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Why Nat King Cole and Donny Hathaway Dominate Christmas Playlists
Episode 169 • 24th December 2024 • Queue Points • Queue Points LLC
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In this festive episode of Queue Points, DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray drop the needle on two holiday classics that continue to define Christmas for Black America—Nat King Cole's "The Christmas Song" and Donny Hathaway's "This Christmas." Why do these songs still hold a chokehold on our holiday playlists decades after their release? The duo dives into the rich history behind these tracks, exploring their cultural impact, the personal memories they evoke, and why covers of these songs often fall short of the originals. From the classy charm of Nat King Cole to the soulful groove of Donny Hathaway, this episode celebrates Black musical excellence and holiday traditions that span generations. Tune in, get cozy, and reflect on the songs that make the season bright!

#NatKingCole #DonnyHathaway #TheChristmasSong #ThisChristmas #BlackMusicHistory

Chapters

00:00 Intro Theme

00:16 Welcome to Queue Points Podcast

00:58 Holiday Music: Love or Hate?

02:14 The Magic of Classic Christmas Songs

03:34 The History Behind 'The Christmas Song'

07:06 The Story of 'This Christmas'

10:39 The Legacy and Impact of These Songs

13:32 Personal Holiday Memories

17:15 The Debate on Cover Songs

20:23 Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts

22:02 Closing Theme

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Transcripts

Speaker:

DJ Sir Daniel: and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

Speaker:

I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray:

And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government

Jay Ray:

as Johnnie Ray Kornegay the third and Sir Daniel time flies.

Jay Ray:

We are back in the holiday season, the holiday spirit, sir.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely.

Jay Ray:

It's that time of year.

Jay Ray:

Go ahead and double fist that hot cup of cocoa that you have right now.

Jay Ray:

And just cozy on up to another episode of Queue Points podcast because Jay

Jay Ray:

Ray after years, and I do mean years, like especially for me after years of

Jay Ray:

experiencing the holidays and You know, all the stuff that comes along with it.

Jay Ray:

Does Christmas music still give you, you know, the warm fuzzies?

Jay Ray:

And does it, you know, make you feel holly and jolly still?

Jay Ray:

Cause I'm trying to think, does that still do it for me?

Jay Ray:

How about you?

Jay Ray:

So the short answer to your question is yes, but I feel like I

Jay Ray:

need to explain for because I was too cool for school for like a long

Jay Ray:

time, I would say things like, I'm not really into holiday music, right?

Jay Ray:

That was a lie.

Jay Ray:

think what think what soured me to holiday music is as a person who

Jay Ray:

worked in retail for many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Talk about it.

Jay Ray:

In November, actually it was, so back then it was like November,

Jay Ray:

like you could time it, one, all of a sudden the dang Beatles started playing

Jay Ray:

and would hear holiday music all day.

Jay Ray:

ad nauseum an entire month, uh, the entire two months.

Jay Ray:

So it was like November to December.

Jay Ray:

so I think I internalized that experience with, I don't like holiday music.

Jay Ray:

I do like holiday music and it does still give me the warm and fuzzies.

Jay Ray:

But I think what's interesting about it, Sir Daniel is I

Jay Ray:

still like the classics, man.

Jay Ray:

The classics still do it for me.

Jay Ray:

I can listen to them classics every day, all the time.

Jay Ray:

Don't matter.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: had a chokehold specifically on the black community

Jay Ray:

since they dropped, um, last century, cause it's been, it's been a whole

Jay Ray:

nother century since these songs dropped, but they've been recycled.

Jay Ray:

They've been covered.

Jay Ray:

They've been, you know, fizzed up for new generations.

Jay Ray:

The originals still hold, hold a magic over us the years.

Jay Ray:

And I'm talking about, of course, the Christmas song by Nat King Cole and

Jay Ray:

this Christmas by Donnie Hathaway.

Jay Ray:

And Jay Ray, since, uh, well, what is that hold that it has

Jay Ray:

over us in the black community?

Jay Ray:

Those two songs in particular, I have my, I have some theories around it, but

Jay Ray:

you know, and you know me, I'm a, I guess I'm a theorist over here on Queue Points,

Jay Ray:

but I want to hear, you know, your take on why these two songs in particular

Jay Ray:

kind of have a choke hold on us.

Jay Ray:

Hmm.

Jay Ray:

That is a really interesting question.

Jay Ray:

So what's interesting about the Christmas song?

Jay Ray:

First and foremost, it was written by Robert Wells and Mel Tormé.

Jay Ray:

Um, but of course, made famous by Nat King Cole.

Jay Ray:

Um, and I think that song has a chokehold on our community because one, it was,

Jay Ray:

um, It was a song by a black artist released at a time when black artists

Jay Ray:

didn't have like the cachet and like the general pop community at the time.

Jay Ray:

So, Nat King Cole, I think, represented the possibility

Jay Ray:

of the American dream, right?

Jay Ray:

And so black people were like, this.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: give me that.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Give me more of that, please.

Jay Ray:

And also, it's well sung, and it's a beautiful song.

Jay Ray:

And they did their big one on that.

Jay Ray:

So that's, for the Christmas song, I think it's that.

Jay Ray:

For this Christmas, I think this Christmas is just like a

Jay Ray:

quintessentially black Christmas song.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

And I think that's why it has a chokehold on the black community.

Jay Ray:

And it's also a groove.

Jay Ray:

I mean, who can't did it, it did it, did it, did it.

Jay Ray:

It's got all the stuff that black folks want in that song.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

I think that's why those two songs have a chokehold.

Jay Ray:

What are you, what is your theory?

Jay Ray:

What is your

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: So I'm gonna hold my theory just a little bit because You um,

Jay Ray:

you brought up a couple things regarding both songs, but preparing for this

Jay Ray:

episode, Jay Ray, you and I discovered some things regarding these records

Jay Ray:

that I don't think a lot of people know.

Jay Ray:

And that's what key points is here for.

Jay Ray:

Um, both songs are synonymous with the holidays, but we discovered that

Jay Ray:

they were not immediate hit records.

Jay Ray:

Not at all.

Jay Ray:

So a couple of quick history notes for the Christmas song.

Jay Ray:

So the Christmas song was, um, first recorded, which might surprise people.

Jay Ray:

It was first recorded in 1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.

Jay Ray:

It was written in 45, recorded in 1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.

Jay Ray:

And actually, the Christmas song has Four distinct recordings.

Jay Ray:

So the first recording happened at WMCA Studios in 1946, as we mentioned.

Jay Ray:

There was another recording at Studios in, um, so one was recorded in June,

Jay Ray:

one, one was recorded in August of 46.

Jay Ray:

The second recording there included the Nat King Cole trio and a choir.

Jay Ray:

they were like

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.

Jay Ray:

fourth, recording of the song, which was actually recorded in 1961.

Jay Ray:

In the studio at Capitol Studios.

Jay Ray:

And that is the one that we're most familiar with.

Jay Ray:

It's Nat King Cole.

Jay Ray:

It wasn't even the Nat King Cole trio then.

Jay Ray:

It was just Nat King Cole, the band, the, the, the orchestra, et cetera.

Jay Ray:

Interesting tidbit about the Christmas song is there actually are four

Jay Ray:

different recordings of that song that all kind of have their own feel.

Jay Ray:

We are the most familiar with the last, so that's that on that one.

Jay Ray:

This Christmas, of course, written by one Donnie Hathaway, who is credited

Jay Ray:

as Donnie Pitts, uh, for this song and co written by Nadine Teresa McKenner.

Jay Ray:

Now Nadine is really important to this song because the

Jay Ray:

song really starts with her.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Right.

Jay Ray:

She's working in, um, as the story goes, she

Jay Ray:

was working in the post office

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

Nat King Cole in her head.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: So through line.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

through line.

Jay Ray:

So she's in there thinking about Nat King Cole and she's humming along this

Jay Ray:

Christmas, da, da, da, Nat King Cole.

Jay Ray:

We're doing a whole thing, trying to get herself through the day.

Jay Ray:

And here comes the opportunity.

Jay Ray:

And that's 1967, by the

Jay Ray:

they wrote the song initially,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: I think that's very important.

Jay Ray:

That is really important, right?

Jay Ray:

So this is, what, six years after the most famous version of Nat King Cole's song.

Jay Ray:

So that's still a contemporary song by the time they record this Christmas.

Jay Ray:

Donny Hathaway's, uh, uh, to this song is that Donny Hathaway

Jay Ray:

wanted a quintessentially black Christmas song, right?

Jay Ray:

And, um, by 1970, they record this song And Sir Daniel, we learned this.

Jay Ray:

We were both surprised by this.

Jay Ray:

this Christmas was not a hit when it dropped.

Jay Ray:

Like, this

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: paid it

Jay Ray:

y'all paid this Christmas dust.

Jay Ray:

This Christmas did not become a hit song until after Mr.

Jay Ray:

Hathaway's death.

Jay Ray:

This Christmas was just like, It languished for

Jay Ray:

years before becoming a hit.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: And the thing about that with very popular songs, um, that

Jay Ray:

sometimes really great songs essence, sometimes they don't automatically

Jay Ray:

become a commercial success.

Jay Ray:

Mm

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: They're like crock pots.

Jay Ray:

And I think a lot of producers and musicians back then wrote songs

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: for the crock pot generation.

Jay Ray:

Meaning that they were, they were allowed, yeah, those songs were allowed to simmer,

Jay Ray:

to stew, to, to, to, to double up on the flavor and really get ingrained.

Jay Ray:

And then they have this longevity that goes on for years, so much so

Jay Ray:

that in doing research for this, um, topic, I discovered that there

Jay Ray:

are like 80 covers and counting.

Jay Ray:

Of the Donny Hathaway classic this Christmas, 80 covers and counting.

Jay Ray:

Cause I'm sure I'm certain when y'all is out there cooking up a remix right

Jay Ray:

now that we may not need, but go ahead, do your thing, do your big one.

Jay Ray:

it in the mix.

Jay Ray:

You see what happens.

Jay Ray:

Maybe it'll become a hit for you.

Jay Ray:

But yes, there's like 80 plus covers of this Christmas.

Jay Ray:

There are approximately 1, 709 covers of the Nat King Cole

Jay Ray:

classic, the Christmas song.

Jay Ray:

That's

Jay Ray:

makes

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: industry is all about collecting dollars.

Jay Ray:

And sometimes if it ain't broke, fix it.

Jay Ray:

do, you know, don't recreate, you don't have to recreate the wheel, just do what

Jay Ray:

works and give the people what they want.

Jay Ray:

So we come to the end of, um, as we get ready to wrap up on this episode,

Jay Ray:

I kind of want to go back to what I was asking you in regards to why these

Jay Ray:

songs have such a chokehold on us, specifically in the black community.

Jay Ray:

you hit the nail on the head.

Jay Ray:

Silence.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: this Christmas reflect two distinct eras in black America's history.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: of the things that affected black Americans deeply in the

Jay Ray:

Jim Crow era, the post civil war era, the, you know, right up until the civil

Jay Ray:

rights movement, there's this, like you said earlier, this need to feel Um,

Jay Ray:

like you're entitled to the American dream and whatever that looks like.

Jay Ray:

Well, back then it looked like class.

Jay Ray:

It looked like pearls.

Jay Ray:

It looked like, you know, a starched suit and, you know,

Jay Ray:

mom with her pin curls and 2.

Jay Ray:

5, 2.

Jay Ray:

5 kids and a dog.

Jay Ray:

All of those things that we were told is the American dream.

Jay Ray:

I don't know that this is something that they just kept telling

Jay Ray:

us while we were growing up.

Jay Ray:

what did that mean?

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Well, I think back then you were encouraged, like

Jay Ray:

it was, they were encouraged for population reasons to have 2.

Jay Ray:

5.

Jay Ray:

It's like two in a possible.

Jay Ray:

I don't know what that meant either.

Jay Ray:

And the dog, don't forget the dog.

Jay Ray:

You gotta have that.

Jay Ray:

the dog.

Jay Ray:

You have to have a dog.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: And so, so yes, that's why we get this picture of, and Nat

Jay Ray:

King Cole fit the bill, you know, he was a, a beautiful, Dark skinned black

Jay Ray:

man, but he had that clonk was on point.

Jay Ray:

It was slanted to the side and he had a part, you know, he was, you know, the

Jay Ray:

suit and tie just very classy set, you know, something that we as black Americans

Jay Ray:

could aspire to and white America felt comfortable around, which is really the

Jay Ray:

biggest deal is that they felt comfortable with that representation of black.

Jay Ray:

This and yeah, and so that's why they were, they were on fine with that.

Jay Ray:

And I think that's what propelled that song to heights.

Jay Ray:

then this Christmas was the opposite, but go ahead.

Jay Ray:

I see you

Jay Ray:

Yeah,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: to say something.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

Mm.

Jay Ray:

So I know that I've mentioned this in past holiday

Jay Ray:

episodes, but it bears repeating.

Jay Ray:

Um, for me, the Christmas song represents like the, the start of the

Jay Ray:

holidays because my father, he had that old tattered Nat King Cole album

Jay Ray:

with all the Christmas, like it would be like the cover was falling apart.

Jay Ray:

Cause he had had it since the night, this is 1961, right?

Jay Ray:

But he would pop that neck King Cole on as we were decorating the

Jay Ray:

tree or doing whatever we were doing around the house during the

Jay Ray:

holidays, especially if he was home.

Jay Ray:

Um, during that time, if he worked first shift during the holidays, we knew

Jay Ray:

that that evening dad was going to want to do lights and do the tree and that

Jay Ray:

King Cole was going to start playing.

Jay Ray:

Even though I couldn't smell it, right?

Jay Ray:

Even though I'm sorry, even though we didn't have it, I could smell

Jay Ray:

chestnuts roasting on an open fire.

Jay Ray:

I don't know what that smelled like, but I, I do know what it smelled like

Jay Ray:

because we was smelling it in my house.

Jay Ray:

It wasn't no chestnuts roasting on Wayne had no open flyers, no

Jay Ray:

open fires other than the stove.

Jay Ray:

It wasn't no chestnuts on there, but the feeling, right?

Jay Ray:

You smelled it.

Jay Ray:

You felt it.

Jay Ray:

My father never played.

Jay Ray:

I don't know that he even owned this Christmas.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That's wild that you say that, because from what I understand,

Jay Ray:

a lot of, a lot of us don't include the Christmas song on their list of

Jay Ray:

like favorite Christmas Black Christmas holiday music, I think, and this is where

Jay Ray:

this Christmas comes in this Christmas is post civil rights era is very much

Jay Ray:

in the, you know, the Black Panther movement is going on and we're in this

Jay Ray:

era of I'm black and I'm proud and, you know, we're moving into the future.

Jay Ray:

We're moving in front into the seventies and, you know, Black

Jay Ray:

people are feeling empowered and a lot of those respectability

Jay Ray:

politics were out of the window.

Jay Ray:

And this Christmas, whereas the other song was patent leather shoes and pearls,

Jay Ray:

this Christmas is definitely an Afro pick and a leather jacket, you know,

Jay Ray:

and maybe a turtleneck because it's reflecting a reflection of the time.

Jay Ray:

And, you know, Donnie Hathaway, of course, that image of him

Jay Ray:

with the big Applejack hat.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: dream is starting to feel like, wait a minute, is that real?

Jay Ray:

Or is it a fantasy?

Jay Ray:

You know, I'm, I'm here trying to pursue it, but I don't know if I'm

Jay Ray:

actually going to have it, but.

Jay Ray:

it comes to Christmastime, can create this moment of togetherness, of longing

Jay Ray:

togetherness, and longing for a feeling of warmth and soul through this song, and

Jay Ray:

we are forever grateful for Donnie and Mr.

Jay Ray:

McKinnon for putting pen to paper and creating this holiday classic for us.

Jay Ray:

Black America to enjoy,

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: um, the diaspora, you know, like I said, you can't have a

Jay Ray:

song that's been covered over 80 times and not have different flavors of it.

Jay Ray:

Sir Daniel, I got a question then.

Jay Ray:

Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's talk about it.

Jay Ray:

I'mma just share my, my perspective.

Jay Ray:

I actually think this Christmas is so good that people don't need to cover it.

Jay Ray:

I feel like this Christmas as I get why people cover the, the, the

Jay Ray:

Christmas song because it's a standard.

Jay Ray:

Like, it's a standard at

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Jay Ray:

In the culture, right?

Jay Ray:

It has an arrangement, you know, where the notes land, you

Jay Ray:

know, what the structure is.

Jay Ray:

Whereas this Christmas is a groove it could be a lot of things, but I think

Jay Ray:

the original is actually so perfect that we should just leave it there.

Jay Ray:

are your thoughts on people covering this Christmas?

Jay Ray:

Cause I don't like none of the covers.

Jay Ray:

I heard a cover of this Christmas that I like.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: You know,

Jay Ray:

I forget who said this, but it's like a running joke.

Jay Ray:

At least you tried.

Jay Ray:

It's very much.

Jay Ray:

At least you tried.

Jay Ray:

We get it.

Jay Ray:

Um,

Jay Ray:

that's the thing about covers and we're going to talk about covers

Jay Ray:

in the upcoming episodes soon.

Jay Ray:

So make sure you stay tuned to Queue Points and subscribe.

Jay Ray:

So when that episode drops, you'll get to chime in on that as well.

Jay Ray:

Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: But

Jay Ray:

Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: the feeling around covers is.

Jay Ray:

Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: one of those things that nobody really asks

Jay Ray:

for, but I believe just artists

Jay Ray:

Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: have this feeling in themselves, like

Jay Ray:

Uh, Uh, Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: that I need to take on.

Jay Ray:

Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: somebody else's music.

Jay Ray:

Some might cover a classic

Jay Ray:

Uh,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: and it's also, again, it also is business.

Jay Ray:

industry realizes.

Jay Ray:

that covers Christmas albums, generate, um, money every single year.

Jay Ray:

McThank you, Mariah Carey.

Jay Ray:

They, you know, we really,

Jay Ray:

out November 1st.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: you know, she started out already, so she's ready to go.

Jay Ray:

And so I think that's just something that the industry is crew

Jay Ray:

has created for another carrot.

Jay Ray:

For artists to, to chase after.

Jay Ray:

a lot of times they don't even really want to participate in it.

Jay Ray:

They just do it because it's something that they're told that

Jay Ray:

they have to do contractually.

Jay Ray:

So a lot of times this not even there, they're not even wanting to do it.

Jay Ray:

So, you know, I can take or leave a lot of covers.

Jay Ray:

It's very rare that somebody comes along and is like, Oh yeah, you know,

Jay Ray:

you put your foot in that and shout out to people like Brandy and Robert

Jay Ray:

Glasper and people like that, that have.

Jay Ray:

Put out new Christmas music with different spins on it.

Jay Ray:

And I don't know if it'll catch on to be a classic, like these two songs

Jay Ray:

that we've discussed, but the fact that they've attempted and that they are

Jay Ray:

inserting new, um, Christmas music in the American songbook is to be commended.

Jay Ray:

And we hope that new artists follow suit and give us some, you know, give us

Jay Ray:

something else, try and give us something that can become your own classic.

Jay Ray:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jay Ray:

Y'all, thank you so much for tuning in as we wax poetic about, uh, the

Jay Ray:

Christmas song and this Christmas.

Jay Ray:

you all so much.

Jay Ray:

If you can hear us, if you can see us, please subscribe.

Jay Ray:

Tell a friend about the show.

Jay Ray:

Friends, family, colleagues, if you enjoy Queue Points, chances are they

Jay Ray:

will enjoy Queue Points as well.

Jay Ray:

the question.

Jay Ray:

And Which song is your favorite?

Jay Ray:

Do you like the Christmas song?

Jay Ray:

Do you like this Christmas?

Jay Ray:

Is there another Christmas classic that you really enjoy?

Jay Ray:

Let us know.

Jay Ray:

You can always email us at info at Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com.

Jay Ray:

Find us on social media at Definitely hop in our DMs and let us know.

Jay Ray:

We would love to share your favorite Christmas song.

Jay Ray:

it out.

Jay Ray:

If you want to support Queue Points, head on over to our website at Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com.

Jay Ray:

You can do a lot of things over there.

Jay Ray:

You could subscribe to our newsletter.

Jay Ray:

You could get additional content over on our sub stack.

Jay Ray:

That's magazine.

Jay Ray:

Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com.

Jay Ray:

While you're over there, you can also read, um, other stories and other content

Jay Ray:

that we have in the Queue Points universe.

Jay Ray:

And last but not least, you can go ahead and you can shop our store at store.

Jay Ray:

Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com.

Jay Ray:

We'd really appreciate it.

Jay Ray:

Helps to keep the lights on in Queue Points land.

Jay Ray:

We love y'all.

Jay Ray:

We appreciate y'all.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right.

Jay Ray:

And what do I say at the end of every episode in this life?

Jay Ray:

You have a choice.

Jay Ray:

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

Jay Ray:

My name is DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray:

My name is Jay Ray, y'all.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping

Jay Ray:

the needle on black music history.

Jay Ray:

We'll see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray:

Peace.

Jay Ray:

Peace, y'all.

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