This week on the show Shaunna and Lisa discuss several major sporting events that have been happening around the world in the last few weeks and the decision-making that comes along with sport. 

Although they seem unrelated, we discuss such major events as the Beijing Winter Olympics doping scandal – including the comparisons between skater, Kamila Valieva and summer Olympics track hopeful, Sha’Carri Richardson; Super Bowl 2022 performers; as well as the Rooney Rule in the NFL and how it’s NOT producing the results intended with diversifying head coaches.

Although there is much to discuss in sport – like Snoop Dogg, Mary J. Blige, and Dr. Dre’s Super Bowl halftime performances and Coach Brian Flores suing the NFL and multiple teams – Shaunna and Lisa finally land in a place that requires change to be initiated from the top. Decision-makers in sport – all the way up to the International Olympic Committee –  must consider the global disenfranchisement of some, to the benefit of others.

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[un]phased Episode 75

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

nfl, watched, sport, owner, lisa, coach, people, russian, athletes, artists, rooney rule, hired, working, winter olympics, rule, guilty pleasure, halftime show, interesting, halftime, thought

SPEAKERS

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield

So, Lisa, I have been in over my head with so many clients around that. Yeah, I have not kept up with Winter Olympics the way I should have, especially in comparison to how much we dissected Summer Olympics. So shame on me for not keeping up with that. And literally the only thing that I've done that's been sports related whether it's internationally or nationally was watching the halftime show, and not even I didn't even watch that live right. I waited till the next morning and watched it because it was already on YouTube. And that's it. I've been really pitiful with keeping up with sports. How about you?

Well, I did not watch the Super Bowl nor did I watch the Super Bowl halftime show. Live or afterwards so but I have been intermittently watching the Winter Olympics and random stuff like skeleton and other stuff. I don't know biathlon the shooting one the shooting in the skiing one. And then, I've been watching a lot of ice skating. So I have some thoughts around that. I also have some thoughts around the NFL.

Oh, well, there's been some drama with the ice skating and there. There's been how many years 30 years of drama with the NFL. So let's talk about that. I'm Dr. Shaunna Payne gold and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by she her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance So Lisa, what has been going on? Because all I know is I woke up one morning and saw a very irate tweet from miss Sha'Carri Richardson to the IOC concerning what she viewed as unfair. And I'm like, What in the world is going on here? Which agencies are we working with? Now? who did what? You know what in the world is going on? Because Sha'Carri just kind of came back out of the woodwork again. And I'm like, okay, who's ticked her off? Now? What's going on? Is it legit? And which which side do I want to stand on with this, whatever's going on? So what's happening with the ice skating situation?

Oh, well, I think it's legit. And so there's a 15 year old Russian ice skater her name's Kamila Valieva And she tested positive for a performance enhancing drug back in December, a drug that actually is designed to or used almost universally for extending your endurance in sport. And yet, she was allowed to compete in the Olympics. And so she appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. And they said, because she was a minor, that she could compete. So this, of course, created significant problems, a lot of athletes. were frustrated by that, that she got to complete I believe she was the world champion, or was very, very skilled. And so the whole question was, was she going to win? Right, once you're gonna win gold? Or was she going to get on the podium? And then what would that do, knowing that she had this positive drug test? And I guess there is. It's fairly convoluted this story, but it sounds like the drug test happened in December, and then the Russian version of the US anti doping agency suppressed it. I would guess, purposefully, but I don't know that. The positive test had happened until after she'd already competed at at least one event at the Winter Olympics. And so then that's why I went to the court of arbitration. Yes, or to see whether she could continue in the games. And so Sha'Carri Richardson is saying, how is this different from my situation? I was smoking marijuana. My mother had just died. It's not a performance enhancing drug. And I missed the Olympics. And so it feels like a double standard. And the only difference that she could see is that Sha'Carri Richardson is an African American woman and Valieva is a white woman, and a minor because she's 15.

Well, and now that's interesting, because me knowing very little about both situations. I feel like, you know, yes, we're dealing with two different committees to different agencies. But it seems like the American agency rushed to get the results back, whereas with Valieva it was, oh, let's just sweep this under the rug until we kind of have to share the results, and then let things fall out where they may. And ironically, based on what I saw, she didn't do so well anyway, had multiple falls. So I don't know if that's just karma coming back around. But it just seems very interesting that, you know, is there some level of corruption in both directions where you have, you know, let's rush to get the results out to keep someone from participating? Or let's hide the results for as long as possible to allow someone to compete. Both of them are corrupt in just different directions, but it both sounds corrupt to me.

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, we probably should do our due diligence and dig a little little deeper, but certainly, I think just say that they're not comparable, is a bit disingenuous. Yes, Shikari, Richardson was given the month suspension by the US anti doping authority, not the Russian one, and not by the IOC. But you still have a situation where an athlete was prevented from competing and was likely to race and be placed in the top three, right? And then you she's African American, and a white athlete who doesn't have those same standards. And it's predicated on the fact Well, it was Russia, not the USA, and she's 15. So different rules apply. And I'm like, well, are those rules written down? Because it caused all the trouble on the Russian team, I guess, the Russian Olympic team that skates won gold in the team event and the US came second or third? I don't know where but none of the teams are getting their medals. Until this issue with Vallieva has been resolved and so right to us, he appealed that to the Court of Arbitration for Sport to say, can they have their medals now? And they said no. And this can take months, maybe even years to figure out because it could be that in further exploration, right? The IOC just essentially wipes the Russian team from any medals, and the US would get silver or bronze. So, right. Yeah, I think you're right. I think corruption is there. The motivation for said corruption is different. Right? And, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It feels just very suspicious. And then the other piece that's interesting, is, there's been a lot of conversation around the fact that she is 15. She is a minor, kind of the reputation of Russian coaches, or the Russian kind of sport machine and how they chew up and spit out young athletes. And when Valley Ava came off of her final skate where she had all those falls, right, which maybe was or was not karma, right? Because obviously she was under a lot of stress, and as well probably doesn't have the capacity to process that effectively. So she didn't do very, absolutely. The first couple of things that the coach said, were parading her for such a poor performance, like why did you give up because there was a commentator who was translating the Russian as, right. So then, you know, she bursts into tears. And then her teammates are in tears, and just awful, awful. And I guess it prompted the IOC President to actually come out and say that it was pretty despicable how the coach treated. The IOC President doesn't usually do that, because he's so apolitical. But right, right there. So, no, this whole so coaching abuse, potentially, you know, on top of it.

Oh yes, absolutely. Coaching abuse, especially at that age, and it really reminds me of countries that have very young athletes that are in sport, as well, as countries that, you know, they start training their athletes at tiny, tiny, I mean, a lot of countries start training their athletes at age three, four or five, to get to the Olympics, knowing that whatever cash awards may be fed right back into their country. And so, you know, this kind of makes us think about comparative wealth here, you know, if a US citizen received a monetary award, it pretty much is theirs to use as they want to, and it may or may not be life changing, you know, just depending on how much it is, but in other countries, you know, $5,000 could be, you know, the town's livelihood for a year. You know, and so, you know, given that there's much different pressure based on what country you're coming from, based on how much your country has invested in you, and how much they expect in return from you as a result of being on the podium or not. So, yeah, that that makes me kind of nervous. And the first thing I thought about is as I because I did see the the photos of the coach berating, the athlete, I'm thinking to myself, that feels very, like 1980s Gymnastics ish to me, because we saw a lot of that back then when I was growing up where we saw a lot and it was normal. It was very normal. Not that many people you know, called it out as something that was inappropriate, especially for athletes that are usually younger, usually gymnast or pretty young, no one really called it out like that. And so now it's we're in a different context and a different environment, and they're not going to tolerate that. Right, especially after the mini scandals that have happened against young athletes across sports, they're not gonna tolerate that foolishness at all.

Well, I mean, I hope you're right, I, you know, there's been talk of extending the age or other highering the age. So right now, I think it's you can be in the Olympics at 15, 14, or 15. And so there is a pretty strong given, I think, for saying that you should be able to compete in the Olympics until you're 18. Would that mean that kids are then not beginning that intensive training at three or four years old, I don't know. But it would prevent that level of pressure, perhaps on the world stage, at least hitting a teenager who's not fully developed and has no capacity to resist?

Yeah, and see, that's going to be very interesting for those sports that thrive off of youth, you know, because a lot of especially when it comes to gymnastics, and a few other sports, somewhat swimming, you know, it's almost as if you're, quote, unquote, aging out at 1890. Like, you're treated like, you know, geriatric in the sport, because you've hit that particular age, whereas for other sports, that's pretty young. You know, 18 is pretty young, that's old for certain sports. So it's relative, so that it's going to be interesting to see how athletes and coaches advocate for their specific sport in relation to age, but then it does have that trickle down effect of, you know, what's going to be tolerated or not in sport. But, you know, there there are enough sport to go around that have been really affected deeply by abusive coaching, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, on and on, they would have a good case for it, they wouldn't really have a good case for it. So well, let's pivot a little bit because we haven't watched enough of Winter Olympics to comment on it, other than I have watched a lot of the environmental complaints, I've watched a lot of that like seeing, you know, seeing the smokestacks behind, you know, the snowshoe, I'm like, Oh, that's very interesting. And beyond think that through, did you or maybe that's the only place they had to do it. I just, that was very interesting to me. But let's pivot a little bit, because I promise you, I have not followed NFL until this announcement of who was going to be performing at halftime. And that's when I watched a little bit of that I didn't even watch it live. I watched it recorded the next day, because we know everything, everybody's businesses on YouTube, but you know, in less than 24 hours. So I watched that. And I just thought it was very interesting. The responses to that. And then right on the heels of all that, here we go with a very interesting new lawsuit on an old issue on the Rooney rule, right? Why are we still having this conversation? We've been having this conversation. Since I was a little kid. We now have another coach Brian Flores, who is suing the NFL and three teams alleging racial discrimination in hiring practices, even given his very long winning resume. Yeah, this is this is not going anywhere. And are we going to get to a place where we realized that the Rooney rule is, like you say, often, Lisa, window dressing for what needs to be done next? Because it ain't working? It's not working? It's not working?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it's the Rooney rule itself that isn't working. It is the largely affluent white ownership of teams in the NFL. Excuse me, that isn't working. Yeah, in my opinion. Um, I think that. You know, I wonder about that halftime show. In terms of there's the critiques that have come out right, or saying that it was an attempt by the NFL to address the fact that they are actually pretty good around race. Like they're not discriminatory. They don't have implicit bias. Look at this halftime show. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I have not watched it. But I definitely caught some headlines that were critiquing it in terms of that perspective.

Well, I do know now one of the stories that just kind of popped up in January, we'll see where it goes. And this is out in your area. Lisa, that billionaire Roberts Smith is considering buying the Denver Broncos if they hit the open market, and so he might legitimately be the first black owner in the NFL in over 100 years. Wow. Yeah. Wow, in 100 years. And so and, you know, obviously he could do it. His portfolio says he could do it. I think he's got a net worth of almost 7 billion. I remember him from a few years ago, where he did an amazing commencement speech at I believe it was Morehouse College. And he wiped out everyone's debt while I was there. So everyone walked across the stage being debt free. Oh, yeah. And so I remember him from that. And so when I heard of his name in connection to the Denver Broncos and saw his face, I was like, Oh, my God, that would be incredible. I've only read of him in philanthropic ways. So obviously, he's fantastic in business, but I've only heard of him doing philanthropic work. And so given that, you know, once he paid off all the debt with Morehouse College, it added up to well over $34 million that he gave to those students. And so, you know, I'm just wondering that that could be kind of the the big pivot of the NFL is that, you know, he's paving the way, hopefully, he will continue to educate other, you know, other potential black and brown owners to do the same. But, you know, you're right, we're not going to see a lot of change in the hiring practices unless we see some change in the ownership as well. But it's not working. You know, what, what happens? Because, Lisa, we've seen this in, in hiring for faculty, you can have all the policies in the world that say that you need to have underrepresented people on the finalist list. But that doesn't mean that that person is going to be selected. That just means they've hit compliance, and we just move on. So it ends up being performative. And it's setting up each team to be performative. And I think it backfires. Because it shows that, oh, you have plenty of black and brown coaches out there that you could choose from, but you're choosing not to choose them, right? Because you wouldn't even have them in the top three, four or five if they weren't out there. There. Right. And I think that's what Brian Flores is saying, you know, his laundry list of experience, you know, three seasons with Miami to winning seasons. And, you know, still not being hired. I think his I think his lawsuit is legit, I'm gonna keep following, but I think his lawsuit is legit. And it's not the only one that's been legit over the years.

Yeah, so the Rooney Rule was developed back. Gosh, I'm not gonna get the decade right but a little while ago. And Dan Rooney, I believe, was an owner. And so he took it on himself to try and address this problem of a complete lack of racial diversity in the coaching staff of the NFL. And he would be what we might consider now a white ally. I mean, by that generation standards, so nothing is right. So well as what we might expect now, but certainly right is trying to push his fellow owners to do something about it. And so I guess a number of suggestions around more progressive issues, were up for discussion, and they just got shut down immediately. And so what the owners settled on was this rule that required that there must be at least one, quote unquote, minority person in the finalist group that gets interviewed for any head coaching position, so the rule got approved. And there were a couple of civil rights lawyers that were behind this also. So Johnnie Cochran may have heard of, and then another guy named Cyrus, Mary. And they had done a report finding extensive bias in the NFL. So despite the fact that teams with African American coaches had a higher percentage of games that they had won, they were less likely to be hired and more likely to be fired. So this that was kind of the impetus that pushed the NFL to do something about it. And so the first head coach hiring after the Rooney rule, the coach did not sorry, the owner did not follow the reviewer role, and nothing really happened. Okay, and then I guess, a Cyrus Mary guy called the commissioner and said, the rule is meaningless unless there's accountability. Right, right. accountable, otherwise, the rule is dead. It's before even gets out of the starting gate. So again, then I don't think that first owner was fine. But then the next person, the next owner that didn't follow the Rooney Rule was fine. Something like 200 or $250,000. Now remember, this was like 20, 30 years ago. So that's a significant amount of money. Right at that point, when owners realized, oh, there's this monetary consequence if I don't do this. They all stopped To fall in line, and that's when you started to see the number of African American or non white head coaches, obviously still all male increase. And so I think the height was about eight non white male head coaches in the NFL, but then at some point in the last decade, another owner hired someone, I think it was Gruden, actually the guy that just recently got fired for sending all those racist emails and said, which is funny, right that it would be the owner that hired him. That didn't write funny, I guess obvious. Right, right. Follow the Rooney Rule. And then the Commissioner Roger Goodell did not find him. So I don't know whether there was a different commissioner at the time that the rule Rooney Rule was instituted, but what I do know is that that non binding situation basically gave license to all these other owners to just ignore the Rooney rule, because now there's no requirement that they have to include minority candidates in their slate of candidates.

Yes. So which then just opens the door for people to continue doing whatever they want, knowing that there's not going to be accountability, and then having, you know, the precedent of going back to say, Wait, you didn't do anything to them? Why are you doing something to me? Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh, incredible. Well, and you know, I'm interested, I cannot wait to hopefully, we'll hear something from Roger Goodell, the Commissioner, because he has had kind of a journey along this process of thinking about this when it comes to a lot of different things. I mean, I remember when, you know, he was interviewed to really speak to even all of the hoopla that happened around Colin kapernick. And at first the silence around it, and then speaking of it later, saying that, you know, kind of condemned it and now say, Oh, we were wrong. You know, I'm, I'm interested to see if he's moving along this trajectory of Wait a minute, maybe we need we do need to get more aggressive. What are we going to do? I know, Lisa, you and I recently noticed that the NFL did hire some more staff that specifically focuses on on diversity, equity and inclusion work. So I believe they either already had a chief diversity officer or they were hiring a deputy chief deputy diversity officer. So they have staff who are supposed to know next steps around this. Let's see if they empowered them to do the work around it. Right? Because that's what's going to be interesting, Robert, Roger Goodell has, I'm not saying he's anywhere close to someone I would consider an ally. But I am saying that he's had progressively awakened moments when it comes to Black Lives Matter moments, etc. I want to sit back with the popcorn and see what happens next in regards to this knowing that he's on that journey, right? Because why? Why have diversity officers in on your staff, if you're not going to allow them to do anything and they are now performative, you will get called out on that, by maybe not by current players, but certainly by retired players and those that no longer have to play beholden to the NFL or their specific team. They're gonna speak on it, Hall of Famers will speak on it. A lot of folks will be free to speak on it, for sure.

I think I feel like you are being very gracious in your belief that Roger Goodell is on a journey, and he's actually had some awakening moments. I'm like, it's all about money.

It still is. Absolutely. I mean, like, it's completely disingenuous.

He's doing it because his hand is being forced.

Well, yeah, I agree. And that's where I don't think our points are incompatible. I think that he has had ongoing awakening moments. But that doesn't mean that those awakenings are going to overshadow money. They won't, right, not as commissioner, they won't now maybe one day, if and when he retires, and he's no longer Commissioner, maybe he may say some things that he wouldn't say as a commissioner. But, you know, even for me, I feel very similarly to you that money is going to speak more loudly than equity will ever speak when it comes to that league flat out. And so, you know, I'm not keeping the bar high. I'm just saying that I've seen some progress. Definitely not an ally, but some progress. Let me just leave it right there. So yeah, yeah, I agree with you.

Although, I mean, wasn't it? What was that? rule that was in the NFL until very recently, they were still using it to determine was it opening pay, like the assumption that non white players were genetically less intelligent? And that was still Yes,

yes. Yes. Right. Yep. Exactly. Yeah, it sure was. Yep. And that only recently went away. So yeah, you're right.

Yeah, so this is one of the many reasons why I no longer follow the NFL and I gave up my season tickets to the Denver Broncos.

Well, well, and I'm with you on, you know, that is one of the things I thought was very interesting about about the Super Bowl, of course, is that Oh, interesting. A lot of my people who have been boycotting the NFL for years now came out of the woodwork to watch the halftime show. And I'm like, I'm trying not to be judgmental, but let me I'm just gonna stay right here. So yeah, that's that that to me was very interesting, because it was kind of like, that is a catch 22, right, because you don't, you may not support the NFL overall. But once you finally see artists that you do support, and they are being highlighted by the NFL, even if it's for their selfish reasons, because remember, halftime, halftime artists don't get paid. Let's let's remember that. So given that, you're trying to be supportive of your favorite artists knowing that you really not cool with the NFL. And at the same time, that's messy.

Okay, so I didn't know that they don't get paid.

They don't get paid girl, they don't get paid. And, and when tons. Well, the first one now when I first heard it, I had my conspiracy theory thinking, oh my god, do you mean to tell me you have a whole roster of black artists that you're not paying this time? No, they don't. They don't pay halftime performers.

No one does. So.

Yep. So I was like, What? Are you serious? And so Dr. Dre, from what I've read put in 7 million for the performance to be exactly what he wanted it to be.

Well, I guess that's what you do when you have all that money, right? I don't even get paid. Plus, I'm gonna give you money to make it perfect.

Yes, I want my art to be perfect. How about that? So? Yeah, so in Forbes magazine, it was mentioned quote unquote, we do not pay the artist. We cover expenses and, and production costs, but we don't pay the artists themselves. Like holy Miley. Incredible. From light bright. I'm like, Okay, this is interesting. So yeah, yeah. Not

Well last year's halftime show was Jennifer Lopez and oh, why is the name blanking on the Latin American artist. Oh, let me look it up. Let me look it up. And they were like, unapologetically, I'm expressing kind of their Latin heritage, right. And then a whole I think we talked about this, but there are a whole host of responses. Like, wasn't appropriate. My children were watching, right? Like it was really exactly valuing both women but in particular, Latino women bodies and that, you know, sexuality, and that that's a negative thing. So, so the NFL has gone to two years in a row, it would look like with. Yeah, artists of color of it. So they're obviously trying to make up for lost time.

Oh, well, and and, you know, let's be very clear. You're you're dealing with halftime performance. I mean, a lot of people that follow me know that I'm a big fan of Snoop Dogg. I am. I know he has a questionable background. But that is my guilty pleasure. I love his music. I love how he rebrand himself and his commentary. I mean, he is hilarious to me. And let me also be clear that if you want to go the completely negative route, you have to acknowledge his gang involvement in the past and how I remember being as as a kid, you know, kind of being shunned like, No, you do not need to listen to this music because this is a gang member data. And now featured artists that have time for the Superbowl, one of the biggest sports venues ever cross the globe. But yet, this is a featured person. So, you know, I think it gets interesting how we so quickly forget the past, we so quickly forget, you know, how people evolve over time, or don't evolve over time. And again, it's art. I mean, there were a lot of people that I'm thinking to myself, who all are ridiculous if you have not fully enjoyed this halftime show, because these are all incredible artists that have, you know, of course, award winning, but I'm talking about breaking, breaking all kinds of records that Michael Jackson held, etc. And you know, there's always going to be someone who doesn't care for it because it's art. That's cool. That's fine. But there's been a lot of us who have not been thrilled with many of the Superbowl halftimes and we finally get one we really love Art is in the in the eye of the beholder, I guess. But yeah,

I mean, I definitely have problems with Snoop Dogg, particularly around his sexualization of women and objectification of women and I also have significant problems with Eminem who I find to be a part given that he sang about murdering his wife, but you know, so, um, but I do appreciate the guilty pleasure thing, because, you know, this is what so like, this is a total digression. But Chris knows Chris north, Chris knows from Sex in the City. Mr. Baig?

Yes, yes,

he's been accused of sexual harassment and sexual violence. And I'm just like, fuckin Damn it. No, right. The mister big, as problematic as this character is I'm like, it's Mr. Big, right? And I'm like, God damn it. Why? Why, right. Yeah.

Let's see. Now here's but let's go to another thing that I thought was really interesting about guilty pleasures for others, and then we'll move on, is that there are a lot of people that were fat shaming 50 cent after a Super Bowl show and I thought was very interesting, because the rationale for fat shaming him was, you know, how much of a troll he is in social media and how he's always talking about women's bodies and how he's always degrading, you know, especially women, but women of color, it seems to be primarily. And so I thought that was interesting, Tim, where I because I posted something on my social media, specifically calling out fat shaming. And some of the immediate responses to that were hold up. We may be wrong with the fat shaming, but he is also wrong with years of trolling women and their bodies. And what he perceives is what's wrong with their bodies. So I think there's Guilty Pleasures going in different ways where, you know, these are wonderful human beings that I that obviously, they follow me, I follow them, and they're guilty pleasure is fat shaming. 50 cent, because you know that one of the comments was, I know two wrongs don't make a right. But it feels good to talk about him right now. And I'm like, See, there you go.

Yeah, it is interesting, right? You're like, he's been hurtful and harmful to so many people. And so essentially, they right, like, kick that back at him to say that right. Now, I don't know how it feels for him to probably doesn't care. Maybe he does. But if he does, then maybe that feeling is an educational feeling. But you're right, two wrongs don't make a right. So how do you respond? I feel like we've just like gone off the rails here in terms of our discussion. So

that's cool. I mean, that's what happens when you have so much going on with the Winter Olympics and the, the Super Bowl Halftime Show, which a lot of people have been pegging as a concert where you know, some football might just break out there, right, like no one really. A lot of folks really didn't care as much about the football as they did about the performers. So yes, absolutely. All right, Lisa said Do we have a hell? Yeah, and a hell nah. Before we wrap up?

Oh, gosh, I don't think so much. Yeah, we've talked about so much of like, what what can there's gotta be right because you know, it's the world so um,

it's the world exactly.

I feel like there's always a Hell yeah, and a hell nah. Hell yeah.

Hell no. Well, I will say for my hell yeah, I'll just throw it in there that I hope the gentleman does get to purchase the Denver Broncos. Lisa, maybe you'll get your your season tickets back if you see some changes after but that I know that's like a far stretch. If he does actually buy the Denver Broncos, but I'm pulling for that first black owner, whoever it is. I'm pulling for them to not only own own the actual team, but make some very sweeping changes to be an example that it can be done to the other to the other team. So that's, that's my hell yeah, I'm rooting for him and other future owners, of course.

Okay, okay, then my hell nah, I think we'll be I listened to or read an article in The Atlantic about sexual harassment and HR and Shona and I have often said that HR is the place that diversity, equity and inclusion goes to die, because it is the wrong place to put inclusion. And this article was an investigative journalist article related to sexual harassment in HR, and essentially, the long and short of it was that it's the wrong place. And it's problematic because ultimately, all of the trainings that we go through and all of the awareness is largely just to cover the employers off right so it's not really about supporting survivors. So I guess my broad macro level help is Don't put ni ei or sexual harassment in human resources. Please don't that's not the place to do it if you're really committed to organizational change.

Absolutely. And you definitely would not put it there if you're really committed to obliterating invisible labor by putting more di issues on top of HR professionals, especially HR professionals who happen to be underrepresented minorities. So that's all I have to say about that. I agree. I agree.

Unfazed, a podcast produced by Liv feisty media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon Summit.

Edited and produced by the fabulous Lindsay Glassford.

Email us at info at unfazed podcast.com and find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at outspoken women in try. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shauna thanks for listening. Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.