In this week's episode, Tazmin chats with Michelle about belonging & culture fit in the workplace, and the impact of not feeling like you belong.

About Michelle:

Throughout her career, Michelle has focused on making meaningful connections at a human level between companies and individuals. As she delved deeper into the realm of psychology to improve marketing efforts, Michelle discovered in herself a passionate advocate for mental health. She’s deeply empathetic toward the impact of marketing and advertising on the emotional health of customers and made it her mission to campaign for the personal wellness of others and improve everyone’s understanding of the role marketing plays in the mental health of a society. In her current role at Feelalytics, she’s able to advocate for mental health on a large scale. Michelle recognizes that everyone processes events and emotions differently. By considering people’s varying levels of emotional development, she creates environments where everyone can express themselves authentically.

Where to find Michelle:

Michelle's Website

Michelle on YouTube

Michelle Stinson Ross LinkedIn

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Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the SEO Mindset podcast with your host, Tazmin Suleman. This week, I'm talking to Michelle Stinton Ross about belonging and culture fit and how that and the impact of feeling that you don't belong and what that does to you. Now, Michelle and I, we've never physically met, but we've had lots of conversations, really deep conversations sometimes, and I think this promises to be another one of those. A little bit about Michelle. Throughout her career, she's focused on making really meaningful connections at a human level between companies and individuals. And as she delved deeper in the realms of psychology to improve her marketing effort, Michelle discovered in herself a very passionate advocate for mental health. And I think that's where a lot of our discussions revolve around. She's deeply empathetic towards the impact of marketing and advertising on the emotional health of customers and has made it her mission to campaign for personal wellness of other people. In her current role at Philalytics, she's able to advocate for mental health at a really large scale by creating environments where everyone can really express themselves authentically. And that's what we want to do, isn't it, Michelle? Before we get into the episode, a little reminder that if you're enjoying our podcast and want to support us, there are a couple of ways you can do so. So one way is you could donate a one off payment to the Buy Me a Coffee page and there'll be a link in the show notes. Another way you could support us is spread the word. The more people that watch this or listen to this, the better we can get at doing our craft because we'll keep practicing more, we can have more people on and just add more and more value to everyone out there. So tell colleagues, friends, family, anybody that you think will be interested in learning ways to improve their careers, their lives and mental health as well. So, Michelle, welcome. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you for having me. I've honestly been really excited to sit down and talk with you. This is a topic that is a passion point of mine, so I'm very pleased to be sitting here and chatting with you today.

No, I'm pleased because to be honest, yes, you hear about these terms belonging, culture, fit, and you sort of think you know what they mean. But I certainly haven't really gone deep into the concept of belonging, so I know I'm going to learn something today. So let's start there then. How do you define belonging, particularly in a workplace, since it's more of something that people feel? How can you define it?

Right, well, it's funny, one of the things we wound up doing was actually asking a whole lot of people, how do you define it? What does belonging? And frankly, one of the things we found out was that belonging looks different in different workplaces. But consistently, things that we heard are acceptance, that people within the workplace are accepted for who they are, what they do. There's no aspect of, well, you can't be like that here. There's a level of acceptance. There is a level of authenticity. In other words, I as an individual can be my authentic self at work. I feel like I belong and I can be exactly who I am. No holds barred, no masks, no anything. I can be myself and that makes me feel like I belong. Psychological safety is also an important part of this in that I feel like I can speak up and say what I need to say and not fear any kind of negative repercussion. So that psychological safety to be able to use my voice, be authentically myself, and not fear that something bad is going to happen to me. Empathy is also something that tends to exist in an environment where belonging is a part of the mix, in that people can sit down and talk to one another and really feel like they've been heard, they've been understood. That on top of the understanding that the people around them really do care and they will work to help somebody. And of course, connection. I can't really be authentically myself. I can't experience acceptance unless I feel like there's a connection between me and the other people around me. Those sorts of things are aspects and components of belonging. Anything where parts or some of that doesn't exist, like in a workplace where I can't be entirely authentic, I can't be completely myself. I need to either change the way I dress or change the way I speak or anything in order to fit in to that environment. That's not an environment that's actually creating belonging for the people that are there.

That makes sense.

At least this way I'm not defining it in the negative in that, well, I know when it doesn't exist because it feels really bad.

Yeah, I think if I was to answer that question, I think the thing that resonated the most out of what you said was I can be myself and I'm valued as myself, so I don't have to be in a particular way. I don't have to say things in a certain way. So I guess in the title of the podcast there is a link to impostor syndrome. I guess it's almost like the opposite of feeling like an imposter.

Well, right. And guess what? We don't feel like imposters when we're in a space where we believe we belong. So I think there's a direct connection between the level of belonging and this feeling that I'm an imposter. I don't quite fit in. I mean, that's really what impostor syndrome is. It is a symptom of just not feeling like I belong.

How much of it is an inner thing as opposed to an external thing?

It's probably a mix. I would say that in this case because belonging is created by the community. Yes, a certain degree of belonging that I can hold within myself, that I can tell myself that I belong, hey, they hired me. Hey, they contracted me, therefore I belong. But belonging is something that's built over time within a community, within a team, within a group of people. And so as much as I can say I belong because I was hired, I was chosen to be here. But if I don't make those connections and feel like I can be authentically myself, then that feeling of belonging goes away. And that's when a person can feel like I'm a bit of an imposter. I don't really belong here, I don't deserve to be here because I don't fit in in some way, shape or form. And so in that regard, yes, it's mostly external because belonging has to be created among a group of people. It can't just be one person. Yes, I belong in my own skin, and that's about as far as I have any control over it.

So what's the relationship between belonging and culture fit? Because you hear often that seems to be like the last bit of an interview process. For example, I feel that she'll fit in or he'll fit in. Explain that a little bit more.

So in my opinion, culture fit has become basically the antithesis of belonging. So where culture is very defined and we're actually hiring for culture fit. Well, how can you hire for culture fit and hire for diversity thinking somewhere in there one of those has to give. Either the culture fit is going to have to give or the diversity is going to have to give. You can't hire somebody who is unique, different, brings in a different point of view, and then expect them to basically contort themselves to fit your culture. They might for a little while, but that's also exhausting and they'll probably leave. So companies that are trying to create more diversity within their workforce and yet have a lot of turnover among their diverse hires, it's probably because you're asking them to fit themselves to the culture rather than asking the culture to accept the diversity and authenticity of the people that you've hired. So that also has a lot to do, like you said with the interview process, in that at some point I'm going to have to demonstrate that I can fit into your culture rather than you just accepting me because I'm awesome and you want to hire me. Even an interview process, because I have been in some interviews like that, where it's like, well, we want to be sure that you're going to fit in when we hire you. What do you feel about this, that or whatever. And because it's an interview process and the interviewee wants to get the job, they're going to be inclined to say, oh yes, I can do that. Oh yes, I can do yes we can. For a time. But if it is not authentic to who we really are as a person, at some point that's going to have to give. Either I'm going to have to be accepted for who I am and be allowed to be authentic in the workplace, or I'm going to have to continue to dress a certain way, speak a certain way, wear a mask, not tell people about certain aspects of my life. And I have to put that energy into doing that and fitting in rather than putting that energy into actually doing the job. Fitting yourself into a culture like that is absolutely going to make you feel like an imposter.

I knew this podcast would get deep and my head's going ping, ping, ping with all these questions, we're going to be talking about workplace and what they can do in general. But now that we're talking about the interview process, so what would be a better scenario for that interviewer? An interviewee to cultivate belonging from the offsets?

Well, I would say interviewing just at the level of curiosity, again, creating connection and understanding. So instead of talking about, well, how you person that I'm considering hiring, how are you going to fit yourself into my culture? It would be more important to understand who that person is at a personal level. What do you do, what do you care about, what are your values, those sorts of things, and just seek to understand who this person is that you're considering hiring. It also allows, again, for that person that's being interviewed to be more authentic, that they don't feel like they have to say something in particular because the questions are open ended and genuinely asking about, well, what do you think about that? How does that value show up in your work or things like that and just enabling the interviewee to go, oh okay, I don't have to take on a role, I don't have to act a certain way. I can be me, I can bring all of my experience and values and who I am to this job and not just my skills or not just my experience that makes any sense at all. It really does have to do about rather than trying to understand how that person might fit into the culture, just try to understand the person and be accepting of who that person is and decide, yeah, this person brings a lot to the table that we don't have, it doesn't exist. Let's bring that into our culture and make ourselves better.

I wouldn't say I've had difficult, bad interviews in my life, but I don't think I've ever had that level of who are you? Let me find out about who you are. Because it's all about the interviewee molding themselves into the job and there is that expectation, perceived expectation. I'd say expectation because like you said, you want the job and there'll be times in your life where you are fortunate, where you don't have to have it. You're trying to find the fit, you have to have a certain amount of confidence and independence, financial independence, personal independence, all sorts of independence to be able to navigate that. But that would be brilliant if we could get to that point.

Well, and think about it this way. If we're going to talk again about belonging and what I said about it's not just one person, it's the entire team. So when you're interviewing, the things that you need to be looking for as somebody that's interviewing to hire is, is this person capable of accepting the people around them about providing connection and empathy so that they are helping to create this environment of belonging rather than detracting from it? And of course, that's exactly the thing that you should be sharing as an interviewee. What do you do to create belonging? How do you make the people around you feel like they belong with you on this team?

Yeah. So as an interviewer, you want to be pro belonging and you want the interviewee to also be pro belonging because if and when you hire them, then they too are going to be part of the culture or mix and you want to be able to enhance that ethos in your organization.

Exactly.

That's really interesting. I think I certainly need a bit of a breather to gather my thoughts. So we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we'll continue at this conversation. So, Michelle, welcome back. We've talked a little bit about what belonging is and how there is a connection between that and the culture fits and how to increase your chances of creating an organization with belonging through right from the interviewing process. Let's talk a little bit about how does belonging or lack of it affect businesses? Because there is this whole what's the impact of It question.

Right? Honestly, belonging can impact the bottom line of a business turnover. If I could write that word in capital letters. Turnover is usually driven by a lack of belonging. Like I said, particularly when you're trying to hire for diversity, if you start to break up a very homogeneous culture and bring different viewpoints, different experiences into the mix, all of a sudden you're going to upend the sense of belonging that everybody prior to that had to it. And you've got to figure out how I'm going to make the new people feel like they do belong or else they're just not going to stay. That is, especially here in the US. Is very common that companies will hire to meet a racial diversity quota or a sexual orientation diversity quota. It gets kind of weird here in the US. About quotas and diversity and stuff like that, but they hire thinking, oh, this is great, I'm going to add somebody who is a different skin color and brings a different perspective. But then that's it. That's as far as it goes. I hired them, shouldn't they be happy? Well, no, not if belonging doesn't exist. If you hire them but you don't ever make them feel like they belong, they're not going to stay even beyond that. Even the people that do manage to stick around and stay for a while, productivity is much lower among groups of people that don't have that sense of belonging. Because frankly, if I don't feel like I belong, then I kind of feel like I'm fighting the system the entire time. Like I said, that aspect of having to fit in, dress a certain way, talk a certain way, behave a certain way, I'm pouring energy into doing that rather than pouring energy into doing my work. So yes, my productivity is absolutely going to suffer because I am working so hard just to fit in in this place. And of course, if you're working that hard to fit in, you're experiencing stress. Stress going to drive absenteeism as well as lower productivity. Workplace injuries can happen due to stress depending on what the environment is and what the actual industry that you're talking about. But on top of all of that, as you keep digging deeper and deeper and deeper, you also find that trust becomes impacted and that can actually impact the relationship your employees have with your customers. So if I don't have a sense that I belong, if I'm not able to be accepted and be authentic about who I am, that I'm missing connection and I'm not dealt with with empathy, then I don't trust the people around me. If I don't trust the people around me, I may not be able to share that trust with our customers. It's going to lower the level of trust that our customers have with us when they're dealing with somebody that is stressed out and not productive and doesn't feel like they trust the people around them to do a good job, to be supported, all that kind of stuff. And it's really weird. We can push the button and do the job and yet still not feel like we belong. And it's not as good a work product quality as we could if we just felt like we were actually part of the team, that we belong there.

And I guess linking it back to this, back to impostor syndrome, if you're feeling like that, you're less likely to voice an idea that you've got. Your creativity isn't going to be on point, you're not going to progress as much because you won't want to take those opportunities. If you're already feeling stressed and burnt out before you've even got further than your actual day to day doing, you're not really going to add value to yourself, value to the organization.

Exactly.

I'd never thought about it.

That lack of belonging is really the underlying root cause of a lot of expense, turnover, productivity issues within any employee group.

Okay, so then what can workplaces do?

So that's where workplaces seem to be curious. So as I said at the beginning of this episode, we had to ask a whole lot of people well, what does belonging actually look like to you? And that's exactly what workplaces need to do. They actually need to just pump the brakes for a second and ask their employees well, what does it look like to belong? And I'm sure they're going to hear a lot of the same things acceptance, authenticity, psychological safety, empathy, connection in order to shift culture so that belonging is what matters. Workplaces can work on respect, they can work on communication, they can work on understanding and they can work on support. Support meaning demonstrate to individuals that they matter. So if I can't necessarily be happy in the level of belonging that I'm at but my manager wants to work on it, they can start with respect. Respect is one of those ways that you can show acceptance, right? That rather than nitpick somebody about the way they talk or the way they dress or whatever, they have the respect for that person to begin to show some acceptance. Communication obviously in all of this is completely key, that when we shift the way we communicate, we can start building belonging rather than tearing it apart. And sometimes it just is necessary to stop and go wait a second, is the way I communicate with the people around me actually building up that sense of belonging? Do I make my people feel like they're accepted, that they're supported? That I actually can connect with them on a personal level and understand them as a person rather than just a direct report? So communication is really important and obviously communication can then lead to understanding, become curious about the people that you work with. When you start to ask them questions and really try and understand who they are, then that sense of belonging begins to surface and you can build on it that way. And I have to point out here that it's not just leadership. Sometimes it needs to be built horizontally among coworkers and not just leadership. But I should say that also it's not overt leadership either. There are times when there are unintended consequences of modeled behavior. And I say this because I actually ran into a CEO at one point that he was really great about sitting down and talking to people individually and listening to them. He would ask them about their job and what it is they're doing and how could things be better. He was really good at sitting down one on one and talking to people and getting their input. But he was also a very shy and deeply private person. So as much as he would sit down and try and connect to somebody one on one, it was always about the job and never about them personally because he just didn't feel comfortable in sharing aspects of his own personal life. Now that was just a personality thing, but because he was consistently modeling that behavior of I'll ask you about your job but not your personal life. His staff got the unintended message that the personal life should be kept private for everyone, that we're not even supposed to talk about our personal lives amongst ourselves. And that led unfortunately to an authenticity problem that I can't entirely show up as who I am because the whole personal life thing is kind of verboten, it's off the table. And did he mean to communicate that? Absolutely not. That was just a personality thing about him that he's very private, didn't want to get deep in the weeds with somebody else's personal life and certainly didn't want to share aspects of his own personal life. So he would make sure conversations went in a direction about work and stay away from personal life. But like I said, it caused a situation where everybody felt like okay, we just can't talk about our personal life.

Wow.

It's just not a thing we do.

That'S such a strong impact from one individual's personal preferences as you were speaking. So years ago I worked with this great organization, not a bad word to say about any of them, they're brilliant. And it was coming up to Ramadan and I said to my manager is there a way that we can do something flexibly so I can spend less time in the office? And we worked it out that I would do 5 hours a day so I would come in at twelve, work to five, unless there was a meeting obviously in the morning and those hours that I wasn't there I would take annual leave. So we added it up at the end of the month and I took the equivalent of those number of days off. And that was great for me because it enabled me to do so much what I wanted to do. Then his manager cottoned on that Tazmin's workshift patterns have changed somewhat and in conversations I was a little, I wouldn't say reluctant, but because it was so out of the norm. This is pre COVID, pre flexible, you know, hybrid working. So I was open about what we had agreed. And I didn't know that actually that director had worked in Saudi for many of his years and turned around to me and said, oh, well, why don't you just flip your day around so you can do some work from home at nighttime and just spend less time in the office? And I said I didn't know that that was an option. But it's that perception, isn't it, that drives so much of our behavior.

Right? Because what is the perception of being in the office equals productivity? Because it's definitely not given now what we've seen post COVID. Obviously people are quite productive from home in less time so long as the job is getting done, do we really care whether you are actually in the office for X number of hours. Hours themselves do not equate to productivity.

Very true. You know what, we are coming to the end of our time here, and I feel like we've only scratched the surface. So I usually ask, what's the key thing people should could you know, that you want people to take away? If possible, could you give two key things, one for individuals and one for organizations? If you can't on the spot, then don't worry.

Okay. For organizations, I would say look at your numbers. If you're having a turnover problem, if you're having productivity issues, if you're having a high degree of people calling out because they're sick or whatever due to stress, then odds are very good that you have a belonging problem. And you need to step back and go, okay, what can we do to stop being so reliant on culture fit, and actually make our people feel like they belong? They'll be more engaged, they'll be less stressed, and they'll be more productive. What can we do? Reach out. I'll even plug a little bit. One of the things that feelalytics can do is actually do a belonging study inside your business and see where that actually lands. Do people feel 30% like they belong, 60% like they belong? We can actually measure that for you. And then from an individual standpoint, I would say be willing to hold out for belonging and not just culture fit. Because the more you feel like you belong, the more you are in an environment that fosters belonging, the happier and healthier you're going to be. That imposter syndrome goes away when you feel like you belong.

Next question. We ask all our guests, what's the best career advice you've ever received?

The best career advice I've ever received? Believe it or not, as a woman in tech, go with your gut. Because in our industry, especially with women, we're given all of these things that we're supposed to do. We're usually asked to do more than our male counterparts, all that kind of stuff. And so we constantly get these messages of, you're not enough, you need to prove yourself, blah, blah, blah. And the one person that said to me, go with your gut was not trying to tell me how I was supposed to do things, but told me to trust myself. And if that included maybe leaving a particular job and going and finding another one, trust your gut. You bring way more to this than probably other people are going to give you credit for. So that's my advice, is trust your gut.

And there's a huge amount of science to actually say that that's not just a wishy washy thing to do, but that's for another episode. Now, within the SEO world, there are lots of people doing amazing work. Who would you like to shout about?

I would like to give a shout out to Hannah Butcher at resignal. She has really stepped up in ways of advocating for all kinds of people that need advocating. She has stepped up for learning differences for people on the spectrum, just really acknowledging that neurodivergence is actually an asset and not a hindrance. So shout out to Hannah.

Brilliant. We'll definitely link her when we put this podcast out. And I will go off and find out a little bit more about her because I'm not that aware of all the things that she does, all of the wonderful things that you've just spoken about. And you, Michelle, if people want to find you, what's the best place to get in touch?

A couple of places. Obviously you can find me at my company, Fieldalytics. That's F-E-E-L-Y.

I'll put a link in the show.

A-L-Y-T-I-C-H.

Wonderful. Okay.

Fieldalytics.com is website. We also have a podcast if you're enjoying this conversation. My partner and Tina and I have had several conversations about mental health in the workplace, mental health on a personal level. So feelings matter. That podcast is ours, and I would be absolutely thrilled if you guys went and checked that out as well.

Yeah, and I advise you to do it because it's a lot of fun listening to Michelle and Tina. Absolutely a lot of fun. And you'll learn lots as well. So it's time to wrap up our podcast. Just a quick reminder to everyone. If you want to support this podcast, then there are a few ways you can do it. One is to donate via the Buy Me a Coffee page. The link will be in the show notes. Share and tell everyone about this podcast. And that leaves me with nothing else to do but to thank you, Michelle, for coming along, talking about this really interesting topic. I knew I was going to enjoy it and learn a lot, and I certainly did. And thank you to all of our listeners until next week. Take care.