Dear Listener, has becoming a parent left you wondering what happened to your relationship? Are you and your partner fighting more, connecting less, and struggling to find your footing as a couple? Or maybe you're preparing for a baby and want to know what to look out for?

We're closing out this season with something a little different — an intimate conversation with just the two of us, no guest, no script, no prep, talking honestly about how to be a couple after becoming parents.

We went into parenthood relatively confident we could stay connected through it. After all, relationships are literally our special interest. But all our pre-baby prep — couples therapy, books about marriage after kids, and long planning sessions — none of it gave us the information we could only get once baby arrived. So we're sharing what we learned from the trenches, mistakes included, so you don't have to repeat them.

We talk about what shifted for us: what sleep deprivation and time scarcity does to a couple's capacity for repair, what happened when our intentions about gender roles met the reality of exhaustion, and the surprising thing that helped when we stopped being quite so careful with each other. We also get into postpartum rage — what it's like to feel it, and what it takes to stay present for it.

And we walk through the practice we came up with for co-regulating in five minutes or less, when a longer conversation isn't in the cards. It's a little silly and a lot of improv, and it's made a real difference — as has protecting time for date nights and our own therapy.

If you're working on reconnecting with your partner after baby, or trying to keep your marriage strong through the early years with kids, we hope something in our experience is useful to you.

One more thing, Dear Listener: this is our last episode for a few months. We'll be back in January, and we’ll miss you terribly in the meantime.

Resources and links

Hack Your Nervous System Card Deck

Polyvagal Theory Overview (video)

Have a question or comment? Email us at [email protected]. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team, go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

From The Relationship Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor, and

2

dating coach Jessica Engle, and this is I

Love You Too, a show about how to create

3

and sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: I'm dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

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on today's episode, we're gonna talk

about how to be a secure, functioning

6

couple after becoming parents, we're

so happy you're here, and please

7

remember that this show is not a

substitute for a relationship with a

8

licensed mental health professional.

9

Hello and welcome, dear listener, to this

episode all about how to be a couple,

10

ideally a secure functioning couple,

if possible, after becoming parents.

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We're gonna be sharing some of the

lessons that we've learned, some of the

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mistakes that we've made, and this will

be a little bit of a different episode

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in that we're just gonna have a very

open-ended conversation with each other.

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We haven't prepped a lot for

this episode, so you're gonna be

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hearing it pretty, um, unfiltered,

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Jessica: Yeah, um, apropos to this

phase of life, we are unable to

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be perfectionists all the time,

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. Josh: the other thing I wanna mention

up top is that this will be our

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last episode for a little while.

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We're gonna be taking a

break for about three months.

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Uh, you'll be hearing this in September.

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We'll be off October, November,

December, and then returning

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with a new episode in January.

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Jessica: Mm-hmm.

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Josh: one of the lessons we've learned

is that it's important to take breaks

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when, uh, you're a parent and you don't

have a lot of time, so that this can

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stay fresh and we can stay energized in

producing the kind of quality content

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that we wanna be producing for you all.

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So without further ado, is there

any more ado that we should

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Jessica: There, there's one more

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Josh: there's one more ado.

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There's one more ado

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Jessica: Before we get started, if

you love our show, dear listener,

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will you please leave us a rating

and review in Apple Podcasts?

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While you're there, hit subscribe

so you never miss an episode.

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Okay, now on with the show.

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No more ado.

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No more ado.

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Josh: We're done with ado.

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Uh, great.

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So, uh, where's the best

place to start with this?

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I-- One thought I have is painting the

picture of where at least I thought

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we were heading into parenting.

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Jessica: Sure

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Josh: I had the thought, like,

"Oh, we're pretty good at, at being

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a secure, functioning couple."

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Like, this is a thing we work hard at.

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We-- It's our special interest.

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We nerd out about this stuff,

as you know, dear listener, if

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you listen to the show at all.

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and we, we work hard at it, and we,

we were very good at prioritizing our

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relationship, putting our relationship

first, making sure that our connection

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was strong because in our experience, that

helped everything else in life go better,

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and that when we were not strong, we were

not connected, everything else was harder.

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and we had a lot of time.

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Mm-hmm.

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I mean, this is in some

ways an obvious thing.

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everyone says once you have a child,

you don't have time for anything.

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but I think the, the interesting little

thing here that I didn't anticipate

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here was we had a lot of time for repair

pre- Yeah … baby, and, and we used it.

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Like, sometimes it would take us a

few hours if we had a really difficult

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rupture to, uh, get connected,

get regulated again, uh, repair

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whatever came up that happened for

us, and get back on the same page.

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And we would take that time because it

felt really important to us to do that,

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and we didn't have the time to do that

in that same way once our kiddo arrived.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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And you know, in, in an ideal world,

a true secure functioning couple,

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uh, as Stan Tatkin says, scurries to

repair quickly, 20 minutes or, or less.

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And so I think that this phase has

challenged us to really hone that

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capacity to scurry, to repair.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Well, I wonder if maybe we start with,

like, an example of, uh, a typical

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rupture that we go through- Sure … and

kind of paint the picture of what

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it was like pre-baby- Okay … and

what we do now, what w- what are

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some things we've learned post-baby.

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Jessica: Great.

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Love it

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Josh: So, there are a few different,

recurring things that come up

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for us in our relationship.

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One common one is when I'm under

stress, I can get kind of negative.

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Mm.

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Uh, which can look like being

more interested in all of the

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reasons why something's not gonna

work than why it might work.

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Uh, it can look like just generally

being, like, not very positive

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in my outlook on what's gonna

happen, w- how things are gonna go.

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Mm.

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Uh, and so when, for example, you bring

me something you're excited about.

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Mm-hmm.

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And this has happened, of course, many

different times in our relationship.

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Um, I can think of one pre-baby

that I don't even remember

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the specific content of it.

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I think it was something maybe related

to our kiddo's nursery or something

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that you were like, you were excited to

try out, and I was feeling stressed and

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overwhelmed, and I'm sure I gave you all

of the reasons, like, or I might have

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even been trying to be positive, but I was

just stressed, and I was like, "Uh-huh.

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That's a creative idea, honey."

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"Uh, that's really interesting.

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Um, and I think maybe for this reason

and that reason, it's not gonna fit in

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our place, or it's not gonna whatever."

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And you can imagine if you're in

Jessica's shoes, dear listener.

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You're coming to your beloved with a

precious idea that you, of something

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you want to do together or experience

together, and your partner is like, "Nah."

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Jessica: It doesn't

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Josh: It doesn't feel good.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Well, and, and I come in, um,

to this relationship with early

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attachment wounding along the

lines of abandonment and criticism.

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And so it's a very sore spot for me

to come in and, and to say, "I wanna

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connect with you in this creative and

particular way," and then to w- hear

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what I h- what I receive as, "No," and,

"Why would you possibly bring that up?"

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Right?

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So there's sort of this underlying

message of, "What's wrong with you?"

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Yeah.

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Um, w- where that's actually

not what's happening for you.

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You're feeling uncomfortable and

probably stressed, as you said.

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Yeah.

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Or, or even anxious.

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Um, and the more insecurely attached part

of me reads that as rejection- Mm-hmm

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rather than it just being part

of your nervous system state.

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Josh: Yep, absolutely.

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Uh, but understandably painful, uh,

feeling rejected, feeling like I'm

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not welcoming your idea or joining

you in your excitement about a thing.

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Jessica: Yeah, and, and I'll,

I'll also add here that you and

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I have opposite stress responses.

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You go into more of a shutdown place.

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Yeah.

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And I go into more of a sort of

sympathetic kind of go, go, go.

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Doing a lot.

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Doing a lot.

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So I have a lot of ideas, and

I, I have survived my, um, I've

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survived my life by creating a lot.

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Um, and so it's, it's a, a

place where we can really kind

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of bump up against each other.

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Josh: Yeah, and it's, it's interesting

'cause it's-- I think there's wisdom

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in both of those places for both of us

where it's like, I need that sometimes.

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I need a little bit more of like,

"No, no, w- let's do something.

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Let's not just shut down.

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Let's not just kind of

conserve energy here."

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And I imagine, and you tell me

if this feels true to you, that

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sometimes you need a little bit of

a rein in of like, let-- Okay, cool.

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Never mind then.

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Jessica: are perfect.

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We should do all of them.

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Yes, absolutely.

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I am still learning how to fully

down regulate, on a day-to-day

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basis, particularly in relationships.

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So i- it's really good for

me to hear somebody say like,

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"Honey, we need to, like, rest."

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I

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Josh: Yeah.

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So we, we, in, in a perfect world, we

balance each other out beautifully,

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but when our stress responses hit

each other, uh, it can be hard for

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both of us, where I feel overwhelmed

and anxious and kind of like, "Ah!"

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And you feel like, "We should be going.

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Why aren't you joining

me and doing the thing?"

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Um, so pre, pre-baby, we get into this

cycle and, I remember we were, I think

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we were, we were out maybe walking around

or something on, a local downtown area

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and got into this, and we were, like, in

the car talking about it, processing it.

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We, we were, like, I think still

repairing the rupture when we got home.

160

You know, it would take a while, and

I think part of the reason it would

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take a while sometimes is let's say in

this specific instance You are bringing

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up a thing that you feel hurt about.

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Uh, I'm starting in a stressed state, so

that's not the best place to be trying

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to be warm and empathetic and repair.

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And then, uh, what frequently happens

for me is something about the way Jessica

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will share her hurt, triggers me, and I

get, like, a little defensive, or I get

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kind of like, "Well, you don't get it.

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I'm stressed.

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Why aren't you, like, supporting

me in my stress rather than,

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like, piling on more stuff?"

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And I get in this kinda like crunchy place

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Jessica: A- and to be clear, dear

listener, sometimes I'm coming in

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with, energy that I think comes

across as quite angry and critical.

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and so it makes sense

that you get triggered.

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There's, there's probably stuff from

your background, and then there's also

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just being a human being with a, a,

you know, threat detection system.

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You have someone coming at you

with a lot of criticism, you're

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gonna put some defenses up

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Josh: Mm-hmm.

180

Yeah.

181

And I think pre-baby, basically what

I would try to do in that moment,

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sometimes successfully, sometimes not very

successfully, is like bracket all of that.

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Yeah.

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Jessica: Yes

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Josh: And be like, "Okay, I need

to tend to Jessica's hurt first.

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I'm gonna put all that to the side.

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I'm still pretty dysregulated, but I'm

trying to like kind of park it basically,

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uh, and focus on what you need to feel

heard and reconnected and repaired."

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And of course, Jessica being the

sensitive, attuned individual

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that she is, she can feel that.

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You can feel that when I'm not

fully present because I'm still

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dysregulated on some level.

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And so what we would kind of like stumble

through and keep trying and keep trying

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and, like, eventually find our way to

you feeling like I am on board enough

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that you can feel safe and reconnected

and like I've heard what you're saying

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and understand why it hurt and what

might you need differently in the future.

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but that can take a while.

198

Mm-hmm.

199

Um, and I think understandably for

that, young part that comes up for

200

you, it's hard to feel safe and

settled if the attachment figure

201

who's supposed to be there with you

is not settled and, like, regulated.

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Jessica: Mm-hmm.

203

Yeah

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Josh: hard for you to feel

like, "Are you, are you with me?

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Are you not with me?"

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Jessica: Right

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Josh: so it takes a

while for us to get there

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Jessica: Yeah.

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I- it's sort of like we just kept going

previously 'cause, 'cause we had a lot

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of time- Yeah … until something that I

shared brought you back a little bit more.

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You were able to bring yourself

back a little bit more.

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and it was, kind of a rigorous process.

213

Yeah.

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And, and, you know, we also…

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w- we did talk about that on the meta

communication level in terms of, like,

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I think we both are sensitive to repair

going well, and we have had experiences

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in other relationships where, one

person bringing up a hurt means the

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other person then brings up their hurt.

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Mm.

220

And no real repair is achieved.

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And so we, we talked, I think,

relatively early on about, like,

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well, if one of us brings up a hurt,

we need to attend to the hurt first.

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And so you were really

operating by that principle.

224

Both because of how I think you you

tend towards caretaking in relationship,

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and when I'm really triggered, I

tend towards you need to caretake.

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Like- Take care of you.

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Josh: freaking take care of me right now

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Jessica: I have, I have a complaint,

and I will lodge it, and we will resolve

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it, and m- mostly you will resolve it.

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This is a very classic, dear

listener, a very classic anxious

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attachment, uh, approach.

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There is a sense of y- like, you

need to regulate me, which is

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often what happened or didn't

happen consistently early in life.

234

Um, and so there is a desire to

be ex- called externally regulated

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rather than co-regulating.

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Mm.

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Um, and it can be very much a

kind of flooding experience.

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That's my experience when I'm in it,

is like, "No, this is what is true.

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You need to make this

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Josh: need to make this right Mm-hmm

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Jessica: Uh, even though there's

always something that I have

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contributed to the moment.

243

Josh: Yeah, and it's easy for me to--

Like you're saying, I tend towards

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caretaking, towards, like, tending

to the other person before myself.

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sometimes a beautiful

quality and sometimes not.

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Sometimes it really-- I do that to

an extent of losing track of what I

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need in that moment, which actually

is worse for everybody, ironically.

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It's like I, I, I don't know if you

have this experience, dear listener,

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of, over-focusing on trying to help the

other person feel safe, but in doing

250

so, because you're not tending to what's

happening for you, it's actually harder,

251

and they don't actually feel better.

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In that setup, right?

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, Jessica in that stress state is

looking for me to regulate her,

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and I'm trying to fill that role,

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faithfully without tending to myself.

256

I'm not able to actually do the thing

that Jessica's wanting in that moment.

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Jessica: Yeah, and in, in

that way, this is the, the…

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one of the areas where we get really

stuck in an anxious avoidant loop.

259

That's actually exactly

what that is, right?

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I'm expecting you as the anxious to

regulate me, and you in your more

261

avoidant part are disowning your feelings.

262

You're basically letting go of your need

to depend on me and to co-regulate, and

263

there's, um, compliance as defense, right?

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Josh has all of the skills, right?

265

He knows how to actively listen, he

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Josh: I can say the words just so

perfectly, and it's so irritating for me

267

when saying the right words doesn't work.

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Jessica: doesn't work.

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Yeah, and so

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Josh: Which, which just to be clear, it's

very fair if I'm saying all the right w-

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I'm, I'm sure you've had this experience,

dear listener, of someone saying all

272

the right words to you, but you can

tell they're, like, subtly angry at you.

273

It doesn't feel good.

274

Yeah.

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Jessica: Well, and this is the

thing, I mean, with avoidant

276

family systems, you are expected…

277

There's different kinds of avoidant

family systems, but , there is

278

one type where you're expected

to perform in a particular way.

279

and in a way that doesn't impose

on the other person emotionally.

280

Mm-hmm.

281

And so I think that's where you go.

282

You go to a place of like, "I'm gonna

perform the thing that's supposed to

283

keep the other person kind of mollified."

284

And really what that is, is dysregulation.

285

Yeah.

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You're dysregulated.

287

Mm-hmm.

288

But you've got a really lovely-

289

Josh: I've got a good facade.

290

Yeah

291

Jessica: Uh, and for somebody like

me who comes from a background where

292

I experienced some gaslighting,

boy, oh boy, can I pick up on

293

Josh: It's one of the many ways that,

uh, we are so perfect for each other.

294

I can't get away with my, with my shit

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Jessica: really can't

Uh, 'cause she's too, I

296

Josh: 'cause she's too attuned.

297

She, she can sense it, um, which has

been a, both a very hard thing for me

298

to reckon with and also really good

'cause I've grown a lot from, like, oh,

299

I can't just do the thing that I used to

do, I'm familiar and comfortable with.

300

That'll kind of, like, get her off my

back so I can go regulate by myself.

301

Jessica: That's a really

great way of putting it.

302

In, in avoidant family systems, it's about

getting the emotional person off your back

303

so you can go and take care of yourself,

'cause there's no co-regulation available.

304

Yeah.

305

Um, yeah, I've, I think I've said more

than once that you really must have

306

wanted to grow 'cause you chose me.

307

Josh: And- And vice versa.

308

Yeah

309

Jessica: Absolutely.

310

So you were going somewhere,

uh, in this narrative that

311

Josh: Yeah.

312

Where was I going?

313

Um, so pre-baby, we would be

in this dysregulation cycle,

314

stay in it for a long time.

315

Eventually, we would find our

way out together because we were

316

like, "We're gonna stay until

we are back and connected again.

317

So we're just gonna keep going

even if it takes us hours."

318

Baby arrives.

319

As you can imagine, dear listener,

if you either have a kid or kids

320

or can just imagine what it's like

having a kid, you don't have any time,

321

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

322

Josh: particularly in the early months.

323

But like even to today, the

way that we experience time is

324

different than it was before baby.

325

And I think in the early days, it was

hard to figure that out because we

326

just had this shock to our system.

327

We were under more stress were

incredibly sleep deprived.

328

By the way, it turns out I

don't function without sleep.

329

Uh, hard lesson to learn when we

are planning on sharing, parenting

330

duties equally in the same

ways you know, we don't want to

331

reenact traditional gender roles.

332

Uh, that's maybe a, a

separate learning to get

333

Jessica: come back to that for sure

334

Josh: but suffice it to say, we

don't function well without sleep.

335

No one really does,

but I especially don't.

336

Uh, we're learning.

337

We're, we have a new child to care for.

338

We're figuring out how to be

parents, how to keep this little

339

bundle alive while, exhausted.

340

So just even in that setup, right, of

course, you're gonna have more ruptures.

341

You're stressed, you're exhausted,

you're overwhelmed, and so th-things

342

that you are f- are used to getting into

ruptures about are gonna come up more

343

frequently, probably more intensely.

344

I'll say apart from, like, the first two

weeks, I think we had, like, the glow

345

Jessica: Oh, yes

346

Josh: that where it's

like, "Woo, this is great.

347

We're exhausted," but we're

like, "We're feeling okay."

348

And then after that, it's

like, "Oh, God, we're just…

349

Yeah, we no longer feel okay."

350

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

351

One of the studies I looked at, and

I'll share a couple statistics later,

352

but one of them was basically like,

yeah, marital satisfaction was at

353

its highest two weeks after birth- at

its lowest eight years after birth.

354

I was like, ah.

355

Hmm.

356

Josh: Yeah.

357

It's like right around eight years,

you're starting to get a little more

358

time back as they're more and more

359

Jessica: there are more- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,

360

Josh: makes sense.

361

That makes sense.

362

So, so we're having, I think, more

ruptures in those early days, uh, early

363

weeks and months, and we have less time

to take care of them, less time to repair.

364

And, uh, I think that that was like

a rude awakening for us, thinking

365

like, "Oh, we're pretty good at this.

366

We, we spend a lot of time on this.

367

We practice a lot.

368

We know all this stuff.

369

We're pretty good at it.

370

Oh, wait, the skills that we

had pre-baby do not fully map,

371

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

372

Josh: ways to do rupture and repair,

to tend to conflict and stay connected

373

through this stressful moment."

374

Jessica: Absolutely.

375

We also just, like, did not have n-

like, really much, pleasurable time just

376

the two of us for a, for a long time.

377

Yeah.

378

Um, and previously, like, we,

we are best friends, right?

379

We had a lot of time to hang together,

to have pleasurable experiences

380

together, to go out, to stay in

and watch reality dating shows.

381

We've only just started getting back to

watching maybe 20 minutes of a dating

382

reality show here and there together.

383

Um, and I really think that that kind

of just, like, low-key pleasurable time

384

together was pretty big in terms of

us staying connected to one another.

385

Josh: That's a great point.

386

Yeah, that really fills our cups and

helps us feel connected and then, you

387

know, early days of parenting, right,

we're kind of almost shift passing in the

388

night because one of us has to be with

baby, and if the-- Well, if you're not

389

with baby, you're either sleeping or,

like, figuring out food or, you know,

390

attending to the, to the very basics.

391

So not a lot of, uh,

together time, really.

392

Jessica: Yeah, to survive, we've

really had to learn how to…

393

Uh, like, we have a calendar

that says when each of us is

394

taking care of our child, right?

395

And a lot of survival has been,

"You have the baby now, and I'm

396

gonna go do this other thing."

397

There wasn't actually a ton of

together time in the early days.

398

, Yeah, which is wearing,

even for two introverts.

399

Josh: Yep.

400

Absolutely.

401

And so, , how are we doing

Rupture differently now?

402

Yeah.

403

Like, I think there are a bunch

of things that we've learned over

404

the course of these two years.

405

I don't know if I can remember all of

them, honestly, or, or remember what

406

order they came in because, uh, sleep

deprivation leads to memory loss.

407

Mm-hmm.

408

You don't make as many memories.

409

Um, but maybe we can try to reconstruct.

410

I have some, some thoughts

about, uh, obviously where

411

we are now is, is very clear.

412

But-

413

Jessica: Mm-hmm

414

… Josh: uh, yeah.

415

Do you remember what some

of the early learnings were?

416

Jessica: I mean, I think one of the

very first learnings was, , we have

417

to figure out sleep Yeah, that's

true We have got to figure out sleep.

418

Like, you were a zombie for a

number of weeks, which really

419

contributed to our ruptures 'cause

I don't respond well to- Zombies

420

Josh: No, no, no zombie.

421

Jessica: zombies.

422

No, no, no.

423

I'd like a husband, not a

zombie, thank you very much.

424

Josh: Yeah, that, I think that

was a really interesting and

425

important learning that, like, sleep

deprivation hits us differently.

426

Like- Yeah … we both suffer, but

you can sleep a lot more easily.

427

You can get back to sleep a lot

more easily- Yeah … than I can.

428

I will just be up if I get up

in the middle of the night.

429

I'll be up for hours or maybe

d- not go back to sleep at all.

430

Jessica: And you can't sleep in.

431

Josh: I can't.

432

My body will just not

433

Jessica: your body's like, "We are awake."

434

Mm-hmm.

435

Yeah.

436

, Yeah, and f- for whatever

reason, I'm wired to be able to

437

handle more interrupted sleep.

438

More of a, what do they call, the

bear chronotype, so I can sleep late.

439

I can, um, I can take naps if I need to.

440

and your mental health really

suffers with interrupted sleep.

441

Josh: Yeah.

442

It's, it's, it's just

so dramatically clear.

443

Going into parenting, we thought a lot

about how we're gonna support our mental

444

health and, all the different ideas and

things we were gonna do and whatever.

445

everything else I could do

wouldn't put a dent in it if I

446

was, if I was sleep-deprived.

447

Jessica: Yeah

448

Josh: Uh, and conversely, if I got

pretty good sleep, uh, I was doing okay.

449

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

450

Like, it

451

Josh: was r- it was so remarkable

to see once we got me back on, the

452

sleep schedule that works for my body.

453

It's like, "Oh, I'm

actually not depressed.

454

I'm actually feeling pretty good."

455

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

456

Mm-hmm.

457

Um,

458

Josh: yeah, so that was

a, a really big learning.

459

And I think that maybe we take a, a,

a short tangent into gender roles- Oh,

460

Jessica: Oh yeah

461

Josh: because I think that

challenged both of us.

462

Like, like I said, going

into this, we have…

463

It's important to both of us that we are

not recreating the patriarchy, that we

464

are finding a way to have a balanced,

equitable relationship that feels good

465

to both of us, that feels like we're

sharing roles, that, doesn't just

466

default to traditional gender lines.

467

Mm-hmm.

468

Jessica: Gender lines.

469

Mm-hmm.

470

Josh: And it was a real challenge, I know,

for, for both of us, I think, certainly

471

for me to feel like, oh, I really wanna

be up, able to be up with our kiddo in

472

the night, and I will not function- Mm

473

Jessica: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

474

Josh: if I do that.

475

And for you to say, "I can take nights

even though this does not represent

476

how I wanna be in our gender roles."

477

Jessica: Yeah, it was sort of like, okay,

w- which, which difficult thing do I want?

478

Do I want a, a husband who's not

present during the day, or do I

479

want someone to help me at night?

480

And my choice was, I want a husband

to help me during the day, um, who's

481

present with me, 'cause I, I missed

you when you were really checked out.

482

Yeah.

483

and it wasn't…

484

You know, it's gone in and out

of being an easy and not easy

485

decision as time has gone on.

486

Like, extended sleep

deprivation's real hard.

487

… One thing I, I don't think I anticipated

was how long sleep would be interrupted,

488

and the cumulative impact over time.

489

Like, I think I had some sort of false

notion that, like, sleep's hard for,

490

like

491

six months.

492

And

493

Josh: And then they figure it out

and they sleep through the night.

494

Jessica: the night.

495

And that's true for some kids, absolutely.

496

It is not true for our child.

497

Um, and we have a child

who doesn't sleep a lot.

498

sort of like low end of, of

average needs, so not the, the

499

lowest sleep needs child ever.

500

But, you know, our peers were

having, like, three-hour naps in

501

the middle of the day, and we were

like, "Yeah, they're sleeping 20

502

minutes and then waking up, and…"

503

Josh: Yeah.

504

That sounds nice.

505

If only

506

Jessica: Um, and we've really, I think,

had to accept because they're a low sleep

507

needs child, which means they drop naps

earlier, they have more sleep transitions

508

basically sooner, and because of how

sleep deprivation impacts you, that

509

we're constantly fine-tuning our sleep.

510

Yeah.

511

Constantly.

512

Yeah.

513

and as I was saying, it's, it's

been kind of an easy decision and

514

a hard decision for me over time.

515

easy in the sense that it was clear to me

that I wanted you present during the day.

516

Easy in the sense that I'm somebody

who can take a lot on, uh, and

517

I've, I really learned that early.

518

And there's another part of me that

pops up that's resentful about that, and

519

that part is connected to the part of

me who's fully aware of the imbalances

520

in the world, you know, for a cis man

and a cis woman in, in relationship.

521

and so it has been, yeah, I think a

journey for us to figure out how to hold

522

all of that and talk about all of it and

m- get to a place where it feels balanced.

523

I think one of the things that I've

had to learn is that if there's an

524

imbalance, that you don't seem to be

noticing, that that is not malicious.

525

Hey, do it I, I think there is a part

of me that can feel taken advantage

526

of because- Yeah … frankly, I've

been taken advantage of, right?

527

Josh: a reasonable place to go

528

Jessica: Yeah.

529

And this is, I think, one of the things

in relationship that, that can be

530

especially hard for those of us who've

survived a lot of trauma to remember.

531

But it can be true for really anyone

because of the way our brains are wired.

532

You are my partner, and you are on

the same team with me, and it…

533

I couldn't forget that.

534

I couldn't really, like, not even

realize I've forgotten it, but start

535

to see you as working against me And

so that has been one of the things

536

I've had to learn is when there's an

imbalance, to bring it up, with a soft

537

start in the Gottman nomenclature.

538

So to be, you know, kind about it,

while being real, and to move from…

539

Like, to, to give myself space

to express some of my feelings,

540

but also to move into, how do we

rebalance this relatively soon?

541

Because ultimately what helps

with that is when you…

542

So you ultimately took on

more childcare during the day.

543

Mm-hmm.

544

And I think about that regularly, that

you're doing more childcare during

545

the day, and feel really grateful- Mm.

546

-and feel like it's very generous.

547

Mm.

548

Even though, you know, it's about

equalizing things, another man

549

would have been like "Sorry, babe.

550

Um, you're so much better at being, uh, a

551

Josh: You know how to soothe

them better than I do.

552

They just wanna be with you

all the time, so it's fine

553

Jessica: with you all the time.

554

Yeah.

555

It's fine.

556

Yeah.

557

Um, yeah.

558

So I, I just, I feel grateful that

we've, over time, been able to

559

find a balance that f- feels good.

560

Mm.

561

Um, and the, and the agreement with us is

I take nights, and then I get to sleep in

562

And so you handle more in the

mornings and sometimes, or often

563

more in the afternoons as well.

564

and that ultimately, that behavioral

rebalancing, really feels good to me

565

Josh: Yeah.

566

I've heard people talk about this

before of like, "Oh, equitable doesn't

567

mean that you're all doing fifty-fifty

of all the same things, that you're

568

dividing the things up in ways

that feel balanced to both of you."

569

But I think it challenged me more

to have it show up really in these

570

traditionally gendered areas, uh,

and to have it fall somewhat, in

571

some ways, in some ways not, right?

572

Like you're saying, I'm doing more

childcare during the day, so in that

573

sense, not traditionally gendered.

574

But, yeah, I just-- The other thing

that I wanted to mention on this topic

575

before we circle back to learnings

around rupture and repair is I remember

576

talking about, gender imbalances and,

and places where we were defaulting to

577

more traditional gender roles earlier in

parenting and realizing, oh, we do that

578

when we don't have an explicit plan about

how we're attending to these things.

579

Which makes sense.

580

They're unconscious biases, right?

581

And so, uh, under stress, without

conscious thought about it, it's

582

very natural, at least for, it was

for us, and maybe it will be for

583

you too if you're in a heterosexual

relationship, to default to traditional

584

gender roles when you don't have an

explicit, like, who's doing what right

585

now, or how are we splitting this up?

586

And that meant that we really needed

to be very conscious about, oh,

587

no, no, this is how we wanna do it,

regardless of where we might default to.

588

This is how we wanna make sure we know

who's, uh, point on childcare during the

589

day or when we're at a gathering with

other people, so it doesn't just default

590

to, uh, Jessica 'cause she is the woman,

is hanging out with the kid, right?

591

Uh, and so it's been, I think,

really eye-opening to both see the

592

places where our biases came out,

got expressed, and also then to be

593

very conscious about, like, here's

how we wanna do that differently.

594

and that once we do that, it feels

more balanced, and we feel like

595

we're, we're doing the roles in

the, in the ways we want to be.

596

Jessica: Yeah, and I think it's, it's

an ongoing conversation that we have,

597

and I think coming back to, there's

sort of two parts of it for me.

598

There's, uh, rebalancing things

through our actions, and then there's

599

the feelings, and I think there's

also been a part of this that's

600

been creating space for my anger.

601

that there's something called postpartum

rage- Mm … um, which there's, like,

602

support groups for it and everything.

603

There's, like, a, a lot of women

who because of the hormones, but

604

I, I think also because of the

gender imbalances- The patriarchy

605

because of the patriarchy, you know, they,

they go through this, this incredible

606

transition where they realize they are the

creators of life and really get the, uh,

607

fuzzy end of the lollipop, so to speak.

608

There's a lot of things to be angry about.

609

There's

610

Josh: Say like, there's a lot of

things to be angry about Yeah.

611

There's very justified rage-

Yeah … to be had as a new mom

612

Jessica: mom.

613

And boy, are hormones also very powerful.

614

So there's a combo of things.

615

There's sleep deprivation.

616

So I think, uh, that has been the

other piece for us, is like how do

617

we create space for my anger, and

also how do I take responsibility

618

for ways that my anger might come

out that doesn't work for our system?

619

and it's been both/and.

620

I've really had to learn how to

channel that kind of intense energy

621

creatively, uh, productively, and I

think you've had to learn how to bear

622

witness to my anger more and more,

and to, to hear, uh, my sacred rage,

623

so to speak- Mm … as not personal.

624

Josh: Yeah.

625

I think as someone who grew up in a

family where anger was not expressed

626

directly hardly ever, it's an emotion

that I struggle with sometimes.

627

It can feel very scary to have

someone be very angry, particularly

628

with me, but just angry generally.

629

, and Finding the ways to both be present

with your anger when it is safe,

630

you're not gonna cause harm, and also

to, like, put up some boundaries when

631

there are things that's like, "Oh,

no, I, I really don't like that."

632

It's, it's been an interesting dance

for me to find, like, where is the

633

place where I can and need to grow

my capacity to be with anger and

634

whereas actually some of the skill

is like, "Cool, this is an expression

635

of anger that I actually don't like."

636

Mm.

637

And be able to kind of hold both

of those things, which is, like, I

638

think in some ways part of creating

the container for the anger, right?

639

Is you have to be able to

say, like, "Well, no to that."

640

Mm-hmm.

641

Like, anger is welcome here, and

also, like, not just un- unfiltered,

642

Jessica: Ja.

643

Josh: undirected.

644

Um, there's a way to, like, contain

a little bit without squashing.

645

Yeah.

646

Does that feel fair?

647

Jessica: Uh, it does feel fair, and,

you know, I've been on a long, long

648

journey with anger where, early in my,

uh, young adulthood, I couldn't feel

649

really any feeling aside from sadness.

650

and getting in touch with my anger

over time meant being able to set

651

more healthy boundaries and get into

healthier and healthier relationships.

652

I think there has been a way in which

I kind of like have swung to the other

653

side of the spectrum with anger, where

I now have a fully clear channel.

654

Josh: have

655

Jessica: No static.

656

Um, and this is the thing we're

teaching our toddler, right?

657

How do you channel that energy,

which is really important, into some

658

sort of physical act or words , so

that it, it is contained in a way

659

that is okay for society, right?

660

Like, it…

661

I think there is a part of me that wishes

you as my attachment figure could just

662

handle my anger regardless of how it

looks, and the truth is, you're another

663

nervous system, another human being.

664

You're gonna have reactions to how I

express myself, just like any human being.

665

So I think, this is sort of a long

walk to say, like, I'm going through my

666

own maturing process, and this is true

in many ways as we're parents to a, a

667

little one, where the places where I,

I haven't gotten to full integration,

668

I'm really being challenged to do that.

669

Mm.

670

And I've done a lot of work around anger,

and this is the sort of like one of the

671

last bits, I think, is like having enough

capacity to channel and regulate, , so

672

that you are comfortable enough being

in the presence of my anger while you're

673

also working on your sort of comfort zone.

674

It's both and,

675

Josh: Yeah.

676

yes to that for me too, right?

677

Because in our relationship, the

places where I'm getting to both

678

expand my capacity to be with your

anger and also set loving limits, I'm

679

getting to do that with our kiddo.

680

Jessica: Yes

681

Josh: And that is an important skill

set for me to be with their big feeling.

682

Like, they have some big feelings, right?

683

They're gonna like, uh…

684

And, finding my center to be with

that without being thrown off while

685

helping them channel but not squash.

686

Mm-hmm.

687

So that they know that

their anger is safe.

688

-- They can be angry.

689

They can be angry with me.

690

They can have whatever feeling they're

having in a safe way, and I will both be

691

there with them in it and not go away.

692

And also help them know what

to do with it, where to, how

693

to direct that energy well.

694

And also figuring out how to

be with my own anger, honestly.

695

Like, that's part of it too.

696

That is, uh, a emotion that has

long been a challenge for me to

697

be present with and direct well.

698

So that's, that's also part of it

699

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, coming back

to what we've learned in, in, about

700

ruptures in this period, there have

been some ruptures where things moved

701

when I was like, "Can we just fight?"

702

Josh: It-- Yeah, th-that's absolutely

true, where it's like, let's just

703

both be angry right now and, uh,

we were just, like, a little less

704

careful, a little less, like, trying

to do it right and a little more

705

like there are things that need to

be said here that need to come out.

706

And the, the funny thing, I think for

me, the, the worried place that my brain

707

goes around stuff like that is like,

"Oh, we're gonna say things we regret.

708

We're gonna just be, like, dysregulated

because we're dysregulated, and

709

then, like, things are gonna come

out, and it's gonna hurt one or

710

both of us, and then it's gonna

take longer," and yada, yada, yada.

711

And I think the truth has been

in those moments, we actually

712

just say things pretty kindly.

713

Like, w-w-we're just not

holding back anymore.

714

Yeah.

715

We're saying the thing that needs

to be said, but we're still t-

716

ninety-nine percent of the time,

actually saying it pretty kindly.

717

We're just being pretty direct rather

than, like, feeling like we need to-

718

Jessica: Yeah

719

Josh: be very cautious.

720

Yeah.

721

Jessica: I think what we're talking

about here is we are, in terms of

722

the types of couples, we can be

723

I don't know if we're conflict

avoidant, but we can be careful.

724

Can be careful.

725

Josh: You can be careful, yeah

726

Jessica: We can be very careful, and

one of our couples therapists that we've

727

worked with has explained to us that

careful actually can feel quite unsafe

728

'cause something's not being said, right?

729

Josh: And there's a, there's

a, a feeling in the space of

730

if I say it, it's gonna be bad.

731

Mm-hmm.

732

Like, something bad will happen.

733

Mm-hmm.

734

Therefore, danger

735

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

736

Therefore, danger.

737

Yes.

738

Yeah, and it kinda makes me think

about our single clients who

739

are really afraid of flirting

and expressing erotic interest.

740

They often over-correct a lot, and

when we have them flirt, it's like,

741

you know, maybe the- we'll practice

flirting with them, and we'll be like,

742

"Oh, boy," like, "you think you're gonna

harm someone with how you're flirting,

743

and I can't even tell you're flirting."

744

Mm-hmm.

745

Right?

746

Josh: Right

747

Jessica: there's a way in which when

we've corrected so much, coming back

748

the other way can feel really intense.

749

Yeah.

750

But it is actually totally within

the realm of n- healthy and normal.

751

Yeah.

752

Um, for another type of couple, for

more high passion, high conflict, y-

753

you know, you d- dear listener, if

you're in that kind of relationship,

754

you're gonna have a different journey.

755

Uh, you are probably gonna need some

tools for reigning things in more.

756

Um, but I think ours is

definitely the story of a

757

Josh: Unleash the reins a little bit more

758

Jessica: Yeah, and, and even,

I don't even know if that's…

759

That's maybe a little bit black and white.

760

Like, I think you often need to

un- unleash the reins a little bit.

761

Yeah.

762

And I need to, Lean into, and we'll

get into this, co-regulation rather than

763

asking you to externally regulate me.

764

and, focus less on what you're

doing wrong and more on what I

765

need, expressing that directly

766

Josh: Well, let's maybe talk a little

bit about co-regulation , because

767

I feel like this was one of the

biggest learnings for us, was like

768

finding how we do co-regulation

so much better than we did before.

769

Yeah.

770

maybe I want to go back, like, a, a

small step and I-- to say I think one

771

of the learnings along the way of the

last two years was in order to make

772

things more efficient, right, we don't

have a long time to repair ruptures.

773

It's really helpful to tend to

our dysregulation before we try to

774

talk about the contents- Mm-hmm.

775

-of the rupture.

776

Jessica: Yeah.

777

Josh: And so that can look

like a lot of different things.

778

, For example, just to give you

a sense of what I mean, right?

779

In that same rupture we were talking about

earlier, Jessica's coming in with an idea.

780

Let's say, for example, uh, she wants to

change the nursery, do a little redesign,

781

and I'm like, "Meh, we're overwhelmed.

782

I don't have time for this.

783

This is exhausting."

784

I don't say it quite like that, but

that's kind of the energy of it.

785

Uh, I say it more politely.

786

Jessica: It's still a vibe.

787

Josh: but still, it's the vibe.

788

Um, instead of kind of going into

our long, hour-long, it's like,

789

okay, uh, you bring up your hurt.

790

I notice that I'm dysregulated,

and I might say something like

791

This is important to me.

792

I wanna talk about this, so I wanna make

sure you feel heard and, and repaired.

793

Can we co-regulate first?

794

Yes.

795

And what that might look

like is just d- very concrete

796

examples of things we've done.

797

Sometimes we just look at, like, pictures

of our kiddo, um, or our cat or both, and,

798

like, that is enough to help us, like, ah-

799

Jessica: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

800

Josh: Mm-hmm

801

come back online.

802

we've done just some, like, breathing,

some breathing stuff together.

803

Yeah.

804

Uh, we've gone for

walks, I think, sometimes

805

Jessica: We have a, a deck we can link

to, dear listener, that has different

806

cards you can pull from with activities

for regulating your nervous system

807

Josh: It's really great.

808

It's probably the best deck

I've ever come across for

809

Jessica: I love it.

810

It's a lot of evidence-based stuff,

and it'll have things like do a

811

child's pose and give you different

variations of the child's pose.

812

And, um, sometimes we'll

do a little drama therapy.

813

We'll, we'll be a little silly together.

814

That can be really helpful.

815

So the, the idea here, dear listener,

is that, The, the first step of this,

816

of course, is recognizing that you

or your partner is dysregulated.

817

Um, I have a bunch of, um, videos on

polyvagal theory that can help you

818

learn how to recognize whether you're

dysregulated, um, that we can link

819

to if that is a newer skill for you.

820

so we recognize we're dysregulated, and

then we pull on a very concrete practice

821

to bring in more regulation, which

essentially means helping our nervous

822

system feel more safe in the moment.

823

Because if we, if we don't feel safe,

we're not gonna think clearly, we're

824

not gonna solve problems well, we're

not gonna be able to be emotionally

825

present for one another in the repair

826

Josh: And, uh, oftentimes

we do that together.

827

That's our kind of ideal if we can.

828

There have been occasions where one

of us is really, really dysregulated,

829

or both of us, and we need to take a

moment apart to do some self-regulation

830

and then come back together.

831

And I think that was also a big learning

for us is that's important, and that's

832

a, a good - tool in our toolkit.

833

We don't like being apart.

834

We like to kind of go through conflict and

get to feeling connected again together.

835

Uh, and that's just not always

possible when you have a kiddo that

836

needs your attention, needs your care.

837

And so sometimes it's really

important to be like, "Okay, great.

838

We're gonna come back to

this in thirty minutes.

839

we're gonna separate, or we're

gonna, we're gonna sleep on it

840

'cause we really need to get sleep."

841

As we, as we said earlier, sleep is

the number one thing for both of us.

842

Uh, so we're gonna come back to

it in the morning even though

843

it doesn't feel good right now.

844

We don't like going to bed

in the middle of rupture.

845

I personally hate it.

846

It's one of my least favorite things.

847

But it helps.

848

Jessica: Yes

849

Josh: And helps us come

back, uh, more regulated

850

Jessica: Yeah, and the two keys there,

dear listener, are the Gottman's,

851

, research shows that about 30 minutes

is what a nervous system needs to

852

regulate through taking a break from

a conflict, and it's ideal to do

853

something that's not cogitating on the

conflict while you're taking that break.

854

and the other piece is to

have an agreement about when

855

you're coming back together.

856

Without that, uh, it can

actually be quite dysregulating.

857

Josh: Feel very stressful if you don't

know when you're coming back together

858

Jessica: when you're coming back together.

859

Josh: I wonder if we wanna give a little

demo of where we landed with our process.

860

Sure.

861

Um, because as Jessica was saying,

like first you need to notice if

862

you or your partner is dysregulated.

863

And sometimes you will have the

assessment that your partner is

864

dysregulated and maybe you're not.

865

You don't think you're dysregulated.

866

We have found it is not a

very good practice to say, "I

867

think you're dysregulated."

868

Jessica: turns

869

Josh: Exactly.

870

"Do you wanna do some regulation?"

871

No.

872

That doesn't tend to go well.

873

Uh, and so w-we'll demo actually

what, uh, we've come up with a

874

little way of doing it that works

really well for us that you can feel

875

free to borrow if, if you like it.

876

Essentially the idea is I think

owning I need some regulation.

877

Yeah.

878

Whether or not you think it's you,

'cause you probably do if your

879

partner's ir- dysregulated, you're

often at least a little dysregulated.

880

Uh, but owning it can help the other

person join you and not feel like

881

they're being made the problem here.

882

Yeah.

883

Um, but more like we as a system

could use some regulation.

884

So this is, uh, one…

885

What did we call this?

886

Um, wait, don't, don't remind me.

887

I wanna remember it on my own.

888

Jessica: Okay

889

Josh: Uh This is our, our CARP.

890

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

891

Josh: cra- crap PARC

892

Jessica: Uh, PARC?

893

Josh: PARC.

894

Process for

895

Jessica: it's, it's not a great acronym.

896

Josh: a great- Okay.

897

If you have a better acronym for

us, let us know how to, um…

898

So this is our process for co-regulation

899

Jessica: Hey, Josh, I think I

could use some co-regulation

900

Josh: Yes.

901

And let's, let's do

some stretching together

902

Jessica: Yes, and before

we do that, you're cute.

903

What's your, uh, dysregulation level?

904

Zero to 10.

905

10 is the most dysregulated possible

906

Josh: I'm at, uh, I'm, yeah,

I'm at like a four right now.

907

Jessica: Okay.

908

Josh: What about you?

909

Jessica: I'm like a seven.

910

Josh: Okay, great.

911

Mm-hmm.

912

Let's do it.

913

Jessica: it.

914

Okay.

915

We set a timer for five

minutes of stretching

916

Josh: Yep.

917

Stretch, stretch,

918

Jessica: stretch

919

stretch, stretch

920

Josh: Get to the end of it,

and I'll say, "I love you."

921

I love you too.

922

Jessica: I love you too

923

Josh: What's your dysregulation level?

924

Jessica: I'm probably like a five now

925

Josh: Okay, great.

926

I'm at, uh, let's say

at, I'm at, like, a three

927

Jessica: Okay.

928

And we probably would rinse and

repeat since I'm at a five still

929

Josh: Yeah, we're, we're targeting to get

down to a three or below for both of us.

930

That's

931

Jessica: That's

932

Josh: of what we've found is

like, okay, we're like regulated

933

enough to be able to do stuff

934

Jessica: Yeah.

935

Yeah.

936

Our prefrontal cortex, our, our sort

of adult brain is online enough,

937

three or lower, to like actually have

a conversation that goes somewhere.

938

So the things you might have noticed in

there, dear listener, the, the formula

939

is one person suggests co-regulation.

940

The other person says, "Yes, and."

941

And th- well, they…

942

Before they do that, they assess,

943

Josh: And will they, before they

do that, they assess, do I honestly

944

have five minutes right now?

945

Jessica: now?

946

Yes.

947

Thank you.

948

Mm-hmm.

949

Mm-hmm If

950

Josh: If you honestly don't have

five minutes right now, you can

951

say no, 'cause that's important.

952

Choice is important.

953

, But most of the time when I think I don't

have five minutes, I actually do have

954

five minutes, and when I am-- 'Cause,

because we've made this agreement, and

955

I pause and reflect and like, "Okay,

I feel like I have to go do this thing

956

right now, but actually, I can take five

minutes to do this thing with Jessica."

957

Jessica: Yeah.

958

And that's been a big learning in

this phase for you, I think, is that

959

when you're stressed, you tend to

think you have no time, and that we

960

should prioritize getting everything

done- Yes … over our relationship,

961

and it's actually the other way

962

Josh: It's the other way around.

963

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

964

That's how we make everything go better.

965

Mm-hmm.

966

Josh: So, uh, assuming that you have

assessed and you say, "Yes, I do, even

967

though I'm grumpy about it, have five

minutes right now," you say, "Yes," and,

968

uh, propose what you would like to do

for those five minutes of co-regulation

969

Jessica: Yes.

970

And then it pops back to the other person.

971

That was me.

972

I said, "You're cute."

973

We added that 'cause

974

Josh: Makes us giggle a

little bit usually Yeah

975

Jessica: it's fun.

976

Uh- It's stable a little bit usually.

977

Yep.

978

And then we check in on each other's

dysregulation level so that we can really

979

track how dysregulated are we and how well

does the, the co-regulation practice work

980

Josh: Yeah.

981

Because, uh, if you're not very

dysregulated, five minutes might be great.

982

But if you're pretty dysregulated,

at the end of five minutes, you're

983

probably not gonna be at three or below.

984

Mm-hmm.

985

So it's important to kind of have a sense

of that and know, like, "Okay, we're

986

probably gonna need to do a little more

987

Jessica: do Mm-hmm,

988

Josh: if we're gonna proceed here."

989

Jessica: proceed.

990

It can also be really, I think,

like clarifying and validating.

991

Like, sometimes when we give

our numbers, I'm like, "Oh,

992

that's why this feels weird."

993

Josh: Oh, Josh is at a seven.

994

Oh, okay.

995

No wonder he's gnarly.

996

Jessica: Or I'm at a seven.

997

Yeah.

998

Josh: Yeah.

999

Sure

00:48:56,121 --> 00:49:00,661

Jessica: Uh, yeah, and then you do

the co-regulation practice faithfully.

00:49:01,293 --> 00:49:05,743

Josh: And then the person who did not

suggest it originally says, "I love you."

00:49:06,333 --> 00:49:09,453

Again, another just way to like inject

a little bit of play and a little

00:49:09,453 --> 00:49:13,453

bit of like reminder that we're on

a team and we care about each other.

00:49:14,123 --> 00:49:16,663

Uh, and what's your dysregulation level?

00:49:16,783 --> 00:49:19,863

That's our check-in after we've

done it, and, uh, the other

00:49:19,863 --> 00:49:20,873

person will share as well.

00:49:21,153 --> 00:49:24,803

And then, uh, like you said, rinse and

repeat if you are still dysregulated

00:49:25,825 --> 00:49:26,148

Jessica: I still was very good at it.

00:49:26,148 --> 00:49:29,205

Yeah, and I'll just say in here that

we, we came up with this in part

00:49:29,205 --> 00:49:30,945

because we would be in ruptures.

00:49:30,975 --> 00:49:35,005

We knew, okay, we probably need to

focus on being at a three or lower

00:49:35,005 --> 00:49:36,695

before we really get into something.

00:49:37,005 --> 00:49:41,185

We're gonna focus on co-regulation first,

and often what that looked like was Josh

00:49:41,185 --> 00:49:43,935

being like, "So I think we need to-" Maybe

00:49:44,225 --> 00:49:45,565

co-regulate.

00:49:46,255 --> 00:49:53,745

Um, and me being like, "Hmm, fine,"

and then not really contributing.

00:49:54,325 --> 00:49:56,695

I think this has happened the

other way around some of the

00:49:56,897 --> 00:49:57,707

Josh: certainly have

00:49:57,785 --> 00:49:57,865

Jessica: Yeah, truly.

00:49:57,875 --> 00:50:03,225

Um, so I'm poking a little bit of fun at

myself here, and I think that you, you

00:50:03,225 --> 00:50:07,255

did very understandably bring up like, "I

would really love it if we're following

00:50:07,255 --> 00:50:09,775

this principle of co-regulation first.

00:50:09,785 --> 00:50:13,175

If when I bring up co-regulation, it

doesn't feel like I'm, like, dragging

00:50:13,175 --> 00:50:17,775

you through the mud to get there and that

you're, like, protesting the whole way."

00:50:17,775 --> 00:50:18,985

And I was like, "Yeah, that's fair.

00:50:18,985 --> 00:50:21,695

That's not really, like,

being on a team behavior."

00:50:21,935 --> 00:50:25,345

It's understandable behavior for being

super flooded- Yeah … and frustrated.

00:50:26,035 --> 00:50:33,405

Um, so having a practice, one that taps

into our love of improv, our yes, and

00:50:33,755 --> 00:50:36,135

principles, um, has worked really well.

00:50:36,175 --> 00:50:40,105

We know w- like, if somebody says, "Hey,

let's co-regulate," the other person has

00:50:40,105 --> 00:50:43,605

the time, it's now their turn to suggest

something even if they don't want to.

00:50:43,615 --> 00:50:43,635

Yeah.

00:50:43,865 --> 00:50:44,105

Josh: Yeah.

00:50:44,425 --> 00:50:44,805

Which can…

00:50:44,915 --> 00:50:48,695

Even in that, I've found when I,

especially when I'm, like, feeling grumpy,

00:50:48,695 --> 00:50:53,095

I can then act out my grumpiness a little

bit- Mm-hmm … in a way that is not shut

00:50:53,095 --> 00:50:54,315

downy, 'cause I'm still saying yes, and.

00:50:54,435 --> 00:50:55,695

I'm like, "Yes, and…"

00:50:55,785 --> 00:50:56,175

Okay, here's this thing.

00:50:56,175 --> 00:50:56,505

Be a little playful.

00:50:56,751 --> 00:50:57,321

Jessica: Yes.

00:50:57,351 --> 00:50:58,791

You get to be really playful with

00:50:58,865 --> 00:51:01,015

Josh: to be playful with it,

which already starts to l- like,

00:51:01,015 --> 00:51:05,565

help me regulate a little bit w-

while I'm still joining you- Yeah

00:51:05,645 --> 00:51:08,495

if you're suggesting co-regulation,

rather than, like, if I was acting out

00:51:08,495 --> 00:51:12,665

my grumpiness without saying yes, and,

it then doesn't feel so fun for you

00:51:12,725 --> 00:51:13,395

Jessica: Totally.

00:51:13,555 --> 00:51:14,045

Totally.

00:51:14,495 --> 00:51:19,995

Yeah, and pro tip, when somebody yes ands

you, dear listener, if you use this and

00:51:20,015 --> 00:51:23,725

offer something and you don't wanna do

that thing, um, keep your mouth shut.

00:51:26,115 --> 00:51:26,875

Do the thing.

00:51:29,335 --> 00:51:31,135

This is where you yes

and they're yes anding.

00:51:31,135 --> 00:51:31,145

Uh.

00:51:31,145 --> 00:51:31,185

That's a good point.

00:51:31,185 --> 00:51:31,225

That's a good point.

00:51:31,225 --> 00:51:31,275

Yeah, 'cause like they get…

00:51:31,275 --> 00:51:31,335

They chose the thing, and, uh-

00:51:31,667 --> 00:51:32,587

Josh: That's a good point.

00:51:32,797 --> 00:51:33,617

That's a good point.

00:51:34,107 --> 00:51:37,517

Yeah, 'cause like they get, they

chose a thing and, uh, you know,

00:51:39,077 --> 00:51:41,097

they're your partner, they're

not gonna choose something awful

00:51:41,167 --> 00:51:41,387

Jessica: Yeah.

00:51:41,797 --> 00:51:45,027

Josh: it's I mean, let's be clear.

00:51:45,027 --> 00:51:45,067

If there's something you-

00:51:45,167 --> 00:51:50,077

Jessica: actually are a no, like a, a

hard no to, of course actually say no.

00:51:50,087 --> 00:51:50,347

But

00:51:50,495 --> 00:51:50,715

Josh: Right.

00:51:50,847 --> 00:51:54,417

Jessica: if it's just like, "I

was gonna suggest something else,"

00:51:54,457 --> 00:51:56,877

then suggest it in the next round.

00:51:56,943 --> 00:51:57,163

Josh: Yeah.

00:51:57,341 --> 00:51:58,269

Jessica: Life in

00:51:58,269 --> 00:51:58,733

front

00:51:58,813 --> 00:52:00,403

Josh: I prefer to do this

other thing instead of

00:52:00,589 --> 00:52:01,517

Jessica: things, so…

00:52:01,517 --> 00:52:03,737

Yeah, this is all about

getting back on a team

00:52:03,887 --> 00:52:04,217

Josh: Mm-hmm.

00:52:04,877 --> 00:52:07,477

And so behaving like you're on a team

helps you remember that you're on a team

00:52:07,895 --> 00:52:10,115

Jessica: Which brings me back to

one of the statistics I wanted to

00:52:10,429 --> 00:52:10,909

Josh: Oh, great

00:52:11,265 --> 00:52:16,425

Jessica: Um, so the Gottmans found that

almost two-thirds of couples report a

00:52:16,425 --> 00:52:20,565

decline in relationship satisfaction

up to three years after having a baby

00:52:20,735 --> 00:52:21,085

Josh: Wow.

00:52:21,675 --> 00:52:22,235

Wait, how many?

00:52:22,235 --> 00:52:23,215

Two-thirds.

00:52:23,215 --> 00:52:23,775

Two-thirds.

00:52:23,775 --> 00:52:24,035

Geez

00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:26,839

Jessica: What did the one third

of couples that reported positive

00:52:26,839 --> 00:52:28,149

results do differently, you think?

00:52:28,949 --> 00:52:31,049

Josh: I think they took drugs

00:52:33,507 --> 00:52:34,237

Jessica: It's possible.

00:52:34,299 --> 00:52:34,409

Josh: It's possible.

00:52:34,489 --> 00:52:34,529

Also

00:52:35,547 --> 00:52:38,127

Jessica: Also, turns out,

uh, they were able to…

00:52:38,367 --> 00:52:41,887

They, they would describe it as sharing

the transition together, had a strong

00:52:41,887 --> 00:52:45,247

sense of friendship, practiced healthy

conflict management, and tackled the

00:52:45,247 --> 00:52:48,237

varying needs of a t- newborn as a team.

00:52:48,523 --> 00:52:48,963

Josh: Mm-hmm.

00:52:49,163 --> 00:52:49,833

I love that.

00:52:50,007 --> 00:52:54,357

Jessica: Yeah, and I think that that, if

I were to summarize this phase for us,

00:52:54,927 --> 00:52:59,227

um, and what I've learned, i- is really

that I've really had to learn more and

00:52:59,227 --> 00:53:06,077

more how to be on a team- Mm um, and to

really consider us a, a shared nervous

00:53:06,077 --> 00:53:09,997

system, and to adjust accordingly.

00:53:10,405 --> 00:53:12,375

Josh: I think that's true

for me, too, especially the

00:53:12,375 --> 00:53:13,785

shared nervous system piece.

00:53:14,365 --> 00:53:18,625

That is not a thing that I've seen

modeled super well and not a thing that

00:53:18,625 --> 00:53:20,205

I've learned experientially super well.

00:53:21,105 --> 00:53:21,835

And-

00:53:23,865 --> 00:53:29,295

It's easy to say and can be

really hard to do sometimes.

00:53:30,435 --> 00:53:35,765

Uh, and so yeah, I love that we have kept

coming back to keeping our eye on that.

00:53:35,845 --> 00:53:40,495

And if you, dear listener, are about to

become a parent or you are a parent and

00:53:40,495 --> 00:53:45,505

you're trying to figure out how to be

a couple as parents, uh, yeah, my wish

00:53:45,505 --> 00:53:50,355

for you is that you remember that you're

on a team with each other and that you

00:53:50,355 --> 00:53:53,545

help each other remember when, 'cause

you're inevitably gonna forget- Yeah

00:53:53,685 --> 00:53:54,785

uh, under stress

00:53:56,089 --> 00:53:59,089

Jessica: Yeah, and, and just

maybe one last practical

00:53:59,109 --> 00:54:00,709

recommendation related to all that.

00:54:00,759 --> 00:54:04,579

It has been really key for us to get

back to date nights- Mm-hmm … that

00:54:04,579 --> 00:54:07,839

are just us, which has meant

we've needed to get childcare.

00:54:08,969 --> 00:54:12,389

Um, and it has also been really important

for us to go to couples therapy- Mm-hmm

00:54:12,439 --> 00:54:14,379

and continue our work.

00:54:14,429 --> 00:54:17,229

Um, and again, that requires childcare.

00:54:17,509 --> 00:54:23,289

Um, so have time carved

out for your relationship.

00:54:23,539 --> 00:54:24,689

That is really key.

00:54:26,455 --> 00:54:28,965

Josh: I'll also say it's been important

for me to go to individual therapy.

00:54:29,395 --> 00:54:36,195

That's been really helpful in navigating

all the different changes and my

00:54:36,195 --> 00:54:40,145

experience of who I am and becoming

a dad and starting to think about

00:54:40,145 --> 00:54:41,525

what does it mean to me, to be a dad?

00:54:41,595 --> 00:54:43,065

What kind of dad do I wanna be?

00:54:43,615 --> 00:54:49,045

And what kind of partner do I wanna be

in this new configuration of our family?

00:54:49,357 --> 00:54:49,877

Jessica: Yes.

00:54:50,127 --> 00:54:51,307

Yeah, same, same.

00:54:52,147 --> 00:54:53,107

Individual therapy.

00:54:53,107 --> 00:54:54,507

We've, we've gotten all the therapies.

00:54:54,507 --> 00:54:57,187

We've also been, both been

in group therapy or groups.

00:54:58,485 --> 00:54:59,595

Josh: Get all the support you can.

00:54:59,595 --> 00:54:59,885

It's…

00:54:59,935 --> 00:55:00,335

Listen.

00:55:00,475 --> 00:55:00,495

Yeah.

00:55:00,495 --> 00:55:00,815

Truly,

00:55:00,887 --> 00:55:01,457

Jessica: truly.

00:55:02,155 --> 00:55:03,475

Josh: No one should have to do this alone

00:55:06,125 --> 00:55:08,385

Um, well, we've talked for a while now.

00:55:08,655 --> 00:55:10,375

Uh, I've really enjoyed it.

00:55:10,535 --> 00:55:13,095

It's been very sweet to

reflect on what we've learned

00:55:14,339 --> 00:55:14,919

Jessica: It has.

00:55:14,969 --> 00:55:19,389

It is one of my favorite things

to talk with you about my special

00:55:19,389 --> 00:55:21,549

interest, which is relationships.

00:55:22,139 --> 00:55:29,039

Um, yeah, I love you, and I'm grateful

that we are making it through this phase,

00:55:29,069 --> 00:55:36,079

and I consider us in the one-third of

couples that report positive results.

00:55:36,449 --> 00:55:39,589

You know, and we, we've, like, fallen

down along the way a fair amount.

00:55:39,639 --> 00:55:43,879

We've had to repair a fair amount,

but, you know, at the end of the day,

00:55:44,589 --> 00:55:49,179

I'll speak for myself, but I'm very,

very grateful I'm married to you and

00:55:50,279 --> 00:55:52,039

for many, many more years of that

00:55:52,817 --> 00:55:54,847

Josh: Well, I love you too.

00:55:55,797 --> 00:56:02,117

And I'm-- w- couldn't imagine doing this

with anyone else and so grateful for

00:56:02,117 --> 00:56:06,297

all of the, you know, not that they've

been fun, but the-- I think the stumbles

00:56:06,297 --> 00:56:11,167

have been really helpful and important

for us to learn and grow in ways that we

00:56:11,167 --> 00:56:12,537

didn't know we were gonna be challenged.

00:56:12,557 --> 00:56:16,337

I mean, like, we knew we'd be

challenged as parents, but I think

00:56:16,337 --> 00:56:19,477

it's been surprising for me in some of

the ways that we've been challenged.

00:56:19,557 --> 00:56:27,607

And, uh, yeah, there's, there's no way

that we could have grown in the ways

00:56:27,617 --> 00:56:32,287

that we've grown in both individually

and together without this phase.

00:56:32,617 --> 00:56:34,407

And I'm with you.

00:56:34,407 --> 00:56:35,867

I, I think we're in the one-third.

00:56:36,497 --> 00:56:38,677

Uh, very grateful to be there with you

00:56:42,253 --> 00:56:44,143

Well, that's all for today.

00:56:44,513 --> 00:56:47,113

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in this

00:56:47,113 --> 00:56:50,643

episode at relationshipcenter.com/podcast

00:56:51,137 --> 00:56:53,367

Jessica: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

00:56:53,367 --> 00:56:55,487

[email protected].

00:56:55,757 --> 00:56:57,027

We love hearing from you

00:56:57,689 --> 00:57:00,069

Josh: If you'd like to work with one

of the talented clinicians on our

00:57:00,069 --> 00:57:01,919

team, go to relationshipcenter.com

00:57:01,919 --> 00:57:04,119

to apply for a free 30-minute consultation

00:57:04,537 --> 00:57:07,397

Jessica: You can also sign up for

a monthly email of our best content

00:57:07,407 --> 00:57:08,927

at relationshipcenter.com/newsletter

00:57:10,108 --> 00:57:13,748

Josh: We will see you all in

January with our next episode.

00:57:14,148 --> 00:57:16,348

In the meantime, if something

in this episode touched you,

00:57:16,388 --> 00:57:17,428

will you share it with a friend?

00:57:17,788 --> 00:57:19,488

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you

00:57:20,170 --> 00:57:23,030

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,010

wherever you listen to podcasts, and

be sure to hit subscribe while you're

00:57:26,010 --> 00:57:28,310

there so you never miss an episode.

00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:29,520

Josh: Until next time.

00:57:29,740 --> 00:57:30,640

We love you too.

00:57:31,230 --> 00:57:31,450

Bye.

00:57:41,448 --> 00:57:45,478

On today's episode, we're gonna be

sharing with you some of our mistakes from

00:57:45,478 --> 00:57:48,858

being parents from a couple of years of

00:57:59,056 --> 00:57:59,446

What's today?