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DJ Sir Daniel: and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

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I am DJ Sir Daniel.

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And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government

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as Johnnie Ray Kornegay the third and Sir Daniel time flies.

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We are back in the holiday season, the holiday spirit, sir.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely.

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It's that time of year.

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Go ahead and double fist that hot cup of cocoa that you have right now.

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And just cozy on up to another episode of Queue Points podcast because Jay

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Ray after years, and I do mean years, like especially for me after years of

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experiencing the holidays and You know, all the stuff that comes along with it.

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Does Christmas music still give you, you know, the warm fuzzies?

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And does it, you know, make you feel holly and jolly still?

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Cause I'm trying to think, does that still do it for me?

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How about you?

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So the short answer to your question is yes, but I feel like I

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need to explain for because I was too cool for school for like a long

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time, I would say things like, I'm not really into holiday music, right?

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That was a lie.

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think what think what soured me to holiday music is as a person who

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worked in retail for many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Talk about it.

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In November, actually it was, so back then it was like November,

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like you could time it, one, all of a sudden the dang Beatles started playing

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and would hear holiday music all day.

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ad nauseum an entire month, uh, the entire two months.

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So it was like November to December.

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so I think I internalized that experience with, I don't like holiday music.

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I do like holiday music and it does still give me the warm and fuzzies.

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But I think what's interesting about it, Sir Daniel is I

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still like the classics, man.

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The classics still do it for me.

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I can listen to them classics every day, all the time.

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Don't matter.

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Yes.

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DJ Sir Daniel: had a chokehold specifically on the black community

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since they dropped, um, last century, cause it's been, it's been a whole

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nother century since these songs dropped, but they've been recycled.

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They've been covered.

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They've been, you know, fizzed up for new generations.

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The originals still hold, hold a magic over us the years.

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And I'm talking about, of course, the Christmas song by Nat King Cole and

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this Christmas by Donnie Hathaway.

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And Jay Ray, since, uh, well, what is that hold that it has

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over us in the black community?

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Those two songs in particular, I have my, I have some theories around it, but

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you know, and you know me, I'm a, I guess I'm a theorist over here on Queue Points,

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but I want to hear, you know, your take on why these two songs in particular

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kind of have a choke hold on us.

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Hmm.

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That is a really interesting question.

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So what's interesting about the Christmas song?

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First and foremost, it was written by Robert Wells and Mel Tormé.

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Um, but of course, made famous by Nat King Cole.

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Um, and I think that song has a chokehold on our community because one, it was,

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um, It was a song by a black artist released at a time when black artists

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didn't have like the cachet and like the general pop community at the time.

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So, Nat King Cole, I think, represented the possibility

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of the American dream, right?

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And so black people were like, this.

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DJ Sir Daniel: give me that.

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Yeah.

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Give me more of that, please.

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And also, it's well sung, and it's a beautiful song.

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And they did their big one on that.

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So that's, for the Christmas song, I think it's that.

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For this Christmas, I think this Christmas is just like a

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quintessentially black Christmas song.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.

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And I think that's why it has a chokehold on the black community.

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And it's also a groove.

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I mean, who can't did it, it did it, did it, did it.

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It's got all the stuff that black folks want in that song.

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Yeah.

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I think that's why those two songs have a chokehold.

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What are you, what is your theory?

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What is your

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DJ Sir Daniel: So I'm gonna hold my theory just a little bit because You um,

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you brought up a couple things regarding both songs, but preparing for this

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episode, Jay Ray, you and I discovered some things regarding these records

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that I don't think a lot of people know.

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And that's what key points is here for.

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Um, both songs are synonymous with the holidays, but we discovered that

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they were not immediate hit records.

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Not at all.

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So a couple of quick history notes for the Christmas song.

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So the Christmas song was, um, first recorded, which might surprise people.

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It was first recorded in 1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.

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It was written in 45, recorded in 1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.

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And actually, the Christmas song has Four distinct recordings.

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So the first recording happened at WMCA Studios in 1946, as we mentioned.

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There was another recording at Studios in, um, so one was recorded in June,

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one, one was recorded in August of 46.

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The second recording there included the Nat King Cole trio and a choir.

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they were like

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DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.

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fourth, recording of the song, which was actually recorded in 1961.

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In the studio at Capitol Studios.

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And that is the one that we're most familiar with.

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It's Nat King Cole.

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It wasn't even the Nat King Cole trio then.

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It was just Nat King Cole, the band, the, the, the orchestra, et cetera.

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Interesting tidbit about the Christmas song is there actually are four

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different recordings of that song that all kind of have their own feel.

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We are the most familiar with the last, so that's that on that one.

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This Christmas, of course, written by one Donnie Hathaway, who is credited

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as Donnie Pitts, uh, for this song and co written by Nadine Teresa McKenner.

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Now Nadine is really important to this song because the

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song really starts with her.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Right.

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She's working in, um, as the story goes, she

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was working in the post office

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DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.

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Mm hmm.

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Nat King Cole in her head.

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DJ Sir Daniel: So through line.

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Yes.

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through line.

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So she's in there thinking about Nat King Cole and she's humming along this

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Christmas, da, da, da, Nat King Cole.

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We're doing a whole thing, trying to get herself through the day.

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And here comes the opportunity.

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And that's 1967, by the

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they wrote the song initially,

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DJ Sir Daniel: I think that's very important.

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That is really important, right?

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So this is, what, six years after the most famous version of Nat King Cole's song.

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So that's still a contemporary song by the time they record this Christmas.

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Donny Hathaway's, uh, uh, to this song is that Donny Hathaway

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wanted a quintessentially black Christmas song, right?

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And, um, by 1970, they record this song And Sir Daniel, we learned this.

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We were both surprised by this.

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this Christmas was not a hit when it dropped.

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Like, this

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DJ Sir Daniel: paid it

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y'all paid this Christmas dust.

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This Christmas did not become a hit song until after Mr.

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Hathaway's death.

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This Christmas was just like, It languished for

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years before becoming a hit.

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DJ Sir Daniel: And the thing about that with very popular songs, um, that

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sometimes really great songs essence, sometimes they don't automatically

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become a commercial success.

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Mm

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DJ Sir Daniel: They're like crock pots.

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And I think a lot of producers and musicians back then wrote songs

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Mm hmm.

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DJ Sir Daniel: for the crock pot generation.

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Meaning that they were, they were allowed, yeah, those songs were allowed to simmer,

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to stew, to, to, to, to double up on the flavor and really get ingrained.

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And then they have this longevity that goes on for years, so much so

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that in doing research for this, um, topic, I discovered that there

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are like 80 covers and counting.

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Of the Donny Hathaway classic this Christmas, 80 covers and counting.

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Cause I'm sure I'm certain when y'all is out there cooking up a remix right

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now that we may not need, but go ahead, do your thing, do your big one.

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it in the mix.

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You see what happens.

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Maybe it'll become a hit for you.

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But yes, there's like 80 plus covers of this Christmas.

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There are approximately 1, 709 covers of the Nat King Cole

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classic, the Christmas song.

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That's

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makes

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DJ Sir Daniel: industry is all about collecting dollars.

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And sometimes if it ain't broke, fix it.

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do, you know, don't recreate, you don't have to recreate the wheel, just do what

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works and give the people what they want.

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So we come to the end of, um, as we get ready to wrap up on this episode,

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I kind of want to go back to what I was asking you in regards to why these

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songs have such a chokehold on us, specifically in the black community.

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you hit the nail on the head.

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Silence.

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DJ Sir Daniel: this Christmas reflect two distinct eras in black America's history.

Jay Ray: 00:11:11

Yes.

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DJ Sir Daniel: of the things that affected black Americans deeply in the

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Jim Crow era, the post civil war era, the, you know, right up until the civil

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rights movement, there's this, like you said earlier, this need to feel Um,

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like you're entitled to the American dream and whatever that looks like.

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Well, back then it looked like class.

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It looked like pearls.

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It looked like, you know, a starched suit and, you know,

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mom with her pin curls and 2.

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5, 2.

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5 kids and a dog.

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All of those things that we were told is the American dream.

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I don't know that this is something that they just kept telling

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us while we were growing up.

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what did that mean?

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DJ Sir Daniel: Well, I think back then you were encouraged, like

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it was, they were encouraged for population reasons to have 2.

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5.

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It's like two in a possible.

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I don't know what that meant either.

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And the dog, don't forget the dog.

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You gotta have that.

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the dog.

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You have to have a dog.

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Right.

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DJ Sir Daniel: And so, so yes, that's why we get this picture of, and Nat

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King Cole fit the bill, you know, he was a, a beautiful, Dark skinned black

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man, but he had that clonk was on point.

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It was slanted to the side and he had a part, you know, he was, you know, the

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suit and tie just very classy set, you know, something that we as black Americans

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could aspire to and white America felt comfortable around, which is really the

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biggest deal is that they felt comfortable with that representation of black.

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This and yeah, and so that's why they were, they were on fine with that.

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And I think that's what propelled that song to heights.

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then this Christmas was the opposite, but go ahead.

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I see you

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Yeah,

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DJ Sir Daniel: to say something.

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Mm hmm.

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Mm hmm.

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Mm.

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So I know that I've mentioned this in past holiday

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episodes, but it bears repeating.

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Um, for me, the Christmas song represents like the, the start of the

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holidays because my father, he had that old tattered Nat King Cole album

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with all the Christmas, like it would be like the cover was falling apart.

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Cause he had had it since the night, this is 1961, right?

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But he would pop that neck King Cole on as we were decorating the

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tree or doing whatever we were doing around the house during the

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holidays, especially if he was home.

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Um, during that time, if he worked first shift during the holidays, we knew

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that that evening dad was going to want to do lights and do the tree and that

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King Cole was going to start playing.

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Even though I couldn't smell it, right?

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Even though I'm sorry, even though we didn't have it, I could smell

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chestnuts roasting on an open fire.

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I don't know what that smelled like, but I, I do know what it smelled like

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because we was smelling it in my house.

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It wasn't no chestnuts roasting on Wayne had no open flyers, no

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open fires other than the stove.

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It wasn't no chestnuts on there, but the feeling, right?

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You smelled it.

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You felt it.

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My father never played.

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I don't know that he even owned this Christmas.

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DJ Sir Daniel: That's wild that you say that, because from what I understand,

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a lot of, a lot of us don't include the Christmas song on their list of

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like favorite Christmas Black Christmas holiday music, I think, and this is where

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this Christmas comes in this Christmas is post civil rights era is very much

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in the, you know, the Black Panther movement is going on and we're in this

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era of I'm black and I'm proud and, you know, we're moving into the future.

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We're moving in front into the seventies and, you know, Black

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people are feeling empowered and a lot of those respectability

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politics were out of the window.

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And this Christmas, whereas the other song was patent leather shoes and pearls,

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this Christmas is definitely an Afro pick and a leather jacket, you know,

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and maybe a turtleneck because it's reflecting a reflection of the time.

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And, you know, Donnie Hathaway, of course, that image of him

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with the big Applejack hat.

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Yes.

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DJ Sir Daniel: dream is starting to feel like, wait a minute, is that real?

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Or is it a fantasy?

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You know, I'm, I'm here trying to pursue it, but I don't know if I'm

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actually going to have it, but.

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it comes to Christmastime, can create this moment of togetherness, of longing

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togetherness, and longing for a feeling of warmth and soul through this song, and

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we are forever grateful for Donnie and Mr.

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McKinnon for putting pen to paper and creating this holiday classic for us.

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Black America to enjoy,

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Yeah.

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DJ Sir Daniel: um, the diaspora, you know, like I said, you can't have a

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song that's been covered over 80 times and not have different flavors of it.

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Sir Daniel, I got a question then.

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Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's talk about it.

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I'mma just share my, my perspective.

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I actually think this Christmas is so good that people don't need to cover it.

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I feel like this Christmas as I get why people cover the, the, the

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Christmas song because it's a standard.

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Like, it's a standard at

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DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

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In the culture, right?

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It has an arrangement, you know, where the notes land, you

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know, what the structure is.

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Whereas this Christmas is a groove it could be a lot of things, but I think

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the original is actually so perfect that we should just leave it there.

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are your thoughts on people covering this Christmas?

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Cause I don't like none of the covers.

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I heard a cover of this Christmas that I like.

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DJ Sir Daniel: You know,

Jay Ray: 00:18:04

I forget who said this, but it's like a running joke.

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At least you tried.

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It's very much.

Jay Ray: 00:18:11

At least you tried.

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We get it.

Jay Ray: 00:18:13

Um,

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that's the thing about covers and we're going to talk about covers

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in the upcoming episodes soon.

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So make sure you stay tuned to Queue Points and subscribe.

Jay Ray: 00:18:24

So when that episode drops, you'll get to chime in on that as well.

Jay Ray: 00:18:28

Uh,

Jay Ray: 00:18:28

DJ Sir Daniel: But

Jay Ray: 00:18:29

Uh,

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DJ Sir Daniel: the feeling around covers is.

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Uh,

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DJ Sir Daniel: one of those things that nobody really asks

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for, but I believe just artists

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Uh,

Jay Ray: 00:18:40

DJ Sir Daniel: have this feeling in themselves, like

Jay Ray: 00:18:43

Uh, Uh, Uh,

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DJ Sir Daniel: that I need to take on.

Jay Ray: 00:18:47

Uh,

Jay Ray: 00:18:48

DJ Sir Daniel: somebody else's music.

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Some might cover a classic

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Uh,

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DJ Sir Daniel: and it's also, again, it also is business.

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industry realizes.

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that covers Christmas albums, generate, um, money every single year.

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McThank you, Mariah Carey.

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They, you know, we really,

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out November 1st.

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DJ Sir Daniel: you know, she started out already, so she's ready to go.

Jay Ray: 00:19:14

And so I think that's just something that the industry is crew

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has created for another carrot.

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For artists to, to chase after.

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a lot of times they don't even really want to participate in it.

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They just do it because it's something that they're told that

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they have to do contractually.

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So a lot of times this not even there, they're not even wanting to do it.

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So, you know, I can take or leave a lot of covers.

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It's very rare that somebody comes along and is like, Oh yeah, you know,

Jay Ray: 00:19:45

you put your foot in that and shout out to people like Brandy and Robert

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Glasper and people like that, that have.

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Put out new Christmas music with different spins on it.

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And I don't know if it'll catch on to be a classic, like these two songs

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that we've discussed, but the fact that they've attempted and that they are

Jay Ray: 00:20:05

inserting new, um, Christmas music in the American songbook is to be commended.

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And we hope that new artists follow suit and give us some, you know, give us

Jay Ray: 00:20:17

something else, try and give us something that can become your own classic.

Jay Ray: 00:20:21

Yeah, absolutely.

Jay Ray: 00:20:23

Y'all, thank you so much for tuning in as we wax poetic about, uh, the

Jay Ray: 00:20:28

Christmas song and this Christmas.

Jay Ray: 00:20:31

you all so much.

Jay Ray: 00:20:32

If you can hear us, if you can see us, please subscribe.

Jay Ray: 00:20:35

Tell a friend about the show.

Jay Ray: 00:20:37

Friends, family, colleagues, if you enjoy Queue Points, chances are they

Jay Ray: 00:20:40

will enjoy Queue Points as well.

Jay Ray: 00:20:43

the question.

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And Which song is your favorite?

Jay Ray: 00:20:48

Do you like the Christmas song?

Jay Ray: 00:20:49

Do you like this Christmas?

Jay Ray: 00:20:51

Is there another Christmas classic that you really enjoy?

Jay Ray: 00:20:54

Let us know.

Jay Ray: 00:20:54

You can always email us at info at Queue Points.

Jay Ray: 00:20:57

com.

Jay Ray: 00:20:58

Find us on social media at Definitely hop in our DMs and let us know.

Jay Ray: 00:21:03

We would love to share your favorite Christmas song.

Jay Ray: 00:21:08

it out.

Jay Ray: 00:21:09

If you want to support Queue Points, head on over to our website at Queue Points.

Jay Ray: 00:21:13

com.

Jay Ray: 00:21:13

You can do a lot of things over there.

Jay Ray: 00:21:15

You could subscribe to our newsletter.

Jay Ray: 00:21:17

You could get additional content over on our sub stack.

Jay Ray: 00:21:20

That's magazine.

Jay Ray: 00:21:21

Queue Points.

Jay Ray: 00:21:22

com.

Jay Ray: 00:21:23

While you're over there, you can also read, um, other stories and other content

Jay Ray: 00:21:27

that we have in the Queue Points universe.

Jay Ray: 00:21:29

And last but not least, you can go ahead and you can shop our store at store.

Jay Ray: 00:21:35

Queue Points.

Jay Ray: 00:21:35

com.

Jay Ray: 00:21:36

We'd really appreciate it.

Jay Ray: 00:21:37

Helps to keep the lights on in Queue Points land.

Jay Ray: 00:21:40

We love y'all.

Jay Ray: 00:21:40

We appreciate y'all.

Jay Ray: 00:21:42

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right.

Jay Ray: 00:21:43

And what do I say at the end of every episode in this life?

Jay Ray: 00:21:45

You have a choice.

Jay Ray: 00:21:47

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

Jay Ray: 00:21:50

My name is DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: 00:21:52

My name is Jay Ray, y'all.

Jay Ray: 00:21:54

DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping

Jay Ray: 00:21:56

the needle on black music history.

Jay Ray: 00:21:59

We'll see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray: 00:22:00

Peace.

Jay Ray: 00:22:01

Peace, y'all.