Jef Before onefjef – A 25th Episode Special, Hosted by Chris Casey

Speaker: 00:00:01

Okay Jef, let's try that Yankee Doodle again, okay?

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This is episode 25 of onefjef.

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25 is the hinge number, the threshold between who you were and who you're becoming.

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It's the square of five which numerology treats as chaos, freedom, restlessness,

curiosity.

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Squaring something means stabilizing it, turning motion into structure.

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So 25 is freedom formalized, the moment where the chaos of youth crystallizes into

something coherent.

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Hello, friends, Romans, countrymen.

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I appreciate you lending me your ears over these past 25 episodes or however many you've

listened to at this point.

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25 episodes feels like a milestone of sorts.

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and I'm one who appreciates marking milestones in one way or another.

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So I'm marking this one by turning the tables in a manner of speaking.

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Chris Casey is my guest host for this episode, who you might remember from episode two and

as the big winner of the email contest and who is also a dear friend.

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And the guest for this episode is me.

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Jef Taylor is a Columbus-based filmmaker and podcaster who spent a lot of years drifting

between projects, places, and phases of himself.

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He edits for a living, travels when he can, and tries, sometimes clumsily, to turn

whatever he's going through into something honest.

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Onefjef is basically his attempt to make sense of the mess.

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Connection, grief, curiosity, the ways people change and don't.

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He's in a transition phase sorting out what comes next.

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without pretending he has it figured out.

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I imagine I met myself when I woke up confused in my mother's womb.

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I've known myself pretty consistently since then, at some points more than others.

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Lately pretty well though, I think.

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And recording this episode helped me know myself better, so hopefully it will do the same

for you.

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And if you do have any follow-up questions after listening, feel free to send them to

onefjefpod@gmail.com.

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The traditional gift for a 25th anniversary is silver, but I'd rather have you subscribe

to my Patreon page, which is much less expensive.

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For as little as $5 a month, you can get access to all the bonus content, including some

personal photos I'll be adding to enhance your experience of this episode.

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No nudes, I promise.

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Patreon.com.onefjef.

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And if you're already a subscriber, you should feel as good about yourself as I do about

you.

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and I feel great about you.

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Patreon.com/onefjef.

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I would normally say something here philosophical about the nature of this episode or the

nature of my life at this moment, but this entire episode is basically me talking, so

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let's just get right to it.

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Thank you for listening.

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Thank you for being here.

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Here's me talking to Chris Casey about me.

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To toast toast toasting Okay, host needs to sorry sorry on here You Ladies and gentlemen,

welcome to onefjef.

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I'm 1c Chris and I am so thrilled to be here To welcome a person that you have come to

love

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Appreciate and maybe even give a little money to get that patreon He's the host of this

very podcast which is celebrating today.

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It's 25th episode And then you insert little children cheering sound effect right there

No, I'm not talking about Bing Bong.

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I'm talking about Jef

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been fired by the way I haven't actually been let go

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Oh, well, that's an awkward way to discuss.

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know, but my audience is going to have to f*** with the other and I just don't to episode

to announce that I

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too bad about it because I feel like the audience has become a.

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He was just toxic, just a toxic person.

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And listen, there's ongoing litigation, so we really can't get into it.

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But suffice it to say, we wish, we wish him well.

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Okay.

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Jef Taylor, everybody.

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I'm oddly nervous to be interviewed on my own podcast, I'll be honest.

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I get that.

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Right.

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So let's start from the beginning then.

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You grew up in Cleveland, Ohio.

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I was in Cleveland at Fairview Jailhouse in 1973.

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And you already had a sister, you have an older sister there.

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Yeah, she's three years older.

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She was born in 1976 here this weekend as well.

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My sister Allison.

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What's the occasion?

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Why are you guys there?

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Clambake.

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It's a Cleveland actually.

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It's strange phenomenon.

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Actually, I've been looking into it because usually usually clambakes are in New England,

know.

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It's the ocean and there's clams there.

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There's no clams in Lake Erie.

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But how it ended up coming here was during the 1800s.

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Apparently Cleveland was a pretty booming town at the time and uh the trains were running

right through Cleveland.

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So the trains would come to bring New Englanders to Cleveland and I guess they decided to

just start doing clambakes here.

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Is it like around this time of year that

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Yeah.

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It's an October thing, yeah.

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interesting.

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Yeah, I have memories of like when I was a kid, like standing in like the garage and got

this like the steaming pot of clams and I don't like clams though.

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well, so you grew up in Cleveland in basically last ladies.

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A suburb, is that a suburb?

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Yeah, OK.

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Yeah, it's the suburb of suburbs.

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I'm picturing a very kind of like cul-de-sac kind of like you can go out and play in the

neighborhood with the kids ride bikes kind of thing.

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Is that the vibe we're talking about?

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It's like you're sitting here.

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There's a cul-de-sac like right around the corner.

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It's like I can see it from the window.

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And yeah, we used to play.

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was kids my age.

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ah We had the day.

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So yeah, we'd play baseball on the cul-de-sac.

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We'd ride bikes all over the neighborhood.

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We'd play Nintendo in the basements of.

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Yeah, it was looking back.

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It was pretty, pretty ideal.

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actually.

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What was your kind of personality identity in your group of friends in that like

elementary school time period?

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mean it's difficult to say because a lot Earlier like elementary school memories are

pretty hazy like I think that I became very socially awkward Maybe I was always socially

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awkward, but I I think I definitely became very socially awkward in like sixth fifth or

sixth grade sure and Then middle school.

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I was very much awkward Started to lose the awkwardness as I got a little bit older

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like later in high school, but still in college, I struggled socially.

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I had trouble understanding social dynamics.

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Was there like a moment or a year or a general time when you when you first started to

have more self conscious thoughts?

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You know, like thinking about how you were being perceived or, you know, things like that,

as opposed to just when you're a little kid, I feel like you're just like, you're doing

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it, you know.

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I would say middle school when the kids start to make fun of you for the way you look.

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So probably about then, yeah.

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I mean, because I was super, super skinny and like just an uber nerd and I was in like,

you know, children's theater productions and I'd be in the paper doing dressed up in like

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fairy tale characters, which didn't do a lot for your popularity in middle school.

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So yeah, I didn't really have much of a social life outside of my theater friends.

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uh

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in middle school, which I did have, know, the theater really was a savior.

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It's the big, if we were ever to talk about like a, if it was discovering theater and

discovering that community that was people that were kind of like me, that were weird and

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kind of outcasts and you know, that kind of thing and artistic.

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Yeah, it changed my life.

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My dad is where I get pretty much all of uh my artistic and funny and dry humor side.

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I think, and even this, like the podcasting ability, he would have been great on a

podcast.

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But you know, also, you know, not around a lot.

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It'd work a lot.

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He'd work late, whatever it was.

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And also was very kind of hard on me.

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And I don't think really understood me.

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I think he wanted me to be a sports person.

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you know, he wanted a son who was good at athletic and all that.

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I don't think the theater thing, like he embraced it eventually, I think, but I do think

that that was a thing that was like,

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you know, it might have been hard for him to see his son dress up in a fairy tale costumes

and makeup and so on.

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What made him in your view kind of value more traditional masculine stuff or was that just

like a society thing?

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I think it was more of a society thing.

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I think that my dad was probably kind of a awkward kind of nerdy guy in, you know, or

whatever as well.

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That'd be my guess, but I don't entirely know because we never actually talked about it,

which, you know, I wish we had, but me and my father never really saw eye eye.

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well, you

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Yeah, that would make sense in a certain way because I think sometimes when people have

kids, they it starts to trigger their unresolved childhood trauma that they have.

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They've kind of just turned away from because they see it reflected through the eyes of

their kids.

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And that can be something that you can either kind of rise to the occasion of or uh can

cause you to be a little more resistant avoid.

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And his father died quite young as well, so I don't think he had much of a father figure,

to be honest.

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So I don't know that he necessarily knew how to be a father, in a sense, because he had no

role model in that way.

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uh You know?

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Not to psychoanalyze my father, but I do think that that's a big part of it, because his

father died, I forget how old he was, but he was young.

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I am closer to my mom than I ever was with my father.

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Of course, because she was around a lot more and she was the nurturer.

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So I was going to ask, were your parents, did either of them or both have that nurturing

quality?

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Were there a lot of hugs?

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Were there a lot of...

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um Yeah, I mean, my mom

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affectionate.

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My father's hugs always the kind that you pat on the back because you're uncomfortable.

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So yeah, there's definitely that and that's something

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that I've always

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been trying to kind of outgrow it or correct it, you know.

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It's also a Midwestern thing in the sense that we don't talk about our problems.

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It's all very surfacey.

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Yeah, I feel like you've done a decent job of if not resisting the calcification of your

sensitivity.

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You've always been a pretty sensitive person, but watching back to your films and stuff, I

feel like you've actually become more sensitive in the last like 15 years since I've known

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you than you were when you were younger.

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Does that feel right?

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Yeah, that's probably true.

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Or maybe just like more in tune.

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I've always been incredibly sensitive.

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Like I've always kind of been.

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But it's always just manifested in different ways.

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And I think that I think I've learned to kind of own embrace it as opposed to not really

knowing what to do with this raw nerve.

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and become a little more skillful in regulating.

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uh

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Yeah, to a degree, you know, it's still a struggle, like, you know, I mean, putting it

into my art, putting it into this podcast really, I mean, these things have helped me

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immensely because I mean, I artists by nature are generally just incredibly sensitive

people to the nuances of emotion and just the world in general.

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And I think that's what in a way makes me a good filmmaker was because of my sense of my

emotional sensitivity.

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Do you remember when you saw any kind of art and started to get the idea that that's

something you'd want to pursue?

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My sister was a Indian princess.

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I don't know if you had those when you were a kid.

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It was like the female version of the boy, the Cub Scouts basically.

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And my mom was like the den leader or whatever, whatever they called it.

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So I had to go with them because I was like, you know, home for the summer or whatever.

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they, wherever they had to go, whatever the outings was, we had to go with them.

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And so one of the outings was to the Speck Center Theater.

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That was the children's theater that I ended up getting involved with.

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was, the show was Punch and Judy.

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and

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I just remember being wrapped by this thing.

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was like, and I kept begging my parents afterwards to let me go to the school because I

just saw something in it.

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I was like, this is something that I'm into.

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And it took a while because the theater was a drive, you know, it was like a 20 minute

drive from the house and after school and all that and cost money and all that.

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But eventually they relented and forever grateful.

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That was third grade, I think, or second grade.

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They had these classes every Saturday.

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It was great.

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It was super fun.

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And then they would have plays two or three times a year.

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And that was my social group.

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It was like, you the first woman I dated was from Bexley.

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I had my first kiss at the Bexley.

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Yeah.

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Do you have a favorite production from your younger years of?

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dear.

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I would say the one has to be the Princess and the Magic P I think was one of my very last

shows.

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It might have been my last.

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Remember I was sitting in the auditorium watching the auditions.

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We were waiting to audition for the thing and they were auditioning the part of the witch.

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know there's a woman.

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None of the women of the girls at the time could do a good laugh.

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The director kept going like no like this and so from the back of the auditorium I was

just like and she's like yes and so she had me audition.

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and then cast me.

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So I played this like weird kind of cross-dressing.

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I mean, I don't think it was implicitly cross-dressing, but I was cross-dressing.

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This like over-the-top witch costume and yeah, you know, lots of makeup and lipstick and

long fingernails and all.

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It was pretty cool.

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And so this theater was not part of your school.

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It was a separate program.

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So you didn't really have those kids to hang out with at school.

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There were a few that went there from the school, not very many.

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So yeah, mostly it was like a separate thing.

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Like after school, when we'd have like a play going on, I'd leave school and then go

straight to like rehearsal for like two or three hours, two or three times a week.

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And then every Saturday we had the thing.

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So it was a lot of time with this other group of people.

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Some of the people I met in Beck Center are still dear friends.

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which is nice.

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religious?

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there any religion for your family?

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First, sure, I was raised Catholic, but I never liked it or was into it.

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Yeah, I had to go to church and I didn't like going to church.

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found it very boring.

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I was confirmed.

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I had to do First Communion and all that.

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Do you a dev to your first?

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I had to do that, I've done that,

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ah I don't remember.

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ah

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It's all vague memories.

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I remember Father Callahan, had to go into the booth and you, you know, you had to tell

you what you did, I don't you swore or something, and then they give you like a ten- a

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penance.

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So have to go out and pray the Hail Mary ten times or something like that.

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And then one time when I was able to drive, my parents would let me drive to church.

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So oftentimes I would ditch, I would not go to church.

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I would just go to the record store, which is kind of my second home.

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and

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It worked out fine until one time my sister needed the car.

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My mom or dad needed the car to drive her back to college.

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forget the whole story, but they went to the parking lot at the church and they couldn't

find the car.

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And then they found me at the record store and I got grounded and had to walk.

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Wait, your parents insisted you go to church, but they didn't go?

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They went at a different time.

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mom, my dad didn't go to church.

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My mom went to church.

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My dad was not a religious man.

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My mom was raised Catholic, so that was what she did.

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interesting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, we had the best record store in the Cleveland area here in Westlake called My

Generation for many years.

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And it was, it used to be right down the street so I could like bike there, but it moved a

little bit further away.

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Now it's of course closed because, know, but yeah, it was awesome.

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I would spend like hours there just going through the CDs and the tapes and all that kind

of thing.

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Your use of music is one of my favorite aspects of you as a filmmaker.

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uh Your kind of ear for music and how you put it together.

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So I'm curious where that comes from.

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Yeah, it definitely comes from being, I mean, was really into music when I was, I've

always been in music.

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I used to sit and listen to the radio and like with my tape deck and like request a song

that I wanted to hear so I could just have it on tape and listen to it over and over

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again.

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Cause like back then that was the only way that you could really, unless you went out and

bought the whole album, which I couldn't afford.

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So.

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Yeah.

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Where did you go to college?

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Because I know you went to graduate school in Savannah, but I didn't actually know where

you went.

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I went to Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, was there for six years.

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I am not a doctor, but I wish I had been a better student and taken more advantage of all

the opportunities that college presents you with as a young person that you don't get as

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an older person.

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But I, you know, I, I, um, I partied quite a bit.

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Did you, dorms there?

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Did he do a fraternity or what was college life like?

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I dormed for the first couple years, I think first two years, and then you were allowed to

live off campus.

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So then I lived off campus.

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Bunch of different places.

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Well, one place was this hippie house.

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I was friends with lot of hippies.

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It was kind of a hippie school, really.

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And

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I with these three women in this house that was falling apart and there were bees that

lived in my bedroom and I got stung in the middle of the night because there was like a

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bee's nest in the roof of my bedroom.

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was fun.

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Regular?

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I think that only happened the one time.

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Yeah, if it happened regularly, I probably wouldn't have said something.

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And then at one point I lived in...

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It was tricky because I was...

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struggling socially then.

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Like I had friends in college, but I was still like not entirely...

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I always had just, I don't know how to put it, but I was always very, I was always just

awkward socially and never, it was always a self-esteem thing I think.

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I think that's really probably the heart of it is the self-esteem thing is I never had

self-esteem and I was always very neurotic.

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So I was always questioning people's true friendship toward me and so forth, not

outwardly, but in my head, you know?

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I forget what the question was, but that was.

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the end.

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Was there like an undergrad girlfriend for this period?

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: 00:19:17

I had a girlfriend in college, Derissa Phipps, that was towards my, I think, by fifth

year.

292

: 00:19:22

Yeah, I met Derissa.

293

: 00:19:24

We were both ushering at a Rusted Root concert.

294

: 00:19:28

Yeah, she was a very, she was a very cool chick.

295

: 00:19:31

and uh...

296

: 00:19:33

And yeah, we dated for, I don't know, six, seven, eight months.

297

: 00:19:35

forget the whole story.

298

: 00:19:37

So college, anything remarkable about your undergrad time that was formative for you?

299

: 00:19:44

You didn't start thinking about filmmaking at this point yet, I assume.

300

: 00:19:48

No, no, not really.

301

: 00:19:50

uh

302

: 00:19:51

English major?

303

: 00:19:52

What was your?

304

: 00:19:53

English Lit major and that was just because you could do anything with an English degree

is what they said back then because I have always been a dabbler and I didn't pick any

305

: 00:20:01

particular field.

306

: 00:20:02

I thought I'd get stuck in that so I just thought I'll just go general.

307

: 00:20:06

But yeah, other college things.

308

: 00:20:07

No, I mean I got arrested one time for underage drinking.

309

: 00:20:10

That was the most exciting thing that happened.

310

: 00:20:14

I had to go to court, but I don't think I mean yeah, I had to pay a fine or something.

311

: 00:20:19

Go to like.

312

: 00:20:20

Actually, no, there were two occasions.

313

: 00:20:21

One time they caught us with like a keg in our door.

314

: 00:20:25

and uh...

315

: 00:20:26

We all got in trouble and had to go talk to like the head of the dorm, whatever that

person's name was.

316

: 00:20:31

And he gave me this ridiculous talk and he was like, now why do you drink?

317

: 00:20:35

And I was like, well, know, cause it's fun.

318

: 00:20:37

It's like a social lubricant, you know?

319

: 00:20:39

And he's like, you know what nobody ever says to me?

320

: 00:20:41

Because they're thirsty.

321

: 00:20:43

And he said it as if it was some profound like statement.

322

: 00:20:46

And it's like, well, no, of course they don't say, cause they're thirsty.

323

: 00:20:49

Cause people are drinking alcohol.

324

: 00:20:50

they're to get drunk, idiot.

325

: 00:20:53

Thanks.

326

: 00:20:53

you

327

: 00:20:54

that, I was going, it's so stupid.

328

: 00:20:56

Is that supposed to make you like sad for humanity that people are drinking when they're

not thirsty?

329

: 00:21:00

don't know what the point of that was.

330

: 00:21:03

Really do anything to affect my behavior.

331

: 00:21:07

Did you drink before college or?

332

: 00:21:12

You were a good kid.

333

: 00:21:13

Yeah, I I was a good kid in high school I mean I was uh I hung out with some like burnouts

a little bit because I was just kind of like the person who kind of Floated between and

334

: 00:21:22

high school could float between groups a little bit.

335

: 00:21:25

I Was very I was a very good boy in high school if only because I wasn't invited to the

cool parties possibly, you know

336

: 00:21:31

That was probably my situation as well in retrospect.

337

: 00:21:36

Any encounters with uh mind-altering substances of any sort in high school or college?

338

: 00:21:43

College for sure, that's where I got introduced to marijuana, your psychedelics.

339

: 00:21:47

ah

340

: 00:21:50

any profound uh life changing discoveries on either of those.

341

: 00:21:55

uh

342

: 00:21:55

I mean...

343

: 00:21:55

Back then it was mostly like, let's take some mushrooms and have like, did one.

344

: 00:22:00

think one of the first times I took them, it was with the group of people who lived in my

like dorm.

345

: 00:22:05

We all took mushrooms and went up to, there was a place in Athens called Bong Hill.

346

: 00:22:09

There was this hill, you'd have to outside of campus, have to climb up it and what they

can see the whole campus from up there.

347

: 00:22:14

It was amazing.

348

: 00:22:15

And we all went up there.

349

: 00:22:16

We were the only ones up there.

350

: 00:22:17

And it was like, we ended up getting into almost like we were like, at one point we all

had our arms around each other and we're doing like a tribal dance.

351

: 00:22:25

It was was something else.

352

: 00:22:26

It was and these were like some of these were jocks and you know, yada yada yada.

353

: 00:22:29

So yeah, that was a pretty profound experience just in the sense that, you know, I was

like, wow, you take these mushrooms and suddenly like, you know, you're connecting with

354

: 00:22:38

people in a way that you've never really connected with them or ever thought you would

connect with them before, you know.

355

: 00:22:43

And in these, in this like college period, did you have any visions for what you wanted to

do with your life at any point?

356

: 00:22:51

Yeah, no, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life.

357

: 00:22:53

That was probably why, I mean, at least part of the reason why I didn't want to leave

college, right?

358

: 00:22:57

Because I was like, I have no idea what I want to do with my life.

359

: 00:23:01

And

360

: 00:23:03

So even when I left college, I moved to London, work abroad program.

361

: 00:23:10

Lived there for about, I think, six, seven, Or not Airbnb, just a B &B.

362

: 00:23:18

uh There was called the George Hotel and was run by this Turkish woman named Binur Perak,

who was still on Instagram, strange enough, but she was a difficult woman.

363

: 00:23:30

You lived in the B &B?

364

: 00:23:32

Yeah, yeah, I lived and worked behind the desk at the BNBA.

365

: 00:23:35

I had a little room in the basement.

366

: 00:23:37

Yeah, I lived there.

367

: 00:23:38

It was like a whole family.

368

: 00:23:39

It was kind of cool actually because there were like some of the servers and stuff.

369

: 00:23:45

were all from different countries, Poland, France.

370

: 00:23:49

think there was one from France.

371

: 00:23:50

And so that was a super interesting part of that experience was like, because some of them

were super cool.

372

: 00:23:56

And yeah, and we would hang out sometimes.

373

: 00:23:58

Yeah, it was like a little family at times.

374

: 00:24:00

It was kind of an interesting experience.

375

: 00:24:02

That is interesting.

376

: 00:24:03

Was there any memories from that time that stick out, any stories from them?

377

: 00:24:09

I mean, one time before I got the job, because there was a good several weeks before I

actually landed a job.

378

: 00:24:16

So I was kind of broke.

379

: 00:24:19

At one point, I was just wandering around central London by the main train station there.

380

: 00:24:25

I forget the name of

381

: 00:24:26

but um

382

: 00:24:28

I ended up hanging out with these homeless people smoking hash and we were having a good

time.

383

: 00:24:34

And then like the, the, this truck come the truck, it gives the homeless people free food

and they're like, dude, do you want some food?

384

: 00:24:43

I'm like, what do mean?

385

: 00:24:44

You, I'm like, know, and they're like, it's free.

386

: 00:24:46

give it, give it.

387

: 00:24:47

I didn't take any food because I wasn't homeless, but ah I was struck by that.

388

: 00:24:50

Cause I was like, I've never heard of that happening in America.

389

: 00:24:53

Like a government sponsored food delivery to homeless people.

390

: 00:24:56

They sent you out to London without a job in this program.

391

: 00:25:01

don't remember the logistics of the thing.

392

: 00:25:02

I mean, they you would go and get an orientation in London and then they would give you

leads and so forth and on and on and

393

: 00:25:08

Where do you stay though when you're just...

394

: 00:25:10

Yeah, I was staying in hostels for a few weeks, yeah.

395

: 00:25:14

Yeah.

396

: 00:25:17

Alright, so you partied with some homeless people.

397

: 00:25:19

Is this the trip where you got arrested in the bookstore too?

398

: 00:25:22

It is.

399

: 00:25:23

I was hesitant to bring that up, but yeah, that's where I got uh arrested for, because I

was broke and I needed something to read and that's the God's on the truth.

400

: 00:25:33

Yeah, I stole a copy of The Fountainhead, which is an idiotic thing because it's a very

thick book and I was skinnier than I am now.

401

: 00:25:40

And like I shoved it in my pants and it's clear, like it's idiotic.

402

: 00:25:42

I mean, what was I thinking?

403

: 00:25:44

And I walked out of the store and this security guard comes out and he's like, come back

into the store, blah, blah.

404

: 00:25:48

And we were joking around in the back because he was just thought it was charming that I

was actually gonna read the book.

405

: 00:25:52

Cause usually it was like drug addicts who would come in and steal books and then sell

them for drugs.

406

: 00:25:57

And so we were joking around.

407

: 00:25:58

He was talking about how he had gotten in a lot of trouble and that's how he got this job.

408

: 00:26:02

Cause he had been a thief or whatever.

409

: 00:26:04

And then I ended up getting a ride and a British police and it was the Bobby car on the

wrong side of the street.

410

: 00:26:09

Police officers were asking me all about America and American baseball and stuff.

411

: 00:26:13

It was all a very friendly encounter.

412

: 00:26:15

I spent about two hours in a jail cell and they gave me a newspaper and stuff.

413

: 00:26:21

And then I had to appear before like, I don't know, the magistrate or something, you the

guys were in the wig and everything.

414

: 00:26:27

And he sits down with me and he goes, well, well, well, it looks like we got ourselves a

international book thief on our hands.

415

: 00:26:34

Peace.

416

: 00:26:35

Like it was all kind of ridiculous and yeah, he let me go.

417

: 00:26:38

He had to go through all the stuff in my bag, but there was nothing.

418

: 00:26:41

No, to be uh a petty thief in London is a very kind of uh auspicious, know, it's like very

Charles Dickens.

419

: 00:26:51

Yeah, yeah, that was what I was going for Chris is the Kenzie and It didn't feel the

Kenzie and at the time but I read the whole book and I still have the copy I ended up

420

: 00:26:59

having to pay for the book.

421

: 00:27:00

I saw just charged

422

: 00:27:02

Understand.

423

: 00:27:03

okay, so we're broke except for a credit card.

424

: 00:27:06

Sure,

425

: 00:27:06

You know, yeah.

426

: 00:27:08

All right, well, that's cool.

427

: 00:27:08

So then you're done with London, you come back to the US.

428

: 00:27:11

When does Korea happen?

429

: 00:27:15

I can make to the US.

430

: 00:27:16

and um

431

: 00:27:18

Yeah, I got a job at Kinko's near my parents' house.

432

: 00:27:21

Still didn't really know what I wanted to do.

433

: 00:27:23

Still pretty aimless.

434

: 00:27:24

and uh...

435

: 00:27:26

Living at home.

436

: 00:27:27

Living at home for that period, ah Sometimes taking the bus to Kinko's.

437

: 00:27:32

It was actually fun working at Kinko's.

438

: 00:27:34

I was a color copy expert and I had to wear the apron and everything.

439

: 00:27:37

Original Kinkos

440

: 00:27:39

Yeah, I'd often work late at night.

441

: 00:27:44

Yeah, and actually tangent, but like I went back there about, it must have been five or 10

years ago to get some like family pictures printed before the holidays.

442

: 00:27:52

Like one of the guys that I worked with was still working there.

443

: 00:27:57

mean, yeah, it made me a little sad.

444

: 00:28:01

Yeah, it's about 10 years ago.

445

: 00:28:02

Yeah, this was years later.

446

: 00:28:03

Yeah.

447

: 00:28:04

Did you recon- did he recognize you?

448

: 00:28:06

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

449

: 00:28:08

We talked for a bit.

450

: 00:28:09

It was awkward because it was like, it felt awkward to me because he's still working

there, you know?

451

: 00:28:17

I don't know how awkward it should have felt for him.

452

: 00:28:18

But yeah, anyway, I worked at Kinko's and made a lot of calendars for people.

453

: 00:28:23

I worked late a lot, I worked at night, know, till midnight or whenever we closed.

454

: 00:28:27

I think maybe we might've been open 24 hours actually.

455

: 00:28:29

Yeah, I think some of the original Kinkos

456

: 00:28:31

And then you got all the randos coming in, you know, we'd had a guy come in who would

bring in this male stripper who would come in and he would just give us to print out his

457

: 00:28:39

flyers.

458

: 00:28:40

He would just give us these like crumpled up singles.

459

: 00:28:43

It was just like, dude, can't you at least try to make it look like they weren't like

stuck in your underwear at some point?

460

: 00:28:51

But yeah, printed all sorts of free calendars and made a lot of t-shirts there.

461

: 00:28:56

We were bored.

462

: 00:28:58

And then when does the idea of doing uh work abroad in Korea start to enter your mind?

463

: 00:29:04

Well, I got involved in Second City Cleveland.

464

: 00:29:07

That's a big part of the story.

465

: 00:29:09

Okay, so that's happening first.

466

: 00:29:11

Well, I quit the job at Kinko's after about eight months.

467

: 00:29:15

And then...

468

: 00:29:17

Found a job, I worked at tables for a while at Hula Hands, I was not great at that, didn't

care for it.

469

: 00:29:22

And then I got a job working at a law publishing firm.

470

: 00:29:26

And hated that, I was editing law books, which is as bad as it sounds, truly.

471

: 00:29:31

But it was a real job, which made my parents happy, it was like a legit corporate, blah,

blah.

472

: 00:29:36

During that period was when Second City Cleveland was coming, and I'd always known about

Second City, because I'd always loved improv stuff.

473

: 00:29:43

So I got involved with them and was taking the classes and met a lot of people through

there.

474

: 00:29:48

And yeah, I was involved in that for the entire, however long, I think it was about a

three or four year period that it lasted.

475

: 00:29:54

But those were good times.

476

: 00:29:56

Those were like highlights of that period of my life was like the second city stuff was

fun.

477

: 00:30:00

So you're hanging around with funny people all the time.

478

: 00:30:02

I wasn't on the main stage, but my girlfriend ended up getting on the main stage, which

was tricky.

479

: 00:30:07

yeah, I kind of like was the house manager.

480

: 00:30:09

So I kind of, not the house manager, but I kind of like.

481

: 00:30:12

was in charge of where everybody was sitting and everything.

482

: 00:30:14

It wasn't a very important job, but I just wanted to be there.

483

: 00:30:17

And yeah, there was a lot of partying that would go on afterwards, and that was the fun

part.

484

: 00:30:21

I met Fred Willard, Fred Willard and Tina Fey came to the opening of the theater.

485

: 00:30:25

cool.

486

: 00:30:26

Oh, and was Second City, I guess at that point it was the, there was the generation of

Second City to SNL pipeline had happened, right?

487

: 00:30:37

For sure.

488

: 00:30:37

So was in its real heyday at that time.

489

: 00:30:39

you

490

: 00:30:40

Yeah, and they were planning to expand to a lot of places.

491

: 00:30:43

Is this early 2000s?

492

: 00:30:45

We're talking.

493

: 00:30:46

Yeah, some about there.

494

: 00:30:47

Yeah.

495

: 00:30:48

They were going to expand to Vegas, I think, too, and LA.

496

: 00:30:51

I don't know if that theater still exists, but they were expanding a lot and it was

becoming kind of homogenized.

497

: 00:30:57

Like what I loved about Second City, at least turn it away, is it was like it was like

revolutionary in a way.

498

: 00:31:03

It was like this whole new form of theater, you know.

499

: 00:31:07

It just kind of became a packaged commodity in a way.

500

: 00:31:11

make sense.

501

: 00:31:12

Yeah, I mean, that's what happens with these things.

502

: 00:31:14

was Second City and then it was uh what was Amy Poehler's theater.

503

: 00:31:20

Upright Citizens Brigade.

504

: 00:31:21

Yeah, that was that kind of took over for Second City in terms of the feeder, the feeder

operation for SNL.

505

: 00:31:27

Yeah, there's a lot of them in Chicago too, like Annoyance Theater and all these that are

all the pipeline because Chicago is still the mecca for improv comedy, I think.

506

: 00:31:36

Yeah, that's cool.

507

: 00:31:37

Yeah, there are a lot of good life lessons in improv too.

508

: 00:31:42

Yes, play to the top of your intelligence.

509

: 00:31:46

eh Make your partner look better than you.

510

: 00:31:48

Yeah.

511

: 00:31:48

Yeah.

512

: 00:31:49

I was really into Second City.

513

: 00:31:50

I was really into that.

514

: 00:31:51

And for a while, I think when that was happening, I think that I thought maybe I'd have a

future in this.

515

: 00:31:55

But then the auditions came and went and I kind of bombed the audition.

516

: 00:31:58

And then the theater was managed kind of into the ground and it closed after about two

years, which was sad, but it was a wonderful time.

517

: 00:32:07

mean, the amount of money they must have been losing because the bartenders would just

like be pouring us drinks all night for free.

518

: 00:32:12

And it was just kind of like, you're just hemorrhaging money.

519

: 00:32:15

But it was super fun, super, super fun period of time.

520

: 00:32:18

And then I saw that closing.

521

: 00:32:19

I dated one girl from there and then I dated another woman, Becky, who I'm still friends

with, was dating her towards the end and she was moving to Israel to go, she was uh born

522

: 00:32:31

again Christian at the time, and she was moving to Israel to go and get her masters in

religious studies.

523

: 00:32:37

we were dating for like eight months at the time and I was like, well, what am I gonna do

next?

524

: 00:32:41

Second city's closing, I need to.

525

: 00:32:43

get my life moving, need to have some forward momentum of some sort.

526

: 00:32:47

And my sister had lived and worked and taught in Taiwan for a couple of years and she

really had, she traveled all over the world for a period of time when she was in her 20s.

527

: 00:32:55

And so I knew that this could be a thing you could do.

528

: 00:32:57

You know, I think that is a big, big part of it was just that my sister showed me you

could do it.

529

: 00:33:02

So yeah, I started looking into teaching in Asia and Korea was the one that I ended up

going with.

530

: 00:33:09

So yeah, when, when, when Becky moved to Israel,

531

: 00:33:13

Maybe a month later, I moved to Korea in the end of 2003, maybe?

532

: 00:33:19

South Korea.

533

: 00:33:20

um It was a weird, it was, I mean, it's culture shock, because I was living in Incheon,

which is like a big city comparatively to most cities in the US.

534

: 00:33:29

It's a giant city.

535

: 00:33:30

It's on the port there, but it's a very homogenous country.

536

: 00:33:33

So you are often getting stared at or being, you know, hello, hello.

537

: 00:33:37

think it's an experience everybody should have at some point in their life as being the

other.

538

: 00:33:42

by themselves in a country that all, I rarely would see white people anywhere.

539

: 00:33:48

Except there was one bar in Incheon called the Duck Duck, and you'd go in there and

suddenly you are, it was the expat bar, so it was people from all over the world that

540

: 00:33:56

weren't Korean.

541

: 00:33:58

It was kind of wild.

542

: 00:33:59

I was in Incheon at that job, which was like a year contract to school, it was, Mr.

543

: 00:34:04

Cho was the guy's name, very strange.

544

: 00:34:07

I didn't have any teaching experience.

545

: 00:34:10

It was really like, here's a book.

546

: 00:34:12

Go teach.

547

: 00:34:13

and um...

548

: 00:34:14

And it was, oh the schedule was like insane.

549

: 00:34:17

Like it was, I was teaching all the time.

550

: 00:34:20

I teaching so many different ages.

551

: 00:34:22

I would teach like five year olds and six year olds.

552

: 00:34:24

And then I teach like teenagers and then like adults too.

553

: 00:34:27

And I had no idea what the fuck I was doing.

554

: 00:34:29

So it was very, very stressful.

555

: 00:34:31

And frankly, you you can put them up in an apartment, at least back then.

556

: 00:34:36

I don't know if they still do this, but they would put you up in an apartment for the year

that you're teaching there.

557

: 00:34:40

And the apartment was kind of a piece of crap too.

558

: 00:34:42

And then after about, I think it was two or three months, I realized that I have to get

out of this.

559

: 00:34:46

Oh no.

560

: 00:34:47

Why?

561

: 00:34:49

because I was just not happy.

562

: 00:34:50

had no support.

563

: 00:34:51

was the only English speaker, really.

564

: 00:34:53

Mr.

565

: 00:34:53

Chose spoke English okay.

566

: 00:34:55

I think one of the other teachers spoke it okay, but really there was not even a lot of

English spoken.

567

: 00:35:00

So I was very isolating in that way as well.

568

: 00:35:03

And like, I just didn't have any guidance at all.

569

: 00:35:05

And I felt...

570

: 00:35:07

I just hated it.

571

: 00:35:08

really, I mean, that was the end of it.

572

: 00:35:09

I just felt alone and very isolated.

573

: 00:35:12

And so then I met some other people who were teaching and told them about what it was like

at my school.

574

: 00:35:16

And they were telling me about what it was like at their schools.

575

: 00:35:18

And I realized, oh, this is bad.

576

: 00:35:20

This is not what it's supposed to be like.

577

: 00:35:23

Like they were talking about how much guidance they'd been given and how much, know,

system, you know.

578

: 00:35:28

So I made a very difficult decision to like flee.

579

: 00:35:32

I...

580

: 00:35:33

What do mean fleet?

581

: 00:35:34

I lived in the apartment that they kept me in, so I basically packed up all my stuff.

582

: 00:35:40

I actually found another teacher to take over for me because I was trying to be as good

about this as I could given the situation.

583

: 00:35:49

Then I just cleaned the apartment and sent that teacher to school instead of me one day.

584

: 00:35:54

Then I went.

585

: 00:35:55

I stayed with the friends of mine actually in their house, in their apartment because they

had an extra room in their apartment.

586

: 00:36:00

stayed with them for like-

587

: 00:36:01

there?

588

: 00:36:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for like two or three weeks.

589

: 00:36:04

And that was super fun.

590

: 00:36:06

Morell and Joe from Australia, we had a good time together.

591

: 00:36:08

And then I flew to Thailand to get a, because the game was you could get a tourist visa

and then teach illegally and make a lot more money in Seoul.

592

: 00:36:18

So I went to Thailand.

593

: 00:36:19

I planned to go just for a couple of days to get a tourist visa, but like I ended up

staying for like two weeks because it was incredibly cheap and I got a cabana on the beach

594

: 00:36:27

on the islands down in the south of Thailand.

595

: 00:36:29

It was beautiful.

596

: 00:36:30

Had a great time.

597

: 00:36:31

And then.

598

: 00:36:31

And.

599

: 00:36:34

found a place to live in Seoul.

600

: 00:36:37

Slowly but surely started finding like private students to teach in different kind of

schools.

601

: 00:36:41

Like I would teach part-time at one school and then have some private students and stuff

and had a much better time frankly because there were a lot more expats there.

602

: 00:36:49

Not that I didn't want to meet Koreans but it was difficult because they spoke Korean a

lot of the time.

603

: 00:36:54

Um

604

: 00:36:56

And I didn't speak very good Korean.

605

: 00:36:57

I could read it, but I couldn't.

606

: 00:37:00

And yeah, I was in Seoul for, I don't know, about a year, year and a half teaching

different kinds of schools.

607

: 00:37:04

And the funny thing is at the very end of my time there, I knew I had to leave because it

was like, can't stay there too long.

608

: 00:37:09

It's a very easy life.

609

: 00:37:10

And at the very end, was like, I knew I had to leave, but I got the best job that I'd had

the entire time I'd been in Korea.

610

: 00:37:16

Like was this amazing school, this like very expensive school.

611

: 00:37:20

And they had like a very locked down curriculum.

612

: 00:37:23

And I was teaching like

613

: 00:37:24

Hemingway to high school kids and they were like loving me as a teacher.

614

: 00:37:27

I was like using my comedy and being funny and they got the jokes and then their parents

would come in and praise me.

615

: 00:37:33

It was just a, and they paid me a ton of money and it just sucked that it was towards the

end because uh yeah, that was a great, that was actually, it was good to leave on that

616

: 00:37:41

note at least though.

617

: 00:37:43

What was the one where it was your birthday?

618

: 00:37:46

Oh yeah, yeah, when I was at that first school, because I moved to Korea and I think it

was October of that year, wherever it was, right when I turned 30, right?

619

: 00:37:53

So was 29 when I moved there and I turned 30 in December of that year, on December 4th,

it's my birthday.

620

: 00:37:59

Yeah, the school had this very strange birthday party for me where I sat at a table, at a

long, you know, folding table in front of a classroom.

621

: 00:38:09

They pulled out all this food, like big piles of like sweets and fruits and everything,

this giant spread.

622

: 00:38:15

and

623

: 00:38:15

put a sign up that says happy birthday in English and then had every single class get

their picture with me, you know, and everything.

624

: 00:38:20

And then I'm thinking, we're to get to have a feast here.

625

: 00:38:23

And then they just put the food away and gave us each like one choco pie.

626

: 00:38:29

Just like, I'm fucking out.

627

: 00:38:31

culture is different.

628

: 00:38:32

It's like cultural differences.

629

: 00:38:33

I don't know.

630

: 00:38:33

You know, it was, it was a strange one.

631

: 00:38:35

It was a weird, weird way to turn 30.

632

: 00:38:37

I'll say that.

633

: 00:38:40

Any love interests in your time in Korea?

634

: 00:38:42

No

635

: 00:38:43

not any Korean women.

636

: 00:38:46

kind of, I don't know if it was intentional, but it just seemed complicated to date Korean

women and I didn't even know how to really approach, you know, I'm still pretty awkward at

637

: 00:38:55

this age and my self-confidence is not all that great in that arena.

638

: 00:38:59

But I did meet, I was, it was about three or four months before I was about to leave.

639

: 00:39:03

I was on, I went to the DMZ tour, you know, can go to the Demilitarized Zone.

640

: 00:39:09

you can like walk into like,

641

: 00:39:10

Well, you can like basically step in North Korea.

642

: 00:39:12

It's an amazing tour.

643

: 00:39:13

Anyway, uh met this woman on that trip.

644

: 00:39:16

uh She doesn't talk to me anymore.

645

: 00:39:22

Lauren Varney, that was her name.

646

: 00:39:24

And she was a beautiful, beautiful woman.

647

: 00:39:27

And we just hit it off on this trip and just started being very flirty.

648

: 00:39:30

And then we went out to dinner and had honestly one of the most romantic dates.

649

: 00:39:35

we had, I think we had Thai food.

650

: 00:39:37

Then we went to this like bar to have drinks and like the bar was like shutting down but

we were like dancing in the bar because it was playing they were playing like Ella

651

: 00:39:45

Fitzgerald or something.

652

: 00:39:46

So we're like dancing in the bar as it's closing down.

653

: 00:39:49

No, and some guys looking at his watch, you know.

654

: 00:39:51

Yeah, really, it was very quick kind of infatuation kind of thing.

655

: 00:39:55

She was just visiting Korea because she was teaching in Japan.

656

: 00:39:58

She went back to Japan.

657

: 00:40:00

But then I was like, well, I'll come see you, you know, in Japan after I'm done with this.

658

: 00:40:04

with my time here, I'll come to Japan first and stay with you for a couple weeks and then

go home.

659

: 00:40:09

So, yeah, we kept in touch and then I did go see her in Gifu, Japan.

660

: 00:40:14

And that was really fun.

661

: 00:40:15

She lived, I mean, Gifu was in the middle of nowhere.

662

: 00:40:17

So it was an interesting experience.

663

: 00:40:19

There was an earthquake while I was there.

664

: 00:40:20

That was exciting.

665

: 00:40:23

Yeah, but it was pretty cool.

666

: 00:40:24

went to Kyoto, other cities.

667

: 00:40:28

Why don't you blame her for never talking to you again?

668

: 00:40:31

Well, so then when I was in Korea, that's when I started getting the film bug.

669

: 00:40:35

I was always into films, I think, because I remember seeing Woody Allen's Annie Hall and

being blown away by the fact that you could make like a cinematically beautiful comedy,

670

: 00:40:44

because comedy to me at that point had been like these, you know, poorly made, whatever.

671

: 00:40:49

But then in Korea, I had a like an old power shot camera that probably shot, you know,

480p or something, you know, could shoot limited video, but it shot video and I was

672

: 00:40:58

totally into it.

673

: 00:40:59

So I would shoot video all the time and then I got Premiere Pro.

674

: 00:41:02

I think I pirated it actually and just kind of taught myself how to edit.

675

: 00:41:06

It made this montage of my videos that I'd shot in Korea.

676

: 00:41:10

Yeah, just playing with, you know, being able to do speed ramps, know, speeding things up,

slowing things down, reversing things and editing the music.

677

: 00:41:17

was all, uh it was all really exciting to me.

678

: 00:41:20

And so I thought, what am I going to do when I get out of here?

679

: 00:41:22

I got to have a plan when I leave Korea.

680

: 00:41:24

So I was really into, I had gone to see Becky in Israel.

681

: 00:41:28

and started getting very much into Israel, like Middle Eastern politics at the time I was

reading books about it.

682

: 00:41:33

So I thought I was like debating between going into Middle Eastern studies or going into

film.

683

: 00:41:39

Fortunately, I went into film because good Lord, I couldn't imagine going into Middle

Eastern studies.

684

: 00:41:44

Like that doesn't fit my personality at all.

685

: 00:41:46

I started to look into film schools and I didn't have a lot of like work, but I did have

some like stuff that I'd edited together to show that I had some sense of chops, you know.

686

: 00:41:56

One of them was this weird.

687

: 00:41:58

video of a, we blew up a watermelon with a quarter stick of dynamite on one fourth of

July.

688

: 00:42:04

And I just remixed it into like a very bizarre, you know, backwards and forward, slow

motion, all this kind of crazy.

689

: 00:42:11

It's called, My God, It Makes You.

690

: 00:42:13

I'll put a link in the show notes for that one.

691

: 00:42:16

So yeah, but then got into the Savannah College of Art and Design, which is one of the

most expensive art schools in the country.

692

: 00:42:23

So that was great.

693

: 00:42:24

But you know, I wasn't thinking about.

694

: 00:42:25

Like I was thinking, I'll be able to make money.

695

: 00:42:27

If I go into film school, you can make a ton of money, know, can pay that off easy.

696

: 00:42:31

And then, yeah, that's why I moved back to Cleveland for that summer and then went to,

started going to SCAD to get my A in film.

697

: 00:42:39

and that fall.

698

: 00:42:41

Is this the answer to the question, why didn't the girl from Japan want to talk to you

anymore?

699

: 00:42:46

Good point.

700

: 00:42:47

um So, you know, me and Lauren were going to try to keep the relationship going, but she

was still in Japan.

701

: 00:42:54

And then I got to film school and this woman, uh younger, beautiful woman was very much

into me to a degree that was like, whoa, you know, and she was there and she was also a

702

: 00:43:05

film person.

703

: 00:43:06

like we had very much a connection.

704

: 00:43:08

And I broke up with Lauren.

705

: 00:43:11

And after I broke up with Lauren, this woman who was

706

: 00:43:14

at one point very interested in me started to not be interested in me because aren't

people fickle.

707

: 00:43:19

m Yeah.

708

: 00:43:21

What year is this?

709

: 00:43:24

2005-ish, 2006, something like that.

710

: 00:43:26

Okay, so this is not the girl who's in your film suite.

711

: 00:43:31

Yeah, yeah.

712

: 00:43:32

uh

713

: 00:43:33

We went on a couple dates, but we never actually dated.

714

: 00:43:37

So she was just an actress that wasn't, cause it seemed so, we can get into this in a more

formal way maybe, but I assume this film suite, which is kind of a, it's like a pastiche

715

: 00:43:49

sort of somewhat experimental relationship video.

716

: 00:43:53

That was like a, that was a school project, I assume.

717

: 00:43:57

Yeah, that just happened.

718

: 00:43:58

I had this idea.

719

: 00:43:59

We wanted to do me and my friend Ryan Dickey, who I went to school with, who you know, who

shot a dog.

720

: 00:44:05

D.P.

721

: 00:44:06

Great DP.

722

: 00:44:07

Yeah, great guy.

723

: 00:44:08

He's shot everything that I've made, I think, actually.

724

: 00:44:11

Yeah, so we were going to make, I had this idea there was a lighthouse in the bay there in

Savannah, the Tybee Island Bay, I forget what the name of it is, but there was this old

725

: 00:44:21

lighthouse that was not being used and it was the coolest looking thing and it was

surrounded by water.

726

: 00:44:26

And I had this idea to do this, like, Johanna was gonna be in that one as well and it was

just this relationship drama that takes place in the confined space of a lighthouse.

727

: 00:44:34

I don't remember the details.

728

: 00:44:36

I feel like I've heard iterations of this idea.

729

: 00:44:38

no, I've been stewing on this idea for 30 years or 20 years now.

730

: 00:44:42

But you did write something.

731

: 00:44:45

Yeah, no, I've got stuff in my present.

732

: 00:44:47

Yeah, yeah, I didn't.

733

: 00:44:48

I never finished the feature.

734

: 00:44:50

I still don't know how to finish it.

735

: 00:44:51

But at some point, maybe when I'm 70 or 60 or maybe next year.

736

: 00:44:55

So we ended up buying a dinghy like I bought a dinghy, like a little boat, you know,

sporting goods store.

737

: 00:45:01

And we drove the dinghy out to this with no life jackets and just like rode out to the

lighthouse to do a location scout.

738

: 00:45:06

And it was it was dangerous.

739

: 00:45:08

Like you get out there and we were starting to get tossed around.

740

: 00:45:10

We, you know.

741

: 00:45:12

But we got on the lighthouse and I still have a great video of that, of our locations cut

out there.

742

: 00:45:17

But I tried to get permits from the Parks Department or something and they were like,

well, you weren't even supposed to be on that lighthouse.

743

: 00:45:23

So we didn't get permits and I had like, I think a week to finish this project.

744

: 00:45:28

So I was like, all right, pivoting.

745

: 00:45:31

Which was a revelation in a way because it was like, you'll film us walking around at

magic hour.

746

: 00:45:35

I'll do this thing in this bar.

747

: 00:45:37

We'll bring the camera to the bar and we'll reenact this.

748

: 00:45:39

And it just kind of came together.

749

: 00:45:41

and

750

: 00:45:41

Yeah, I was really happy with how that came out actually uh for being as as slapdash as it

was it has a vibe to it

751

: 00:45:49

What was the assignment?

752

: 00:45:50

It was just a directing final.

753

: 00:45:52

Okay, so you could just do whatever you wanted.

754

: 00:45:55

Kind of, yeah.

755

: 00:45:55

I think I emailed the professor and was like, hey, can I pivot because we can't get the

lighthouse?

756

: 00:45:59

he's like, got an A, got an A.

757

: 00:46:03

So how do we get to coverage, which I would say feels like your first kind of serious

short film.

758

: 00:46:12

Is that fair to Yeah.

759

: 00:46:14

Yeah, that was like my thesis film.

760

: 00:46:16

So I wanted it to be good.

761

: 00:46:17

That was like what I was gonna come out with.

762

: 00:46:19

and just to describe coverage just briefly.

763

: 00:46:23

Coverage is a movie about a man who becomes sexually obsessed with 9-11 footage.

764

: 00:46:29

It's a relationship drama, but 9-11 happens and then the relationship kind of begins to

unravel because he gets this addiction to 9-11 footage.

765

: 00:46:38

Yeah, which is interesting because, I hadn't seen it in years and I went back and rewatch

it and I feel like I had your description of the movie in my head more than the movie

766

: 00:46:47

itself.

767

: 00:46:48

And I was I was surprised to at my experience rewatching it because it's it's not I think

when you describe it the way you do, it kind of comes off as if it's like this a little

768

: 00:47:01

bit silly, maybe absurdist kind of a thing.

769

: 00:47:04

But the reality is that this is a guy who's numb.

770

: 00:47:07

who's not able to be intimate or get aroused before 9-11.

771

: 00:47:15

it's kind of, think watching it through the lens, even, I think I first watched it maybe

10 years ago when we first met.

772

: 00:47:22

And then watching it again where society is now, the hyper-stimulative nature of media.

773

: 00:47:30

And it's cool, it puts it in a new context.

774

: 00:47:34

There was a Burroughs, like a William Burroughs quote that I was always thinking about

when I was making that.

775

: 00:47:38

was something about the repetition and impact of image creates sexual arousal or something

like that.

776

: 00:47:43

I was always struck by that.

777

: 00:47:44

And then there's films like Crash, like Cronenberg's Crash, which was about em people

fetishizing car crashes that was also kind of a loose influence there.

778

: 00:47:54

Yeah, it's a human drama.

779

: 00:47:55

I'm proud of that film.

780

: 00:47:57

And the fact that I actually got it made was the amazing part, because the school...

781

: 00:48:01

didn't really want to have anything to do with it, although we did use some of their gear,

but I had one professor, Mike Nolan, who was a really strange, cool guy.

782

: 00:48:09

I really liked him.

783

: 00:48:10

And he was the one who was like, this is the film you have to make, I'm so grateful

because I had some other ideas for films that I was going to make and they were all kind

784

: 00:48:19

of lame.

785

: 00:48:19

And he's like, this is the interesting one.

786

: 00:48:22

And I was, he was right.

787

: 00:48:23

He was totally right.

788

: 00:48:24

Was that film shot in Savannah or in New York?

789

: 00:48:26

Yeah, we rented a house and then rented a bunch of furniture from Brenna Center and like

it was a house that was on the market.

790

: 00:48:32

So the guy who rented it us said we could pay so we could paint it and stuff.

791

: 00:48:37

yeah, this giant old mansion.

792

: 00:48:39

now, yeah, that's the only location.

793

: 00:48:40

That was kind of my one thing that I wanted to do was to have a place, a thing I could

shoot on one location just to keep it simple.

794

: 00:48:47

Yeah, the performances are really strong and there's some there's some very strong

imagery.

795

: 00:48:53

I mean, the shooting style, I feel like is is, your style that you kind of stuck with for

coverage and to a certain extent into adult.

796

: 00:49:02

Honestly, it's that's Ryan Dickey.

797

: 00:49:03

I mean, it's me and Ryan Dickey, but like we always kind of understood each other and he

kind of just got like.

798

: 00:49:08

not to spoil it, but the image of towards the end when Michael is very kind of furiously

masturbating with the headphones on.

799

: 00:49:17

And that is one of the, maybe one of the more disturbing cinematic images I've seen.

800

: 00:49:24

uh

801

: 00:49:26

with the rag in his mouth, sock in his mouth.

802

: 00:49:28

was that part of the script the sock in his mouth or is that?

803

: 00:49:31

uh

804

: 00:49:32

I don't remember if that was on, we figured that out then or not.

805

: 00:49:35

was, that was a big collaboration.

806

: 00:49:36

I, uh this auteur theory thing with filmmaking, it's all bullshit because filmmaking is

the most collaborative thing and any of my films, they wouldn't have been nearly as good

807

: 00:49:46

had I not embraced collaboration, I feel like, like I did because like I would even meet

with Michael and Laura the actor and actress every day before we shot and we'd rewrite

808

: 00:49:54

parts of the script just based on what we'd already shot and how it had been different.

809

: 00:49:58

Cause there was some improv in there and it was really a fun.

810

: 00:50:01

a fun process.

811

: 00:50:02

Do you want to get into your collaboration with Michael at all?

812

: 00:50:06

Yeah, we met in the theater school.

813

: 00:50:07

Right.

814

: 00:50:07

Yeah, in like fourth grade maybe.

815

: 00:50:09

And then remained friends during college even though he went to Juilliard and I was at OU.

816

: 00:50:15

Went to Russia together.

817

: 00:50:17

Went on my first international trip when I was an undergrad.

818

: 00:50:20

We got a grant together to go to Russia, a fellowship.

819

: 00:50:23

And then.

820

: 00:50:23

ah

821

: 00:50:25

when it came time to do my thesis film, he was the only person I really thought of being

in it.

822

: 00:50:29

I was like, of course I want Michael to be in it.

823

: 00:50:32

He had found Laura, who was the female actress in that.

824

: 00:50:36

And she was, I think, excited about it too, because it's, you know, it's an interesting

idea if you're wanting to do edgy stuff, like it was totally edgy, right?

825

: 00:50:42

She was.

826

: 00:50:46

The bedroom scene in particular, when she's like admitting it to him, that was a tough one

to get because it was like, it's such a weird thing to even be talking about.

827

: 00:50:52

But I feel like they brought a humanity to it.

828

: 00:50:54

The capacity to stay grounded in the reality of that situation would have made her break

that thing because it could have gone so south without those performances.

829

: 00:51:04

And then there is some comedy in it, I thought was like, you know, there's a great, you

know, that great line.

830

: 00:51:08

If you don't fuck me right now, the terrorists are going to win.

831

: 00:51:11

Yeah.

832

: 00:51:12

Yeah, but it wasn't like a joke.

833

: 00:51:15

It was a joke for each other in the world of the movie.

834

: 00:51:19

Yes.

835

: 00:51:19

More than it was for the audience, which made it almost when I was watching it made it

feel almost like sweet.

836

: 00:51:24

Yeah.

837

: 00:51:26

He came down from New York for that?

838

: 00:51:27

Yeah, I flew them both in from New York and I'm in a hotel and all that.

839

: 00:51:31

And I did start dating Laura before we started shooting that film.

840

: 00:51:36

Really upset him.

841

: 00:51:39

He claimed it was because he thought it was going to screw up the film or something.

842

: 00:51:41

And I was like, it's not going to do that.

843

: 00:51:43

You had met her through him and she was in New York.

844

: 00:51:47

She was in New York, I think the first time we met, had dinner together, me and Laura and

Michael had dinner.

845

: 00:51:52

It was clear that night that like me and Laura had a thing for each other.

846

: 00:51:55

So yeah, coverage went well.

847

: 00:52:00

Moved to New York, moved in with Laura there.

848

: 00:52:04

wow, I didn't know that.

849

: 00:52:05

Yeah, but in the kitchen, she had an apartment.

850

: 00:52:10

Me and Michael were still very good friends and uh we're still, you know, I edited a film

that he had made called Gold Star Ohio, uh which actually has the guy who's the big famous

851

: 00:52:19

guy now who's in everything.

852

: 00:52:20

He was in the star Wars.

853

: 00:52:21

What's his name?

854

: 00:52:23

Adam driver.

855

: 00:52:24

And I remember editing him and there was like one scene with him and I was like, I didn't

know who this guy was at the time.

856

: 00:52:28

He was not well known.

857

: 00:52:30

And I was like, this guy's got and I was right.

858

: 00:52:33

And then we both went through a breakup because Laura ended up, you know, kind of cheating

on me on us.

859

: 00:52:37

that end.

860

: 00:52:39

Then we came up, we were sitting and drinking wine in our bar in Brooklyn and came up with

the idea for FTLF because he'd gotten dumped as well.

861

: 00:52:46

interesting.

862

: 00:52:46

So Laura was the dumping that inspired after you left.

863

: 00:52:51

It was Laura and his getting dumped as well.

864

: 00:52:53

was a double dump.

865

: 00:52:54

The double D.

866

: 00:52:55

And so we were in a bar just talking about what we're going to do with these sadness.

867

: 00:52:58

And so we thought, let's just try to make a movie.

868

: 00:53:00

And we started writing down like a loose outline and wanted to do it improvised.

869

: 00:53:05

We were going to shoot a feature, but just started shooting stuff.

870

: 00:53:08

randomly and

871

: 00:53:09

Never ended up finishing the thing to make a feature, but I just kind of edited together

what we had and made it the best thing I could.

872

: 00:53:17

It got into one festival that had given me an award in the year before.

873

: 00:53:21

So I think it was kind of a gimme, but, everybody loved it there, but then didn't get into

anything because I submitted it to a ton of stuff and I'd only submitted it to Sundance

874

: 00:53:28

because I had submitted coverage to Sundance and you could submit for free if you, if you

submitted before.

875

: 00:53:33

And so I submitted it and then yeah, and Thanksgiving of that year, 2010.

876

: 00:53:39

That was Allone on Thanksgiving and my

877

: 00:53:41

and got a phone call.

878

: 00:53:43

saying that, got into Sundance Film Festival, which, you know, at the time, it felt like,

you I immediately call Michael.

879

: 00:53:50

It was a real beautiful moment, honestly, because it was like we'd been friends for years,

and now we had been started to be creative friends together again.

880

: 00:53:58

Yeah, ended up, you know, finding a little piece of magic there for 500 bucks.

881

: 00:54:03

bucks.

882

: 00:54:04

Yeah.

883

: 00:54:05

uh

884

: 00:54:06

Sundance, brought a lot of the cast with us.

885

: 00:54:09

It's a director's festival though, so I got attention.

886

: 00:54:12

I don't think he cared for that.

887

: 00:54:14

All the parties and stuff.

888

: 00:54:16

Then afterwards, we were trying to deal with like the money stuff, paying people back and

dealing with all that.

889

: 00:54:24

I was totally unemployed at the time, so I had to buy an asthma inhaler.

890

: 00:54:28

So I knew I took some of the money out to buy an inhaler so that I could continue to live.

891

: 00:54:33

He accused me of stealing the money.

892

: 00:54:35

And over that.

893

: 00:54:37

oh

894

: 00:54:38

not sure if stealing the money was actually the thing.

895

: 00:54:42

If there was something else, it still sticks with me.

896

: 00:54:45

And then he would be these, send me these crazy emails, suggesting we make competing

versions.

897

: 00:54:49

Cause I was meeting with all these, you know, production companies at the time.

898

: 00:54:53

They were all asking for like a feature length version, which was our plan was to make a

feature.

899

: 00:54:57

We'd already started writing it.

900

: 00:54:59

And he was a co-producer, so I couldn't, I couldn't do anything.

901

: 00:55:03

and go forward with it and he wouldn't let me go forward with it and he would suggest like

why don't we do competing versions of it and see who's is better and it was just like what

902

: 00:55:10

dude what are we even talking about?

903

: 00:55:13

Really like my heart that was one of the most difficult things I went through and in my

life was losing Michael as a friend because he was like

904

: 00:55:22

New York.

905

: 00:55:24

We were working together on this production company.

906

: 00:55:26

We were doing all these things.

907

: 00:55:27

And then we got into Sundance and then the world opened up.

908

: 00:55:31

We snapped it shut.

909

: 00:55:33

you know.

910

: 00:55:34

Yeah, it's weird.

911

: 00:55:35

feels like you guys that, you know, his career didn't, doesn't appear to have really moved

much.

912

: 00:55:42

No, no.

913

: 00:55:43

And I really just don't understand why you would.

914

: 00:55:45

know, collaboration is difficult, right?

915

: 00:55:48

There's going to be arguments.

916

: 00:55:49

There's going to be difficult things, right?

917

: 00:55:51

I'm not saying that I'm innocent here.

918

: 00:55:52

Like, I was not probably an easy person to work with at times.

919

: 00:55:55

I tried to be as, I mean, who knows?

920

: 00:55:58

I can't see myself from back then, but the way he portrayed me was as if I had been just

this kind of exploiting everybody's all this acting work and all this stuff just to get

921

: 00:56:09

what I wanted.

922

: 00:56:10

And I was like,

923

: 00:56:10

I don't understand that like.

924

: 00:56:13

That's all about what people are their own stories.

925

: 00:56:17

Right.

926

: 00:56:17

of course, of course.

927

: 00:56:19

But it's hard at the time to get it because I just I could understand, know, just not

wanting to be my friend anymore.

928

: 00:56:25

I it would still have been hard, but to not want to be my friend and to basically throw

away Sundance.

929

: 00:56:33

Yeah, like that was like he must really fucking hate me, you know.

930

: 00:56:37

Or there's some fear of success in a certain way.

931

: 00:56:41

mean, I think it feels like a self-sabotaging force.

932

: 00:56:45

I came to find out, he was a little bit bipolar or something because I ended up meeting

one of his girlfriends when he was dating when we went to Sundance and she told me a whole

933

: 00:56:54

other side of the story that I was like, oh, all right, this all makes sense now.

934

: 00:56:57

Like he has anger issues.

935

: 00:56:58

He was like kind of stalking her and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

936

: 00:57:02

was an enlightening story.

937

: 00:57:05

Right.

938

: 00:57:05

Well, who knows, but there are a lot of bipolar people who are still successful actors in

Hollywood.

939

: 00:57:10

at least shine some light on some of like the aggressive and anger issues that came out of

940

: 00:57:14

nowhere, you know.

941

: 00:57:15

He's got the goods.

942

: 00:57:16

mean, he's great to watch.

943

: 00:57:18

He is.

944

: 00:57:19

Interesting choices in a very subtle way, which I appreciate it.

945

: 00:57:23

also see it was seeing we've gotten into such a, you know, not to this isn't like I'm not

making a try not to make a political statement here, but just culturally we've we've moved

946

: 00:57:34

into a place where rightly so, I'd say in a lot of ways.

947

: 00:57:39

non white male stories are being centered more and more, especially in like the short film

and like artistic filmmaking world.

948

: 00:57:46

Yeah.

949

: 00:57:47

And to see uh a movie, you know, that was just like about male intimacy and friend and

friendship and the way that it shows up and the way it doesn't show up and all that.

950

: 00:58:01

I just it really warmed my heart, to be honest, in a way that it's been a while since I've

seen.

951

: 00:58:07

Since I felt that way, since I've seen myself portrayed on screen, there's a scene with

him and I think it's him and Garrett up on the roof where he talks about just trying to

952

: 00:58:17

cry.

953

: 00:58:19

And that experience and that just really resonated with me a lot now.

954

: 00:58:24

Cause I'm also older.

955

: 00:58:25

was 10 years ago that I first.

956

: 00:58:27

Right, you're the age that I was when I made that

957

: 00:58:29

Yeah, yeah.

958

: 00:58:35

But it's a double edged sword because

959

: 00:58:38

Under suite, em

960

: 00:58:39

Bittersweet.

961

: 00:58:40

but...

962

: 00:58:42

Yeah, yeah.

963

: 00:58:43

So when did you join the Brooklyn Filmmakers Collective?

964

: 00:58:47

Because that's where we met.

965

: 00:58:49

That's where we met.

966

: 00:58:49

That was a

967

: 00:58:50

Probably the year or two after Sundance, because they'd always been on my radar, but I

thought, so I can probably get in.

968

: 00:58:58

Because at the time, it was big.

969

: 00:58:59

When I got in there, there was a lot of applications.

970

: 00:59:01

I don't know what it's like now.

971

: 00:59:02

At the time, it was definitely an early elite organization, a collective that people

wanted to be involved in.

972

: 00:59:08

Yeah, I think I joined in 2012 maybe.

973

: 00:59:13

Yeah, I remember you like in the group, but it wasn't until you brought in, I think it was

just an audio recording that you had done with Garrett.

974

: 00:59:23

There were little videos we had made like a test thing with Garrett and Nick as well in my

house.

975

: 00:59:29

Remember I'm playing the accordion.

976

: 00:59:30

oh It's not my fault.

977

: 00:59:32

oh

978

: 00:59:34

I watched recently and they're still funny.

979

: 00:59:36

Maybe I'll put links to those.

980

: 00:59:39

But yeah, just shot some random stuff in my apartment.

981

: 00:59:42

some friends and uh

982

: 00:59:45

cut it together and played it just to see what people thought if they thought it was funny

or if anything was there.

983

: 00:59:50

You came up to me afterwards and you were like, hey, I love that.

984

: 00:59:55

I wanted to produce it.

985

: 00:59:55

And I was like...

986

: 00:59:57

Yeah, great.

987

: 00:59:58

Yeah, I just remember seeing it and I was like, this is great.

988

: 01:00:01

It's like there was something to it.

989

: 01:00:03

yeah, and then I remember having that first meeting with, I think, Garrett joined.

990

: 01:00:09

No, at a coffee house, we sat outside a coffee house and talked and we're thinking, I

didn't know you that well.

991

: 01:00:14

And we just started talking and I was like, this guy I like.

992

: 01:00:17

Like I remember thinking that I liked you right away.

993

: 01:00:20

and yeah.

994

: 01:00:20

um

995

: 01:00:22

We have a very similar way of kind seeing the world, I think, and I think we have the same

sense of humor in a lot of ways.

996

: 01:00:26

And I think that we just connected right away.

997

: 01:00:29

I just want to say, Chris, like you brought so much to that project, particularly in that

character you played, which is one of the most prescient characters I've ever had in any

998

: 01:00:35

film talking about Bitcoin 10 years ago.

999

: 01:00:38

I

: 1000

01:00:38,644 --> 01:00:41,070

Yeah, only I had taken that character's advice.

: 1001

01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:41,790

I know, right?

: 1002

01:00:41,790 --> 01:00:43,050

That's the funny thing.

: 1003

01:00:45,055 --> 01:00:46,308

I was thinking the same thing when I

: 1004

01:00:46,308 --> 01:00:47,000

rewatching that.

: 1005

01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,486

was like, uh, hopefully I remember.

: 1006

01:00:49,509 --> 01:00:50,993

Yeah, that was fun.

: 1007

01:00:50,993 --> 01:00:54,058

That was a fun project to work on in spite of the issues that we had at time.

: 1008

01:00:54,058 --> 01:00:54,636

and

: 1009

01:00:54,636 --> 01:00:56,761

Yeah, we got in some fights in that project.

: 1010

01:00:56,761 --> 01:00:59,854

I had few temper tantrums and so forth, but...

: 1011

01:00:59,854 --> 01:01:00,458

I

: 1012

01:01:00,458 --> 01:01:05,378

was not yet as zen at handling my own emotions.

: 1013

01:01:07,438 --> 01:01:15,918

And it's all it was, you know, in retrospect, all of those disagreements were all from

wanting everything to be the best possible thing.

: 1014

01:01:15,918 --> 01:01:16,838

know what I mean?

: 1015

01:01:17,418 --> 01:01:24,582

Discouragement that is almost inevitable in the filmmaking process when you start bringing

things together and you're like, oh, man, this is not.

: 1016

01:01:24,748 --> 01:01:25,818

what I thought it was going to be.

: 1017

01:01:25,818 --> 01:01:36,831

And then you get over that and you find you just are with it for what it is, which

especially with an improvised thing, you know, you have to let that original vision die so

: 1018

01:01:36,831 --> 01:01:47,204

you can rediscover what it is with the material that you've got, know, which is, you can

fall in love with that too, which is what ultimately happened.

: 1019

01:01:47,204 --> 01:01:52,626

But I think there was that moment in between where I was feeling so discouraged for

whatever reason.

: 1020

01:01:52,626 --> 01:01:53,720

I don't even remember why.

: 1021

01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:54,326

No, I-

: 1022

01:01:54,326 --> 01:01:56,598

I went through a lot of emotions during that shoot.

: 1023

01:01:56,598 --> 01:02:01,633

I realized early on that I was like, should not be directing and trying to star in an

improvised thing of any sort.

: 1024

01:02:01,633 --> 01:02:04,725

But I mean, I think it worked out.

: 1025

01:02:04,725 --> 01:02:08,458

And then the editing thing took like two years, which was the biggest struggle.

: 1026

01:02:08,819 --> 01:02:12,342

You know, I thought that since after you left was somewhat easier.

: 1027

01:02:12,342 --> 01:02:14,294

It wasn't that difficult to find the edit there.

: 1028

01:02:14,294 --> 01:02:16,876

I I spent a lot of time on it, but it wasn't nearly as hard.

: 1029

01:02:16,876 --> 01:02:19,288

But I think it was also because it was kind of smaller.

: 1030

01:02:19,288 --> 01:02:21,390

Like it wasn't as much footage, I don't think.

: 1031

01:02:21,390 --> 01:02:34,834

There was also a lot of plot machination in adults, whereas with coverage, was a very

like, was a reflection of vignettes and it kind of was like a poem or, and adults was not

: 1032

01:02:34,834 --> 01:02:35,474

really a poem.

: 1033

01:02:35,474 --> 01:02:37,675

It was much more of a story.

: 1034

01:02:37,675 --> 01:02:38,235

Yeah.

: 1035

01:02:38,235 --> 01:02:47,278

And I think we were trying to do what Curb Your Enthusiasm does and follow their template

of, know, where do we need to get by the end of this scene in order for the story to make

: 1036

01:02:47,278 --> 01:02:48,378

sense?

: 1037

01:02:48,534 --> 01:02:48,986

degree.

: 1038

01:02:48,986 --> 01:02:50,914

mean, that's what you have to do with improv in general, right?

: 1039

01:02:50,914 --> 01:02:51,646

I mean,

: 1040

01:02:51,646 --> 01:02:58,192

Yeah, my recommendation since that project for people has been to not do improvisation.

: 1041

01:03:00,656 --> 01:03:10,446

Just because, you know, because I worked with another film recently where they she was

very committed to wanting to do improv and she was also directing and writing and starring

: 1042

01:03:10,446 --> 01:03:12,047

and all the things.

: 1043

01:03:12,047 --> 01:03:15,150

And I feel like especially actor actors.

: 1044

01:03:15,150 --> 01:03:21,208

who are used to having lines, like it's hard for them to relax into a character when they

don't know.

: 1045

01:03:21,208 --> 01:03:22,580

Yes, for sure.

: 1046

01:03:22,580 --> 01:03:25,865

What's they also have to think about writing it at the same time, you know.

: 1047

01:03:25,865 --> 01:03:27,086

You're asking a

: 1048

01:03:27,086 --> 01:03:31,806

And I think that that was part of the reason that I was like, because like, who was I

going to find to act in that?

: 1049

01:03:31,806 --> 01:03:32,556

Me.

: 1050

01:03:32,556 --> 01:03:33,353

Yeah, no.

: 1051

01:03:33,353 --> 01:03:34,242

ah

: 1052

01:03:34,242 --> 01:03:38,231

But also that story kind of was both of the dynamic that me and Garrett had.

: 1053

01:03:38,231 --> 01:03:39,336

real life.

: 1054

01:03:39,336 --> 01:03:41,006

That was also a big part of it.

: 1055

01:03:41,006 --> 01:03:42,530

That was a big part of it for sure.

: 1056

01:03:42,530 --> 01:03:47,298

I mean, he's such a unique on screen presence.

: 1057

01:03:47,298 --> 01:03:49,878

brings such a weird interesting thing to that.

: 1058

01:03:49,878 --> 01:03:53,401

I had a great way.

: 1059

01:03:54,143 --> 01:03:59,228

And his wife is fabulous as well, Jen.

: 1060

01:03:59,229 --> 01:03:59,569

Yeah.

: 1061

01:03:59,569 --> 01:03:59,989

Yeah.

: 1062

01:03:59,989 --> 01:04:04,434

You do have a way of collaborators.

: 1063

01:04:04,434 --> 01:04:05,275

Yeah.

: 1064

01:04:06,478 --> 01:04:08,018

I mean, it's true,

: 1065

01:04:08,472 --> 01:04:11,104

But I don't think in Garrett's case I did anything wrong.

: 1066

01:04:11,104 --> 01:04:16,747

I think Garrett was talking about not wanting to be an acting at all for a long time.

: 1067

01:04:16,747 --> 01:04:22,284

He has meds at the time, you know, and I think that he, cause he's literally bipolar.

: 1068

01:04:22,284 --> 01:04:23,699

Yeah, that might be it.

: 1069

01:04:23,699 --> 01:04:27,529

You know, might be kind of working with a lot of people.

: 1070

01:04:27,810 --> 01:04:32,218

But yeah, I I don't think that that one had anything to do with because they moved to

upstate New York.

: 1071

01:04:32,218 --> 01:04:36,720

implication of me saying that was not to put the blame on your lap.

: 1072

01:04:37,661 --> 01:04:45,824

I have sure understandable, but it is an interesting, yeah, it's an interesting kind of

like a little bit of a, but you know, I don't think it's so uncommon though.

: 1073

01:04:45,824 --> 01:04:57,950

think being in a creative field where it's so it's this combination of vulnerability and

to a certain extent competition and you put everything out there and there's expectations

: 1074

01:04:57,950 --> 01:04:58,850

and you.

: 1075

01:04:58,850 --> 01:05:05,316

you know, as an actor, you have control, but you don't have control, you know, it's like,

think it's just a difficult dynamic.

: 1076

01:05:05,316 --> 01:05:13,384

And there's a reason why most people who are in film, they become a family on the film set

and they love each other and then they never talk again.

: 1077

01:05:13,384 --> 01:05:15,305

Like that, that's very common.

: 1078

01:05:15,342 --> 01:05:16,822

Yeah, and I

: 1079

01:05:16,822 --> 01:05:21,385

funny thing about that is that Garrett was an after, I mean, I met Garrett because of

Michael and after you left.

: 1080

01:05:21,865 --> 01:05:29,310

Then after the fallout with Michael, I didn't communicate with any of the people that I

had been friends with through him except for like Nick.

: 1081

01:05:29,330 --> 01:05:37,646

And then I just ran into Garrett at a coffee house in Park Slope and we just started

talking and we started talking like we talk in the show and we're like, this is funny, we

: 1082

01:05:37,646 --> 01:05:38,877

should make something.

: 1083

01:05:38,877 --> 01:05:40,277

And that's how.

: 1084

01:05:40,578 --> 01:05:41,206

So.

: 1085

01:05:41,206 --> 01:05:43,689

Yeah, the show really is that dynamic.

: 1086

01:05:43,689 --> 01:05:50,432

However you describe that, that chemistry between the two of you is really the

foundational adults.

: 1087

01:05:50,432 --> 01:05:51,465

It was...

: 1088

01:05:51,934 --> 01:05:52,600

We had a funny...

: 1089

01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:53,313

Fandamic.

: 1090

01:05:53,313 --> 01:05:53,836

Missed the guy.

: 1091

01:05:53,836 --> 01:05:54,574

Missed the guy.

: 1092

01:05:54,574 --> 01:05:56,154

Yeah, me too.

: 1093

01:05:56,334 --> 01:05:56,734

All right.

: 1094

01:05:56,734 --> 01:06:01,774

Well, so that's that's the film career so far for the most part.

: 1095

01:06:01,814 --> 01:06:02,054

Yeah.

: 1096

01:06:02,054 --> 01:06:06,094

And then you left New York after that.

: 1097

01:06:07,574 --> 01:06:10,234

I'm still sad about it.

: 1098

01:06:10,594 --> 01:06:12,475

You were, I mean, 10 years was enough for me.

: 1099

01:06:12,475 --> 01:06:16,155

think maybe when you get to be in your mid forties, you might be ready to go to.

: 1100

01:06:16,636 --> 01:06:19,546

mean, of course my re leaving was because I had no work.

: 1101

01:06:19,546 --> 01:06:26,198

And like, that was the story of a lot of my life in New York was that I just consistent

work, consistently eluded me.

: 1102

01:06:27,119 --> 01:06:28,129

Last year I was there.

: 1103

01:06:28,129 --> 01:06:30,299

just, uh, nothing was coming.

: 1104

01:06:30,299 --> 01:06:33,890

And I, but I mean, I really lived off of Bitcoin for a lot of that year.

: 1105

01:06:33,890 --> 01:06:35,321

was amazing.

: 1106

01:06:35,741 --> 01:06:38,882

You know, I ended up getting, I had a job that was paying me a fortune.

: 1107

01:06:38,882 --> 01:06:39,630

It was like,

: 1108

01:06:39,630 --> 01:06:40,334

800, like that.

: 1109

01:06:40,334 --> 01:06:48,640

$25,000 an hour day or so much, but of course I wasn't taking it out of my taxes or paying

quarterly So I got a bill for like a $25,000 in taxes now.

: 1110

01:06:48,640 --> 01:07:00,418

I'm sustainable So like I got to get out of here ah And I just started looking for jobs

anyway Yeah, just one click apply on LinkedIn for Hollister in Columbus and I already knew

: 1111

01:07:00,418 --> 01:07:04,451

people Dad was kind of getting a little bit sick at this point.

: 1112

01:07:04,451 --> 01:07:08,083

So I thought this is not the worst thing to happen You know cousins here.

: 1113

01:07:08,083 --> 01:07:09,374

I've seen friends

: 1114

01:07:09,782 --> 01:07:13,915

So you were at Hollister basically until the pandemic more or less, right?

: 1115

01:07:13,915 --> 01:07:15,225

Yeah, but.

: 1116

01:07:15,786 --> 01:07:17,757

Did you get laid off there or did you leave the job?

: 1117

01:07:17,757 --> 01:07:20,288

And then.

: 1118

01:07:21,169 --> 01:07:22,285

Right, classic.

: 1119

01:07:22,285 --> 01:07:24,327

I was very excited about the job at first.

: 1120

01:07:24,327 --> 01:07:28,910

They kind of been like during the interviews, they've been like, we love these wacky

creative things.

: 1121

01:07:28,910 --> 01:07:29,861

And I was like, this is great.

: 1122

01:07:29,861 --> 01:07:31,252

They like the weird stuff.

: 1123

01:07:31,252 --> 01:07:34,114

But then of course you want you get into a corporate structure.

: 1124

01:07:34,242 --> 01:07:42,911

I still kind of kept my, my weird vibe kind of a thing, but it was still selling clothes

for teenagers, which wasn't entirely fulfilling.

: 1125

01:07:42,911 --> 01:07:44,248

People seem to really enjoy it.

: 1126

01:07:44,248 --> 01:07:49,227

be in these department meetings, know, and sold and.

: 1127

01:07:49,227 --> 01:07:51,396

There were people staying next to me who would be like, woo.

: 1128

01:07:51,396 --> 01:07:52,198

m

: 1129

01:07:52,514 --> 01:07:56,006

I'd look at them and I'd be like, what the do you?

: 1130

01:07:56,373 --> 01:07:58,549

You've got to be excited about something.

: 1131

01:07:58,549 --> 01:08:02,888

the player part of team or whatever, but.

: 1132

01:08:03,001 --> 01:08:07,283

Anyway, yeah, so looking back, it was great that I got let go because I wasn't happy

there.

: 1133

01:08:08,025 --> 01:08:13,089

I learned at that job that all organizations are inherently disorderly.

: 1134

01:08:13,089 --> 01:08:17,351

Calling an organization is an aspirational idea as opposed to a realistic.

: 1135

01:08:17,745 --> 01:08:18,930

description.

: 1136

01:08:18,957 --> 01:08:21,894

Why don't uh

: 1137

01:08:22,622 --> 01:08:25,741

They laid me off via Zoom and I think June of

: 1138

01:08:25,741 --> 01:08:27,842

that: 2020

: 1139

01:08:27,842 --> 01:08:36,878

Yeah, I was, I was panicking because, know, picked up and moved my entire life from New

York to Columbus for this job that I'd had for about a little more than a year and a half.

: 1140

01:08:36,878 --> 01:08:39,303

Here I was living in Columbus without a

: 1141

01:08:39,303 --> 01:08:42,729

uh which is what I was doing in a lot of the time.

: 1142

01:08:42,729 --> 01:08:49,340

So yeah, it really tried me and well, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

: 1143

01:08:49,382 --> 01:08:51,298

And then uh

: 1144

01:08:51,298 --> 01:09:02,077

know, was a few weeks later, like three weeks later, a York friend, texted me saying, I

know a dude who's looking for somebody to work for the Lincoln Project.

: 1145

01:09:02,258 --> 01:09:04,561

you interested?

: 1146

01:09:04,986 --> 01:09:10,486

made a bunch of weird Trump remixes because I don't know, I have some sort of a sickness.

: 1147

01:09:11,606 --> 01:09:13,339

He done that so I already had work to show.

: 1148

01:09:13,339 --> 01:09:20,296

Yeah, next thing I knew I was working for the Lincoln project was supposed to be just

three months that turned into.

: 1149

01:09:20,296 --> 01:09:21,204

and a half years.

: 1150

01:09:21,204 --> 01:09:26,027

And you kind of did their rapid response funny video.

: 1151

01:09:26,027 --> 01:09:29,184

So people actually have probably seen a lot of your work with them.

: 1152

01:09:29,294 --> 01:09:31,263

Ron is the one most people have probably seen.

: 1153

01:09:31,263 --> 01:09:33,209

put it in the show notes as well.

: 1154

01:09:33,346 --> 01:09:36,865

Yeah, I did a lot of the funny videos, also some, you know, dramatic ones too.

: 1155

01:09:36,865 --> 01:09:39,942

It was a mix, especially in the few months I worked there.

: 1156

01:09:39,947 --> 01:09:46,862

the: 2020

: 1157

01:09:47,750 --> 01:09:51,070

Rapid response, means we're responding to the events of the day.

: 1158

01:09:51,070 --> 01:09:52,670

Very quick video.

: 1159

01:09:53,370 --> 01:09:57,950

Yeah, the videos would get, it's the most high profile job I've ever had, I guess.

: 1160

01:09:57,950 --> 01:10:07,390

Like, I remember the first video I did for, I finished it at like three and then I was

driving up here to Cleveland and I stopped at a rest area just to look at Twitter or

: 1161

01:10:07,390 --> 01:10:08,110

something.

: 1162

01:10:08,390 --> 01:10:10,346

And it was like,

: 1163

01:10:10,346 --> 01:10:11,946

Like, whoa, bro.

: 1164

01:10:12,986 --> 01:10:18,386

And like seven million views, it's just hard to even comprehend.

: 1165

01:10:18,706 --> 01:10:23,360

yeah, they would get on MSN, CNN, was part of that.

: 1166

01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:24,280

at the time.

: 1167

01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:29,121

Did you think that you were having a positive impact at the time?

: 1168

01:10:29,121 --> 01:10:30,183

And did you

: 1169

01:10:30,966 --> 01:10:32,867

For sure.

: 1170

01:10:32,867 --> 01:10:37,511

mean, it was a big deal then people.

: 1171

01:10:38,253 --> 01:10:39,850

For everywhere and it.

: 1172

01:10:39,850 --> 01:10:41,650

felt like yeah, I was part of like that.

: 1173

01:10:41,650 --> 01:10:47,190

I was helping right that these videos Seeing them and being like oh that Trump is a liar.

: 1174

01:10:47,190 --> 01:10:54,490

Maybe we shouldn't vote for him Yeah, that was that was the exciting time Paper because I

worked at the Lincoln project here.

: 1175

01:10:54,490 --> 01:10:59,070

There was a 60 minutes profile I wasn't in that and then there was a New Yorker.

: 1176

01:10:59,070 --> 01:11:00,774

I mean it was a big deal at the time

: 1177

01:11:00,780 --> 01:11:03,680

So that was exciting and I did feel like at the time I was.

: 1178

01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,965

not as jaded yet and then after the elections some

: 1179

01:11:07,362 --> 01:11:11,038

You some things came to light, which I won't go into in detail.

: 1180

01:11:11,038 --> 01:11:16,908

You can do the research that made me start to wonder, maybe, maybe this is a news.

: 1181

01:11:17,037 --> 01:11:22,254

I don't know what the word is, straight and narrow or something as I thought or something.

: 1182

01:11:22,254 --> 01:11:22,414

My...

: 1183

01:11:22,414 --> 01:11:27,507

See the cracks or whatever.

: 1184

01:11:27,507 --> 01:11:30,630

I was only supposed to work there for three months with I just kept getting checks.

: 1185

01:11:30,831 --> 01:11:32,878

Oh, I just kept working there.

: 1186

01:11:32,878 --> 01:11:40,256

then at one point in the like: 2021

: 1187

01:11:40,256 --> 01:11:41,328

tremendous raise.

: 1188

01:11:41,328 --> 01:11:42,989

And it was like a full time.

: 1189

01:11:43,862 --> 01:11:46,124

It's like, oh, well, this is great.

: 1190

01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,401

I can push my sir or.

: 1191

01:11:49,401 --> 01:11:51,659

about the organization to the side because

: 1192

01:11:51,702 --> 01:11:54,088

I'm going to be making a lot of money now.

: 1193

01:11:54,088 --> 01:11:57,334

So yeah, and then that went on for another.

: 1194

01:11:58,037 --> 01:11:58,858

There.

: 1195

01:11:59,178 --> 01:12:03,859

So did your feeling about producing content?

: 1196

01:12:03,859 --> 01:12:11,071

Because I was in a similar, somewhat similar boat in terms of like, I'm at a big media

company.

: 1197

01:12:11,071 --> 01:12:12,542

I think I can really make a difference.

: 1198

01:12:12,542 --> 01:12:18,093

And then at a certain point, it occurred to me that I was basically just making videos for

people that agreed with me.

: 1199

01:12:18,093 --> 01:12:23,725

And I don't know if it really helped or just entrenched people in their way of thinking.

: 1200

01:12:23,765 --> 01:12:25,545

What was your kind of journey with?

: 1201

01:12:25,545 --> 01:12:27,726

Because I know you are somewhat disillusioned by.

: 1202

01:12:27,726 --> 01:12:28,626

somewhat.

: 1203

01:12:29,126 --> 01:12:31,586

Yeah, I mean it was a 40.

: 1204

01:12:32,686 --> 01:12:33,023

Sure.

: 1205

01:12:33,023 --> 01:12:37,296

Biden won were a bit tumultuous and tumultuous, tumultuous.

: 1206

01:12:37,296 --> 01:12:46,554

Anyway, when Trump, I really did start to wonder if what we'd done was actually helpful.

: 1207

01:12:47,196 --> 01:12:52,240

Because I feel like at first it felt like the public was doing the thing that the

Republicans had done.

: 1208

01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:54,098

They played dirty, we played

: 1209

01:12:54,098 --> 01:12:55,838

cold make, you know.

: 1210

01:12:56,158 --> 01:13:08,838

pool of water that exists in: 2025

: 1211

01:13:09,398 --> 01:13:19,578

And I feel like, don't know how profoundly plausible is if the work and energy I'd put

into

: 1212

01:13:19,958 --> 01:13:22,571

sticking with this organization through all the.

: 1213

01:13:22,766 --> 01:13:25,079

um media issues.

: 1214

01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:28,673

they had was basically just like, eh no.

: 1215

01:13:28,751 --> 01:13:30,392

Do they still exist?

: 1216

01:13:30,392 --> 01:13:31,763

Yeah, there's still.

: 1217

01:13:31,763 --> 01:13:35,653

kind of in touch with a few people doing there's response anymore.

: 1218

01:13:35,653 --> 01:13:39,894

I'm not entirely sure what they're doing doing the podcast still

: 1219

01:13:40,034 --> 01:13:42,140

All right, so yeah, talk about that.

: 1220

01:13:42,210 --> 01:13:46,614

They put me on the podcast to be the editor and producer of the podcast.

: 1221

01:13:46,614 --> 01:13:48,054

I think it was early.

: 1222

01:13:48,315 --> 01:13:49,376

Yeah.

: 1223

01:13:49,376 --> 01:13:53,839

I did it or made a podcast and their podcast was pretty big.

: 1224

01:13:54,299 --> 01:13:54,870

so that was fun.

: 1225

01:13:54,870 --> 01:13:56,561

I was excited to do a different job.

: 1226

01:13:56,561 --> 01:13:57,515

I learned how to do it.

: 1227

01:13:57,515 --> 01:14:00,522

all and a lot of relevant

: 1228

01:14:00,522 --> 01:14:03,735

famous guests, know, we had one of

: 1229

01:14:03,735 --> 01:14:04,207

course.

: 1230

01:14:04,207 --> 01:14:07,234

had the guy from Sharp Bank.

: 1231

01:14:07,276 --> 01:14:08,068

What's his name?

: 1232

01:14:08,068 --> 01:14:08,499

Anyway.

: 1233

01:14:08,499 --> 01:14:10,571

uh

: 1234

01:14:10,571 --> 01:14:14,933

It was difficult because of certain personalities that I was working with.

: 1235

01:14:14,933 --> 01:14:16,103

I knew a lot about podcasts.

: 1236

01:14:16,103 --> 01:14:20,115

I liked about podcasts, so I was putting all my effort into this.

: 1237

01:14:20,115 --> 01:14:21,935

was like leaning into it.

: 1238

01:14:22,536 --> 01:14:29,088

Then I started meeting like resistance and I was just like, but it's getting more numbers

now, it's doing better.

: 1239

01:14:29,130 --> 01:14:31,480

it didn't seem to matter.

: 1240

01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:34,531

there were strong personalities involved, I suppose is what you're

: 1241

01:14:34,531 --> 01:14:36,037

would, that's what I would put it.

: 1242

01:14:36,037 --> 01:14:36,877

But.

: 1243

01:14:37,390 --> 01:14:37,970

I.

: 1244

01:14:37,970 --> 01:14:40,230

um

: 1245

01:14:40,299 --> 01:14:43,382

it gave me experience in doing podcasting and learning how it's

: 1246

01:14:44,776 --> 01:14:47,639

and I won the award because of that too.

: 1247

01:14:48,501 --> 01:14:49,982

But I did win it.

: 1248

01:14:50,063 --> 01:14:50,668

that's nice.

: 1249

01:14:50,668 --> 01:14:51,539

Yeah.

: 1250

01:14:51,662 --> 01:14:53,196

I stumbled upon a video on-

: 1251

01:14:53,196 --> 01:14:58,434

Lincoln projects YouTube of two of the leaders and my.

: 1252

01:14:58,434 --> 01:15:04,266

who now produces the podcast, doing a video about how they made the video that won the

Webby Award.

: 1253

01:15:04,266 --> 01:15:15,019

But like none of them had made it once so but yeah, it off in January

: 1254

01:15:15,019 --> 01:15:16,191

of this year.

: 1255

01:15:17,550 --> 01:15:22,690

And now talk about bringing this piece of media that we're currently talking on to life.

: 1256

01:15:22,690 --> 01:15:24,091

had this idea for this podcast.

: 1257

01:15:24,091 --> 01:15:29,015

I always had this idea of like, you know, even we recorded some episodes years ago.

: 1258

01:15:29,536 --> 01:15:35,621

And the idea was basically like, I want to get to know friends that I've met like later in

life about their whole lives.

: 1259

01:15:35,621 --> 01:15:37,042

You know, that was kind of my...

: 1260

01:15:37,543 --> 01:15:41,556

It's turned into obviously something different than that, but that was kind of the initial

gem of it.

: 1261

01:15:41,556 --> 01:15:46,069

And then my nephew, Owen, came to visit me during his spring break.

: 1262

01:15:47,171 --> 01:15:50,113

You know, he's a teenager, you know, not the most talkative kid.

: 1263

01:15:50,113 --> 01:15:51,414

We have a good time, but...

: 1264

01:15:51,630 --> 01:15:54,130

But one night I was like, do you want to record a podcast?

: 1265

01:15:54,130 --> 01:15:55,510

Because I have all this gear.

: 1266

01:15:56,810 --> 01:16:02,750

Once I got the headphones on him and the microphone in front of him, he just started

opening up in a way that he never had before.

: 1267

01:16:02,750 --> 01:16:06,430

And it was like, bing, like bulb sound.

: 1268

01:16:06,970 --> 01:16:08,818

Then I realized, yeah, there's something.

: 1269

01:16:08,818 --> 01:16:09,720

to

: 1270

01:16:10,606 --> 01:16:14,266

podcast interviews that doesn't exist in real life talking.

: 1271

01:16:14,266 --> 01:16:24,146

This experience of being forced to sit down and carry on a conversation and continue that

conversation is an interesting one and a rewarding one in my mind because like how often

: 1272

01:16:24,146 --> 01:16:29,606

do you sit down and have a long conversation with somebody that just has to keep going.

: 1273

01:16:30,326 --> 01:16:38,506

And yeah, it's been great because I realized when I started doing it, I was like, I

creative outlet quite badly because I haven't made any films for a long time.

: 1274

01:16:38,506 --> 01:16:39,508

It's been crazy rewarding.

: 1275

01:16:39,508 --> 01:16:44,906

And also on the other side of that, was a need for connection in part because of COVID and

working.

: 1276

01:16:44,906 --> 01:16:46,894

I mean, I was working alone in my house for

: 1277

01:16:46,894 --> 01:16:48,714

four and a half years for the most part.

: 1278

01:16:48,714 --> 01:16:52,314

And that, you know, fucks you up.

: 1279

01:16:53,052 --> 01:16:56,855

And so it is a kind of a side benefit from starting the podcast.

: 1280

01:16:56,855 --> 01:17:05,096

was like a way for me to like connect with people that I, some of them I knew well, some

of them I didn't know well, and have, you know, interesting conversations about their

: 1281

01:17:05,096 --> 01:17:05,702

lives.

: 1282

01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:09,451

and about what's going on now all these kind of things.

: 1283

01:17:09,451 --> 01:17:11,250

m

: 1284

01:17:11,250 --> 01:17:14,679

a little side gravy prize or whatever gravy prize.

: 1285

01:17:14,679 --> 01:17:17,816

And how has your experience been with the show so far?

: 1286

01:17:17,816 --> 01:17:21,294

mean, you know, how has it evolved and what are you know?

: 1287

01:17:21,294 --> 01:17:23,488

How do you see it continuing to evolve?

: 1288

01:17:24,126 --> 01:17:25,867

I believe in this podcast.

: 1289

01:17:25,867 --> 01:17:28,147

I think that it has potential.

: 1290

01:17:28,147 --> 01:17:40,471

I think that the biggest struggle that I've had is in defining in terms that don't sound

like every podcast because really ultimately most of the has been conversation, which is

: 1291

01:17:40,471 --> 01:17:43,072

what 90 % of podcasts are, right?

: 1292

01:17:43,912 --> 01:17:45,203

How do I distinguish myself?

: 1293

01:17:45,203 --> 01:17:46,513

I guess that's the question.

: 1294

01:17:46,513 --> 01:17:49,134

Yeah, just going with what feels

: 1295

01:17:49,438 --> 01:17:51,723

right and that is cool.

: 1296

01:17:51,986 --> 01:17:53,087

Let's just.

: 1297

01:17:54,273 --> 01:17:55,193

Thanks.

: 1298

01:17:55,640 --> 01:18:11,047

How do you navigate the like the psychology of being a creative person in a world where

there's not like a national endowment for the arts that pays creatives to just sit around

: 1299

01:18:11,047 --> 01:18:12,608

and be creative all day?

: 1300

01:18:14,217 --> 01:18:15,093

well.

: 1301

01:18:16,398 --> 01:18:17,829

You

: 1302

01:18:18,176 --> 01:18:21,229

That was a rhetorical, somewhat rhetorical question.

: 1303

01:18:21,229 --> 01:18:22,156

knew the answer to.

: 1304

01:18:22,156 --> 01:18:30,250

Well, mean, now it's overwhelming and it's like, uh

: 1305

01:18:30,250 --> 01:18:35,192

or something, don't know, somebody had this metaphor of like just a river of content

floating by.

: 1306

01:18:36,426 --> 01:18:42,336

It feels somewhat futile to even throw things in there, to continue the metaphor.

: 1307

01:18:43,557 --> 01:18:49,400

You know, I realized in Adults, because Adults was, you know, a fun shoot, but also a

difficult shoot for me.

: 1308

01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:52,728

And it didn't do nearly as well as we expecting or hoping.

: 1309

01:18:52,728 --> 01:18:53,270

would do.

: 1310

01:18:53,270 --> 01:19:01,960

And I think I went into that project with a lot of expectation while it would do, because

I really did think it was good and had a potential.

: 1311

01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:07,078

But I realized in the aftermath, I needed to be doing this for the joy.

: 1312

01:19:07,078 --> 01:19:08,539

of the

: 1313

01:19:09,580 --> 01:19:12,458

whatever came out of it would be, should be.

: 1314

01:19:14,286 --> 01:19:18,670

So in the sense of this podcast, I have been enjoying doing it.

: 1315

01:19:18,670 --> 01:19:27,587

Like I don't want to make it seem like I'm doing the podcast to make myself feel better,

but like just this creative process, this learning how to talk to people and get to know

: 1316

01:19:27,587 --> 01:19:36,825

people and learning about people has really been rewarding in ways that I didn't

necessarily think, didn't expect going into this, you know.

: 1317

01:19:36,825 --> 01:19:43,832

And the amount of people who have reached out just out of the blue to just tell me that

they get friends that I haven't talked to in a long time.

: 1318

01:19:43,832 --> 01:19:47,467

telling me they listen to the whole thing on their road trip, whatever the road trip

episode.

: 1319

01:19:47,508 --> 01:19:56,622

You know, it's very touching and very like, um I think that she's gotten to know me better

just because she listens to me talk about things that I never talk about with her.

: 1320

01:19:56,774 --> 01:19:57,661

you know?

: 1321

01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:02,328

So yeah, it's been a multi-tiered positive thing.

: 1322

01:20:02,328 --> 01:20:08,402

for me and make a living from doing it.

: 1323

01:20:08,822 --> 01:20:09,785

And I think I can.

: 1324

01:20:09,785 --> 01:20:11,710

think there's potential here, as I said.

: 1325

01:20:11,710 --> 01:20:12,842

just don't know.

: 1326

01:20:13,698 --> 01:20:15,727

But then again, maybe I'm just deluding myself.

: 1327

01:20:15,727 --> 01:20:18,488

I don't know, because there's so many podcasts out there and I'm like, what makes me

special?

: 1328

01:20:18,488 --> 01:20:19,719

I don't fucking know.

: 1329

01:20:20,364 --> 01:20:25,358

Well, I think you have to delude yourself to get anywhere in this world anyway.

: 1330

01:20:25,358 --> 01:20:26,299

Sure.

: 1331

01:20:26,299 --> 01:20:37,759

So for people who are out there listening, who are, you know, aspiring either in the

creative field and they have been faced with this kind of dark night of the soul, either

: 1332

01:20:37,759 --> 01:20:48,908

being laid off or a project not going as well as they thought or whatever, what is your

advice to them uh to kind of persevere if that is your advice?

: 1333

01:20:50,104 --> 01:20:52,646

Give up, um

: 1334

01:20:53,014 --> 01:20:53,656

I mean

: 1335

01:20:53,656 --> 01:21:02,432

think with the creative industry, I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but it seems like the

people with the least amount of talent are the ones that are the most persistent and good

: 1336

01:21:02,432 --> 01:21:04,574

at getting themselves seen.

: 1337

01:21:04,574 --> 01:21:15,001

And the people who do actually do good work are the ones that are erotic and not

self-assured, and they don't get their work out there because they don't have confidence

: 1338

01:21:15,001 --> 01:21:16,021

in it.

: 1339

01:21:16,602 --> 01:21:23,406

To answer the question though, I would say, if you're really a creative, I would say, I

guess you just gotta keep doing it.

: 1340

01:21:23,406 --> 01:21:24,406

But again, like.

: 1341

01:21:24,406 --> 01:21:28,949

I'm so cynical about the whole film, particularly industry at this point.

: 1342

01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:35,795

don't know that I would advise people to go into film unless they have a trust fund of

some sort.

: 1343

01:21:36,035 --> 01:21:41,259

It's difficult, particularly when you know, you make something personal project that

doesn't do as well as you.

: 1344

01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:45,823

And again, that brings me back to like the finding the joy in the work itself.

: 1345

01:21:45,823 --> 01:21:50,746

The money part is a whole nother part of the equation, which is the tricky part.

: 1346

01:21:50,787 --> 01:21:52,828

You need to make, you need to live.

: 1347

01:21:53,089 --> 01:21:54,550

Our country doesn't help.

: 1348

01:21:54,900 --> 01:21:57,218

So, I don't know.

: 1349

01:21:57,654 --> 01:22:00,276

Advice giving may not be your strong suit.

: 1350

01:22:01,497 --> 01:22:02,998

Very discouraging.

: 1351

01:22:04,119 --> 01:22:05,480

I mean, I wouldn't cut it out.

: 1352

01:22:05,480 --> 01:22:17,765

It's honest, but it's uh just hearing that dark uh prognostication or advice makes me want

to launch into my own advice, but this is not my podcast.

: 1353

01:22:17,765 --> 01:22:17,986

I.

: 1354

01:22:17,986 --> 01:22:19,457

think it's that dark to be honest.

: 1355

01:22:19,457 --> 01:22:22,448

I don't think that finding joy in the work itself is dark.

: 1356

01:22:22,448 --> 01:22:23,789

There's two separate things here.

: 1357

01:22:23,789 --> 01:22:30,311

We're talking about career as a filmmaker, which I would say I wanted to be a film editor.

: 1358

01:22:30,311 --> 01:22:33,033

That's a very, very difficult field to get into.

: 1359

01:22:33,033 --> 01:22:33,763

Or maybe it isn't.

: 1360

01:22:33,763 --> 01:22:35,713

Maybe I just didn't go down the right path.

: 1361

01:22:35,934 --> 01:22:42,797

But what I ended up editing most of in New York was a lot of like branded content, promos,

things like that.

: 1362

01:22:42,797 --> 01:22:45,918

Because those are the things that, know, pay the bills.

: 1363

01:22:46,961 --> 01:22:47,236

in

: 1364

01:22:47,236 --> 01:22:56,277

can find joy in that, it's Realize that that might be the job that you end up getting is

editing content that you don't really care about because you need a paycheck.

: 1365

01:22:56,378 --> 01:22:57,138

Right.

: 1366

01:22:57,676 --> 01:23:10,822

Yeah, look, mean, I think it's good to hear dark advice because if someone perseveres in

spite of having heard um how horrible and dark it is, then they're probably meant to do

: 1367

01:23:10,822 --> 01:23:11,422

it.

: 1368

01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:12,531

for sure.

: 1369

01:23:12,531 --> 01:23:13,553

But I'm a bad example.

: 1370

01:23:13,553 --> 01:23:22,147

You're a much, you're in my mind a successful person who has navigated the industry quite

well and seems to be doing quite well.

: 1371

01:23:22,147 --> 01:23:27,174

Being able to choose projects and so forth, which I am always admiration.

: 1372

01:23:28,578 --> 01:23:39,011

Well, you know, it's like one thing that I will reflect this having looked as I witnessed

your career and your creative output, even though you don't relate to yourself as being

: 1373

01:23:39,011 --> 01:23:52,945

successful, I would say that you are a very successful filmmaker and that's a filmmaker

and creative professional as well, because you've had multiple high level, high visibility

: 1374

01:23:52,985 --> 01:23:53,795

paying jobs.

: 1375

01:23:53,795 --> 01:23:56,756

And you've also had like pretty much

: 1376

01:23:57,130 --> 01:24:04,826

nearest to the pinnacle of creative success that one can get, is admission into Sundance.

: 1377

01:24:04,826 --> 01:24:15,583

So I think one thing to take away, kids that are listening to this, is that you can

literally get to the very, very top of the mountain and still, if you're not at the very,

: 1378

01:24:15,583 --> 01:24:17,805

very peak, you can feel like you completely failed.

: 1379

01:24:17,805 --> 01:24:19,608

So have some perspective, I'd say.

: 1380

01:24:19,608 --> 01:24:20,686

Well that's hard,

: 1381

01:24:20,686 --> 01:24:23,806

It's also the bar keeps going up in every in everything.

: 1382

01:24:23,806 --> 01:24:24,604

I mean, I think that

: 1383

01:24:24,604 --> 01:24:25,477

does it.

: 1384

01:24:25,477 --> 01:24:29,710

Like there's never if you could have four shows on TV right now and you'd still be

depressed.

: 1385

01:24:29,710 --> 01:24:33,150

Yeah, or you can have $10 billion and you want $20 billion.

: 1386

01:24:33,211 --> 01:24:36,430

Yeah, that's not, there's no, uh, there's no end

: 1387

01:24:36,430 --> 01:24:45,950

But I think that's more of like trying to fill the hole in your soul with success or with

something you need to actually find in yourself.

: 1388

01:24:45,950 --> 01:24:49,199

But that's a soteric idea that I don't know.

: 1389

01:24:49,199 --> 01:24:49,766

on that.

: 1390

01:24:49,766 --> 01:24:51,682

I think that would be good advice.

: 1391

01:24:51,682 --> 01:24:52,022

Yeah

: 1392

01:24:52,022 --> 01:24:55,548

and also it's hard to see the label when you're inside the jar.

: 1393

01:24:56,612 --> 01:24:57,573

Fill the soul hole.

: 1394

01:24:57,573 --> 01:24:59,227

That's not, I think that's going to catch on.

: 1395

01:24:59,227 --> 01:25:01,480

I think that was actually a porn movie.

: 1396

01:25:02,456 --> 01:25:03,354

So yeah.

: 1397

01:25:03,502 --> 01:25:05,602

Yeah, parts one through five.

: 1398

01:25:05,656 --> 01:25:06,457

That was like a 70s.

: 1399

01:25:06,457 --> 01:25:10,191

Yeah, that's really good.

: 1400

01:25:10,233 --> 01:25:14,718

What brings you the most joy in this world at the present time?

: 1401

01:25:14,910 --> 01:25:20,628

You'd think that I would have thought of an answer for this question because I ask it all

the time.

: 1402

01:25:20,628 --> 01:25:21,490

and

: 1403

01:25:23,030 --> 01:25:26,236

It's a hard one, I would say, on the small level.

: 1404

01:25:27,540 --> 01:25:28,802

Brings me joy.

: 1405

01:25:29,962 --> 01:25:32,166

a bigger level.

: 1406

01:25:32,182 --> 01:25:34,342

you know, hearing from people.

: 1407

01:25:34,482 --> 01:25:43,922

I don't want to bring it back to the podcast, but really, you know, I hear from people, as

I said, and how they love it.

: 1408

01:25:43,922 --> 01:25:48,241

It them rethink how they're interacting with people and all these different things.

: 1409

01:25:48,482 --> 01:25:57,806

it brings me joy just getting like, it's, you know, people giving me praise, but not just

praise, it's praise that's combined with like a connection.

: 1410

01:25:57,806 --> 01:26:04,230

You know, second just made a movie right and I'm like a movie about let's say dogs that go

right just for example.

: 1411

01:26:04,396 --> 01:26:07,062

I don't know why, but that's just what I thought of.

: 1412

01:26:07,062 --> 01:26:08,792

people will be like, I love.

: 1413

01:26:08,792 --> 01:26:10,414

dog outer space movie.

: 1414

01:26:10,414 --> 01:26:11,834

And that's it.

: 1415

01:26:12,094 --> 01:26:21,034

It's different, it feels meaningful because I am connecting with, the podcast has enabled

me to reconnect with old friends, which it's all just magic, right?

: 1416

01:26:21,254 --> 01:26:30,314

On a level that it's been able to bring old friends back to me and also this other level

of, you know, my mom listening to it, all these things.

: 1417

01:26:30,334 --> 01:26:33,454

And that has brought me other things.

: 1418

01:26:34,474 --> 01:26:36,374

Delicious food, traveling.

: 1419

01:26:36,374 --> 01:26:39,558

This year has been a year of, frankly, like,

: 1420

01:26:39,704 --> 01:26:41,495

finding my joy.

: 1421

01:26:41,495 --> 01:26:52,009

: 2025

years of my life because I think at some point in the year I was just kind of like, I'm

: 1422

01:26:52,009 --> 01:26:56,281

just going to do the things that I've wanted to do for a while and then I'll find a job

later.

: 1423

01:26:56,461 --> 01:26:58,434

So yeah, I I traveled a ton this year.

: 1424

01:26:58,434 --> 01:26:59,632

I met a ton of people.

: 1425

01:26:59,632 --> 01:27:02,743

I've done a lot of thinking about myself.

: 1426

01:27:03,504 --> 01:27:09,356

And I think it's a combination of factors, but I've never felt so much myself.

: 1427

01:27:09,742 --> 01:27:11,421

I guess would be a good way of putting it.

: 1428

01:27:11,421 --> 01:27:13,816

I have in my whole life than I have like this year.

: 1429

01:27:13,816 --> 01:27:20,217

I feel like I'm finally understanding myself and actually starting to accept myself and my

flaws and all these kind of things.

: 1430

01:27:20,492 --> 01:27:23,093

Yeah, that has brought me joy.

: 1431

01:27:23,116 --> 01:27:34,631

Well, yeah, I think it's great to, you know, take the mini vacation, the mini retirements

along the way, you know, and maybe not everyone has that luxury, but I think a lot more

: 1432

01:27:34,631 --> 01:27:38,593

people have the luxury than think they do.

: 1433

01:27:38,593 --> 01:27:46,576

I think a lot of people get stuck in this mindset that like, if you get off the

merry-go-round, you're never going to be able to get back on.

: 1434

01:27:46,576 --> 01:27:49,137

And it's just not the case.

: 1435

01:27:49,137 --> 01:27:51,268

like life is too fucking short, man.

: 1436

01:27:51,268 --> 01:27:51,478

Right.

: 1437

01:27:51,478 --> 01:27:51,756

Yeah.

: 1438

01:27:51,756 --> 01:27:54,429

met so many people on my road trip who were like, I wish I could do that.

: 1439

01:27:54,429 --> 01:27:58,253

And some of them certainly couldn't, but some of them I'm thinking like, you could do

this.

: 1440

01:27:58,253 --> 01:27:59,319

You could.

: 1441

01:27:59,319 --> 01:28:04,458

Yeah, it takes a lot of trust, but it's also like we're all just gonna be dead at the end

of the day.

: 1442

01:28:04,458 --> 01:28:05,558

Absolutely

: 1443

01:28:05,815 --> 01:28:08,156

Only live once as the kid

: 1444

01:28:08,790 --> 01:28:10,273

Yeah.

: 1445

01:28:10,273 --> 01:28:18,540

So let's end this episode the way that you end all of your episodes, which is most of

them.

: 1446

01:28:18,540 --> 01:28:19,562

Yeah.

: 1447

01:28:19,562 --> 01:28:19,943

OK.

: 1448

01:28:19,943 --> 01:28:20,290

Well.

: 1449

01:28:20,290 --> 01:28:23,672

I haven't done it in every single one, but I'd say 90%.

: 1450

01:28:23,672 --> 01:28:32,748

Jef, I'd like to end this episode with the question that you almost always ask at the end

of your interview episodes.

: 1451

01:28:32,748 --> 01:28:37,030

And that is, what do you think happens when we die?

: 1452

01:28:38,284 --> 01:28:53,040

I don't know, but I will say as a result of me asking that question in so many episodes,

that has opened up my mind to the possibilities that never really can.

: 1453

01:28:53,300 --> 01:28:57,312

And the interesting part is that everybody has a different answer to this question.

: 1454

01:28:57,312 --> 01:29:00,483

Like there's no two people who are just like this.

: 1455

01:29:00,723 --> 01:29:03,765

Everybody's got a different version of something.

: 1456

01:29:03,765 --> 01:29:07,646

And it's all fascinating because, you know, to me, this is like,

: 1457

01:29:07,682 --> 01:29:11,303

one of the most interesting questions we can ask ourselves as conscious.

: 1458

01:29:12,623 --> 01:29:23,006

I would like to believe the older I get and the more and the more the scientists learn,

the more I begin to believe that this is not all that there is.

: 1459

01:29:23,307 --> 01:29:31,769

Perhaps it's because I'm getting a little closer to the uh end of the rainbow or whatever,

you know, metaphor you'd like to use.

: 1460

01:29:31,929 --> 01:29:35,270

Or perhaps it's just because I've

: 1461

01:29:35,576 --> 01:29:42,260

done more work, done psychedelics more often and done these things that do show you a

glimpse.

: 1462

01:29:42,260 --> 01:29:45,192

of the

: 1463

01:29:45,311 --> 01:29:56,402

that there's more going on than we are aware of which of course there is but I Guess

metaphysical sense in the sense that consciousness may continue in the sense of you know,

: 1464

01:29:56,402 --> 01:30:09,184

maybe we are reincarnated who knows But I am a logical person so it's difficult for me to

fully embrace any of ideas because logic tells me that we

: 1465

01:30:09,521 --> 01:30:12,982

die and we get even more forms.

: 1466

01:30:13,542 --> 01:30:17,802

My heart tells me that that can't be it.

: 1467

01:30:18,562 --> 01:30:22,742

I remember when I was the my father, was father a few ago.

: 1468

01:30:22,977 --> 01:30:27,621

We were thinking, you know, they burned his ashes and they burned.

: 1469

01:30:27,621 --> 01:30:28,334

That went so

: 1470

01:30:28,334 --> 01:30:29,998

right

: 1471

01:30:30,392 --> 01:30:30,993

Where did it go?

: 1472

01:30:30,993 --> 01:30:33,225

Went into the sky, into smoke?

: 1473

01:30:33,387 --> 01:30:35,890

It went somewhere because energy is a constant, right?

: 1474

01:30:35,890 --> 01:30:40,496

So it just became part of this constant ball of energy.

: 1475

01:30:40,737 --> 01:30:42,560

exists, right?

: 1476

01:30:42,926 --> 01:30:46,806

I his energy is just going somewhere else.

: 1477

01:30:46,806 --> 01:30:49,426

It was just his energy turning into another form.

: 1478

01:30:49,426 --> 01:30:51,446

And maybe it had happened at the moment of death.

: 1479

01:30:51,446 --> 01:30:53,346

Maybe it didn't happen when they burned him.

: 1480

01:30:53,346 --> 01:30:54,606

Who knows?

: 1481

01:30:55,626 --> 01:30:56,666

We think, you know?

: 1482

01:30:56,666 --> 01:30:58,146

I mean, there's a lot of things that make me think.

: 1483

01:30:58,146 --> 01:31:05,106

I mean, knowing you and your journey on this path has also opened my mind to a lot of

other possibilities.

: 1484

01:31:05,106 --> 01:31:06,506

And it's all very interesting.

: 1485

01:31:06,506 --> 01:31:12,652

And it's much more interesting to think about things like that than it is just to think

that we just died and get buried.

: 1486

01:31:12,652 --> 01:31:14,657

you know, and then that's it, because that terrifies me.

: 1487

01:31:14,657 --> 01:31:16,190

I used to lie awake at night.

: 1488

01:31:16,281 --> 01:31:19,590

When I was younger, things were

: 1489

01:31:19,749 --> 01:31:22,278

is all we've got this period and then we're just going.

: 1490

01:31:22,540 --> 01:31:24,423

and it would like keep me up at night.

: 1491

01:31:25,006 --> 01:31:29,052

That was young, this was when I was like a teenager, think, I it was crazy.

: 1492

01:31:29,234 --> 01:31:34,064

You'd think I would do that more now than I did then, but no, I guess I'm more comfortable

with the idea.

: 1493

01:31:34,064 --> 01:31:35,918

to get it out of the way, Young.

: 1494

01:31:35,918 --> 01:31:36,721

Yeah.

: 1495

01:31:36,940 --> 01:31:41,258

And I think I'm just more comfortable with the idea because, you know, life is a long

road.

: 1496

01:31:41,454 --> 01:31:43,258

And I don't

: 1497

01:31:43,258 --> 01:31:55,533

I think there'll be a certain point where I'll be like this whatever human form that I've

been in this meat sack if you will I'm a little tired of let's see what's next you know I

: 1498

01:31:55,533 --> 01:31:56,714

hope that that's where

: 1499

01:31:56,782 --> 01:31:57,619

the end.

: 1500

01:31:58,648 --> 01:32:04,997

Jef Taylor, filmmaker, podcast host, iconoclast, and my good friend.

: 1501

01:32:04,997 --> 01:32:07,549

Thank you for being on the podcast.

: 1502

01:32:07,598 --> 01:32:10,522

uh Christopher Casey, I love you dearly.

: 1503

01:32:10,923 --> 01:32:15,850

I am very appreciative that you were willing to interview me for this.

: 1504

01:32:16,432 --> 01:32:20,778

You know, I did some research and put some time into preparing for it because I...

: 1505

01:32:20,778 --> 01:32:23,912

uh people that would do that.

: 1506

01:32:24,268 --> 01:32:26,444

It was fun to revisit your Uber.

: 1507

01:32:26,444 --> 01:32:28,622

Right, I this is what the podcast has always been about.

: 1508

01:32:28,622 --> 01:32:33,657

It's like, now you know me better than you did before we recorded this.

: 1509

01:32:33,784 --> 01:32:34,575

true.

: 1510

01:32:37,506 --> 01:32:38,811

There you have it, there you have it.

: 1511

01:32:38,811 --> 01:32:41,557

I think there's many places I can sign off.

: 1512

01:32:42,262 --> 01:32:44,106

Yeah, end the episode, so there's...

: 1513

01:32:44,843 --> 01:32:45,846

over and over and over.

: 1514

01:32:45,846 --> 01:32:46,350

out.

: 1515

01:32:46,350 --> 01:32:49,053

Maybe I'll just let this drag out through the thing.

: 1516

01:32:49,053 --> 01:32:52,757

Just post episode banter.

: 1517

01:32:54,510 --> 01:32:55,714

for maybe an hour.

: 1518

01:33:02,572 --> 01:33:04,263

And that was me.

: 1519

01:33:05,243 --> 01:33:06,294

But here I still am.

: 1520

01:33:06,294 --> 01:33:08,604

Hmm.

: 1521

01:33:09,505 --> 01:33:12,547

Thank you again to Chris for taking over the hosting duties.

: 1522

01:33:12,547 --> 01:33:14,427

went above and beyond.

: 1523

01:33:14,427 --> 01:33:16,288

And I truly appreciate it.

: 1524

01:33:16,909 --> 01:33:19,990

This show is largely spreading through word of mouth.

: 1525

01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:24,592

So if you yourself have a mouth, please tell someone else about it.

: 1526

01:33:24,592 --> 01:33:26,793

Not about your mouth, but about the show.

: 1527

01:33:26,973 --> 01:33:29,254

So it can continue to spread.

: 1528

01:33:29,730 --> 01:33:37,002

And if you haven't already, please subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on

because that tells the mighty algorithms that this show is one to spread.

: 1529

01:33:37,002 --> 01:33:47,975

There are links to all the films we talk about in the episode in the show notes, or you

can just go to onefjef.com and see everything, almost everything.

: 1530

01:33:48,695 --> 01:33:56,397

And as I said, I will post some visual aids to supplement this episode on the Patreon page

at patreon.com/onefjef.

: 1531

01:33:56,537 --> 01:33:59,878

So if you'd like to see those, sign up.

: 1532

01:34:00,546 --> 01:34:01,897

better than silver.

: 1533

01:34:03,750 --> 01:34:07,511

I gratitude a lot on this show.

: 1534

01:34:07,712 --> 01:34:14,355

Perhaps too much, although I'm not sure there's such a thing as too much gratitude,

particularly if it's sincere.

: 1535

01:34:14,635 --> 01:34:21,938

But I am sincerely grateful to you for giving me however much of your time and attention

you've given over these past 25 episodes.

: 1536

01:34:21,938 --> 01:34:23,619

It really means a lot to me.

: 1537

01:34:23,799 --> 01:34:26,760

And I hope you'll continue to tune in for the next 25.

: 1538

01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:30,702

I'll leave you with another quote from Roomie.

: 1539

01:34:31,138 --> 01:34:34,940

that captures the essence of these last 25 episodes.

: 1540

01:34:36,001 --> 01:34:40,484

End of my year of: 2025

: 1541

01:34:41,645 --> 01:34:43,746

Your heart knows the way.

: 1542

01:34:44,807 --> 01:34:46,728

Run in that direction.

: 1543

01:34:48,109 --> 01:34:49,390

I'll see you soon.

: 1544

01:34:51,170 --> 01:34:52,936

Very good, Jefrey.

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