Conflict can strengthen relationships—if handled well. Nina Barnes shares why avoiding conflict causes more harm, how to tell the truth with kindness (not just niceness!), and why “agreeing to disagree” isn’t always the answer. Learn strategies for turning conflict into deeper connection.

This episode kicks off the newly relaunched Mending Divides Podcast, where Dr. Jer Swigart has unfiltered conversations about conflict—what it is, why it matters, and how to navigate it well—with those who think deeply about it.

Chapters

01:00 Start

01:34 Conflict is inevitable

04:43 Conflict styles

06:36 Conflict as an opportunity

09:15 Suspicion in the Absence of Conflict

10:53 Conflict is modeled for us

15:48 Nina’s Direct Conflict Style

16:50 Niceness vs. Kindness

21:17 Truth-telling with Kindness: What’s the Goal?

26:30 Getting Practical - How to do this

32:54 Agree to Disagree?

36:56 Dehumanization is “the line”

42:53 A Real Life Story

50:56 Invitations

58:32 Closing

Guest bio: Nina Barnes

Nina Barnes is a Spiritual Director, the Founder of Transforming Journey, and a featured faculty member of Global Immersion’s Leadership Cohort. She is a seasoned leader who spends her life accompanying Reconciling Leaders as they grow their cultural awareness, resilience, and prophetic witness.

Nina's Website

Mentioned in this episode:

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and conflict isn't bad.

I say conflict just

is,

It's not bad or good.

How we navigate it, it

Yes.

is whether it's bad or good,

conflict is actually necessary.

I believe it's clarifying.

It helps us to identify what's real.

Welcome to Mending Divides podcast, your source for unfiltered conversations

about conflict and how to deal with it.

I'm your host Jer Swigart, and today's conversation is with Nina Barnes.

She's a spiritual director and conflict consultant who has

spent her life honing her craft.

We talk about how conflict is inevitable and necessary in

relationships, conflict styles, how to tell the truth with kindness,

which is not the same as being nice.

And the problems with agreeing to disagree.

Nina provides strategies for constructive conflict resolution that will help you

deepen relationships through disagreement.

Here's our conversation.

So let's dive right in.

I am just moved by the way that you've spent so much of your time and energy

and life working with leaders in organizations as they deal with conflict.

And I

wonder, Nina, how do you think about conflict generally speaking,

and how are you also thinking about conflict right now?

Yeah.

And in some ways those are, it's the same answer.

It's something that I said.

Kinda off the cuff, probably about 10 years ago when there was

a sharp conflict on the campus,

I, you know, worked for a university.

It was a very sharp conflict on campus.

and I made this statement in chapel, conflict is inevitable.

Division is a choice.

Hmm.

mm

Yeah.

Go.

conflict.

Go.

Say more.

Say more on

yeah, conflict just is.

Yes.

You, we have conflict all the time, but because it's small, we

don't name it as a conflict, right?

We don't even have to have another person around to

have conflict.

We can have conflict with ourselves,

Mm-hmm.

and I joke

and say, I have conflict every day.

I would eat chocolate, dark chocolate all day long.

Yeah.

So the conflict is I shouldn't.

yeah.

But maybe if I have a little right, we can laugh at that.

But, that's a conflict

Mm-hmm.

Between

what I say my stated goals are,

And then the actions that I'm making.

So if we can look at conflict as it just is

Yeah.

you wanna go to a certain restaurant and your partner doesn't wanna go to the same

restaurant,

Mm-hmm.

that's a conflict.

Yeah.

Because when we can solve it, we don't think of it as a conflict.

It's almost like we put conflict in the category of things we can't solve.

And that doesn't serve us well

because then we never see a success.

We never see ourselves moving through a conflict.

Mm-hmm.

So I

work with people, as you said, all

day long around conflict.

And I say it just

Mm-hmm.

and we need

stop trying to avoid it because being human and living in community, living in

a society means we're gonna have conflict.

Mm-hmm.

Division is a choice.

Mm-hmm.

We get to decide when the conflict is so sharp that we're

willing to divide over it.

Mm-hmm.

That's the part that we have choice over conflict,

we, we really don't have a choice

Yeah.

Yeah.

on

whether there's gonna be conflict.

We have a choice on how we

navigate the

conflict.

That's right.

That's right.

No, I'm thinking around conflict, if I were

define

it, would be the collision of actions, ideas

words,

forces that disrupt the status quo.

Yeah, and if that's a definition

of conflict,

then that doesn't, that even would suggest that conflict isn't necessarily bad.

exactly.

Right.

and conflict isn't bad.

I say conflict just

is

it's not bad or good how we navigate

it it Yes.

is whether it's bad or good,

That's

right.

conflict is actually necessary.

I believe it's clarifying

It helps us to identify what's real.

If we never have a conflict, then I see, I would say, what are we doing?

Are we just agreeing?

Are we just... I don't know what that looks like.

And I think it, it just isn't even realistic.

mm-hmm.

So conflict isn't bad.

It conflict surfaces something,

surfaces

an opportunity

yeah.

for clarity, right?

yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's really helpful.

feel like most of us.

Our experience of conflict though, has been so wildly uncomfortable, or maybe

even we've absorbed so much pain , not because of conflict, but because

conflict has been handled so poorly.

Yes.

In our experience that the connotation then is conflict Yeah.

is terrible and is to be avoided or yeah.

maybe differently.

Conflict is to be conquered.

I'm

to win

as

a way of avoiding pain that I've experienced before,

Yes.

You know, And people

tend to have a conflict resolution style.

Right,

Right.

mean, you know, the three most common would be two.

You've already named one.

I'm just gonna avoid it at all

costs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The other is, I'm gonna win.

Yeah.

I'm gonna have an aggressive style, and I'm gonna win.

The other that you named, I'm gonna avoid it.

That's a passive

Mm-hmm.

the style that's more helpful is the assertive style, meaning I show up,

Yeah, yeah,

but even assertive gets mislabeled and thought of as aggressive,

yeah.

Right.

depending culturally.

Right, right.

What's the cultural context and what's the cultural contract within that context?

Mm-hmm.

If

the cultural contract is, we are never going to handle conflict directly, then

the person who does, has violated that contract and now they're the problem.

Yep.

Yep.

That's right.

The one who actually wants to get honest about it

then

becomes the

problem.

Yes.

the problem.

because you have violated that this community's social contract, even

though it may be unnamed, but I know people who talk about it from birth.

This is what they, you just don't

talk about it.

So the person that does is now the problem that everybody can unite around,

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's right.

then we're scapegoating, then we're off

the races.

Yeah.

this idea that conflict is inevitable, I wonder what does it take us to

actually shift in our orientation from conflict as a threat to be avoided to

conflict, as an opportunity to embrace.

And

I'd

love to hear you reflect on that.

And then also if it's an opportunity,

what

happens on the other side of conflict?

You know?

So if we wanna say, if we wanna help people shift in their mindset, why is

it worth them shifting this mindset?

What do they get if they start to see this as an opportunity?

Yeah.

On the other side of it, even as, I think as people start to realize, oh,

this person is operating in good faith,

Mm-hmm.

like

they want to move through the conflict too, then we can

develop a trust and appreciation.

And on the other side of it, there is a depth of relationship that didn't exist

Yeah.

before.

There, there it is.

Even when the relationship was deep, it's gone deeper.

Right.

Because now you know, oh, I can really trust this person.

That's right.

They weren't trying to win.

They were trying to move through the conflict.

We were seeking clarity.

Yes.

The, the

goal wasn't domination

and

destruction, Mm-hmm.

and so now there's a sweetness that's available in that relationship

and a depth and increased trust when we move through a conflict.

I

love that.

I was in a conversation this week with somebody and they were

asking me the question like, what, what hap, like what happens?

Like best case scenario, what happens

if we

develop the tools to navigate conflict well?

yeah.

And I was contrasting it with if I have a shared experience with somebody

that's

meaningful and like intimacy

grows,

you know, if if we go and experience something together, or even if we work

on a project together or whatever it is, it like strengthens the fabric of

friendship and deepens currency of trust.

But nothing in my experience of life so far

deepens

the currency of trust, like navigating through conflict

with

one another for the very reason that

you said,

if we can do this well with one another,

of course we're

gonna make mistakes along the way, but if we can do this well and be generous

with ourselves and one another on the other side of the conflict, we get

to

turn around and go

look what we just did!

We

just made it through that.

If we can make through that, we can make it through anything.

Anything.

So it makes me wonder, is conflict a crucible unique

unto itself in its ability to

foster trust between two

people?

I believe so.

Now I know that's part of my wiring.

I, I don't trust when everything is just going smoothly.

I'm only trusting that just so far because I'm expecting people to differentiate.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

We can't agree on everything,

so are you withholding?

And so I

might say to somebody, you know, and it might start off in a joking way, you know,

we really, we've never had a conflict.

Mm-hmm.

is that?

Have you brought your whole self

Ah, so, so if we're, if we haven't experienced conflict, then perhaps

one of us is holding something back.

Yeah,

because we don't trust,

because we're afraid.

I sometimes I think people are afraid to know what the other person thinks,

Mm-hmm.

because

then they're gonna have to deal with that difference of opinion.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And

And so we're either one or both parties are holding something back,

which means we're just on the surface.

We don't really have a depth of relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah, that's really insightful.

you brought something up a little bit earlier about to conflict,

and I'm fascinated by this.

I might suggest five approaches.

I think there's avoidance, like we've about, I think there's the accommodator.

The accommodator is somebody mm-hmm.

puts a higher priority on relationship than the actual issue.

And it's kind of like default.

Like it doesn't really matter to me.

What matters is happiness.

I think there's a compromiser who like gives a little and takes a little Mm-hmm.

I think there's a controller that's probably the

dominator, one who has to win.

And then the fifth approach would be the empathetic problem this is the

person who values relationship and issue and is willing and able to in.

I think that these approaches, whether it's three or five more,

I think that they're modeled

for us.

It's

a learned

behavior.

Like we all

have a preferred approach

and it's

probably either been modeled for us or we're reacting to

what has been modeled us.

which means that, I

would argue that we have all been really adequately trained to deal with conflict

Absolutely.

Through upbringing and culture in particular.

It's been modeled and we either replicate or react.

Right.

100%. 100%. Right.

So, so which is a mind shift because when you

and I who like conflict is our thing, Yeah.

we are with in conflict, we are guides for their journey conflict.

Yeah.

How many times have you heard someone say, I don't

know how to do I No, you do.

It's

maybe not working.

Yes.

We're socialized

that way.

and in some families of origin, it's not even explicitly stated.

Yeah.

To your point, it's modeled and we pick up on it implicitly.

We watch what happens when somebody dares to name it.

If it's a family that is a withholder,

if it's a family that expects direct communication and they withhold,

we see how that's handled and

we accommodate,

to your point, we may at some point go, that doesn't work.

I'm gonna learn another way.

Or maybe that's how our home life was or is.

And then we're in a workplace, so we are actually

Yeah.

shifting our conflict styles potentially,

Yes.

because that's what the environment requires.

That's right.

that's what

I

wanted to get to this.

And then I want you to get personal.

I want you to identify what's your native and preferred approach

and how is that shaped in you?

but before we go there, like this notion, even the three that you

mentioned or the

five that I mentioned.

I think we're also really quick to assign a hierarchy to, or like a

superiority maybe one over the other.

So the one that I mentioned at the end, the empathetic problem solver,

that seems like a really wise, mature way of navigating conflict

unless you're in a burning building,

Ex.

Yes.

Right.

so the, you need a controller in that moment who's like, I don't

care about anybody's feelings.

We gotta get out the house.

Yes.

You know?

And so my point being, we

have actually adapt based on the circumstances.

Sometimes accommodation is really appropriate, whereas controlling, if

that's your preferred approach, would be

inappropriate in

that setting.

so what does it mean to grow in our fluency

while

we have a native approach?

What does it mean to grow in our fluency of these other approaches?

It's interesting.

Hey.

Well, it is, and even like you, I, I appreciate the expansion

to the five because the other two that you named are included.

I include them in the assertive

Yeah.

because it's not aggressive, it's not passive, it's assertive and

inclusive.

But I appreciate the way you've expanded it and actually named

what those other two are.

Hmm.

and and

you know, here's where communication style and conflict,

Mm.

right?

So

what you named even about the burning building, right?

You need command and you need a commanding

communication style.

The

The

conflict might not happen until after.

When somebody says, I didn't like the way you spoke to me.

So that person who in the moment

communicated Yeah.

really in a domineering way.

Now outside of that danger might go, I hear that.

And they might shift to

The empathetic

problem solver.

Pathetic problem

solver.

Tell me more.

right?

Because now they're outside of the danger.

And so that's how fluid

that really is.

How fluid

you,

as you know, I have two granddaughters when they're about to touch

something that they shouldn't touch, that could harm them.

There's a whole different gramina that

Oh,

yeah.

That's not the accommodator or the compromise.

no, because I need the removal of danger.

yes.

Then we're gonna sit down

talk about how I potentially hurt their feelings

Mm-hmm.

because my voice was elevated to get their attention 'cause they weren't

listening and there was danger.

So,

so what you and I need to create Nina and friends, maybe you all can get behind

this with us, is we

need to create

Duo Lingo for

conflict, where we identify our preferred approach, but then we can actually

grow the skills in the other five,

and then tie

that in with

communication style and

tie that in with Enneagram or

or MBTI like

all of these things.

All of the Uh, what's your preferred approach and how, as you reflect

on your own life and story, how has that approach been honed in you?

Yeah.

Well, and before I get to that, I'm laughing because neither you or I are

put off by each other, interrupting.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And some people might be like,

gosh, they're, are they in conflict?

No.

It's just how we

communicate yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

with

each other.

Totally.

So

I have a very direct style.

yeah.

And that

is the way that I was raised.

So in my family of origin, in my home, it was direct communication.

and that is my preferred style.

However,

I

in an environment

I live in Minnesota.

The preferred style

Ooh.

is not direct.

In fact,

direct means aggressive.

And so I work with people on no, direct means you're clear in your communication.

It doesn't mean aggressive.

Those words are not a direct overlay.

Mm-hmm.

I believe direct communication is a kindness.

I believe

indirect communication is being nice,

And there's a whole distinction between niceness and kindness.

And so, yeah, I am definitely a direct communicator.

A high value of mine is to be kind.

Yeah.

But I also believe that an aspect of kindness is clarity

Clarity.

yeah.

and directness.

and directness.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Directness doesn't mean meanness.

It just means you are gonna know, I'm never gonna keep you off

guard.

I'm

never gonna have you off balance, wondering what I'm thinking.

Mm-hmm.

And I think

a grace and a kindness.

Yeah,

I agree.

I let's go there.

Around this distinction between nice and kind.

I, I feel I feel that the world

that we're

living in, we ain't got time for niceness anymore.

But I think we have to be kind Yes.

and this is something that I've learned from you.

And so, especially as we're navigating really tenuous, I feel like relationships

just in general are really fragile.

Yeah.

and our default is to be nice when what's needed is kind.

Help us understand what you mean by that.

Yeah, so an aspect of niceness is a person being pleasant,

agreeable,

which means you're not actually gonna get to what's true

Yeah.

Okay.

if the

value is to be agreeable and pleasant and friendly.

That's

very surface

level,

Mm-hmm.

and often niceness is a tool of self-protection.

mm Go

go deeper there.

Yeah.

What do you mean?

meaning, I really, I don't wanna have a conflict.

I don't want anybody to be mad at me.

I wanna protect myself.

And

so I'm not gonna say the things that I really am thinking

Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna be nice.

It could be in a setting with somebody who is really domineering and aggressive.

Niceness can have that person take a

step back because niceness can also look like submission.

Mm-hmm.

So it's just not real.

I don't trust niceness

Because it's

only gonna go so far.

And niceness is actually not gonna be helpful if I'm doing

something I shouldn't be doing.

Yeah,

Yeah.

If you're being nice and you watch me doing something that is harmful to myself

or others, but your commitment is to be nice, then you're not gonna be helpful to

me.

Yeah.

You're not gonna be truly caring.

Yeah.

So, kindness cares, kindness seeks the wellbeing of the other person,

even when it may not feel good.

Kindness tells the truth.

Mm-hmm.

Kindness says, I care about you enough that I need to share some things with you.

Mm.

Here's some things I see that are not serving you well.

Mm-hmm.

Kindness cares enough to risk that there's gonna be a conflict.

I mean, what's popping for me is this idea that niceness is about self-preservation.

have never, that's a next level for me.

Mm-hmm.

Niceness, I think in our society has been acquitted with polite but

actually to place it more in the space of self preservation, image

management, reputation protection, Yeah.

things like this is a different way to think about niceness.

Kindness as a gift in that

it's the

way that disruption of the status

quo

becomes tolerable or perhaps kindness

is

the way that we lean truth.

It's the

entrance into it.

It causes me to say, perhaps I can go here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Huh.

and you know, sometimes people say truth telling, you know, and

I'm gonna tell you truth, and we all brace,

Yeah.

because the how matters,

right.

But when it's in the context of kindness, we already have a sense

of that's gonna be helpful and

thoughtful.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Where truth telling can be, you know, bracing

and, you know, hair blown back.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

you said the truth and Wow.

that was not kind.

So let's think about this circumstantially for

a second, because truth

telling with kindness, you've done this in my life.

You have this skill.

I have to imagine

that

your ability to kind, the

moments when you select a.

truth in kindness,

Mm-hmm.

how does that correlate to the currency of trust between and that other person?

I, in other words, like I feel like we live in this

moment in time where it's tell the truth and speak truth, the

power, yeah, okay.

Okay.

But if I'm screaming the truth, with kindness to someone

with whom I have no trust,

Yeah.

I what is the outcome of that?

So

speak to the intersection of kindness and trust and how that opens the

door for constructive conflict.

Because it's what's your goal, right?

If the goal is just to shout the truth

Mm-hmm.

And let

chips fall away, they may and the goal isn't relationship.

Okay?

That'll work.

Mm.

It's not gonna

a relationship,

No.

you know, unless somebody is really ready to absorb what is

potentially abusive communication,

Yeah.

Yeah.

right?

So kindness is gonna say some things first.

Like we, we are not agreeing right now.

Here's why it's important to me that we listen to each other.

'cause I care about you.

Mm,

Well, now there's it.

I've already said the why.

yeah.

Or I've heard you say some things that

it is, it's borderline dehumanizing,

Mm-hmm.

and I've not experienced you that way before.

I've not

heard you say those things before.

What's happening?

Yes.

That, that's the

modeling, thank you for modeling that because.

I

think this is the craft that I've observed you hone

is the ability to be real

time in conversation and identify the moment when a thing was said.

And how it's an inconsistency in what you've experienced in that relationship

previously and how you surface it, like the courage that it takes to surface it.

But you do it with

kindness that then

invites the person to go, ah,

gosh,

wow.

let me think about that.

It invites a deeper process rather than, I'm now wildly offended

'cause you didn't accuse me, you invited me to consider something.

yeah.

and part of it is, I am curious like, what, what is happening?

Hmm.

Like, how did

go from where I've known you all the way over to here, what,

what's happening in your life?

Who are the voices that you're listening to?

Because you sound harsh or you sound

judgemental.

and that may be hard for you to hear, but I care about you, so I'm gonna name

some things on how I'm experiencing you.

And the surprise.

Now, if it isn't a surprise, I'm, I might say, well, I've noticed a shift in you.

And I'm no longer surprised by it because

mm-hmm.

it's become a pattern,

but it still disturbs me.

It

grieves me because that's not who I've always known you to be.

yeah.

And so, Fundamentally, I

care about

you.

I care about you.

Yes.

if I don't care about a person.

'cause we're talking about interpersonal

conflict,

Yeah.

Right.

If I don't care about you, I'm not navigating the

conflict.

Why am I using my energy?

Because I'm not trying to control you.

But if I care about you,

I

really wanna try to disrupt

Mm-hmm.

using your words, disrupt the status quo or What's

become the status

What's

become the

status quo?

And if I can slow down the thinking and,

I never

say what's not true, like I'm not gonna, you know, hype

somebody up if it's not true.

But if I'm saying to somebody, here's how I've known you, you

are considerate, you're caring.

I've seen you do some really compassionate.

go out of

out of your way, acts for people.

Mm-hmm.

And now I hear you say, well, those people, I'm like,

hold up, hold up, hold up,

hold up.

What?

What's

going

on?

Mm-hmm.

And

I'm asking you that.

And I will say to somebody, you don't have to explain it to me.

Mm-hmm.

I'd like to talk about it because it is affecting our

relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

See, this is the other.

see you.

Yeah.

This

is the other piece that admire in the

way that you navigate conflict is like

you

are aware of

what's happening interpersonally and how it

threatens the integrity of our relationship.

Yeah.

And part of the way that I've observed you fight like a peacemaker a relationship

is saying, Hey, there's a thing that's happening, and I don't

know if you use this language necessarily, I don't think you do,

but there's a thing that's happening that is threatening the integrity

of our relationship, or it's

potentially interrupting our friendship.

Yeah.

What I admire about that is you keep centering the importance of the

relationship and the other person.

It's like you're centering that rather than your own feeling of offense.

so how do you do that?

Because I've

also watched you absorb in the midst of

some

hard conversations, I've watched you absorb,

maybe even

metabolize some of the hard things, like you don't speak up and that right away.

I've

watched you.

There's an absorption that you, and then there's a moment where you're

like, okay, now I'm gonna keep us accountable

to relationship.

How do you do that?

walk us through that process?

Yeah.

One, it depends on what the topic is.

Two, while I'm doing that, I, there's a lot of self-talk.

like, Like, say, tell us what

yeah, I'm doing two things at once.

I'm listening to the person and I'm telling myself, don't react.

Listen,

Hmm,

don't react.

Ask more questions,

hmm.

How aware are you,

how aware in those moments that's happening in your mind,

but You

and I also have the ability with our eyes Yeah.

to

communicate

that

we are displeased, that has power to shut someone down or intimidate them.

So okay, so here's some of the mantra you're doing.

What

are you doing with

your face and

your

yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you asked that.

So a tell for me and people that know me well know when I do this,

Okay,

finger on

lip.

Lean in.

I'm literally shutting my

Okay.

So physically you are putting a finger over your lips,

it helps me to remember shut up

okay?

and listen because my, I have a very expressive face and I know sometimes,

you know, it's easier on a virtual call 'cause I can see myself, but other times,

Yeah.

you know, like I can feel my face wanting to go, what?

Or.

Really lean in.

And so the doing this, I will do this, but not in a ugh, but more like I'm thinking

that way I can pause my lizard brain

So for those

of us who are listening in, her first is a finger over her lips.

Her second gesture is like kind of a looking away from the person and looking

off Off, yeah.

just

to

consider, and that's kind of a centering moment for you?

It is.

Okay.

Because

the person is then, looks at me and says, oh, she's thinking,

Yes.

and I am, they don't know.

I'm thinking and working really hard

to

not react.

And my mantra might be ask questions and then respond.

Reaction isn't helpful, don't react.

Mm-hmm.

Don't

react.

Don't react.

And sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I'm not,

you

I don't wanna paint this picture that I'm always successful.

Sometimes I'm not.

And I'll say, you know what, can we pause?

Because

I'm concerned that I'm about to say something it can't be unheard.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Once you hear it, it can't.

So, I need to pause.

You may feel

okay.

I need to pause.

Mm-hmm.

So,

so there, there's another technique, friends for us, as we're thinking

about this, like Nina, your ability

to

be so in tune

with what's happening

inside of yourself that you are actually cautious about hurting in response.

So there are moments when you actually call for a pause mm-hmm.

in the conversation to prevent harm.

exactly.

if you've been harmed.

Yeah.

You're gonna pause to prevent harm to the other.

Yeah, and I will also say when somebody... like, they're getting really big, I

will also call for a pause and say, we need to pause for a second because

you're escalating and you might say something you can never take back.

Ooh.

Ooh.

Even though you may apologize, I won't be able to unhear that

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

even though I forgive you.

Mm-hmm.

It is been said,

so you need to pause for a minute.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, which is such an which is such an invitation then, if this is between

you and me, it's such an invitation

then for

me to myself

Yeah.

to reengage maybe my executive function, because I'm thinking

reptilian brain, and now I win.

You know, Yes.

it's

interesting how in the way that we deal with this, we can root for one

another and bring one another back our own bodies and prioritize the

relationship rather than being, right.

Yes.

that's the

thing.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

I can very quickly, and it's I won't even say second nature,

first nature for me to wanna win.

Yeah, me

too.

I'm a competitive, I wanna win.

Yeah.

I wanna win.

Whether it's an argument or a game, I wanna

win.

Yeah.

So if I center on positions, then my brain is coming up with all

the arguments and the logic to win and convince you of my position.

Mm-hmm.

If I center on the relationship, then the position becomes secondary.

Hmm.

Even though the position might be very important, what I wanna establish first

is, the only reason we're having this conflict is because we're in relationship.

Yeah.

Otherwise, I could easily walk away.

Yeah.

And I don't wanna walk away.

so, I try hard to help the person understand how much

I value the relationship.

I value them as a person.

I try to be very specific.

Here's what I appreciate about you,

Mm-hmm.

and right now, here's where I'm challenged,

Mm.

here's where I'm challenged by you.

Yeah.

And if you, for those of you who are watching this, you're seeing her face, for

those of you who are listening, like the

gentleness

in

Nina's face

mm-hmm.

is the kindness, the

sound of your voice is the kindness.

The pause the talking points

to,

to reprioritize the relationship.

And the importance of the relationship is the kindness.

Right.

And it's amazing how, when we just use these subtle techniques, it continues

to disarm

ourselves and the other person.

Right?

And that feels critical.

Now here's the question.

We're also this moment in time where an easy exit ramp to conflict

is let's agree to disagree.

yeah.

And I don't per personally like to agree to disagree.

Not

that I need to have like full

agreement, but like I just feel like that's too easy of an off ramp.

Yes.

And

I think there's probably more gifts

for us to explore

if we continue lean into this a little bit.

I've heard you a little bit on when it's okay for you to agree to disagree,

but when it's not okay.

Yeah.

can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah.

I,

first of all, I completely agree that this whole agree to disagree is very uns.

It's unsatisfying,

Yeah.

it's dissatisfying.

because.

Nothing changed.

and it's also a power move.

Mm-hmm.

Ooh,

It's a power move for

people Okay.

when they say, well, we're gonna have to agree to disagree,

because basically

you just shut down the

conversation.

That's right.

they have, they press the button,

the

press the button

they press the button.

Yeah.

and so you now shut me off and I might have more that I wanna share.

So I will say to somebody, are we really at the point where

we need to agree to disagree?

Or are we at the point where you're just done with having the conversation?

Hmm.

Because if you're done having the conversation, is that for

today or is that for always?

Like, when are we coming back to this?

Because

it's very incomplete at this point.

I think you just don't want to talk about it.

Or The points that I've shared, you don't wanna take in.

Yeah.

You

really don't wanna take that in.

And so you're just saying, you're basically telling me to shut up.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So then I want you to name that.

Mm-hmm.

I actually want you to just name it.

Instead of us going to this, we're going to agree to disagree.

Just tell me, Nina, I don't wanna talk about this

today or ever.

Okay.

That's very different than we need to agree to disagree.

That's saying you don't want to talk about it.

And now I have to respect that,

Mm-hmm.

but this agree to disagree makes me complicit

Mm Ooh.

weird, passive thing, and I'm not gonna be complicit in that.

Right, 'cause what are you gonna do?

Say,

no,

I don't.

You're actually like

overstepping the boundary that they're

trying to establish somehow by saying, actually no, you don't get to do that.

And, you

know, right.

So yeah, let's really define what's

happening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

That's good.

And again, like the technique, I I wanna keep pulling technique here.

You just, with gentleness and kindness, you just keep on inviting yourself

and the other to live in reality

in the truth.

let's just be honest.

let's be

Yeah.

Let's be honest.

Yeah.

and if you're saying it's too much, oh, I've just got so much, okay,

then that's, that is true and real.

And so then let's come back to this another day.

If it's important.

If it's not important, okay, we can let it go.

But if it's important, we need to come back to it another day.

'cause let's just say the first scenario, the person really does say,

I just don't wanna talk about it.

I really just want you to stop talking.

That person's decision to do that has changed the dynamic of our

relationship.

Mm-hmm.

Our relationship just changed.

Hmm.

Because that person is saying, I only want this much of you.

I really don't want your voice.

I want you to be nice,

Yeah.

is what the other person is saying.

I want you to be nice and I don't wanna talk

about

that, Mm-hmm.

and I'm not gonna eliminate that person from my life.

I just now know what category of friendship we actually have.

Interesting.

Yes, that is really insightful to think about how that moment redefined the

redefined the relationship.

And there are times when you to agree

to disagree.

When does that moment happen?

Yeah, when somebody is dehumanizing somebody else, so the bar for me

is somebody being dehumanized?

Is somebody being stereotyped or categorized?

Is their right to exist, being challenged?

And I know that can sound very dramatic and yet we see it

Mm-hmm.

and topics can come up in conversation.

Where then again, if we're in conversation and somebody makes a

comment and I don't say, wait, we need to go back to that, I'm now complicit

Mm-hmm.

when that person made that statement.

And I don't challenge it or say I disagree, I am complicit.

That person

would have every right to believe, I believe like them.

So

So let's just get to it.

Let's just talk about specifics like immigration,

Mm-hmm.

where if somebody is saying, we need to have stronger borders,

we need an immigration policy.

Absolutely.

If somebody says, those people are animals.

Oh yeah, no.

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

nope.

not

gonna, we're not gonna agree to disagree when your ideology

is dehumanizing of another.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Keep

there is no agree to disagree.

I'm just gonna flat out say that's wrong.

And I

might also pull in, you know, what is this person's belief system?

what is their stated belief

system?

Yeah,

So let's just say this person, they name themselves as a Christian.

Then

now I'm gonna go there.

I'm gonna say, well, theologically, you know, what about the Imago Dei?

The idea from Genesis that every person is created in the image of God.

Yeah.

So we're all image bearers of God.

So how does this view that those people

Yeah.

are animals?

How does that square with they're also image bearers of God.

So you just told me a lot

yeah.

about your theology.

Mm-hmm.

And

again,

in,

see, look what you just did again.

you

invited us to be honest.

So I'm

not gonna spar with you

at, you know,

whether or not

these people are

animals or less human or whatever, because that's nonsense.

I'm

gonna call you to integrity.

Yes.

especially for people who are tied the Christian

tradition.

Right.

Our theology is built on the fact that the divine fingerprint

is etched into all of us.

Yes.

And there is no human hierarchy.

And so I'm gonna invite you to be integrous.

Stand on the actual theology that you narrate.

Right.

Because you said this is your

theology, but I'm actually listening

Yes.

to your actual theology.

The

other is your mental ascent to a theological system,

but your actual theology,

Yeah.

what you believe about God, what you believe about people.

you just told me,

Mm-hmm.

I mean,

you, look at every genocide, every disordered behavior in our society,

it was based on the dehumanization.

That's right.

Of another group of people.

Yep.

stop.

The whole idea of eugenics the idea of race.

Mm-hmm.

It

wasn't like somebody in a vacuum said, let me think about these racial categories.

No, it was to justify enslavement.

yeah,

It was about money,

yeah.

It's greed.

it's greed.

Greed required human hierarchy.

exactly.

In 'cause in order to justify that

Yeah.

treatment of people, you have to say that they're less

than.

That's right.

And so we can go around the world and look at subjugation

Mm-hmm.

of people groups and at the heart of it usually is greed,

Mm-hmm.

but there's dehumanization.

'cause you have to, because I don't know too many people who can just

look somebody in the eye and think they're an equal and dehumanize

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's right.

That, That's right.

that doesn't happen.

If you think they're an equal, then you're gonna disagree

with them on whatever the issue

is,

not

their very humanity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Their right to exist.

That's right.

The

to exist.

And if we center on the U.S., the right to liberty, the right to

freedom, the right to free expression.

But the boundary there is free expression if you're not dehumanizing

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

So that's the line for me

where where

we're never gonna have a conversation

yeah.

And then I'm not

gonna say

wait.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

and that's again, where your convictions and the way that you express and embody

a theology that says that all of us are equally created in the divine image.

what I appreciate so much about the way that do

this is that you

so fundamentally believe in this and you yourself,

that like, when someone's compromising that,

you're

gonna hold them accountable.

this is part of your magic.

And the that you deal with

conflict, I think

once again, is that you hold people accountable to the truth.

You hold them accountable to integrity.

You hold them accountable to the centrality of the relationship,

you know, and you're not to be a little bit disruptive with

kindness to hold us these things.

So,

we've talked about lots of different ideas and you're so competent in the way that

you about technique and your techniques.

Give

us a story.

Let's close this conversation with a story mm-hmm.

of when you've actually had to put all of this into practice.

Yeah.

Which story?

Which story?

Because

I do practice this.

You know, I can think about a recent one that's fairly recent of a person

that's we've deep relationship and long relationship, you know, over 20 years.

And

over a topic that we agreed on.

Suddenly we're having a conversation and a person says, I no longer believe that.

And I was stunned.

Hmm.

Because of the kind of conversation we had before about it.

I was really shocked and the topic had a very strong racialized component.

And racialized specifically with black people, the other

person that I was talking to was white.

and

so I had to pause before I got hijacked and 'cause in, in my body, I'm thinking,

well, what do you think about me?

Yeah, right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I,

I, so I

just said, oh, okay, I need a minute.

I need a minute.

And then I just started a, what happened?

What changed?

How did you go from here

to here?

And she responded by saying, you know, she had taken in some

information in a documentary.

Okay.

and I asked more questions about the documentary and the documentary.

I said, well, I mean, that person has had a very clear perspective, a pretty

one-sided perspective from the beginning.

So I would wonder if that's really well-rounded enough,

Hmm.

or was that person

just trying to prove a point?

You know, are you willing to listen to or watch a different documentary

mm-hmm.

might show a different point of view?

And the person wasn't,

Hmm.

the person wasn't, no, this is what I believe.

And I said, okay.

And I had to, in that moment, go, what does that mean for us

Yeah.

In our friendship.

our friendship?

Again, what does this mean and what is she actually saying?

Hmm.

Am I making this bigger by saying, well, if you don't agree with this situation,

then that means you're not for black people and that means you're not For me.

That wasn't fair.

hmm.

So you wouldn't jump to premature conclusions?

right?

I couldn't allow myself to just, and believe me, my brain went there

Of

course.

I.

and to go, wait a minute.

Back up.

Back up.

That's not what she said.

So ask more

questions Mm.

and it wasn't what she meant.

What I then had to bring into play was some historical context on why I could

perceive that as you're speaking very generally, because here's how this

has played out throughout history.

Mm-hmm.

Which slowed her down some, and she heard that it didn't change

her point of view, but it slowed us down enough to still see each other.

Mm.

And for me to say, Ooh, this is wow, I was not one expecting this.

Two, I'm having to work hard.

Here's the thing that happened in it, is that I could see her fading away.

I could see her moving away, not physically, but conflict

culturally for her is avoidance.

Avoidance.

and I went in after her like, I want to keep talking about

this.

Mm-hmm.

We clearly disagree

Mm-hmm.

and I'm coming in after you.

Because I am not willing to give this relationship up over

this

Mm-hmm.

So give us a, just like a, what does it mean that you came after her?

I just kept asking more questions and naming.

I know this is difficult,

Okay.

Okay.

and I'm not trying to convince you.

You're getting quiet.

I feel like I'm doing all the talking

now.

Mm-hmm.

What does that mean?

Yeah.

Got you.

Yep.

So then

the

conversation ends, and here's where I feel like we stall out in our

relationships and as we deal with conflict in our relationships is

like that conversation, which was a hard conversation, kind of awkward.

She's maybe beginning to lean out.

You're

trying to lean in.

That conversation is over Too often I think we go, Ugh,

I don't know if I'm gonna

keep

fighting for that relationship.

And that's kind of the last meaningful conversation that we ever have.

And

so how did you keep fighting for the relationship?

How did you keep fighting for your oneness after the conversation was over?

Well, even while the conversation was still going on, what I could see in her

eyes she is standing on her position.

I am standing on my position and I could see a resolve, a finality for her.

Not necessarily on the relationship, but a finality of this isn't going any further.

I then said, I care about you.

I love you,

Hmm.

and too many relationships are dividing in these days, where

then people are just polite

and they

call a truce.

Nice.

Ooh,

And a truce is not peace.

go

say more.

We, I don't want a truce.

Yeah.

I, we, that's not our relationship.

and we have meant too much to each other

Yes.

to

a truce, and I think we're both clear on where we stand

on this, and so we don't have

talk

about it again.

I mean, she clarified even though this had a very strong racial dynamic.

She wasn't saying that about me.

She wasn't saying that

about all black people.

Generally.

She wasn't seeing it that way.

I said, I could see it that way, but I'm gonna trust you in what you just said to

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah.

because our past history

Yeah.

doesn't show me any reason that I shouldn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so for me to not trust the journey that we've been

on and stand on this and say,

well, this means this.

I don't have any proof of that.

Mm-hmm.

And

I didn't leave the conversation.

I was not gonna let that conversation end without saying, I love you.

And

yes, we disagreed, and it was a sharp disagreement,

Mm-hmm.

and I don't want this to change our

relationship.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Like you can trust that I'm not angry with you.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm really puzzled.

Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna even say I'm disappointed

Hmm.

and I love

you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna walk

I'm not walking away.

So,

Not walking away.

Nina we need episodes

2, 3,

4, five to continue this conversation.

we started with a, a moment that we find ourselves in where everything

feels pretty overwhelming.

the divides are widening And the ache that many of us feel is in the interpersonal

space, not that we're not alarmed nor need to carry a sense of urgency around

the larger conversation that's happening.

The ache

that so many of us feel is our relationships are crumbling, or falling

apart.

and I think we've had ample space and

time to talk

some of that through.

what's one gentle invitation you would offer to folk.

And I'm gonna even put you on the spot.

as

we do the interior work, as we do the interpersonal work, as

we do the institutional work.

Mm-hmm.

what's a gentle invitation you might offer in each one of those spaces?

Yeah.

For

So the interpersonal, does the relationship hold value?

what I just described?

I'm not doing that in every relationship.

Some relationships are more like an acquaintance.

There's not a value.

I don't have that kind of capacity to do that with everybody

that I might disagree with.

So who are the core relationships?

hmm.

Mm. Identify

your core relationships.

Yeah.

and the people

that you just say, unless that person tells me flat out,

I, I'm done

with you.

I'm gonna fight for that relationship.

Or they do something so egregious that it demonstrates

that their values have changed.

Yeah.

Otherwise, no.

I'm holding, I just, I,

it

grieves me the number of people who are letting relationships go

and then they say they're lonely.

I'm like,

yeah.

And I get it.

They disagreed, but again, conflict just is, it's

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Everything can't be we end the relationship, worthy,

Right?

There are some things, absolutely are some things, but some of the

things that are being put in that category to me are not worthy

of, that.

We're not giving people space to have their own opinions.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

that was the interpersonal.

Yeah.

what's a gentle invitation for us to do some in some interior work?

Yeah.

The interior work is, why did this trip me up?

Hmm.

What did it,

I

resist the word trigger 'cause it's overused.

But what switch got flipped?

Mm-hmm.

where I

was ready to go from zero to

a

hundred.

Hmm.

Was I no longer seeing this person and I saw all of society

Mm-hmm.

that I tried to then make this person the scapegoat for.

Mm-hmm.

that, those are my internal questions.

So

a little bit of self interrogation, like in, in the aftermath, Yes.

pay attention to what tripped me up or what switch got flipped Yeah.

and wonder about it with

And wonder about it.

And wonder also,

what

could I do differently?

Yeah.

Right.

Was I too strong?

Was I too dogmatic?