For the first time, country music star Ty Herndon tells the full story behind his memoir What Mattered Most: a 21-year-old's hotel room in Hollywood that he kept silent about for nearly forty years, the New Year's morning in 2020 when his phone rang at 6:45 a.m., and the love he didn't think he'd live to write. This is Nashville's podcast, The Patrick Custer Show: the only place on Broadway where shame gets bounced at the door and hope is always on the house.

What did Ty Herndon spend nearly forty years unable to say out loud about a hotel room in Hollywood? How does a number-one country artist watch his career disappear in a single news cycle and not become bitter? What happened on the New Year's morning of 2020, when he had a handful of pills and his phone rang at 6:45 a.m.? And what made a country dad drive his transgender son 200 miles out of town and drop him off, only to lose him 24 hours later?

We explore shame and silence, faith and identity, addiction and recovery, and the cost of carrying things alone. If you have ever felt like you had to hide something to survive, Ty opens up about the work of saying it out loud and what becomes possible on the other side.

CONTENT NOTE: This episode discusses suicide attempt, sexual assault, and addiction.

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You can love and you can be angry. Bitterness grows, a seed of hate. And I don't have that in me. I've never hated anyone. And I don't plan on starting.

Welcome to the Patrick Custer Show. I'm so excited to be here. Actually, I am thrilled to be here because we have one of my favorite people in this whole wide world who's been so much, done so much for me, been so much to me, and changed so many people's lives. You are in for a treat, and I want to go ahead and dive right in. Country music star, godfather of so many things, and trailblazer for so many, including myself, Ty Herndon.

What a beautiful coat to hand me. Thank you very much. I'm going to try.

Is that what your way of saying it's cold?

No, I was saying that you just made me very warm. Good. What a warm welcome.

Good, good. Oh, my goodness. This was a long time coming.

It has been. We didn't talk wasn't that long ago, but we knew we were going to reconvene this conversation once the book was out. And so we went to lunch a few weeks back and I said, okay, here's how it's rolling out and I really want to sit down with you now that we have the opportunity to dive deep into this memoir.

Well, and one of the things that I love y'.

All.

So Ty was on one of my earlier episodes, earliest episodes of Rooted Recovery Stories, my last podcast, and I believe it was still when we were quarantining a lot because you and I, I mean, it was virtual and yeah, I.

Mean, you know, this is our third conversation.

Yes. But I'm thinking back to our first, which was just so. So the iterations of healing keep going. I love being able to come back and revisit the path, you know, the same.

And I also wanted to just say this before we get dive into this about stuff about this book. I really enjoyed the podcast with Michael Passens. Now he's one of my best friends, Alex and I best friends. And the freedom that came from that for so many people, but especially Michael. You know, we just, we just, we've been recording this last week and so really some great surprises coming. But I don't think we would have been able to do that if it weren't for the steps that were taken with care for story. So congratulations on that. And you know, I know he feels the same way.

You have any idea how much that means just to hear, but especially coming from you, the amount of feedback that we received both on public comments and private messages blew me away more than I. More than any other story we've ever, ever told.

What was so powerful about that for me is that how much of an outreach that just that kind of truth can have and for the person telling it for them to know that. That maybe all those years you've left alone, you know, isolated, not wanting to be seen, it was going somewhere after all. So that's why I think these conversations are important. I think they're life saving and I think that we're in a time right now that people are wanting it more than cheesecake.

Absolutely. Well, we crave in our. I always talk about how there's. My episodes are like roller coasters because sometimes they're hilarious and sometimes they're all over the spectrum, but sometimes they're, you know, excruciatingly sad and they. They take you, you know, all over the map. And I think that as human beings, especially like you said, in this day and age, we crave, we do crave that roller coaster of emotional writing, maybe.

To the theme park of emotions. Baby, let's go.

But on the other hand, we live in a society where vulnerability isn't. We live in a just everybody showing. We talk about vulnerability, but we don't really practice it in public. And I'm not saying you and I, I'm saying in general. And so one of the things that I think is so, so special and, you know, our listener, viewers, if you're tuning in now in this episode, you're gonna see it. You're gonna see it, you're gonna hear it, you're gonna feel it. And if it's the first time you feel and hear this level of vulnerability. And it's going to be something that will shock you because it creates a space. Whether you can identify with Ty's story or not. It opens a door for you to start asking questions and see parts of yourself you've never seen before ever was.

A textbook of what not to do. Read my book. There was a textbook on what to do. Read my book.

The book's out. Go buy it.

The book had its coming out, thank goodness.

Unlike our coming out, though, there was a media campaign.

Well, I don't know.

Some people did have media campaign leading up.

They're coming out, but I don't know. You don't have to have that.

That's right.

But this is a story I thought I would never get to tell. Especially. And especially not to get. Not to be able to tell it this authentically from two years of conversations with the incredible David Ritz. One of the things that I love about this so much is even with early feedback, the journey that he takes you on with him writing it with my help together is so visual. Some of my best friends and family that have. And yourself. It's a story that's. Roller coaster is a good word. But the way he wrote this helped me understand my life better. It took me on a personal journey of healing that I didn't expect. It took me on a journey of finding more authenticity than I ever knew that I had. It really helped me open, dig so deep into rooms that were buried forever and to excavate them, and then finding the courage, the key to open it and then having more courage with God's help with people. My husband David, just great friends and counselors to go in there and clean it out. But you don't trash anything that you get out of there. It becomes information that helps you live better, helps you breathe.

You and I have been close for quite some time.

Yes.

And I knew that I was gonna be hit. You warned me I was gonna be hit with some surprises. One that I was pleasantly surprised with was because I don't shy away, obviously, from wanting to hear the deepest, most vulnerable, let's get to the bottom layer level of truth in the story. And I also know and respect that no matter how close I am with friends, we don't always, I mean, God, as we get older, like half the time we don't think, you know, we're not thinking about all the stuff to talk about. We're just busy having good times together. If it doesn't come up, it doesn't come up.

Trying to live our best life every day.

But I grew up in Music City, and as I've told you before, you know, a huge piece of my coming out process was affected by your choice to finally, you know, full chest come out when you did as a country singer here in Nashville. So I was attuned to knowing some of the headlines that we heard through time.

Yes.

So as are any of my regular audience knows, because I talk about it all the time. I am not a reader. I'm an audiobook.

I did have to get that special for him.

Yeah, he did. And I really appreciate that. And I'll say if you, even if you don't enjoy audiobooks, Ty did a really great job of reading it. And it was. I don't know, it's five hours and some change. And I swear it didn't. It did not feel nearly as long as a typical audiobook that long because I was just so in it.

One of my very good friends and cousins, she goes for her morning walk every day power walks. And she said I was just going to go for a mile walk and listen to my family. And she said I was 10 miles down the road and I had to call my husband to come get me. I said, so, I said so. It was good. She goes, honestly, I was, didn't know what to expect. But she goes, I didn't expect it to be this good because it took her on, on, on, on some things that she didn't know about me. My whole family that, you know, it just wasn't for them to know at the time would have stressed them out, you know, and, but, but it, it took my family, it's going to take a lot of people on, on a ride to, through their past. You're going to, you're going to, if, if you grew up in the church, you're going to feel some of that. If you grew up in the country, you're going to feel some of that. It's, it's, it's a, it's a story of love and hardship and romance and failure and addiction and trauma and mental health and I mean it's just a full buffet.

You don't even have to name it. We're just going to tell you it's the full buffet. And so my follow up question to this is, what was it like doing the audiobook?

Well, you know, I've been in the studio so much I didn't consider it to be any different, but it was way different. It was words, like simple words, like necessity became Japanese to me. I was just really messing it up. And here's what happened.

Is it both the reading and the speaking it or like did you know like what part of it was getting jumbled for you? Like getting the words out or comprehending what you were reading?

All of it, all the above. It just really in your head. And I just kept having to take a lot of pauses. And then my dear friend Ms. Kristin Chenoweth dropped by and brought a cheesecake with jello cheesecake. We ate every bit of it and took it home. And she said, let me just, I've done a few of these. She goes, you're sitting right in the middle of town and you're sitting right next to him. You're too close. You can't tell his story like that. She goes, go up on that hill, look down on this beautiful town and tell that man's story. Tell his story.

For the person that doesn't speak metaphor, tell us what you mean when you say that.

Meaning that I was sitting next to Ty trying to tell his story and I needed to remove myself from him and go sit up there and tell little Ty's story, tell big Ty's story and run through this with the authenticity that he deserved. And so the metaphors work for me. You'll hear a lot of them today. And it worked. I came back in and in the next five days I sat down and I read my book. I added a few choice words in there, which I can. I had to call my Pentecostal uncle and say, look, you're not going to like this word, but you know, enjoyed the ride. But that's the day that I settled in and loved my book. That's the day that I looked at it and said, oh my God, the work that's gone into this. From David, from my husband Alex, from my manager Zeke, from my mom, to just the times we sat on the floor and cried, the times we had to make edits because they weren't right. The times that we had to be so careful. Speaking of other people who are still in my life and that I love, I had a responsibility to tell my story. Somebody asked me, was this a tell all book? I said yes, I'm telling on myself this is what my insanity, how it affected other people and mostly how it affected me and how I got on the other side of it, hopefully with relationships still intact. But I'm not a crazy person who doesn't think that my life didn't affect people because it did.

Did this process involve going back to talk to or in any way communicate with people referenced?

Of course. We offered an opportunity to many of the key players in this to be heard and to be interviewed. Some declined this, some said yes, and you know, the ones in the book who said yes. But it was great respect in the word no as well because if they feel this is my story to tell, it was my story to tell. But I did also go back and they all got a copy of the audiobook first and actually sent videos of. Just say, look, I want to remove the fear that you may have in this. You are highly honored in this. If I spoke your name in this, there's nothing but praise for you. And this. If I didn't speak your name and the name was changed, it's because you were never in the media. You were never a part of the story that got national attention. And that's the rule we lived by with this. Because there's not a bad story to tell about anybody.

When you talked about David helping you to reframe some of your. Well, all of your narrative. Because I know, I think that this is probably the case for just about all of us, especially those of us who are in recovery from addiction trauma. We have to go through that process. And almost always it takes someone else or many people guiding us through to reframe. And even with all the work you've done, it doesn't amaze me because it is amazing. It doesn't surprise me that what he could do and the skill that he did was take narratives from what happened in your life and frame them in a way that told and communicated a story in its truth. Because I think even with your own stuff you participated in and shame you carried about actions or decisions you made, it was all full of shame. And so hearing what. Hearing the version of these stories from the headlines flipped around into what really felt like this didn't feel like somebody telling their memoir and like, okay, here's my one sided. You know, this is what makes me look good. I mean, in the beginning of the book, you say like, you're you. You may hate me by the end, but I have to do this. I'm paraphrasing.

But as much as I want you to love me, you're probably not going to.

Yeah.

By the middle of this book, but by the middle.

Yeah.

Yeah. Had hopes that things would turn around.

And they do, they do. But I think that that's one of the things that makes it so powerful. And I want to ask you, what was your experience like? Because you said you felt like.

You.

Found your story for the first time. And I have to think, well, yeah, you never really were able to frame it in a way that felt like you could own it until you had somebody else say, okay, I've heard everything you say.

I was my own version of Unsolved Mysteries, to be quite honest with you. And working on this, the two years of my life helped me get a timeline. Number one, I couldn't have told you dates, time. Yeah. What was going on at any point. I had great friends to rely on that some stories were gone, some stories that I so traumatic that I removed them. And sure. And getting back to those was some of the hardest parts. But, you know, when you look at a life and I've got a lot of life to live, you know, I'm happy life this far. You have to sit down and somebody wants to tell a story about that. Who. Saw David Ritz saw an article in People magazine after 2020 when I wanted to take my life and it was just, it was a crazy time. But got on the other side of that and he's. David said to me, he goes, I've had a knowing for a long time I didn't know who it was going to be that I was going to do the book that would matter to. He's 84 years old. He said, but I've yet to do the book that I've wanted to do in my career. And he said, you know, we had some great talks. He said, I wasn't starting to lose hope about that because I don't do that. He goes, but what a beautiful surprise it was on the day that I opened that magazine and there it was. He said, I knew I was going to do this book and I knew that I was going to get to tell your story. He goes, and there are some parts of my life that I've always wanted to put in the book and I was hoping that you would let me to add a poem here or tell a story here that just that stood side by side with you. He goes, I've never had that. And man, did he do that. And those are the parts, you know, as my husband's in the room, that when we got to hear those, when we would get a segment of the book done and a little nugget like that was stuck in there and it was so perfect and it would truly just bring us to tears and knew that it was ordained to be there.

So as you share that, I see, I mean like this is all emotional, but I see some tears kind of welling up in your eyes. Is there a moment that really sticks out for you about, you know, you said for you and your husband Alex, that there's just. There are some things that really.

Well, I'll say this. And with his permission, you know, I would have been just fine ending the book somewhere before I met Alex. You know, there was a story there. I was happy. It was all, wait, when did you.

Start writing the book?

No, I had already met Dal, we were together, but I said, oh, okay. But there would have been a stopping point.

Gotcha.

That could have been. And that's. It was really up to him that, you know, if he, if he wanted to, you know, tell his story, his, his love for me and what this has meant, and there was no pressure on him to do that at all. But he, he got home one day and he said, just had a great three hour conversation with, with David Ritz and ten minutes later, David calls me, goes, oh, wow. You know, this is amazing. So when you ask me an emotional part, so much. I've lived with my story a long time, and it was amazing to have it come to the surface and make sense. Things needed to make sense for me to be whole. And I'd given up hope on that. And I never knew this process would do that. And it will, and it did, and it does. But I. The both of us, we just said, David, just write the ending, you know, and we want to hear it. We want to hear the draft when it's done. And we heard it two ways. We let a voice on Siri loaded in and that. That read it to us, and then we took it away and read it individually just by ourselves. And it was so beautiful. You know, we don't often think we're going to get this fairy tale ending. And this is. We're normal. You know, I've got house payments, we fuss, we love, we fight. It's all the. All the normal stuff. But somewhere in there, he landed with. It made me fall in love with my husband all over again. And it made me want people to feel that way. And I almost could remove myself from it and go, I really love these guys, you know? Yeah. I've been all around the world through a whole lot of crap, and he's not even heard me say this. I had moments of thinking, I think we all do. In any kind of recovery, do I deserve this? Is this real? Is this going to stay? And that passed pretty quickly because what's real about it is this man knows me from my underwear out. And I know him. And I've never let anybody in like that, ever. But I trust him with everything about me. And some days I fail. I do. You know, we both do. But. But what we're creating is a safe place to land. And I don't know that I would be able to do this authentically and if I didn't understand everything about me. And this process did that. It did that. And it's. And you're gonna. It's really hard for me to sit here. And I'm not bragging about it. I'm just saying if you spend a minute with it, you're gonna see yourself in it the same way.

Yeah, Well, I think that. I think that. That any good memoir.

Yeah.

Does that. Because the human experience, like, you know, the details might be different.

The gay man, human experience, I mean.

Yeah. But, like, it's my own *Velvet Rage*.

I'll be honest with you?

Yeah, but it's full. It's full of, you know, loss, heartache, you know, bad decisions, good decisions, salvation. God, I mean, like, whom was always present. Yeah. Yeah. And I love the opening of the foundation that really just takes you there and paints a really great picture of tabernacle.

Yeah.

Heck, yeah.

Little preacher Ty, he still lives in me more than. More than ever now.

This really is one of those episodes you carry with you long after they're over. There's a moment coming up that you're going to feel before Ty even finishes saying it. You'll know it when you get there.

So find out more about their mission and how you can be a part of it, too, at glaad.org — that's G-L-A-A-D dot org.

You've done a really good job, I believe, of reconciling your faith with being gay. And I feel like we're so far beyond the should of needing to have these conversations, but we still need to have these conversations. And so I love that your book, you know, it just is. It doesn't go into the. You know, it's a. I don't want to. I don't want. You need to read it. So I'm not going to, like, say the things that it talks about, but. But there is, you know, the. You go into this stuff with the preacher and, you know, the. Those who protected you and the ages of what happened and.

Moments of glimmering hope that have always been there in the worst of times. Yeah, there's just always been a seed of love and hope that grew from something bad. And I truly believe with all my heart, that kind of spiritual foundation that you can't have at any age but was put in me at such an early age is what saved me on so many days. Because I can truly say on my loneliest and lowest points, I didn't feel alone. I felt led. Even in 2020, you know when you're going through something that you feel like that your worthiness is worked out. You've been worth all you're going to be worth. And even in those moments, you tell yourself the craziest things. Forgive me for the word crazy, but you tell yourself that it's fine. This is the right decision. This is. This is. This is the best for everybody. You know, you've done some amazing work. You'll be remembered. And it's just, you know, there's no need to keep going. You know, it's just. Why bloody your nose again? Why, why. Why do that? And. And just. It's. I said this in the book. I. The amount of peace that's around, that kind of decision. Yeah. Is. Is. Is. That's the scary part. It's. It's. It's the really. The lies you're telling yourself. Sure. Because you have nowhere else to go. You have no. Nothing else to believe.

So I.

It's a. It's a dark, dark room.

It is being a fellow Christ follower, you know, I love God and.

But no shame in it.

Yeah, not at all.

Not at all.

I like to describe my spiritual walk differently than I think a lot of people. In our realm of faith, responsibility, sometimes.

You can't really say the word God. You got to say something bigger than you. Well, I don't.

You know, I'm just gonna throw it out. There is. I don't really like how a lot of people that share our. I don't. I don't like how a lot of people that follow or. Or profess to follow Christ have. Have done. And it's an icky situation.

Yeah. I only use it for people that just don't believe at all that. You know, I think you have to start with a. You have to start. You have to give baby steps with it because we both know where it leads. You know, it's a little seed of faith and it has to grow.

Well, in my faith isn't like, I'm not gonna give you a denomination, and then you say, oh, I got you. I know what you. No, I actually. I want you to know about my faith because of how unique it is. Like my fingerpr. There was a point it had to. I totally divorced myself from the faith I was raised with. It became my own, and I had to challenge doubt and unbelief. Had to become part of my story in order for God to be able to come in and do what he did. And this is where I want to get with you. Okay. Because we're about to have some church up in here.

I'm going to get with you.

Okay. So we're in such a polarized world right now.

All right.

We got gay and we got God.

Yeah.

Now, I don't think it needs to be like that. Right. Because I think God made you. God made me. And it were, you know. But when I asked you earlier about, you know, having the support and the reconciliation of your faith and your identity, I. And so many people have been in places where the faith is still there or. But, like, you can't get past somebody. His voices have prevented the process of bridging the gap between me and the God that I still believe is still there. And I would say that what should be in the middle is hope through that valley, but the hope because of a narrative others have.

Yes.

Okay. You, I feel like, had a different path. You had these people that put a bridge there for you. Now, it may have been a narrow bridge, but you at least had something to get you across that canyon. Yeah.

I never had to fight for it because I know it. I never had to. I never had to chase it, because I had it.

Yep.

And that's, it's always lived in me. And the fact that peop. You know, people say they want to say that, that I can't possibly have that kind of relationship because I'm gay. Well, if you know me, if you see me, ask my husband. I could just be having a conversation with you in the kitchen, and the Holy Spirit will just be all over me. It happened today on the phone. I was talking to a friend, and she said something that just, it's just something about God, something great about God. God's cool, you know, I don't know who you guys are talking about that would hate me, you know, I don't know what God you're talking about. You know, I don't, I don't know that God. And I'm sorry that you do.

Yeah.

But I don't, I won't fight you over something that you don't know. You know, and I just won't. And you want me to preach. But I did. I got, I was, I was, I got quiet for a minute, and she said, are you okay? I said, honey, I'm more than okay.

Yeah.

I said, you just blessed me. And, you know, I, I, I'm a flawed man. I am, you know, I, and I know it. But I know what my flaws are? Sometimes I find out a new one, you know, but I work diligently and hard to figure those things out. And the first place that I go, as my grandma says, to the cross, you know, I have to have to take a minute. We do it as a couple, you know, we have to, have to find our centering point and our knowing of who we are. And individually together we've had a. Some crazy things happen in our life, but it doesn't define us. You know, folks, you know, you can, you can be in the toughest spot and it doesn't have to define you. And you. And you're reading this book I have, you know, there's a song. If you're going through hell, just keep going. You know, the devil's been on my ass so many times that just, you know, I have an automatic eject. But it's just like, you know, leave me alone. This is not your space. And it's nothing for us to go through our house and put an anointing on the wall. You know, we're not fanatics about it, you know, but today we have to stand strong in a place where we're not attacked. And I truly mean this. I'm not going to fight you for something I believe, you know, because we're not going to believe the same way. But you're not going to tell me what I can and cannot believe.

Absolutely.

You're not going to stand in my house and in front of these blood and bones and tell me what I have and I don't have. And I will get strong with you about that.

I know you will. And so this is the point where I want to ask you for the mom and the dad, or the dad, you know, or the person that's fighting their own internalized homophobia because it doesn't resonate with or it conflicts, is a direct conflict with their faith. This isn't justifying yours, but speak to the person in their life, whether it's themselves, their son, their daughter, their brother, their father, the mother.

I hope that you don't have to get to a place where you're mourning the loss of your child. And you have to be, you know, spend the rest of your life thinking, I lost that kid because I didn't love him. Right. You know, I've had so many stories from recording a song like *God or the Gun*. And one of my that touches me the most is this really country boy redneck Dad. I was singing and speaking at an event and this was early on, and I met this guy, and he walked up to me and he said, I really appreciate what you said, you know, about love and that anybody can know God. And we're not going to always have the children we want to have, but we have the children that were chosen for us. Because I had a transgender son and he was 16 and I hated him. I know I didn't hate him now. I don't hate him now. But how I was raised. Hated him. I drove him 200 miles out of town, dropped him off, and he said, 124 hours later, he was. He was killed. And I still can't tell the story anyhow. No, this is the beautiful part. He got the whole world in his hands. That dad looked at me and he said, I would drive to every Walmart in America and buy every dress for him now if I could have him back. Don't do that to your kids. Good time to edit. Let's take a break. Why'd I tell that story? I knew. Yeah, Makeup.

I know you didn't think you were.

Gonna come up here and cry. Lord, I just. Ugly cry.

That story's so powerful.

It's an amazing question to ask as.

Well, because I don't normally get stumped for words in an interview, but, man,.

Some stories like that I don't include in the book because they're too personal. You know, I've just shared that with you because you asked that question. And that's the most powerful answer that I could give you from my own experience. Just to see a big old man like that, just to have a knowing and awakening, and I know he won't stop now trying to help other kids. And, you know, that's a tough spot to have to start.

Yeah, but.

The guy hadn't lost his love for his son. He gained more love than he ever know in his life. I just don't want people to have to have that kind of story.

Well, and look at how, you know, the man made some choices that had potentially had devastating consequences. Not saying that he caused it, but, you know, I think that he would probably go back and change everything that he did. Right. But we can't. Right? Like, we can't do that. But he was able to take the shame and guilt that he carried with that and do something different. And even just that story has changed.

It changed the ending. Yes, but it was the beginning. I write about this so much in the book. There's hope in the book. Because I was asked the other day, if you go back and change anything, would you change it? And epiphany and awakening hit me. It's like, no, I wouldn't. As hard as it's been and what I know today, I would have never landed sitting here talking to you. I would have never met my husband. You know, I don't want to do it all again, but to have this outcome and have the hope that I feel and I grow so much, and I've grown so much. I wouldn't want to do it all again, but I would.

I think that there's something beautiful to be said for, like, you know, as we work on our healing, we reconcile the truth about what happened, what happened to us, what we took part in.

It's about knowing the truth.

We know it, and we own it, and we embrace it. You stare it in the face and say, this is part of me. This is who I am. I am who I am today because of what happened to me, because of what I did and how I healed from it.

Yes. And in every tough room in this book, in every tough room that I hadn't been into sometimes, ever, something happened, but I hadn't been back ever. I got to a place that I could take a nap there, that I could be okay there, because. And this was never about forgiving anybody. This was just about knowing myself and getting through something that damaged me.

One of my favorite things, because, you know, I do a lot of talks for. Well, I don't know if you know this or not, but a lot of what I do when people aren't seeing me on camera, I'll go to, like, colleges and different places to do mental health talks for students and things. And one of my favorite things when I do a talk about trauma is to go to the place of. Reframing. The way we look at all the things that we've been raised in this society to look at in a black and white manner of being good or bad. When I listened to your book, I heard a man that was going through life doing the best he could. If you looked at a lot of the choices, if you isolated them, you could say, okay, well, that was a bad choice. If you look at it in the big picture, is, to me, easy to look and go, okay, yeah. If he hadn't made this choice, he may not have lived to the next day. So I'm gonna go. And you say, well, what do you mean by that? All right. Once I got sober from alcohol, I used to have very black and white thinking about, you know, sobriety. If you're an addict, there's one path, and I was presented over the years of working in the industry of mental health and addiction treatment with numerous cases of people that they did not have the capacity to get sober yet.

Right.

What they did have the capacity for was something in the middle that wasn't sober. It was sober ish. There are behaviors that can be harmful and maybe hurting you in the meantime, but did it also save you so that you could be alive the next day because it numbed whatever pain that was so strong that you didn't take yourself out?

Exactly.

That's what I mean by if you isolate the reaction to the trauma in the moment.

I love that.

Yeah, it looks bleak. What the f are you doing? But if you step back up to the 30,000 foot view, it makes sense. And you go, oh, duh.

It's so crazy for me to think that it took writing this book for me to even see the patterns. I mean, I'd done all the work at J Flowers and I, I knew what was going on with my blood and bones. We've talked about that. You know, I knew I, I knew that I'd been diagnosed bipolar. I knew that I'd been diagnosed ADHD. I knew that I. There was a reason the bumblebees were flying everywhere, you know, and getting those guys to slow down and fly, uniform and land, you know, was the greatest gift of my life. But I didn't have a clue that those little suckers were just flying me back to the same places every time, you know, and crash and burn, crash and burn. But there was this, that little 10 year old Pentecostal preacher guy that I was carrying around inside of me was still carrying the word, was still caring. That's the only time I believed in myself. The only time that I would, I would be laying on the floor, you see this many times in the book. And the only thing that got me up was that hand on the back of my neck, which was God. And, you know, and all I ever had to do was just call out his name. And even in the night that I had a handful of pills, a bottle full of pills, he still showed up, you know, he showed up letting an angel come. And my sweet little Josh, you know, my cousin that accidentally took a pill and died, you know, and he. I know people believe in angels and I think you have to have a spiritual foundation. And when you're in your worst way, people are going to show up, you know, dead or alive. But angels show up three times in this book and that's what they were, folks. And on that night, in 2020 New Year's Day, really early in the morning, that child said, look at what my death did to our family. They can't go through that again. Your life matters. And having Debbie Carroll and my good friend Debbie Carroll, we still argue, you know, this is how Jesus works. She said, she says I called her. I say she called me. You know, all that matters is the phone rang at 6:45 in the morning. And there we were talking and she said, you're having something. You're not good, are you? And I said, I cannot believe I'm talking to you right now. And for those who don't know, Debbie Carroll runs at the time was running MusiCares, whom I'd worked with many times. And God bless MusiCares and God bless Debbie Carroll.

She's still doing. It doesn't matter what institution she's working for, she's doing the same.

She's saving lives.

Yes.

Matter of fact, I gotta call her tomorrow. But she have. Before I knew it, she had me on the phone with Shireen Janti. And Shireen is a big personality. She's like, baby, she said, why don't we just take a walk down that hall, let's just go flush them pills, you know. And just. She had me in the most awful place I'd ever been and she had me laughing within the hour. I was like, I like you. She goes, oh, baby, I'm here for the long haul. You know, she God sent me this bodacious, loud, awesome woman that I could hear. And Debbie knew that. She, you know, which is a three way call. And it was 7am the next morning that I was on an airplane. I was taken care of. And this is why I'm so passionate in this book about that. You know, the phone will ring for you and you know there will, a way will happen, it just will if you're just brave enough to take that step and we do it, you know, we're not perfect. Like I said, you know, we have to take those steps, make those phone calls.

But this is where I'm going to challenge you.

Come on. Okay.

Because you and I, I will say that there's our bridge of hope looks a little bit differently. I think that yours was a bit stronger because mine separated me quite a bit from faith, but it didn't separate me from. It was different. But there are a lot of people that did not have primary caregivers or people early in their life to help set a foundation of relentlessness, of tenacity. You're right. Just rooted in this perseverance to even in the darkest of nights, there can be hope. Like, you know, I'm gonna give a metaphor for people who are like, what are they?

Tired?

We like metaphors. Okay. So you know, as a kid, you know, you think about how like at your youngest age, most all kids are afraid of the dark. But once you either play hide and seek enough times with all the lights turned off, or you navigate your parents house to go down and sneak cookies, even though you're scared or whatever, you know, you know, okay, well, the dark, scary. I don't know what could be down here, but I know that I'm going to get back to where the light is eventually, even if I can't see anything in front of my face.

Right. Well, I think that's why we do what we're doing right now. Because my experience and my journey is going to be way different than yours. But without you knowing my story and hearing stories of hope, then you're so right. I mean, that was a light bulb for me right there. Because yes, we are, we're sharing our experience, strength and hope, which is an old saying, but a good saying. And that, that hope has to go somewhere.

That's right.

You know, and maybe it's that 14 year old kid that's. That's chasing his dream to come do music, but he has no support. And what I learned is that, yeah, I had a lot of support growing up, but I've talked to a lot of kids, grownups who didn't have any, but they learned to have faith in themselves. They learned the inner, I mean, for me, inner strength was not there growing up. I had it from other people.

You did. But again, you know, I love to challenge. I love to, I don't want to say play as devil's advocate, but challenge to some extent, we don't use that.

Word in our house.

I know, which is why I said epigesus.

Challenge.

Yes. Okay, so you did have the support from people. And while you didn't, you said, you know, at many stages you didn't have it in yourself. I think one of the big things that this book reveals is you had so many periods where you had a veil in between even those people.

Oh yeah. I didn't want them to see the real me.

No. Do you remember or what would you identify as the first big thing that was out of your control that you had to hide?

Well, you'll see the book. I got married twice. I, you know, I went to great lengths for you not to see me. Went to great lengths to cover a beautiful part of myself up so that I could be in a genre and a career that I loved with all my heart. And I still love it today. I've never blamed the genre, you know, I've just, I've had no tools to navigate those waters at all. And I had a lot of powerful people telling me what I should do. And I don't regret those decisions. You know, I don't think that the ladies that married me regret those decisions. I talk about this in the book. They gave me a great gift and they go down the halls of my blood and bones of gratefulness. I honor them, you know, but wow, There's a moment in this book where you feel the turning point and you think I'm there and I was there and something out of your control can happen. And for me it was all that work, five years of it. Back to a, you know, a 40 city tour, highest money I'd ever made, a made for TV movie sponsorships. I was back. And then the day the world stopped turning, I looked at, I got a phone call, the tour had been canceled. I got a phone call, the TV stuff had been canceled. Not to do it again, but just canceled. Not to rebook, but canceled. And I don't run into excuses that I'm saying this is, you know, I hate you because this happened to me because of you. There was nobody to hate. It was just what it was. And looking out the window, I was living in the gulch here in Nashville at the time. And it was like, where were the damn zombies? Because I looked out the window and there was just paper flying the street, the balconies across the way that people were always on and flowers and stuff. The windows were closed, the curtains were closed. It was Armageddon. And for a guy like me who fills everything so deeply, and I know you know this and I know you're the same way and God bless the addicts out there at that time because it was nothing but a license to use. There was, we couldn't even get to meetings. You know, it was, it was in the online meetings, eventually happened, but I felt the cell door, cell block doors lock. And I mean, I, I, I, I, my relationship was pretty much over. And you know, I was, we were living separately. It's just like the, the, the boats kept tumbling and the walls kept. I know this is such a true story for many of you out there. And there were so many success stories, but I was not one of them. I would say that then, but I was one of them. What came from all that grew me in a way that only me and God could handle.

Well, because at the time, how would you have defined success?

Numbers. You know, my whole life depended on shows, admiration of people, but they were admiring someone that wasn't real. And it was so hard. You know, I'd come out by then, but I was still holding on to a lot of trauma. Things were buried so deep, all of it wasn't healed. And this certainly brought it all to the surface. Except for a few rooms that I'd never talked about. There was still. There was still a cancer living in me of secrets and lies and, And. And a couple of big truths that I never wanted to talk about.

Well, speaking of that, I want to ask you specifically numbers to me. I think you could talk to me for five seconds and be like, that is not a numbers guy.

I am very.

I'm much more of a people person. And, you know, but. But I do love a good statistic to tell a story, and this one blows my mind and also doesn't shock me. And I think it's also too conservative. It is estimated that only 10% of male sexual abuse. Sexual abuse that happens to men in the United States is not just officially reported, but reported even just to people in their lives that they love and trust.

Oh, yeah.

Meaning the estimate is it's 90% untold. 90 plus percent untold.

I know. Yeah.

I just had to reverse that. For anybody who's like, I don't like percentage anyway, so. And I still, I think, you know, working again, working in the industry where I. We get. I would say I get to walk alongside men dealing with these things. The number, I mean, it's, It's. If you had asked me to put a per percentage on it, I would say 99% of men have experienced some form of, you know, and at least that end up, I don't know. So where I'm going with that is you get open about something that you actually. And I know this because you told me as your friend, you had not been able to get honest with yourself about truly what it was.

It's painful. It sets a pace for the rest of your life that makes you blame yourself. You get full of shame and guilt. And it took me a long time to say the word rape, because men don't get raped. Well, yes, they do. And I got. It was. I was 21, just turned 21 years old on a national TV show. And for years I said, well, you know, I participated. I got on the elevator, went up to the room, I took the drink. You know, I, for the very first time in my life did the drugs. And what played out after that, surely it was my fault. And you know, I started out wanting to participate, but I ended up very much not wanting to. And as the hours went by which I never wanted to think about, the level of, of pain and excruciating mental breakdown was too much for a 21 year old and it was too much for anybody. And it was done so casually and so like it didn't matter. That set me on my first journey of worthlessness and blaming myself for everything. And also it was the first time I medicated and it was. I always tell myself I'm going to have a lot of tears about this because this was never about identifying an assailant, even though it was never a Me Too moment. You know, it was something really awful that happened and that I was later told happens all the time in Hollywood. You know, hey, you still want to have your career? When I was brave enough to finally tell the, the producers and I was shut down right then, said, you do not tell this story to anyone else and if you want to have a career. And I was already lined up to do many TV shows. And I won't say that it wasn't met with sympathy. It was, but it was just kind of, listen, this is Hollywood, kid, you know, and next time you'll know better.

When they said don't tell anyone else, was it because. Because at the time it could have the whole idea of you potentially again, like you were saying, this idea about men is that if it happened, it had to have been consensual. And so do you think that it was more about that potential of everybody just thinking that you were then gay and therefore you wouldn't have the.

Absolutely.

So it wasn't the power, it wasn't the power that this, it wasn't exclusively the power that this person wielded that they could end your career because of it. It was social perception.

Yes, well, it was, it would. I, it would have told the world about my big secret. And that would have be. Talk about being in danger of a kid actually go ahead and jumping off that 20, the 14 4th balcony. That was angel number two or angel number one. I've gone round and round with my spirit about this and it's hard for you to say, well, that was supposed to happen or this was a part of my journey. My journey would have ended up right here just fine without that. I know that, you know, it would have. I mentally got damaged that day. I had no idea how to deal with it. And I wasn't going to talk to a counselor. Also revealing my secret. So there was not an ounce of authenticity that I could ever possibly have, and yet I could walk on that stage and bring crowds to their feet, have three standing ovations, and I saw the potential of where I was going, and I certainly wanted that. And I could never think about that again. I'd be fine.

You were already a showman. What did that experience do for your showmanship? What did that experience do for your future?

Well, for a long time, it pulled my showmanship from a 10 back down to a 2. You know, I was so terrible that third night of Star Search that I was so traumatized that I sounded like a bad version of Kermit the Frog. I mean, I wish I could get my hands on that tape, because they flew the producers down to Nashville, and I stood in the studio, watched the monitor, and mimicked my lips to get the song right. So when time it aired, it was perfect. So it made no sense at all that I lost. But I was grateful that they did it, because I certainly didn't want the world see that.

Yeah.

And even my own family were like, wow, you did great. I can't believe they gave you a one star. Well, I deserved a zero star that day. And I didn't put myself there. I didn't do that, you know, And I had to go be on camera the very next day. I don't know. That's the strength of my mother and grandmother and me, because I don't know how the hell I did that. I didn't sing. Well, Talk to Mark Miller for Sawyer Brown. We were on this same show. We made it all the way to the finals. You know, he didn't say this to me until I came back for the finals, and Mark said, man, did you have laryngitis? I said, I did, man. I was really sick. Yeah. So he said, well, I'm glad they fixed that on the tape, you know? So there it was again. And I felt so ashamed, you know, that I wanted to say what had happened to me, but I couldn't. And it became a prison. And I've just preferred to. I just chose to lock it away.

I appreciate you going into how it immediately affected you because that is such an important part of that story. But I don't know what. I don't know what has a more lasting scar, builds more scar tissue. That.

Yeah.

Or what follows. Because when I talk about. You were already a showman and the showmanship was huge. Moving forward, where I'm getting out with this is like, I know where you're going. Getting on stage and doing the Ty thing, you know, and, you know the. It's on.

Yeah. I had to develop that.

Switch it on.

It's not new.

Whatever was going on, turn it off.

You see people that walk on stage and they're one person and they walk off stage and they're completely different. I had to develop that guy because I think he would have come naturally. It would have been very authentic and funny and fun. But I was put in a position over the years that I had. If I didn't go on stage and make fun of myself and get them to laugh, my voice wasn't going to save me. They had to like me as a person. And that became my superpower. And I could do it. I could take over any room. I could be the biggest person in the room, or I could be the damn smallest person in the room. And if I stayed me, I would run.

That's interesting to me that that was the narrative that you told yourself about your voice, because I absolutely think of you as someone who has. There are a lot of singers in this town, a lot of singers who have made it, especially in your genre of music, that don't have a voice that is powerful. You have one that can do acrobatics.

Thank you.

Yeah. And. And so to hear you say those words that, like, your voice wouldn't hold the crowd wouldn't hold the this. You had to make people laugh, you.

Know, to make them laugh, first to be seen. I had to make. I had to make them comfortable before they would listen. And anytime I did it the opposite way, I would lose them.

Did you think that you were losing them, or do you, looking back now, do you really think that you were losing them, or was that just what.

You were telling them? I always had them up to the arrest. And after the national and media arrest, I became so broken at that point, I had to redevelop that guy who walked on stage. I became a comedian, and elements of that still remain. The healthy part, after I came out, I would walk on stage and first shows, people packed, and I would say after the second song, I would say, well, I guess you guys heard the big news. And the crowd, they gasp, you know, what's he going to say? And I said, I'm a vegetarian, you know, and they would fall out laughing. And that gave me the comfort that I could be there with them and do this show. It gave me the comfort that I could be authentic and tell stories. Never about me, but about family and, you know, beautiful things that had happened through music. And here's the best and most wonderful part. David Ritz pointed out something to me that if you'd had said this to me, you'd had to prove it to me. So he did. He goes, doing the timeline for this book. He goes, I know you got a little lost with it. He said, but all I had to do is refer to the music. He goes, you've been telling this story from the first song right up until today. He goes, I listened to all the catalog. He goes, and when this book was close to the finish, he was right. I've been screaming my story through music because it was the only safe place for me that I wouldn't be judged. You could judge me about my music because you're going to lose. Because I didn't know I could do that. You judged me about my life. You'd win. But, you know, stay away from me if you're going to judge me on this, because I'm telling you the truth. I'm not lying in this music. The only element probably wasn't true. I'm singing she instead of he. But, you know, that's. You can't judge me on that because I'm singing universal. Yeah. You know, my heart is singing the right pronoun. And the day I got to do that with *What Mattered Most* was glorious. Even the writers called me and they're like, way to go, man. I really stuck to the way that song should have been recorded, but I stuck to the original. And then to record it the third time with LeAnn. I mean, Gary Burr's like, I've never had a song have this much life. That was a book with a title. I said, yes, man. Yeah. Little did you know that a song would make such an impression, but David blew me away with that. You know, just. It just. It brought up through the years for the albums that were big, the albums that very few people saw and the ones that they didn't see had the most powerful songs on them, the ones that lay dormant. That's why I went back and took these songs. I moved Heaven and Earth, *Big Hopes*, which, you know, guests know. Alex sang with me on that kicking and screaming, but he did. He honored me with that. He did a great job. But the full circleness and things that have come to fruition, the level of integrity that this whole journey has brought me. I didn't know how to wear it, and I figured it out real fast because it felt good. We all deserve that. And I know how much work's ahead of me now in music, in life and marriage. And some days I'm scared to death, and other days I'm fearless. But I'm okay. I'm okay. And I get emotional again because for any of us to be able to say that I've had a bit of rubber on the road. I did not think I'd be here to see this. I'm grateful every day, even the bad days. And there's not a lot of this.

You do a really great job of painting a picture. Like I said from the very beginning, some of the stuff I didn't even know about your career, we have. You know, you just hadn't gone there before. You talk about back in the Opryland days and some of the people you started with. I had no idea that were. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's just such a cool. Even if you don't like country music, I'm telling you, it's good.

I got to go do Star Search. And Marty came in and filled in for me, and he did such a great job. And I came back and thought, well, this is. I lost after the second show. I thought, well, that was a great experience. With no one knowing what had happened to me, I came back and just lived in the persona of a performer and got that call six weeks later. Sam Harris, God bless him, my friend today, had won all these shows and his tuxtails and singing over the rainbow. And it took America's heart. And I got to go back because he won so many shows. There was no one to come back in the semifinals, but there are three people that he did four. So I was shocked to get that call. I was like. I really ran to my faith at that point, because I couldn't have survived that without it. I didn't try to understand it. I just. I just had to just let it be and turn the page. As my grandma used to say, you'll come back to it. You'll read it later. And lo and behold, I did. It was kind of the best part of the story for me to go back and do some healing in some rooms that were nightmares. But I got to go back, and I had to see some people I didn't want to see when I went back, you know, but was hard, but I got through it. And then I won. I won again. I won the semifinals and my. And. And against a great singer, Bo Williams. And I remember to this day because my little self thought, I'm never going to beat that guy. You know, He's. He's. And. And I was. You see it on my face on the camera? I was like, I got. I got. I'll just say it again. I got the Holy Ghost right then. I was. I did. I put my head up and said, thank you, God. You know, And. And then I knew it was up against Sam the next night, you know, and we became friends. And he said. He goes, I wasn't nervous until now, he says, but he said, you have a real good shot of winning this. I said, I've already won. I remember saying to him. I said. I said, I remember saying this to him. You'll never know my whole story, but I'm here, and this is a win for me. And I sang my butt off. I held that. Loved the world. I held that note to Jesus for five hours. It came to be. My dad was there. It was the last time. My dad, he got on his first airplane to come see me do this TV show, and he died two months later. And, you know, but I have him on camera standing up, and he was just beaming, you know. And you'll read this in the book, you know, it was. It was a hard story, my dad and I, you know, but through recovery and through a lot of really beautiful steps, you know, we were able just to heal each other and help he, you know, I sit face to face with a guy that became my dad, and I got to say some things I needed to say, and he got to tell me how much he loved me. And I knew that to be true. I finally got to hear him say it, though. There's so much power in. And the things that you're most scared of.

What were you most scared of back then?

Back then that I would be found out that I, you know, that I couldn't be in an industry that I loved with all my heart, that I was going to be kicked out of it, and I was going to be thrown out, you know, kicked out of town. And I couldn't let that happen because I was. The gift that I received was too good. It was bigger than me. It always has been. Some days it still is. So I got to singing with Michael Passens. You guys, the song will be out by then, but I can't tell you.

So today it's out?

Yes. Okay.

Figuratively.

No, no, no. It won't be out yet. One of those moments was singing with Michael Passens because the boy can sing. He hadn't been in the studio in a long, long time. And Melissa Green came in. You know, former Avalon. She hadn't been in the studio in a while, and it was like getting on beautiful, refurbished, expensive bikes and going for a ride. And we were laughing, and Michael, it was in there. He was supposed to hit this really big note towards the end, and he kind of went to a falsetto thing, and I said. I said, you got that full voice. You earned that.

Yeah.

He goes, you're right. I do. You hear it on this record. He goes up and bells that note, and you almost have to tell him to stop. And this is why I love life and I love music. It just was such a healing day.

And when you say I get tingles down my spine because I told him this when we did the interview. And I don't remember if it was when the cameras were rolling or not, but I'm gonna say live now that he.

I've.

I've seen that man sing Testify to Love a thousand times, if not a million, you know, five. A thousand times.

An awakening and stuff he's writing right now.

When he sang last, when he came back for the first time last summer, the CMA Week concert for Love and Acceptance, I. I heard him sing that song.

He stole the show.

I loved it. It wasn't that soft velvet anymore that he sang for all the years he was traveling with Avalon. He sang full ch. I mean, like, chest, and I mean, like. So when you say hadn't been in the studio for a long time, I'm like, yeah, that man's voice is stronger than it ever has been, both figuratively and musically.

Can't wait to see what he does next. He's a wonderful human being, and just in the whole process right now, making music, I look over my husband because he knows this. We've just seen some fantastic things happen that just really been out of nowhere.

It's.

It's. And it's. To see that in Michael, to see it in a producer, to see it in Melissa, to see it in 12 LGBTQ artists that have come to town and that did our show and they're doing well, come in and be a part of that and be a choir behind Michael. And so proud to do it, to see us moving forward like that and to see actual hope and excitement in these young artists that they could probably do this. We can make this happen. And to think that we had. I told Zeke Stokes the other day, my manager said, to think that we had just a little part of that makes me so proud. You know, it makes me so proud because, you know, it should they're like my kids, you know, I just. I just. I love them, and I champion everybody. In a business where people just don't do it much anymore, I hope that I pay that forward.

You absolutely do. And I think you're one of the people that, in entertainment has given both me and other people a great example of that. As you move forward, you are constantly reaching your head backwards to lift up the person behind you.

I wouldn't have survived. There weren't people doing that for me. So it's something that I do with great honor. We have to do that for each other. Have to.

Well, we don't, because there are a lot of people that don't.

No, you're right.

And I think that there's a number of reasons, but many people, the entertainment industry, the world in general, corporate, there's a lot of just do for yourself, work hard, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get it done. And a lot of people operate that way. They were never told or taught or shown. Nobody was pulling their hand up behind them, in front of them. And so I think being able to have these conversations and say, no, no, no, no, no. If you haven't been shown that you're worth more, you're around the wrong people. Find your tribe where somebody who is working, who is farther along than you.

Yeah.

Is reaching back.

Yes.

Have lift you up.

And that is our heart. That's my heart. I had an artist say to me one time, a pretty close friend said, hey, you need to stop asking all these people to sing with you, because it just kind of feels like a. A desperate attempt to be seen. And, you know, it took me a minute on that, and I was able to look at her and say the right thing. I was like, do you not understand that I actually enjoy this? I have sang with people my whole life, and if I asked you to sing with me, it's because I wanted to sing with you. I've got plenty of ways to get attention. That's not one of them. And apologize. No, no, I said, because you probably really felt that way. But I need you to see me differently. This is all about being seen and seen differently for the authentic person that you are. And that's sometimes so hard to live in. But that was a perfect example of why I did. I wanted to do this book because I think I didn't know it would turn out like it turned out. I didn't know that I'd be sitting in an interview with People magazine and the guy would stop me and he says and have tears and. And say, you know, this helped me. I had the longest, biggest problem my whole life. Just to shut up, say, thank you. I just to soak that in and say, okay, thank you. Thank you.

One of my favorite conversations to have with other people in the LGBTQ community, especially people, you know, LGBTQ of faith, raised in the South. We do so much masking, and it's something that the term we've talked about most society. If you've heard the term masking, you probably associate it to queer people putting on whatever they need to in order to protect themselves or assimilate into society or whatever. And now that term is being used so much more in mental health circles and things to help people understand is not exclusive to the LGBTQ community. And that's where I like to shed this light on. If you feel like you're like, why am I connecting with this story? Well, because every single one of us, we're given a narrative, something set before us, a lie that was told about what we had or needed to be in order to be the successful actuation, you know, that mom and dad or whoever set out before us that was either unachievable or just not meant for you, or you were told lies about who you were that weren't true because somebody was abusive. Yeah.

Glad I didn't believe.

Yeah. And so whatever the case may be, I think it's really hard for somebody to say, I've never had to mask. I don't have to. I think that there's a certain degree that we all living in this society have had to do that for safety, for assimilation, for getting the job we need to in order to.

It's crazy. It's crazy to think this, but as it's happened to me, be careful how long and how hard you wear that mask, because it will show exactly who you are.

Yeah. But first you have to know that you're wearing the mask.

Yes. Yes. I'm talking about a conversation where yours is off, someone else is wearing it, or someone is going so hard at you for something that they believe that's wrong about you. Well, if you're sitting in that chair, you probably were in this chair yesterday. And I know that that's my. My spirit knows that. Yeah. And that's where I exit a conversation, because you cannot argue with what someone thinks they know. Right. You have to be really, really calm and. And. And having a lot of knowledge about your own self.

Well, if somebody's. If somebody's trying to talk journey. Yeah. If somebody's if somebody's sitting there trying to talk to you about. They've already decided.

Yeah.

What's the conversation?

Well, Shelly Wright. I talked to her because she knows she's my sister and I missed her, but she's been anticipating this book and she called me just to say, okay, now there's going to be many great things about this, but are you prepared for the things that aren't so great? Are you prepared for the people online who are going to tear you down? Are you prepared for the people who are going to tune and call BS? Are you prepared for the people. And I stopped her. I said, I lived that my whole life. Yes. And so those people don't have any power, you know, she goes, thank you, but I needed you to say that. Yeah. And you know, I've been critiqued from head to toe my. From my first record, you know, even earlier. I care about what people think. I do. But I care about what the right people think. Sure. Yes. You're going to come at me and you want to talk to me about something that, that you're passionate about and I love you and I trust you. I will have that conversation all day long and I will open up to you and I will tell you, you know, the truth, but you come in a different direction. I'm going to say, bless your heart, I'm going to love you anyway, but I'm not having this conversation with you. This is not a grown up conversation. So it's not up to me to change your mind about me. Yeah. So people. Gay going to be gay people going to say what they say.

Right.

She said that at the GLAAD Awards and I fell out laughing. Gay people gonna be gay.

Gay people be gay.

Gay people. Christian people be gay. Christian people. You know,.

Gotta love Quinta Brunson. Who was it that you said has to be prepared for? She said, you're gonna have to be prepared for all the negative commentary.

Shelley. Shelly.

Shelly Wright. That's okay. That's right. That's okay. Shelly can say that. No.

So she saw our godmother.

It is true. I mean, as a good friend, I think that we're called to point stuff out for our friends and just say, hey, have you thought about this?

And I love having those people in my life.

As a journalist, I want to ask you some tough questions. So what are some of those things that have been themes that you're willing to share right now or even just one that hurts that's not true. And that you've had to let go of?

Well, for, for years. The rumors about the arrest and you know, all the, all the, the craziness, you know, that people were talking about and saying that they were so wrong. And I didn't feel the need to, to defend myself, you know, it was too much. So getting to walk through that. And David, visually, you're walking with me through it. You feel everything I feel in that. And that will be the first time I think I'll feel. It was the first time I feel really understood about it. And again, not blaming anyone, you know, I walked into a situation that was, that was heinous. And the after effect of that was not a ride I ever expected to take. My biggest, my biggest fear that I had protected all that time was now exposed. I thought that was it. I thought, okay, I'm going to be going back to school. I'm going to have to do something if people will even have me do that, you know, if I'm the best I can be, maybe teach music lessons. That's where I was. And I thought I was done. And that was the only time. Well, maybe not the only time. That was the time that I got so angry at God, I was like, I am not your child. You know how mean you are. And you know, you must hate me, you know, well, I hate you too. Just all these things. And why weren't you there for me with this? You know, this is the dream. You gave me this dream, you know, why would you destroy it? Where I had the land way down the road was, had nothing to do with it. I made the choices based on some really bad stuff. Still trying to cover up a lot of pain that happened to me way early on, starting with that nine year old kid. You see this happening throughout the book. You see where it's going and then you go, oh, no, here we go again, you know. Oh, come on, Ty, wake up. You gotta see this. You take that ride in this book. Wake up, man. Did you not see? You're going, you're racing towards that same wall. Are you really gonna crash into it again? And you go with me. You hit that wall hard with me. And yeah, there's a lot of those to answer that question. But I'll close this little segment with this. I had hesitation from Mama because Mama Peggy, this is a book about her too. Mama Peggy is throughout this book. I had. This is when it happened. She had it for a week. And she said, come on over. I did. And all she said, son, I love you. How does redemption feel? How does redemption feel? She said every word, all of it is beautiful. She learned some things about me that she didn't even know. And she said, I can make sense of this now. And I felt bad that I had not told her, you know, but I didn't. There's so many things I thought were put to bed with my own mom weren't. So it brought her peace. And she just. Sorry. Sorry you had to go through that. You know, there were moments I just. I just loved you harder. And then she said, you know, people have said we have a very codependent relationship. She goes, I said that to her. She said, well, absolutely. She goes, if it weren't for that codependent relationship, you'd be dead, son. This is a woman who got on an airplane and at the worst time of my life. And all she did, it was 72 hours for her. She came to say goodbye to me and showed me a picture of my coffin. Very powerful moment in the book. If that didn't wake me up, I don't know that anything would have ever. And it did. And I got, you know, I got on the airplane the next morning, everything. Plane ticket, I walked. I knew I wanted to not be in that coffin. And if that isn't love and talking about parents who need to love their kids no matter what, that's what love looks like in its worst and its best moment. You know, I love that woman hard after that, you know, just like Mom. And it was about her being brave. It's what she was doing for her child. And she meant it. She did. No longer wanted to see me live that way. Son, we'll be okay. We'll get through it. But, you know, you're going to be with your dad. Keep this up. I've accepted that bitterness.

I didn't know you back then. And I don't know the answer to this, which is obviously why I'm asking the question. But I feel like you are in many ways the same time. Maybe you show up differently. But, you know, knowing the story that I knew before the book, then after the book, all the things, I feel like, I would have had a lot more resentment and bitterness that not just internally, but like, boiled out and, you know, was evident. And from loss of what should have could have been to people that you started out with doing things that I feel like you probably. Well, no, you have said, you know, that was what, at the time, I would have defined success as. Did you walk through valleys of bitterness?

No, I walked through valleys of sorrow. I never got bitter. And I credit that to back to that spiritual foundation. Because I remember sitting in the treatment center, Sierra Tucson. This was not even 24 hours after that arrest. And although I had to go up to Sony and apologize to everybody and I was met with great love there. That never gave me a chance to be bitter towards any of them. Love has always met me hard on. You can't be bitter about that. And I never have been. I have been tremendously blessed to have one door that meant everything to me closed and then have another that wasn't a door out of desperation. It was an actual door that was opened for me. And what was I going to do with it? Some new information. Remember standing and was in. I was in line getting food. My third week in treatment. Treatment number one.

What was the door that was closed and what was the door that was open?

I thought my career was gone. And I was sitting in that treatment center going, what's. God, grant me serenity. Accept the things I cannot change. Which I didn't ever. I never heard the serenity prayer when I was there. That was a different. That was more of a tuck Ty away. Let us do some damage control. But I didn't know they were doing damage control. I just thought, okay, this is just for this to settle down. I'm going to go home. They're not going to keep me on this record label. And I don't blame them. And they spent all this money on me and I've become the greatest disappointment ever. And. And sometimes I'll go. Sometimes still I'll go, okay, I'm going to be still long enough for you to give me a sign. I'm be still long enough for me to move inside and be calm. Be still. And you'll ask. Ask Alex. You know, I had to learn to listen. You know, every day I learned to listen better. It wasn't something I did well, but I was in line to get food and my song had dropped from number five all the way to number 200. I knew that it was gone. *I Want My Goodbye Back*. How ironic is that song? And the guy in the kitchen's blaring country radio. And I just happened to be sitting there, it was a Sunday. And he says, and here's Ty Herndon back up from 200. Land him right back at number five with *I Want My Goodbye Back*. Looks like the boy's going to be okay. Wow. Sony had gone out and spun it so hard and so real to the closest of the truth that they could. Which I actually thought that I would get out of there and be able to come out and find something to do. But what happened wasn't that the heat got turned up so much that I. They. They totally spun. And I don't blame them for this. That. The whole married thing. So that launched Renee and I into something that probably would have. We've only been married probably a year, you know, and then, you know, had the amicable divorce. It was a plan and. But what it did was launch my partner at the time we'd been with a long time into chaos. Launched Renee deeper into this marriage and cover of People magazine that I saw sitting in treatment. We were on the cover and, you know, Herndon's sorry, it was a drug problem, and somebody's going to stand behind him. And I'm getting all this information secondhand. I didn't know what was real, what wasn't, but. And then having counselors in a treatment center say, yeah, people will never forget this, and you will never have the career that you're. That you were destined to have. And that turned out to be true. And I was set to go into stadiums. And that was the regrets I had to let go of. I never got bitter about it. I just knew that the trajectory had changed, that what I would get from this day forward wouldn't be opening acts. It wouldn't be on tour with other people. It would be me and me alone out there singing my songs. And that's what happened. Fairs, festivals, casinos. I made good money. I was able to buy a house. Some of the dream came back, but the world did not know the truth about me. And they could not steal. And the truth had been slammed in front of them. And talk about a moment ago, who the hell am I? Are you really going to go back and do this? Of course I was.

Of course you were. But it wasn't something that you had ever thought about being a possibility of a reality. Would it be incorrect in saying that?

Very correct. Yes, very correct. It should have been done. But that's why there's no bitterness. There was love in the room. I had formed relationships with people that genuinely loved me. And I was known as the nicest guy on campus around the halls of Sony Music. And I was. I went to dinner with people. I hung out with people. I was grateful. And that was even before the arrest. I had. I had a chance to get to know people, and yet I was still battling. The meth was still in the back pocket.

Yeah.

You know, but I became my sponsor, and I laughed about this a few times and that I was a functioning addict before I even knew what the.

Word was, so was I. Before I ever took my first drink.

Or drug, I could suit up and show up. Yeah. And then I don't know how I got through those days other than love and grace and kindness and faith and hope and hope.

I lost hope for a while.

For a good, long while I did. I had an album title called *Big Hopes* that was set to be a huge single that never got released. So, no, there was a song in my whole catalog I wanted to resurrect in a special way. It was *Big Hopes*.

You know, it's interesting to me that you say that, because for me, hope is what carries me in the valleys of doubt. That's one of the things I talk about many times whenever I speak about my faith and this freedom that I'm in when I. In the truest forms of my relationship with God, I am fully okay with the fact that I have hours, sometimes days, and there have been times that they were weeks where I felt so far from God or I just didn't feel the presence that I knew that I had so much of my life felt overwhelmingly convinced was there. I was never raised in a realm where it was okay to embrace doubt. I was terrified. I was terrified to admit to myself. So I never let myself.

Right.

I never let myself go to that place.

Yeah.

12 Steps and many other things that led me through, you know, through the layers of the onion path, redefining my, you know, breaking down, redefining my faith got me to the point where I've been able to say, I don't know why I'm full. I know that I have all these. These. These scenarios that right now I could sit there and peek, pick apart and say, well, that coincidental, this could all be explained away, whatever. But I know that at many, many periods of my life I have been convinced and known and had full faith that this was God at work in my life. I feel disconnected from that belief right now, and I can't touch it for some reason. But I have hope that I'll get back to that place. And hope has been what's carried me from those valleys where I can't access my faith.

Well, you know, I. I do a lot of scenarios about that. I had to build a room. You know, my town is small but quaint.

Yeah.

But I had to build a room in my church that where my. Like my grandma said, God's busy, you know, go sit down at the table. You need something. If you want to get fed, go sit at the table. So I had to build that table. That came from my grandmother. And in times when I'm not feeling hopeful about that, which sometimes in my darkest moments, I'm feeling a little bit lost, I might just get up from the couch and go sit at the table. And he's seen me do this, Alex, and I'm taking a seat that I need to take just to say, I need a little help. I need a little guidance. God's always with us. You know, my grandma, bless her heart, you know, that was just. That was. It was scenarios, as she called them, that bring you back to you. And we're all going to get a little lost, even in the healthiest of us. The wellness is part of wellness to doubt. And. It's part of your responsibility to yourself to ask yourself questions about yourself. And I do that a lot. That's not doubt for me. That's just me figuring it out. So, yeah, so I go take a seat at the table. That's just what I do. You know, I love that I can do that.

Well, you do that and you also do it for others. I didn't know if I was going to share this or not, but I think I told you a little bit in response, but now I'm going to try and not cry. You had no idea. Y'all Ty every now and then gets a little word from God for people in his life and shares it with them. And I was having a really tough couple of days a couple weeks ago, and he sent me a couple paragraph texts that was like, encouragement about the very things that I was deeply, deeply in struggling with that no one could have known because I hadn't been. I hadn't even told my therapist.

And.

I mean, I sat there and cried and cried and cried because it was a moment where I was like, won't he do it? And when I say he, I mean God, right?

Like.

Cause, you know, coincidence, you can say all day long. But this was just another one of those scenarios for the books. For me, that, that, that I only hope in every, every way, shape and form, I can be a conduit of hope and connection for people to healing and people to a source of connection to the divine. And I love that you are doing just that.

We're here. We are all fully grown up, and we are receivers.

Amen.

When we receive, we have to. And when every time something like that happens for me, you came into my head, you know, and it's just. It's just connection. And that's the gift of all this. When you start learning and talking and moving forward. You. You get the gift of connection. And I know our own house, it blows us away sometimes. And I get. Believe me, I get those from people. So I'm just paying it forward. I really am. And you never have to question where it's going, and that's the beautiful part about it.

So I think if I felt like I needed to question it, I would. Like. It wouldn't have been so powerful, you know? Yeah.

So I think we. You know, with that said, that's. There have been so many tiny, little amazing miracles that have happened throughout the process of this book that have grown me in ways I could never really explain. It's given me rocket fuel, it's given me confidence, it's given me peace. It's given me knowledge. It's raised me up to a place that I need to be for the future. It is the absolute truth. And there are moments that are really, really hard. You'll want to put it down, but then just hang in there because it'll make you laugh. Because I. I have to laugh. Have to. Stories, man.

There's so much every. I think every devastation in the book is met with even greater resilience and hope. And, I mean, if there. If it's not the definition of the hero's journey, then what? I don't know what is. And, you know, I have saved this. Been riding the fence on this question, but I really want to ask you, and if you. If you decide you want me to cut it, I. Absolutely. I'll cut, you know, being believed.

Mm.

That is a thing.

That shit.

I don't want to, you know, say that every human walking this earth doesn't struggle with. At some point, in some way, shape or form.

Sure.

But there is a uniqueness to how we struggle in. In the shoes of being queer.

Yes.

Foundationally.

Yes.

Then you add, on top of that, being a public figure.

Yes.

In entertainment scandal, through the career stuff. People telling lies, abuse, trauma.

More stuff.

Addiction.

Yeah. You've.

You've had to navigate waters of people not believing you.

Yes.

People close to you not believing you.

Yes.

Or betrayal and perpetuating things that weren't true that went against the work that you had done on yourself. I'm bringing this up because this is my. Because you're my friend. And this is something that I believe has so much power to heal other people.

Power in the blood.

I feel like. Well, I'm not going to go into speculation about why that you didn't detail.

This,.

But it happened. I mean, it's happened.

I've seen it.

Again, you could choose to be bitter, you could sit in that, you could retaliate, and you have only used that to pull you closer to the divine, pull you closer to the people that you love. You've forgiven some of the people that have done it. And maybe you're back in. They're back in your life. Maybe they're not. I'm just curious if you'd speak to how that has affected you, how you've navigated it.

I bring up one time in the book that there have been times that I've been hurt, and what hurts me the most is that everybody makes mistakes. But if I've loved you and been in your life and we've done things for each other, how can you turn your back and walk away without even a willingness to have this friendship that I thought was real? How can I become so much of an enemy to you when I only wanted to be there for you? But to explore those stories, we would get into tit for tat. And, well, you did this and I did that. I'm not interested in that. But I wanted people to know when I said that in this book is that if I love you, I'm always going to love you. I'm not going to you say I said this or this about you. Well, I didn't know me enough to know that I wouldn't do that. And if I have your back, I'm always going to have your back. And you might have stabbed me hard in mind, but, you know, it's not going to make me not love you. That's how I was raised. It's who I am. From partners that went bad to betrayal to business people that stole money, to. You know, I guess you must have needed it more than I did. And, you know, I was raised that way. There's a different in anger than bitterness. You can love and you can be angry. Bitterness grows a seed of hate, and I don't have that in me. I've never hated anyone. And I don't plan on starting the.

One thing you haven't said, I'm going to say, okay, you've. You've had people accuse you of not being sober, of relapsing when you hadn't relapsed.

Yeah, but there were times that I had, so.

Right.

Yeah. So they got very confusing.

Sure.

Yeah. Some of the greatest moments of my life and things that have happened in sobriety, to have someone say, yeah, well, he wasn't sober, you know, that hurts a lot. Yeah. But then you also have to. I've got so many beautiful people in my life that would go, well, you're just full of crap. That is absolutely not true. You know, and I've owned my stuff.

Yeah.

I've got my bag over there, that stuff I've owned. And I know there'll be other stuff that goes in it. You know, I'm never gonna do this. Perfect. None of us will.

No, you're not. And I think that where I want to, I want to kind of want to pull out of this ultimately. And you've given some really great wisdom and just heart in the matter of that question.

Thank you.

Everybody deals with, even people who, you know, my story was one that didn't involve relapse. But I realize that I am a weirdo like most people.

I'm a weirdo. Yeah.

Like, I mean, but that's not normal. And so.

What do you.

The reason why I want to ask this is for that person who you're a public figure with a public platform. When you throw publicity in the mix is a lot more complicated. When you are needing to stuff rides on. You've got a machine behind you. Whether you're big or small, whatever level of success you're at in your career, it doesn't matter. You still have people depending on you for whatever portion you're contributing to, from your manager to your drummer to your this to your that, that care whether or not you're going to be able to function and show up. And that relies on you being sober. So there's. Do you know, there's this, I don't want to say separation, but I would say that there's a trust plus, like there's this. It feels weightier, you know, when you're in a position like what we're talking about where yeah, okay, relapse has been part of your story because you're a frickin recovering person. Right. So for the individual that struggles with their own internalized stuff about their legitimacy of recovery, their legitimacy of healing, people who don't believe their walk in the path they espouse themselves to now, you.

Know, I love this question so that they, you know, don't fear around it. Thank you for asking. I learned this early on, some things are not anybody's business when you're talking about your life and whatever's working for you. I mean, I've even, I've had betrayal at meetings. That said, for a long time, I wouldn't go, you know, because I was like, wait a minute, there's only one place you could have heard that. And I learned a lesson. Keith Urban told me this. You know, guard your information because your information can also be used as a weapon. And that is a big, scary thing when someone's trying to fight for their life. So for me and my house, what we do and where we're going with our recovery. And recovery comes in many spaces, many levels, from drinking to drugs to mental to. It's a big room, and you have to find. You have to find the place in that room that works for you. And if it's working for you, let it work for you and your family. It's nobody's business.

That's right.

You keep it personal and you keep it real. If you want to know more, just stay tuned to the next record in.

The next book and go, like I said, get the book. Do you know how hard it is to do an interview about a book release but not tell everything about the book you already know because you just listen to it?

Yeah, we gave a lot away today because the book's out.

No, hold on, hold on. But it is out. But I have to say, I'm patting myself on the back.

You did great.

So where's the best place you want people to buy the book?

This really helps a lot for any. Any new author. Author, you know, re. Do your own review there. There'll be links on the website today on socials where you can actually go and. And say, I got this book. I can't wait to read it. Something as simple as that, and then come back to it when you've read it and say you love it. If you hate it, say it nicely. But the reviews help spread the word of hope so that people will get out and participate in this story.

I know your heart. This book was not intended to fill your pockets. This book was meant to go out and change lives, but we all got to work, so let's change some lives. And I don't think there's a person in here that doesn't understand, at least at this point, the algorithm. So give some love to whatever form that you're connecting with this on social media, on the rating or whatever.

If you don't find hope in this book, then God bless you.

Ty, thank you for letting me revisit this iteration of your story.

I love how you're so tender about asking questions, and I love your care of that. I appreciate it greatly. It just, you know, I think we've proven of each other that we can be safe and fearless all at the same time. So that's why we love. That's what we love about you, Patrick. So.

So, Ty, last question. What mattered most.

Today? Today? Yeah, it's. It's where I land every day. But you ask this one, you know, I'm usually up first making a special cup of coffee and. And seeing how the day's gonna go, you know? Today, that's what matters most.

Ty Herndon, thank you so much with that. Catch us next week on the Patrick Custer Show. Let's go eat.