This week, leadership and team coach LaTonya Wilkins joins Within partners Bev Attfield and Jeff Melnyk in an exploration of what it takes to uncover and unleash psychological safety in our teams, how to create inclusivity and belonging for our people, and what's unlocked within an organization when we do.

Learn more about Within People and the work we do here.

Hi everyone.

I'm Bev.

I'm a partner at, within this is my first time hosting a podcast

for Reimagining Work From Within.

I'm really excited to be back on this side of the microphone as having hosted

a few podcasts of my own in a prior life.

And it's really awesome to be back in the the podcast seat.

So today I'm really delighted to be hosting a conversation with Latonya

Wilkins, and Latonya is the best selling author of Leading Below The Surface

which is a book on how to build real and psychologically safe relationships

with people who are different from you.

Latonya is also the founder of Change Coaches and she spends all

of her time thinking about how to inspire real change in the workplace.

She's a wonderful individual who I got to know a couple of years ago and have just

been really inspired by and continue to be supportive of the work that she and her

team are doing to really help us to get to the next level with DEI in the workplace.

And how do we unlearn leadership styles and bring about a real

meaningful change in terms of the way that we build workplaces that

are welcoming inclusive and kind to everyone who comes to work every day?

And that means it's more than just saying that you're checking off a list of things

that relate to DEI that you're actually living and breathing fair, equitable,

and kind practices and behaviors and building those kinds of relationships

in your workplace as a leader.

So really looking forward to the contribution that LaTonya will

be making to our podcast and to help our listeners understand in

particular today, the connection between psychological safety and DEI.

I also have my fellow partner, Jeff Melnyk , around the table with us today,

and he's going to be jumping in to share his thoughts about psychological

safety and his experience that he's had.

You know, when most of us started our careers, psychological safety wasn't

even a thing, it wasn't something that we had identified as being important

for us as leaders to be thinking about.

And you know, as we've started to see a new kind of leadership

take place in the workplace.

And there's the demand for it by the people who work in those workplaces.

The call to action for leaders is first of all, to be creating different

kinds of work environments, and then to be doing the work on ourselves.

That allow us to create environments that are safe, that help people

take risks, that help people feel like they can be creative without

barriers and that they can truly be themselves in those workplaces.

So, thank you Jeff, thank you LaTonya.

Let's get to the conversation.

Wow.

This is feeling like I've missed this excitement of getting a podcast

recording started and having four people at the table it's just a tad more

challenging than just the one on one.

Right Latonya?

Yeah.

It's the kind of disorganized kind of chaotic, kinda like a party, right?

Yeah.

It's like we're on clubhouse, but actually have an audience.

Right.

Yeah.

Do people still use clubhouse?

Come on.

I don't know.

I keep getting app updates from them with the new picture every

time, which doesn't of course fit with anything on my home screen.

And I'm like, are people still in here?

Is the clubhouse still working?

Who are those people, by the way, in those photos?

I don't know!

Random people chosen.

This doesn't fit with any other icons on your phone.

And you're like, what is this?

Why gonna have a new person?

Yeah.

So random.

Well, I'm delighted to be hosting a podcast episode again.

I've missed being behind the mic and it's great to be back.

And also great to be back chatting with Latonya Wilkins, who is the author of

Leading Below The Surface who is joining me here with Partner at Within People

Jeff Melnyk and we're gonna have a really lovely conversation about psychological

safety and how it connects to and why it's so important when we're thinking about DEI

in our workplaces and in our organizations and in our teams in particular.

So welcome everyone.

Thanks for being around the table here, virtually with me.

And yeah, just looking forward to this conversation and this

time that we have together.

So how are you both feeling today?

What's going on in your respective worlds?

LaTonya?

Hey, I can't complain.

It's a sunny day in Chicago.

I mean, we get like, what, three months of this?

Three months of good weather.

So Bev, I know you don't know what that's like being, being

in San Diego though, so, but...

Wow.

I'm not gonna lie.

The weather is not disappointing me.

That's for sure.

It's, it's incredibly, consistently amazing.

Are you disappointed Bev?

Are you thinking I've made the wrong choice?

I've moved from the Pacific Northwest to the Sunbelt and, oh my goodness.

What have I done?

Yeah.

Well, it's so far so good.

Right?

Two weeks in, I'll give you a report back in another couple.

She's bored of the sun, everyone.

I, I woke up in beautiful foggy San Fransisco today, very happy

that I was not still in London as I just got back from London.

And of course it was 40 degrees in London this week, which if you've ever

been in London, when it's 20 degrees, you know that you don't wanna be on

the underground on a day like that.

So, big compassion and shoutouts to our, our partners in London and

our, and our clients in London.

Because I know they've had a hot one and thinking of all of our friends in

Europe as they go through this time.

Yeah.

What a, what a summer.

Yeah, it's, it's heating up.

It's you know, it's something that we are seeing more and more of and

yeah, it's just, you know, speaks to some of the pressing issues that

we're facing in the world right now.

It just, it just feels like there's, it's so tumultuous out there.

You know, not least of which in you know, the, the world of workplaces

and things that are going on for people in, in the workplace.

So, that gives us a great chance to jump straight into you know, our conversation

that we're gonna have here today, which is a, a really important one.

You know, I think we're gonna hit head on one of the, the first questions that,

that I always find I struggle with.

And Latonya, hoping that you can share your like working version of this.

The question is, you know, what is the definition of psychological safety?

You know, I've heard a lot of different people talk about psychological safety

and people tend to get really stuck on the word, psychological in that phrase.

Or immediately attaching it to the emotional side of wellbeing

in the workplace, which it is.

I mean, that's part of it, but maybe help us just understand, like

what's your working version of, of what psychological safety is?

Yeah.

I love that question because, you know, today I was reflecting on many different

things that we talk about in the workplace that are, are prominent things

that we talk about in the workplace.

For example, we might talk about belonging and what that means, or we

might talk about inclusion, what that means and all these other things.

But one thing you'll notice is that as more and more people kind of capture

those ideas and accept those ideas.

The definitions kind of are fluid, which is pretty amazing.

You know, it's like I used to work at the Gies College of Business at the

University of Illinois and just being around researchers that kind of research

these concepts and bring them to life.

And then other people kind of add in more and more to it.

And so with that, I will say is the original definition was being able to

speak, without repercussions at work.

Right.

And so it's being able to make mistakes without punishment at work.

But what what's happened is that this is even expanded.

And Amy Edmondson wrote the forward of my book, who, and she also kind of started

a lot of the research, the most well known research in psychological safety.

And she had even admitted that it was starting to expand and,

and apply to different things.

And the one thing that it's starting to apply to more is inclusion, right.

Inclusion and belonging.

And so, with that, how has it evolved?

Well, it's evolved in that, it's now it's being able to bring your whole

self to work without repercussions, because you know, you as an individual,

if you're different, the way you interact may inherently be a mistake.

Right.

And so it it's kind of, kind of gone out and broadened to

apply to many different things.

Being able to feel safe expressing your real self at work.

And that could be, for example being able to say something that you did

over the weekend, even though your boss may not know what that is, but

feeling safe enough to tell them and they're not gonna judge you.

Right.

And so , that's basically what psychological safety means, how it

started and, and how it's evolved.

Yeah.

And I really like the, you know, that you focused on the, like the fluid

nature of this, because I, I think that you do have to have adaptive

definitions that can help us use this concept in different types of scenarios.

But one thing that Jeff and I were talking about was the bit of a

misuse of psychological safety and, you know, Jeff, you've framed it

as people playing the safety card.

Right.

And, and how that leads us into a different understanding of

what psychological safety is.

So maybe elaborate a bit Jeff on, on, you know, what your thoughts

are on that side of things.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Because I think as the term becomes more prevalent and it's being used more

in business and if there isn't as much understanding on what it actually means,

great that it's fluid, but do we all have a shared concept for it in our culture?

Whatever business culture we're operating in.

I feel like the word safety is the one that really gets pulled out.

Right.

I don't feel safe or something's happened in an interaction and

now you've made me not feel safe.

And so the safety card gets pulled.

I'm using that term like that, just to say, like, look, someone's identified

they're not feeling safe in the moment.

And I think what happens when we don't know how to navigate that situation

is the other individual or individuals don't know how to respond into that.

And so, I'm interested LaTonya, what, what are your thoughts on that?

Like how do we get the shared definition?

So that actually we know what we mean when we say that, right.

I don't feel safe right now cuz it's great that someone can navigate

that and to, to frame that for themselves, but are they framing it

in the right way as it's intended?

What's your thoughts on that?

Yeah.

You know, I, with those, I always come back to the, the root definition

and that I, I stated earlier, it's being able to speak up without

repercussions or punishment and being able to make mistakes.

Without you know, ridicule or punishment.

So those are the two that I always come back to.

The reason why I think you're seeing this kind of spread outta control

is yeah, things get misunderstood.

The reason why it also does apply to inclusion though, is, you know,

sometimes again, if someone is diverse on their team and they're different

from other people, just their inherent way of being is a mistake, right?

It's a mistaken way or the wrong way to do something.

Right.

And so that's why it applies to that.

But I see where you're going as this ends up being more applied, more and

more across the board, there's gonna be misunderstandings and people are

gonna think it's synonymous with like safe spaces, which is, you

know, it's a different thing, right?

It it's different from psychological safety.

Yeah.

Or even the you know, if you're working in a creative environment and there's

a critique of your work or something that isn't a critique of your person.

Right.

And so how do we, how do we understand that actually it's about who you are,

not the work that you've done as well.

Right?

How do we create environments where we can actually openly challenge each other

in a way that makes everyone feel good?

That doesn't mean actually I'm challenging you as a person.

Actually.

We're challenging ideas.

We're in challenging concepts that have to do with the work output we're doing.

And I feel like I've seen that from, especially from the executives that I

work with, where they're like, "geez, you know, this conversation's come up.

And I, now I don't feel, I don't feel safe as an executive to even

challenge someone or give feedback in a way that allows them to, to grow.

I'm not challenging who they are as an individual.

I'm actually just trying to understand how we can get their work to be of a different

quality or get them to show up, maybe in a different way in, in, in the office".

And so it's yeah, it's an interesting quagmire, isn't it?

It's when we don't have that shared understanding of the concept, how are we

starting to pull it apart in, in ways that actually don't allow us to center gravity

around what we actually mean by it?

That is so important.

And I, I actually just right before our, our time together,

I was coaching a team on this.

And it's, what's interesting is the theme has been, well, we know what these are.

We know what these term, what this term means, but we're just not, we're

just, we just haven't gotten where we want to as a team as this, and this

was like an executive team, right.

They're like, I think we're okay with our teams that report into us,

but the way we treat each other.

And so to, to your point, Jeff, there are.

You know, Amy Edmondson in her original research, she lists like

seven items that, you know, show that an environment's psychologically safe.

You know, I I've also listed these out, but it's, what's important is that you get

your team together to discuss this, right?

Like first have them reflect on what that means individually to them.

And then you define you create those rituals.

You create those norms as a team around that.

And that's where the common language I think really needs to come through.

I don't think it's as risky when it's out there, and someone's

like, okay, I feel unsafe.

Like they use the wrong term here.

And what, where it really gets dicey is when the team doesn't have common

language around it and they're going around, you know, abusing the

term and then it waters it down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

Yeah.

So that's, that brings me to a question Latonya around, like, how do you

actually start that conversation with a group of leaders to set that common

language and to set the expectation for what this would look like in

practice when you're working day to day, having conversations, delivering

project work, delivering feedback.

What's the starting point.

Because I, I find that that is the sticking point for a lot of people,

is that I think people are starting to welcome the psychological safety

idea, but they don't know how to do it.

Like how do you create psychological safety?

Like that's where it really gets hard.

Yeah.

So I, I think that's, it's, it's hard to do.

And I think that.

You first, you have to know what it is.

So read up on it, understand what it is, know and understand, help your

team know and understand what it is.

So first there's gotta be a common understanding around what

the heck this, this actually is.

Then after that, and we talk about this a lot, change coaches, it's all about

the structures and systems, right?

Having structures around how you bring psychological safety into

your everyday team interactions.

So what does that mean?

Again?

One of the activities I often have people do they tell they, they

tell us individually what makes them feel psychologically safe.

We collectively define that as a team, and then we create some sort of norm

where every meeting starts off with, you know, five minutes of setting the

space in psychological safety, right.

Or you could even do after every meeting setting, you know, asking

the team how safe they felt.

So you really have to create structures and systems.

They may not look exactly like the example I just gave you.

But the point is, is it's gotta be structured into how

you have meetings, right?

How you have interactions, all of those things.

If you're having one-on-one meetings, setting the space.

What's interesting is we talk about this stuff, leaders love it, they're like,

oh my gosh, this makes me feel good.

I think it's great.

But the first thing that they always challenge me on is like, my gosh, well,

LaTonya do you know how busy I am?

You know how busy we are trying to get our product out the door, all

these clients like, and you expect me to put this in my schedule?

Well, yeah, I mean that's but see if, if you are one of those people thinking that.

Then you're never gonna achieve psychological safety,

cuz that's what it takes.

It's beyond reading the book and like, oh my gosh, I did that today on my team.

It's creating the structures and systems around that.

It feels like people don't understand that that's what gets

them to great team performance, right?

Like, like if we can't calibrate as a team and untrust each other and feel that we

can bring everything we've got, how can we deliver our greatest creative work?

Right.

And I feel like leaders sometimes miss that bit, like all of that stuff that

feels like it's taking up too much time.

That's the thing that unleashes true genius in the team dynamic.

And almost like if we spent 80% of our time just building our trust

and connection with each other so that we did feel safe, that 20%

that we can then deliver on is gonna be the best 20% we've ever had.

And I just don't get why they just don't get that.

Right, right.

So there's, there's also like DEI research that and it kind of relates to

this adjacently, but it's like, people don't like being told what to do, but

it's almost like it's like creating just general rituals habits, have

whatever you wanna call it on your team.

So, I mean, it's a lot easier to go into a new team meeting and

know exactly what you're gonna do.

Right.

Like know exactly how that's gonna be laid out instead of going in and

everything's off schedule, no one's treating each other right, people aren't

talking, you know, someone's dominating.

And so you have to have structures in order to do that, but finding the

right balance of how rigid those are.

I think the other thing for me that's is, a difficulty here around

how receptive leaders are to this is this feeling that DEI is, is really hard to

establish and accomplish and to build into the way of being within an organization.

And I feel like there is a way for us to actually help leaders understand that

there's a style of psychological safety that actually already has inclusion and

belonging and diversity included in it.

So it's not like these two different things that they've suddenly got to now

structurally map into their organization.

It's actually one way of being that unlocks the types of things

that you were talking about, Jeff.

So LaTonya let's maybe step into like, I really love to understand

from your side of things and what you're seeing in the world right

now, how do we help leaders not see these things as two separate things?

Because as I'm imagining your position on it is, is that they're

actually quite meshed into each other.

So tell us your thoughts on that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is such a great topic, but I talk, I, we talk about this a lot, so there are.

There's this whole thing that I talk about in Leading Below The Surface called that

I call the dominant leadership standard.

And it's, it's basically the skills that you, we were taught in

business school that were taught in organizations are, are outdated, right?

The workplace has changed faster than leadership science has.

Right?

So, for example, you know, competition over collaboration, there

are still many organizations that are like, we gotta be competitive.

But, think about it, the number one thing employees want these days is belonging.

So, does competition really fit into that?

And we couldn't have said that even like five years ago.

Right.

And so, we have to challenge the traditional leadership archetypes

that were put out there.

Not only is it, did they not keep up with the world?

They don't keep up with our populations.

Like in Leading Below The Surface, I talk about how different types

of leaders lead differently.

So LGBTQ leaders might lead differently.

There's been some anecdotal research out there.

Black women there's been research on that, like how they might value

different things in leadership.

So those are just a couple of groups that I've, I've seen this with.

And so, how do you do this?

Well, you gotta reinvent yourself as a leader in how you see this.

That's like similar to saying , you know, leadership is separate

from diversity and inclusion.

It's all the same.

That's why I talk about below the surface leadership.

It's all there.

This is how we have to be every day.

And so, no, it's not separate actually.

It's the biggest, one of the biggest priorities.

When you look at it and you see great resignation research saying

belonging, caring teammates, supportive manager, top three things employees

want, and that's why they left.

Right.

Because they don't have those things.

Yeah.

And I think that, you know, that really ties into, Jeff, the other

thing we were talking about is like why psychological safety is so

prevalent as a concept right now.

And I think it has come about because of this shift that is

taking place where, and I mean, the, the pandemic helped us with that.

Obviously we know what's happened in the last two years, but like we've

really been pushed into not accepting the status quo anymore of leadership

types, ways of operating ways of being as workers in workplaces, where you have

the opportunity not to be in an office.

And the things that we need to be focusing on now as leaders have changed.

And so, you know, I, I just wonder, like, How are we going to scale this?

Like, how are we going to continue to you know, keep it present, keep the

momentum going and not just reverting back into the old ways of being.

I think like LaTonya says, that's the trajectory, like, a body

in motion tends to stay in motion.

That's the way that work is heading.

And I think it's not just because of the pandemic.

I think a lot of this trend, and I don't say that in a flippant way, but the, the

shift that we're starting to see has been happening for quite a long time.

And we could say, okay, look we had millennials coming into

the workforce, was it that?

We had the shift away from manufacturing economy into more of a creative economy

or, or around more about human capital.

So we're, it's about people coming together to do work in

different ways and having work means something differently now.

Right.

And it doesn't mean something different for everyone.

I think that's the other thing we.

To remember, as we still have lots of manufacturing structures out there that

still work in traditional hierarchies where you can come to work and get

bullied, and you just worry that you're gonna have a job by the end of the day.

And those places where we'd love to see more safety or more

inclusion and more belonging.

And I think those are the places where I am very passionate about seeing a

shift, but the dominant narrative that we hear around this, at least that I

pick up on is in the now traditional tech structures or the now traditional

corporate structures where that, where we're seeing more of this come through.

And it's, it's interesting what you said LaTonya about like, the the way work is

developing is going faster than the way OD or traditional practice is going.

So we've gotta catch up.

Don't we?

So the, the learning curve for leaders is exponential.

So if you're an executive or a leader, or just anyone supporting people in business

right now, you've got some work to do.

Absolutely.

And it's, it's interesting talking about OD and you know, there's also

data with business schools like, and the books that they're teaching

were the same books that were out.

And when I was in business school and I'm like, are you serious?

Like, this is again, we're just not caught up it's it's, uh, you know, once in a

while, I'll get invited to, to speak to different business students that are,

that are actually up with this stuff.

But it's, it's more the exception rather than the rule.

It's like rolling out the flat earth manual, isn't it?

Right, right, right.

Here's your MBA, you flat earthers.

Like things have shifted.

And so, so that's really interesting.

So those that are going through business school today, they're not

learning or unlearning what they need to do in order to step in.

And so are we, are we hitting a bit of a paradox, LaTonya?

Do we feel like, how are we gonna catch up?

What can we do to get leaders to, to go on the bootcamp?

Yeah.

You know, it's, it's hard because it's you, if you're listening to this podcast,

you might be a leader that's like, "yes!"

with everything we're saying.

It's funny, somebody emailed me and they were like, "after everything you

said, I was like, amen, hallelujah!"

Some of you are doing that.

I was thinking, visualizing this person in my head even though I

had even never met them, but I was really funny when she said that.

But you might be that person that's just like, "yes, this is exactly."

But you might work in an organization where the structures and and

systems are, are not in place.

And so what, what I would say is, just really become more coach

like, and just that's the that's one step everyone can take.

And what that means is, you know, listening, more than you talk and

you know, asking more powerful questions and just kind of connecting

with your employees and, and then using the coaching and what you

learn from that as your compass.

Like that is like the easiest step that you can take.

And that compass will lead you to a lot of the things we're saying.

Right.

The conversation, for example, you might have you know, I live in Chicago,

we had a huge like mass shooting, just what, 15 miles from my house.

And we have a lot of clients in this area.

So it was, it was a terrible thing.

And you know, it was just with leaders going in and just, just

saying, Hey, how are you feeling today?

Let's do a mental health check and, and just bringing those little things

in like, like that listening ear, that empathetic ear, but just starting

there and letting, just accepting the fact that your employees should be

informing your roadmap for a leader.

Again, your employees should be informing your roadmap as a leader, not you.

Because your role as a leader is to make them successful and

to remove the barriers for them.

So that's how you can get started.

Obviously continue going down the road, but if you could just start

there, that's gonna help you shift.

That sounds like something really important to land.

Hey, like your, your role as a leader is a little bit different now.

And if your role as a leader is to, is to support your

team to be the best it can be.

And that starts with listening.

What a, what a simple, yet difficult place to step into, but what a really

clear role for people just to know, that's what it's all about now.

That's what I've gotta do.

Yeah, I think it's really important that we've, we've isolated

that, and we've, we've identified that things have changed for leaders, but I

think conversely, I, I think that more than ever before employees and individuals

in organizations have a role to play as well to be creating psychological safety.

And it is something that you can do as an individual.

You don't have to wait for the structure to be there and the leadership to be there

in order to create psychological safety.

And in fact, you need to be an active participant, not a follower

in the endeavor of creating the conditions in the environment.

Now I'm not excusing leaders and I'm not excusing the responsibility of

organizations in making this change.

But I, I think that it is important for us to identify and to celebrate

the fact that employees have more power than ever before.

So you can take action in an organization, even though you might feel powerless.

So, I don't know.

What do you both think about that?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think there's, you know, we talk about the three different levels of power.

Like, you know, there's individual team, and organizational level, and everybody

has the individual level that they can make change and create change around.

And that might be you know, taking an article to your team, or that might

mean you know, just observing the team and saying, Hey, here's some things

that I'm seeing as I'm observing things that we could be doing better

just to hear each other better.

And it doesn't even have to be something that's critical.

Right.

It could just be like, Hey, I'm, you know, I've been thinking about

some of this stuff and how we can, how we can be more productive.

And some of these things we might not think about.

So yes, I agree.

I really like what you said before as well, around at

the end of a meeting or something.

How do we do, like, can we check in?

And I think that's a really strong space of action for everyone in a team to be

able to say, you know, how did I do today?

Did I, was I listening with curiosity?

Did I hold any judgment at any point during the time today?

And, and the more we show up to that, the safer.

Team dynamic can be because it creates the norms that LaTonya has

shared earlier and reinforces those.

And I, and I totally agree with you, Bev.

I think that it is in everyone's gift to show up to psychological safety and

equity and inclusion within business.

And I, I often feel like unless the leaders sort of shine, a light on that.

It kind of defers back to leadership.

Doesn't it?

And so LaTonya I really like your, your trinity of, of systems, right?

I've got the me, and then we've got the, we as a team and the us as the company.

And unless those three levels are in alignment, it.

Kind of feel a bit funky, right?

Like something could be out of whack in one of the three, which throws us

off either the safety space or the belonging space or the inclusion space.

Have you noticed that before LaTonya?

Is it, is it if one's outta whack?

We all, our orbit is off center?

So safety, you mean the safety, belonging, and inclusion?

Like if it's yeah.

Or within that, within that, system of the me, the we, of the

team and the us as the business can, can, if one of those is out of kilter.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, it's the individual, each individual kind of, you

know, rolls up to the team.

Right.

And is, is , an addition to that team.

Right.

And so a lot of times it's, you know, one leader even said to me recently,

they were like, well, if I try to ask every single person on my team, I can't

accommodate them, but it's not even that it's like asking them, hearing them.

And then from there, starting there to build a common team language.

Right.

And so usually that's out of sync in that we're not asking that

because we're afraid that what we get, we're not gonna be able to do.

And so don't be afraid of that.

Just that goes back to again, dominant leadership standard, where leaders have

to just solve everything on the spot.

You don't have to do that.

That's not, that's not even realistic anymore.

Like, I don't even know where that came from.

But it's yeah, just, just understanding that.

And then making the common language as a team, the organization

is the hardest thing to get.

So I always tell people, if you can get it at the team level, then you're

doing, you're doing something right.

Like you're 80% of the road there, the organization level is a lot harder.

Yeah.

And I think from what I've seen, a lot of companies or leaders are viewing

this as not necessarily part of their DNA and how they show up every day and

the way that they, they act and the way that they relate to each other.

But it's, it's more of this campaign style mindset still with, this is

something that we've gotta put on as a workshop or do as a thing.

And then it'll all be okay.

So I, I think the shift that we need to see happening is exactly what

you were just speaking to LaTonya is around this like, just focus in on how

you, how you are together as a team.

And thinking about that as part of your day to day habits and rituals

and the character of how you come together, less so about it being this

big thing that you've just gotta bolt on and, you know, fix your, you know,

what's wrong in your organization.

Yeah.

Focus on the things you can control.

Right.

Like the things in right in front of you.

It's so funny because a lot of times, ironically, we

focus like on the big thing.

And then we ignore the little things.

Right.

And it's like, okay, well, do you see that the house is burning down here,

but you're looking down the street.

Right.

And so it's, it's what is in front of me, what, first of all, what can I control?

What's in my span of control and you know, what do I wanna change?

And again, and I talk about this a lot as well and leading below surface, but it's

like starting with the individual level.

What can you change about yourself?

Like sometimes we have to change things about ourselves.

I don't like it either, but you might hate a job.

You gotta change.

You gotta change either the situation.

I mean, I think that is an old saying, I think it was Maya Angelou change

the situation or change the way you think there's you got two roads,

what you're gonna do, you know?

And so you have to change the way you think about it or one of those two.

And if you are a team, you, you actually, there's a, what's really

cool about teams is collectively you can do whatever you want.

You can make that team.

You know, as wonderful as you want and as engaging as you want.

And a lot of times people leave that out.

Like they're expecting someone to do it for them, but guess what

you are part of this team, you're part of this collective piece.

And so just keep that in mind.

And, and that's where a lot of like, even psychological safety when it

first was kind of amplified by Google and they started talking about this.

It's it's really about it's really a team concept, right?

It's not an individual concept.

It's a team concept.

So applying these to your team, again, thinking about it, like first on the

individual level, what's in your span control there and then the team level,

and what's in your span of control.

Awesome.

Jeff, last thoughts, questions, musings on the topic.

I'm struck by what we were just talking

about around on the team level.

And I think if what what's percolating in my mind now is how do we start to

see that sense of, of almost safety and creative unleashing as one thing within

a team dynamic and LaTonya I'm curious about the connection there, cuz you

mentioned Google and I believe that the Google research around psychological

safety was a little bit about how do we collaborate with the team to get

our best ideas and innovation out?

Do you feel like there's a bridge that we can start to build with leaders around

like when we can create these norms of safety in our business at the team level,

we can unleash new forms of potential and innovation within the business

that's really beneficial for everybody.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I don't know if this answers your question, but I think.

One of the, one of the nuggets here that I'll share is like, when you ask people

about their organizational culture and what they like about the culture and

what they don't like about the culture, it's really about the team, right.

They're really describing what they're seeing in their

team on a day to day basis.

They're not describing what, like all these things they don't see.

I mean, if it's things like values and things on the website,

whatever, but it's usually about their day to day interactions.

Like I talked about manager, caring teammates.

And so, absolutely.

I mean, if you are with that you know, if you're asking employees,

you know, if they feel like they, they can be creative at work.

And it, and they're not feeling that way in their team.

They're not, they're definitely not gonna feel that way about their organization.

So yeah.

I mean, this is, this is where this, this is where it happens, right.

This is where you have to create that safe environment or that psychologically

safe environment, so people can do this so they can make mistakes.

So, you know, and some, some companies and even say, I don't

even like the word mistakes.

Okay, so they can be creative, you know, just take that outta your vocabulary.

But yeah, absolutely.

I mean, that's teams are where the eggs hatch, right?

That's, that's where everything happens.

Yeah.

And we, I mean at Within we've always said that we think that

work should be a place where people love who they are and what they do.

And I think to me that really sort of encompasses the idea

of psychological safety.

Like you can come here, you can be your 100% true human being beautiful self

and come and do something that you are passionate about and get to unleash

the potential that's inside of you.

And that should apply to any company.

It should be the place, you know, work should be something that we enjoy doing.

And I, I feel like the trend that we talked about earlier around work changing

and leadership changing, and people changing means that if we start to see

work differently and the team structure differently, I think from an executive

who cares about their business growing, to an individual who just wants to do

a great job, all of those things can really come together in a powerful way.

And I, and I do wonder sometimes if you know, these notions of , the, the phrasing

around things like psychological safety kind of diminishes the power of that idea.

To our earlier point, it's it becomes a label that's washed over

something as opposed to just like, can we come here and be who we are

and do a great, do a great job.

That's what we should all strive for.

Absolutely.

Fabulous.

Well, on that note, we are gonna start wrapping it up.

Thank you, LaTonya we usually end our conversations with a

lightning round to get to know our guests a little bit better.

Oh, that's right.

I'm gonna spring this on you.

If you, if you really don't wanna do this.

You don't have to do it.

Talk about psychological safety.

Just so everybody knows.

I was not, I was not told this.

So if I'm clumsy, that's why, blame Jeff

. Bev Attfield: We did not

And you you know, to feel like you could take a risk in this moment, or

maybe we did, maybe this is a, you know, this will be a good test of whether

there's psychological safety here.

So how about it?

Are you keen for the lightning round?

Sure.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's do it.

All right, here we go.

What three words would you use to describe the workplace culture you'd like to lead?

Oh gosh.

Empathetic of course psychologically safe and a third would be creative.

Cool.

Cool.

What three words would you use to define the future of work?

Complex.

Emotional and diverse.

Okay.

Which one quality is your superpower or strength?

I'm a great listener.

I get that a lot.

And which quality is your area of development or stretch?

I would say that.

Okay.

I would say saying no to things that are like, just emphatically saying no to

things that are clearly against my values.

That would be an area that I need to just don't even feel bad anymore.

Just no.

And just have this sense of just like, yes, I did that.

Yeah.

Okay.

What is your most treasured spot outside of work?

Oh, gosh, I would say anywhere in, in the woods.

Probably with some mountains we love big Sur, so it's a place in California.

So my partner's from there.

Yeah.

So that's where, that's where I would say.

Yeah, just being out there being with nature, hiking.

Beautiful.

I just drove past there on my way down to San Diego gorgeous part of the world.

Is there a person or brand you'd like to shine a light on today?

Yeah, I mean, I, I in memory, and I talk about some of

you that probably heard me speak.

I talk about my grandma Ruthie a lot.

And you know, this week, we launched our Change Coach's

website and it's just so different.

And it's, I'm just so amazed by what we've been able to do.

And it's, it's all attributed to her.

She kind of, she kind of taught me how to lead below the surface.

And then, you know, I was always look at her and I'm like, what

is wrong with these people?

Like, grandma, you need to be leading these organizations,

like what's up with these people.

And so, yes, I always wanna shine a light on her.

Beautiful.

Last question.

If you had to pick one song that represented who you are

as a leader, what would it be?

And can you sing it for us now?

You don't have to do the singing part.

Okay.

Yeah, so there, I would say there is a song that I kind of liked.

And I can't remember his last name, but it's it's called, Made A Way.

And his name, his, his first name is Bobby, and now I'm forgetting

his last name, but he's great.

So I, I think Emily's looking it up for me, but he also...

Bobby Sessions.

Bobby Sessions.

Yeah.

So he's great.

So I love that song and it's all about making a way paving the way forward.

Yeah, like making it happen, which is what we have to do, right?

Like you have to make it happen.

That's spot on for our conversation today.

And yeah, just thank you for rising to the challenge of

the lightning round LaTonya.

I did.

I did.

Okay.

Right.

You were great.

Eight outta 10, right?

Yeah.

There's no scoring, but yeah.

Thank you for the help too.

Emily, like that was a big save.

It was like a lifeline I can call.

I got you.

There's always gotta be a little bit of room

for stretch and improvement.

Right.

So, right.

Yeah.

Very psychologically safe crew here today.

So

Yeah , we are really embracing accepting each

other, failing making mistakes,

lots of rooms for growth.

And Mercury in retrograde

Oh, no.

Well, thanks so much LaTonya and thanks Jeff.

For joining us.

In this conversation and thanks for listening everyone.

We hope you've enjoyed learning with us about the work that LaTonya

is doing and the importance of psychological safety and more

importantly, it's connection into DEI.

And certainly encourage you to grab LaTonya's book, Leading

Below The Surface, check out the new Change Coaches website.

I was just on there this morning and it's a super duper beautiful

resource and place to go.

And if you would like to get in touch with LaTonya I'm sure that

all of her contact deets are on that website for you to go check out.

So tune into our podcast every other week for more episodes on what's

happening in the culture and leadership space, what's on the minds of leaders

like LaTonya who are committed to change in our community and other

future work content that you crave.

Reimagining Work From Within is available wherever you listen to your podcasts.

So reach out, keep listening and thanks so much for being here today.

Thank you Bev.

Thanks Bev.

Great job.