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Discover if your workshop is Retention Worthy© here or visit his website, https://www.solutionsculture.com where the focus is on bringing reliable profitability to automotive workshop owners and workshop management through the Retention, Engagement and Development of their Technical Professionals.

Co-host: Anthony Perl

Produced by: 'Podcasts Done for You'

The ecosystem that breaks foremen.

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Join passionate automotive trainer and

coach Andrew Uglow as he unpacks the

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CAMPS framework, customers, advisors,

managers, parts, and sales, and reveals

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how these so-called time vampires

quietly pull foremen away from the

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work they are actually responsible for.

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In this episode, you'll learn why most

foreman burnout is not a personal failure,

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how urgency drags good people off their

mark, and why the foreman and service

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manager must work as a pair to protect

time, boundaries, and performance.

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Discover how to spot the systematic

pressures that keep foremen firefighting,

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and understand why the skill that got

someone promoted is not always the skill

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that makes them effective in the role.

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Along the way, you'll hear why leadership,

not just management, is the missing link

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in fixing the people

gap inside the workshop.

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I'm your co-host Anthony Perl, and this

is the Frictionless Workshop podcast.

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Let's get cranking.

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Andrew, I think we've got to tackle

this whole issue of the ecosystem

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that breaks foremen, because we've

been skirting around the edges of--

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We've talked in previous episodes

about capability and about measuring.

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But at the end of the day, what

is this ecosystem that is really

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going to cause the big issues?

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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So I call this CAMPS, C-A-M-P-S,

CAMPS, which stands for customers,

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advisors, managers, parts, and sales.

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And, and I, I call them time vampires,

and I'm, I mean this in the nicest way.

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I…

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nothing malicious.

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I'm sure the people that work in

the business are great people.

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I'm sure they mean well.

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They're trying to get their

job done, without question.

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And at the same time, these

are all the things that absorb,

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mystically absorb the foreman's

time In addition to all of the other

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responsibilities that the foreman has.

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And so I don't want to turn this

into a whinge about, you know, oh,

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the parts department, or the service

advisors, or this and all that.

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This is about a systemic issue that,

that exists, and if, if we can't call

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it out, well, how can we possibly

make steps towards addressing it?

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So yeah, CAMPS.

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It's the, it's the, it's the, the

pieces that are the time black hole.

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You know, I just spent 10 minutes,

20 minutes, an hour solving someone

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else's problem, and I didn't

get my responsibilities done.

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And so as a foreman, I keep

getting dragged off my mark.

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I keep getting pushed off my spots,

like being in the, in the ocean in,

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in, in waist-deep water, and you're

getting pushed around as the, as

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the currents and the tide move.

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And you, you're supposed to be

doing these things and you're not.

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You're doing those things.

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And for foreman, it's really frustrating.

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It's a big contributor to foreman

burnout, and it's also a really big

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contributor for some of the really

negative internal dialogue that I know

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that foremen run because they look at

their performance and they go, "Well, I

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should be able to do this, and I should

be able to do that, and I should have

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done this, and I should have done that."

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And they should all over themselves,

but at the end of the day, they were

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never taught how to manage this.

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They weren't given structures,

strategies, methodologies, tactics

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for dealing with th- the CAMPS, the

customers, advisors, managers, parts

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and sales teams that absorb their time.

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And it's not that those people are evil.

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They're not.

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They're trying to get their job done.

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But we're out of balance.

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And so I go back to this is a

systemic issue, not a personal issue.

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Anthony Perl: Begs the question then,

you know, with all of this stuff is

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how do you actually address this in

a meaningful way and pull it apart?

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Because I think one of the, one of

the issues that happens i- in all

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kinds of workplaces all the time,

and particularly on ones of the scale

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that we're talking about, is there's

this notion that everything is urgent.

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And so how do you fit

that into this landscape?

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Andrew Uglow: It's funny, I was listening

to a business psychologist, and they

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were talking about how the human

brain is wired to respond to urgency.

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You know, it comes out, out

of our, our primal part of the

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brain, fight, flight, freeze.

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You know, something, you know, when

there's a, a large animal about to

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eat me, well, that's somewhat urgent.

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You know?

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Sure, it's important that I, I, you

know, tuck my kids into bed, but

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that's not urgent at this point.

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So we respond neurologically to this.

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And so I go back to, if we're

going to resolve this issue,

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step one is a- awareness.

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If we don't have, firstly, even general

awareness, but better if we can have some

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really specific awareness around what's

actually happening, it's gonna be really

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challenging to put in place the parts

that need to be there to resolve this.

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And let me just put on my realism

hat and just go, I'm not sure

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that you ever will solve it.

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What I believe you can do

is you can mitigate it.

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You can stop it from stealing

as much of your time as a

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foreman that it currently does.

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And so this comes back if we go,

okay, so there's a problem here.

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Foreman's getting pushed

from pillar to post.

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They're getting pushed off their mark.

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They should be doing these things.

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They're now doing those things.

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We need them to do those things because

no one else can do those things, so w-

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we don't have another solution for that.

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So one of the challenges has

been that we just keep responding

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out of this urgency, and

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We don't pause and step back and

go, "Ah, well, hang on a minute.

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Let's take a little bit of a meta view.

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Let's do a helicopter view

and find out what's, what's,

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what's the driver behind that?

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What's the driver behind that?

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What's the driver behind that?"

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And I go, this is the foreman's job.

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Sure, the service manager owns this

'cause this foreman reports to the

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service manager, and there are parts

around good systems, good processes.

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There are parts where the service

manager has to have a discussion with

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the sales manager or the parts manager

or whoever it is and say, "Hey, look,

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want to help you, and can we do this?

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Because it's gonna work better for me

than it is what's happening now, and

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you'll get your stuff done as well."

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And so good systems and good

processes, and sometimes there

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needs to be some good discussions.

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Sometimes, and certainly this has been

my experience, some people that do work

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in those parts of the business maybe

shouldn't be working in those parts of the

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business Lovely people and all, but just

not suited to that role, or not skilled in

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that role, or not suited for the industry.

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And so you can-- I'm sure you

appreciate what I mean when I say that.

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Um, and have them work for

someone else rather than you.

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Those big pieces, th- those, those

big chunks, sure, they exist.

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Got to address that.

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But at the foreman level, the foreman

needs a way to, and we spoke about this

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before, how to maintain boundaries.

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So when someone comes to me

and says, "Andrew, I need

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you to da, da, da, da, da."

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Okay, no problems.

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But I've got all this other work.

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Which one of these am I gonna

drop in order to do that?

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Because I can't do both.

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And that's a tough conversation to

have because everything's urgent.

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You know, do, do you want

me to stop work on Mrs.

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McGillicuddy's car so I can work on Mr.

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Smythe's car?

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Because I can't do both.

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But the challenge is that foremen come out

of this world where when the pressure's

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on, they've got this really good work

ethic, generally speaking, maybe not

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all of them, but a lot of them, and

the pressure's on, fine, I go harder.

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You know?

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Just, you know, try me.

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Let, show, let me show you what I can do.

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And, and, and, and they do.

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They're very resourceful, very effective,

very-- This is why they're foreman, right?

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They're foreman because

they're good at what they do.

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But that doesn't work

in the role of foreman.

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The skill that got you to foreman

isn't the skill that makes

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you successful as a foreman.

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And, and no one seems to have

explained that to foremen or service

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managers even, for that matter.

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Anthony Perl: Speaking of service

managers then, where do they

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fit into the equation of this?

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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So having, I'm gonna use the

word privilege to work for a

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high-capability foreman and an

exceptional service manager.

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They, they manage this as a pair.

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This is a two-person challenge, right?

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So one of the things that I saw them

do was they put in place processes

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for certain types of things.

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So if there was a parts issue that

needed the foreman's attention,

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well, okay, let's-- that comes

to the service manager first.

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The service manager then does the

triage and goes, "Yeah, we'll get to

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that tomorrow," or, "We'll address it

now," or, "I'll have a technician come

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and do that for you," or, "One of my

service team will, will address it."

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So the, the service manager becomes

the filter for most of these things.

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So when sales go, "Oh, we've got a

car that's supposed to go out and,

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and pre-delivery didn't do this,"

or, "They didn't do that," or,

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"The battery's gone flat and I need

it done now and the customer's on

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the way and we're all gonna die."

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Sure, okay.

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We can address the urgent that are the

urgent, but don't just stop at that.

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Like go and put in place a

process so that doesn't happen.

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And usually the reason that the foreman's

the fixer is because there is a cascade

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of things that have gone wrong, and

they just end up being the bunny.

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And if they don't have the skill of

maintaining boundaries and having,

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I'll call them effective conversations,

they might be a bit challenging, but

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effective conversations and going, "Well,

hey, here's the reality of my world.

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I still have these responsibilities

even though this has occurred for you.

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How are we gonna make this work?"

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Uh, because there's usually a way.

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And look, sometimes it does mean

that the foreman doubles down or

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stays late or there's overtime or

there's, there's these other things.

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But just having everything get dropped

on the foreman's desk is profoundly

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ineffective, and I'm gonna argue harmful.

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Anthony Perl: The Frictionless

Workshop podcast is brought

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to you by Solutions Culture.

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For details on how to get in touch with

Andrew, consult the show notes below.

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00:09:59,165 --> 00:10:03,005

And don't forget to subscribe

so you don't miss an episode.

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Now, back to the podcast.

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What's interesting too here is, is that

it kind of points out to this issue

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that we've talked about in previous

episodes, where just because you're

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the best at the job doesn't mean

that you should be the person that

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is next batter up to be the foreman.

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Because the negative of that as well

is, is you can be taking your best

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technician off the floor, and in this

kind of situation can be proving that

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they've got the ability to fix the

problems, so just maybe if they were

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there fixing the problems all the time

and not being the foreman, we wouldn't

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have the problems in the first place.

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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So do I have permission just

to be out and out honest here?

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And I'm not gonna be rude, but I

just, I wanna call a spade a spade,

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because if we don't get awareness,

like how can you fix anything?

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So is that all right?

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Anthony Perl: Your show.

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You've gotta, you've gotta

have the honest- Yeah.

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We, we've gotta be honest

with you, don't we?

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But it's a-- But you're right.

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Uh, you're 100% right, and I think

it, people should be nodding their

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heads when they're listening here.

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Andrew Uglow: So if you wanna track

this back to cause and effect, and,

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and there's layers and levels of

cause and effect, this is a systemic

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failure, and this is, this is a

systemic failure at a leadership level.

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So this, this starts with

the dealer principal.

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And dealer principals, if

you're listening, please, I'm

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not throwing you under the bus.

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I recognize the difficulty and

complexity that you deal with.

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Uh, and at the same time, given

the reports, and we're gonna talk

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about this in another episode.

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Given all the reports and the, the

pressure and tension on margin and all

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these sorts of things, this is the perfect

time to go and solve the leadership issue.

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And the leadership issue starts with you.

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Uh, but it cascades down.

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And

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there is a vacuum of leadership.

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We're, we're pretty good at management,

generally speaking, in automotive,

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but there is a vacuum of leadership,

and the two are not the same.

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Leadership looks after the person as

much as they look after the numbers,

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and the consequence of looking after the

person is you look after the numbers.

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You just do, because

people produce numbers.

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The numbers don't just

magically occur by themselves.

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Sure, you need systems, technology,

all those pieces, gotta have.

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Sure.

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But it's the person who's

delivering the outcomes.

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And so start with the person.

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Don't start with the system

and throw the person at it.

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Start with the person.

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It matters.

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And when we talk about starting

with the person, everybody needs

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reward, recognition, and resource.

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If they don't have the resources,

how can they possibly perform?

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And the difference between retention

and departure are those three things:

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recognition, reward, resource.

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It's not hard.

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Other indus- industries can manage it.

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In fact, other indus- industries do

brilliantly because they don't get

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stuck in this obsessive compulsive

monthly urgent cycle of hit my numbers

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If I manage my people well, if I lead

my people well, if I install leaders, if

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leadership's not my strength, no problems.

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Find someone who has that and install

them in the business, and then let

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them continue to install leaders.

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Because if my foreman has a great

manager, then I'll have a great foreman.

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And if I've got a great foreman, I'll

have a great technical team because the

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foreman produces a great technical team.

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It doesn't happen overnight,

but it happens because

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that's what great foremen do.

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And if I've got a great technical

team, how can I not hit the numbers?

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How can I not maintain and retain

my people, maintain my skill

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and retain my peop- like this,

this is cascade up and down.

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We know this.

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This is not new

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80/20.

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I know 20% of the industry are

doing it really, really well, and

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this shows in Deloitte's figures.

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If you're across the lat- latest industry

Deloitte report, you'll see it there

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And the ones that aren't, arguably

it's 70/30, but let's call it

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80/20 'cause we love Pareto.

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The ones that aren't are

the ones that struggle.

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They're the ones that are,

are really feeling the pain.

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And De- Deloitte came out and

said this, and, and we'll talk

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about that in the next episode.

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Um, but Deloitte came out and

said, "This is a people problem.

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As much as it is a numbers and a

financial problem, it's a people problem."

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So yeah, get it done.

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Anthony Perl: It's interesting to me

when you look at some of the things that

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you've been saying there, particularly in

regards to the best people, because it's

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the best people for the team, isn't it?

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I mean, I think sometimes it's not always

the top people in every single position

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that are going to make you work well.

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I mean, you'd look at

that in a football team.

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Often the football teams that get amazing

results are the ones that work as a team.

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There might only be one or two

out-and-out superstars, but it's

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the team mentality that goes well.

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Whereas sometimes, and you look at

international teams, and you put the

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best of everybody in the best positions,

there's too many people fighting for

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control, and it just doesn't work.

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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Jim Collins, I forget the name of

his book, he talks about getting

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the right people on the bus.

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So the right people on the bus in

the right seats, and it matters.

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And so maybe your service

manager might be a great manager.

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You need leadership across

your service and parts.

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You don't need more management,

you need more leadership, because

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leadership plays from a human element

as much as they play from the business.

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They don't ignore the business.

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It's not one or the other.

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It's parallel, and the gap is the

people gap, and that's what's hurting.

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That's what's showing up

in the financial figures.

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Anthony Perl: So just to wrap

up this episode, give us a

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tip for what they can do.

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What is the one lever that they should

be pulling in this particular scenario?

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Andrew Uglow: So for foreman, my, my

response would be to, to, to maintain

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your boundaries and to do it respectfully

because the person that's asking me to do

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this, they're trying to get stuff done.

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They've been put in a tight spot too.

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So do it with empathy, right?

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Don't do it-- Don't throw

them under the bus, okay?

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'Cause you got, gotta work together.

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And, and where you can,

bit of give, bit of take.

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Um, but that question that I mentioned

earlier, "Okay, if I do this for

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you, what can you do for me?"

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Or, "How can you help

me get my things done?"

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'Cause there might be something.

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Now, obviously, if it's diagnosed a,

a deep, complex, complan- compound

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00:16:18,853 --> 00:16:23,294

technical issue, perhaps asking the

parts guy to do that is a bad idea.

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But there might be something

else that the parts guy could do

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00:16:26,294 --> 00:16:29,733

that could speed up another part

of the system or the business.

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"Hey, look, could you da, da,

da, da, da, da, da for me?"

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Because that now takes the time

that I was going to spend here away.

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That solves that problem for me.

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So start to think a

bit more strategically.

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But also ask that question too of, of

particularly when it comes down from

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the top- "Hey, you know, Andrew, I need

you to go and do this, this, this."

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No problemo.

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Which one of these do you want

to have held up while I do that?

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00:16:56,710 --> 00:17:01,570

Because that gets the thinking out

of the urgent panic, we're all gonna

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00:17:01,610 --> 00:17:04,030

die, into a more strategic stream.

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And when you start to be more strategic,

you can actually avoid the potholes

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before they, before you hit them.

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00:17:11,950 --> 00:17:13,530

Anthony Perl: Well, that's all

we have time for in this episode.

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But if you realize today that your

foreman is being dragged off their mark by

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00:17:17,470 --> 00:17:22,530

customers, advisors, managers, parts, and

sales, it is time to stop treating that as

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00:17:22,608 --> 00:17:28,470

a personality problem, and as Andrew says,

start treating it as a system problem.

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The next step is to look at where

urgency is stealing time, where

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boundaries are missing, and where

the service manager needs to become

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00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:40,390

the filter rather than letting every

problem land on the foreman's desk.

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A workbook has been created to

accompany this episode of the podcast.

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00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:47,490

It's got questions for you to

answer, key quotes from the

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00:17:47,530 --> 00:17:49,850

episode, and action steps to take.

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00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:52,910

You can download your copy from

the link in the show notes.

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00:17:53,250 --> 00:17:56,970

Lots of information in there as well

on how to get in touch with Andrew

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00:17:57,030 --> 00:17:59,230

and his team at Solutions Culture.

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00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:02,930

Make sure you share this with

your service manager as well.

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But whatever you do, don't miss our

next episode because Andrew will

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00:18:06,730 --> 00:18:10,670

be unpacking how to install foreman

effectiveness without tanking the month.

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00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:14,750

He gets into why sending a foreman

off to a two-day training course

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00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:19,530

can actually compound the problem,

and why coaching may be the missing

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00:18:19,610 --> 00:18:23,770

bridge between knowing there is a

capability gap and actually closing it.

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If you want to build foremen who can

perform without blowing up productivity,

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00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:30,730

you can't afford to miss the episode.

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00:18:30,790 --> 00:18:34,970

If you found value in today's episode,

wherever you're tuning in, please

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00:18:35,050 --> 00:18:39,050

like, share, comment, and subscribe

so you never miss an episode.

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00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:43,370

Until next time, keep your workshop

running smooth and frictionless