Before we can understand where licensure is going, we need to understand how it got here. In this opening episode, Andy introduces NCARB’s Pathways to Practice initiative and explores the history of architectural licensure in the United States.

Andy first speaks with Ed Marley, NCARB’s FY26 President, about why NCARB is reimagining licensure and what a more flexible, competency-based future could look like. Then, Amanda Pica, NCARB’s Assistant Vice President of Marketing and Communications, joins the conversation to trace the origins of architectural regulation—from early building failures and public safety concerns to the formation of NCARB and the evolution of education, experience, and examination.

Find out more about Pathways to Practice.

Welcome to the NCARB podcast, where you're going to get an inside look at licensure

regulation and the initiative shaping the future of architectural practice.

2

I'm your host, Andy McIntyre, and I'm the Vice President of Marketing and Communications

at NCARB.

3

As you can probably tell, I'm originally from the UK, but I've been with NCARB since 2014,

and I'm excited to bring you the latest trends in architecture and licensure.

4

So here on this podcast, we're going to take a closer look at how architectural licensure

works today.

5

and how it's evolving to meet the needs of the profession and the public.

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Each season of this podcast will bring you the most up-to-date information on ENCOM's

programs and share insights into what's going on behind the scenes.

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For this season, we're focused on Pathways to Practice, ENCOM's multi-year effort to

reimagine the path to architectural licensure.

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Through Pathways to Practice, ENCOM is working to expand access to the architecture

profession by making the licensure process more modern and flexible.

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while still maintaining the rigour required to protect the health, safety and welfare of

the public.

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At its core, this initiative is about recognising that there isn't just one way to become

an architect.

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Every career path is different and NCAR wants licensure to work with those differences,

not around them.

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But before we can talk about where licensure is going, it's important to understand how we

got here.

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So in this first episode, we're stepping back to look at the origins of architectural

licensure in the United States.

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why it was created, how it evolved and how NCOB's programs developed over time.

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We'll start with a high level conversation about Pathways to Practice with NCOB's 2026

president, Ed Marley, where we'll talk about what this initiative is, what NCOB hopes to

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achieve and why this moment matters.

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Well, today I am joined by NCARB's FY26 president, Mr.

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Ed Marley.

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Ed, welcome.

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Good morning, Andy.

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I always think it's an interesting sort of this FY26 and let me just clarify it for anyone

who's interested in why we call it that or why your title is that, is that ENCOB's

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governance and financial cycle is not on a calendar year.

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And we work on a July through to June sort of cycle.

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And Ed, you are president from July, 2025 through to June of 2026.

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So Ed, just some context for you.

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We are.

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exploring NCARB's Pathways to Practice initiative through this podcast series.

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There's a lot of threads to pull on and there's a lot of talking points in and around

pathways, why we're doing it, what's its origins, what do we hope to achieve.

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We thought a podcast series would be a good vehicle for this just because of the nuance

and the many different aspects of everything that's going into Pathways to Practice.

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So we'd like to talk to you right at the beginning and say, Ed, you're the president right

now.

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You've picked up the baton, if you will.

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on Pathways to Practice.

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Tell us some thoughts.

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What's your thoughts coming into this, into your year as president and what does Pathways

to Practice mean to you?

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Well, I'm really excited about picking up the baton on pathways to practice this year.

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My state has always been a multiple pathway state since the inception of its board.

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Just for everyone's benefit, your state is.

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My state is Arizona, yes.

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So, Multiple Pathways has always been a part of Arizona's regulations for the past

architectural licensure.

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So, being faced with the opportunity to expand access to the profession, to create more

fairness in access to the profession, to be a part of that is just really exciting to me

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in this year.

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So, I'm really looking forward to seeing the next steps that we take over the next seven

months.

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and being able to hand it off to the next president.

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term pathways to practice.

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Obviously there's a bit of alliteration there.

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It's nice and pithy, three words, right?

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But could you impart that for us?

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What are we really talking about when we say pathways to practice?

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Even though it is alliterative, it really is about creating multiple means of access to

architectural licensure and the certificate.

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Historically, the route to licensure has been a NABAC-credited degree, experienced the

ARE, and licensure by a jurisdiction.

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This Pathways initiative allows us now to consider someone with a four-year degree.

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someone with a two-year community college degree, and perhaps someone with no degree at

all who may only have a high school diploma.

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Anyone with those credentials coming into the process can gain architectural licensure

through a set of varied requirements.

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And you mentioned, that in Arizona, which is your home state, the regulations in that

state, I don't always have, but certainly in recent times have allowed for different

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pathways to licensure.

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So there's some states that have had this and had more opportunity or more diversification

in choice of approach to getting a license, but that hasn't been universal, as you

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mentioned.

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So from NCOP's perspective, is pathways really about just broadening the scope and making

sure that that

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availability and opportunities across all of the sort 55 jurisdictions that NCARB

supports.

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That would be our goal, is to have all 55 jurisdictions adopt multiple pathways.

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And we're seeing some trends in that direction.

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When this initiative started out, we had 17 jurisdictions that allowed multiple pathways.

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We've now added two or three others to that equation.

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And I think I want to point out that while the majority of our jurisdictions required the

NAVA-credited degree for initial licensure,

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I believe 48 of our jurisdictions actually allowed multiple pathways for reciprocal

licensure.

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There's been a double standard in some of our jurisdictions over whether you're an initial

licensee in that jurisdiction or you're a reciprocal licensee and what qualifications you

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needed to be granted licensure.

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So NCub has been around since 1919.

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Why now for NCub?

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Why is it time to reinvent this license?

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My experience since I've been involved in NCARB is NCARB has always been a very thought

forward organization that's been assessing the impacts of the economy and other factors on

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the pathway to licensure.

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And what we're finding is that there is some inequities in that process and we're able to

help facilitate a dialogue that allows, maintains the rigor of getting into the

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profession, but allows

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folks from various socioeconomic backgrounds who really want to be architects to get into

the profession.

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And so I think it was a very timely effort that we initiated a few years ago.

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So Ed, NCobb is obviously focused on the licensing of architects across the US, but there

are many other licensed professions out there within the economy.

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So how is NCobb's Pathways to Practice effort landing, if you will, within that sort of

bigger context?

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Are other professions seeing a similar kind of approach to change and reinvention of

licensure?

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Is NCobb sort of a leading light at the front end of change in this space?

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I would say NCARB is one of the leaders in the regulatory space in terms of innovation and

alternative means to the path to licensure, but that doesn't mean we're all alone.

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There are other professions out there.

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Certain jurisdictions are looking at access to the law profession.

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Other jurisdictions are looking at access to certified public accounting.

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So I think we're a thought leader in this space, but we're not doing it alone.

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There are other examples out there and that's encouraging because I think other

professions are recognizing the need for access to their professions through alternative

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means.

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And do you think that's because there's a general trend in the economy at large in society

that there needs to be adjustments?

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The challenges that architects are facing or the challenges we're seeing and our

motivation for change isn't unique to us, it's something that's broader than that.

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I think it's something that's broader than that.

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think architecture is a real perfect fit for this means because if you go way back in

history, not all of the really famous architects of their time had an education.

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Some of them did work under the mentorship of another architect.

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And so I think we're a leader in this arena, but we're not going it alone.

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What's the timeframe?

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You mentioned that you have a year, it's a baton, you're going to pass it to somebody

else.

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How should our various constituents and groups think about this from a timeline

perspective?

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Well, I think it's going to take a little while.

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A lot of what we're proposing requires legislative change.

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I think realistically, because this is also tied to our competencies model and assessment

tools for competency, how do we roll all of that out?

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Because they kind of work in tandem.

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We have to take the time necessary to ensure that what we develop is rock solid.

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And that's going to probably take four or more years from now.

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to actually get something that we're able to implement.

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And if we look ahead, look to that sort of that horizon, what does NCOP hope the licensure

looks like in the future?

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What would success look like for this project?

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I think success would look like someone with a community college degree would be able to

meet all of their competencies through a combination of their work in community college

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and their work in a firm and through our assessment methodologies, be able to become a

licensed architect and not have a burden of great debt on their shoulders.

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But at the same time, someone who really aspires to get an ABDA-credited degree could

still do that.

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What would bring me great joy is if those students coming out of an accredited program

would also be able to fulfill certain competencies as they walk away from that institution

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and then continue on their path to licensure and get licensed through that methodology.

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So choice, it's all about choices, options, and fairness.

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I think that's a great summary.

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Ed, really appreciate you joining us today.

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Thank you.

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Would you like to leave any final thoughts on Pathways?

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Anything you'd like to sort of offer up for your personal take?

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As we look forward on Pathways, I'm really excited about what we're doing and where the

organization is headed.

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We're seeing more and more support for this initiative in our jurisdictions.

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I'm excited about that.

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And I just want to invite the jurisdictions that have concerns to talk to us.

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And I think we can help allay your concerns and build an even better program for our

licensure candidates and our certificate.

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Well, Ed, I know that you've been a real passionate advocate for pathways to practice and

are going to continue to do that, the remainder of your presidency and beyond.

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And thank you for doing that on behalf of NCOM staff and everyone else.

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So really appreciate having you at the helm as we move forward.

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Thank you and thank the staff for all the support because we're a team.

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As Ed highlighted, Pathways to Practice is about expanding access, not lowering standards.

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It's about how a competency-based, modular approach to licensure can better reflect the

diversity of educational and career paths in the profession.

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Ed also emphasised that this work will take time, care and collaboration, but that the

goal is a licensure system that's both fair and future-ready.

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That sets the stage for the question at the heart of today's episode.

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Why does licensure look the way it does in the first place?

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To answer that, I'm joined by Amanda Pika, Assistant Vice President of Marketing and

Communications, close colleague of mine at NCARB, and one of our in-house experts on

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NCARB's history.

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Together, we explore how architectural licensure emerged in response to real-world

failures, public safety concerns, and the growing complexity of the built environment.

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Well, today I am joined by my colleague, Amanda Pika.

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Now, reminder, I'm the Vice President of Marketing and Communications at NCARB.

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Amanda, what is your role?

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I am the Assistant Vice President of Marketing and Communication.

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Which means what?

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which means that I do a lot of project management and sort of the day-to-day of the team

in terms of communications, emails, websites.

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In terms of this project, I was very involved in preparing all the materials to celebrate

our 100th anniversary, and I do maintain our internal archive.

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Very precise.

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also means that you have the misfortune of working with me a lot.

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And we've been colleagues for over a decade now.

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So thank you for suffering through all that time, Amanda.

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But in all seriousness, you just mentioned the fact that back in 2019, when NCARB was

celebrating its uh 100th year, so its centennial, we did a big project that was really

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looking at the history of NCARB and really trying to understand sort of its origins, how

it came to be and how it's evolved over time.

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that puts you in the role of being our subject matter expert.

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Whether you like it or not, Amanda, you are now the historian and custodian of all things

NCARB.

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How do you feel about this prestigious role?

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You know, when I was asked to digitize our archives, it was like my very first assignment

at NCARB.

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I did not anticipate that would be a long lasting legacy for me here.

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but you have a minor in.

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I do have a minor in architectural history.

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there you go, you see, it was meant to be, it was destiny.

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All right.

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Well, today we're talking about the big picture conversations around pathways to practice

and NCARB's future evolution of our programs.

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But to get us there, it kind of makes sense for us to really go back to the start and ask

some very fundamental questions about why are we here?

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How did licensure come to be?

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What is the sort of origins of the current structure and the current system?

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So we want to start right at the beginning.

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And I think hopefully between us, we can try and share some insights into this, Amanda.

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Let's dive in right there and let's ask this question.

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I'll phrase it in this way.

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Architecture has been around for hundreds of years, right?

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You can go back to the Greeks, Romans, Acropolis, whatever you want and talk about

architecture, pyramids.

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But when it comes to the licensure of architects and architecture being a

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sort of licensed profession and we'll frame this in the context of the US specifically.

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Tell us a little bit about sort of timeframe and the origins of how that came to be.

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terms of beginning to regulate and license architects, it really started in the late 1800s

and it was really a response to tragedy and also more larger societal things happening,

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right?

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News spread faster in terms of newspaper delivery and more regional, right?

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As people could spread out more with weathered train and also in early 1900s, the

automobile.

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Also, in looking through our book to prepare for this, you know, the prevalence of

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And, you know, the first ones, there were these illustrations, but as you got into the

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killed lots of people.

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So people were really starting to respond to

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what they were seeing and wanting to change.

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And I think that's just worth dwelling on that a little bit.

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So late 1800s, society's advancing and there's definitely correlation between the

complexity of buildings and building structures.

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So at the same time as buildings are getting taller, they're getting more complex, there's

the advent of the elevator, which takes, you know, a building's height based on what's a

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reasonable amount of floors to walk up to.

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Now you can go up to 10 plus stories.

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This is changing a lot of the

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expectations, the safety, the factors that play about how buildings are designed and how

things are being structured.

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And you're right.

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You mentioned the tragedies.

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There was building failures that drove some of this narrative.

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Yeah, I mean, also the materials that were used to build buildings too, right?

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Illinois is the first state that did pass regulation related to architecture.

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And it was really a follow-up of the Great Chippewa Fire, right?

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Where everything was mostly made out of wood, settlements had not necessarily taken as

much planning, just an urban planning.

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you know, weather factors and things allowed that fire to spread very quickly and destroy

a lot of buildings and

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hurt a lot of people and in their kind of rebuilding efforts, they took a lot of thought

into how they rebuild that city and the materials they use and the safety measures.

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mean, same thing in the early 1900s, was also a theater fire in Chicago and a lot about

like how you escape a building like that that the public is using.

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What kind of fire prevention should be in a building to help give people time to escape?

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I know you mentioned the theater that had the big roof collapse and that was I think the

Knickerbocker Theater in DC.

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And I can't remember the year and maybe you know it, but that was a situation where there

was big snowfall.

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There was a lot of weight of snow on the roof.

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They were in a performance.

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The theater was full and basically the roof collapsed and killed hundreds of people, I

believe, which really just did elevate this conversation around engineering and building

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design and making sure that the buildings are equipped to

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survive not just sort of the day to day, but the extreme conditions that they face any

particular time in the year.

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So you mentioned Illinois was the first state to get licensed or for licensure to sort of

be established.

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Let's think about that.

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And chronologically, where are we now?

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What kind of year are we in when this is happening in Illinois?

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I think it was like 1890s.

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I'm not going to contradict you, I think you're right.

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It might have been 1897 from memory.

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Don't hold me to that.

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going to be specific, I thought I'd be safer to just say the 1890s.

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Okay, fair enough.

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So 1897, Illinois, first board, and this is at a state level, so forget the national

conversation right now.

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Licensure established itself state by state, staggered across the country.

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And one of the things I remember about sort of researching that narrative was that it was

actually the professionalist institution had established itself, the American Institute

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for Architects, I think established itself in 1850s.

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1857, maybe somewhere around then.

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So there was a coming together of professionals and professionals talking across the

country and interacting.

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And I think that the professional organizations have been, were part responsible for

driving this conversation around licensure and asking for licensure to exist, wanting to

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sort of protect standards and duty of care, if you will, within that developing

profession.

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One thing that was interesting to me in that research was the fact that the

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submission or the request to the state legislator for licensure to be established was also

done in conjunction with the construction industry and builders who also advocated for

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architects to become licensed because it's not just occupants that were injured, it's also

sometimes the actual builders and the construction individuals who were getting injured or

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having accidents as part of the construction phase.

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Yes, in New York there were a series of tenant buildings that essentially collapsed like

dominoes.

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And that was an example of what you're talking about, that New York architects did lobby.

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I mean, it took them a while to finally succeed, but they really wanted to prevent things

like that to happen again and lobbied along just people building to.

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Fundamentally, right, let's just think about architecture as a licensed profession in

conjunction with some other professions.

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So we've got law, we've got medicine, accountancy.

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Why does licensure exist, Amanda?

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What is its purpose?

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It's to protect the public, the health, safety, and welfare of the public.

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various succincts.

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I know we say that, right?

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We talk about it a lot, but it's an interesting concept.

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I always thought about this knowledge that's inherent.

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Like the lay person doesn't know, right?

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And they don't know what they don't know.

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They don't know how to vet a building design or they don't know how to determine whether

what they're presented as a concept is going to work.

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So licensure is there to really help support the public in the sense of like, don't expect

you to have this inherent knowledge.

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So we're going to make sure that anyone professing to being a provider of these services

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has it and has that competency to deliver it.

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So fast forwarding, let's fly through the early 1900s or 20th century.

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Chicago establishes late 1890s.

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There's other cities and other states that establish licensure within them.

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What's the timeframe for NCARB's establishment?

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So there was a man named Emery Stanford Hall.

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He was an architect in Chicago.

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And he invited basically people who were on licensing boards that had been established.

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There were 20 or so, think, as well as a couple from jurisdictions or states that were

considering creating a process to license architects.

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And he invited them to a meeting in 1919 in Nashville, Tennessee at the AIA convention.

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to go back to your earlier point about how integral the professional associations were.

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It was a gathering point where they could talk about things and they were all in the same

place at the same time.

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And they met at essentially a side meeting of the AIA conference that year in Nashville,

Tennessee.

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And the action that they came out of was like, actually, there should be an organization

that can help us do this as it's continuing to grow.

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not only in standardizing what it requires to demonstrate your competency to have a

license, but to also think about each state has a process based on the US Constitution.

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obviously, know, Emory Stenberg-Halt from Chicago may want to do business in Milwaukee,

Wisconsin, which is not that far away, and not want to have to start over with Wisconsin's

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licensure process.

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So they also started to talk.

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not just the standards for getting a license, but what should happen if you want to have

multiple licenses in multiple states.

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And at that time, 1919, roughly how many states do we think had established licensure

within them?

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20-ish is what I'm thinking, but I would want to fact check that.

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It wasn't everywhere though, right?

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It was still something that was sort of slowly rolling out across the country with

different states adopting licensure laws at different times.

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And I mean, all the way until the 1940s and 50s, states were still establishing their

processes.

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So let's talk about the processes that were established.

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back in 1919, and you mentioned that NCARB, our conversation is broader than NCARB, but

obviously we are NCARB and we're integral to the licensure process in the US now.

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What was the intent to come together from the state's perspective?

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And what were the tenets of licensure at that time that the individuals who formed this

organization really wanted to align or integrate or standardize?

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There essentially have been like three main areas over time and they've taken various

shapes, but education has always been something that has been considered.

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The Association of Collegiate Schools of Architecture was founded around the same time of

us.

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So schools of architecture were also starting to collaborate and share what they were

doing.

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Their apprenticeship has long been associated with architecture throughout time, which

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we would think about today in terms of an experience component.

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And then what licensure I think really introduced is the concept of an exam.

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So Illinois being the first was the first one to test those interested in gaining a

license.

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And in particular, I think that was probably the new part of licensure.

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So that was one of the things that when all of those states gathered that they talked

about in terms of like what should a test be and

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can they become more standardized again to help later with that mobility.

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So you mentioned obviously the new edition of testing.

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Could you talk a little bit, tell us about sort of the early days of apprenticeship?

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Obviously today, and I'm jumping to today, we have the architectural experience program,

the AXP, which really is a way of documenting or tracking how people are having experience

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in firms and really learning sort of on the job in practice.

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What are the origins of that experience component?

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Apprenticeship has been as part of architecture almost from the beginning, right?

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Like even if you're studying the classics like I did in architectural history, you you

learn about the various cathedrals in Europe and the famous architects that created them

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and the apprentices that they trained and then went on to create other arts that they are

known for.

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So in terms of its general history, it's been very integral into the training of

architects, you know, as long as we've been talking about significant buildings.

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And as they considered licensure, no one wanted to lose that part.

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know, a lot of references, obviously Frank Lloyd Wright started his schools, but also

apprenticeship-like programs as well that over time people started to replicate.

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But I mean, nothing really replaced sort of that like one-on-one training that you had

with someone more experienced than you, who then passed on the knowledge and skills.

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So that's sort of establishing those sort of three main threads, if you will, of

licensure.

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So thinking about that early days, and let's ballpark this from sort of 1920 through to

56, as you can pick a mental date Amanda, what did the early years of licensure look like

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and what kind of standards or programs existed?

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Not a lot on a national level.

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Everything was really done state by state, which is again, one of the reasons that, you

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They were still doing it at an individual level.

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And, you know, as Enghar kind of officially got off the ground in the 1920s and 30s, they

were looking for advice, but they were still doing their own thing originally and kind of

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slowly organically started to

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coalesce around certain ideas and standards.

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thinking about that NCARBS evolution, which presumably happened in tandem with that and

emerged from that landscape, how have NCARBS programs evolved since their initial

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conception?

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they've evolved a lot.

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The exam, course, has been, as it was, the newest part of the licensure process, right?

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Like, that's where NCARB has, I think, helped the jurisdictions the most and where they

always had the most alignment in that, you know, again, not just for the initial

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licensure, but, you know, NCARB's role has also been about the reciprocal licensure.

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So being able to move from state to state has always been very important.

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They recommended test syllabus for the states as they

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developed their own test so that there's still a consistent foundation for them even if

their question development was a little different.

310

They maintain that up until and then there was this, hey, shouldn't we have a national

exam?

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And that's kind of the 40s and the 50s.

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And we started to try and do that before really in the 1960s that they settle on actually,

no, here we go.

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This is going to be that first one that we're all going to take.

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And then

315

And that has evolved and that is today the one requirement that is consistent for every US

licensing authority.

316

We call them jurisdictions, but states, everyone is taking that same exam today.

317

Even as NCARB has changed it, the states have evolved with us and that remains that

consistent component.

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And historically, what about education?

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What's NCOB's relationship been to education as a program?

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So originally in the 1940s, Enghart was a founding member to create the National

Architectural Accrediting Board or NAB.

321

And along with the American Institute of Architects and the Association of Collegiate

Schools of Architecture founded.

322

And that was really the beginning of the accreditation process for schools of architecture

and kind of linking accreditation to a standard for licensure.

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Now, states have been

324

hit or miss on whether it has been a requirement.

325

Some went all in and said, yes, you must go to an accredited school of architecture.

326

Some were like, yeah, like you can go to an accredited school of architecture, but we're

not quite like, this apprentice piece and you don't have to.

327

So I would say in terms of EngHarb, while we've always been supportive of accreditation

and been a founding member of accreditation and certainly historically recommended in

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terms of like,

329

requirement for licensure and official requirement for NCARB certification, which becomes

the passport for mobility, it's actually probably been one of our most controversial

330

requirements in that we didn't actually make it a requirement until around 1980.

331

And even once we did, there's still a history of states feeling, it shouldn't be

mandatory.

332

There should still be these other ways.

333

So just thinking about, so that's this timeline.

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So NCAR founded in 1919, we celebrated our centennial in 2019.

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What are the other big milestone dates?

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Are there anything else there that we should be mindful of or ballpark kind of timeframes?

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I mean, we didn't talk about kind of the evolution of experience, right?

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There was apprenticeship where we left it to the firms, but there was essentially a

movement in the 70s that became the intern development program known today as AXP or the

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Architectural Experience Program.

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So like that was another one that we left for, you know, states to decide on their own how

they wanted to, but then they asked NCARB to kind of create a standard.

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They created the intern development.

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program in the 1970s, and there was probably slow adoption of that until the 90s, but it

is now also, similar to the exam, a more universal accepted demonstration of competency

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for experience.

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Well, Amanda, thank you for sharing with us a sort parted history of NCARB and the origins

of licensure in the US.

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You took us through from sort of establishment of professional societies in the 1850s

through to the NCARB establishment, the way licensure has evolved somewhat.

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Is there anything else out there that you think listeners might be surprised to learn

about sort of this evolutionary process and how licensure came to be in the US?

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think that it's always been evolving, right?

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And maybe it has been a little more thinking about those three E's specifically, but it

hasn't stayed stagnant.

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And they do want to evolve with the times, right?

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The exam for a very long time was drawing, paper and pencil drawing.

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And obviously today everyone is taking it on a computer and trying to evolve with how

people are practicing architecture today.

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And that is something that the NCARB members, which are the state boards of architecture,

has really looked to NCARB to help them stay with the profession and making sure that when

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they're issuing a license, it is for people competent to practice based on how practice is

happening today.

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I'm going to infer something from your comment there, which is though, as we talk about

pathways to practice and as we talk about the evolution of NCOP's programs, we shouldn't

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feel like this is a new thing and something that's sort of a massive U-turn from our

history because the reality is that our programs have been evolving over time and this may

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be just the next iteration of evolution to help keep us current and up to date with

everything that's happening in practice.

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I feel like I stole your thunder there Amanda.

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Have you got any final thoughts for us?

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I do not.

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Well, Madhav, thank you so much for joining us today.

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Really appreciate it.

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And we look forward to speaking to you again at some point in the future.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for having me.

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So Mada walked us through the late 19th and early 20th centuries when building collapses,

fires and other tragedies prompted states to begin regulating who could call themselves an

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architect.

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We talked about how education, experience and examination, the three traditional pillars

of licensure developed over time and how NCARB was formed to help bring consistency,

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mobility and rigor to a state-based licensure system.

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Most importantly,

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Amanda reminded us that licensure has never been static.

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It has always evolved alongside practice, technology and society.

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I think that's the key takeaway.

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Licensure wasn't created overnight and it hasn't stayed the same for over a century.

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The changes we're exploring through Pathways to Practice aren't a departure from history,

they're part of a long tradition of evolution.

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In our next episode, we'll shift from history to critique as we take a closer look at the

current licensure system and ask a tough but necessary question.

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If licensure exists to protect the public, where is it falling short today?

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Well, that wraps up our introduction to Pathways to Practice.

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Be sure to subscribe, give us a rating and review, and if you found this useful, please do

us a favour and share it with a friend.

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Thanks for listening.

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We'll see you next time on the Encom Podcast.