Artwork for podcast The Pricing Lady
Negotiating with Confidence: Pricing, Power & Leadership with Carrie Gallant
Episode 13 • 25th August 2025 • The Pricing Lady • Janene Liston
00:00:00 00:41:37

Share Episode

Transcripts

Speaker:

In this episode of Live With The

Pricing Lady, I sit down with

2

:

Carrie Gallant, CEO, and founder of

the Gallant Leadership Institute.

3

:

We talk about Carrie's Pricing

journey and she shares with us how

4

:

she helps other people negotiate

for themselves and others.

5

:

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the episode.

6

:

Janene: Welcome to Live

with The Pricing Lady.

7

:

I'm Janene Liston, your hostess, where

we turn Pricing confusion into clarity

8

:

so you can grow your business with more

confidence Today I'm very excited to have

9

:

a special guest with us, so please help me

welcome Carrie Gallant, CEO, and founder

10

:

of the Gallant Leadership Institute.

11

:

Hello, Carrie.

12

:

Carrie: Hi, Janene, so great

to be here with you today.

13

:

Janene: I'm excited to dig

into this conversation now.

14

:

One of the reasons that I invited

Carrie here to join us today is because

15

:

we're gonna be talking not only about

her Pricing journey, but about the

16

:

topic of negotiation, and I know that

you want to know more about that.

17

:

Before we get into that, let's

get to know Carrie a bit better.

18

:

Carrie, where are you calling from today?

19

:

Carrie: I'm calling in from

Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada.

20

:

Janene: Ah, bright and

early in the morning.

21

:

Carrie, how would you

describe your superpower?

22

:

Hmm.

23

:

Carrie: It's a great question and I love

that you asked this 'cause I think it's

24

:

so important to really get to know our own

superpowers and many of us don't see them.

25

:

And actually that's one of my superpowers

is I can help others see their superpower.

26

:

There's a lot of people, a lot of women

clients I work with who don't actually

27

:

see or know what they're great at

and think, oh, everyone can do that.

28

:

But when we call it out and we

can actually see that others

29

:

see our superpowers, then we

can actually lean into them.

30

:

That is definitely one of my superpowers.

31

:

And, and to do that, I rely on

a few different things, one of

32

:

which is my intuition about that.

33

:

Mm-hmm.

34

:

Because the idea comes to me clearly.

35

:

But also it's backed by, by

human design, which is actually

36

:

in my human design blueprint.

37

:

And maybe we'll dive into

that a little bit later.

38

:

But it's a tool that helps to unearth

a lot of those things and show us what

39

:

what we have as our human potential.

40

:

Janene: Excellent.

41

:

What is one interesting thing that

most people don't know about you that

42

:

you'd like to share with us today?

43

:

Carrie: Oh, that's so fun.

44

:

You know, I was thinking about this

question and I, I, there's a few different

45

:

things and I thought, you know what?

46

:

I studied theater arts in high school.

47

:

I realized I, I really dove

into it and was in a few plays.

48

:

I was in Ana Green Gables twice.

49

:

I wasn't Dan despite the red hair.

50

:

But it was a lot of fun and I really.

51

:

Thought my best friend at the time, and

I were really keen to get into acting

52

:

and, and really do a lot of that stuff.

53

:

And I thought, oh, this is gonna be part

of my future, is I wanna be a performer.

54

:

And I still do perform in a way,

in the sense that I'm, I'm now

55

:

more of a speaker than I am.

56

:

On stage and those kinds of things.

57

:

But my real thing is switching it

into realizing that what I love

58

:

doing most is having conversation.

59

:

Mm-hmm.

60

:

And

61

:

really studying conversation and how that

really allows our work to enhance, to

62

:

improve in our relationships with others.

63

:

And so now I help, I primarily work

with a lot of women in helping them

64

:

find their voice in conversation.

65

:

Janene: Mm-hmm.

66

:

Okay.

67

:

Well that leads into my next question.

68

:

What inspired you to start your business?

69

:

Carrie: Hmm.

70

:

Wow.

71

:

Okay.

72

:

Let's see.

73

:

What inspired me to start my business?

74

:

Well, a few different things.

75

:

I was in a different situation

at that time when I was working.

76

:

And there were some economic

changes happening and I looked

77

:

around and I, at that time I

actually was also studying coaching.

78

:

So I, I was a lawyer

for a number of years.

79

:

And while I was a lawyer,

I was also a mediator.

80

:

So I was helping parties to negotiate

to come together, unions and employers,

81

:

unions and employees and, and somebody, a

friend of mine turned me on to coaching.

82

:

I was actually considering doing my

PhD in psychology, which is my first

83

:

degree, and she said, you know what?

84

:

You might be, she was doing hers

at the time, and she said, you

85

:

might be really interested in this

thing called professional coaching.

86

:

And when I realized, oh, so coaching with.

87

:

One person is kind of like what I do

as a mediator, but helping that person.

88

:

You know connect with their conflict

styles and coach them through

89

:

conflict and do it one-on-one.

90

:

And so that's really kind of

what started it was looking at,

91

:

oh, now I'm in this situation.

92

:

I might have to think about what's

gonna happen with the work that I

93

:

was doing and might I get laid off?

94

:

And so I started to think

about developing my own.

95

:

Practice, if you will.

96

:

Not as a lawyer, but, but

as a coach and a mediator.

97

:

And so that's really what started

it my going out on my own As

98

:

you as, as it were at the time.

99

:

Right.

100

:

And then ultimately just really

moving that forward and, and bringing

101

:

it out more into what is now the

Gallant Leader Institute, which is

102

:

really a home and a place for women.

103

:

Business owners, women executives and

leaders to really come together in that

104

:

gallant leader model to really tap into

that authentic leadership and negotiation.

105

:

Mm-hmm.

106

:

It's training, coaching, and everything

that I can bring and help and bring

107

:

the community together to, to rise

into their full potential as leaders.

108

:

Janene: Okay, so you've mentioned

law, you mentioned psychology.

109

:

Can you just give us the short bio?

110

:

Connect the dots for me.

111

:

Carrie: Sure.

112

:

Well I did my first degree in psychology.

113

:

This was after theater

arts right in high school.

114

:

And I was really, I actually started

out as an English major, as partly

115

:

because of theater and my interest.

116

:

And then I got inspired by a really

bad grade that I got in first year

117

:

psychology that really ticked me off.

118

:

And it fueled the fire under

my butt to mm-hmm ace the

119

:

rest of my exams, which I did.

120

:

Along the way I fell in

love with this study.

121

:

I had in my head I might do law school.

122

:

I did that.

123

:

Taking the two pieces almost

and bringing them together.

124

:

And really what I talk about Janene

is, is I think the thread for me

125

:

between the two and seeing how my.

126

:

Professional life, even my personal

life has evolved since then, mm-hmm,

127

:

is this thread of human behavior.

128

:

Mm-hmm.

129

:

The thread of human behavior actually

started in my love of literature

130

:

and studying classic literature

modern literature, theater, arts,

131

:

and then psychology, and law.

132

:

Is all about human behavior.

133

:

It's more about trying to control

and manage human behavior and putting

134

:

boundaries around and guide rails around.

135

:

Now that's a lot of what

I help my clients do.

136

:

Bringing together the strategy,

the logic side of things,

137

:

along with more inner world.

138

:

Mm-hmm.

139

:

And, and human behavior that

the study of behavioral science.

140

:

Janene: The path that's taking you on.

141

:

One of the things we talked about is that

you supported many women in negotiating

142

:

for leadership roles and pay equity.

143

:

I'd like you to take us back

on your own journey because you

144

:

mentioned to me that you used to

work for the Pay Equity Commission.

145

:

And I'm curious to learn more about

that and how that shaped what you,

146

:

what you do now with your clients.

147

:

Carrie: Well, thank you.

148

:

Great question again.

149

:

I became a feminist along my early journey

in what I became aware of in literature

150

:

as well as in law about how women's lives

have unfolded and, and been constrained.

151

:

And, and now opening up.

152

:

And yet there's still so many

constraints that we, that we face.

153

:

And so, when I got hired for my first

job as, as a lawyer, it wasn't actually

154

:

as a lawyer, it was as a mediator.

155

:

Mm-hmm.

156

:

And I was the only lawyer amongst the

mediators at, at that time in pay equity.

157

:

So this was back in Ontario where

I'm from originally in Toronto.

158

:

And I was just like, oh yeah, this is it.

159

:

This is the dream job.

160

:

I get to help close the wage gap.

161

:

Oh my god.

162

:

I was so excited.

163

:

Right.

164

:

And and so I.

165

:

One of my experiences though.

166

:

So I got hired and, you know, I went

through the hiring process and the

167

:

usual type of conversation that you go,

do you get when you answer the phone.

168

:

'cause we, I was literally answering

the phone at that point in time.

169

:

We didn't have the internet or Zoom

and the human resources officer for

170

:

our parent Ministry of Labor offered

me the job and gave me the salary.

171

:

And said, and that's the best we can do.

172

:

So what did I do?

173

:

Janene: Accepted it.

174

:

Carrie: I said, yeah.

175

:

Automatically.

176

:

I said, yes.

177

:

Like all good girls do, right?

178

:

I, I was, well, I, she said it

was the best she could do, right?

179

:

So why wouldn't I believe that?

180

:

Mm-hmm.

181

:

And and also because I was so excited.

182

:

I was so excited and I thought,

wow, they want me, and I'm there.

183

:

And I got hired alongside the same time

as three other, two other women and a man.

184

:

And about 18 months into our job,

after we were traveling around the

185

:

province, helping unions and employers

to negotiate and employees to process

186

:

their complaints and deal with that.

187

:

And one day we on, we, we found out

over coffee we overheard that he was

188

:

actually making a lot more than us.

189

:

Mm-hmm.

190

:

Spoiler.

191

:

Carrie: Guess where we work?

192

:

Do remember what the story and the

Pay Equity Commission Commission

193

:

we're like, what this has happened.

194

:

Right.

195

:

And so I tell this story a lot

because, not because I'm slamming

196

:

the pay equity Commission or pay

equity because I believe in it.

197

:

I believe in legislation and its role.

198

:

And I also believe in

what the commission does.

199

:

It's had great success.

200

:

Mm-hmm.

201

:

Carrie: But because if

it can happen there.

202

:

It can happen anywhere.

203

:

Yeah.

204

:

Right.

205

:

Because there's this process

that we go through when we're

206

:

in our job negotiations that is

207

:

mm-hmm.

208

:

Carrie: Somewhat standard.

209

:

Mm-hmm.

210

:

Across the board.

211

:

And so it's knowing what to expect.

212

:

And so that was a really big learning

moment for me and for the other two women

213

:

because we, all three of us realized

that none of us had negotiated, none of

214

:

us had pushed back against the, that's

the best we can do, which we all heard.

215

:

Mm-hmm.

216

:

Carrie: But he did.

217

:

And so why?

218

:

Yeah.

219

:

Why did he and not we do that.

220

:

And so that's part of the

journey that I ended up going on.

221

:

Mm-hmm.

222

:

I will pause and say there is a second

part to this story, which is that we

223

:

were able to get it all back for the,

for the three of us retro retroactively.

224

:

Janene: Oh, that's amazing.

225

:

Well that's, I mean, it's, it's, it's

good because you know, they're talking

226

:

the, are walking the talk, let's say.

227

:

Carrie: Yeah.

228

:

And that's its own story

229

:

Janene: that I'd had.

230

:

I didn't work for the pay equity

commissioned, but my first job outta

231

:

university about after I left the company,

I found out that the, the young per the

232

:

young guy, they hired like six months

after me into the same type of job.

233

:

He also came straight outta university.

234

:

He also, he was paid more and a couple

of people in the company challenged

235

:

the owner of the company on it, and

the owner of the company said, I

236

:

would never pay a woman the same.

237

:

To do the same job.

238

:

And thankfully, I mean, I was out of

the company by then, but it, you know,

239

:

that, that sort of thing sticks with you.

240

:

Carrie: Yes, it does.

241

:

Yeah.

242

:

And the unfortunate

thing Janene is mm-hmm.

243

:

It still happens today.

244

:

Yeah.

245

:

It still happens today.

246

:

Yeah.

247

:

In many different ways.

248

:

Mm-hmm.

249

:

Including exactly the way you described

and exactly the way I described.

250

:

Mm-hmm.

251

:

So we are still in the same

cultural soup that we were mm-hmm.

252

:

10, 20, 30 years ago.

253

:

That is followed us for

the last 5,000 years.

254

:

Mm-hmm.

255

:

You know, it's, it's in, it's in

our, I call it the cultural soup, but

256

:

it's also in part, it's in our DNA.

257

:

Mm-hmm.

258

:

And.

259

:

You know, we, we, women have only

been at this employment game at

260

:

having our own money for a very,

very, very short period of time.

261

:

Right.

262

:

In the grand scheme of things.

263

:

Mm-hmm.

264

:

And so representation is a real issue.

265

:

Right.

266

:

In what, what we see growing up,

in what we feel in our physical

267

:

being you know, what feels safe.

268

:

Mm-hmm.

269

:

And so this is something that I work

on with my clients is helping them find

270

:

that place of safety to be able to.

271

:

Walk through the fire mm-hmm.

272

:

Of, of standing in the heat of, oh my God,

I'm asking for more and how to do that.

273

:

So it's the mechanics.

274

:

The strategy of negotiating,

of asking for more.

275

:

And even Pricing your

favorite topic, we can do it.

276

:

Exactly.

277

:

And when I'm working with my

women business owners, it's the

278

:

same, it's the same type of stuff.

279

:

Yeah.

280

:

Is, is working through that.

281

:

And then also, you know,

shoring it up with the with

282

:

the ability to hold ourselves.

283

:

Physiologically, the mindset, the the

what we have to do with so much we

284

:

know now about neuroscience and and,

and even somatics science in terms of

285

:

what, you know, you know, the whole

thing around trauma informed coaching

286

:

and all how that sits in the body.

287

:

And it can really right.

288

:

Guard us against doing things that are

actually in our best interest mm-hmm.

289

:

And in the best interest

of others as well.

290

:

Janene: Right, right, right.

291

:

So one of the things that Carrie

shared with me earlier is that she

292

:

was in part responsible, I will say.

293

:

For one of my, a chapter in one

of my favorite books of all times,

294

:

playing Big from Tara Moore.

295

:

If you haven't read this book, it's

a, it's a must, but, and not just for

296

:

women, but I also think for men for

fathers, for husbands, you know, I

297

:

think it's, it's a really important to

understand we're coming from, and am I

298

:

right that you're responsible in part

for, for contributing to the chapter on.

299

:

On negotiation or was it

in the, the course content.

300

:

In the course content.

301

:

Yeah, in the course content.

302

:

Okay.

303

:

Carrie: So I, I, when she, she

was writing the book after I got

304

:

involved in the course content.

305

:

Mm-hmm.

306

:

So some of it's in there,

in the book as well.

307

:

Right.

308

:

Carrie: But the, the module on negotiation

is, is actually me doing the training.

309

:

Okay.

310

:

Carrie: And Tara coaching

following up with that.

311

:

Right.

312

:

So it's a great relationship that

we've had for over a decade now.

313

:

Janene: It's a fantastic book

and I did the program as well

314

:

and I used to regularly run

book groups just on that book.

315

:

It's the only book group I've ever run,

and that's the only book that I ever.

316

:

That I ever had because

I find it so powerful.

317

:

Now, I'd like to shift things for

a moment here, because of course

318

:

we wanna learn more from you about

negotiation, but I wanna take this

319

:

in, in the direction of Pricing.

320

:

So I'd like to understand a little bit

about what was Pricing like when, for

321

:

you, when you first started your business.

322

:

Carrie: Well, it's interesting Janene.

323

:

'cause you've already heard my story

from when I started my career, right?

324

:

Mm-hmm.

325

:

As a lawyer.

326

:

So I already knew that.

327

:

And yet, you know, it's like I

was saying, this stuff follows us.

328

:

There's a reason why I didn't ask.

329

:

For more at the time that I didn't,

didn't know the mechanics and I

330

:

didn't feel that I had the ability

331

:

mm-hmm.

332

:

Carrie: In that moment to ask for more.

333

:

And the same thing was true

for the other two women.

334

:

So there's some gendered reasons

why that's true, but also personal.

335

:

Mm-hmm.

336

:

Carrie: And so when it

came time to really.

337

:

Price out my first offer

as a, for a paying client.

338

:

It was uncomfortable.

339

:

I'm not gonna kid you.

340

:

Right?

341

:

Of course.

342

:

It was uncomfortable.

343

:

I was like, and it was very personal.

344

:

I do wanna make that distinction

because it felt very personal, right?

345

:

Mm-hmm.

346

:

Oh, what am I worth?

347

:

That's what it, the inquiry, and

this tends to happen, I find for

348

:

a lot of women business owners

and entrepreneurs is it is Pricing

349

:

becomes a what am I personally worth?

350

:

So and I had come from the legal

world as well, where everything

351

:

is on billable hours, right?

352

:

Mm-hmm.

353

:

Now there's good and bad around

that, but everything's defined

354

:

by that over results, right?

355

:

Over the outcome itself.

356

:

Right.

357

:

Carrie: And so stepping

into entrepreneurial Pricing

358

:

was like, oh, what do I do?

359

:

I mean, I was trained as a coach

to coach for an hour or 90 minutes

360

:

or whatever that looked like.

361

:

So how do I do this?

362

:

Oh, I must think about how I might

have priced myself as a lawyer.

363

:

Mm-hmm.

364

:

Well, I've only been at this, I haven't

even been at this for six months.

365

:

So what do I do?

366

:

Do I charge?

367

:

Do I charge lowers so

I can attract people?

368

:

Say, oh, I'm just new.

369

:

You know, so, and this is common.

370

:

Yes.

371

:

Carrie: And, you know, it was, it was

kind of like staring at a blank canvas and

372

:

trying to go I need to be creative here.

373

:

Can't do it right now.

374

:

You know what I'm saying?

375

:

So,

376

:

Janene: and there's also a lot of fear.

377

:

I, and it maybe wasn't the case for

you, but I think for a, well, my

378

:

experience is that for a lot of women,

there's a lot of fear associated

379

:

with putting a price out there.

380

:

Carrie: Absolutely.

381

:

Yeah.

382

:

And so, of course I, I, I underpriced at

first I looked and, and I thought, okay,

383

:

well I'm gonna do, and also because I was

looking at what others were doing, who

384

:

were starting out, and I was listening

to the, the words of wisdom at the

385

:

time is to, you know, do it for free.

386

:

Get a few clients, get some testimonials.

387

:

There's still some

advantages in doing that.

388

:

Yeah.

389

:

And and also, and it was just like,

and then raise your prices as you go.

390

:

Mm-hmm.

391

:

Carrie: So, you know, there's some pros

and cons and some val validation in there.

392

:

Mm-hmm.

393

:

But, you know, one of the things

that I learned that I think

394

:

was really valuable mm-hmm.

395

:

In all of that was when

you underprice yourself.

396

:

Others don't see your value.

397

:

Mm-hmm.

398

:

I'm gonna separate value

and worth for a second.

399

:

Mm-hmm.

400

:

Because value is about, this is what

negotiation is about, this is what Pricing

401

:

is, this is what business is about.

402

:

Right.

403

:

Right.

404

:

It's a value exchange.

405

:

Mm-hmm.

406

:

Carrie: I'm providing you

with this in exchange for.

407

:

Something.

408

:

Mm-hmm.

409

:

In exchange for compensation.

410

:

Mm-hmm.

411

:

For a, a fee, a price,

or whatever that is.

412

:

Mm-hmm.

413

:

Carrie: And so it was really

about stepping back and thinking,

414

:

okay, well what am I delivering?

415

:

What are they receiving?

416

:

And so it was really getting

learning to get into that.

417

:

And that took a little while.

418

:

It took two, looking to others who

were, where I wanted to grow into and

419

:

thinking, oh, okay, so if she's doing

this, or even he, in some cases mm-hmm.

420

:

Mm-hmm.

421

:

I can give it a try.

422

:

Janene: Right.

423

:

I always, I talk about it often with

my clients is shifting their vision.

424

:

So when they're looking at their business,

they see it through a lens of value.

425

:

Yes, yes.

426

:

The value for me is one of the

things that most people, many

427

:

people, male and female, miss.

428

:

And that's one of the main reasons why

they end up feeling so insecure or feel a

429

:

lack of confidence around their Pricing.

430

:

Carrie: Absolutely.

431

:

Janene: Interesting.

432

:

So when it comes, if we take these

two topics, the Pricing topic and the

433

:

negotiation, of course there is a, an

assumption that as an entrepreneur,

434

:

at some point in time you're

going to be negotiating something.

435

:

And I'm curious.

436

:

What are the differences between

how men and women negotiate and how

437

:

that might come into play in, in

entrepreneurship or in running a business?

438

:

Carrie: Well, and, and I, I'm gonna

but make a caveat right off the

439

:

top is when we're talking about

the differences between men and

440

:

women, these are trends, right?

441

:

These are trends, generalization.

442

:

Yeah.

443

:

And so in any trend there

is like a bell curve.

444

:

Mm-hmm.

445

:

There's the average in the middle where

there's a reason why research goes

446

:

that way, and the research that I have

read and understand and keep up with as

447

:

well as anecdotally what I hear from my

clients and out there in the marketplace.

448

:

Mm-hmm.

449

:

Mm-hmm.

450

:

Carrie: Tends to reflect this.

451

:

So there's always gonna

be the outlier, right?

452

:

Right.

453

:

There's always gonna be the outlier that

are gonna be different men and women who

454

:

are gonna say, I don't relate to that.

455

:

Of course.

456

:

So in general when it comes to

negotiating in employment, I.

457

:

For example.

458

:

Mm-hmm.

459

:

Women are now asking at a greater

rate than they were when I started

460

:

to speak about this back in the late

two thousands, based on some of the

461

:

research that was coming out, that,

that point that was saying that men ask

462

:

four times more often than women do.

463

:

Mm-hmm.

464

:

For salary when they're nego,

when they're offered a job.

465

:

Mm-hmm.

466

:

Carrie: And and, and here's

another, the second piece.

467

:

That is still somewhat true, is

still very true, is when women do

468

:

ask for more, they get 33% less.

469

:

Mm-hmm.

470

:

33%

471

:

Janene: less.

472

:

That was one of the things in, in

Tara's book that always stuck with me.

473

:

Yeah.

474

:

Was this, this bias around both men, and

this was in, I think the research she

475

:

shared was in relationship to feedback,

but both men and women tend to give women.

476

:

Feedback that is less actionable.

477

:

Correct.

478

:

It's vague and wow, it's vague or it's,

you know, it's like a personal character

479

:

trait or, you know, it's not, it's not as

actionable in terms of the type and, and

480

:

quality of the feedback that they give.

481

:

So it sounds, I give you an

482

:

Carrie: example.

483

:

Mm-hmm.

484

:

One of my pet peeves.

485

:

Can I give you an example of one of my

pet pees sly, I'll try this on for size.

486

:

You need more executive presence.

487

:

Janene: Yeah.

488

:

What is that?

489

:

What do you do

490

:

Carrie: with that?

491

:

No, no.

492

:

There's, there's a, a great thing that

any person who gets feedback like that can

493

:

do right away is say, what do you mean?

494

:

Right.

495

:

Or what's an example?

496

:

Can you give me an example?

497

:

Right.

498

:

Carrie: What, what, what

do I need to be doing?

499

:

Can I get more specific?

500

:

Word examples of what I need to do.

501

:

So we need to have

specificity around that.

502

:

Like what's the specificity

around the feedback?

503

:

Right.

504

:

Ask for that specificity.

505

:

Mm-hmm.

506

:

So that's one thing.

507

:

Yeah, you're right.

508

:

It is about, there's vagueness that

that creeps into it because one of

509

:

Janene: the things I see in a

Pricing context is that women try

510

:

to prepare themselves to avoid.

511

:

The negotiation conversation

altogether, yes.

512

:

As opposed to prepare

themselves to negotiate.

513

:

Carrie: I think that's absolutely true

in both those contexts, by the way.

514

:

Okay.

515

:

In both contexts.

516

:

Yeah.

517

:

Yeah.

518

:

And so one of the best things

that that we do is rehearsal.

519

:

Yeah.

520

:

Carrie: Rehearsal.

521

:

Janene: I love

522

:

Carrie: that 'cause of

the avoidance, right?

523

:

So we, we, we put together the

strategy, we put together the plan,

524

:

and then it's like, okay, let's get on

camera or let's, if we're in person,

525

:

right?

526

:

It was just

527

:

Carrie: with a client the other

day and she's, and she, by

528

:

the way, she's in the C-suite.

529

:

Mm-hmm.

530

:

Carrie: And yet one of the

things that she has a hard time

531

:

with is accepting compliments.

532

:

Mm-hmm.

533

:

And it receiving good news.

534

:

Right.

535

:

She doesn't, you know, there's

a resistance to that and

536

:

there's a whole bunch of reasons

why that might be the case.

537

:

A lot of us are.

538

:

A lot of us are.

539

:

Yes.

540

:

And so we actually did a

rehearsal in, at lunch.

541

:

We were in a restaurant, but

we had a nice quiet corner and

542

:

said, okay, we're gonna practice.

543

:

Yeah.

544

:

And it was really uncomfortable for her.

545

:

Yeah.

546

:

For me to get the feedback from me.

547

:

Her coach that she's been working

with for three years, I mean,

548

:

we have a trust relationship.

549

:

Right, right, right.

550

:

But she was having a hard, so

this is, this is how we, we just

551

:

wanna unpack that and practice.

552

:

Doing it differently because we need

to get the words out of our mouth

553

:

and actually form our lips around

the words in order for them to

554

:

get out when we're under pressure.

555

:

Because the moment you're in that

tough situation, again with the high

556

:

stakes moments in a conversation,

in a negotiation, and they say.

557

:

Oh, well, here's the best we can do.

558

:

And you're like, blah, blah, blah.

559

:

You know?

560

:

Exactly, exactly.

561

:

Unless you've rehearsed it in some way.

562

:

Janene: Yeah, yeah.

563

:

I did the You can, the

rest of you can't see this.

564

:

'cause we're, we're, we're on audio only.

565

:

But I do the Dan Egal who did the

handy brain model where, oh yes.

566

:

Yeah, you get triggered

and you flip your lid.

567

:

Boop lid.

568

:

And it's so true, right?

569

:

And then you can't, you, you know, that's

why when you feel nervous in a negotiation

570

:

or when somebody asks you what you charge,

why you can't, you know, part of the

571

:

reason you can't think clearly is because

you literally sever the connection between

572

:

that logical thinking part of your brain

and, and the part that's just reactive.

573

:

Know what, I love that you brought up the,

the practicing because that's something

574

:

that I do with my clients all the time.

575

:

Let's, you know, rehearse your new prices.

576

:

Let's rehearse, you know, what you'll

say when they say that's too expensive.

577

:

And that sort of practice can

help you prepare for those

578

:

situations and, and it helps you

actually to stay more comfortable.

579

:

Carrie: Agree,

580

:

Janene: because you don't

have to make up an answer.

581

:

You kind of already have

thought about it in advance.

582

:

Carrie: And you practice the

difficult moments, right?

583

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

584

:

And but before we even get there, we have

to start at the beginning, which is around

585

:

that clarity instead of the vagueness.

586

:

Right?

587

:

Carrie: Right.

588

:

So we're given, so women are

typically given vague feedback

589

:

or unactionable as Tara says.

590

:

Mm-hmm.

591

:

And we're also, in return, we

can also be vague ourselves.

592

:

Right.

593

:

We can be vague with what we want.

594

:

Mm-hmm.

595

:

So, and I think there's a very.

596

:

Reasonable reason, background for that.

597

:

And that is, you know, for millennia

I ask we weren't actually allowed.

598

:

Mm-hmm.

599

:

Carrie: Have clarity.

600

:

We weren't really allowed to

want something specific for

601

:

ourselves because mm-hmm.

602

:

We were at the whim of

the males in our lives.

603

:

Right.

604

:

We were supported by them financially.

605

:

I mean, it wasn't until the mid

seventies that women were allowed to

606

:

hold their own credit, their own loans,

their own houses in their own name.

607

:

Right.

608

:

So this is a relatively recent

piece in our history, right?

609

:

So in our DNA, we've got all this.

610

:

Stuff this crap.

611

:

And it's also in men's DNA too.

612

:

Yes.

613

:

In terms of, and women in terms

of how women see other women too.

614

:

Mm-hmm.

615

:

Right?

616

:

Mm-hmm.

617

:

So what we expect of men and women

when they come to the table, by the

618

:

way, in negotiation, is different too.

619

:

So I have heard this

story and I still hear it.

620

:

Mm-hmm.

621

:

That when a male comes to the

table, and this is in the employment

622

:

situation specifically, and I

think it also mirrors mm-hmm.

623

:

In the startup world and in

the venture capital world.

624

:

And when, when men, when women

go for funding at banks mm-hmm.

625

:

For their own businesses mm-hmm.

626

:

Is the expectation is

that men will negotiate.

627

:

So already they're giving

him money on the table.

628

:

Right.

629

:

With the, they're already upping the

offer so they don't have to negotiate.

630

:

Right.

631

:

Right.

632

:

Right.

633

:

So this is a, a cycle, but I wanna

come back to the clarity piece.

634

:

Mm-hmm.

635

:

I did this talk many years ago for

a group of women in construction.

636

:

Mm-hmm.

637

:

Women in construction.

638

:

Now, I don't know about you, but

my first image when I thought, oh,

639

:

I'm getting to go with these tough

women who are in construction.

640

:

They're gonna be strong and powerful.

641

:

They're gonna have a

few things to teach me.

642

:

Well.

643

:

Not quite.

644

:

So women in construction, a lot

of them were internal, right?

645

:

Mm-hmm.

646

:

They were internal to

construction organizations.

647

:

They were running the office.

648

:

Mm-hmm.

649

:

A few of them were out

actually in the field.

650

:

Not many, but I was asked to, to ask

them a question that they could all

651

:

answer at the beginning of my talk.

652

:

And I thought, okay, what am I gonna ask?

653

:

And so I said, okay, I've

got a great question.

654

:

I'd like you to tell me what do you want?

655

:

That was my question specifically.

656

:

What do you want?

657

:

And I tell you, Janene, they went

around the room, 40 of them, and 80%

658

:

of them started their answer with this.

659

:

I dunno,

660

:

Carrie: I would like da da and only a

handful of them use the words I want.

661

:

Now this may sound like, oh,

Carrie, what are you talking about?

662

:

They're the same things.

663

:

Mm-hmm.

664

:

Carrie: Well, English major, right?

665

:

Want is declarative.

666

:

I want this.

667

:

I would like Is conditional.

668

:

Yeah.

669

:

Carrie: Is conditional.

670

:

Yeah.

671

:

Carrie: And so if you think

about it, I would like X mm-hmm.

672

:

If what?

673

:

If it would happen?

674

:

If I am lucky if you would give it to me.

675

:

So it's all dependent on

something else, timing something

676

:

happening that's outside of your.

677

:

Right.

678

:

So that this, I think we come

by this honestly, and so it's

679

:

a very different thing, which

we have a hard time being that.

680

:

Yeah.

681

:

So that's the first piece

is getting really clear.

682

:

Mm-hmm.

683

:

That clarity is like the the

priceless piece of the puzzle mm-hmm.

684

:

Is spending time in that clarity.

685

:

Whether it's, yeah, discerning what you're

gonna have is your Pricing, which, you

686

:

know, I do a whole thing with my women

entrepreneurs around that to, to discern,

687

:

well, what, what is that based on?

688

:

Mm-hmm.

689

:

And, and the same thing with, with

with the executives when they're going

690

:

through the, their, comp negotiations

is, we gotta get clear on what that is.

691

:

And also part of it is

also what you don't want.

692

:

So it's like having that,

having that boundary clear too.

693

:

Janene: When I, when I was still in

the corporate world, I, I went, went,

694

:

took the train to go for an interview.

695

:

I think it was the second

round of interviews and.

696

:

I hadn't really told people I was

interviewing and I got on the train

697

:

to come home after the interview and

I ran into a friend on the train.

698

:

She was the head of a HR from

Europe for a large FMCG company.

699

:

And so I confessed to her what was going

on and she said, okay, what do you want?

700

:

And I was like, a deer head in the co,

you know, a deer caught in the headlights.

701

:

I was like, what do you mean what I want?

702

:

She goes, that recruiter's

gonna call you tomorrow and he's

703

:

gonna ask you what they want.

704

:

'cause they're gonna offer you a job.

705

:

Almost.

706

:

Definitely.

707

:

So she took out a little cocktail

napkin and we spent the next 15

708

:

minutes of the 20 minute train ride.

709

:

Making a list of what I wanted and,

and the things that, and she goes and,

710

:

and be wild because you may not, at

the time that he asked, you have the

711

:

courage to ask for all of it, but if

you write down everything, you're more

712

:

likely to actually ask for some of

the things in the middle there that.

713

:

You know, that maybe you wouldn't

have or would've already discounted.

714

:

So it was a, it was a great lesson

to me and a great exercise as well.

715

:

And now whenever I'm in a

similar situation, I'm always

716

:

preparing my want list alongside

717

:

a gift you gave you.

718

:

Janene: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great.

719

:

Cool.

720

:

Excellent.

721

:

So, Carrie.

722

:

Many entrepreneurs, they struggle with

setting the right prices for their

723

:

products and services and sort of re

let's say, regardless of the negotiation,

724

:

although there are some important

tactics and strategies if you're in an

725

:

industry where you need to negotiate.

726

:

But I'm curious, based on your

experience as an entrepreneur, what

727

:

tips or advice do you have for people?

728

:

Hmm, great

729

:

Carrie: question.

730

:

I.

731

:

Well, one of the tips is, is that you know

that Pricing is, is about positioning.

732

:

And it's also a bit about permission

in terms of giving yourself permission

733

:

to stand for that once you've decided

what it is, and I say, decided.

734

:

Advisedly, I mean, it's the, the root

of the word is to cut off, right?

735

:

Is to, is to leave behind

everything else When you decide,

736

:

you cut off the remainder.

737

:

Mm-hmm.

738

:

And so when you decide on your

price, decide on your price, and

739

:

that's your positioning, right?

740

:

Of, of your, of your

product, of your service.

741

:

And here's my tip is, my

tip is don't give discounts.

742

:

Don't give discount and actually get the

word discount out of your vocabulary.

743

:

Why?

744

:

Because think about it, it's a di you're.

745

:

The counting of your

services, you're dissing them.

746

:

You're taking or saying, no,

it's not really worth that.

747

:

Here.

748

:

You can have it for a thousand dollars.

749

:

That's my price, but oh, oh, oh.

750

:

You, you don't, you

can't really do it today.

751

:

Oh, oh, you need, oh, let

me just go down to 800.

752

:

Well, what have you done for yourself now?

753

:

You've now discounted yourself.

754

:

You now discounted your business.

755

:

You've now discounted your ability to

meet your target goals for your business.

756

:

Mm-hmm.

757

:

There's a pushback and

they can't meet the price.

758

:

Mm-hmm.

759

:

Great.

760

:

They're probably still interested.

761

:

What, what can you do?

762

:

Right?

763

:

Ask, ask questions, or, you know, maybe

let you can rejig your, not your price.

764

:

But the package, whatever

it is you're offering.

765

:

So, you know, for myself, right?

766

:

If I'm a, if I'm offering a, a package,

I, I do more packages with clients.

767

:

Mm-hmm.

768

:

Carrie: And I say, okay, even if

I'm doing it for a corporate client,

769

:

it's like, okay, we can, in, in three

months, we can do X, Y, and Z and here's

770

:

because that's what they've asked for.

771

:

Right?

772

:

Right.

773

:

So for all the things that you've asked

for, here's, here's the fee, right.

774

:

Right.

775

:

And they said, oh, well

we can't quite do that.

776

:

This, so I have another

client, I'll give an example.

777

:

I had a client that we were in

negotiation with over a some team

778

:

building work around culture and

negotiation and all kinds of things.

779

:

And so he asked for a bunch of stuff and

we said, okay, well we can do it this way.

780

:

And, but we gave him three options.

781

:

So that's the other thing too, is

it's always helpful to provide a

782

:

couple of options to them already.

783

:

Yes.

784

:

Is we can do this for that

and we can do this for that.

785

:

Mm-hmm.

786

:

And he ended up doing a multi-phase

approach where we said, okay, well you

787

:

know what the, in this budget year, I can

do a, so let's, let's go with a mm-hmm.

788

:

Didn't.

789

:

Bock on the fee at all.

790

:

'cause the overall fee, it

just was too much in Right.

791

:

12 month period for their budget.

792

:

So they went with a, yeah.

793

:

And then they said we'll do B next year.

794

:

Mm-hmm.

795

:

So that's great.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

So we can negotiate there too,

798

:

Janene: right.

799

:

As

800

:

Carrie: opposed to, I call it the price

801

:

Janene: value scale.

802

:

Carrie: Exactly, keep

the price, value, scale,

803

:

Janene: and balance, and as much

as possible play on the value side

804

:

and let the price side be where,

be in balance with the value side.

805

:

Yeah.

806

:

Yeah.

807

:

Carrie: And if I can just

add one quick mm-hmm.

808

:

Quick tip.

809

:

And for those of you, I guess you're not

on camera, but I'm just holding my finger

810

:

up to my mouth because my biggest tip in

negotiation for, especially for women,

811

:

anytime, anywhere, is to stop talking.

812

:

When you put your offer out, it's like

putting your anchor out into the ground.

813

:

It's just stop, let it land.

814

:

Yeah.

815

:

Carrie: Wait for what they come back with.

816

:

Yeah.

817

:

Carrie: Yeah.

818

:

I think the don't try to fill up

justification and excuses because

819

:

you're just diminishing what

you've just put in the ground.

820

:

Yeah.

821

:

Janene: Yeah.

822

:

I think the, the instinct is

to, to try and justify it.

823

:

Yeah.

824

:

But there, you don't need to justify it.

825

:

What you need to do is you need to let

them reflect on it and think about,

826

:

okay, does that fit with what we want?

827

:

Let them, let them lead into the

next part of that discussion,

828

:

and then you can respond to that.

829

:

I love that.

830

:

Carrie: Absolutely.

831

:

Excellent.

832

:

Just own it.

833

:

Yeah.

834

:

Yeah.

835

:

Janene: Love that.

836

:

Stop.

837

:

Carrie: Stop talking.

838

:

Janene: All right.

839

:

We need to start wrapping this up now.

840

:

Okay.

841

:

So I'd like to know if there's one thing

you'd like people to remember from our

842

:

conversation today, what would that be?

843

:

Carrie: Well, you know,

I think Pricing mm-hmm.

844

:

Is.

845

:

A filter, not a barrier.

846

:

It's a filter, not a barrier.

847

:

And so when you've done your homework,

you've worked with me, or you've worked

848

:

with Janene and you've got your clarity

and you've got your price decided,

849

:

and your Pricing fits the goals that

you have for your business mm-hmm.

850

:

And all the things that you're wanting

to do, it's a filter, not a barrier.

851

:

Mm-hmm.

852

:

Yes.

853

:

Some people will say.

854

:

At the end of the day, you know

what, it's, it's not a fit for me.

855

:

Or they'll say it, I, I just can't

do it this year, or whatever.

856

:

Mm-hmm.

857

:

And if you're not discounting, again,

your Pricing to fit their situation,

858

:

'cause it's not gonna feel good, I'm

gonna tell you that right now because

859

:

I did do it once and I will never do

it again because it doesn't feel good.

860

:

And, and so you're

discounting yourself, right?

861

:

Right.

862

:

So it's a filter.

863

:

Let it be that filter for those people

who are designed to work with you mm-hmm.

864

:

Mm-hmm.

865

:

And are ready to work with you.

866

:

Yeah.

867

:

You know, I have this card on my,

on my bookcase a little further

868

:

down that says what does it say?

869

:

Oh, yeah, you'll be too

much for some people.

870

:

Yeah.

871

:

And they are not your people

to remind me, you know that.

872

:

Okay.

873

:

You know, I'm not everybody's cup of tea,

and that's fine because I will be for

874

:

Janene: some.

875

:

Yeah.

876

:

I love, that's fantastic.

877

:

I absolutely love that you triggered

something in my head that I'd just

878

:

like to, to, to bring into the

conversation before we wrap this up.

879

:

And that's that for a lot of women,

they also, you know, we're so used to

880

:

trying to anticipate everybody's needs.

881

:

And what they want.

882

:

And so a lot of times what I see is that

people, you know, they throw the price

883

:

out there and then they're trying to

anticipate the other person's reaction.

884

:

I had a, another guest

on here, Orna Lewis.

885

:

She was on the show while, a few

years back, but she said, get your

886

:

mind outta other people's pockets.

887

:

And I thought that was really useful.

888

:

So that's another really

good reason to stop talking.

889

:

Carrie: Yeah.

890

:

And, and don't say don't,

don't say their No.

891

:

Before they do.

892

:

Right, right.

893

:

Yeah.

894

:

Let that happens a.

895

:

Yeah, because you might be surprised.

896

:

Yeah.

897

:

And no, no isn't the

end of the negotiation.

898

:

No, it doesn't have to be.

899

:

No.

900

:

You know, sometimes

it's the beginning even.

901

:

Right.

902

:

That's

903

:

Janene: right.

904

:

So what's next for you and your business?

905

:

I.

906

:

Hmm.

907

:

Carrie: Wow.

908

:

Great question.

909

:

Well, I've got another course

that I am working on right now

910

:

that's gonna be coming out soon

called Negotiation by Design.

911

:

Mm-hmm.

912

:

So it's taking one of my programs my

flag flagship programs on negotiation

913

:

for women actually, and bringing.

914

:

Human design directly into the model.

915

:

'cause I've been using it a

lot with clients and helping

916

:

them to get clarity again.

917

:

Right.

918

:

On the, on where are their strengths,

their superpowers, excuse me.

919

:

And even how are they designed to make

decisions in the best way for them,

920

:

and how are they designed to interact

with others and be heard by others?

921

:

Mm-hmm.

922

:

Their voice.

923

:

There's a whole piece that goes

into the human design blueprint

924

:

if you're not familiar with it.

925

:

And so it's not gonna.

926

:

Be the dominant part, but

it will be fed into it.

927

:

So it's gonna become an integral

part of, of working with

928

:

negotiating with your design.

929

:

Mm-hmm.

930

:

Mm-hmm.

931

:

And even in terms of how others

will be designed differently

932

:

from you, which is also also key.

933

:

Interesting.

934

:

Even what your, the quote

that you mentioned from your

935

:

guest, you can't possibly know

what's in their pocket really.

936

:

Right.

937

:

You can't possibly know what

someone else has in their mind.

938

:

No.

939

:

And so, you know, it's a, it's

about recognizing that, and

940

:

we don't have to control that.

941

:

Yeah,

942

:

we're just

943

:

Carrie: here to influence what

the outcome can be that would be

944

:

ideally satisfactory to both of us.

945

:

Yeah,

946

:

Janene: yeah.

947

:

I also, I also always remind people,

you know, how dare you, how insulting

948

:

is that to somebody to, you know,

to make the decision for you about

949

:

what you can or cannot afford?

950

:

Yeah, so super.

951

:

I love the direction that

you're heading there.

952

:

If people would like to find out more

about how to work with you or get

953

:

more information about what you offer,

where should they reach out to you?

954

:

Carrie: Well, thanks.

955

:

Thanks, Janene.

956

:

I really appreciate that.

957

:

Mm-hmm.

958

:

I think the best way for people to,

to find me and find out more about me,

959

:

the easiest way is to come to LinkedIn.

960

:

Okay.

961

:

And just look up my name, Carrie Gallant.

962

:

Mm-hmm.

963

:

And you'll find me pretty much,

I think, at the top of your

964

:

Google, if you do Google wise.

965

:

Or just on LinkedIn.

966

:

LinkedIn and there's access to my website

and, and dms and all that good stuff.

967

:

That's a, a great place.

968

:

I'm there pretty much every day.

969

:

Janene: Mm-hmm.

970

:

Excellent.

971

:

So we'll put the link to her LinkedIn

profile and to her website and other

972

:

places in the show notes for you.

973

:

Carrie, thank you so much

for, for joining me today.

974

:

This was really a great conversation.

975

:

Carrie: Well, thanks

for having me, Janene.

976

:

I had a lot of fun and all the

best to you and your listeners.

977

:

Excellent.

978

:

Janene: Thank you everyone

for listening today.

979

:

We were very happy to have you join us.

980

:

I wish you all the best and as

always, enjoy Pricing everyone

Follow

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube