What if understanding money was the thing that finally set your creative work free?

That’s the quiet truth running through my conversation with Hannah Cole. She’s a tax educator, an artist with over 20 years of experience, and the founder of Sunlight Tax.

We talk about why there’s no standard path for creatives, how the story you tell about your worth shapes everything, and why financial literacy might be the most underrated superpower in your business toolkit.

Highlights

There is no standard path. And that’s actually the point.

Creative careers don’t come with a rulebook and for a long time, that felt like a disadvantage.

But Hannah reframes it completely.

“Believing there should be a standard route stifles innovation and self-direction; embracing the openness enables more organic growth and resilience.”

When you stop waiting for someone to hand you the map, you start drawing your own. And that map tends to be more honest, more durable, and more you.

The story you tell about your work changes everything.

Marketing is hard for a lot of creatives. Not because they don’t have something valuable to offer. But because they haven’t fully claimed the value of what they do.

Hannah connects this directly to how we price, pitch, and show up.

“Valuing your authenticity and the unique perspective you bring makes marketing more genuine and attracts aligned clients.”

When you believe in what you bring to the table, you stop underselling and hedging. And you start speaking to the people who actually need what you have.

Money is just value wearing a different name.

So many creatives carry a complicated relationship with money. It feels awkward to charge and uncomfortable to negotiate. It’s like asking for money means somehow caring less about the art.

Hannah flips that story.

“By reframing the way we perceive money in relation to our creative work, we begin to see it not as a barrier but as a reflection of the value we provide. This mental shift cultivates confidence and legitimacy, making it easier to set fair prices and negotiate contracts.”

Money isn’t the opposite of meaning. It’s what happens when your work matters to someone else enough for them to exchange something for it.

Financial literacy is a creative superpower.

Most of us weren’t taught this. We got great art education, maybe. But no one sat us down and walked us through estimated taxes, deductions, or what self-employment actually costs.

And that gap creates unnecessary stress.

“Financial literacy empowers creative professionals to maximize deductions, reduce anxiety, and reinvest in their craft.”

The less time you spend in financial fog, the more you can put into the work.

Simple systems beat complicated intentions.

Hannah is a big advocate of this one. You don’t need a complicated accounting setup. You need something easy enough that you’ll actually do it.

“People are more likely to sustain beneficial habits that are effortless to maintain, leading to better long-term financial health.”

Things like creating a dedicated account for business expenses or building a habit of tracking can go a long way. Small sustainable things compound into real clarity over time.

You don’t have to do this alone.

One of the most powerful things Hannah talks about is collective action. The tax laws that have protected artists and creatives didn’t happen by accident. They happened because people organized, showed up, and made noise together.

“Building civic engagement and belonging to professional groups magnifies influence and creates systemic change.”

Your individual voice matters. But when you join it with others, the impact multiplies in ways that go far beyond your own studio or business.

The creative brain is built for entrepreneurship.

Hannah makes a case I think a lot of us need to hear.

Pattern recognition, lateral thinking, and standing out in a crowded room all make us good artists and writers. And those same skills can make for a remarkable entrepreneur.

“Recognizing their own superpowers can help artists and creators craft authentic, compelling brands and find underserved markets.”

You’ve been business skills your whole life. You just might not have called them that.

Closing Reflection

Hannah’s work is about more than tax tips.

It’s about helping creatives step into the full picture of what they’ve built. To stop treating money like a foreign language and start seeing it as part of the creative practice itself.

Because when you understand the financial side of your work, you protect it. You grow it. You give it staying power.

If you’re a creative entrepreneur figuring out the money side of your work, leave a comment and tell us where you’re at. Because this conversation is worth continuing.

Not having tax literacy is expensive.

The.

The Tax foundation did a study a year ago that said that found that the average U.S. taxpayer loses over $1,000 a year simply from misunderstandings of the tax code.

Things like throwing out their business receipts because an accountant said to them, you don't itemize.

And because they don't know that itemizing has nothing to do with their business deductions.

And they cross wires on that so they don't track their business deductions.

This is a mistake I see all the time.

P.S.

if you have a business, if you have a profit motive, you get to take your business deductions.

And itemizing has nothing to do with it.

That's a separate thing.

Welcome to the Standout Creatives, where making money and creating meaningful work go hand in hand.

You're already passionate about what you create.

Now let's turn that passion into a standout business.

Marketing your work doesn't have to be overwhelming.

It can actually amplify your creativity.

I'm your guide, Kevin Chung, and this podcast is your roadmap to creative business success.

I'll show you how to turn your unique talents into a business that truly represents who you are.

Let's get started.

Hey, and welcome to another episode of Standout Creatives.

Today I'm on Hannah Cole.

Hannah, can you let everybody know about yourself, the work you do, and how you got into it?

Sure.

Hi.

I'm a longtime artist.

I've been an artist for over 20 years, but I became also a tax professional because I was really frustrated with how difficult it was to get, like, good, empathetic, clear information about my taxes.

So I went back to school for accounting and started my company, Sunlight Tax.

Um, so now I'm a tax educator, and I try to help.

You know, creatives are my people.

So just like, helping creative people, you know, fuel their businesses is the thing that I really care about.

Gotcha.

Can you talk about your journey as an artist first, and then we'll.

We'll get into the tax stuff after, just based on all the stuff you experienced.

Like, what was your journey as a kid doing creative things?

Why did you become an artist and all that stuff?

Sure.

I mean, I was, like, spacey and imaginative, and I like to draw since I could hold a crayon.

So there was a part of me that I think always wanted to be an artist.

I knew that was kind of my calling or my talent.

And I got a lot of encouragement when I drew, which made me draw more, and then I'd get better, and then I get More encouragement.

So, yeah, I've done it for a long time.

Grant you.

I did get the message that, like, it's not a great career and you'll have to figure something out for the money.

Like, I definitely did get that other side of it.

And so I sort of went straight at art and then took some turns to try and adjust, like, oh, let me study writing instead.

Let me study art history, Let me kind of get a job in a museum.

But eventually it just.

I just felt like I was gonna be unhappy if I didn't do the thing that I really wanted to do.

And like, why work next to the thing I want to do?

Why not just do the thing?

So that's great, because we can let those, like, thoughts and ideas.

I don't know how it started.

It's probably some, like, big corporate conspiracy that said you should not pursue arts because whatever we want to keep you trapped in this, like, cycle of production and stuff.

It's hard to quantify maybe from like a big government perspective or like a company, like, what the path of a creative person is going to be.

It's much less straightforward than, like, oh, if you're going to be a doctor, you're going to go do pre med, then med school residency.

Like, we kind of have that mapped out.

And then we know your value to society afterwards.

I don't think it's so clear for creative people.

So the distinction between, oh, this is a set path that, you know, you can take.

There's no deviating from it because there's like all sorts of regulations on who is eligible and not eligible since there is no specific path, because creativity is such a broad and personal thing, it makes it hard to, to really set up a path for these types of people to, to follow.

Right?

I think so.

I mean, what do you think about that?

I think the way that it used to happen was fairly successful.

So you had the patrons that would pay for people to come and create the things or fund the things that people wanted to see.

And that's.

Well, at least the Renaissance model of it.

I'm sure it's evolved a lot over, like, ancient times into the.

Towards the Renaissance and now.

So it's, it's changed over time.

But I think that was one of the models that I like to think about because people who fund the arts like art, so they're, they're wanting people to, to flourish and explore and, you know, do all those sorts of things.

Yeah, I like that.

There's a part of me that's thinking about before The Renaissance.

And like, churches, like artist art, was made for religious institutions almost exclusively.

So I'm not.

I'm, you know, I guess.

I guess I don't really know as deeply on that side of, you know, the patron funding side of art history, as well as what was produced.

Did you not take an art history course?

That was like, one of the requirements of.

I have a degree in art history.

I have a degree in it.

Interesting.

But.

But.

But I studied the art.

You know, I feel like.

I don't.

I feel like how it was funded was not.

I mean, you know.

Yes, yes, I know about the Medici in part because they actually also.

The accountants that the Medici hired were also the best in the land, and they actually invented the system of accounting that we still use today called double entry accounting.

Um, so it's interesting that their patronage was not just for the arts, but also for systems like the other business that I have.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, I just think it's fascinating that this.

This theory of not being able to live from your art made its way around.

I don't know when it started, but.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's.

I do think it's more.

It takes more thought, thoughtfulness, and it takes more individual, like, decision making.

Because I don't think.

I don't think there's a path like, you want to be an artist today.

I'm saying, love, you're born today.

I don't think there's such a clear path.

Like, this is how you do the steps.

There's a bit of a path, like, maybe you go to art school, but what do you.

What do you even do after art school?

What's your path after that?

Like, it feel.

It doesn't feel clear to me.

I don't.

Maybe you.

Maybe you disagree, right?

I think you have a unique perspective because you now see the business side as being a tax person with the.

The artistic and creative side.

So I think what is not taught in art school is once you've studied all this art and you can make it right, what do you do with it?

Like, I don't think that bridge has been gapped.

I think it's also one of those things where they don't teach you how to be an entrepreneur either.

A lot of what we do as a society is set up to fit into buckets of, here's where you can go once you're done, but don't show you the way, if you want to do things for yourself, how to do that for sure.

I mean, and when I was in art school, I mean, my MFA is.

So art school may have evolved since this point point, but when I was in was a little anti entrepreneurial.

It was.

I was shamed when I would try to ask questions about like of my professors, like, well, how do you make a living?

What do I.

It was like considered sort of rude and pushy that I would ask questions like that.

And I don't think that's very fair to the students.

Like, you should get a straight answer to those questions.

But I found that really challenging because I, I definitely was given the message like, no, no, here in art school, you're here to learn the craft of art making.

And you know, all that business stuff that's going to fall in place afterwards, like that's a later thing and that's on you.

That was definitely the attitude that was given to me and I feel salty about it.

And part of why I teach people, you know, how to manage their money and the business side of their practice is because I did not get that in art school.

And I think it is so important to sustaining a creative career.

Yeah.

So let's, let's talk about what was the art that you were making?

You made enough of that money to be able to want to do your own taxes and all this other stuff.

So how.

What was the transition?

Like, what were you doing in the artistic world?

To me, yeah,

I'm a painter.

I didn't transition out of being a painter.

I'm still a painter.

And yeah, I would have shows with my gallery out.

I was originally represented by a gallery in Boston and then one in New York and then a different one in New York and now also one in Asheville, North Carolina.

I would have solo shows and sometimes work in group shows and try to sell them.

And I would apply for grants and residencies and I would make money, but it was very spotty.

Sometimes I'd have a really good year and then sometimes I would not.

So it was hard to.

It was not reliable income though.

It was, you know, income.

So yeah, that, that's what the money side of it looked like.

I, if I'm being perfectly candid, I struggled.

Like I found it and still find it.

The art side of the.

Of like the money making, very difficult.

So you wanted to go into taxes for a specific reason or was that you were trying to figure out how to do your taxes and you're like, oh, I need to learn more about this.

And I think other people also struggle with this or was there a different

reason yeah, well, I mean, when I first graduated from my MFA program and I wanted to do my first, you know, grown up tax return, I sat down with my dad's accountant and I was thinking I was going to learn all this stuff, like how to do quarterly taxes, how to do bookkeeping, you know, what are, what's an ira, like, setting up savings accounts and things.

And I sat down, here I am feeling like I'm shelling out a huge amount of money.

I sit down across from him and he goes, so when are you going to get a real job?

And I just, it was so humiliating.

I felt, I felt filled with shame.

And suddenly I was like, wait.

I walked into this room, like with this major grant, two residencies in my future, a gallery that's representing me.

Like, I'm walking in feeling like I'm kind of like a, you know, I'm doing great.

And I just realized, you.

He saw none of that.

Like, he did not see me.

And I was not like a legitimate business to him.

I wasn't, I didn't have a legitimate career.

You know, like in, in the context of my world, my other artists, I was crushing it.

And if you, but if you boil that, you know, as many of my friends have said, you can, in the art world, you can be famous and broke and, and I was kind of riding that wave.

So I just, I felt so humiliated by him and so upset at how I was treated.

I didn't get any of the information that I was looking for.

Honestly, he missed a $4,000 mileage deduction that I had carefully tracked across, across like two cross country trips to residencies.

And I realized, like, oh, I, I just don't even rank as, like a legitimate person to him.

And I just.

That was so deeply wounding to me that I felt like it just can't be this way.

Creative people have to do their taxes just like anybody else.

I don't feel that we should have to feel put down and shamed when we're in that room.

I think we're, we're doing this.

You know, you do creative work because you feel deeply drawn to it and called to it and because you're trying to make empathy and connection out in the world.

And I just wanted.

I, I really felt it was important that a place like that existed in the world.

That's why I built my company.

That's great.

I think we oftentimes don't end up doing what we're doing by, like, linear straight lines, especially as creative people.

It's just like, here's you.

You've seen one of those drawings like your life, and it's just like a squiggly just moving around randomly until where you are now.

And I think it's really difficult because no one helps that side of things because they don't believe there can be a way to sustain yourself.

But I think one thing that's interesting that's happening, I think it's Ireland has a program where they're funding artists like a stipend, like a minimum basic income sort of deal.

And they found that those people start to flourish once their basic needs are met to be able to create and do those sorts of things.

That's really.

Yeah, I've heard about that program.

It's very cool.

And you have to.

Extending it.

Are they really.

I think they're like expanding or they're extending or something along those lines.

That's.

That's awesome.

I love it.

Yeah.

I mean, it takes time to get good at your creative work.

It takes time to get good at any work and creative work is no different.

But like, yeah, it.

I think it's.

It's hard in the beginning when you're kind of riding on hope and fumes and vision.

You have to get good and that takes some time.

It's not instant.

So, you know, I'm a way better painter now, like by orders of magnitude than I was when I started.

But there's a lot of interesting stuff in my early work that I'm still proud of.

But like riding out those hard early years to build a reputation like that is the hard part.

I agree that like being funded by Ireland would be really nice.

Move to Ireland and have them pay for your.

Your basic necessities so that you could work on your craft.

That would be incredible.

I think that's the way if we were to re.

Think about society, how we would start to envision things.

Right.

It's not.

Since we're automating so many things and a lot of jobs are, especially with AI being replaced or you know, being much harder to get.

The ultimate outcome of that can only be either everyone is going to be starving or we let that take care of its own automation and all the productivity of things like mechanical or whatever.

And we as a society are able to do more things that make sense as far as like happiness and creativity and all those things, but who knows?

Yeah, it's so.

I am definitely like going down these AI rabbit holes lately, but it's so, so hard to know what it's all going to look like, how it's going to shake out.

Yeah.

And I think only as like a society as a whole can we force companies to go in the direction that we want them to go through our own dollars like that we provide.

Right.

Otherwise they can't sustain their businesses.

For sure.

Absolutely.

I mean, if I'm going to be completely honest with you about the Ireland thing, it makes me feel really salty because Ireland has all that money because they created a tax loophole that American companies use.

So you look at, you know, Apple is paying taxes because it incorporated through Ireland.

It prints cupertino on all its products.

Like it's trying to get that California vibe and be seen as an American company.

It should be paying taxes here in the US and it should be American artists funded with that American company's money.

So I, you know, tax policy does definitely affect these things.

And I think that one in particular makes me feel like it shouldn't be Irish artists benefiting from that.

It should be American artists because that's an American.

You know, those are American companies jumping over there because of that tax policy.

Right.

But it also has to deal with the way that governments operate.

It's only going to happen like that if we allow or if we as a society dictate to the people that are supposed to be representing us to do the things we actually want versus, I don't know, Absolutely.

Wars or what, Give tax breaks to the rich or whatever it might be.

Yeah.

There's no question.

It's about like the organizing, protesting, citizenship, that sort of hard work of citizenship that, you know, keeps an eye on those things and makes sure that our tax dollars are spent the way we want them to be.

But also that tax policy is actually created in a way that benefits us as citizens, as taxpayers.

Yeah.

That's why I think it's so interesting to look back in history and see how things have evolved.

Because it's only through organization and like mass mobilization that we have things like 40 hour work week.

Otherwise we'd be working like, I don't know, like 80 hours a week instead.

And I think we, if we don't look at history, we will not be able to, you know, learn the lessons from it and implement the things we actually want.

So it's always good to look at like what's come before us and understand that we need to be the ones to make the change because the people in charge are not going to do it because they're being paid not to.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.

And in fact, like, there is so much Hope.

When you look at history, I actually think it's very positive.

In other words, like a painter like me would have to.

When I sold all my paintings, I'd have to actually track the.

Like, here's one squirt of my cadmium red that went into the.

Into that painting.

And you know, like, it's like when.

When you're a painter, the ridiculousness of.

Of tracking cost of goods sold for inventory is.

Is very evident.

Julia Child has this quote that's amazing.

She was part of this organizing group that protested this inventory tracking thing, and she said, this is a quote.

But how shall I allocate the oregano?

Because, like, that was actually in her test recipes that she would do in her test kitchen in order to write a cookbook.

They were actually requiring her to, like, track how much oregano went in each test batch.

Right.

It's ridiculous.

And so artists like Julia Child and others got together and.

And when I say artist, like, she's a cookbook.

She's a writer and cookbook, you know, a creative person.

I. I mean, like, big, big a.

They organized and they got the rules changed.

So there's actually an exception in the tax code still there today that makes it so if you file under the North American industry code of artists, independent artists, writers and performers.

So it's a big group.

We don't have to track cost of goods sold.

So it's like, these things are changeable.

It's not an overnight fix like showing up, going to meetings, lobbying your congressperson.

It's hard work, but that is.

It's doable.

And I think it's really hopeful.

Yeah.

The only way to make changes is if we advocate for it.

Right.

Otherwise, they're just going to continue to do things the way that they've always been done.

Yeah.

To benefit, you know, the few versus the many.

Agreed involvement is important.

It's critical.

Are there any other little things like that that you've learned over the years, dealing not only with taxes, but any other small tidbits of fun facts that you've learned?

That's probably the best one because it's like a real victory that you know of creative people organizing to get an actual tax rule changed.

I'm trying to think, you know, there's some rules I'd love to be changed now.

You know, for example, when an artist donates their own work, they're only allowed to deduct the cost of materials.

And this is for some good reason because like when you donate, you're not allowed to donate time.

Like that makes sense.

Because if you were to just say, you know, my work as Kevin, a creative person is incredibly valuable.

It's $10,000 per hour.

Oh, and I, you know, donated, I put 10 hours into this piece that I, you know, to this book that I'm writing.

Probably more than that.

Well, now you're going to take a hundred thousand dollar tax deduction and it's sort of, you've just put a value on your time.

Like the IRS is very keen on.

Like, no, that's, that's going to be a real way to manipulate things.

We're not going to allow it at all for anyone.

No time is donatable.

You can't deduct time.

So when you, when you as the creative person donate your work, you only get to deduct the cost of materials.

Effectively, it means we don't get any deduction at all when we donate work.

Because if you're already a professional, you are, you're already deducting those materials.

Right?

Any professional is going to deduct their materials to produce their work.

And the IRS is also clear for good reason that you don't get to double dip and like take the same deduction twice.

Deduct the same thing twice.

And so for that reason, even, even that little bit that we do get is, is then eliminated because you've already deducted those materials as cost of your making your work.

So that feels especially when a lot of arts organizations in their fundraiser solicit creative people to donate work and then they sell it and that becomes a fundraiser for that organization.

Especially when they're not paying any of the, you know, the money to the artists who donate, but they're kind of holding out this carrot.

Like that artist is going to get a tax deduction that I find very frustrating.

It kind of gives the wrong message to the artist and feels extra exploitive of artists.

So I would love to see some change around that rule in particular about artists donating work.

Yeah, it's so interesting that there's always like a double, double edged sword on both sides.

You're like, oh, we can do this, but people will exploit it.

And I think that's only because people are exploiting things.

So we know people are going to try to exploit things.

You can have somebody in your major corporation say, oh, this is an artist.

They make a hundred thousand dollars an hour or whatever, and that's the way that they would exploit it.

So we're really making rules for the people who are trying to really, like, avoid things versus those who actually need the assistance for it.

Well, I think this is why, like, democracy really functions best when people are active and engaged.

If no artist ever shows up to a hearing, you know, if there's a public comment period and nobody ever hears from a creative person on a rule, creative people are not going to be well represented by that rule.

And if it know has some negative impact on them, that should be heard before it's turned into law.

That is the sort of messy, ugly truth of creating bills and passing laws.

But it's important.

Public input is important for those reasons so that everybody gets represented.

So, like, I. I'm not.

I want to.

I want to make sure we keep that note of hope in here because it is doable, but you can't do it by a post posting one thing on Instagram.

Like, that is not political action.

It requires more than that.

And I think in this day and age, I think, you know, with less civics being taught in high school, certainly tax education not being taught in high school, people aren't even aware of how to engage.

And so a lot of people actually think they are engaging civically when they post on Instagram and they don't even know what the, you know, like how to contact their representatives or how those things, like how they're meant to be engaging politically.

Is there a way or an organization that you follow or something that you sign up to that keeps you up to date with those sorts of things?

Because I think one of the biggest things that prevents people from doing things is no one tells you or it's very hard to find, or you.

You're never aware of the things that are happening.

Yeah, you know, that's a great question, I think.

I mean, there's great, there's great journalism out there for creativity, you know, for creative people.

Hyperallergic is a great, great journalistic outlet that covers the arts in general.

So it's a great place for kind of news and what's going on in the art world.

I think also, like, just there are institutions.

I Know, the art councils around the state that I live in will put out annual surveys to artists about like, what, what concerns they have, whether it's about the affordability of studio space or charitable donations or, you know, know what artists need.

I think things like that.

Large organizations like that, they have a real role to play in, in advocating for their members.

And so that is a really good way to engage in specific issues.

I don't know how.

I think there's been a lot of change in the aiga, you know, which represents like design, you know, design and graphics people, people more in that world.

But that is a kind of organization I would be looking to in the design world.

I don't know.

Do you, do you follow professional organizations like that that are doing advocacy?

Not specifically, but it's definitely something, as I get more into creating my own things that I should be looking into.

It's just one of those things.

Add to the top of the list or to the bottom of the list or however you see it of things that we need in order to, you know, function not only as business people or creative people, but as like humans in general.

Right, for sure.

I mean, I don't think people need to.

I do think it's really easy to feel overwhelmed and I want to like, just help your listeners not feel overwhelmed.

Like when you find good voices, good advocates, like places that you trust, like just following, just being a member, you know, like paying your membership dues, that's important because that organization, if they're doing that kind of advocacy to represent people like you, that, that is you having a hand in being represented.

And I think that's positive.

So it doesn't have to be so overwhelming.

It might be you're a member of your local arts council or state arts council or professional organization for, for writer, for graphic designer, whatever kind of creative work you're doing, I think that's a good step.

Yeah.

Be involved as much as you can possibly.

And if that's just having a membership, that's good too.

And just letting people know what it is that you need help with or you would like to see change in.

I think absolutely.

And when you join an organization that's large and does advocacy work, you're making it larger that way.

They, they're coming, maybe lobbying, maybe advocating in other ways and you're increasing their membership so that you are one of the people they're representing.

You have a voice in it.

Like it's, it's a positive thing.

Even, even if your effort is just paying a twenty dollar membership Due every year.

But that's.

Let's talk about your book and taxes.

So what are some of the biggest questions that people have about taxes and especially those on the creative front?

Yeah, I think a lot of creative people don't realize that they're, you know, when you are, when you are working in it, when you are earning money in that creative pursuit, it's a business.

It's very straightforwardly a business under US Tax law.

And I think that is maybe the key understanding for people to have.

I think a lot of times people feel like there's some special invitation they're going to get to be considered an official business or some official paperwork they need to do or boxes they need to check.

And, you know, I'm not.

There may be local and state regulations required for the kind of business you might be operating, and there may be things you want to do, for example, form an LLC to protect your personal assets if you get sued.

There are things that exist like that.

But when it comes to taxes and getting your tax benefits that you are fully entitled to, your creative work is a business, and the only thing that makes it a business, the only definition to the IRS of your creative pursuit being a business is that you have a profit motive.

So if you're advertising, if you're trying to get clients, if you're applying to grants, those are signals of a profit motive.

And that means you are entitled to take deductions.

All of the ordinary and necessary.

Those are IRS words.

Ordinary and necessary things that you spend money on in the business are actually deductible for you, meaning they're tax free, which is a huge benefit given on purpose to encourage you as a business to, you know, invest in growing your practice.

Maybe it's hiring you, Kevin, to, like, help me with my messaging and branding and to stand out.

Right.

In my field.

That is an investment that will be tax free for me because it's going to help grow my business.

And like, that is deliberately there as an incentive to help businesses thrive, because businesses are the engine of the US Economy, so it really matters.

Yeah.

What are the best ways that you've found to track things like that, like your expenses?

How do you make sure that you're counting everything and expensing everything, all those, like, intricate details that go into running a business?

I guess.

Yeah, for sure.

And there, there are a lot.

And this is a place where, again, I think one of the key things that I think is my mission is just trying to help people not feel overwhelmed because it can feel like there's so much.

Right.

So.

Well, one thing that I.

One thing that I have is this visual.

I made this visual.

I realized on the audio nobody's going to see this.

But what I'm holding up is this visual guide to tax deductions that I made.

And so I made this sort of.

It's like an answer key that shows, like, what creative people spend money on in their creative practice and then exactly where that goes on your tax return.

And then it gives you all the little detaily rules about how to take a home office deduction, business meals, business travel, mileage deduction.

There are some little rules, but they don't change.

So it's like, once you know what the rules are, it's not that hard.

Like, it might feel overwhelming, year one, day one, but once you know what they are, it's not that hard to follow them.

So just like getting a couple systems in place to track your deductions to make sure you're always capturing them, that's kind of all you need.

That's the best baseline.

This guide is free on my website if anybody wants to grab it@sunlighttax.com there's nine different versions for different creative fields.

Oh, that's cool.

That is.

That is part of the benefit of being an artist accountant.

I get to make stuff like that.

Yeah.

What are some of the most frustrating things about working with people who are completely unfamiliar with how to do taxes?

I mean, I. I'm going to be honest, like, I don't feel frustrated working with creative people.

Creative people are my people.

Oh.

I meant more the frustrations they feel.

Oh.

You know, having to, like, track all this stuff, not.

Not you being frustrated with people.

Yeah.

Well, I think honestly it's that we don't have a tax education in this country and find, you know, tax.

Not having tax literacy is expensive.

It costs.

You know, the Tax foundation did a study a year ago that said that found that the average U.S. taxpayer loses over a thousand dollars a year simply from misunderstandings of the tax code.

Things like throwing out their business receipts because an accountant said to them, you don't itemize.

And because they don't know that itemizing has nothing to do with their business deductions.

And they cross wires on that so they don't track their business deductions.

This is a mistake.

I see all the time.

P.S.

if you have a business, if you have a profit motive, you get to take your business deductions.

And itemizing has nothing to do with it.

That's a separate thing.

So, yeah, financial Tax illiteracy is really costly and is part of the reason that I wrote my book because I want, I care so much about creative people doing that like empathy building work that we do in the world.

And I just don't.

You know, money is the gas in the car, you need it.

And so I think when you just put in place a couple key systems, which, yes, I teach in the book.

When you put a couple systems into place to kind of automate your tracking, it just gives you a lot more time to focus on your creative work.

And like, isn't that what we all want?

What are some of the systems that you talk about in your book?

Just so that people get a taste of why they need it.

Yeah, for sure.

So tax wise there's three systems and knowing the difference between them is a really important thing for just helping you feel less overwhelmed.

So the three systems are receipts, tax documents, like for preparing your taxes, and then bookkeeping.

Of those three systems, bookkeeping is, requires the most setup and the most ongoing maintenance.

The other two you can set up in five minutes.

So a receipt tracking system and a tax document collection system, those are super, super simple.

I'm actually doing a call with a bunch of clients tomorrow to just like do those to do the receipt and tax document systems, like on the call, it's a 30 minute call and we're gonna have that stuff finished before the end of the call.

It's like so nothing.

That's the best way to advertise any sort of training.

Simple.

It'll take you no time at all.

And we'll do it together, right?

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I think like if you think about it a lot of, and, and I say this really, I wanna, I want everybody listening to know this is said without judgment.

This was me.

Like I did it this way and it was horrible.

And I hated tax time every year because it was so stressful.

I used to do my bookkeeping from my receipts and that is the most horrendous, non fun way to do it.

And it's so easy to lose stuff that way.

The key, if you want just like a tip and trick, the key is to have a separate bank account that you open that is only for your creative work.

Right?

So all of the income that you, you know, when you invoice clients, you deposit those invoices into that account.

So if you Want to buy a new laptop for the business?

You want to pay for a microphone for your podcast, it goes out of that account.

What that does for you is it sets up a bank statement that is now going to be the paper trail.

It will show everything in and out of your business.

So now bookkeeping you do from the bank statement, you just have to sort what goes where.

That's the key.

Once you do that, it just does this magic of getting the personal transactions of your life out of the business.

And so now you have this clean way to just see everything that happened in your business.

And then the bookkeeping, the bookkeeping is still some work from there, but it's so much less work.

It just makes it way cleaner and easier.

Yeah, definitely one of those things where you don't know it until somebody tells you or you figure it out by combing through all your personal expenses and business expenses and trying to figure out what is this, how much of this receipt was here or here, you know, and just being able to track things all in one place is definitely one of those things that makes a lot of sense.

Not only to save you a lot of headaches, but you can, you can see it all in one place without needing to switch or like divide your receipts or any of that stuff.

Oh, my gosh, yes.

It's so great.

And I do, I do teach those three systems in the book.

And yes, the two of them are five minutes, so it's definitely worth checking out because you will never sort receipts again.

And that's a really.

That's a really wonderful piece of joy that can be in your life.

Is that something that you offer all the time or is that usually something you offer towards tax?

Or is it quarterly?

Or how do you.

How do you set those up?

Or is that something that you can sign up for as a standard?

Oh, the, the 30 minute session.

It's a co working session that is.

It's the kickstart to my program.

I have a program called Money Bootcamp.

Probably going to rename it because I think boot camp gives the impression that it's like a thing you do really intensely in the beginning.

And that's actually not what it is.

It's a year of guidance sort of through your tax year.

But we have a kickoff session where we do those first couple systems and get a calendar hooked up.

That kind of starts to show you.

Oh, okay.

That's the rhythm of the quarterly deadlines and the like bookkeeping that is going to help me through the year.

So that, yeah, if anybody is Interested in my program.

It's called Money Bootcamp.

And if you go to sunlighttax.com there's a big yellow button that says check out Money Boot Camp.

But yeah, I'm kind of leaning into co working because I think it's just nice to have a little guidance.

I mean, you.

The ultimate.

The ultimate is to pay an accountant 300 an hour and like sit with them and they guide you through stuff.

But that's really expensive.

A lot of us don't have that money.

So after, like, done a lot of work to create a program that walks people through in more of a group scenario, like how to do these things so that it's like, you know, an affordable price.

But it does have that guidance of like, okay, show up at this time and we're gonna.

You're gonna leave with these things done.

I think that feels good.

Yeah, I think it's such a great service because you can also answer a bunch of questions and you don't have to repeat yourself to a bunch of different people separately.

If you're working one on one with people, if you have something like group calls or co working or any of those sorts of things, a lot of people will have similar or the exact same question, like when or where or what.

So it's always good to have the opportunity to help as many people as you can.

Because if you're working one on one with people, it gets difficult because that's your time that you have to dedicate to every single person.

For sure.

I agree.

I also think a lot of creative people, like, we were not given all the resources of the STEM fields.

Like, a lot of people in STEM got business training and a lot of creative people didn't.

And it's really nice when you're in a group scenario and other people are asking questions because there are shy people who feel too much, feel a lot of shame about what they don't know.

And it's really nice knowing and seeing that other people have the same questions.

You're really not alone.

I think that's like, that's a really nice thing to showcase to people who feel like a lot of fear about the fact that they don't know these things.

I would say, like, it is the most hilariously common thing that my clients come in the door with is a sense that they are the only one who doesn't know this stuff.

And it's, how can every single person who walks in the door have that feeling?

But they do.

It's because no one says this is what you should do.

There's no, like, I guess there is.

There are people that are telling people what to do, but you have to seek that out if you're looking for it.

And it's not like common knowledge.

You.

You really need to be intentional about looking for the information that you need versus no one's going to tell you you need to do this.

It's so true.

And there's a lot of gatekeeping in the accounting world.

And you know, the tax industry is like the beauty industry.

It's sort of operates based on fear.

It's.

It's better for the tax industry for you to not know anything about your taxes and feel so terrified about it that you want to just pay somebody and hand it off.

Right.

If you felt empowered and you felt like, oh, I get it, I know what to do, the tax industry wouldn't make any money.

So I feel like I want to counter program that because I'm not saying it's nothing.

Like, it's not that quick to learn this stuff, but it's not rocket science.

It's very learnable.

And I think that's the place I see myself sitting in the world.

It's like, I want to make this stuff feel as easy as unoverwhelming and just as like, here's the simple thing that you can do right now to make this better.

Because there's a.

There's just not a lot of that out there.

And I needed it.

Like I am Talking to me 15 years ago, I needed this stuff.

So I know how it feels to feel like that is inaccessible.

Yeah, I think that's one of the most powerful ways to.

If you're talking about business where you're helping people, is to just know that there's so much frustration you felt it.

That's one of the reasons that, I mean, it's the main reason that you actually went into this.

So realizing that there's a pain and helping people through that pain is definitely a good way to operate because anyone can go and figure out a way to make money for money's sake.

But services or businesses with a mission are great because you're helping people at scale and you're not just trying to sell people because you want to make money, in my opinion.

I don't know.

Yeah, no, I mean, I want more creative people in the world.

I think creative work is what brings us together and makes us feel empathy and builds connection in a world that needs it desperately.

Like, it feels like the very thing that we need right now.

And so to me, Just like helping creative people through those resistances that we can tend to feel around money, which are so easy to have.

When you like, money isn't your primary mission.

Of course.

We all want to make a living, and we should.

But, like, if money's not your primary mission, you have a mission to, you know, serve an underserved community or create something beautiful or, you know, something a little bit.

A little bit to the side of money.

It can feel very difficult to, like, orient yourself towards the things like, know, taxes and finance, which are kind of assuming, like, you're a robot that is all about maximum dollars all the time.

And it's sort of like that's kind of not our culture in the creative world.

And for good reason.

Like, I love it that we're doing good.

So that.

That is what I want to serve.

I think I want to serve people who are doing good.

Yeah.

How did you get started when you were building your business?

Because you.

You went to school for it, and then you have to, at that point learn how to build a business.

It does probably not taught.

It's.

You're learning all the accounting tax stuff, but actually doing it for yourself is another story, I would guess, for sure.

I mean, one thing is that I started before I went back to school for accounting.

I worked in a branding and design agency in New York City.

And so though I'm a fine artist by training, I learned a lot from the design, the branding and design world.

And I like, it was so valuable to me.

But then what I realized when I got out of school for accounting and started a business, I realized, like, oh, I've been kind of fed this message my whole life that creative people like me are terrible at business.

And I actually found the opposite to be true.

I found that creative people have a superpower.

Because if you think about it.

And the name of your podcast actually, like, speaks to this, Kevin, because I think we are not afraid to stand out.

Like, go to school with accountants.

You want me to show you a group of people who does not like to stand out?

It's accountants who like to sit in the back room with a spreadsheet.

They're, like, scared to talk to a client.

They'd like rather that part be as quick as possible.

You know, what's so interesting and cool about doing creative work is I find creative people kind of are excited about what they're doing.

They want to talk about it, they want to connect.

Those are all positive things when it comes to building a business.

Being authentically yourself is something that really Helps you build a great business because ultimately that's kind of what people are looking for.

So not being afraid to stand out, not being afraid to be yourself, these are real superpowers that can build a powerful, powerful brand.

The other thing that we, as creative people, I think do so well is we kind of are scanning for.

We're noticers.

Right.

We notice things.

So whether it's like a designer who notices that when you structure a web page this way versus this way, that this one works better, or whether it's a painter like me who notices some funny little weed growing in the sidewalk that people walk by and don't notice, and I make a painting about it and suddenly they notice.

Like, noticing things is a skill of an entrepreneur because you can be noticing how this group of people is not being served under the current model and maybe that becomes your business.

So I think creative people make great

business people if they allow themselves the opportunity.

I think the biggest thing is because we're taught that you're either going to starve or you should be resistant to making money.

I think that's probably the biggest hurdle for a lot of creative people in actually turning their superpower into a business.

Yeah.

Do you mean like, like a scarcity feeling about money or like feeling like it's to.

To have art.

Artistic integrity that they should not be pursuing money?

Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of money issues of creative people.

Those are two of the biggest.

Like, oh, I. I shouldn't need to make money because we, whatever.

So and so it's about the art.

I mean, that's fine.

You can do that.

Anyone can make art for art's sake.

But if you're intending to want to live off of it, you need to figure out what it is that you can do to at least attempt to sell it.

Because I think one of the things that, viewpoint wise, would help is you see this as a benefit to the person they're giving it to.

It's not so much I'm trying to make money because my art is worth money.

It's more, you are helping this person.

If they see your painting on the wall every day, you're giving them a smile.

Right.

That's how we need to be looking at the way our businesses operate versus, you know, I'm just doing it because I need to make money.

Because that's one of the reasons I think people are resistant, at least creatively.

Totally.

And I love the way that you pointed that out.

Like you really, you are delivering something of value to somebody that is what makes somebody want to pay you money?

And it's not like you're not taking money from them.

They're choosing to give you money because they receive value from the thing that you create.

I mean, I'm looking at your shirt, Kevin, and it's got this cool leaf pattern on it.

And I'm thinking about the artist who made that design.

Like, you saw that on the rack and you were like, I.

That makes me feel a certain way.

That gives a vibe that feels cool.

Like that right there.

Is that, like, value coming from somebody's artistry somewhere along the way?

Yeah.

And the way that at least we currently live in society, all the things that we do for downtime are either creative or artistically driven, but we don't think of them as things that deserve to be paid for.

Which is a kind of interesting dynamic where, oh, we're going to spend our time watching movies or watching these YouTube videos that somebody spent hours crafting, but we don't recognize that this is something that also deserves money.

Not.

Not just something like, I don't know, a TV or computer or whatever.

It's also worthy of having value.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I want to spend my time reading great books and listening to great music and dancing to great music.

Yeah.

It's the joy, it's the pleasure in my life.

It's my, like, connection beyond work.

Yeah.

So I love the fact that you live in two different worlds and you're.

You're just trying to merge the two so that everyone, especially on the creative side, can benefit and realize that a lot of people have the same concerns, the same fears, the same, you know, issues with worries that are.

They're not unfounded, but they're.

Because you don't know, the fear of the unknown is the thing that makes it scary.

Agreed.

Yeah.

And I.

And I think also, like, if you fear that you're going to walk into an accountant, an accountant, a financial professional who's going to treat you the way my dad's accountant treated me, that can feel very scary.

Can feel like you're like, nobody wants to walk in and have their all of their life choices questioned or just feel unseen.

And like.

Like the person there doesn't think that what you do is valuable.

Like, that's an awful experience.

So I think something so important to me personally is just to make sure that people doing creative work know one, that I've messed everything up, that I am not coming from a place of judgment.

I'm coming from a place of.

I have felt this pain.

Let Me help you not feel it.

Like, let's, let's prevent it, but also, like, you know, you.

You learn by making mistakes.

I've made a lot of them.

Maybe I can prevent some from you and, like, give you a shortcut.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, most of us only learn by doing.

Even if we're giving, like, all the tasks.

Here's what you need to do.

Blah, blah, blah.

We're all human, so we're, we're bound to make mistakes.

Even, even people who've been doing things for, like, their whole lives, they still make mistakes.

So it's like we need to just be knowledgeable enough to know even if you make a mistake there, usually the consequences aren't life or death.

There are ways that you can work around your mistakes or, you know, do things to, like, prevent them in the future.

It's so true.

And actually, you know, just partly because of this sort of fear that we're taught by the tax industry, one of the things, it's a point I make in my book, it's a point I.

That I just like to make with creative people in general, is like, taxes are not built for theoretical perfect beings.

Taxes are built for actual people living actual lives.

And so that means 100% of the people whose taxes are collected are imperfect.

It's like there is some give in the system.

There is adjustment.

Like, everyone pays taxes in the current year based on an estimate of what they think they owe.

And so the fact that is the whole reason that we file a tax return, because you are paying based on what you thought you would make for the year.

You can't know the future.

There's nothing wrong with you that you can't know the future.

Your tax rates aren't determined until we know the total of what you earned in a year.

And you can't know that number till the year is over, Right?

So like, there's estimating involved and properly, rightfully involved in taxes and then reconciling the estimates.

So it's like estimate, reconcile, estimate, reconcile.

It's not about being perfect.

It's about understanding that it isn't perfect and then closing the gap.

So that feels to me much more human.

Just like, oh, like, okay, I don't have to be perfect to do this.

The system will allow me to make adjustments as my life kind of goes in and out, because that's actually how lives happen.

Yeah, it's always interesting to hear that.

The way, at least in the U.S. it's, it's really backwards because in other countries they File your taxes for you.

Right.

And then they just tell you how much you owe or whatever.

But the US Is like, oh, we're building the system so that way we have to pay people.

Who are these middlemen that have to do this service for you when the government knows essentially what you're doing, because it tracks you wherever you go anyways.

So unless you're doing things off the books, which is a completely separate issue.

So I think one of the things that we talked about earlier is get involved and making the changes that we actually want to see.

Absolutely.

And by the way, like that has been proposed before.

No tax returns being required to be filed in the US we could do it the way other countries do.

Grant you, if you're running your own business, you are the one who still will have to file a tax return.

What they do in other countries, you may know better than me, but what they do in other countries is they essentially like the documents that a third party gives them, the government already has.

Right.

That includes the U.S. we could do that too.

And then they send you a letter and it says, like, hey, this is what we've got for you.

If you agree, you're good.

Like, you know, and your payroll taxes have taken out the right amount, you're good.

You don't have to do anything.

Right.

We already know the numbers.

If you have anything to add or subtract from this now, you know, fill out the paperwork, send that in.

Well, you know, you're going to have to do that if you have a business because the government doesn't have the info in your bank account about what your, you know, what your tax deductions were, what you were spending in your business.

Right.

They need that information because you can't get that stuff tax free unless you report it.

So it would still require a tax return from people like us running a creative business.

However, it will be an easier tax return.

So, yeah, guess who killed that.

Lobbying.

Lobbying from the tax industry killed that proposal.

But partly because I don't, you know, I don't think enough of us were aware it was happening, that it was being proposed.

So this is definitely just pointing to civic engagement being critical to like, catch when a proposal like that is going out, being like, yes, yes, yes, we need that.

We want that.

It should be our right as citizens not to have to pay money to do a tax return.

Which feels right.

Yeah.

Obviously the business side is a completely separate side of the story, which is why you're here to help everyone see where to do things, when to do Things and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Great.

Got a couple more questions left.

Do you know anyone else who has a standout creative business and what do they do to stand out?

I will shout out my business coach, Lisa Zahia.

I love her because she is a dancer, like a belly dancer by training and had a dance studio.

And she has weathered a lot of really hard transitions, like, for example, Covid shutting down her dance studio and become a coach for creative people like me.

And it's so wonderful to have a coach because, you know, you can't read the label from inside the jar.

It's really nice to just have that, like, check in.

So, yeah, I would say that Lisa Zahia coaching is a business that stands out for really, like seeing creative people and helping, you know, people like us make money.

Which is.

Which is right.

And good.

I love the analogy.

Reading the label from the inside, that's such a good.

It's so true.

Right.

It's so much easier to give, like, kind and empathetic advice to a friend than to yourself.

It's.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think one interesting thing that we see in something like sports or other high level fields is that many people have mentors or coaches, but we as like creative people don't think we need that or we, we are resistance to that.

So just being open to knowing.

Oh, we can't know everything because we're too in the weeds to, to see everything, but somebody else can show us.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, investing in your business, whether it is like buying a tax guide or, you know, getting some branding help, like, it can really like, move you forward faster.

So I think, you know, we, a lot of creative people can get stuck in sort of DIY mode.

We're so talented, we're so good at stuff.

We can get a little addicted to doing it all ourselves.

But sometimes it's good to outsource things a little bit and invest in your business.

It's tax deductible, but it helps you kind of get to a place a little faster.

And sometimes you get some.

A voice from outside yourself being like, hey, you know, I'm seeing this thing.

Have you noticed?

And that can be so valuable.

Yeah.

What is one extraordinary book, podcast, documentary or tool that has had the biggest impact on your journey?

I'm such a big reader, I just, I read novels for pleasure and partly to get off screens.

So a lot of that, I will say that that's had a huge impact on me.

Just unplugging, disconnecting, like having actual downtime.

Where I'm not looking at a screen or checking my email.

So it's not a direct answer in the sense that it gave me some, like, amazing business tips.

But just reading really fantastic novels and asking everyone I know what the best book they just read is has been a wonderful unlock for me because sitting on my couch snuggling with my daughter and reading every night is like one of the joys of my life.

And it actually refreshes my battery for doing good work the next day.

Better than anything else.

And if you want to know a couple of my favorite authors who I highly recommend, Lauren Groff is a fantastic novelist.

She just came out with a brand new book called Brawler Book of short stories.

They are so powerful and intense.

I feel like it blew my mind wide open.

So I totally recommend that book if anybody is interested in a great read.

Yeah, just like we were saying before, we relax by consuming things that other people have done and then also having that feel our ability to create, because it brings new perspectives, thoughts, ideas.

Totally.

And you know what?

Like, when Lauren Groff has a new book out, I go straight to the bookstore and I buy it hardcover because I know it's going to be good and I want to support, I want her to write the next book.

So, yeah, that is an author who I feel like I have so much value out of her writing.

I want her to keep writing.

Elizabeth Strout is another one.

If Elizabeth Strout has a new book out and I. I know there is one coming out this year, I'm gonna go buy it.

I'm gonna go buy it hard cover.

Because I just, I love her writing so much.

Brings me so much joy.

Yeah.

Support the people.

I'm sure most people do this already, but support the people that, you know, you admire or you like their work because that allows them to continue to do work.

Absolutely.

I think you touched on this a bit.

But what do you think makes a creative business stand out?

And what would you say to somebody to make them stand out based on what you've done?

I think lean into the thing that is uniquely you.

Honestly, there's never been a time that people are more hungry for authenticity.

And so if you're weird, if you are unusual and you are, you are, lean into that.

Because there's somebody out there who needs exactly that thing.

I mean, as much as the Internet world and AI is trying to take the friction out of everything people want, people, like, people connect with each other.

That's what they're really looking for.

And so I Think.

Yeah.

I think standing out to me is just like leaning in hard to the things that are unique to you.

You know, to me, I love helping creative people not feel pain that I have felt.

I have a motto of I'm never going to waste my pain.

And so my weirdness is I am a painter who is tax professional, and I'm going to help creative people feel better about the money side of what they do, because I believe in creative work.

I believe in its value, and I want creative people to feel, like, more comfortable in that value.

It's so funny that when we're kids, we just want to blend in with all the other cool people.

But what.

What happens when you're an adult is like, you need to do things that are interesting for people.

People to care.

Right?

True.

Do you have a challenge that you want to give everyone in order for them to stand out?

What a.

That's such a good question.

Oh, my gosh.

A challenge for people to stand out.

I think it.

I think it would be to reflect about.

About, like, what is that?

What is the thing that your best friend loves about you?

What is the thing that is a little, you know, that's different from you, from other people?

Maybe write it down, maybe make a big poster about it.

Because I think that's probably the core of your business right there.

Like, that's probably the thing that will attract people to you ultimately.

So I think that would be my challenge.

So lean into that and identify that thing.

Great.

Love it.

Well, Hannah, this has been great talking to you.

Where can people keep up to date with you and your work, not only for taxes, but for painting as well?

Lovely.

Yeah, I have links to everything at my website, sunlighttax.com there's the visual guide to tax deductions, which is free, so just look for the deductions guide link at the top.

And yeah, my book, Taxes for Humans is also available on my website with a bunch of juicy bonuses.

That's how I stand out from Amazon.

If you buy the book from me, you get some free courses and a tax organizer and, like, really great bonus stuff.

But yeah, you can find it all@sunlighttax.com and it's been so great to talk to you, Kevin.

I just really appreciate what you're bringing into the world and helping creative people stand out.

Yeah, thanks.

It's been so much fun talking to you.

Hopefully somebody will have less stress about taxes by listening to this.

I hope so.

Okay, bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Standout Creatives.

If you're feeling stuck.

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Thanks again for tuning in and as always, lean into your creativity and curiosity.

I'll see you again on the next episode.