Welcome back to the Movie Wars Podcast as we dive deep into the controversial waters of Zack Snyder's Batman Vs. Superman: Dawn Of Justice. We're continuing our exploration of Snyder's trilogy as James Gunn's "Superman" trailers makes the rounds. This episode explores the divisive nature of the film, sparked by the recent release of James Gunn's Superman trailer, which has reignited discussions about the character's portrayal on screen. Our hosts passionately debate the strengths and weaknesses of the film, focusing on the impact of Jesse Eisenberg's interpretation of Lex Luthor and the underwhelming representation of Doomsday. As they dissect the cinematography, editing, and overall storytelling, they reflect on how Snyder set the stage for a cinematic universe that many believe fell short of its potential. Join us as we navigate through the highs and lows of this superhero epic, revealing insights that may just change the way you view this pivotal film in the DC franchise.

Stoked to feature ads from our friend's Greatest Movie of All-Time Podcast and Shoot The Flick!

Delving into the contentious and multifaceted narrative of Zack Snyder's 'Batman Vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice,' this episode of the podcast offers an in-depth examination of the film's impact and legacy. The conversation begins with the context of the Snyder Trilogy, particularly in light of James Gunn's recent Superman trailer release, setting the stage for a discussion that spans both admiration and critique. The hosts navigate through the film's thematic elements, focusing on the moral dilemmas faced by Batman and Superman and how these reflect on the nature of justice and heroism. They engage in a critical analysis of the much-discussed Martha scene, weighing its emotional resonance against the overall narrative structure of the film.

In addition to thematic explorations, the hosts dissect the performances of the lead actors, particularly Ben Affleck's portrayal of Batman. They discuss how Affleck's physicality and emotional depth contribute to a more complex version of the character, contrasting it with previous iterations. Eisenberg's portrayal of Lex Luthor is also scrutinized, with hosts debating whether his eccentric take aligns with the character's traditional attributes or detracts from the story's weight. Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize the importance of understanding the film within the context of the larger superhero genre and its reception by audiences and critics alike.

As the discussion progresses, the hosts reflect on the cinematographic choices made by Snyder, praising the visual storytelling while also critiquing the pacing and editing of the film. They address how these decisions affect the audience's engagement and emotional investment in the characters. The episode culminates in a collective reflection on the film's place within the DC Extended Universe and what it signifies for future adaptations of iconic characters. Ultimately, this podcast serves as a platform for rich dialogue about the intricacies of storytelling in superhero cinema, inviting listeners to revisit 'Batman Vs. Superman' with a more nuanced perspective.

Takeaways:

• The podcast dives into the controversial aspects of Batman vs. Superman, discussing its divisive nature among fans.
• Host emphasizes that both Batman and Superman have unique character arcs that unfold throughout the film.
• The panel reflects on how Jesse Eisenberg's portrayal of Lex Luthor deviates from traditional interpretations of the character.
• Listeners are reminded of the significance of the Martha scene and its impact on the story's emotional depth.
• The discussion touches on how the film's editing and pacing affect the overall narrative experience.
• The hosts explore the visual and auditory elements of the film, praising the cinematography and soundtrack.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Patagonia
• Papa John's
• AMC

Mentioned in this episode:

Shoot The Flick Podcast

The Greatest Movie Of All-Time Podcast

Thankful for our friends over at The Greatest Movie Of All Time podcast. Brilliant, go check them out.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Movie Wars Podcast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's up? Welcome back.

I say as I show off my Batman tattoo and back cat for what.

We got going on today and what my kids call a stuffy. A Batman stuffy.

You better get the right vowel on that one.

Yeah, yeah. It was next to his pillow. I saw it. He cuddles with that thing.

I love it.

I do.

We can.

If Batman had that kind of love in his life, he would have never become Batman. That's love that only parents and Seth's fandom can give you.

Yes. Well, we continue.

Was that too dark? I feel like maybe that was that too dark. Night.

Oh, boy. Here we go.

Pun city. We are back. Yeah. Stop. Stop. To steal the dawn of something. I had to take a drink.

The dawn of stiffy, stuffy stiffy.

Oh, no. We continue our Snyder trilogy discussion, even though we're going over four films technically intended to be a trilogy.

And today we're doing Batman versus Superman. Dawn of Justice, Ultimate Edition. Ultimate Edition.

Just to be clear, because there was. There was a theatrical version that got put out. I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it either. But it's the one that truly got eviscerated by people.

Then the Ultimate Edition came out, and I'd say for the people who were upset when the original one came out, most of their grievances were fixed in this extra 30 minutes that was added.

So I liked it better. But it wasn't like when I saw the ultimate Justice League version, which to me, I was like, oh, that's a completely different movie.

This makes so much more sense. No, this definitely was added a few scenes. I was like, oh, cool.

Well, this. This was definitely an extended version versus a. An original version of a reshot movie.

Right.

So we'll get into those in the next two weeks. But here we are with BVS Ultimate.

Edition, not to be confused with bbs.

I was like, when you say it like that.

I'm a big fan of Ultimate BVS Vacation Bible school. Yeah.

So where we've been, we just did man of Steel, and actually we kind of went into it thinking this is going to be negative, but we did a six to one. So we. We came out, we had a positive point of view on that.

Yeah.

We enter. This is. This is the interesting part. This is where the Reddit community goes, you know, off the rails with this.

Trilogy, you know, probably the most divisive of the Zack Snyder DC movies. And I say that because there. There were more Divisive movies and more controversial movies that came out, but Zack Snyder did not direct them.

Technically, Seth doesn't know this for sure because he was banned from the Zack Snyder. So there might be more divisiveness.

Specifically the. The SN subreddit.

Oh, okay.

Apparently saying something positive about Zack Snyder and. And chastising someone who is being unnecessarily an asshole is what will get you banned from the Snyder cut subreddit. So you guys, I know.

That's what I went on the vegan subreddit and said I actually had a good steak today. And it was weird.

Suddenly DCS was at your house. It got weird.

Yeah, I love carrots. Don't get me wrong, but I had a good steak today. Damn vegans and their carrots.

I know. Damn. Damn Snyder bros. And they're hating people. Defending Snyder. Oh my God.

Yeah, there's a. There's a.

You didn't defend him, right?

There's a. Some kind of Facebook group that.

Oh, people always ask comedy stand up show related questions and it's a Nashville based and they tag me in it and every time I answer the question I get. My thing gets removed for breaking the codes of conduct for the. So. So many people.

You are a vulgar piece of shit online.

Let's be real. It looks like I'm just not answering. It looks like people are tagging Drew Davis and Drew is like, well, figure it out.

That's why they call it your problems.

That's hilarious.

I promise, if you're reading this because you hate me so much or reading this, what are we. What are we.

The subtitles are on and he puts out a transcript.

If you're reading the transcript and you're like, that's that guy that didn't respond to my. I just want you to know it ails me every day because I did respond.

But for those of you who don't know, while Drew is a completely clean comedian, he's a very verbal piece or vulgar piece of shit online. Oh yeah. Nothing but F words and C words and it's. It's crazy to watch. It's kind of hilarious.

Like, it's hot.

He's brought down entire governments.

Yes.

So you can bring down governments. We haven't heard your. Your rant yet. I don't know. I don't know if there's a transition to it, but I want.

Yeah, and here's the thing. I. The biggest complaint I see about this movie is with the Martha sequence. Okay? When. When. When Batman has literally got a Kryptonite.

Spear to Superman's face. And Superman is just like, look, I don't care what happens, just save Martha. And Batman's like, what? And he's like, save Martha.

Why did you say that name? Why did you.

It's his mom.

Like, that's the. Yeah, I.

That was a perfect play by play.

Thank you.

That was in the movie.

I actually liked yours better than what was in the movie.

Thank you. I figured you would. Here's the thing, okay? This is truly, truly the first time we have have seen a version of Superman this incredibly humanized.

And in this whole movie, Batman is looking at Superman as basically a nuclear weapon level alien that that one tiny little trigger could send everything off the rails and he's just destroying the Earth. This is the first time he. He actually has some ability to realize that even though he's Superman, there is a version of him just like him.

Just like Bruce and Batman, there is a version of this Superman that is a down to earth human being. Okay?

And so all of you fucking people who hate this thing, even though it's not like it was just something stupid, it literally like Zack Snyder and the other writer for the movie realize that both mothers have canonically been named Martha since their fucking inception. And they put it in the movie. If you don't like them are at the scene, then you're a heartless bastard and I hate you.

Wow.

Well, I see where you're coming from.

Wow.

Shall we get going?

I see where you're coming from.

Can I just say.

Can I just say, first of all, this is a safe space to express your opinions. Thank you. Also, I disagree.

Yeah, I know you're a heartless piece of.

And I online especially.

Oh, yeah, of course.

And while I agree with the sentiment and like the why they got to where they were, where these people are paid lots of money to put together good sequences. And that was such a stupid.

I teared up in the theater.

Stupid. Like I teared up too. Tears of agony.

It hit me so hard emotionally to. Because A, I didn't even realize that both of their moms were named Martha until that very moment.

And then B, it's like I said, it's just for the first time because we've seen, we've seen that we have Ben Affleck as Bruce Wayne and Batman, who at this point has been doing this for 20 years. He's seen the death of his best friend and ward Robin at the hands of the Joker.

He's finally at a place where he is saying fuck it and he's tired of the crime. And so he's killing people for the first time on screen for Batman, he's literally gunning people down with guns.

He's tired of that. The visions or did we. Because I don't know.

It's all throughout the movie.

Is he doing it all throughout the movie? I thought I caught that this time. I don't love that, but I'm okay with it.

Again, it's this. It's this version of Batman. Most of the versions of Batman we've seen have been him relatively early on in the career.

We've never seen a fully fledged 20 year veteran Batman.

Yeah.

And so because he's for the first time now seeing this otherworldly threat, because we're assuming that we're sticking with the Batman villains in his Gotham City up until Superman becomes a thing.

And in his defense, he did see man is still really close up where he saw the buildings falling apart, killing his buddies.

So for him, he's seen both Superman and Zod at the same time and can see what Superman could become at the wrong moment. And so, yeah, for him, he's nothing but a threat. He's nothing but a weapon.

And this is the first time in the entire situation where he actually understands there's a human aspect back to this character, which is something that I feel like we touched on a lot in man of Steel was that the whole point of man of Steel was to get us as the audience to see the human side of Superman. And so to me, that's why that moment was so incredibly impactful. To see. To see, yeah, sure. Maybe the delivery could have been a little better.

Maybe something else could have been done a little better to make it hit harder for more people.

But for me, I absolutely loved that moment because like I said, I didn't even realize that their moms were both named Martha until the very end of that.

So, well, that's what, hour three by this time and that. And I'll. I'll say two and a half.

They still have the whole second movie of Doomsday with and adding Wonder Woman. Yeah, could have. That should. They should have stopped at that fight with the resolution.

And then movie three should have been when they introduced Doomsday and Wonder Woman. And so much of this movie's plot issues, not all of them, but a lot of the issues would have been resolved for me if I possibly took this movie.

And because they could have done a whole different story and build up and connection with Batman and Superman because they became buddies way too Quickly, at least for me. Like, yeah, I'm going to need a moment. If you just tried to kill me with a kryptonite spear, I'm going to need a couple. I'm going to need some.

Before I trust you with go saving my mom, I'm going to need a couple.

I don't disagree with that. But again, his goal at that point was to kill Batman or ask him to save him. Literally.

He looked at Lois and was just like, I don't really want to, but I have to ask the Bat to.

Help me with this. He should have said something like, hey, I don't know, like, his dialogue before the fight.

Kyle, are we getting, like, way off topic before we even get on?

No, it's good. I'm. I'm just. I'm minding my notes. Yes, I also produce the show, so I.

He. That was another issue. I had that again. And I talked about this in the last movie, but it wasn't as big of a deal for the last movie.

But it's a huge deal in this movie is all the dialogue is ridiculous. Either it's funny ridiculous or it takes away from the plot ridiculous either. So anytime Jesse Eisenberg speaks, I think it's so terrible.

But it's fun. Like, he's. They should have not named him Lex Luthor and just made him his own little psychopathic character.

But, like, we'll get into Jesse Eisenberg later.

I have a whole thing on that.

Yeah, there should have been a. I don't.

I wish I'd written down the exact words he said before they fought, because it should have been something like, hey, Lex Luthor's captured my mother. And for. In blackmailing us to fight, can we please work together to save this?

I mean, he tried to say that, and Batman just kept punching him.

I think his words are like, no, you don't understand. Or, wait, stop. No, no, I guess we're doing.

The very first thing he starts to say is, I need your help. This. And before he can get any of it out, Batman comes and shoots him with the kryptonite and starts hitting him. Yeah, like, he tried.

He legitimately tried. And again, Batman is so overtaken by his anger at that point that he's not really listening to him. So I mean it. I disagree with you.

It made complete sense.

So I think if. And again, these people are paid a lot more money than me to figure out how to make a good movie. So I feel like it's more responsibility on them.

But if it was me actually Knowing that the movie's called Batman vs Superman. Him trying to reason with Batman we already know is not gonna work at all. So there does need to be that big fight scene.

That's what we came to the theaters to watch, literally.

And there's a reason that whole sequence is shot in the IMAX format.

There should have been similar to how there was an almost ending conclusion. But then Batman, on his own merit, maybe through something Alfred said, maybe Lois gets there in time. Maybe.

Maybe something pops up on the screen and Lex Luthor is like, ha, time's up. Now I'm gonna go kill your mom or whatever. Batman should have figured it out without a stupid Martha line.

And then that could have enlisted the entire. What you just said about the beauty of that moment. And he. Then that's when they could have worked together. Maybe something else could have happened.

Maybe there could have been some situation on Batman's end that was equally as troubling where he. He. He gets a phone call from Alfred and he's got to go resolve that. I mean, there could have been so many situations where the fight ended in a.

Almost draw. And then they went and they saved the day together. It did not need to end with such a cheesy. Which has to go down in.

In the line of superhero movie history is the dumbest.

Oh, I disagree. I disagree. I don't think it's a cheesy line at all. I thought it was a very great moment. And even in the theater, I was like, this is awesome.

So maybe the next one should have been just. They only. They teamed together to only save women named Martha.

Yeah.

Only Martha's.

Absolutely.

Yeah. We' load up.

The villain is the marinator.

Yeah. We're going to get a.

We're going to get a tanker outside on the coast of Gotham and we're just going to load it up with Martha's and take him to safety.

Martha Stewart's at the head of everything.

Yeah.

Plot twist. She's the villain. She works with Dr. Dre. How can you betray us?

Yeah. It's an interesting discussion. I. I hate to say it. I do. I do kind of side with Drew, but for different reasons.

Okay, hold on a second. A simple eyesight. Drew, for different reasons would have been just fine.

No, you're a vulgar piece of online. So it had to be with a little bit of begrudging.

Yeah.

Okay.

He's not.

I'm not gonna disagree with any of this, but it. It is gonna make people look me up online and be very confused.

Yeah. Because they're gonna find out you're actually just a nice guy and. Yeah. And very professional.

Oh, my God.

I. My thing is, is I feel again, I approached this. I didn't read the comics. I never intended to. I want to look at these as movies pieces. Right.

I feel like by the time the Martha thing comes around, I've been loaded up with a lot of, like, context. And there's a lot of callbacks they plant into the movies and this, like, into Donna, like, the next ones, too, in Justice League, and, like.

But I feel just kind of, like, overwhelmed. I'm like. Like I'm missing, like, the Martha thing. Like, it didn't hit me till that moment, and I think it just didn't hit me.

Yeah.

Because I feel like I'm loaded up with so much other stories.

Like. Okay.

Yeah.

Because that's a thing.

The first hour and a half of the movie is pretty dialog heavy, actually, considering that it's superhero movies. And I'm just kind of like. Because by this time, we've already seen Congress explode. Right?

Yeah.

And it's like, I'm just kind of like, my bright. My brain's a little frightened. And by the time we get to the Martha thing, I'm just like, oh, yeah, they're both named Martha.

Yeah.

You know, it just like. I just feel like I've been loaded up with so much story at this point, and I. That's why it didn't really pack a punch for me. And then.

But the way you're talking about, like. Yeah, it is kind of cheesy.

You know, it's good for me. It calls back to the moment that Zod was about to kill his mom in the first one.

And he literally busts through the wall and saying, don't you touch my mother.

Yeah.

Like, it. It was. To me, it was that kind of callback where, like, you know, how overprotective.

As much as we think he's protective of Lois, he's even more protective of his mom.

Because you don't mess with the Kansas farm boys.

You don't.

Yeah.

And so, I don't know, for me, like, as at that point, I'm. I was so invested in the story itself in theaters and when I saw the. The Ultimate Edition, that, for me, I don't know, it hit very hard for me.

I think my biggest. Maybe what's colored my opinion of that scene is my biggest problem with the movie was how they portrayed Superman.

Okay.

I. Any kind of character development, positive character development, they did in man of Steel.

I Felt like Batman versus Superman just completely crapped on. In what way?

I'm curious?

He became the plot device for the question of should these all powerful superhero aliens be worshiped or be held in checked. Are they criminals suddenly?

I mean, every scene we saw him in, it was all about people either, you know, like, not liking him, not wanting, like they. Then there. To me, the.

The greatest point of this was the cheesy scenario where he saved a kid from a burning building and everyone hero worshiped him right there. Which is going back to the whole point of the movie is, you know, from Batman's perspective, people are.

People are either worshiping him or there's people that should be concerned for them. And then of course, you have Lex Luthor in the same movie who's like way over the top, past the extremist route of not worshiping him and.

Yeah, and also manufacturing some of the rage against him.

I feel like by this movie I might be wrong because we never get the whole series. But Batman is the main character of these movies. Batman is the hero. Batman's the person that Snyder is like, setting the plot around.

Yes. Because this was not. I just want to make this clear. This was not man of Steel 2.

Snyder had another idea for man of Steel 2 that was going to come after the first Justice League movie.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

But I thought. I thought Ben Affleck was fantastic. I would have loved to see more of him. I would have loved to see a Batman vs. Deathstroke movie.

Oh, that would have been so good. I mean, I feel like every. I was a fan and I wanted to. I wanted to know more about, like, what happened to Robin at the Joker's hand.

That would have been a movie too.

Yeah.

That also, it was alluded to that might be the Red Hood and not his original Robin, because he sees a different grave with Robin. So, like, yeah, there's all this. He did set up the scene. And I liked watching Ben Affleck as Batman. I just felt like where they took.

There was like, no character development for Superman. There was no.

And everything about him, it just went back to, like, the ethical question of his existence, which is a little bit more than man of Steel, but not enough to like, make a whole movie about.

See, this is where I would disagree with you is I do see some significant character development with Superman and Clark, because in the first movie, it was just. He finally felt unleashed. Because the whole time before he puts on the suit, his dad's like, keep yourself hidden. Don't let anyone know who you are.

Then he finally unleashes at the end of that movie. And now he is doing the thing that Superman fans want, which is the everyday, oh, someone's in trouble.

I'm gonna leave and disappear and go save him and then come back. He's doing that thing.

But then he's also having to answer for when he did unshackle himself completely and destroyed the entirety of Metropolis, which again, they did this a year before Civil War did Civil War, which I know I'm gonna get so much hate for saying this. Civil War is my least favorite Marvel movie. I think it was so many worse.

Ones to pick from.

This is my absolute dog shit least favorite.

If you think that the change between Batman and Superman was quick, how about the fact that we had what, eight, nine movies of buildup of Tony Stark doing his thing and then out of nowhere some random ass mother crying about a kid who died that he's never seen before. Suddenly he's just like, oh, I've got the moral high ground now. I need to say that we need to do better when he's literally.

That's the exact opposite of Tony Stark's character.

So to compare those two moments, which are pretty significant in both movies, I feel like this movie handled the aftermath of an all out God level brawl in the middle of a modern city.

Well, and the, well, the big, the big thing for this movie, in addition to the end of man of Steel was the beginning when Jimmy Olsen. I put quotes in because they completely just took the name and put on different.

Yeah, when he, you know, when he got murdered and when like they that like sleuth or framed him for that whole song. That is very real. But what, what I don't know. The Superman that I would be used to is. Handles all of that a lot better than this one.

Sure this is. But this is Superman 18 months into being Superman. We've established in the first one.

He's pulling everything out of his ass at this point as far as like his ethics, his morals. How is he going to handle being this all powerful being?

And now he's having to go through not only trying to do the hero thing, but also immediately having to answer for the consequences of his actions in the first one.

But it's a movie and does he have to be so boring?

I don't think he was boring.

Like he was so monotone, so one dimensional. The most we I the most I liked him.

I would say there were probably three scenes that I found him slightly redeemable in the first time he meets Batman. Where he's just like, you're done. Yeah, that was pretty cool. I do kind of like that scene the first time Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne meet each other.

Yeah.

That's kind of a fun scene with Jesse Eisenberg knowing everything. He's the person who knows what's going on, but he's still kind of like, you know, point at them. And then the scene that.

Then when he's being blackmailed by Lex Luthor and that you do get to see his emotion. You do get to see his struggle. You do kind of like you were saying, Kyle at that point.

We were so many hours in that I was like, am I still watching this movie? Like, is this. Have I. Have I fallen into this world? Is this reality?

I loaded up.

Yeah. But I just. Throughout the whole movie, like, it just. It became like a shift to Batman's the main focus.

Which, don't get me wrong, Batman's great and a good character on his own.

His name also comes first in the title.

True. But these are. It's just. These are two really big names in Superhero Dome. They have two very different personalities.

The way their stories work best is when they're both equally spotlighted and conflicting. And it just feels like this movie only shows it properly from Batman's perspective. Don't get me wrong, I really liked seeing.

I would have loved to see more Batman Ben Affleck movies, but I just feel like I found myself getting bored with Superman and I felt like he became a plot device in this movie.

Interesting. I just. I see it from such a different perspective because I feel like. I feel like it hit both characters super well.

I feel for Superman by the end of the whole thing because of him realizing how. How much power he truly does without even saying the Spider man, you know, moniker of. With great power comes great responsibility.

I feel like that dawning on him really showed in the movie. So that's where I'm like, I don't. I don't see him as a one dimensional character in this movie. I see significant changes.

Yeah.

Especially with the fact that he's decided to sacrifice himself at the end of the movie. Like in the first movie, he wins by killing the bad guy and that's it. In this, he realizes the only way he can kill the bad guy is if he dies too.

So I see him from going from the struggle of what am I supposed to do? To finally ending this movie with, no, if I'm gonna be the hero, I have to do the thing that heroes do, which is sacrifice myself and everything.

I want for the greater good of humanity, which he does.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, I like watching you too. Just feel like two blunt instruments.

Don't talk about my penis.

I will say that I. One thing I did appreciate the. Before we go into actual. What we're talking about, I regularly quote one of Martha Kent's lines to Superman.

To people frequent when she's telling Superman, you can be all these things or you can be none of them. It's completely up to you.

I feel like when I've interacted with young people, like, who are, like, really talented and deal with, like, the pressure of, like, show business and, like, what to do, I. I tell them, like, look, you could do all this stuff, but if it doesn't, like, make you happy, like, you don't actually have to do any of it.

Like, I feel like I've quoted Martha Kent because when I saw that in this movie, I was like, oh, I've.

I.

That's. This is where I've heard that line that I say to other people.

Yeah.

Also the scene between him and the ghost of his father up at the top of that mountain. How can you not say that? That's such. Such an emotionally charged.

At that moment, I was so bored with the movie that I was like, oh, okay. Like, I'll be honest. That was. That was. I felt like I was just like. This whole movie was like, let's get.

Kevin Costner back in here.

That's.

That's what confuses me, because I respect and accept your opinion, even though I vastly disagree with it, because I never once during this movie have been bored.

Really.

I absolutely am just glued to the screen the whole time.

Yeah.

So that's where it, like, confuses me when people, like. It was boring. It was this. It was that. I'm like, how? Just I don't understand it. So.

Yeah.

What were your thoughts, Kyle?

Well, I. You know, I. You know, I. I just think it's.

Okay if you disagree with me, even if you hate to disagree.

Well, I agree with Drew, but for different reasons. No, no, I. You know, I. I just. I had so many thoughts while you're both were talking, but some of the things that kind of came to mind were.

First of all, is. Is the going back to the Martha thing what.

That kind of knocked loose for me was this idea that we needed another Batman origin story where we see his parents get killed. Again, I just like.

Which we see in this movie.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We see it all the time. Every Batman. Every time we kick off Batman again, we, we get that.

Like, that's not true. Actually. It wasn't in any. It wasn't obviously not in the Adam west one. It wasn't in either Michael Keaton ones.

It wasn't until Batman Forever that we first see that on screen, that we don't see it again in Batman and Robin. And we do see it the one time in Batman Begins. Only two times.

I feel like I've seen it so many times. Like, and did they really. Did they just put it in there for the Martha thing? Because other than that, I don't think we.

This movie's already got a long run.

Time, like remind you of Martha, but also to set you up. Like, I feel like, like, oh, we're about to watch Batman.

Which I always wondered about that because I'm like, anyone who knows about Batman knows that this is a thing that happens.

But I do feel like when you're making a movie, maybe one of the questions you're answering is like, how do I make this connect to people who've never heard of Batman or Superman?

Yeah, I do think in this type of instance that is something that needed to be brought up, especially in the way that he did it.

Because it harkens back to the intro of Watchmen for me, where he's got 50, 60 years of timeline that he's trying to shove into a two minute opening sequence. And so for this, I do feel like that was the appropriate way to introduce it. Make it some visual moments, but don't like Batman Begins did.

Don't make it the entire crux of this whole sequence.

The only thing that, and I remember thinking of this when I was watching it this last time that they Snyderversed it with that I thought was overwhelmingly cheesy, was at the end when the bats raised the child out of the cave.

Okay, so I have a fun fact for that. So it came out in theaters, I watched it, enjoyed it.

Then the Ultimate Edition came out and me and my friend James and his brother David were sitting in their living room watching it.

So we're now, what, four minutes into the movie when that happens, David, James's younger brother immediately perks up and goes, I wonder how many bats that would actually take to do that.

He spent the rest of the movie, the next three hours furiously researching, like, okay, so if we had the weight of one one foot piece of dental floss connected to the bat and connected to him, how much lift would that produce? He literally emailed a PhD who is the world's highest expert in this particular type of bat that was used in the movie.

Wow.

Within 30 minutes the guy emailed him back. Cause he was probably like, holy shit, somebody read something I wrote. This is incredible.

We found out by the end of the movie it would have taken I think the number was 10 plus million bats.

Wow.

To raise an 80 pound kid off the ground.

That's batshit crazy.

That's a lot of batshit.

Here's the only reason I forgive it though. It's a dream.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the only reason I forgive it.

Because otherwise I would completely agree. You saw that it was a dream sequence which I got, I got a little tired of the dream. I saw what they were doing with the dream sequences.

But I was like, you know, this wouldn't be a freaking three hour movie if we had less dreams.

Sure.

But again, as we talked about with man of Steel, the problem that Zack Snyder had from the very beginning was he was setting up when Iron man was made. Even Iron Man 2 and the incredible Hulk, I don't think they fully realized they were going to be making the mcu.

That was probably in the back of Kevin Feige brain. But I think he was more concerned with just making superhero movies that worked.

This from the get go was Warner Brothers saying you were about to create an entire cinematic universe of the Justice League. Have fun.

So for having that monumental task in front of him, I, yeah, I do think that the dream sequences were very important because the scene with Barry showing up with the Flash showing up was supposed to be the climax of Justice League 2 where Barry goes back in time to give Bruce that message. And that's why he says, am I too soon?

Because it's, it's not at the right moment for him to understand what is going on, what's going to be happening with Superman in the future. So legitimately he was setting up something that was going to happen in his plan four movies later.

Yeah. And I think Mike and I said this in the last episode. My critique with the Snyderverse is he spent or not. And not just him.

I'm sure there were multiple people, they spent so many, so much setting things up for perfect universe, for a perfect franchise. For that they forgot each movie should in some way stand on its own.

I agree with you. And this is. I will be the first person to say I do not think this one in particular is a perfect movie.

Of the three that I considered to be the real movies, man of steel, BVs and the Snyder cut, I do consider this one to definitely Be the weakest. I don't think it's as shitty as some people would like to act like it is. I think it is.

It was very fun superhero watching the CGI and the fight scenes.

Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's, I think, of a reasonably well made movie.

I think the ultimate edition tied up a lot of loose ends and a lot of problems that people had with, with the theatrical version. But I also think a lot of times people forget with, with having by this point now, seven years, six years, seven years of Marvel movies.

He was under a lot of pressure to really get Justice League out.

Like that was Warner Brothers number one goal was we got to get to Justice League as quickly as possible because they've already passed us twice with two Avengers movies. Not just Avenger adjacent, like actual two Avengers movies by then.

So he had a lot that he had to put together in order to get to the Justice League movie two years later. Also remember there were two years between man of Steel and this and then two years between this and the original release of Justice League.

Like they did not give him, I think, the time to really solidify what he was trying to do. Large scale.

Yeah. Speaking of large scale. Hey, if you're watching. Thank you.

And if this is your first time hanging out with us at the Movie wars podcast, you might be very confused. I get it. We. It's not. This is a great heated debate. It's not usually like this, but this is fun. I'm enjoying it because I'm not the superhero guy.

And so I'm just kind of watching these two gladiators. But hey, hit subscribe, Follow Share.

I know you got a friend out there on Reddit that's just talking about these movies from the Snyder Cut subreddit who's not banned. Like Seth here. Send it to a friend. Share. That's the easiest way to grow movies where in its free and you get to feel good about yourself.

There you go.

And you get to see two white guys yell at each other about Batman and Superman.

There's not enough white guys yelling about comics in this world.

There really isn't. Yeah, we are. We are short on white guys.

I love that. I. I love. I'm picturing all the mean things people are thinking or saying.

Oh, I can't. I. I've. I've viscerally prepared myself for the amount of hate I'm going to get for defending this movie.

Yeah. So you should name your next comedy special short on White Guys. I would love that. That would be Amazing.

That'd be great. Yeah.

The question, and I'm sorry, I should say, as I've been shitting on the movie a little bit, like, I actually in some ways enjoyed this one better than man of Steel because it was, like, more action packed. Right. Like, when I go in to watch these kind of movies, I don't. I don't go in expecting, man, this is gonna be a great plot. This is gonna.

This is gonna keep me thinking for days.

My problem with the Snyderverse movies is that it's like they promise they're gonna be a great plot and we'll be thinking for days, and then they give us all the slow motion and none of the payoffs.

This one barely had any slow motion compared to any of his other movies, by the way. So I will say, yeah, I think he did a good job holding back here.

Yeah.

And I also. Here's the other thing, y'all. Zack Snyder is his own director. He makes his own visual style.

Walking into a Zack Snyder movie and not expecting slow motion is like walking into a Quentin Tarantino movie and not expecting a lot of feet shots. Okay. It's like walking into a Christopher Nolan movie and not expecting there to be some sort of commentary on time. Like, this is his visual style.

This is the way he does things. If you don't like it, don't watch his movies. Okay. Just expect it, enjoy it for what it is, and move the on.

Unless you got to talk about it on a podcast.

Yeah.

Then you. I have to watch it then.

Yeah. You kind of got a rant, but, you know.

Yeah, the questions, the questions. Did anyone else think that Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor was, like, watching a tweaked out Mark. Mark Zuckerberg doing a Joker impression?

That's exactly what it was supposed to be.

He was tweaked out, man. And I thought it was like he was almost. He almost was acting. Acting like a joke. The Joker, in some ways.

Have you met tech bros like that? That's what they look like.

I mean, yeah, I've been in tech for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He. It was a stretch. Okay. I, I had, I had divided opinions.

I think I actually, based on what I've seen of Jesse Eisenberg, I do think I like his acting style. I, I, and I liked. He was a good villain in this movie. Like the way he was able to outsmart both Batman and Superman and put them against it.

Now, that's a very Lex Luthor move there.

Yes.

In general, however, it was like they were saying, we want to have Lex Luthor and just not have Lex Luthor.

And I've seen arguments where they drew from different inspirations from the comics or he was a different version, or even arguments where he's a clone of Lex Luthor, which is based off of different comic books.

I think it's just easier in my brain to put him as a not Lex Luthor and just, I mean he was a good villain, but he absolutely seemed like he was like, it seemed like he was coked out 90% and.

Doing a Joker impression.

But again, I think that was the point because again, from the moment man of Steel started, Zack Snyder was very clear this is not going to be your typical Superman.

And the last time we had seen Lex Luthor on screen was Kevin Spacey, who was pretty much an attempt to just be the clone of the original Christopher Reeve, Superman's Lex Luther. So we had really only seen one type, two interpretations, but one type of Lex Luthor on screen for the world that Zack Snyder was creating.

Which was again answering the people who wanted a more Christopher Nolan vibe to the Superman series. He pulled from modern day tech people to kind of get the vibe of what would Lex Luthor look like in our world today.

He would look like a Mark Zuckerberg. He would look like a Jeff Bezos. He would look like an Elon Musk. He would look like those types of people. And Elon Musk is incredibly adhd.

Mark Zuckerberg, even when he's calm, seems like he's incredibly coked out all the time. And then by the end of the movie he looks like Jeff Bezos.

So I kind of feel like he, he, he, I think he played it well to be a different interpretation of what would have fit in this world. I don't think a brawny, bald, Clancy Brown voiced kind of guy would have fit in this universe.

And then I wonder if it would have been better received though is if because we talked about this maybe in the last episode or maybe we've just talked about in general where like there's a fine line in like doing modernizing a well known character and like, or when is it time to create a new character?

Sure, I would have received it better if he made an entirely new character that was, and you kind of knew go in it it was based off of Lex Luthor and maybe just call him Alex.

So I don't disagree with that. The problem was one of the bigger criticisms of man of Steel was that Lex Luthor wasn't in it.

Yeah, at the time, that was something people were very upset about. And so Lex Luthor had to be.

So we're seeing a rear recurring theme here that I think might also be maybe an issue with these movies. Is everything about these movies is response to critics. Yes, unfortunately, all the problems, it's always gone back.

Well, people were saying this, so we tried to do this.

Yeah. And then they do a new cut. It's like, oh, we heard your feedback. We put that stuff back in the movie. It's like, that's not how this works.

And with this movie in particular, this is. Is both where Snyder really tried to lean into his own vision. And he kept fighting Warner Brothers at every turn.

Every time he wanted to do something, it was meddled with.

That's why the cut, the final cut that was in theaters was 30 minutes shorter than what the ultimate edition was because things kept getting with by Warner Brothers. So this. Wow. Man of Steel, I think, was a very Warner Brothers DC version of a Zack Snyder movie.

This, I feel like, especially knowing the background and internally what was going on, this movie was definitely. You could see the waring factions of Warner Brothers wanted this. Zack Snyder wanted to do this. And what came out versus Warner Brothers.

A lot of justice.

Yeah. And I think what came out of it in the theatrical version was just a bumbling mess outside of a couple of things.

And even with the extended cut, which cleaned up some things that people had complaints about. Again, this is why I do consider it to be the weakest of the three films, is because there was. I don't think he was allowed to have his vision.

I think Warner Brothers, and we've seen this more. As Kevin Feige has become more and more micromanaging with the Marvel movies.

Instead of just letting directors do their thing, I think they became so micromanaging that, that it was very difficult for him to do what he wanted to do.

Yeah, Yeah. I just, I don't like the trend. I just. It's not really a trend, but I like if I, I hope it doesn't become one. This like. Just kidding.

Here's the. Here's what.

Here's the real movie. Like, I get it. Like, there's a better movie out there and I get it. Whether it's the direction director of the studio.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not really, like, here to give you multiple shots with movies. I have too many to watch and too many to cover that. I'm like, oh, look, they, they, they, they took the movie I hated and.

They re released it.

Maybe I'll like it this time. Oh, and it's three hours longer, I think.

I.

Yeah, I mean, it's all Peter Jackson's fault because he made incredible theatrical versions of Lord of the Rings and then put out the extended versions, and somehow they were just as good, if not better.

Yeah.

And so that became kind of the expectation. But even his extended version of King Kong was. Was terrible.

Yeah.

It did not need to happen.

But the Lord of the Rings were great at the beginning. They started great. And like, oh, he put out more great.

Yeah.

I don't like seeing and then saying, oh, they added more stuff to.

Well, that's the thing is, previous to that, director's cuts were usually just seen as putting the director's deleted, like, favorite deleted scenes back in the movie.

They didn't really add or more violence. Yeah, the violence, they couldn't.

Like an unrated cutter.

And it usually equates to eight to 10 minutes, if that of extra footage.

Peter Jackson and. And S.N. snyder, at this point are really the only two directors that I've seen do extended cuts that really change the dynamic of the movie.

Yeah.

And I think his extended cut of Watchmen is way better than the original version.

Yeah.

I think obviously his cut of Justice League is better than what Joss Whedon put out. But this one, again, while I do think it cleaned up some stuff, I think you would have even more complaints if we watched the theatrical version.

Well, and I'd seen it. I don't think I'd seen the ultimate one until this watch.

I think the only one I'd ever seen was the theatrical one, because I think one of the things that I thought was positive was a scene that I either missed or it wasn't part of the theatrical version. But when. When Superman goes to Gotham and is learning about the vigilante.

Yeah, that I remember when I was watching that, I was like, oh, I don't think this was in the.

I don't think so either.

And now that was a scene that, like, to me, added. It added because you're setting up the momentum between the two of them. So.

So, yeah, I definitely can agree this is not a perfect movie. And I also think when we get to the scorecard, my biggest complaint is going to come with the physical writing of the script.

So I'm sure we're all actually going to agree there. But I don't think it's the shitstorm. People act like it is online.

I don't know. I kind of want it to be a shitstorm.

I don't think it's the shitstorm, but I don't think it's the magnum opus either.

No, it's not, though. See, that's the thing is this one especially is not his magnum opus. And even in the. Like I said, in that extended cut, I can see.

See where you had two people pulling on the rope, trying to go different directions.

Yeah.

I also don't love nowadays that like. Like, and it's. Especially with the DC universe, like.

Like, look, we all have bosses we've had to work for that suck and make us have to play their ways. And, like, I don't like how, like, it's so common knowledge about the dc. Like, it's. I. I am stressed out because of the knowledge for the.

Like, I shouldn't have that when I go to a movie. Like, it should just be a movie.

Well, this has all come out since the movie came out. Like. Like, a lot. Even. A lot of this came out after Ray Fiser sued Warner Brothers and Jaws Weeden over their behavior on Justice League.

So we'll get to that next time. But, yeah, a lot of this wasn't out at the time.

And.

And it's. It's now only looking back that I can. I can really see, oh, this is what happens when studios don't let directors just do their thing.

Sure have opinions. A lot of times things will get changed, and it's for the better. There have been.

I think we've talked about a couple examples where studio execs came in and were like, change this, and it was actually better in the long run.

Cross City of Angels.

Yeah, exactly. But for this, it's. It's.

It's one of those, like, why that movie so much?

Why hire a director with such a specific visual style of storytelling if you're just gonna cripple him while he tries to do what he does?

Yeah.

Same thing with, like, Edgar Wright doing Ant Man. Like, why would you hire someone who literally has one of the most distinctive visual styles in all of film history?

It'd be like telling Wes Anderson to not make everything symmetrical.

Yeah.

Like, why the fuck would you hire Wes Anderson then if you didn't want a perfectly symmetrical movie the whole time?

Right.

And that's what I feel like happened with this, is they hired a very distinctive director, and we're trying to tell him not to do his thing.

They basically want him to make Marvel movies.

Yeah. Literally.

Yeah.

And even though his goal was to not make Marvel movies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next question.

What do you think Batman would have liked Superman better If he had the trunks, I just think that automatically kind of lifts up the likability. Even though he may be a nuclear weapon that's going to destroy us. Those trunks, those are pretty cool.

It makes it more humanized. It's like, oh well, maybe he has bad passion too. Like, so do humans maybe. No, I, I think he would have wanted to kill him more.

I don't think he would have stopped. I don't. I think even once he realized that he's got a name his, his mom's named Martha, he'd be like, yeah, but those red trunks gotta go.

Yeah. And like the Martha scene, it would have been like, is she the one that put the red trunks on you?

Did she dress you? Yeah, no, I feel like, I feel like like on set Batman hated Superman so much because they hadn't edited his dick out yet.

So the whole time he's just staring at the massive that he has and he's just like, well, I can't please Jennifer the way you can. Be it Garner or Lopez.

Amazing Rando. There were some really funny ones, including this one.

Christian Bale only had one piece of advice to Ben Affleck that was put a get a zipper on the suit. Because going to the bathroom is not easy if you don't have a zipper on the suit.

Love it.

So he actually did it. He actually had the costume department put a zipper on it.

Hell yeah.

Can you imagine going to a public bathroom and peeing next to you and Batman?

Yeah, that'd be kind of great.

It's like when Aragorn Vigo was shooting Lord of the Rings, he would leave set in full costume with his sword because he wanted to like live the character as much as he could. And people were just like, yeah, there's a crazy guy swinging a sword just walking down the street.

Yeah.

I mean like I imagine most people when he's dressed, it's on you set. You know there's a bathroom nearby to go, but you know there had to have been like one Uber Eats.

Dude, that was just dropping off a pastrami sandwich.

Yeah.

And before just uses the restroom and he's like, oh, there's this Batsuit has a zipper.

Yeah.

Seriously, best thing we ever came up with.

You guys just, you gotta drop trout ankle. Just go number one.

Yeah.

Ye like a five year old.

Now was it a zipper down the back or was it a zipper like those shorts where you could take the legs off around the waist so he could use them like pants.

Breakaway bat.

Oh my God. Remember convertible, like convertible Pants.

Oh, my God. Yeah.

Zipping off the legs. And they were cargo.

Yep.

What were they doing?

I had those when I was.

I did, too. Yeah. It's like, oh, when are you in a situation where on the spot, you need to zip your legs off?

Yeah. You know, hey, sometimes it starts kind of cool, and then it gets warm and your legs need ventilation.

Yeah.

So you just do the knees, but.

Then you just got to. You got to tote your legs around.

You know, the cargo pockets.

That's right. Okay, now it's all making sense.

I was an exceptionally dorky individual as a child, but even I looked at those, and you're like, no.

Yeah.

No, no, thank you.

Where'd you grow up?

Brentwood, Tennessee.

Oh, okay. I was. I grew up in Georgia, so the humidity was like. It'd be kind of nice in the morning. And then, too, you'd be like, no, the. The pants are.

The pant legs are coming off.

Yeah. Christian Bale isn't the only body transformation guy.

Oh.

Ben Affleck gained 20 pounds of muscle and got down to 8% body fat for this. I actually had a question I didn't have time for, but I was like, did anyone else enjoy the. The. The steroid era? Batman?

Oh, yeah.

This is the Mark McGuire Batman here.

When they showed him, like, working out to fight Batman.

Oh.

Which.

Such a good.

Yeah, I did like that scene.

It was like, okay, good effort, but also not going to help.

Yeah.

The tech. Maybe it was so he could wear all that armor. Like, the tech help, but him thinking like, oh, crap, I got to fight Superman soon.

I got time for about three good workouts probably, and you're going to laugh.

As much as I criticize the Martha scene, I laughed my ass off thinking about it myself, about how funny it was, all the working out he did. That's only the whole fight. I'm thinking, like, it's so funny. Worked out for this, really. Yeah.

Well, granted, remember, he was under the assumption. Correct assumption that he was going to be shooting him with kryptonite dust.

Yeah.

So, I mean, he did even the odds.

It was interesting because, I mean, this. This goes back to the best critique to Batman.

It's not necessarily bad, but it is a critique because everyone's always like, well, he's not a real superpower. He doesn't have super. You know, he doesn't have superpowers. Not a real superhero.

Even though technically his superpower is being insanely smart.

He's the world's greatest, and in every plot, it always goes back to, well, Batman will figure out a way.

Yeah.

And so like his plot armor is his superpower. Yeah, his superpower.

Always. Absolutely.

So.

And it's, it's, it when watching this movie, like, you're not annoyed by it, but you're like, it's, it's, it's not unlike when you were watching Zod vs Superman and you're like, I can't tell. They're evenly matched. Yeah.

Who's ahead here?

Yeah, like, like I know. Because realistically, Superman could end the battle from the moment it started.

Yeah.

But his humanity and Batman's quick thinking are always reasons why they appear evenly matched. And we as viewers just have to.

Be like, okay, yeah, I did like the callback. Even though I don't know all the comics, I do know that, like one of the interesting things about Batman in the comics is how he's brainy.

You know, there are, there's a whole detective aspect and there's not a lot of detective Batman here. But this was a nice little callback to that. Yeah.

I mean, there was enough of it with him trying to figure out who slash, what the, the White Portuguese was.

Yeah.

So I, I, I, I did enjoy because that was kind of significantly less in the original version. I like that we got to see him actually looking for information on how to get the kryptonite. I thought that was cool. Do you mind if I do a rando?

Please. Rando it up. Rando.

Jesse Eisenberg, I hope this isn't one of yours.

But, but Jesse Eisenberg, when he got the news that he had booked Lex Luthor, got so excited that he immediately went and shaved his head and showed up on set. And Zach goes, oh, hey buddy, we were gonna use your hair for most of the movie.

And so that's why he has the God awful wig for the whole movie, is because he got too excited and shaved his head immediately.

Wow, that's hysterical.

So we would have had his.

Isn't that more like something the character of Lex Luthor as he portrays would do?

And here's the thing, like after pcp.

He had just come off of the Social Network and playing Mark Zuckerberg. So I think like that's kind of where Zack Snyder's head was, was. Oh, he's gonna look like a Mark Zuckerberg type tech guy. So that'll work.

And then I think the biggest mistake with Lex Luthor's character in this was giving him that weird long hair. I think they should have gone for something a little more traditional tech, bro. With the way his hair was. So that the.

The look of it definitely did throw me for. Probably when I first saw the first 30 minutes of the movie.

Patagonia jacket. That's all he needed.

Exactly. But just the vest. Not the full jacket.

Exactly.

Even though it's cool, if he'd had his natural hair, I think the character would have been received a little bit better.

Well, it actually links perfectly to another rando I have later, which is. In a lot of interviews, Jesse Eisenberg has said that this hurt his career.

Yeah. Unfortunately, it did.

He say he got passed over. He knows for a fact he's been passed over and roles since because they. They remember it. And then you tie it back to the hair thing.

This whole thing was a cluster for Jesse Eisenberg.

I feel so bad for him because I. I love what he did with the character. I love he was given whatever he was given. Agree with it or not.

He was given what he was given and he went 110% with it. I think even though some could consider his acting to be over the top, I think for that type of character, he did a really good job.

I think he was on par with Paul Dano as Riddler in the Batman. I think he was a very similar level character.

Yeah.

I just. I think if. I think it would have been better for his career if they called him not Lex Luthor.

Fair.

Literally any name, including not Lex Luthor.

I think Paul Dano put his foot right in Eisenberg's ass.

Oh, yeah.

In this. I mean, he's. Yeah. And I didn't even like the Batman, but I love that.

I would have loved to see more Ben Affleck. Batman. I would love to see.

Oh, yeah.

I would love to see some independent or. Independent movies. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I would have loved to see him in a standalone movie. I would have loved to. It's just. It was it.

And it felt like even looking when you look at the Justice League and even when you look at the Flash, it feels like he was. He was going to be the equivalent of like, Iron man. As in, like the staple hero.

Yeah.

Difference, though is, you know, Chris Evans, Captain America was equal to Iron man as far as cinematography, performance, everything. And I know we disagree on this, but like Superman in this movie. And then even. And then it gets even worse in the Justice League. Like, it just.

He just is.

Well, he's dead for half the movies.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's there. But it's like, okay, Galga Gal Gadot gets a better performance.

Yeah.

As Wonder Woman than. Than Henry Cavill does as Superman.

Yeah.

Yeah, we'll talk about that next week.

Rando.

Rando.

This is crazy. The studio had a really hard time because Nolan was worked on the last one.

They were really having a hard time figuring out, like, what this Batman was going to be.

Yeah.

And they were really concerned that they weren't going to be able to distinguish between this and the Nolan Batman.

Yeah.

So they actually, he.

For a while, he considered casting Christian Bale in a different role just so that when people went to see the movie, they knew they were not getting Nolan Batman. It's like, hey, look, he's over here. Christian Bale's over here. He's not Batman.

So glad they didn't.

That is still, like. I don't feel like that would have helped at all.

It would have been worse.

That's one of the best studio decisions, was to not do that.

Someone who didn't like the performance would be like. They literally had Christian Bell over there playing the newspaper guy.

Yes. And because of the nature of the whole canonization thing, like, then just how comic book fans are, the minute that Bale is a different character.

Yeah.

And athletes, like, is that as real? You know, that people are gonna be like, wait a second, Is that. Is that the real Wayne? Is it, like, people would just.

I think it immediately, immediately would have exploded the movie in the worst possible way.

Did he prestige this movie? What the.

I think they did a good job of, you know, Batman in this universe is older.

Yeah.

And so that set apart the difference between Christian Bale's Batman and Ben Affleck's Batman.

Yeah.

And I also think as the movies were going on, it be. It was becoming more clear that this is an alternate dimension. This is Earth 2. This is the.

This is the multiverse, which doesn't matter to either you guys. Probably. But, like, there's like, the universe where the injustice storyline happens is, like, the most fucked up of the universe.

Yeah.

Like, it's the one where all the superheroes become evil. It's the one where, like, the world's dark. And as.

As you're watching the Snyderverse, Superman and Justice League movies, you're thinking, this is where this is headed.

Yeah. For me, it's like I look at this movie as what would have been chapter 2 of 10.

And I feel like people saw this movie and immediately decided every other chapter was going to suck just because they had one part of the story they didn't like. I feel like if Snyder had been able to finish everything, people would Be looking back on this movie a lot kinder.

Yeah, maybe.

But we got a few extra of those chapters, and they were.

We got one more.

Oh, I guess Snyder's chest. Yeah.

So Snyder didn't really have anything to do with, like, Suicide Squad or even Aquaman or like, he. I think the one he had the most input on was Wonder Woman, just because that came out right after Batman vs Superman.

Still, when you're three movies out of ten in, and the last was Justice League.

Yeah.

Well, no, no, this was two. And then.

Well, you had this one, then you had Justice League. I'm not saying that I would have loved. I would have loved.

I would love to go peek into a different universe and see what the rest of the movies looked like.

Yeah.

I'm just saying that it makes sense after this movie and Justice League that they were like, this is. Although I guess that's not. No, he left because.

He left because. Yeah, his. One of his kids committed suicide. And what sucks is his movie was almost done. Like, literally the.

The six months that he took to finish the movie. When he did it, that's all they had left to finish his version.

So I would have loved to see his interpretation on the rest of the movies, although the rest of the movies that are out.

Well, did you. Have you read the synopsis of what his. His further movies were going to be?

I've read bits and pieces.

I would encourage you before we hit Justice League just to see that. Just because in context of what he was trying to do, I understand the decisions he made along the way.

And it just got cut so short that a lot of things that he was setting up in man of Steel were going to pay off in Justice League 2. So.

Just didn't do it justice.

Exactly. Just didn't league it. Well.

It was only a league of its own.

Oh, doomsday Last rando. While Seth's assigning reading assignments here, so this is really crazy. You are probably the biggest Hans Zimmer fan in the world.

You've seen him how many times? And once. Oh, but you're seeing him again.

I'm seeing him again.

But you saw him not too long ago.

I saw him back in September. Yeah.

So you're in 12. In 12 months, you're seeing him twice.

Well, yeah, that's because I didn't think he was coming here.

I'd call you. I'd call you a fan at that point, especially if you're going to battle that Nashville traffic.

I'm old and have four kids, and that's how I measure anything. I do. I was like, well, I literally walk.

To Bridgestone from here.

Yeah, not me, man. If there's traffic and a parking issue, I'm not going. That's just. Even if I have to go like Nosferatu, I want to see that as I got a park, you know.

Is that why we ended up never going to see that movie? Is that you're just thinking parking?

No. I have four kids, and one of them probably knocked me unconscious with something.

Yeah. And I probably didn't want to drive out to the IMAX to see it out there.

Traffic. I heard it was going to snow in three weeks.

Yeah.

Definitely not going to risk it. No, it just. It felt totally fell off my radar, as many things do.

But Hans Zimmer was excited to work on this, but he only wanted to do the man of Steel stuff. He did not want to do. Or he wanted to do Superman.

He brought in someone named Junkie XL to do all the Batman stuff because he said he didn't feel like, because of his experience with the other franchise, he didn't want to have to do it from scratch again. And he wanted someone else to, like, kind of do their own interpretation, which.

I think is fair.

Yeah.

And then he actually went on to do the entire score. Junkie XL wanted to do the entire score for the Snyder cut of Justice League.

And I actually really like it. Yeah. Just that. That one. So, yeah, it's really cool. And Zimmer's has so much. I mean, I like it because he has so much clout. He doesn't.

Right.

It's like, this is my score.

Yeah.

It's not a composer battle. You know, he's just like.

Sure. Well, it's common knowledge that he has a. Basically a people factory for making his scores.

Whenever Hans Zimmer is credited for a score, there's probably three or four other composers that came up with themes that he then went in and fleshed out to be the entire score of them.

I love it. Because he's finding work for those other people, too. Well, that's the thing, you know, like most of.

Most of the modern people doing scores other than Hans Zimmer. And, like, the classic people actually went through his pipeline.

So he's actually been putting out people who are then going on to do their own scores and win awards. So he's actually one of the few people that has that kind of setup that is actually doing it well to benefit the people that are working with him.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Shall we. Dawn of Justice? Shall we seek justice. Shall we fly. I'm getting so bad at that part. That part.

Justice, sir. I barely know her.

Hey, Justice. Zimmer.

Zimmer. On it. I don't know.

Yeah, Yeah, I got my Zimmer back.

Yeah.

All right, Reminder. Snare Snyder Barely knowers. Positive. Yes, we dig it. And super bad is if we don't like it, which perfect. Yes. I am so stoked about that top bill cast.

And that's Ben Affleck is Bruce Wayne and Batman. Henry Cavill as Clark Kent. Superman, and Amy Adams as Lois.

Was that really the only top build cast?

Yeah.

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah, There's. Typically, three is, like, the most I would have put.

Well, I would put a Jesse Eisenberg.

Yeah. I would have put him up there.

Yeah. He's not in the same pay band as these three.

Interesting. Fair.

And he shaved his head, so.

Big problem, asshole. I give it a Snyder Barely know where. I think all. All three of them.

I know you're probably gonna disagree with me on Henry Cavill, but I think all three of them went all out for everything they did in these movies. In this movie. So, yeah, I liked it.

So how's it work? Like, what's the percentage of, like. Because I'm like. I'm conflicted. Like, 33 and a third each. So if I.

So if I feel like two out of three of them is I have to give it a Snyder Barely know her.

Yeah, I'd say so. That's ma.

Okay. Okay. Well, in that case, I'm gonna give it. I'm gonna give it a Snyder Barely knower.

I've already kind of expressed my opinions on I didn't feel like Henry. It's not that I don't think he could do better. I don't think he was given much to do. And so I.

So because I've seen him in other stuff where I like him a lot better. Ben Affleck, I always say he's done great. I would say any development we've had of Superman's character in this movie or, like.

Like, where we got to, like, see his human side and act.

Act.

I feel like Amy Adams brought it out of him. It was all. Is all. So, yeah, I. I feel like she acted enough for both of them in this movie.

Yeah.

And so that's why I'm gonna give it a Snyder Barely knower.

Okay. Did you already give yours?

Yeah.

Right. Yeah, I. I. Kind of squeaky here. Squeaky Snyder. But mostly because. And this actually isn't necessarily Ben Affleck's Fall.

Actually, every scene Batman's in, I love. So the stuff I love most about this is Batman. I love how gigantic he is.

It was very contentious when they announced that he was going to be Batman. It was. Was one of the most divisive things.

Absolutely. Oh, I thought it was a horrible idea.

Yeah.

Just because I don't like him.

The people did. And I was like, yeah, I think you could do it.

The stuff I like him most in is Kevin Smith films.

Yeah.

When he works with Jay and Silent Bob stuff. Other than that, I do not. I do not love him. Or I love Chasing Amy.

Yeah.

But he was so big and hulking. I liked it. The only thing for me was. And again, this is a costume choice we'll talk about later.

But you didn't like the zipper.

Yeah, not enough zippers. I want zippers everywhere.

Really needed to be more zippers.

Besides the fact that he's acting differently with branding people, I didn't see enough other markers that he had necessarily aged. Like his back. Like he. What, didn't have like a walker. Like, I just like gray hair.

Just give me something to show that gray hair a little bit, but not.

Noticeable enough for a 50 year old.

Really. I didn't think it was. I didn't think there was really like.

Actually, if anything, he would have been in his, his mid to late 40s.

Really. I mean, I just didn't get he was old version Batman enough. Like, I only knew that because I knew the context. But I, I feel like he also.

Said 20 years several times.

Yeah.

I'll say physically he looked like he could have been like same age group.

Yeah.

Remember though, my dad is 60 and. Or 64 and a bodybuilder. So I mean. Yeah, it's possible to be that old and look that good.

Yeah.

I think what made him old looking to me was like. I mean, you could just tell with the things he was talking about. The, the man's been through some stuff.

Yeah.

Like when he, like when it. To me it's when you. The big thing was like when it showed like Robin's uniform. I was like, there's a story there.

Yeah. Like when he punched Robert E. Lee in the face.

Yeah. Yeah.

He's fucking old. Yeah.

Like he's just.

He's. Yeah.

That gave me like geriatric vibes.

Yeah.

Okay. All right. Again, I give it a. I give it a Snyder. Barely knower. I just, you know, something a little older pills, you know, Medicaid, something.

Maybe the Bat. Batmobile is like a Cadillac.

Yeah, yeah.

I think he did a significantly better job at looking older than. Than Christian Bale did in Dark Knight Rises. Yeah, Christian Bale looks exactly the same he looks at the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah.

That was 10 years later. So, I mean, and maybe it was.

The workouts, like, because the workouts were like, listen, I'm an. Like, I do work out, but I'm average. Like, I work out to stay in shape, not to. Not to be like your pops, you know?

But those workouts were intense, and he was looking jacked, and I was just like. Like, that's not old man workout.

Take some Tylenol before.

Yeah. Something, you know. You know, you. I gotta drink my prune juice, right? Yeah, something instead of the red trunks.

You know, for him, it could have been a depends, you know?

Absolutely.

This was my dad at 60.

Damn.

Yeah, we can. I can send this to you to put in the podcast so people can see. Yeah, that is my dad.

I'll let you know.

He looks like he's ready to fight Superman.

Very possible to look jacked as hell.

All right. That's dad, ladies and gentlemen. Holy.

Yeah. You like the trunks?

Yeah, I'm actually adding. He's the new Affirmative. Seth's dad is. Yes, we like it. Yeah. Bodybuilder Scott, shout out to Seth's dad. Thanks for making a fantastic human.

Yeah, we go. Thank you.

Good job.

Fantastic person to say that. Thank you.

Really. Yeah. Well, wait till the IRS comes around.

Oh, they have many times this year.

Supporting cast one to zero. And this is. Gotta pick and choose. This one here.

Jesse Eisenberg, Lex Luthor, Diane Lane, Martha Kent, Lawrence Fishburne, Perry White, Jeremy Irons, Alfred, Holly Hunter, Senator Finch, Gal Gadot. Man, this is just way down the list. Yeah, that would be Wonder woman, Scott McNary, Wallace Keefe, and then we'll stop there.

I. Again, I think.

Scoot McNary. Sorry.

Ah. I think everybody did. Did their job. I think they put 100% into each of the characters they played. Like we were talking about in the last episode.

I was very happy to see more of Laurence Fishburne in this one. I think you really got to see, like, the compassionate hard ass that he was trying to be in the first one.

I think it really came across more in this where, yeah, he was a hard ass, but it still was like, okay, fine, you're doing the good thing. So here, take. Take the chopper, take the plane, whatever. But coach. Only coach.

Yeah.

So, like, I don't know. I. I think he did really well as. As you said. I think Diane Lane he did even better in this one than she did in the first one.

Yeah.

I think this was a solid introduction to Gal Gadot as, as Wonder Woman. And Diane, I love kind of the. You weren't quite sure if she was Wonder Woman until, like, right before she comes in as Woman. So.

And disagree with me about Jesse Eisenberg all you want. I think he played a modern tech bro on cocaine to the absolute fullest. And I think he, I loved his performance. Performance.

So, yeah, I give it a Snyder barely know Snyder.

Barely know. Or Scott's dad. Yes. Or Seth's dad.

Yeah, I, I, I agree. I, with Lawrence Fishboyar. And he did a great job of a Perry White.

I, I wanted to hear at least once a Great Caesar's ghost, because that's, like, thing he says all the time. But then it would have been really good under his breath when he didn't say it.

It was a reminder, like, oh, this is like, like we're not, we're going away from typical mythology for. And it's fine. I thought everyone did. The senator was a minor character, but she, she did well at her job. So. No, this was.

I would give her a Seth's dad. I'd give her Seth's dad. And I do think this is.

We've talked about this a few other movies where, whereas I may not love the writing and, like, the overall plot that I was looking at, the actors did a really good job. And so it had, I mean, it has a great cast and fun fact about Gal Gadot in this movie that I didn't know until this rewatch. And I looked it up.

There was a scene where she's. When she's fighting Doomsday, and after she, like, slashes him, she has, like, a light smile, like, showing that she's kind of enjoying it.

Yeah, that was entirely improv and not part of it. She just, they caught her do that randomly and to me, like, like fits the character in that moment.

And I don't know if she just thought, hey, after I slice this CGI nothing imaginary thing, I'm gonna give a smile because Wonder Woman probably would do that.

But what a gal.

Or maybe. Yeah, or maybe she fell and caught herself and was really proud of, you know.

Wow.

Anyway, fun, fun facts.

A good job.

Yeah. I'm gonna go with Seth's dad on Seth dad.

I went super bad here. And interesting.

I'm sorry, but is it just because of Jesse Eisenberg?

No, not just.

The math does not work.

It's mostly that, but I'm Gonna go, I'm gonna go on a limb and call Jesse Eisenberg. Malpractice.

Okay here.

That was unwatchable. I hated him every time he was on screen. I, it's funny, I've been in tech for a long time, been around a lot of tech bros. I, I, I, it's funny.

Like, I, I'm just like, yeah, he's got some of that to him. But the, I don't know, I just, the way he talked, his mannerisms, the hair. I was just. And also over three hours is a lot of them.

I just was like, God, there's a lot of Jesse Eisenberg here. And what's funny is I love him like Social Network. I was like, he was perfect. Yeah, I've loved him.

In fact, I can't watch Mark Zuckerberg interviews because I'm like, that's not what Mark Zuckerberg's like. He's like in the movie, he's Jesse Eisenberg. That's actually my, he's, that's my thing. But I, I couldn't stand him.

Also, Lawrence Fishburne is one of my favorite actors. He's been in so many of my all time favorite movies. And I hated him here. I hated what he does here.

And I realize there's probably some tie back to the comics where the things he's saying, the headlines, I thought they were cheesy, drove me insane. And I'm just like, they have turned my Lawrence Fishburne into a headline spouting empty vessel here. He's more than that.

And I hated everything he did here. And he's one of my all time favorites, so I can't believe they made me hate him. I don't love this interpretation of Alfred.

Oh, good point.

I do not like it. It's, it's, I don't like it. I just don't, I don't like it.

As much as I love Andy Circus, I think he's way better than Andy Circus. Is Alfred in the Batman?

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't get me wrong, Michael Kane will always be the goat.

I don't like the Batman at all. Like, literally, Paul Dano is the only thing I liked about it.

Yeah.

Because I like Paul Dano a lot and I think. But yeah, it was like there will blood mixed with Batman. But yeah, I didn't, I just, yeah. Holly Hunter is, is good.

Scott Scoot McNary is Wallace Keith, the guy in the wheelchair. It's always funny because sometimes like with John Ham, I'm like, why doesn't he get more lead roles in movies, you know, and.

And I'm like, he's such a good actor in Mad Men. But he. Scoot McNary was in Halt and Catch Fire, which is a fantastic AMC show.

It's kind of low underrated because it came out before like a lot of these great movies. But it's about the computer industry, how it came into. Came to be. He was fantastic in that.

And then I see him here, I'm like, God, no wonder he doesn't get more stuff outside of shows. I'm like, this is awful. I hated what he did. So it. This was a dying lane. Fantastic. Again. Keeping the ship afloat. Holly Hunter. Was Holly Hunter here?

Fantastic. But everything else. Jesse Eisenberg. My God. Yes. No wonder you're getting passed up on. But you guys. Yeah. That was my one rant for the show.

There we go.

Like, I want to go on record say I forgot about Alfred in this movie.

Yeah.

And I completely agree.

Yeah. Do not.

So what was wrong with Alfred?

He just. He's just too. He's too energetic, too helpful. I just.

That's literally. Have you seen the Animated series?

No.

He basically.

I'm watching it with my animated series.

One which people consider to be the greatest. Alfred.

Okay, well, I'm going to watch it with my son and yeah, please. Maybe we'll put out a Kyle's cut. A Castro cut of this podcast where I go back and fix all the. I said that was wrong.

Batman anime series is hands down the best animated series series of.

I'm starting it with my 10 year old.

Yeah.

But make sure it's like the. The 90s one or whatever. Not the. Not. There's a.

There's a fourth season that's not right.

There's five. The other ones are fine. But like. Anyway.

Is that the Robin Williams Batman? I'm just kidding.

It's. It's Mark Hamill as the Joker, which I hope people.

Yeah. Kevin Conroy.

Yeah.

He's also. He's in the Arkham Games.

Yeah.

Oh, Kevin Conroy. Rest in peace. He's fantastic.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Probably my second favorite Batman. Is that weird?

No, not at all.

I love him.

I.

He's probably my number three behind Adam west and Christian Bale.

I love Kevin Conroy.

Interesting that these. This role for Jesse Eisenberg and Lawrence Fisher. Fish. Oh my gosh. Lawrence Fish. Fishboard Fishbourne. It's interesting that. Yeah.

Those guys, it is so different than their regular roles and it. It is like it. I forgot that he was in this movie. Not Jesse Eisenberg. The other guy.

Who's Jeremy Irons.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So. But it's fine.

2 to 0. It's so weird when you, like, go in real hard on your rant. You still didn't get. You didn't make a mark on the scorecard. Damn it. I went hard. I'm not.

And I was talking to him on the way over. I was like, I'm not really a negative person, but you're about to be nice. And I tried, and I got shut down. Yeah. Writing.

And that would be Jeremy Siegel. Joe Schuster created Superman giving all the credits here. Bob Kane. Bill Finger for Batman Creators.

But the character of Wonder Woman created by William Moulton Marston. You have enough names. Chris Terrio and David S. Goyer. Writers.

Wrote the script.

Wrote the script.

I think. I think we're probably all going to agree maybe for different reasons on this. It is going to just squeak under for me.

Okay.

And it is going to be a super bad.

Super bad.

Again, I do consider this to be the weakest of the three movies. I. I. There. There is just nothing specific I can point to, but just the kind of overall vibe of the dialogue I.

I do feel like was a little bit limited compared to the other two movies.

Yeah.

Three movies, really, that we're gonna watch. So, yeah, I, I give it a super bad. It's not my favorite. I don't think it's terrible. That's why. That's why it just squeaks under.

It's like a 4.9 for me. Like, like, not. Definitely not the worst dialogue. I've never. I've ever seen. It's definitely no shitty of angels, but.

Oh, come on.

But definitely, you know, nothing special about it.

Deal. On the episodes that I haven't been here. Have you still referenced shitty of angels.

As the Wicked Prayer? It's referenced.

And the Deftones.

I'm glad that we've all.

Because Tara Reed was in the last. The Big Lebowski.

Oh, yeah. So, yeah, we remember when she was.

She said her final prayer.

He literally texted me and he was like, how. How in the world did she go from the Big Lebowski to Wicked Prayer? And I was like, remember American Pie happened in between those.

I'm going to go. I'm going to go super bad as well. And to me, it's not even. Like there's. I don't even need all the qualifications.

I could just take two of them and I would be fine. 1. I feel like they butchered Superman to the dialogue. Satire. I talked about Not a fan of the dialogue 3.

They should have separated the movies into two movies. They should have ended with the Batman versus Superman and bringing. And with a slight reference to Wonder Woman in the scene.

But then bringing everything that happened with Doomsday on. That could have been. I mean, the Death of Superman is such a well known comic. That could have been the part three of this thing.

And it would have given them more time to focus on that part because it really kind of rushed through it.

Have you seen Snyder cut yet?

Would have given the ultimate. The one we just watched.

No, no. The Snyder cut of Justice League yet.

Have you seen it? Yes, I have.

Okay. Because to me it kind of had to happen because that's literally where Justice League begins, is the death of Superman.

I'm sure I'll have. Well, they could have put the Doom. They could have had Batman v Superman and then they could have had Doomsday.

Sure.

And that would have been so. And then.

And then also someone in the writer's room, whoever was the guy that said, okay, here's the 20 comics I want to reference in this and the different plot points I want to draw from. Someone should have been like, hey, here's an idea. How about like 10? How about 10 to 15? Make it a more.

There's a lot of material and it's surprising me that these are all like professional people that are working in Hollywood that nobody was like, hey, this seems like a lot.

Yeah.

So I'm going to go. Go super bad. I'm gonna go, so worse than super bad.

So super awful. Yeah, super. I go super as well. I. Malpractice is another word I want to use again. The Flash dream sequence.

Oh yeah. Is forgot about.

Out of control.

I love that.

I don't know what's going on.

You're not supposed to. It's setting up something that's gonna happen in four movies.

I know, but. But I'm so like deep and like just pretext here and like, is he dreaming? Is he having visions? And I.

The thing is that Flash is not wearing like, again, I'm coming to this. I'm not like familiar with the Flash outside of like images.

Nothing to do with the comics. This has nothing to do.

I know, but he's. I didn't recognize him as it took me listening to something else to actually confirm, like, okay, that was Flash in that moment.

I don't think you're totally supposed to though, because it's supposed to be very confused, confusing moment because you don't really meet Flash until Justice League. And then on top of that, this is a moment where they're in the nightmare scenario of Darkseid has basically converted Superman over to that point.

And so at the end of that movie is when they send Flash back to this moment. This moment was not supposed to be something to pay off until way later. So you're supposed to be confused.

So he's just a guy that pops out of nowhere.

You see those videos of the Flash.

Flash later in the sense of what you're saying. The actual point where they bring that back is in the Flash movie, which happens like four movies later with a different director currently.

So it is fair that you're watching this with none of that knowledge and you're like, what is this?

Yes. Yeah, I'm just like. And then all of a sudden, Batman's got a machine gun. You know, I'm just all of a.

Sudden, he has them everywhere.

That's another problem I have with the writing is it would have been so much more powerful if they only had him kill in the future, post apocalyptic, to make you think, like, wow, what has happened?

No, I mean, I disagree because again, we're 20 years into it and he's branding people and killing people.

But even, even Batman 20 years, even when you look at, like, the Batman beyond comics and stuff like that, he still has his no killing rule.

The only times you ever see Batman have his killing rule suspended is when, like in the injustice storylines when things are so bad and he's in this pot ostap. See, because I kind of viewed it when I was wondering that when I was watching it, when I was like, is he killing people?

That seems a little unbat man. But then my justification to myself, because sometimes you watch these movies and you try to make them good even if they're not.

And so my justification was, oh, he's. It's just movie where, like, they accidentally hurt themselves but they're not dead.

But then when you see the post apocalyptic stuff when he's just mowing people down, I'm like, oh, that's because life really sucks right now and he's become a murderer.

Yeah, I disagree. I mean, it's kind of like what you said at the beginning of this podcast. This is just a movie where, oh, okay, Batman kills people. Like, that's.

That's.

Yeah.

Thing.

I also think. I just think some of the pieces that were written in here were. Were forced to connect. Like, I still. I still don't think I. I know we disagree.

I just don't think we needed another watching Wayne's parents get killed just so we could say Martha later. I seriously think that's why it's there. That and then reasons. It's one of the reasons. And that. But. But I think the Martha thing's kind of dumb.

So I just like, you know, it's the supporting piece of the stupid thing that I don't like. And I think, yeah, I. Some of the, just some of the. The plot devices to the twists and turns, I'm just not. I'm also just not following in this story.

And I don't feel like I'm a dumb person, but I'm kind of having a hard time just kind of following along. And after the flash scenes when I kind of just like. And I get what you're saying, it's supposed to pay off later. But.

But the fact that I'm like is that flash. Like I know there's a flash eventually and.

But again, that's literally what he was trying to do. He was it because he had the master plan and Warner Brothers was doing everything they could to up that master plan. It seemed like he had no plan.

Doesn't make me like it anymore.

Even with the plan for this work hard note, I would have to. And I hate again, I hope we.

All agree on this.

I hope Zack Snyder never listens to this and gets his feelings.

I am going to show it to him personally.

Yeah, but that to me, all the little things for future movies that didn't pay out. I'm like, that's bad writing.

Yeah, yeah.

It's better than.

You know, again, you're looking at chapter two where he's setting up things for chapter seven and being like, well that's dumb that he would say that here. That's not going to do what.

And then you only get chapter three and then it's like, oh, that's all fucking stupid because you don't get to see the end of the book.

All right, two to one. Sorry. We got it. We got to get this going. It's 4:30 now. Yeah, I know, I know. We just got to get to the end of the card somehow. Two. Two to one.

Snyder barely know we're directing. Mr. Zack Snyder, you start.

All right, I'm going to. I do think he. I'm. It's tough because we didn't get to see his finished product. So what of this movie we did what we've. Oh, okay, good. Point of the.

Oh, well then if it's just of this movie, then Superbad.

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry. I was really.

Thank you for that because I was putting together this whole thing and I was like, I don't feel comfortable saying super bad based off of just three out of ten or whatever. But if we're just facing. Oh, for one. Yeah, super.

Yep.

No, I give it to him. I. Snyder. Barely an hour. I, I, again, I, I don't have any of the problems y'all apparently have with this movie.

Yeah.

I don't understand the problems. I accept that y'all have.

I read. Read it. That's why. I'm just kidding.

If you were able to go into.

That, you haven't been on the chat lately.

Oh, you're right, I haven't. Not in the last six months. No. Actually, it's been more like a year. I don't know. I think he did a good job.

I think, I think what he did with the visual tone of the movie. I disagree with you. I think he did take Superman's character in an emotional journey. Yeah, I think he did a great job.

I think he directed the movie that was given to him script wise, the best way he possibly could have. I think the fight scenes are some of the absolute best fight scenes I've ever seen in a superhero movie.

Even the biggest haters of this movie all say, but that Batman warehouse scene was fucking awesome.

Yeah. Like, yeah, that is a cool scene.

It just.

I've been liked the Batman vs Superman scene before and I almost, like, I know one of the critiques is like, they didn't fight long enough. Like, we build up this. Sure. But. And I, I could, I could have used some more.

I would have loved to see Batman get into like, the Batmobile or his plane to try to take on like, like just get bigger and more ridiculous with the.

Get more tools.

But the thing I love about that fight scene specifically is you literally just have two tanks going at each other. And it is slow. It does look a little clunky. But again, it's because they're tanks.

Yeah.

Neither one of them is supposed to be someone who's, who's super agile in this type of situation. It's a fist fight.

Yeah.

And I, I think, Yeah, I think Snyder with, with the script that was given to him, which I'm sure had a lot of his input, but also a lot of the studio's input was what it was. And I think he did the best that he could with it. So. Yeah.

Yeah.

Snyder. Barely know her.

I go super bad here and I just don't. I'm not seeing. It's funny that man of Steel was supposed to be three and a half hours.

I don't think that's true. I think I. Because when you put out the. The first cut of any movie, it's over three hours.

Yeah, well, that's what he intended it to be. Well, but he eventually got his way when they re released these cuts.

I think he meant for it to fully be that way with man of Steel.

Yeah. But I mean, maybe not. The research I found said he wanted the three and a half hour cut out there, but.

Interesting. I've never heard that about.

Well, maybe not. Maybe it's. Maybe it's just a Reddit myth.

Possibly.

Just kidding. But I don't think more Zack Snyder's better here. I. I'm often the plot devices I find muddle the story versus progresses it. I'm confused oftentimes.

But again, you're talking about writing.

Well, I mean, yeah, but what I'm seeing on screen, I'm just not.

He didn't touch the script though. He didn't write the script.

I know, but it wasn't. He didn't. He didn't. He's not presenting me with anything here. I just don't. Well, I don't like what I'm seeing. Let's just.

Wasn't directed well.

Yeah, this is not, this is not a ride I like being on.

Interesting.

Yeah, I don't like like, you know. And also here's the thing. I hate to put this back on Nolan, but I just feel like Nolan.

Well, he was pretty hands off by this one.

Oh yeah. I just think he's masterful and, and the way he's, you know, he's told these types of stories even though it's a little different.

It's with his, you know, Batman stories. But I just think the grandiosity of the Nolan thing is this like he nailed it.

And I know that we're trying to be grand here, but I'm just, yeah, I'm just. I'm not enjoying the ride. I don't like where I'm at.

I feel like I'm watching with all the movies, I feel like. With all of the Snyder movies, I feel like I'm watching abstract art.

And I've never been a big appreciator of abstract art where when I look at something, someone else be like, this is the most beautiful thing.

That's what I love about it.

And I'll look at. I'll look at the same painting like it looks like a blur.

Yeah.

I'm just excited to hear all the apologies about this. Once you all Watch Justice League.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, I'm sure I've already seen it. I've already seen the four and a half year long one.

To give him one compliment. Anytime Batman's on screen, I'm digging it. Like, I do like the Batman stuff. I think that stuff was done really well. But. Yeah. Anyway, I'm just.

I'm not enjoying the ride super bad. Not. Sorry. What's in front of us. Cinematography, production design, sound, costumes, editing.

I think y'all know my opinion. So y'all, y'all on it all you want.

What, are you just backing out now?

I'll say my opinion after y'all are done.

Okay.

Okay. I like that ending on a positive note.

Yeah.

So if we take editing out of it, I would. I mean, when we talk cinematography, I love. I mean, it's such a visually appealing piece of work to see all the. And, and just as.

I don't, I don't know, all the things that goes into making a movie that beautiful, but they do a really good job of it.

Right.

And then also with the soundtrack, that's very good. So all of the. What I'm seeing and hearing, like, it. It's presented very well. Yeah. The part of that qualification was editing.

And I'm kind of with you where, like, when I saw the shorter version, I was like. When I saw the longer version, I was like, still. So, like, so I don't. I think someone somewhere could have done something better.

And I probably think it's in the editing, but I'm not sure. But I'm gonna go ahead and give it a. Seth's dad Snyder, Barry Newer. Because.

Because, I mean, really, that is the redeeming factor of these movies is when you watch them, especially when you watch them on a big screen, you need.

To charge your lights.

I charged. I charged them. They were on the chargers all night. We've just been. We've been going for a while.

We've been doing it.

These are long episodes.

Yeah. We're doing the Snyder cuts of.

Yeah.

These were not Harrison's fault, by the way.

We outlasted the lights.

Yeah.

The lights were like, we're done with the movies.

Yeah. Yeah. I just realized the battery life isn't great on those.

Yeah. Apparently.

Yeah.

It's Snyder. Barely nowhere for me. I, I, again, like you said, I think it is visually incredible. I, I am a lover of abstract art. And I agree with you there.

There are so many moments, literally, like, my roommate came in as I was watching the end of it, and when he's being Passed down to Martha and Delois. It literally is. Is reminiscent of the. The. The Virgin Mary holding Jesus in that Renaissance painting.

There's a lot of stuff in it that reminds me of Renaissance.

When people relate Superman to Jesus. I do too.

Well, that was a big marketing problem they had with man of Steel. Was. That was very much presented as a Christ story.

Yeah. It definitely. Yeah, I. I agree with that.

Like, literal crucifix.

Yeah. But I. I genuinely think that, like, I love how he bases a lot of his visuals on, like, Renaissance wants type paintings.

Yeah.

So. Yeah. No. What's in front of us. 100 Snyder.

Yeah. I go super bad here just because of Doomsday.

Right.

Doomsday looks like a turd with teeth. I hate it. I hate fighting CGI enemies. It has to be done, really.

Watch a superhero movie. Then I had to for the podcast.

And you won the category, man. You won the war.

I'm still gonna roast you.

Yeah. I. I don't like Doomsday. The. The look here. And I get it. Like, there's no way to practically do that character. I. I didn't.

I've not read the comics, but I did research. I mean, I know it was pretty spot on, but I don't like what I'm saying.

It was pretty spot on. Like. Or origin content. What he was is just like. It was like they made.

They could have made in any other character, named it Bill and I would have been better okay with it than what we got. Insane Doomsday. Actually, there's no empirical evidence that that is the comic Doomsday other than Jesse Eisenberg at one point. You.

You're gonna be Superman's Doomsday. He could have been Bill the space invader. We don't know.

Could have been.

That's true. Yeah.

It could have been a sewer monster.

Yeah.

Which I think he was. I just don't like fighting big CGI things I didn't like. You know, I don't like this one reason I hate mcu. I hate watching anytime Hulk is on screen.

Hate it. I hate watching giant CGI objects take up a ton of space. Like, I think the best it was ever done was Lord of the Rings.

Oh, yeah.

With Gollum.

Yeah.

I. That. For some reason, that never bugged me, but I just never have seen it. In a way, with these superhero movies where I'm stoked about it.

I did not enjoy that. The editing, the pacing was way off. To me. There was some stuff that I.

I do not think should have made this cut that could have Maybe dried it up a little bit and made a little more succinct some of the decisions that were made that, you know. Yeah. Should have been left on the edit room floor. But I do love everything about Batman's costumes, his presentation. I do love all that.

So I love the way Batman was presented to us here. Yeah, some of the fight scenes were cool, definitely. But I can't, and I can't overlook the, the doomsday thing and the, but it doesn't matter.

You guys.

You guys, speaking of the cool fight scenes, did anyone else ever think that the, the cool scene with Batman saving his mom, did that not look just like one of the scenes in. I want to say it's the Dark Knight, where he, he gets the infrared and he's able to go in there and take out all the.

Oh.

Kind of like that's what it reminded me of a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

Three to two. Here we go.

In case you guys are wondering my thoughts.

Yeah, I love your thoughts. I love your thoughts. How good are these bad guys, huh?

I mean, we know where I'm going with this. I thought Jesse Eisenberg was great, and I thought Doomsday was fantastic. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go.

Snyder, Barely nowhere, we're gonna see if it's a squeak for you, because I know you like, like, I'm not gonna say love, but like Doomsday, but don't like Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor.

No, it's the, it's the opposite. I, I, they should not have done Doomsday in this movie. They.

At the best, they should have put him in a different movie and then kind of like what you were saying made him not like a space turd, you know?

Yeah.

Giant space turd. Here's the thing. I like Jesse Eisenberg's villain in this movie. I would have liked him so much better if they didn't name him, like, Lex Luthor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because when you say to a comic book fan, when you say Lex Luthor already, I'm thinking this, and then what I saw was not. And I, and I appreciate the difference that they brought to the stake, but I just think, just name him something different.

Just create a new villain for this new type of Superman.

Yeah.

I'm really on the fence.

I didn't expect it to be this close for him, actually.

I'm, yeah, I'm really on the fence with this.

So it'll be either a 5.1 or a 4.9, whichever direction.

Think about how good it feels to. On something.

I do love. I do love shitting on things.

How often do you get to just criticize somebody?

I'm gonna. I'm gonna go with a super bad. Oh, yeah, it's. It's. It's more that just came in his.

Pants dirty to me.

Yeah.

His laptop's about to fry.

Yeah.

Just because. Because. Yeah. I don't know. Internet.

Oh, yeah. Oh, super bad. I don't know what else I could say. Jesse Eisenberg, Horrible doomsday turd. Really bad Jesse Eisenberg. Everything about his.

His interpretation, his portrayal here. Not interesting. Annoying every shot. Every time he was on the screen, I was like, God help me. So fighting the. Fighting the CGI monster.

Totally a turn off for me here. Yeah. Super bad. Sorry.

There we go.

I just. Yeah. It's three to three with one category left. Oh, my God.

Curious to see what this category is.

We can't let this thing go to the finish line. Good lore.

Oh, yeah.

Not good Lord. Good Lord. Do we stick? You know, and again, I approach this as a non comic book reader interpreting. It just.

Does this hook me into the lore more and you guys have a little more context? But it.

Yeah, see, okay, this is one where I feel like the greater context of what he was trying to do is appropriate to bring in. Because again, with, with.

And even with the first Justice League movie, the, the things, the details that he puts in, not only is he pulling from other comics, but he's putting details in as far as, like. Well, I mean, because at the very end of this, we see Steppenwolf, that's going to be the main villain of Justice League.

Like, he's very purposefully setting up bricks for each of his next movies that he's planning on doing. I like the details that he pulls in. I. I think, Yeah, I think it's a Snyder barely knower.

Like, I, I think he does a very good job at setting up what his universe is. Whether you like the movie at the end of the day or not. I think it's very hard to deny that the details are there.

The details of him setting up whatever his version of the lore is. Even though he's pulling from a couple of details, different comics, and as that going for it, he sets up what he's doing very well.

Yeah.

So when you have a pizza.

Yeah.

It's important to have good ingredients, as Papa John's always told us.

Yeah.

So having the good background comics and the good lore from the different sources he had is important. He's grabbed from a lot of good ones.

But equally as important when you make a pizza is when you actually put it together and you cook it and you do the right portions and do the right actual culinary.

So that at the end of the day, the thing you're giving someone is actually a good tasting pizza, which be like, overall, what we got with Justice League and what we got with Batman versus Superman. And so for. By that logic, yeah, he's pulling from a lot. He is a knowledgeable comic book guy and he's pulling a lot of good things.

But I just feel like what he delivered us with, what he pulled out is. Is super bad to me. I just, I did, I did. I didn't think his. I thought it was.

It'd be, it'd be cool nods if the payouts justified the nods that he gave. And since you did, you did say we were allowed to look at the greater of the other movies as well. And so since I know we're also his master plan.

So since I know we're going at least just going into the next couple movies because they did continue to take some of what he was doing into the other movies.

It's just, it's just I, I appreciate the attempt to do something different and a little bit more unique or whatever, but like it often, frequently when I'm watching these movies, I'm like, okay, like, I mean, fair. But overall it's not like, wow. I loved that interpretation of literally anything in these movies.

Yep.

So I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go super bad, but not as super bad. I mean, I was passionate about the writing. Super bad. I'm just like, I. Super bad.

Yeah. No. Interesting. Yeah. For me, the, you know, this category has to be. Does it make me. Does it draw me to want to know more? I actually gave this a.

A Snyder barely know where I'm going to steal like that. He's just chopping at the bed over here on man of Steel because I was like, oh, this is. This is for the first time ever, I.

I'm not like in love with this, but I've never liked Superman and this actually gave me one that I like and could it explore more. But here I just feel like it's convoluted. There's.

There's callbacks built into future films and I understand the master plan thing, but I'm watching this movie now today and just thinking it's a slug. It's. I'm sluggishly getting to the end. I like everything Batman do.

But another thing I Realized about this story, lore wise, is, like, I didn't realize how much of what I love about Batman are the Batman villains.

Yeah.

Right.

And I'm missing that part of it, too. Like, and I. Again, I realize that's not this story, but I'm just realizing, like, man, Batman minus. Minus Joker, minus Scarecrow.

Like, there's so many great vil. Villains.

Yeah.

And I'm just kind of missing them here, even though I like what Ben Affleck's doing.

But part of that, I think, has to do with the Superman source material, though. I don't think Superman's villains are anywhere near as good as Batman's villains.

Yeah.

So I get that. I mean, even. Even if we just go the most traditional route, I don't think Zod is as strong of a character as the Joker would be.

I don't think that Brainiac is as good of a character as the Riddler would be. I don't think, like, Lex Luthor or. Yeah, Lex Luthor is as good as anyone. Like Falcone in the mob.

Like, I think I agree with you that part of Batman's charm is the villain, and Superman's source material just doesn't have the quality that Batman's does.

I agree with everyone except for Lex Luthor. Lex Luthor and the Joker have been frequently proven as, like, the two archetypes are all villains.

Yeah, sure.

But Lex Luthor bored me in the Animated series. Every time Lex was the main villain in the Animated Series, I couldn't care less.

Yeah, he's not great. Although in Justice League Unlimited, he gets a little bit better.

But the best thing about him as a villain is that he thinks he's the savior of humanity. The best part about him as a villain is, like, you could see his points and his delusion as to why he. He's. Minus the being a crazy psychopath.

He's just a really concerned human citizen for humans. Did he go about the wrong way? Absolutely. But, like. And so, like, his. That's what always makes him a good villain. Is that, like. Well, I.

He also has a lot of other things that make him a good villain. He's not. I'm not trying to be like, no, Lex wasn't wrong. Like, no. Like, he's. But I just. I feel like he's.

But in Superman, he's, like, typically the only good villain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like.

Yeah. So, yeah, I hate it. Like, it didn't. Yeah. Three. Three to four. Super bad.

Squeaker.

Let that sink in. Super bad. Seth, it's not.

You're all just heartless bastards.

Okay.

We established this at the beginning.

Yes, yes.

I'm actually okay with this ranking because, like, there are parts of this movie that I did enjoy. 3. Three parts to the four, you know, or whatever.

No, I can accept a squeak by as far as good versus bad and.

People'S opinions position with a microphone in my face, where I have to have an opinion and I have to, like, be truthful. Then.

Yeah, you're setting an example for the children out there, all the children who.

Are watching this podcast.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, there are some good parts. No, I agree. And there are things like. And I do like Zack Snyder's imagery.

Like, you guys were talking about the art part. Like, I do like that. That's something that I always dig. I just wish what was being conveyed to me was more cohesive, but.

Right.

But is this the worst thing I've ever seen? Absolutely not. It's not. It's not that bad.

We all sat through wicked prayer there.

Yeah, I know. And every time something. Every time something like this happens, I feel like it's just retribution for me making you watch it anytime like such. Yeah.

It's like, this is. He's never gonna. I remember him watching it tells me, like, wow. How dare you make me watch this.

Why else do you think I made you watch? Sometimes I think about dying.

Oh, I knew it. I knew it. Well, this is a lot of fun we got.

We're gonna do two separate episodes for the Justice League because they only share, what, 45 minutes of footage.

45 minutes of footage. There are two vastly different movies, so.

They warrant their own episode. So stay tuned. But thanks for chilling with us through this one. Love you. You. Kyle is my name.

Well, that was awkward. I'm Drew.

Have a great one, Drew.

Sorry. Love you. Bye.

Movie Wars.