about that?

618

Um, uh, communication

style is really important.

619

And, uh, you know, one of the things-

… that I used to advise my clients on is

620

when to communicate, how to communicate,

um, h- you know, how often to communicate-

621

Yeah … what to include in your emails.

622

So this is one of the few times

that I say, you know, it's,

623

uh, probably okay to use AI.

624

Um, it needs to be less

opinion and more fact.

625

Um, there needs to be, you know, uh,

s- communication that's scheduled.

626

Like, send a note every Monday,

send a note every Friday.

627

Yeah.

628

Um, you know, putting that routine in, it

creates a schedule that you can rely on.

629

Um, and, uh, also you'll learn,

like, you're not gonna be able

630

to communicate maybe the same way

you were communicating before when

631

you were in an intact marriage.

632

It's just not n- probably

gonna happen that way.

633

Um, a second tip that I have used,

even when I was an intact family, um,

634

was we had one shared email address.

635

One parent always feels more responsible

for the communication at the school, at

636

the doctor's office, with the coaches.

637

I have used a shared email address

on Gmail for many, many years.

638

We both have access to it.

639

I don't have to spoon-feed.

640

He doesn't have to tell me.

641

Like, it is all the

coaches, all the teachers.

642

Okay.

643

The only email that we use is one

that is a joint email intended.

644

The only thing that goes into

that email is something related

645

to our kids And so I love it.

646

It's a shared calendar.

647

We have an understanding.

648

Um, anything that's on the calendar,

anything that is communicated, it's

649

all there, and it's all in one place.

650

I love that, and that helps when

they're going to school, too.

651

Oh.

652

Because then the schools know where, how

to get ahold of you, and it doesn't become

653

a big mess for the kids to try to tell.

654

Oh.

655

And you're like, "Hey,

I emailed you about it."

656

"Nope, y- if you check the joint

email, it's there- Yes … that

657

you s- sent out three days ago."

658

And so that's the only place you

communicate with the ex is in that

659

shared email, or is that where you

just get the emails about the kids?

660

So depending on your level of conflict,

you might use OFW or some other- Yeah

661

sort of platform.

662

But as far as the communication you get

to and from third parties- Yeah … use

663

that email address so you are keeping the

other informed and, and also not having to

664

do it, like not spending- Yes … the same

or on equal, uh, an unequal playing field.

665

I love it.

666

I love it.

667

That is- We've got one more, and it's

biblical, so I've gotta give it to you.

668

Good.

669

All right.

670

Um, I didn't learn this word until

just a few years ago, and the,

671

then I discovered that the word is,

like, 70-something times in Psalms,

672

and the word is selah, S-E-L-A-H.

673

And so I've looked it up in Hebrew,

and I've looked it up in the Bible,

674

and there's not a, an official

definition of it, and it's been

675

described over the centuries,

like, all kinds of different ways.

676

But here's how I think about it.

677

It's like Viktor Frankl.

678

Viktor Frankl says, "Between stimulus

and response there is space, and in

679

that space is the freedom to choose."

680

Yeah.

681

That's not actually Viktor Frankl,

but it's in his book in the forward.

682

Okay.

683

So here's my thing.

684

Selah essentially means pause.

685

It means take a minute, take a breath.

686

I love it as an analogy to, like, a song

that you're listening to, and you are, the

687

music is going, and you're all into it.

688

And then all of a sudden there's a break,

there's a pause, and you're like "Oh, God,

689

I love that song," and then it goes again.

690

And usually that's with ballads and

things- Yeah … like when you're

691

totally into it, singing in the car.

692

And, um, that word selah essentially

means before you respond Before you take

693

whatever that thing is that just triggered

you, I want you to take a minute and be in

694

the moment, and don't respond right away.

695

And I know, I hear you on your own

reels and, uh, talk about this.

696

And so I wanted you to carry

with you the tip of selah.

697

And, uh, you know, it's, it is biblical

in reference, but it comes in lots

698

of different forms and definitions.

699

But that's the way I use it,

and so that's my third tip.

700

I love it, and it's the

perfect spot to end.

701

So Nicole, thank you so much-

Yeah … for being here, and

702

for all the great information.

703

It has been such a pleasure.

704

And all your information

will be in the show notes.

705

Well, thank you, and nice seeing you.

706

Yeah, you too.

707

You take good care.

708

All right.

709

See you.