Episode 13: Bonus Parents, Not Rivals: Embracing Your Ex's New Partner for Your Children's Benefit

Our Guest for Today's Episode:

Pam Dennis

Pamela has worked with amazing leaders in global Fortune 100 firms like GE, Merck, JP Morgan, CNN and General Motors as well as small, closely held companies helping them to lead important transitions in the life cycle of their organizations. She knows the challenges of mobilizing commitment to change -- building acceptance, managing resistance and fear, and dealing with ambiguity. (Not unlike some of the transitions we face in divorce!) In her own life, following a divorce, Pamela built and led an international consulting business that received recognition for its growth and impact: “Mercury 100 Fastest Growing Colorado Companies”; “Boulder Top 25 Women Owned Companies” She sold her company after nearly 20 years. She also holds a PhD from Univ CO.

Pam's Website

Summary

In this conversation, Tania Leichliter and Pamela Dennis explore the complexities of navigating family dynamics during and after divorce. They discuss the importance of communication, the role of a bonus parent, and how to create a family of affection that transcends traditional labels. The conversation emphasizes the need for amicable relationships and offers practical tips for co-parenting effectively, breaking the cycle of animosity, and fostering a supportive environment for children.

Takeaways

• Navigating divorce requires open communication and understanding.
• It's essential to address fears and concerns in family dynamics.
• Creating a family of affection can help ease transitions after divorce.
• Amicable relationships take effort from all parties involved.
• Children often feel caught in the middle of parental conflicts.
• Facilitating conversations can lead to better outcomes for families.
• Divorce doesn't have to mean the end of family connections.
• Breaking the cycle of animosity is crucial for future generations.
• Parents should model healthy relationships for their children.
• Every family can redefine their dynamics post-divorce.

Sound Bites

"What feels right?"

"You have to break the cycle."

"How do we de-stigmatize divorce?"

Chapters

00:00 Navigating Family Dynamics and Amicable Divorce

03:03 The Importance of Communication in Co-Parenting

06:59 Mindset Shifts for Amicable Resolutions

09:55 Rethinking Our Inner Dialogue

14:24 Navigating Stepparent Dynamics

17:28 Creating Amicable Relationships Post-Divorce

21:44 The Importance of Family of Affection

25:58 Breaking the Cycle of Conflict

30:33 Top Tips for Amicable Co-Parenting

Keywords

divorce, co-parenting, family dynamics, communication, blended families, amicable relationships, family of affection, parenting tips, emotional health, relationship advice

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter™, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses, and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach .

On our website you'll find details and additional information on our 5-Step Gameplan multimedia course, our different types of coaching methods, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter, our private Facebook group, our Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45-minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

At Better Than Bitter™, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.

Do you want to Know if We Can Help You? Book A Free 1:1 Breakthrough Call Now! Click Here

Learn more about How To Work With US- Click Here

Watch Our Free Webinars- Click here

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter™ Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter™ Podcast, episode number 13. Today, I am so excited to invite our guest, Pam Dennis. Pam is an author, she is a consultant, and she is somebody who has been an incredibly important person in my life. She is my bonus mom. So what does that even mean? What does a bonus mom mean to me?

Well, she is somebody that came into my life when I was seven. And she played such a huge role in having my parents be able to co-parent in an amicable way. And also not even just co-parent, just be able to function as friends. And she developed an incredibly wonderful relationship with my mother. And together, they believed that they were just part of this child-rearing team. And she never stepped.

on my mother's toes, but my mother did lean on her and she leaned on her because Pam was an incredible facilitator. She was an incredible consultant. She has worked with leaders in global Fortune 100 firms like GE Merck ,JP Morgan, CNN, General Motors, and so many more.

And what she did for them is she helped those companies lead important transitions in the life cycles of their organizations. So she knew how to help people through challenges. She knew how to mobilize commitment to change. and manage resistance and fear. And guess what? That is what we are all feeling when we go through divorce.

So just like divorce, these different transitions that she was helping companies with, she was able to, from the sidelines, as well as an active participant, help my parents through a really difficult transition. And not only that, but she did end up eventually divorcing my father. And there were choices at that point. Did she stay in my life or did she go?

And she worked through that transition as well. She knew that she wanted to continue to be my bonus mom, and she wanted to be my kid's bonus grandma. And so that was the case. And I want to share this experience with all of you. And one other thing that she has done, and in divorce, so many of you might have businesses that you might have owned as a couple.

And so if you are considering selling this business, she has written a book called Exit Signs. the expressway to sell your business with pride and profit. So again, an incredible resource for those of you who are thinking about what to do with the business you might have built with your soon-to-be ex. So without further ado, I want to welcome Pam.

Well, thank you, Tania. I've really been looking forward to this.

So, you I know that this is an unusual scenario because, yes, my parents got divorced and you are my bonus mom, meaning that you were my dad's second wife and really did help raise me. You came into my life when I was really young. And although your marriage to my father, I think it lasted 11 years. You know, the relationship between you and him might've...

ended in terms of a marriage, but it didn't end the relationship between the two of us. And I know that you know, when I was going through my divorce, you were the first person I actually called and, you know, knowing that my mom had passed, you know before my daughter was born. Oh, now I'm going to cry. And so I, you know, I went to you, you were my first point of contact and you have been with me.

ever since and I can't even imagine what my life would be like if you weren't in it. And I just feel like sharing the story of what it might have felt like for you to be the bonus mom, you know, to be the, you know, conduit or facilitator almost as you and I discussed between my dad and my mom because you were so good at facilitating and you really were good at navigating change. So tell

me a little bit more about your experience, your experience as my bonus mom, and having to navigate the waters between my father and my mother with the hope that they could really maintain this amicable divorce for me.

Sure, it is a complicated story if you had to do an org chart of all the players and all the generations of divorce and relationships. It's really complex, but I would say it's shaped my absolute conviction and focus that

Having you as a seven-year-old as a part of my life was not going to be like my experience when my father remarried and well first when he divorced my mother and Then six months later married the quote other woman So I was just there was no way I could let that happen. I mean So I can recall my parent's divorce

I would say my mother cried for 10 years. She was so bereft. And while she never said anything negative about my dad, you knew she was, he had done something terrible. That's the story you make up in your mind. And the other story you make up in your mind, if you're the oldest daughter, is that you need to protect your mother. That somehow you're responsible for that.

mom's feelings. And that's a story you tell yourself. And it goes on and on and on throughout your life. If you finally don't get the insight that says, that's not the story. So I was very determined when I married your father and got to know your mom, Linda, that this simply was not the story I wanted you to have in your head.

But there's a really important piece to that relationship and that is it takes three. It took your dad, it took your mom, as well as the new wife to make that relationship work for you. And that never existed, of course, in my growing up when my parents got divorced. My poor stepmom had to sit out in the car while my dad visited me.

and she was not supposed to be invited to the wedding until I finally put my foot down. She couldn't be included in the pictures. I mean, all these horrible things that I just was convinced I was not gonna let happen to this darling little seven-year-old who would sit on the couch with me when she was maybe nine and say, do you think my mom and dad will get back together?

And you sit there thinking, dear, how do I help her understand what's going on? So I guess that's part of what I think is important to know. It takes three. Your mom wanted your dad to have a relationship with you, regardless if he remarried, but specifically when he remarried. So consenting or encouraging you to come live with us for two semesters during your elementary school life.

was such a gift. I mean, it was a gift of complete love and devotion to what she wanted her daughter to have. So that's the start of it.

What I find is so interesting is that both of my parents had parents who were married and they had families where divorce just wasn't something that was prevalent or they had any knowledge about what a divorce should or shouldn't look like. And I remember being in my hometown and there was only one other friend of mine whose parents got divorced and...

Our moms are totally connected and she had a drawer at my house and I had a drawer at her house because they relied on each other for support because it just wasn't as common. And the fact that you had this experience of divorce in your family, I think brought a lot of light to what could potentially happen.

if my parents didn't come together and co-parent effectively and communicate at a different level. And I want to talk about communication because I talk in my coaching a lot about communication and how important it is. And I have a webinar called Six Communication Techniques to Get What You Want in Divorce. And a lot of it, you know, stems from being vulnerable, being kind.

being firm and assertive, but yet, you know, making sure that your feelings are being heard as well as your requests for collaboration. And so I believe that a lot of what you did for me and my mom, my mom, and my dad, you know, were these communication techniques.

My parents were clueless. They had no idea how to do this. And my dad lived across the country. It wasn't like he had every other weekend and Wednesday dinners. So let's talk about some of the facilitation. Let's talk about how you stepped in and how you really helped my father and guided him to communicate with my mother and then how you helped my mom and me.

you know, communicate with one another, which I thought I would never forget those scenarios when we would get into a fight.

Yeah. I think part of what makes the communication work, we used to say this in business with virtual teams and now people office-ing out of the office or at home office-ing, that if you don't have FaceTime, and I don't mean FaceTime on your phone if you don't have personal FaceTime with a person, it's really hard to have the kind of authentic communication.

So part of what allowed your parents and I to have the kind of open communication, authentic conflict, and so forth was that we spent time together, whether it was coming out for the sixth grade play that you were in, or actually it was a musical and actually staying at your house.

whether it was going to your Vatsmitzva and being there in person, it just dissolves all those assumptions or barriers. So I cannot encourage you enough that getting to know the person who you're the step or bonus mom to is really important. How can you?

First of how could you ever dislike or think negatively about your lovely mother and her spark and her enthusiasm? But she was also very open to getting to know me. So that allows us to have very frank conversations. Your dad is probably the world's greatest conflict-avoider. So in order for us to have...

conversations, three-way conversations with your mom, I would have to sometimes have a long conversation with your dad to help him get to the heart of what was it that was the discussion, whether it was whether to let you date at 16 or whether it was to let you know some of the basic teenager kinds of issues or understanding how fearful you were to,

traveled by yourself from all the way from Connecticut to Boulder and having him understand that he needed to really hear you and understand that you were very afraid that you wouldn't be there at the gate. So and having your mom reinforce that from the Connecticut side. So a lot of it was

just having very frank conversations, but it starts with the story you have in your head. My mom's story was that my dad's second wife, Nancy, stole him from her. And so she was to be hated and she was not to be discussed and her name was never to be mentioned in the house.

And so when you start with that negative animosity, it's really hard to have kind and collaborative discussions. And it goes on forever. When I was 60, I finally found my dad's second wife, Nancy. She had been lost to communication forever. And I didn't dare tell my mother that I was going to go visit her.

for fear of that same little story. Well, I don't want my mom to feel hurt as if I can somehow make her feel some way. So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but.

You are, you

are. And I talk so much in coaching around the fact that it's not our life circumstances that create our feelings. It is the thoughts, the stories, the belief system about the life circumstance that creates a feeling. And that feeling that you have is what is driving your actions, reactions, behaviors, or even inaction. Some people just get paralyzed completely, right? So however they're feeling,

is giving them the inaction, what they're not doing. And the results that you get in your life are directly correlated to how you act, react and behave, right? Which stems from your belief system, your thoughts, and the stories you tell yourself. So what I hear you saying is that your mother could not let that story go. And so she was so resentful and so angry or maybe just overall hurt.

And it didn't allow for her to act, react and behave in a way that was going to give her that forgiveness of unburdening herself from that resentment in her life. So who's the one who suffered? Your mother. Your mother suffered her entire life because she couldn't get rid of that story. And so I love the fact that you bring this up because I talk about this all the time. And when I

people, especially when there's been infidelity or, you know, somebody leaves somebody for somebody else. It's what you're making that mean, right? It's what are you making that act mean? Your mom was making it mean that, you know, this woman stole your father, which makes her less than. I'm not good enough. I wasn't good enough. There was somebody else out there that was better. I'm going to

blow the top off of my parent's divorce. my mother also had an affair, and my dad was able to change that dialogue. He didn't hold onto that resentment. I mean, and who knows if he ever took any level of ownership or responsibility for how he was showing up in that relationship for there to be healing on his end, you know, as to, as to the why, but I talk about the fact that in divorce,

the three simple mindset shifts in order to have an amicable resolution is one, allow for yourself to grieve. Two, throw away the why. Why you're getting divorced, if you want an amicable resolution, you have to throw it away. Because if you hold onto it forever, you're going to end up like your mother. And then the third thing is manifesting your desired outcome. Thinking about what do you want in your life? Think about it, bird's eye view or drone view, as I say these days.

If you can decide that you want a brighter future and you can determine what you want yourself to feel, not just how much money you want to have and the house you want to live in, but like, what do you want to wake up and feel every day? How do you want to surround yourself with the right support system? Like that is the crux of the secret to a more amicable resolution.

So let's talk a little bit about the facilitation between my mom. So I was a teenager. Obviously, you were with me from, well, my mom was still alive. And the listeners don't know, but my mother got sick when I was 15 and ended up with brain cancer.

Thank

And so she was struggling with her own health and Pam was there, and still my bonus mom during that time period. my mom had struggles just, being strong, being a mom, and being, somebody who can set boundaries. And I was definitely a little bit of a wild child and, you know, didn't like to listen too much. And Pam...

would step in. So talk a little bit about how you, I would say, did that in a constructive way without stepping on the other people's toes. Because being a bonus mom or stepmom is challenging, right? Or stepdad, should I say. How can you be part of the setting of boundaries and setting structure without taking on the role of a parent?

Yeah, I think it's not a skill most of us are taught. And I think partly because I had the kind of business background I had where I was working with executive teams and dealing with conflict and so on. I at least could have some of the basic skills. But the first thing is to start with the question, what's going on? How are you feeling?

You don't say, well, what's the story behind this? know, what's got you stuck? What is your hope for? I would say to your mom when she was dealing with should I let Tania a lot of times it was her feeling insecure about what's the right thing to do. And she would be talking to your friend's mom's.

and trying to get their perspective and then trying to juggle all those thoughts. And so then I would end up on the phone with her and she'd say, well, I talked to these three neighbors or I talked to four of Tania's dance moms. And so there was that sort of not feeling confident that she was going to make the right decision. So part of what I would do is simply ask her, what, what feels right? And what is it that you're really wrestling with? So I started a lot of those conversations with questions.

so that I could hear how she was thinking and how she was feeling. And then I would ask her things like, well, what are you afraid is gonna happen? Now that's different than when she calls because you flooded the house because you had a party that shouldn't have been going on. That's a whole different conversation. But for those other things, should I let her go on this trip with her dance group? Should I go, you know, 'cause she loved to go on those trips with you. And...

So I would always start with, well, what's got you stuck or what are you worried about? If I could hear that underlying question going on for her, then it wasn't about problem-solving that actual, you know, should she go on the trip question. It was more of helping her get in touch with what was she worried about. And then when she could sort of speak to that.

we can talk about, well, if she went on this trip or if you did this, what are some ways that could ease your worry? And sometimes I would just say, hey, you know what? That's just because she's 15. Even though I didn't have other kids of my own who went through adolescence, I remembered being 15. So yeah, I think part of it is just starting with the question.

think that also, you know, I think that people have this desire for this amicable resolution. But again, you said it takes three, right? And so sometimes being the bonus mom, you might have the desire to have that relationship with your new partner's ex-wife or new partner's ex-husband, but yet there's not that reciprocation. So

How do you or what would you suggest if you come up with some of these barriers? Are there different communication techniques? Are there different things that you could say that might allow for that other individual to maybe open, be a little bit more open-minded to the relationship?

It sets the hardest part. mean, my husband now had a very, he just had a terrible divorce and it has affected his kids ever since. But one of the things he would say is, well, Nancy just hates me. And we would be going to the grandkids soccer games and she would be in the stadium or on the bleachers.

and we would be on the bleachers. And I simply refused in my own head to go with, she hates Jim. I said instead to myself, she probably has reason to be angry with him. She hasn't let go of that. I don't have to buy into the way she's thinking and the way she's feeling. So I am going to interact with her as a human to human, a woman to woman. Both of us are divorced.

Both of us love these grandkids, laugh when she laughs, I genuinely, hug the kids, always letting her hug them first and I hugged them second. So defer to her until she finally, the ice finally broke. And I can remember at one point, I have to make sure I don't cry.

Yeah.

We were at a soccer game or something and her husband at the time was dying of cancer. And Jim went up to her and put his arm around her and she hugged him back. And it was like, my God, I never would have imagined seeing that. So part of my role was to act as if she did not hate him.

She's hurting, she's angry, or whatever. And my role is to be as genuine a person as I can be with her and help chip away that unbelievable ice that was around her so that then Jim would have a place back in that relationship. But it was all because of the grandkids, you know because that was our mutual love. You know, you can dislike the person, but you sure love those grandkids.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know I had a different guest on Molly Faye and she had an incredibly amicable divorce, and her ex was always asked about like, I can't believe that, you know, how well you guys get along. Like, how do you do it? He's like, I love my children more than I hate Molly. And I mean, and he doesn't really hate her, but then, you know, she was telling the story, but like he put those children for.

Yeah.

And as much as they might have decided that their marriage wasn't going to work and they had differences they, just put that aside for the sake of the children and that it was super child-centric. And that is what we do at Better Than Bitter for those who have children. We get people, remind people that it is not your children's fault that you are not.

you know, going to stay together. So what are you going to do to be the adult in the room, to put your emotions in check so you can show up for your kids in a productive way? You know, people who can't do that risk creating very long-lasting trauma on their children. You know, that high conflict.

Mm.

where children feel like they're stuck in the middle, where they hear disparaging information from each parent, about each parent from the other. that is what creates a lot of trauma. And I've had two guests now talk about the fact that if you disparage, you don't recognize that the fact that what's going through the kid's head is like, hey, I'm 50 % mom and I'm 50 % dad. If I hear that mom is so horrible by dad,

I'm 50 % bad and it might not be coming as consciously, but subconsciously the kids feel that. And again, I've heard this from a couple of guests. So obviously there's been some research around this that has been published in the divorce world about the dangers of disparaging. So talk a little bit more to us about,

as you and my father ended up separating and the thought of how are you going to maintain the relationship with me and how, you know, now we have a totally different dynamic because you have been in a very, very long time relationship with Jim for 30 something years. My dad cycled through.

Yeah.

another wife or two, and we still all are a big happy family. And so let's talk about how that has worked from your perspective.

Yeah, the life continues to be complex over all these many years. And, you know, part of it is when Andre and I separated, got divorced. We were sad. Both of us were sad. We weren't mad. We weren't angry. We were sad. We were disappointed. We went through couples therapy to figure out how to make sure we ended up on the other side of this marriage in a way that was constructive and still

loving because we still really, it wasn't that we were out of love with each other, we just grew apart. But you were so important and you were 17 at the time when we, 17 or 18, when we finally said, okay, we are going to get divorced. And I tell the story all the time to my friends who, when we were married and you said, well, what shall I call you?

And I said, well, and we both agreed we didn't want to be called me stepmom because of the evil stepmom and all the stories and fairy tales. So you were just going to call me your other mom. And that's how you would introduce me. She's my other mom. And then when Andre and I got divorced, it was like, no, now what do we call me? And you said, well, I don't want to call you my dad's ex-wife.

So I think I'm just gonna call you my stepmom. So we had to go back to this. There was just no right name, no right term for it. But we knew all along that if you were too important and knowing eventually you were gonna get married and you had babies and all, you can't just leave my life. You've been a part of my life for 10, 11, 12 years.

So that just wasn't gonna happen. And Andre wasn't gonna let that happen either. And your mom was still alive at the time and she was still my friend despite her very difficult health issues. She was still my friend. So we just always believe that there's a family of affection. It's not legal

It's not drawing the papers that say, you're my bonus mom, stepmom, or whatever. It's a family of affection. And if you start there, then how can it be different? How could it not be still loving and engaged celebrating each other's victories and being there for the challenges? It's just, it starts with what do you want to believe in your heart?

And then you make your brain come in line with it. It's like I've choices. If I start with a positive assumption and a positive vision of what I want to be after this divorce, whichever one it is, then you have choices. But if you stuck with, I can't stand this person, he betrayed me or whatever, your choices all of a sudden get diminished.

so, so I think that's part of it. And I think your dad, of course, he wanted, he doesn't like conflict. So he was not about to have a conflictual kind of relationship with me with regard to you. and that's true with his, his most wonderful wife now, Beth. we just started off with the assumption that you are an important part of Andre's life.

and have been an important part of my life and you will be an important part of her life. And so that's the glue that holds us together and makes us affectionate with each other. I don't know if that makes sense.

my God, I love the term family of affection. And I'm going to use that because it's hard to describe the scenario of, not just you, but my dad's dynamic with my mother's family. And now he brings his new wife to my mother's family's reunions. And, know, everybody is just one big family of affection. And

I think that one of the strengths of my extended family is they say that even if you divorce the individual, you don't divorce the family. And, my ex has a great relationship with all of the people in my extended family. And I was very determined that they would accept him and love him as much as they always did. And just because we...

you know, we're not together didn't mean they didn't get to love him as much as they did before. And I think that's really, really important. And it doesn't happen in every family. I know that with his side of the family, he had to be very clear to them that he's like, listen, you know, they like, oh, we've got your back son, you know, thinking like, oh, you told us you're getting divorced, so it must be horrible. And he was like, no, no, no.

like Tania's wonderful, she is still the mother of our children. We intend to have an amicable relationship and I want you to continue to accept her just as the daughter-in-law that you have had in the past. And so I think the two of us have done a very good job of making sure that we communicate. And I did a piece on CBS about this.

You need to be the one who communicates if you're getting divorced on how you want the rest of the family to act and react. You have to set that stage. Don't allow for them to make assumptions and make their own decisions. It's very important that you communicate to them what you want from them as it relates to the relationship moving forward. Because it does, there's a lot of fear that happens.

in divorce especially if you had a good relationship with your ex's family, there's fear that you're gonna lose that family. And so it's the job of the person whose family it is to set the stage for what it could be moving forward. But it comes back down to what you had said. What is the story you're telling yourself about the circumstance and how can you re-script?

One of the best parties I think I ever went to was a divorce party. And it was like awake, except that not awake of mourning, but awake of celebration that said, know, Jerry and I have been together for 15 years. We are, we have decided we are no longer going to stay married. And the 50 of you friends cannot take sides and we're going to

toast to our friendship and it may continue and then everybody had a great, you know, it was a divorce party. They even called it a divorce party. It is because you, if you don't choose to let people know, make the conscious choice to say, I'm gonna preserve a set of relationships, not just with my husband or soon-to-be ex and with our children, but with that whole context.

of friends and family and extended family, you have to make it a deliberate attempt to say, I'm gonna manage that future. Manage is probably the wrong word, but I'm gonna set the tone for that future by making certain things happen. it has to do with phone calls and get-togethers for lunch and divorce parties or whatever, but it has to be in your head.

Thank

that you say, am gonna really foster a relationship that continues beyond this legal separation of two people. It really is a deliberate choice and it's hard if your model has been not an amicable divorce, one that's full of animosity and hurt and rage.

And then it goes to the next generation and those kids have divorces that are angry and full of animosity. And you have to decide, I'm going to break that cycle. And it's interesting, we have grandkids whose parents got divorced and their whole life heard nothing but bad things about their dad. And then she remarried and has a very nice loving husband.

Mm-hmm.

But he insisted that they call him dad. He wouldn't answer their questions or speak to them if they didn't first say dad. And that's not how you build the kind of relationship you want. So to this day, they don't know what to call their real dad. They now call him kind of his first name. And you have to break the cycle. You have to say, I'm not going to let that cycle continue.

because it'll perpetuate generation after generation. Because it's only thing people know.

I know, and there's so much, fear of children who come from divorced parents. I know our children have fear that they're doomed, for divorce. And because I came from divorced parents, my ex comes from divorced parents. We are now divorced. And so I try to tell them that, listen,

I can't control what happens in your future. 50 % of people who get married get divorced. It is true. That is the fact. And I hope that for you all that you meet the right person and you can work through your differences if they do arise. But at the end of the day, if divorce is something that does come into your life, all I can do and all your father and I can do is help you model what an amicable divorce looks like.

and that it can just be a family re-envisioned and, you know, trying to change that divorce dialogue. And that's the mission of Better Than Bitter is, how do we de-stigmatize divorce? How do we change the divorce dialogue?

People dying at 65 back in the day, they weren't living as long and they didn't have, they weren't spending as many years with the same person and life was a lot less kind of complicated back then as well. So again, it's okay and de-stigmatizing it. And if you decide you're gonna go separate ways, you go separate ways, but there are ways to do it and there's ways not to do it. So you're not hurting everybody in the process or who is in that path.

So I always end with three kinds of tips and I got there were so many, so many great ones today and I'm gonna give me, the first one and I'd love for you to think about the second one and then I'll come into the third and I'll give you a little time as I talk about the first. So the first top tip that I'm gonna pull from today.

is this family of affection. And then as you are considering bringing somebody else into the lives of your children and thinking about the fact that there is potentially a bonus mom or a bonus dad, maybe even bonus kids, meaning you could be introducing your children

to another set of children, right? So there could be a total merging of families. But what's important is that it doesn't matter what the relationship is, whether it is a stepmother, a stepfather, a stepbrother, a sister, a half-brother and sister, or somebody else gets divorced. Like you are just creating a family of affection and there's no name. So even

if Pam was married to my dad and then she wasn't, but she never left my family of affection. And that to me is the meaning of being able to do this amicably and the power, because you know what? The more people who love your children or the more people who love your grandchildren, the better, the better. My kids, our kids, they are so grateful they have all these grandparents.

you

And that, yeah, it's not as typical as it should be, but they feel lucky. And we feel lucky that they feel lucky. So that is my first tip, family of affection. Pam, what could you say for tip number two?

I think tip number two is we always have choices. We have choices about how we want to have a, how we want a relationship to be with this child coming into our family or with the mother of the child coming into this new family or of the

the name we're gonna call each other, you know, while this person is in your family or, and afterward, in our case, the second divorce for you. You have choices. It often doesn't feel like it, but that's usually because we haven't gotten in touch with what our biggest fear is or, what are we feeling sad about. And when we can...

come to grips with that, it opens up all kinds of choices for us. So the hard work is first with yourself and then, and I say this to executives, know, who are micromanaging. You have a choice, but you've ruled out four of them because why? Because you're afraid of not being a success or.

You're afraid that people won't think you're in charge. So let's add the choices that are there for us by getting deeply in touch with what's our story, what's our fear. So my tip is...

Figure out how you can have more choices than maybe what you've been giving yourself in the past.

And I think for tip number three, I'm going to go back to the story you talked about and how you facilitated conversations between me and my mom. And I think that you said that it was really about not giving your opinion. You started with a question and you said, what, are we concerned about here?

What are we hoping to accomplish here? And you didn't pass judgment and you didn't come in with an idea or an opinion or a way of doing things. You allowed for the conversation to be between me and my mom.

And I think that's really important when you are dating somebody or who has children, your role as a bonus parent or your role as a stepmother or a stepfather is to make sure that you are allowing the parents to make the decisions on behalf of the children. And if you have to just be the facilitator in that.

that that's okay. Because passing judgment on other people's parenting can only cause conflict in a way that just doesn't feel good, right? Because everyone's gonna parent differently.

So if you are in a new relationship, then just go and ask the questions, what they're struggling with, what the issues are, what the outcomes are that they're looking for. And really, I always work backward from outcomes, because, if you really know your outcome, then you know that you know ways by which you need to act, react and behave.

And so those are my three top tips. Pam, I can't thank you enough. I really am so happy that you're here and we're willing to share your story and our, you know, amazingly affectionate family. I feel very grateful.

and I as well. And I'm just sending you a big smooch.

All right. Thank you again for joining us at the Better Than Bitter podcast. And I look forward to hearing you all or listening. I look forward to everybody. And then following episode, episode number 13. Thanks again.

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses,

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

our private Facebook group, Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45-minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

At Better Than Bitter™, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.