Recorded live on Lumpen Radio 105.5 FM, Saturday, September 12, 2026

A teacher looked at her painting in front of the whole class and called it a knowledgeable failure. She took it as a compliment.

Chicago painter Megan Williamson has been painting for decades and is nowhere near finished figuring out what painting can do. From a hundred Zoom portraits to a room full of circus figures, her work is about looking, searching, and following an idea wherever it goes.

What We Talk About

• What a teacher meant when he called her painting a knowledgeable failure, and why she now tells that story to her own students
• Why the circus, and what an E.E. Cummings quote and a nun have to do with her new exhibition
• How a hundred Zoom portraits during the pandemic changed what she knew about painting people
• The unexpected turn: what she does when she has no idea what's going to happen in the studio, which is more often than you'd think

If you love hearing an artist talk honestly about not knowing, this episode is for you.

Chapters:

• 00:12 - Live, Unedited Conversation Begins

• 01:12 - Interview Begins — Megan Williamson, Chicago Painter

• 12:54 - Studio Companion: My Dog Tao Teo

• 20:19 - From Classroom to Studio: How Teaching Shapes Her Art

• 30:43 - Ad Break — The Inner Guide: Finding Answers Within

• 42:11 - Learning to Be Brave — Childhood, Horses, and Early Lessons

• 48:44 - From Coloring Pages to a Calling: Teacher Memories

• 59:30 - Closing Remarks — Exhibition Details & How to Follow Megan

All about Megan Williamson

You're gonna love Megan!

She's a painter who is genuinely still curious after decades of doing this. Her work has been exhibited nationally and internationally, and this October she has a solo exhibition at the Swope Art Museum in Terre Haute, Indiana, titled Damn Everything But the Circus, after an E.E. Cummings line. She studied at Knox College and the New York Studio School, teaches landscape painting, and keeps a studio here in Chicago.

Things We Mentioned

• Damn Everything But the Circus, Swope Art Museum, opening October
• Her hundred Zoom portraits project
• Knox College and the New York Studio School
• Gabriel Laderman, the teacher behind the knowledgeable failure
• Risha Brown Inner Guide Podcast

Connect with Megan Williamson

• IG: @meganwilliamson_art
• Megan’s Website

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Episode Credits

Produced, Hosted, and Edited by Stephanie Graham

Lyrics: Queen Lex | Instrumental: Freddie Bam Fam | Cover Art: Emma McGoldrick

Before we start, this episode was recorded live at 105.5 FM Lumpen Radio, where nosey AF goes live on the air every second and fourth Saturday of the month.

What you're hearing is the conversation as it happened.

No edits, no retakes.

Still curious and very fun, but honestly, sort of scary.

So settle in and enjoy this conversation on nosey af.

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Hey, Stephanie.

Graham is noseyAF WLPN and HD1 Chicago 105.5 FM Lumpen radio.

Hi, Chicago.

Happy Saturday.

It is beautiful outside.

I hope y' all are enjoying your Saturday as I am excited to be here with you.

So today I am talking with Chicago painter Megan Williamson.

Megan has been painting for decades, but she's far from finished figuring out what painting can do.

From her hundred zoom portraits project to her imaginative circus paintings, her work is all about looking, searching, and following an idea wherever it takes her.

Her work has been exhibited nationally and internationally, and this October, she'll have a solo exhibition at the Swope Art Museum.

Megan, welcome to the show.

Hi.

Thanks for having me.

Yes.

I'm excited to speak with you about painting, imagination failure, and what happens when, you know, you open your door to a whole new practice.

Yeah.

You know, it's been a minute since I've been here because I do the show here twice a month, but can we talk for a second about Dolly Parton?

RIP yeah.

RIP yeah.

What a great lady.

Oh.

And an amazing philanthropist as well as an amazing artist.

Yes.

She wrote over 3,000 songs.

Unbelievable.

Unbelievable.

And did it with a smile in.

Such glamour and grace and a big old laugh.

Yeah.

She was always in on the duck.

She turned things around on people.

She was amazing.

Oh, yeah.

I really love that.

For sure.

You know, let's start with a simple question.

Maybe.

So I know you say that.

There's one thing you know for certain.

You are a painter.

Yes.

What does being a painter mean to you beyond just like, you know, canvas and paintbrush.

That's a simple question and a good question and a hard question.

I think when I was younger, I wanted to be an artist.

I always wanted to be a painter.

And I didn't know any artists, and I didn't know how to do it.

Exactly.

But looking back, I realized that every kind of step in the way or change or job I got, I would always put in the question, but can I.

Can I still paint?

And then after a while, that question was gone.

And it's just so much a part of me that I built a life around it.

Yeah, it just becomes who you are.

I've had a million jobs, but I've only had one career.

I always say, yeah, just keep going.

Can I paint?

Can I paint?

Because I.

It's just how I make sense of the world.

Does it come naturally?

Yeah.

I was a visual learner, for sure.

I can almost remember the diagram I did when we dissected frogs in high school.

Like, if I could see it and draw it, don't forget it.

When I had to learn Italian, I had to write it all out because I can't do things by ear very well.

So I'm just very visual.

And I'm also of a generation where they teachers would say, oh, you're good at that.

Do more of it.

Not like, hey, here's how you can think visually in math or history or, you know, so I'm not complaining.

It's just my bath.

Yeah, it's a great place to be.

You've described painting as a vehicle for self awareness, beauty, and connecting with the ineffable.

What are you searching for when you're in the studio?

Not something I can put into words too easily.

It's like I have a desire to see something, and I. I don't know what it is while I'm painting it.

Like, I'm working through the question that I have about something or the thing that's puzzling me, and I figure it out by painting things.

And, you know, I've done a lot of different kinds of paintings.

And so you might think that a landscape along the Sag canal, the calcite canal, isn't necessarily answering a question, but I had to put myself there and paint it.

And kind of when I'm painting, I work perceptually.

I don't go abstract very often.

And so I've always thought that somehow the poetry kind of comes in sideways, like when I'm thinking about composition and color and the edge of the canvas and all those things that I love about painting.

Then this other thing comes in that I only know about during the painting or after.

Here's a question about painting.

You know, if you make a mistake, what happens?

It just feels so final, like, paint, brush to canvas.

Well, I think.

Can you erase?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

I work in oil.

There's all kinds of things you can do.

But it does take a long time to learn how to paint.

And you have.

For me, I just was really comfortable just falling flat on my face, like, pushing it, pushing and pushing until I lost the painting.

And I remember someone asking me, when are you gonna stop ruining your paintings?

And I said, I'm learning where the edge is.

I wanna be right at the edge.

But I did start drawing using India ink on this clay coat paper.

And so I stopped drawing for a couple years.

Cause I just wanted to focus on color.

And when I came back to drawing, instead of it being charcoal or pencil or anything, I. I almost feel like I was using my left hand and it's India ink.

And doing it observationally, there's no room for much error.

So it would be like I would take a deep breath.

Yeah.

And I'd say, go.

And then my whole concentration was there.

And it was intense.

And, you know, I make a mistake, I get another piece of paper.

But really deep.

Seeing.

It seems.

I mean, I know you're taking a deep breath, but it still seems like.

Does your hand shake or anything like that?

Sometimes, yes.

Oh, my God.

And some of the drawings were very loose.

And some like.

I became obsessed with the Cal Sag one summer.

I kept coming down to paint and draw the bridges, which are insanely complex.

Yeah.

And I really kind of was holding my breath, but I. I just couldn't let them go.

So complex.

And they have an internal structure that has to do with physics and gravity.

But the way I was seeing a bridge through a bridge, through a bridge was something else.

Yeah.

Fun.

Yeah.

Fun and scary for the.

Is it a lay person who doesn't.

Who doesn't paint like myself?

You have this story that I love about being told.

One of your paintings was a knowledgeable failure.

What did you hear when that phrase like that made you think.

You know what?

Okay, I'll take that.

And I'm actually in the right direction.

Yeah.

You might think it would have sent me running, but I was doing a summer program with Queens College out on Long island on this 600 acre estate.

We called it Art Jail because the driveway was three miles long.

Oh, my goodness.

I know.

And we were just out there, and I was with a lot of east coast kids that were getting their BFAs and their MFAs.

And I went to a great little college, Knox College in Galesburg, Illinois.

And I had one teacher from New York.

And I just went there and I felt like, I don't know what's going on.

But I worked.

My MO is I work really hard.

And the teacher, Gabriel Laderman, was this amazing guy, and he got mad at everyone one day and he was yelling, you know, you're just coming here.

You're doing what you know how to do.

You're not trying what I'm talking about.

You're not, you know.

And he was just giving everybody.

And then he'd say, oh, this painting.

It's doing it.

This painting.

And then he pointed at mine and he said, whose is this?

This is knowledgeable failure.

And I was like, all right, all right.

Didn't have to, you know, just fell down in the direction of Mecca.

Did you feel called out?

Yeah, but I was fine with it.

Okay.

I was.

I was really happy, actually.

Weirdly, like, that was a high point.

And when I teach, if I teach the landscape painting especially, I'll tell students that story.

And then at some point, you know, usually I go and I teach for, like, a month or five or six weeks.

And at some point, everybody runs up against it.

You know, what am I doing?

Or I used to know how to do something and now I can't.

And I just point to myself and say, knowledgeable failure.

It's just.

You have to.

You know, it's through the work that you figure out who you are.

And if I'm just painting what I expect to see, I don't wanna do.

Sounds like it's so easy for you to come against these bumps and just walk into this wall, back up and walk to another place.

It's been a long time coming.

I used to feel like I would be.

This was my image.

I was on a platform plateau.

Like, I'd figured something out about painting.

And I'd be like, great.

And I'd paint and paint until I hit a.

You know, a big mountain or something.

And then I'd have to climb up, you know, just holding on by my fingernails to figure something out.

And then I get to another plateau, and I'd be like, great.

And paint until, you know.

And so after that happened, for a while, I just understood.

That's the question.

That's the, you know, the next thing you need to figure out.

Because I never wanted to be someone who painted the same paintings.

I have a lot of questions.

Yeah, this thing about failure, you know, I was.

Before we came here, I was meeting with, like, another group of artists that, you know, we're all, like, making goals.

And everyone's like, I want to make an exhibition, but, you know, or somebody else is like a kid.

Or they're like, I want to make this like pop up restaurant thing.

And they're like, but what if nobody comes?

You know, like they would deem it like a failure.

What do you have any thoughts around, like a failure that you think that we aren't speaking about?

You know, enough.

Yeah, I have a lot of paintings in my house, in my studio.

I know other artists too, who will suddenly be coming up to a show and they have no work.

I'm like, I could have 12.

So there was coming to terms with the idea that, yeah, they go in the painting rack and a painting might find a place to be 10 years from now or never, or.

But there's enough flowing through.

It did when I was younger.

It did get.

So if the work wasn't finding walls and homes that I'd start feeling backed up a little bit, like I don't have room for more paintings.

So I've had a lot of creative ways of getting art out in the world.

But I will tell you, I was in Wyoming once.

I was out there as a visiting artist at a college.

And the guy who brought me out had had a big fight with someone else in the department and he.

They shipped my work, they paid for me to go and teach and flew me out and it was great.

And we went and none of the other guys, students came, so it was not well attended.

And then this artist went to get his wife and children and I was left standing alone in this big gallery.

Nobody was there.

And I thought, all right, I haven't melted into a puddle.

This is everyone's fear.

But I did leave and go to the bathroom so no one would find me.

And then people came and it was fine, but it was that.

Yeah, what if you do something and it doesn't resonate?

Yeah.

I feel like it's like everyone's childhood fear of, like, what if no one comes to my party?

My party, it just travels with us forever.

And you're always like, oh, my gosh.

Well, it's just me and my dog.

You know, he pretty much likes everything, so.

Oh, my gosh.

So cute dogs.

Huge.

Yeah, I always have huge dogs.

What's your dog's name?

Tao Teo.

And he is a.

Well, when I got him, they thought he was a year and a half.

He was a poodle something.

And then I found out he's a bernadoodle and he's.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, he's 100 pounds.

Whoa.

I thought he was full grown at 65.

Whoa.

And you know, I have been in wicker park for like 30 years, so.

And, you know, I just wanted to feel safe in my studio.

So I always wanted a big dog that would bark, but then they're always like these weird poodle mixes.

So.

Remember one time the mail carrier came and I'm holding my big poodle and she goes, that's what's been barking at me.

And also landscape.

What's you trying to say?

Yeah, exactly.

But landscape painting in the city.

I felt like just having a dog around gave me.

I never had a bad experience.

I have so many funny and lovely stories about people coming up to me when I'm working.

Yeah.

But I wanted that extra set of eyes.

Wow.

When you go out to paint, do you bring.

Is that called plein air painting?

Okay.

So much slapping.

Yeah.

It's like camping.

Wow.

You have to bring all this stuff and jars and something breaks.

And if it's not windy, it's buggy.

If it's not buggy, it's, you know, whatever.

But like camping, when you get up in the morning and you're in this amazing place.

So I got it down to kind of a system.

I pack everything the night before and then just get up and go.

Okay.

But I spent about 12 years here in Chicago painting at the intersection of nature and infrastructure.

And that took me all over the city.

But before that, you know, I was teaching plein air painting in the middle of Italy in these incredibly beautiful places.

I know that I will see folks identify as plein air painting, as plein air painters.

If is a plein air just mean open, like you're painting outside.

Yeah.

Okay.

You've got.

You're out in the landscape at the.

Same time, like painting.

Not working from a photograph or memory or.

Yeah.

Just sitting there getting bitten by bugs.

Yeah.

Getting it done also.

But so nice to be outside.

Right.

Do you listen to music or anything or.

Yeah, yeah, I will.

I love it.

I know that you've also said painting isn't about talent, it's about the search.

Yep.

You know, can you explain a little bit more what that means?

Well, I.

Over the years, you know, I did a program with Queens College.

I did a program with Yale.

I did.

You know, I've taught in a bunch of places and sometimes talent gets in students way because they know how to do something.

They get feedback like, oh, that looks just like that, or excuse me.

And then they stop.

They're not used to struggling.

And I don't want to say struggle like it's a bad thing.

Not a bad thing.

Like it's some torturous thing that you have to do.

But it is about, like, really being present and being okay with making a lot of mistakes, because that's how.

That's how I work.

It breaks down that perfectionism.

You think, like, if you are a perfectionist, oh, Lord, should we be a painter?

You can be totally.

I am obsessive about some things that you may not know looking at my painting, but, like, I paint figures again.

And I started taking life drawing classes at night when I was in high school and all through college and all through two years of art school in New York.

And then the model took a pose.

The summer program I was doing with Yale, and I was like, yeah.

And I didn't work from the model for, like, 20 years.

And now I paint them out of my imagination, but I know how the body's put together.

Yeah.

You know, is teaching, like, a big part of your practice?

You think, well, here's my.

You know, you kind of make these different.

You make your own roads.

And for a while, my claim to fame was I got into Yale's MFA program, but I didn't go.

Okay.

And that was when, you know, and I'd had two years at the New York Studio School.

I had amazing people, and I just didn't want.

I was starting to hear myself think, and I didn't want to go into academia.

You know, I just realized that I don't know if it was the best decision.

Kind of look back, I'm like, sorry, you got into Yale.

And you said, no.

So teaching comes in all different ways.

Actually.

I teach at this place up California and Paulina.

I work at Refugee one.

I work with teenagers from all over the world.

So.

Cool.

But I started doing that because I'd worked at a coat drive there, and afterward I was running up and down stairs and folding coats.

And afterward I talked to the volunteer coordinator, and I said, you know, I'm an artist.

I can teach from kindergarten to graduate school.

Do you need.

If you need something like that?

And I still.

I have this image of her holding her clipboard up to her chest, and she said, teenagers.

Can you do teenagers?

Yep, Yep.

And it's all in a continuum, what I tell graduate students.

I'm also talking about kindergartners.

I do.

I.

For about 10 years, I did arts integration in the CPS.

So I come in and team, build and team teach a core academic subject with art integrated into it.

Okay.

So that was, you know, unexpected.

Yeah.

I didn't set out, but I knew this kindergarten teacher.

She really wanted me to Work with her.

And then, oh, Lord, she was amazing.

And we just hit it off.

I love having small children do projects that are bigger than them.

And also, they were learning about trees.

And one day I made sure they all had real sketchbooks and pencils without erasers, because.

And I would tell them, you can't make a mistake in your sketchbook.

And I would ask them, and they'd chant back, why?

Because you're just thinking, you know.

And so we all were sketchbooks, and I had them all bring in a stick.

So some kids brought in, you know, just a pencil, basically.

And others were practically dragging in branches.

Right.

So we all sat in a circle, and we drew the one in front of us and passed it around.

Passed around.

And then I took a bunch of them and I put them in a vase in the middle of the room, and I had them draw the spaces in between first.

Oh, very cool.

Like, we look for a triangle, and we look for a circle, and then we did the drawings.

And I love this because I came back the next time and the kindergarten teacher said they were playing the negative space game on the playground.

And I said, oh, do tell.

She said, I don't know what they were doing, but a bunch of them were sitting on a bench, and one would run up and yell, negative space.

And wedge themselves in between two kids.

I was like, my work here is done.

This is a math concept.

This is a very sophisticated art concept.

Yes.

At kindergarten, they're like, I know what negative space is.

Yeah.

It's like, they can definitely handle a lot of complex things.

I'll talk to teenagers about that.

I'll talk to.

Yeah.

Graduate students.

That's.

It's all on a continuum.

That's just what I love.

I talk about and teach.

Yeah.

And what do you bring from teaching into this, into your studio?

Because I know you've been a student of some great teachers as well, Particularly.

Is it Nick Corone?

Nick Corone, yes.

He was the Eye for the Stable Gallery.

He was a painter, Abex.

Kind of between the original Abex and the second generation, but.

So he was an artist.

Really good friends with Rothko and Pollock.

Oh, wow.

He gave Cy Twombly his first show.

He gave Bob Rushenberg his first show.

He gave John Graham his first show.

So he was just.

He's hooking folks up.

Yeah.

But I think teaching for me is.

Is.

You have to know your subject in another way.

My very first teaching job was at Nick's school in Italy for six weeks.

And I just like, all right, let's Go.

Yeah.

I was really good at getting people set up, but one time I was just staring off, and I said, okay, think about ultramarine blue.

And then you just scumble some cobalt across it.

And I'm looking up and I can see it, and I look over and all the students are looking at me blankly, like.

And.

And I was like, oh, maybe I better paint that for you.

But I had to put in words, you know, and then also finding out what problem they were having, I'd go in and help them and take it apart and really learn a lot.

It's very grounding, and especially with all these different gigs I do, you know, puts me in the community.

Yeah.

And, you know, artists are solitary beings.

I was telling you earlier, it's just me and my dog alone in a room, and he thinks everything's a good idea.

Yeah.

It's good to go out and talk.

To some people, but you also get to be, like, a part of, like, a lineage of.

Absolutely.

Of teaching and of painting in that way, Right.

Absolutely.

I had some amazing teachers, and I've been able to.

Yeah.

Pass things on.

It's kind of like I'm a certain kind of jazz musician.

You know, maybe it's not everybody's thing, but it's deeply embedded in our culture, this idea.

And we are also really visual beings.

So I think the disservice has been that people's art experience ends very young.

I know teachers have told me that in grade schools, in classrooms, the kids all figure out who are the artists, who are the good ones, and they start falling off.

And learning how to render is just a skill, and then you take that skill and you can do something.

But so many people have been defeated by not knowing how to just, why can't I draw that vase of flowers?

I can see it.

Yeah.

But it's like, you don't think sitting in front of a piano, you should be able to play.

Right.

You can make sounds, but you're always going to make the same sounds.

Yeah.

So I think that's been lost a little bit.

And people will tell me they found out I'm a painter.

And I cannot tell you how many young people have said, well, I draw stick figures, and I hold their hands and I say, no one wants to draw stick figures.

Yes, I can show you.

And I use the analogy that I play the ukulele poorly, enthusiastically, and just for myself with my friend.

It always makes people laugh.

And I'm like, that's all I want to give people about drawing.

Just, like, a little bit of, like, just so you can be happy.

And there's all this neuroscience about your hand and making marks so that if you take notes and you write them out, you have so much more memory of the process because you have to break down what someone's saying and turn it into a note than just typing.

And so there's all just this physical stuff.

And even I was telling one of the kids at Refugee one that I had found out if you doodle when you're at, like, someone's doing presentation or lecture.

Yeah, you are.

You're retaining more information because just the act of kind of drawing and listening.

And I said, I wish I could tell my high school teachers I was paying attention.

And she said, can you?

And I'm like, no, I'm old, not around.

But that is.

It's also how I calm myself.

If I'm really nervous, I just start doing cross hatches.

Okay, I'll fill a page.

That's a really good idea.

Talking to the insurance company when there's a problem, I'm just like, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

You're sitting there on hold and.

Yeah.

When I was in school, I feel like my teachers.

If you didn't draw what they wanted you to draw, then you were not good at drawing.

No.

Then they weren't good teachers.

Yeah.

Now I'm starting to think, like, yikes.

Like, I don't want to put my teachers on blast, but.

Well, if you have, you know, 30 kids every hour, all day long, you're gonna limit what you can teach.

But I think, you know, just using it, like any knowledge base, hopefully it opens you up.

Yeah.

I had a beer with a friend of mine.

She married an astronomer, and we all called him an astrologer because no painter thought, yeah, Mary's an astronomer.

He goes all over the world.

He uses those giant telescopes.

And we were out having a beer and I said, doug, tell me about black holes.

And he was kind of, oh, that's what everybody wants to know about.

It's such a small part of the universe.

But he walked me through it.

It was fascinating.

And the next day, I told my husband.

I was like, I know about black holes.

And he said, what do you know?

And I'm like, nothing.

But I could follow him, you know, I think we're all kind of trying to figure out the universe, you know?

Yeah.

At some point you stop painting, right?

Did you ever stop painting?

You've been painting the whole time.

Have you done other modes of art?

No, I'm pretty much.

Well, I started out as a ceramicist Okay.

I love that.

But no, I just am obsessed.

Wow.

I've done, you know, huge things and tiny things.

Like the show that's coming up, the biggest painting is.

It's a triptych.

It's 5 by 10ft.

And then I'll also work 5 by 7 inches.

Wow.

I have banners.

I have a 24 foot sheer banner.

That was a piece I did for a terrain installation and they want it for the museum.

Oh, cool.

Cool.

It's got all these circus figures falling down and you hang it up and it's very strange and wonderful.

Yeah.

I'm so excited to learn more about the circus figures.

Why the circus?

Yes.

Yeah.

Why the circus?

I mean, I know we're, you know, a few minutes out before my break, but.

Yeah.

Why?

Why the circus?

I don't know.

I will tell you that I have worked perceptually for decades.

Landscape's still life.

I went to the New York Studio School.

We drew from the model four hours a day.

You know, I worked with these abstract artists, but it was very much about how do you make a space in a rectangle?

Like, how do you use the whole rectangle?

And I always worked perceptually, even though I had these abstract teachers.

And how much time I'll leave you hanging.

Oh, great.

So I had an earworm in my.

I couldn't.

Like nothing I'd ever had before.

And occasionally I draw a pain out of my imagination.

But it was Bob Dylan's A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall.

Okay.

And I just.

I just went and did this giant drawing of it to just get all the images out of my head because it's such a visual song.

It's, you know, where have you been, my blue eyed son?

What have you done?

I've seen a home in the valley Meet the dank dark prison A ladder of water.

You know, just things like that.

So did this big drawing.

Someone came and bought it.

Oh, rarely happens.

So I was like, great, I'll do a big painting.

And it was terrible.

But I always have these little canvases around.

And so I wound up doing a suite of images from this one song.

And there was no turning back after that.

Oh, wow.

I love that.

It was, you know, when you.

When I don't know what's going to happen in the studio.

That was a huge one.

And I thought, you know, someone's going to knock on the door and say, ma', am, yeah, You're a figurative painter.

What are you doing with this stuff?

And I just.

It was, yeah, an exciting place.

Yeah, it was.

Is the word intuitive?

That's part of it, absolutely.

But you also have to have a.

A language and tools, and you want to stay intuitive and stay open and stay fearless like a child.

Yeah.

I always hear, like, I've had teachers tell me, like, I'm going to teach you the rules, and then you will break them and make your own rules.

And I like.

I like that a lot because.

Yeah, you sort of get to, as you say, get to build your own language and your own process and make it fun.

Make it fun.

Yeah.

Fun.

How come art, like, we all lost it.

We're so serious.

And I will say to students, I'm like, remember, pleasure is here too.

Yeah.

You know, and it's.

It's just, you know, covers all the bases.

It feels like it's just so much at stake, you know, it's like we're paying for these college classes or these workshops, you know, it's not, you know, if it's not a lot of money we've spent on them, you know, it's our time, our commute.

So it's.

Yeah, it's a lot at stake to get there.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it was scary.

Yeah, it is scary.

Can you learn doodling?

Yes.

Oh, you can?

Okay.

Because, yeah, sometimes I will doodle.

And I'm like, I'm tired of making these same shapes over and over again.

I have two people, they're both well advanced in their careers, and I was having breakfast with one woman.

She said, I don't want to take a class every Tuesday.

I just.

Do you know someone, not you, who could teach me how to doodle better?

And I said, me, I can teach you.

She comes with her friends once a month for two hours.

Oh, and like, I was teaching them how to draw asparagus because I have asparagus in my house.

And now the little leaves get closer and closer, and it becomes a point and a spear.

And Cezanne says everything is a sphere, a cylinder, or a cone, and you can break it down.

And they are so happy to learn how to draw an asparagus.

And I love showing them because it's like magic.

Yeah, that does sound like magic.

Well, it's 2:30.

We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back with Megan Williamson.

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We are back with Megan Williamson.

And this has been fun.

Megan, thank you so much for being here.

It has been fun enjoying myself.

Your upcoming Swope exhibition is called this has been controversial.

Do you want to say the name, please?

Yeah, it's.

I found an EE Cummings quote which is damn everything but the circus.

Yes.

And the museum was like, okay, we could do that.

It's E.E.

Cummings somehow.

Yeah.

And it just.

It's such a perfect quote because he's in conversation in this, where I got this quote with a nun who is amazing woman.

And she was just like, yeah, everything that's not in the circle, everything that is inert, everything, you know, we're pushing those aside and what we want is to.

She talks about being in community, being in this circle together, participating in life.

And so the circus in the late 19th, 20th century, for about 100 years, when it would come to town, everything would close down.

Schools, factories, businesses, and everyone in the community went to the circus.

They all participated.

They all wanted to see these marvels and daring acts and exotic animals.

And, you know, I think they were kind of talking about, like, participating in life and being engaged and, you know, scared maybe.

Yeah.

What are folks gonna see at the exhibition?

A lot.

And where is Swope?

Oh, the Swope is in Terre Haute, Indiana.

Okay.

And it's an independent museum and it's American art.

So they were the ones that hosted the project.

I did.

That was 100 portraits I did during lockdown that were 105 by 7 inch port portraits that I did from screen captures on my phone watching people be interviewed or being.

Or the reporters themselves, because everyone was at home.

Yeah.

So it was this kind of complex thing to hang.

But they told me that people spent a lot of time looking at them because I think if they had been photographs of all this, we would, you know, people would have been like, no, but I'm a painter and I don't use photographs.

But I've been painting long enough that I use the photographs as an entry to paint inside, you know, people in their homes.

Like, were they messy?

Were the books on the shelves by color where, you know, liquor cabinet pets would come through all this?

And it just got me through the pandemic because I would do.

I did a hundred of them.

One a day.

Yeah.

And just, I kind of had given it again, just me and my dog and I had given myself this assignment and I, I felt like I was just looking into all these other homes in a way that, you know, we were also hungry for.

So.

So they did that.

They've.

They were closed for a couple years doing this huge renovation.

And now I have.

There's about 2,000 square foot.

So it's a lot of.

Wow.

Yeah.

The big piece that's going is a triptych and it's 10 by 5ft.

I also in, in the midst kind of during, before the pandemic, but through it I one day just decided, oh, I need to have five foot tall banners to advertise the circus from my imagination.

And I, I just started, I have 12 of those and one that's seven feet.

And they're sideshow performers.

And again I'm looking back to late 19th, early 20th century where they would do these just paintings on canvas, just knock them out.

Some are really beautiful, some are very primitive, but it's not something you look at, it's something that draws you in.

So I wanted them to look like they've been knocked out.

Bright color graphics.

So I have a fire eater that's kind of just like a dragon.

And I have a knife thrower and I did a merman high diver and they all have to kind of make me laugh.

So the merman had this suit on hip down.

And then I thought, oh, he needs suspenders because that's going to come off when he hits the wall.

So those will all hang a wall of windows that'll hang in between.

Wow.

Did you like going to the circus yourself?

No, no,.

No.

The circus from your imagination.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, I went when I was a kid, but it wasn't anything that was meaningful to me.

But what happened was, so I did the Bob Dylan series and then somehow that turned into swimmers because I'd been painting all this water for some of the, for some of the images and, and then painting people at night or close up or far away or a swimming lesson.

And then I was Doing people jumping off cliffs.

And these paintings from my imagination all start with a figure.

Okay.

And then I work out what's going on.

And sometimes that figure's gone by the end of the painting.

But I was doing one and it was a little diver.

And I thought, he's not diving, he's falling.

And then I thought this all.

Sometimes things all come at once.

And I thought, oh, it's Icarus.

And I want his fall to be ambiguous.

And I also.

There's a Bruegel painting who's the northern European Renaissance painter who did all the classic subject matters, but all as peasants.

So there's a painting that he did, and people are like driving their horses and plowing their fields.

And then in the background, Icarus is just plopping in the water and no one's noticing.

So that kind of all came to me at once.

And I thought, all right, who can, who can modify his file of trapeze artists?

Of course.

Yes.

And who won't be looking?

Other circus folk.

Yes.

That was like seven years ago.

It's evolved, but it's just joyful and strange and I make things up that people can't even really do.

I have a banner of two women doing ballet on stilts.

Okay.

So it's.

But I think I've been looking at the world for so long and painting it that I can paint a nighttime scene.

I can paint light back lighting a tree.

And I work from the figure for so long that there's a quote that I really like, Picasso said, and it's kind of convoluted, but he said basically, sometimes you paint a door, like for yourself.

Okay.

And I definitely feel like I painted the store and I just kind of like Alice in Wonderland.

I just stepped through and I really was kind of looking over my shoulder.

But working in semi obscurity has its benefits because no one, no one knows.

No one came knocking and saying, we've got buyers waiting for your other work.

And it's just been that I could change that radically in my 50s is kind of insane.

If you were to be a member of the circus, what job would you want to have?

Horses.

I ban horses.

Oh, okay.

And like doing tricks on the horses and stuff.

Uh huh.

Okay.

I maybe, maybe a trapeze artist like that too.

But I.

When I. I think I posted one of the first ones I did and somebody liked it on Instagram that I didn't know.

So I'm like, well, who is that one person?

Yeah.

And she was the singer for Cirque du Soleil.

When they did the whole piece about the history of Mexico.

Okay.

Amazing.

That's amazing.

I know she liked something.

I'm like, yep, I'm with you guys.

I'm in.

Yeah.

But I.

So these paintings out of my head have.

I have a narrative.

It's very clear in my mind what's going on inside this rectangle, but I don't.

I want to leave it open enough so that the viewer can say, oh, I see it this way, or I see this story.

So.

But my narrative is just domestic animals.

No tigers being made to jump through hoops.

Because, you know, politically, I don't vibe with that.

Yeah, I get that.

Me and my dog.

I'm like, what do you think about tigers?

No.

But then, you know, I'm painting, and it's.

It's a.

It's the kind of thing.

And what that meant, culturally, was so exciting.

And part of it was you just worked your way up through the hierarchy.

Couldn't be a Nepo baby and be, like, flying through the air on a trapeze if you didn't know what you were doing.

And there was a whole hierarchy of how you worked your way up from being painted white as a statue to, you know, riding on horses or elephants or whatever it was.

And that some of the biggest stars, they were worldwide stars, and women could make as much or more than men when they were the feature artists.

And I love that.

And it was also a place where people, you know, ran away to the circuit, so.

Because you're kind of an oddball, and I'm kind of an oddball, and, you know, community.

I think I'm painting this community I want to be in.

It's the circus.

I always say it's the circus I want to run away with.

Yeah.

But I.

It's fun.

Yeah.

Horses.

And I realized this a little while ago when I was really young.

I was.

I was sick a lot.

I missed tons of school, and I was really shy, and I was small, but my friend had a pony, and we would just get on it without anybody knowing, and we wasn't even trained, and we, you know, just all these things that.

And then when I was 10, my parents told me if I could make $5 a week, okay, that's how much a lesson costs.

A horseback riding lesson.

It's a long time ago.

They would pay $5.

Now my dad was a public school teacher.

They had no money.

I think they didn't expect me.

But I learned how to make $5 a week all summer long.

I started a preschool in my neighborhood.

I made all my friends help.

I was crazy.

And then I gave lessons.

I would ride on anything.

I get thrown off and get back on.

And so horses made me brave.

And, you know, if you're a small 10 year old girl and you push the horse to pick up its hoof to clean out or get thrown off like that.

And then the other thing that made me brave was painting.

Okay.

And I had enough confidence to move to New York City because that's where the painters were.

Yeah.

And scared and waiting tables and living in crappy apartments.

But it was like, no, there's this thing.

There are these people, there's the school, and they, they're my people.

And it, it, you know, I've gone to Italy, I've taught there.

I've gone to Ireland now.

I love doing it, but it's hard for me personally, except it's painting, so of course I'm gonna do it.

Right.

It's your.

I was in Italy this summer.

I went to Pennsylvania.

I went.

Yeah.

It's just, it's my job.

But it, yeah, it's made me brave.

I can't imagine being thrown off of a horse.

I mean, that's, it's just so far down.

Especially being little.

Like, geez, yeah, but you're little, you're really flexible.

And my experience was either, boom, I'm on the ground, or several times I'd be kind of flying through the air thinking, this is gonna hurt.

But the thing is, when I was younger, they, if you're taking lessons, they make you get back on the horse.

Oh, wow.

There is no.

Like, I would be crying.

No, no.

And they're like, you have to get back on right now.

Yeah.

And they were right.

It was.

That's the best thing to do.

When does the show open?

Oh, yeah, let's get back to that.

No, no, this is all Great.

It opens October 9th.

Oh, okay, I'll be there.

I'm going to give a talk.

And it's up through the third week in January.

Oh, wow.

Which is what's so great about a museum show is it's there because a commercial gallery event got one month to get everything done.

So I'm, I'm really excited about it.

This is my first solo show.

In the museum.

And then in like, a year and a half, it's going to go to Wright State University in Dayton in this beautiful gallery.

And I'm hoping to find other venues.

I want to.

The circus is.

Make it travel.

Yeah.

Like, the circus.

I'm going to build a, you know, a wagon, get my horses, drive it around.

But I. I'm really excited to show it there.

And just.

So.

Oh, I got a D case.

A little D case grant to do, like, a catalog coloring book.

Okay.

Sort of.

Yeah, I know.

Amazing.

I've been turned down so many times.

I know, right?

We all have.

Yeah.

So.

But I got.

And I think it was because.

So I have this thing that I'd like to, you know, welcome people to the party, reach out, like, teaching or teaching someone how to doodle or, you know, just the joy of it and to really, you know, try and give it enough time to experience it on, you know, good painting will open up over time.

Like, when I was younger, I'd say, oh, now I understand Cezanne.

And then a couple years later, I go now.

And to sit in there for a while, it's like, still, stop saying that.

Because I just got.

I became a better painter, and I could see more of what he was doing.

So what this catalog is.

There's an interview in it, there's images, but then in the back, it's like liner notes from albums.

Oh, very cool.

So it opens up and it's drawings of nine of the sideshow performers, the big banners.

And it's put on paper that.

So you could hang it up like a poster, but we're using paper that you can paint on it.

Watercolor or oil pastel.

And I'm really encouraging people to say, okay, the fire eater should be orange or purple or, you know, and just, like, feel your way in and.

And enjoy it.

Yeah.

Enjoy yourself.

I'm always trying to get people.

I'm like, come on, this is.

It's the best.

Yeah, I.

The thing about painting is, you know, you see it in a second, but it evolves over time.

So I've always wanted to curate a show and have it sponsored by La Z Boy.

Okay.

So every painting could have, you know, you crank back and you just have a beer or a coffee, and just.

Your assignment is to sit and look and be calm.

I love that.

I even love, like, I feel Disney World used to have, like, those rides where it would, like, just sort of glide you from, like, video through video.

And I'm like, that could totally be it that you're like, forced to look at.

Oh, right.

Because forced to look at this painting, and then we can hit our button and glide to the next one.

All right.

We'll collaborate.

We'll reach out to Disney.

Okay.

Yeah.

I want it to be in a water.

Talk to lazy boy.

Oh, yeah, they have water.

Yeah.

Not a train.

And also, I think that the circus, it's kind of like a Trojan horse, because who doesn't want to see what's happening with the circus?

Yeah.

I mean, it's a little bit.

Sometimes I get a little, like, oh, it's sentimental, or it's, you know, kind of schlocky.

But I'm sorry.

Roux painted the circus.

Calder did all the amazing things with the circus.

Arthur Dove, you know, Degas.

It's an intense.

Yeah.

You're in the company.

Yeah.

So it's okay.

I'm not illustrating a thing that happened.

I'm, like, using all these actions and verbs and people in color to make a thing that's almost moving.

Yeah.

You know, thinking about your coloring with the coloring pages, it made me think just back to this teacher again.

When I was younger, my classmate colored Beethoven's hair green and got in trouble for it.

I'm so sorry for your friend.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

Like, oh, my gosh.

So I just love that you're such a passionate teacher.

Who knows what she was.

You know, I'll give her grace.

Who knows what she was going through.

Yeah, for sure.

She's like, hair is not green.

It was full of lead.

They found out later.

That's why he.

Well, that's de.

They did.

They sequenced his hair, and they only did it because he begged his friends to, you know, why am I going deaf?

And it was.

It was lead in the.

Probably in the ceramics.

Wow.

Yeah.

So kind of my.

Was sort of green sea teacher.

Well, yeah.

I had a friend that was doing arts integration, and she was brought in on a project because there was a teacher who.

It was poetry, and he was working with, like, second graders.

And one little boy said.

Walked up to him and said, what are you?

And he said, I'm a poet.

He goes, no, what are you?

He goes, well, I'm an uncle.

I'm a man.

And the little boy said, I'm a teapot.

And the guy was like, I cannot work here.

And my friend who took over, I was like, oh, my God.

That's such a great starting point.

Yeah, I'm a teapot.

How could you not want to work with the teapot?

Yeah.

Really.

You know, we all have our skills.

You have a calling for it, obviously.

I do.

I really.

Yeah, I think that it is a calling to, you know, educate.

Such a passion.

My father was a lieutenant commander in the Navy.

He was in World War II and the Korean War, and he stayed in the reserves.

But he.

Most of his career was as a CPS high school teacher.

He taught drafting, mechanical drawing and architectural drafting.

And he would say, when I close my door, I light my candle.

It's the best job in the world.

You know, I.

He just couldn't understand why none of us went into teaching.

And it was like, because we were really broke.

Yeah.

There were five of us.

We were all going to go to college.

We drove old cars.

You didn't get new shoes until school started.

And if the CPS was on strike, then you still didn't get new shoes till the strike was over.

Yeah, the strike's over.

Yeah, you don't need them.

Well, I went to college and my dad was on strike and I went around and like, signed up for classes and then I had to pay him and I said, oh, my dad's on strike.

I can't pay you till he's not on strike anymore.

And they went, okay.

Because that was so normal for me.

Yeah.

But I love to teach and actually both my sisters have found their way to teach.

Oh, that's amazing.

It's a.

It's a joyful thing.

It's a hard thing.

But will you be teaching anything while your exhibition's up?

No, I might give a talk to the kids at the university or something.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, no programming there, but I'm gonna be@refugee1 this fall.

I love working with those kids.

And I did a class last summer.

I have this little cabin.

It's in my in laws kind of up there in Northern Wisconsin by Lake Superior.

And so one week I taught high school students at Refugee One, and then the next very next week I was up there teaching high school students in a town of 2,000.

Oh, wow.

And I'm like, in my happy place.

Yeah.

You know, we have a couple weeks before October.

Where can we see your work?

In the meantime, there's a Boom Contemporary is a gallery that has my work on artsy.

Okay, so Boom Contemporary Gallery.

And then there's a gallery here in Chicago that's Kimberly Oliva.

Oh, yes, she's.

Yeah, she was just in my studio this morning.

See Kimberly out and about sometimes.

Yeah, she's.

Oh, she's amazing.

She does great programming and I just can't say enough about her Gallery, but she has some of my work and has a viewing room also on Artsy.

So.

So boom.

Contemporary or olive at gallery on Artsy.

And Artsy is the website just for galleries to show work.

So just go to Artsy and plug in my name and you can see a lot of work.

And also my Instagram is MeganWilliamsonLowercaseArt.

You know, not too hard to find, but there's work there.

And I was looking back through it because I knew I was coming here.

And there's four or five times where I just walk through the studio.

So you can kind of see like.

What I'm working on.

Very cool.

Yeah, I love seeing where people work.

Yeah, me too.

With.

You know, you're preparing for this, the Circus exhibition.

What else are you curious about right now?

Or is it just all that.

Well, okay.

So I was in Italy in June.

I got this gig overseeing two two week artist residencies.

Okay.

And I'd done it before and I used to.

I taught on and off for 10 years.

A long time ago I taught landscape painting there.

And my Italian is starting to come back.

But I went there and I wanted to do this for a long time.

And I brought embroidery materials and I thought, well, I can't paint all day, I'll embroider.

And then I was staying up till 1 o' clock in the morning because it's drawing.

It's another kind of drawing.

Yeah.

So that's something that I'm really exploring.

And I would say I'm actually, I'm the director now.

So I'm running this program for one month every summer.

So that's.

Yeah, there's a learning curve for you.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's in Umbria.

It's near the town of Perugia and it's on an estate.

So someone owns the estate and different groups come through.

And it was my teacher from the studio school who we become friends, started this program about 10 years ago and he's just getting older.

And last year he said, do you want to do one session?

And I said, I like to try and say yes to things.

Yeah.

And then in the winter he said, well, do you want to do two?

And I said, that sounds interesting.

He goes, okay, you're all set.

And then while I was there, he's like, how about you take over?

Oh my goodness.

So that's a.

He did.

He's a good man.

But he also, he asked me to do it because I lived in Italy.

And he said, you know, it's another country and American logic doesn't always work.

And I was.

We were just telling funny stories about living there.

And I had a friend that got ruined.

She's a sculptor.

She fixed it up so she could rent it out so she could have it.

But right before, there was a rusted old car on her property, and she couldn't get rid of it.

She went, you know, to find out, like, how do I get it towed?

And they told her it didn't exist because she didn't have papers for it.

It was her ex husband from, like, 10 years ago.

Oh, wow.

And she couldn't tow it, she couldn't sell it.

She couldn't junk it without papers.

So there was a backhoe on the property, and they buried it.

Oh, my goodness.

And that's what she.

Eddie started laughing, and he was like, yes.

You know what it's like to be in Italy?

I'm like, it's Machiavellian.

It's great.

But last year, I went to the office at the villa, and I wanted to get three envelopes, and the woman said, we don't have envelopes.

They had computers and printers.

And I was like, okay.

She said, I can give you paper you can fold over.

I'm like, right on.

That's how we get here.

I'm good.

I love it.

I think that.

Yeah.

I learn about American logic watching 90 Day Fiance.

You know, when they have the other way, and I'm always like, y' all are just embarrassing us.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You know, we should do have giant glasses of soda filled with ice and.

Yeah.

Or sometimes someone will be either on the program before or this one.

You know what they should do?

I'm like, nope.

Yeah.

Nope.

Nothing.

Nothing.

Nobody's asked your opinion.

Yeah, well, no, I think Americans always want to fix things.

Yeah.

They want it to be better.

And so they're like, you know, it would be good.

I'm like, yeah, the building you're staying in is 17th century.

You know, we're just gonna go with the flow.

Yeah.

Just roll.

I can make some.

You know, I. I told the cook, americans like a lot more vegetables, and we like them al dente.

But that's.

That's about it.

Just.

That's about it.

It's.

It's.

So that's one of the things that I'm definitely learning to do.

I said, yes.

Yeah.

I keep saying yes.

I'm like, okay.

I don't know.

I. Filmmaker friend of mine, I said, he's recovering from an accident.

And I said, I don't know if these things are keeping Me young or making me old that I keep like, yeah, let's do that.

Let's be exhausted and go to Italy and jet lagged and then come back and go to.

It's certainly keeping it interesting.

Yes.

And in February, I'll probably be sitting and whining that nothing's going on.

No, no.

I've been around enough.

I'm like, okay, now is the painting time.

It is nice.

And you can just sort of chill,.

You know, just be in the studio, get back into that rhythm.

Because that's the point of it all.

But also, as you know as well, no fairy godmothers coming and knocking, waving a wand or knocking on your door going, I hear there's an artist back here.

I'd like to help you.

Yes.

Nope.

Got to keep showing up.

And I joke that my.

I can't believe blood runs through my veins because my skin is so thick.

So many rejections.

Oh, my Lord.

Yes.

But I love.

I really admire how painting has been, like, a constant in your life.

I think that that is, like, really cool.

And I don't really.

But I just.

One foot in front of the other.

Yeah.

And I gave up a lot.

You know, the Dalai Lama said, you know what you have accomplished.

You also can say what you didn't do.

You know, I made sacrifices.

They were all things that I said.

Yeah, this is important to me.

But I had a bunch of.

I have so many weird stories.

An auction item for networking business, women to visit women artists studios.

And I got tacked on.

I really didn't know what was happening.

And they came and then they ate at my house.

All these rickety old chairs, and they pulled up in their BMWs and everything.

They could not have been nicer.

But one of them, you know, we're sitting there eating, and she said, I really admire your life.

And I said, I really admire your BMW.

I drive crappy old cars, but that's okay.

Did she laugh?

She did.

She did.

Oh, my gosh.

Well, Megan, this has been such a lovely conversation.

Hi.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, thank you so much.

And congratulations about the exhibition.

And again, for more information about Megan and the exhibition coming up, we can go to MeganWilliamson.com and then also Megan.

Williamson, Art is for Instagram.

Yep.

And if you go to artsy, two galleries will show up that have my different work.

Awesome.

Yeah.

All right, Charles.

Thank you.

It is.

And DM me if you have any more extra questions.

Yeah.

If you want to doodle.

DM you.

Yeah, DM me for doodling.

I love it.

Oh, my gosh.

Well, thank you all.

It is three o'.

Clock.

I hope you all are enjoying your day.

It is beautiful again outside.

We got to take advantage of this Chicago.

So see you guys next time.

Bye.

Do you want to say bye?

I do.

Okay.

Bye.

Bye.