Transcripts
Welcome back to Unboxing Logistics.
Speaker:I'm your host, Lori Boyer from EasyPost.
Speaker:Look, I get a lot of questions around returns.
Speaker:Returns are a big deal.
Speaker:Returns are a huge challenge for retailers, and really the returns
Speaker:issue has kind of been having some shifts with what consumers are
Speaker:expecting and, and just what's, you know, retailers should do out there.
Speaker:So in response to that, I have brought on an incredible asset for you today
Speaker:to learn a little bit more about really kind of the state of returns right now.
Speaker:Blue Yonder just released their 2025 Consumer Retail Return Survey, and I have
Speaker:brought on Tim Robinson to discuss it.
Speaker:So we're gonna get into all those details.
Speaker:But Tim, welcome, can you introduce yourself to our Unboxing Logistics
Speaker:family here and, and let everybody know a little bit about you.
Speaker:Thanks, Lori.
Speaker:Thank you very much.
Speaker:I'm delighted to be to be talking to you today.
Speaker:Yeah, so my name's Tim Robinson and I work for Blue Yonder, the supply chain
Speaker:software and transformation business.
Speaker:The the bit of the business that I look after and am responsible for.
Speaker:Is all around ecommerce, multichannel retail, omnichannel retail.
Speaker:So order management and returns.
Speaker:And you can imagine from a supply chain perspective, only five, six years ago,
Speaker:returns weren't really a thing, weren't really spoken about at, at, you know, kind
Speaker:of enterprise supply chain level, but now are a very big part of our business, a big
Speaker:part of our relationships with customers.
Speaker:And, you know, the, the, our vision of the future, you know,
Speaker:managing the returns process.
Speaker:I'm delighted to be able to talk to you about it today.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm really excited because returns really are something that's super
Speaker:challenging for all retailers out there.
Speaker:The costs are growing and growing and growing and growing and, but
Speaker:you know, consumer expectations.
Speaker:Trying to meet that balance of how do we balance costs with also
Speaker:making sure our consumers and our customers are happy is rough.
Speaker:So I'm really excited to do that.
Speaker:Before we do that, Tim, one of the things I love that we do here on
Speaker:Unboxing Logistics is I ask everyone to share just a person from the industry
Speaker:that you really admire and why.
Speaker:I mean, in our industry it's a, it's a real toughie, isn't it?
Speaker:You know, because there's been so much change in recent years.
Speaker:You know, I, I, I often talk to people about how I've been in logistics supply
Speaker:chain my entire working life in various businesses at various shapes and sizes.
Speaker:And it wasn't that long ago that, you know, when you went to talk to the
Speaker:logistics professionals in a business, they were in a dusty office in the
Speaker:corner of a warehouse somewhere on the edge of an industrial estate, you know?
Speaker:But now, you know, we're all, you know, we are, we have C-suite executives running
Speaker:supply and super and responsible for this.
Speaker:So, so it kind of highlights the degree of transformation.
Speaker:And, you know, having, having described myself as a guy that
Speaker:kind of obsesses about omnichannel, retail, ecommerce you know, returns,
Speaker:customer experience, that you can't look much further than Amazon really.
Speaker:And I would say, I'm not sure it's one individual, 'cause you, it's pretty easy
Speaker:to say Jeff Bezos and his leadership and, and his vision for the business.
Speaker:But there have been some pretty phenomenal supply chain leaders in that
Speaker:business over the last 20, 30 years that I think have really set the scene.
Speaker:And it's down to them that, you know, retail, you know, logistics, manufacturing
Speaker:businesses, I think have C-suite supply chain leaders that now see supply chain
Speaker:as a point of differentiation, and a driver of customer satisfaction, and a
Speaker:driver of profits, and a driver of growth.
Speaker:I absolutely love that because I think it's something we all know, everybody's
Speaker:chasing Amazon and you know, trying to keep up with that, but really they
Speaker:created a complete shift in the way.
Speaker:This entire industry was viewed, and the way consumers viewed it.
Speaker:But you know, even the way internally, supply chain and logistics and
Speaker:great, great call out there, Tim.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I want us to, I, I'm just really excited.
Speaker:Okay, Tim, I am such a nerd about data and statistics, and
Speaker:this is like my happy place.
Speaker:So I'm really excited today to be diving into the results of this
Speaker:study, is fresh out of the oven.
Speaker:But first, can you gimme maybe a little bit of a background
Speaker:on what this survey is?
Speaker:You know, just who you, who's, where is it conducted, what's included?
Speaker:All, all that.
Speaker:Blue Yonder is a B2B business ultimately, you know, we, we, we license and,
Speaker:and software and, and, you know, partner with, with businesses.
Speaker:But you know, ultimately consumers shape demand.
Speaker:You know, they shape all of our careers, all of our day-to-day lives.
Speaker:You know, the, the choices we all have to make.
Speaker:And so and no more, no, there's no better example of that than when you
Speaker:come to ecommerce, you know, and, and modern shopping, put it, put it that way.
Speaker:The, the consumer's attitudes have changed significantly.
Speaker:You know, you made that point right up front.
Speaker:Consumer, consumer kind of, you know, preferences, you know, the
Speaker:things that influence consumer preferences are changing all the time.
Speaker:You know, the, and and I would also say that they're changing in
Speaker:a, in what is already a, a kind of challenging industry, challenging
Speaker:market to satisfy their basic needs.
Speaker:For some years as retail and, and consumerism moved from very traditional
Speaker:models, brick and mortar retail models to multichannel, you know, our, our
Speaker:customers, our partners were using things like free delivery, free returns.
Speaker:You know, ease, convenience as a point of differentiation.
Speaker:And it worked for a number of years.
Speaker:Some big businesses have been built on the back of those commitments and those
Speaker:concessions, you know, to consumers.
Speaker:But for a long time, the kind of the imp impact on the supply chain, the
Speaker:implications to sort of transportation, warehousing, planning, you know, sort of
Speaker:operating, operationalizing those needs weren't really, weren't really changing
Speaker:and weren't really being reflected.
Speaker:And so, and so, you know, I think businesses like Blue Yonder,
Speaker:a very good example, those of us that are in supply chain.
Speaker:Whilst we may not consider ourselves consumer businesses, we have to be
Speaker:consumed and obsessed by the consumer's attitude and their changing behaviors.
Speaker:'cause that, that's the, that's the light.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'm gonna stop you right there, because that was a awesome statement.
Speaker:While we are not consumer businesses, we need to be consumed
Speaker:with the consumer experience.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:That's so true.
Speaker:Love that, Tim.
Speaker:That our supply chains only exist because these people want to buy this stuff.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And, and so if we, if we aren't doing everything we can to predict what they
Speaker:might wanna buy, when they might wanna buy it, how they might wanna buy it, you
Speaker:know, from who they might wanna buy it.
Speaker:And building supply chains to satisfy that.
Speaker:We have we have little hope, I suspect.
Speaker:But when you think, so this survey is an example.
Speaker:We actually, we actually survey consumers in other areas, but this is
Speaker:a very good example of where, we have identified 6,000 consumers that that
Speaker:profess to understand returns, returns, customer experiences, and the impact
Speaker:of policy, which I'm sure we're gonna come onto later in this conversation.
Speaker:We've surveyed those consumers across the US, the big European markets uk,
Speaker:France, Germany, but also in, you know, those parts of the world and
Speaker:geographies where ecomm is a high as a high share of wallet like Australia
Speaker:and New Zealand, for example.
Speaker:So we've got a really good spread of respondents, you know, shopping in, in
Speaker:multiple different verticals and segments.
Speaker:It's not all fashion, you know.
Speaker:There's retail beyond fashion, is that why you're telling me, Tim?
Speaker:Yeah, apparently.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Apparently there is.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so do, and so it's been, it's, it's always been fascinating for me, you
Speaker:know, as a supply chain professional, getting the real life views of consumers.
Speaker:And, and you know, I I, I spent a number of years building a supply
Speaker:chain software business that delivered consumer experiences that was visible
Speaker:at the checkout of online retailers or visible at the, in the returns pages.
Speaker:And I loved it for that very reason.
Speaker:I, I love that too.
Speaker:Okay, so this survey, I mean, it's full of all kinds of
Speaker:insights of what's going on today.
Speaker:You know, 2025 has been a chaotic year, if nothing else.
Speaker:So if you, what things jumped out to you, Tim?
Speaker:What, what are, let's say there two or three or four findings,
Speaker:what, what were the things that kind of made you say, hmm, I see?
Speaker:So I would say the survey.
Speaker:The big thing that sort of jumped out for me was it reinforced
Speaker:some kind of headwinds that we'd seen in, we've all seen in the
Speaker:press over the last 12 months.
Speaker:And so this point about consumers will abandon a relationship with a
Speaker:retailer if they believe that the returns policies are too strict.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Or they're moving in the wrong direction.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And that really came out strongly in the survey.
Speaker:That consumers are, you know, of all of all demographics are way
Speaker:more switched in now to politics.
Speaker:Like, what am I allowed to do?
Speaker:You know, what's, what's, what's deemed reasonable in these circumstances?
Speaker:And if they believe a retailer is behaving unreasonably, they won't shop there.
Speaker:They'll move somewhere else.
Speaker:And, you know, we've seen it, you know, there's been some, some relatively high
Speaker:profile cases over the last few years, particularly in Europe, I'd say, where
Speaker:you know, fast fashion retailers have changed their returns policies, and
Speaker:it's literally been front page news.
Speaker:You know, thousands of consumers having their accounts suspended because of
Speaker:their propensity to return frequently.
Speaker:You know, that's been front page news and you know, on national news
Speaker:shows, I mean it's, and that's how important it is now, but it's a
Speaker:big driver of risk for retailers.
Speaker:It, it's a huge one.
Speaker:And I have this stat here.
Speaker:It is a little bit shocking to me.
Speaker:Eighty-four percent, your survey found, 84% of consumers say they'll stop
Speaker:shopping at their favorite retailer if the returns policies tighten.
Speaker:Their favorite.
Speaker:I mean, that's massive.
Speaker:That's so huge.
Speaker:They would stop shopping around, stop shopping at their favorite retailer.
Speaker:Their favorite retailer, they will abandon due to return policy.
Speaker:So do you feel like this is a growing trend?
Speaker:Is this similar to what we've been seeing in the past?
Speaker:No, I think it's growing.
Speaker:It's really growing because I think consumers are becoming more switched
Speaker:into this stuff, you know, and, and maybe reinforced by some of
Speaker:the findings later on in the survey around more and more consumers you
Speaker:know, now having a return refused.
Speaker:We'll come back to that one 'cause that's an interesting point.
Speaker:But, you know, because I think consumers have started to see a tightening
Speaker:of policies, a hardening of the retailer's position but also they're
Speaker:actually seeing it play out in their own relationships and therefore it
Speaker:reinforces their sense of injustice.
Speaker:If you think, and in many cases, I made the point earlier on that the growth
Speaker:of ecommerce has often has really been driven by concessions on behalf of
Speaker:the retailer around things like free, free, free delivery, free delivery,
Speaker:price, price, price, price, price.
Speaker:And you know, it's almost like consumers are saying like, hang on.
Speaker:Like you started it.
Speaker:Like, you got me here, right?
Speaker:You got me here because of these promises you made.
Speaker:I've now changed the way I shop.
Speaker:I've changed, you know, I've got, like, I, I can't, I can't look through the
Speaker:door of a high street fashion retailer now 'cause I'm embarrassed by the
Speaker:fact I don't talk to them anymore.
Speaker:I now shop from you guys and more you are making it harder for me to do it.
Speaker:It's I think that's the big driver, of course, behind that finding.
Speaker:How, how do you think people should balance this?
Speaker:So, I talk to a lot of retailers and they say, and, and it's completely
Speaker:understandable, the, the costs associated with returns have been skyrocketing,
Speaker:you know, as returns are growing.
Speaker:But absolutely the whole draw into kind of some of the ecommerce space in a way
Speaker:was this ability to return things free.
Speaker:What recommendations, so if we have somebody listening right now
Speaker:and they're like, well, great.
Speaker:How am I supposed to offset these costs, you know, how do you
Speaker:balance trying to make sure you offset costs and keep customers?
Speaker:I'd say a couple of things, and I would say one is philosophical
Speaker:and one is one is practical.
Speaker:So the philosophical would be, and, and I literally have had
Speaker:these conversations with retailers.
Speaker:The philosophical one is you've gotta, you've gotta think differently.
Speaker:So about returns and about real consumers.
Speaker:You know, if you just tighten returns policies and start charging,
Speaker:you are making it their problem.
Speaker:And it's not their problem.
Speaker:And, and unless you make the philosophical shift to a place where it's your problem
Speaker:you are probably gonna continue trying to get the consumer to solve it for you.
Speaker:And that's a weird, that's a weird business strategy, trying to get your
Speaker:customers to solve your profit or supply chain problems inadvertantly.
Speaker:Like try, almost like trying to do it by stealth, like slipping
Speaker:it under the, under the radar.
Speaker:Maybe they won't notice.
Speaker:Yeah, maybe they won't notice that I've just charged them $2.50 for
Speaker:a return or whatever, you know?
Speaker:And so, but, and, and I would say that the important thing about the philosophical
Speaker:shift is whilst returns were growing as a proportion of orders and it was becoming
Speaker:a bigger and bigger problem, I would say in the most part, retailers, brands
Speaker:treated them as loss.
Speaker:So the broad assumption was if something is being returned to
Speaker:me, I'm never gonna resell it.
Speaker:I'm gonna, it's gonna go to liquidation, it's gonna go down the secondary
Speaker:market, or I'm gonna landfill it.
Speaker:I think the philosophical shift now is you have to consider these items as assets.
Speaker:This is real life inventory, which can be resold for full value on Wednesday.
Speaker:Okay, that's another big one.
Speaker:So I'm gonna stop us again.
Speaker:Consider your returns, your items as assets, not as losses.
Speaker:We've got to take a shift.
Speaker:I'd love that, Tim.
Speaker:It's still a pair of Nike Airs.
Speaker:When they went out, they were Nike Airs.
Speaker:When they come back, they're still Nike Airs
Speaker:And so there is still a demand for those items.
Speaker:And so that's the philosophical.
Speaker:The practical therefore is if you use technology.
Speaker:And you know, modern technology particularly, you know, that works
Speaker:really fast, that allows you to make decisions real time on the edge.
Speaker:If you use technology to treat items, to treat returning items in exactly
Speaker:the same way you would a brand new outbound item i.e. you use technology
Speaker:to know where it is, what it is, when it's coming to, to, to forecast what
Speaker:I might need to do with it, to, to sell it, how, then to fulfill it, to ship it.
Speaker:Then actually, actually you've got a very high likelihood that you'll be
Speaker:able to resell that item, if not for absolutely full price, for the vast
Speaker:majority of its natural res of, of its previous, its prior prior sale price.
Speaker:And just, you know, we have a, a customer of ours that made a very like killer point
Speaker:to my CTO actually a couple of years ago.
Speaker:And he said, he said the funny thing about returns is he
Speaker:said, it's my worst supplier.
Speaker:Oh, it's 40% of my orders come back, come into my warehouse every day.
Speaker:And I dunno, when they come in, I dunno what they are, I dunno
Speaker:who's sending them and I know, but I know I've gotta sell 'em.
Speaker:So if you, if you use technology which is readily available to put your customers
Speaker:into a digital journey, collect all the information you need to understand
Speaker:the state and condition of that item.
Speaker:And move that item back into supply chain quickly, you know, and effectively,
Speaker:and move it to a place where there is demand as quickly as you possibly can.
Speaker:'Cause you know that now because technology tells retailers where
Speaker:there is demand and where they're likely to sell items or where
Speaker:they're likely to stock out.
Speaker:Use this inventory to manage those stockouts and to manage those peaks and
Speaker:troughs and demand and you'll start to see returns as assets rather than problem.
Speaker:And therefore, the idea of charging a consumer $5 to return it, which might
Speaker:actually make it slower for them to return, or they might, if they have
Speaker:to return it themselves, they might find the slowest, cheapest route.
Speaker:You end up getting back to the point that this is important inventory
Speaker:and the best idea, best thing we can do with it is get it back and
Speaker:resell it as quickly as possible.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:So what I'm hearing is, we gotta probably, in today's volatile market, we need
Speaker:to keep some of our return policies pretty flexible for our consumers.
Speaker:Where we need to switch is say, okay, we gotta stop just saying keep
Speaker:everything and, and do you know, we need to use, these returns as
Speaker:assets and actually find better ways.
Speaker:Great news is with all the data and technology and tools and AI
Speaker:and everything we have out there now, it is way more possible.
Speaker:It's possible.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We prove, we prove it all the time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We prove all the time that we can, we can, we can, you know, we
Speaker:can fulfill against finite data.
Speaker:Every minute, every hour, every day.
Speaker:It's possible.
Speaker:You just think about re returns as inventory and I, I think the
Speaker:philosophically that would just start to change the sales wealth.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It kind of made me think about the keeping it, because one of the stats I saw in
Speaker:there was that we are seeing a drop.
Speaker:So hopefully this means that people are, are starting to take your advice
Speaker:here, Tim, but it says the drop in 2024, 72% of keep it returns, that was the
Speaker:percent that had just, you know, keep your item, and it's gone down to 60%.
Speaker:That's a big drop in a year of the number of returns that we're just
Speaker:saying, you know, just keep it, whatever.
Speaker:So why do you think we're seeing this pullback?
Speaker:Is it because people are switching their viewpoint?
Speaker:What impact do you feel like having?
Speaker:Like consumers aren't, they're not idiots, you know?
Speaker:They know.
Speaker:Some of us are Tim, some of us are.
Speaker:If if re if a retailer's telling me I'll just keep it, it basically means
Speaker:it costs them more money to, to deal with it than it does, than it, than,
Speaker:than it's value to have it back.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:And so a, if you are the consumer, what, how does that
Speaker:make you feel about that item?
Speaker:I mean, I'm not gonna feel great about it, about that thing, you
Speaker:know, it's like, that's not gonna, not gonna make you feel great.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You know, on one hand it's like, oh, I've got a free vest, or
Speaker:a free t-shirt or something.
Speaker:But it doesn't feel great, does it?
Speaker:Because the, the retailer's giving it you free and the idea that I can
Speaker:gift it or, or I can, I can, I can, you know, sell it or whatever is
Speaker:pretty far fetched in most cases.
Speaker:I also feel though that, that consumers are way more kind of aware now,
Speaker:you have to treat this responsibly.
Speaker:You know, as, as you're the brand.
Speaker:You own the brand.
Speaker:If, if I send it back to you, I'm, I trust you to treat it responsibly.
Speaker:'Cause I don't wanna be responsible for piles of returns in the,
Speaker:at desert or landfill problems in the country that I live in.
Speaker:Or, you know, I, I trust you, I trust the brand to, to deal with this for me.
Speaker:If you just tell me to keep it, the chances are I'm just gonna bin it.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Or at some point it gets binned, because I might hold it in my bedroom
Speaker:for six years and then it gets right.
Speaker:There was a reason we were returning it to start.
Speaker:Reason we were returning it because we don't have any, right.
Speaker:We didn't want it.
Speaker:We don't have anything for.
Speaker:So so I think there's that, like consumers are there's, there's a
Speaker:bit of a kickback on it, and there has been like noise, like in
Speaker:the, in the sort of ether and the ecosystem, you know, various places,
Speaker:Reddit, all of those sort of channels, where you can see like consumers,
Speaker:consumer attitudes are changing.
Speaker:I think as well though there is, we've seen, and I would say this is definitely
Speaker:anecdotally rather than, rather than yet factually proven, but when we talk
Speaker:to consumers and we and and people in industry, there is a sense that you
Speaker:are being offered it less frequently.
Speaker:So therefore, you know, and that's come out in the stats.
Speaker:And so therefore I think there are some big businesses out there
Speaker:that had a proper look at keep it.
Speaker:Kind of, actually, it's not really doing what we thought it might.
Speaker:And there are some, you know, there are some strings attached here from a
Speaker:reputational perspective or a, you know, a loyalty and a supply chain perspective and
Speaker:a backing off slowly but surely, you know.
Speaker:And you know, there's a couple of brands where, you know, you start to
Speaker:hear anecdotal evidence that you just don't see it as much as you used to.
Speaker:I don't get offered that.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:What's interesting is that sort of sustainability piece, 'cause that
Speaker:came through in your survey as well.
Speaker:I mean, look at our stats.
Speaker:It says, so in 2024, 55% of consumers, so they were concerned about kind
Speaker:of that environmental impact.
Speaker:It's up to 65% in 2025, with 71% saying they won't complete a return if
Speaker:they think it's headed to a landfill.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so how, again, what, what kind of strategies do we have out there to
Speaker:balance that sustainability kind of issue?
Speaker:Yeah, so I mean there are a couple of things and I think this is an area
Speaker:where where transparency and visibility, in the eyes of consumers, could help
Speaker:change behavior in a way that also has a positive impact on bottom line.
Speaker:So
Speaker:you know, we, here in, I, I always sort of talk about a couple of
Speaker:examples historically that have cut, that have been executed in
Speaker:different ways, but that when the law changed, you had to wear seat belts.
Speaker:You didn't have to wear seat belts, then you have to wear seat belts.
Speaker:Yes, that came about through legislation, but it created a huge amount of
Speaker:behavior change and aptitude change.
Speaker:And to the extent that very quickly consumer, you know, kind of drivers, you
Speaker:know drivers who if you ever saw a driver that didn't have their seatbelt
Speaker:on, it became a bit of a, you know, there was a real kind of stigma attached to it.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:You know, but because there's sort of transparency and visibility around
Speaker:the, the risks of people not wearing seat belts and, and the societal
Speaker:responsibility around it, you know, carrier bags, you know, plastic carrier
Speaker:bags in supermarkets, you know, kind of restricting consumers' access to
Speaker:those for free has changed behavior forever and changed their approach and
Speaker:attitude towards towards carrier bags.
Speaker:Providing provenance information on groceries and, and you know, kind
Speaker:of fresh produce that consumers really get into has driven up adoption of
Speaker:local, you know, locally produced produce and, and that, that, but,
Speaker:and, but we don't, we don't provide consumers really with any visibility
Speaker:about what happens to their return.
Speaker:So I think if, if.
Speaker:We have all this data available.
Speaker:If, if we were to tell consumers when they go onto a returns page and they look
Speaker:at item X, if we were to tell them that 93% of these items get resold, 7% get
Speaker:gifted to here, you know, you might, you might start to see some of those items,
Speaker:some of those SKUs which are harder to resell, you know, low cost fast
Speaker:fashion, you know, throwaway type wear.
Speaker:I dunno, I think consumer might start to think differently
Speaker:about that sort of stuff.
Speaker:Like, instead of ordering five, maybe I'll order two.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I'll, I'll, I'll be, I'll feel, I'll feel more compelled to get it right first
Speaker:time, you know, or you know, or I'll think carefully about what it is I want.
Speaker:I'll do a bit more research or, you know, I'll become a more kind of informed buyer.
Speaker:I feel like that would have a, that would have a, that would have a big impact.
Speaker:You know, just provide visibility.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree completely.
Speaker:And I think that, you know, earlier you said consumers are not stupid, and yet
Speaker:sometimes we kind of try to hide things from them, like they might not notice.
Speaker:And so the fact that you said transparency, I, I think that even
Speaker:goes back to if you do decide, hey, I need to make a returns policy change.
Speaker:Be transparent about why.
Speaker:Don't just try to slip it in there.
Speaker:Just say, hey, we're seeing this issue.
Speaker:We're gonna need to offset some costs.
Speaker:We, consumers aren't stupid.
Speaker:I, I love that, Tim.
Speaker:That's really spot on.
Speaker:It's hard to land a justification that's around your bottom line.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Because the reality is, you know, ecommerce, you know, it's, it's tough.
Speaker:It's, it's tough to make money in ecomm, omnichannel retail.
Speaker:You know, there's not a load of businesses, you know, kind
Speaker:of getting made rich on it.
Speaker:But still these are big brands with big presence and I'm not sure many consumers
Speaker:care that much, that, you know, business X is not making huge margins or whatever.
Speaker:But, but actually a lot of these, a lot of these policy shifts and philosophical
Speaker:shifts, do have really positive, you know, if they're executed well, they will
Speaker:have really positive benefits to those things that consumers do care about.
Speaker:So why not find a way?
Speaker:Why not use the data you've got or maybe your supply chain software
Speaker:partner might have, you know, and and show that data to consumers and, and
Speaker:help them make the right choices.
Speaker:And, and rather than making it policy, make it, make it visibility and
Speaker:education and then see what happens.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Rather than make it policy, make it visibility and education.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:You never know.
Speaker:You never know.
Speaker:It might, you might get a, a much bigger impact and, and
Speaker:response than you expected.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Another thing that stood out to me in the survey was kind of a rise in the number
Speaker:of returns that are being rejected.
Speaker:36% of consumers say that they've actually had a return rejected.
Speaker:And for Gen Z that's like, almost half, 49% so that they
Speaker:have the returns rejected.
Speaker:What, what is, what's causing this?
Speaker:What's happening here?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so it's actually one of the things we are thinking about digging
Speaker:more into in next year's survey.
Speaker:Getting a bit deeper.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's interesting.
Speaker:You know, in talking to our customers, our clients, and you
Speaker:know, about what they're seeing.
Speaker:And actually, you know, spending time in.
Speaker:I was in Indianapolis a week before last in one of our, when a big returns handling
Speaker:center that's running our software and one of our, one of our important partners.
Speaker:You know, when you get in and you talk to people, you talk to those you
Speaker:know, people that are running returns they're on benches, you know, they're
Speaker:in, they're, they're, they're, they're physically handling these items.
Speaker:I would say there are a couple of things that really stand out.
Speaker:The first one is out of date, so two, so.
Speaker:And you know, historically when you you know it, when you wanted, when
Speaker:you returned something that were, you know, the returns policy was 30 days,
Speaker:but you sent it back to the retailer in 50 days 'cause they sent you a label.
Speaker:Like, what are they gonna do with it?
Speaker:They get it back in 50 days time.
Speaker:They've given you a label.
Speaker:They've used the label and like, well, I can't send it back to 'em
Speaker:because, because it's gonna cost me $6 to send it back to the consumer.
Speaker:Say, oh no, you couldn't bring it, you couldn't send this back so it was late.
Speaker:So you are stuck with it and you have to trigger the refund.
Speaker:Nowadays, such a high proportion of returns are generated
Speaker:through digital platforms.
Speaker:So you only get the label once you put your order number in
Speaker:and you go through the process.
Speaker:And of course, those platforms know whether you are in date
Speaker:or not, whether you are within policy or not within policy.
Speaker:And so you get rejected at the point at which you are starting the returns journey
Speaker:as a consumer because you are out of date.
Speaker:That is a, that is a bigger thing.
Speaker:There are more physical and digital controls on what you can return.
Speaker:The technology is helping and making growth of returns initiation
Speaker:platforms, you know, and their, their, their, their, their deployment
Speaker:across big and small brands.
Speaker:You know, you even think the small businesses, the growth of Shopify and,
Speaker:and the businesses that support Shopify in the return space, there's so many choices.
Speaker:You don't run a Shopify shop without a returns platform and therefore you
Speaker:have those digital controls and, and constraints that mean you can't return
Speaker:something which is out of policy.
Speaker:So I think there's that.
Speaker:Technology is drive promoting that number.
Speaker:But in Gen Z, I do think, you know, we are starting to see the impact of wardrobing.
Speaker:You know, consumers wearing items and then send, keeping the labels
Speaker:in, but sending them back, you know, after having them worn.
Speaker:And the, the technology and warehouse is impro is improving now.
Speaker:So that you can tell whether something's been worn or not worn.
Speaker:And actually, you know, in the modern world it is quite difficult.
Speaker:It's quite difficult to hide the fact you've worn an item.
Speaker:It really is.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's, you know, and it's, you know, it's not pleasant to think
Speaker:about, but the reality is there are people in warehouses and their
Speaker:profession is sussing this stuff out.
Speaker:And so, and and it's a very important role and you know, it's one of those
Speaker:things that will change behavior.
Speaker:And I believe that there's been a real rise in wardrobing pre,
Speaker:just pre and post pandemic.
Speaker:I think we're gonna see that tail off because, you know, the, these, these
Speaker:businesses now in fashion particularly are getting there, are getting good at it.
Speaker:So is it okay for to reject if it's out of policy, if they
Speaker:we're not seeing a consumer pushback against these rejections?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So a, does the consumer just accept it?
Speaker:I think it plays out in the, in the stats earlier, I, if I believe,
Speaker:if I'm a consumer and I've had a rejection, that might make me, change
Speaker:my loyalty to brand X and so and so.
Speaker:You know, I would say in all of those cases, I'm pretty sure the
Speaker:consumer is being rejected because they're trying to initiate return
Speaker:on day 35 rather than day 30.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:The reality though is even though it's day 35, retailer X may well
Speaker:still have demand for that item.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So if they use the technology effectively, you could satisfy the
Speaker:customer, you could delight them.
Speaker:You know, look Lori this is out of date, but we're gonna take it next time.
Speaker:30 days sort of thing.
Speaker:And you can still sell it the full price, 'cause you know you've got
Speaker:demand, unsatisfied demand, and that product is still selling at good rates.
Speaker:Just by using, by treating these things as assets and inventory.
Speaker:You'll do an inventory lookup.
Speaker:How, do I need this item?
Speaker:Where do I need it?
Speaker:Can I get it from Lori to the, through the location?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I can tick take the, take the return.
Speaker:The problem is there is a divorce between the returns initiation process
Speaker:and that that fulfillment decision, and what we are trying to do is
Speaker:bring those two things together.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I really, really like that idea of making it a, an experience
Speaker:that delights your consumers.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Why not delight the customer if you can.
Speaker:So smart, because then you're actually solidifying that
Speaker:loyalty a little bit more.
Speaker:And, you really needed, if you can treat it as an asset, then you can
Speaker:still make your money, but also have a great consumer experience.
Speaker:So that's perfect.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So Tim, we're headed into, you know, the big peak season.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We're coming up on the holidays.
Speaker:Everybody's gearing up for our Super Bowl of the year.
Speaker:What are some of the top things that you would suggest?
Speaker:Obviously returns peak season is a little bit right after all of the holidays.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Are there things people should be doing?
Speaker:Should they be tweaking their policy?
Speaker:Should they be getting clearer information?
Speaker:What, what suggestions do you have that people could do right now to make
Speaker:that returns experience way better for the upcoming holiday season?
Speaker:Yeah, so I, I definitely feel like this is not a time to tighten your policy.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Though your CFO may think so because.
Speaker:They'll always think so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They'll be worried about, you know, gifting and, and sales, you know, kind
Speaker:of those big sales events that now kind of anchor our industry, you know, both
Speaker:supply chain and, and sort of retail.
Speaker:But I think this is not a time to restrict your policies and make it
Speaker:harder for people to shop because ultimately we all survive and grow
Speaker:and thrive if consumers still feel compelled to shop at this time of year.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And so, and so, that's the first thing.
Speaker:I would say that, make that, that philosophical shift I've mentioned
Speaker:a few times as quickly as possible, i.e. at this time more than any other
Speaker:time of the year, you know, have real con concrete cast iron plans.
Speaker:For what you would do with returning SKUs under particular SKU groups.
Speaker:So it may well be that because of the nature of this time of year, you
Speaker:know, you might be looking to, to, you know, exit, you know out of season
Speaker:or, or, or, or closing season items.
Speaker:You might be looking to change your mix of products going into 2026, that's fine.
Speaker:But if you, if you can pre, pre designate the channel, the
Speaker:recommerce channel through which you are gonna get maximum value.
Speaker:Let's encourage consumers to shop.
Speaker:Let's give them, make it easy for them to return.
Speaker:But let's know now, let's understand now what we're gonna do with those
Speaker:SKUs, and let's put them through those channels as quickly as possible.
Speaker:Let's not let them pile up in a corner of a warehouse to be dealt with in March.
Speaker:You know, when, when we don't, when and, and in a really disorganized fashion,
Speaker:let's start to think, let's, let's create some rules and some logic now.
Speaker:And if, you know, if we have commerce channels like liquidators.
Speaker:You know reselling platforms, all those things.
Speaker:Let's get into our conversations with those resellers right now about what
Speaker:is valuable to them, what they think they would like in March, and let's,
Speaker:let's, let's orchestrate those SKUs and those items and those products
Speaker:in those directions straight away.
Speaker:Let's make it mechanistic.
Speaker:Let's, let's automate it and make sure that happens, because one of the, one
Speaker:of the, the, the biggest challenge of return season is actually spring.
Speaker:It's how you then get through all of those items effectively.
Speaker:And I would say, you know, you think about this year
Speaker:I'd learn everything you possibly can.
Speaker:Because it's probably too late to make any major operational organizational
Speaker:changes now that's gonna have a huge impact on return season 2026.
Speaker:You could learn an awful lot about return season 2027.
Speaker:And you can spend 26 putting it right.
Speaker:So trying to correct, collect as much data and information as you
Speaker:can about returns, who's returning, why they're returning in peak.
Speaker:You know, how much of, how much of these returns are driven by sales and, and
Speaker:gifting reverses just standard behavior.
Speaker:And then put that to work.
Speaker:Put that to work.
Speaker:We often, you know, this, the, the, the January, February is, you know,
Speaker:as you can imagine, is the time of year that spikes most demand in,
Speaker:in most, most leads in our world.
Speaker:I get more leads out period than any other time of year because, because
Speaker:our potential clients have been, you know, have been run ragged for eight
Speaker:weeks trying to work out what to do.
Speaker:But we often then sit down in March and there's no data.
Speaker:It's just a problem.
Speaker:There's a big pile of return to the corner.
Speaker:Can you help us?
Speaker:The more data you can collect now.
Speaker:Building up to Christmas, post-Christmas about what's happening,
Speaker:where it's coming from, why it's coming, you know, collect that.
Speaker:The more, the quicker we can get at it in spring and make sure that 2027 is,
Speaker:you know, the rest of 26 and 27 is best.
Speaker:That was really brilliant.
Speaker:Anytime that I'm looking and, and trying to get advice on how to manage any sort
Speaker:of problem, I always try to look at three areas, the people, the processes,
Speaker:and the technology, and you hit all of those, the people being first of all
Speaker:consumers, let's keep our, our policies where they want it, but also making that,
Speaker:that shift in our mind about what it is.
Speaker:Processes.
Speaker:Let's look at how are we turning this into a revenue generator or
Speaker:an asset rather than a liability.
Speaker:And then the technology data.
Speaker:Are you gathering the data?
Speaker:What tools do you need to make sure that you're able to do, you
Speaker:know, number two, the process.
Speaker:And so that was really, really good, Tim.
Speaker:I appreciate that.
Speaker:Everyone out there who's listening.
Speaker:Really great advice.
Speaker:Understand consumers are not in a place for 2025 where they are really,
Speaker:you know, they're already tight.
Speaker:I mean, what, honestly, that's what the data is showing is that they're a little
Speaker:bit nervous about spending right now.
Speaker:Now is the time to be tightening your, your policies and you've
Speaker:got to, all the dimes also matter to the companies, to you too.
Speaker:So make sure you're using those as assets.
Speaker:Great, great advice there, Tim.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:Okay, so we're about out of time, but if you were gonna put on your magic
Speaker:hat that can predict the future, any trends you see Tim going into 2026
Speaker:that we can keep an eye out for?
Speaker:Yeah, so I think, you know, we've seen real kind of growth and momentum in
Speaker:recommerce, but I would say that that public now overgrowth in reselling.
Speaker:So vintage, Depop, businesses like that.
Speaker:You know, Europe, you know this, it has become a real big thing, you
Speaker:know, consumers reselling items.
Speaker:So, you know, maybe if I'm, if I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna return it,
Speaker:I'm gonna try and resell it and, and that's gonna be my channel of value.
Speaker:And I think that will continue to grow.
Speaker:But I would say the big trend now in business is is like really
Speaker:organized recommerce channels at scale.
Speaker:So I think the, the day of the liquidator, you know, being, being maybe
Speaker:a secondary market cents in the dollar type trader, I think that's changing.
Speaker:I think liquidators, resellers are gonna become a big part of, of
Speaker:solving retail's problems in the future through really well, well
Speaker:well diagnosed well researched, you know, channels for future value for these items.
Speaker:Whether they're geographic channels or, you know, or, or, or
Speaker:different services and industries.
Speaker:And I think we will see real sort of growth for some of those businesses
Speaker:like B-Stock and ThreadUp and those sort of businesses that, that offer
Speaker:really good, effective secondary lives to previously sold stock.
Speaker:And I think we as a supply chain are gonna have to think about how we
Speaker:can make it easy for them to grow.
Speaker:Rather than being niche, I think they're gonna have to, they're
Speaker:gonna have to play a bigger role.
Speaker:Be an actual part of a, a full, full fledged member of the supply chain.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well, I'll have to have you come back in a year or so and, and we'll see
Speaker:how all these predictions lined up.
Speaker:Okay, Tim one thing I don't like is when people listen to a
Speaker:podcast or something like this and then it's like, oh, good ideas.
Speaker:And then go about their life.
Speaker:Let's give them one task.
Speaker:What is something that you want them to do this week?
Speaker:You know, as an action item, as if we just had a, an action item meeting.
Speaker:What, what are you gonna give 'em to do?
Speaker:And I'll give 'em something too.
Speaker:Do you know what I would do?
Speaker:I would, I would spend 15 minutes with a blank sheet of paper
Speaker:and I would think about in my organization, who touches returns?
Speaker:Who do, who does it matter to?
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Because I think you would come up with CFO store ops, and I'm
Speaker:thinking retail here, particularly.
Speaker:Store ops, warehouse management, transport management, procurement, merchandising.
Speaker:What that then gives you is your team, because you can't solve this alone.
Speaker:And so and so, if you are interested in this space or you've been
Speaker:given a task, that's why you are watching this podcast 'cause you've
Speaker:seen it's might be about returns.
Speaker:I'd spend 10, 15 minutes thinking about who's the team and then how
Speaker:do I gather that team to think about this more holistically rather than it
Speaker:being a customer experience thing or a supply chain thing or a warehouse thing.
Speaker:Be that person in your organization that, that turns it into a brand value thing.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:So put it on your calendar, people, schedule that time, 15 minutes right now.
Speaker:You can find it.
Speaker:Create a task force that is gonna be your returns task force.
Speaker:Fantastic advice.
Speaker:I'm not even gonna follow that up.
Speaker:That was just perfect.
Speaker:So thank you, again, Tim, for being here.
Speaker:This was really, really fun.
Speaker:No, I really appreciate it.
Speaker:It's been great.
Speaker:And hope we will meet again one day.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Yes, for sure.
Speaker:And we'll see you all next time.
Speaker:Bye-Bye.
