What if you don't have to be “good at art” to work creatively as a therapist?

In this week’s episode of the Good Enough Counsellors podcast, I’m joined by counsellor, developer and all-round creative thinker Yasmin Shaheen-Zaffar to talk about using creativity in therapy sessions, both online and face to face.

Yasmin is one of those people who is always creating ideas, tools and resources, and we explore how her neurodivergence, technical background and passion for emotional regulation have shaped the way she works with clients.

We talk about:

• why many therapists don’t think of themselves as creative
• how creative approaches can help clients express themselves differently
• using creative tools in online sessions without it feeling clunky or awkward
• emotional regulation, rejection sensitivity and neurodivergence
• the fear therapists often have around visibility and being judged
• how creativity can make psycho-education feel more accessible and engaging
• why playful doesn’t have to mean childish
• and why some ideas need time to develop and “simmer”

Yasmin also shares some of the interactive resources she’s developed for therapists and clients, including her “Sandwich of Capacity” tool inspired by the Window of Tolerance.

You can find out more about Yasmin and use her resources HERE

And if you’d like support growing your own private practice, you can find out more about my webinars and training HERE

Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE

Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE

You can also find me here:

The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group

Josephine Hughes on Facebook

Josephine Hughes on YouTube

My website: josephinehughes.com

Keywords: creativity in therapy, neurodivergent counselling techniques, creative tools for therapists, online therapy resources, therapy techniques for neurodivergent clients, integrating creativity in sessions, therapist visibility and marketing, building a creative practice, resources for therapists, psychological tools for emotional regulation, playful therapy activities, using art in counseling, overcoming therapist self-doubt

The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.

Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.

I think most of us have been traumatized by, like, art at school, you know, that art meant being good at drawing or drawing an apple or something that looked real life.

And that is not creativity.

I think creativity is finding solutions to challenges, to problems, a way of releasing for me, most definitely emotion.

If I can't be creative, it's almost like a tap.

It makes me feel so much better.

Welcome to Good Enough Counsellors, the podcast for growing a private practice without the pressure to be perfect.

I'm Josephine Hughes, counsellor and creator of Therapy Growth Group, helping you get the clients you want and create the practice of your dreams.

This week I'm joined by Yasmin, who I worked with a few years ago now when she developed creative tools for counsellors and she was looking for ways to share them.

What stood out to me then and still does now, is just how naturally Yasmin blends creativity, her.

Her technical skills and therapy altogether.

She's one of the most creative people I've had the pleasure to work with and she's someone who is always creating new ways of working with clients.

But like many of us, Yasmin is someone who's more motivated by working with clients than about shouting about it and about her wonderful resources.

So I really wanted to introduce you to her so that you can hear more about what she offers.

She's someone who's neurodivergent, and so Yasmin brings a really different way of thinking to her work.

So today we're going to be talking about what it really looks like to work creatively with clients and how creativity benefits us all.

Despite some of the hesitations we might have about how creative we are, Yasmin's creative tools for working with clients are something that you can use to support you in your online work when you where being behind the screen can feel limiting if you want to use creative expression.

But equally, you can also use her tools in face to face sessions and she's going to tell us about that too.

Welcome, Yasmin.

It's nice to have you here.

Oh, thank you so much for inviting me, Josephine.

Oh, it's lovely to see you again.

And would you like to start by saying a little bit about yourself and how creativity became part of your work?

Yeah.

So my name is Yasmin Shaheen Zafa.

I would describe myself as a neurodivergent counselor who uses creative expression in her sessions.

I'm also founder of a company called watotoplay and we create creative resources.

When I say we, the royal we me I create.

Yeah, I create.

So I've always used.

So as you correctly said, I'm neurodivergent, diagnosed dyslexic and have dyspraxia and later down my journey, ADHD and autistics.

ADHD.

I've also got a background in development for over 20 years using creativity.

It didn't occur to me not to.

And that was right from my training.

So.

Yeah, so when you said that you worked with me and that was just after.

Was it before the pandemic or after?

No, it was, it was, it was sort of year or two in.

Yeah.

But it was still felt like the pandemic then.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember you showing me a picture because you.

A photo of your lovely room because you've got your room all set up, hadn't you, for working with children.

Absolutely beautiful room.

And then I think we almost immediately went into lockdown, didn't we?

Yeah.

And you had this lovely room that was just not.

You weren't able to use it at that point, were you?

Oh goodness ye.

Yeah.

And I just want to sort of just clarify.

I don't actually work with children.

No.

I work with adults, but.

Yeah.

Because of the room it looks like it works with.

Yeah.

But I work with adults in a creative way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what happened?

The pandemic.

Pandemic happened and prior to that it was on my training.

You've heard of the empty chair technique?

The gestalt empty chair technique?

Yeah.

I think it's a fascinating, amazing technique.

But I was working with clients and some of the comments I got, and I mean it is quite true, like asking someone to talk to empty chairs a bit can freak people out and be a bit weird and intimidating.

Yeah.

So that my first resource, it was the empty chair cards.

So I just created some cards where it was just a PDF on Canva to begin with and I created some cards with different chairs and different backgrounds and I explored with the clients what chair they would pick if they were bringing a situation or wanted to explore something.

And then we explored like the chair and the background and would they change the background?

Would they change the size of the chair?

And I think that was my first creative like resource.

Well, it was.

And it sort of happened accidentally because it just made sense to me for the way I was working with that particular client at that time.

Yeah, yeah.

And so that was that.

That was the beginning, wasn't it?

So what do you think creativity gives you that talking alone?

It Gives me a way of expressing and, you know, I think this is the really important part, being neurodivergent.

It's like it sort of.

The diagnosis gave me permission to go.

Actually, there's a reason for me, I get confused with a lot of words.

Audio.

Yeah.

So talking can feel quite confusing or listening.

And I think that's the dyslexia as well thrown in there.

Yeah.

And creativity is really finding solutions to problems.

That's what creativity means to me.

And it's a different way.

There's no one set way for everyone.

And I think this is really, really, really important.

Creativity means different things to different people.

I remember a time where I used to think, oh, gosh, I'm not creative.

Yeah.

I felt like that in the past as well.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, all the work that you do, Josephine, that's creative.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the support that you offer therapists.

And I think.

I actually think therapists are really creative because they're sitting with people in the room and they're, you know, they're co creating with the client, aren't they?

But we don't tend to think of that as creativity, do we?

But, you know.

Yeah.

I think most of us have been traumatized by like gcs.

Well, art at school, you know.

Yeah.

That art meant being good at drawing or drawing an apple or something that looked real life.

Yeah.

And that is not creativity.

So how would you define creativity?

I think creativity is finding solutions to challenges, to problems, a way of releasing for me, most definitely emotion.

If I can't be creative, it's almost like a tap.

It makes me feel so much better.

Whether that's taking a walk and picking up some leaves and putting a Mandela outside and just leaving it there or some stones on a beach and just leaving them there or coming in writing.

I do a lot of different types of creativity.

You know, it's everywhere we look.

Creativity exists.

Yeah.

I think sometimes we can just get so bogged down with worry, you know, doing the things of paying the bills and we forget about creativity and the joy it can bring.

Absolutely, yeah.

So.

So do you think that.

Do you hear therapists saying things like,.

I'm not creative or this is going.

To feel awkward, that sort of thing?

I. I think, you know, I did on one of the platforms recently, sort of a monthly.

I'm doing a series on the different tools on my creative platform.

Yeah.

And some of the questions were, what do you do with clients that.

Who may not feel that they're creative or not open to.

Yeah.

What do you do?

Well, I think it's always important to check in.

And what I do is I contract at the start of therapy.

I think it's really important to understand what ways clients would be more open to receiving, say, psycho education, how they learn, if they've got any learning differences.

And you're sort of then building a sort of a plan, aren't you?

Yeah.

By discussing it with them and.

Yeah, yeah.

Have you found that clients are resistant to working creatively?

Some can be.

I don't actually mention, oh, we're going to work creatively.

Yeah.

But at the start, when I'm contracting, I always say I'm really interested on what's going to work for you.

Yeah.

You know, some people might like text worksheets.

And my creative connections platform isn't saying this is the only way.

Yeah.

It's all it's doing is giving choice.

And no neurodivergent person is the same.

Yeah.

So I'm not going to sit here and go, oh, mine's ADHD friendly at all.

Yeah.

What I'm saying is here's a different way of working.

It may work for some people.

It's playful.

It's not gaming.

And there is a very clear difference between gaming and having psycho, educational, playful resources.

Yeah.

For me, gaming is about retention.

I don't want people to be on there all the time.

I want them.

It's for reflection, for learning, and then take that learning and put it into real life.

So with your creative platform, then, Yasmin, this big sort of good chance to just ask you about it.

Is it aimed at clients or is it aimed at therapists?

Or is it both?

It's both.

I actually built it from clinical need.

Yeah.

Because during the pandemic, we all went online.

I was already exploring online platforms for video conferencing before that happened.

Yeah.

But what I couldn't use my room.

My.

That nice picture, that beautiful picture that you saw.

So I was like.

And to me, having a technical tech and development background.

Oh, come on.

I'm not gonna sit in a therapy session and hold up a card.

You know, that's just not gonna work for me.

And it.

For me, you know, I'm sure for some people it was fine, but for me, with a tech background, I was like, I'm sure there must be a better way of doing this.

Yeah.

And it.

You know, I also wanted to offer choice, which I've said previously.

You know, I'm very much a visual person.

A lot of my clients that.

Who I see, either visual, but also Josephine.

There's something about processing information and, you know, scrolling, clicking, moving things on the screen of when you're taking in information and being able to draw a picture, pull out different cards, sort of interact.

With it really, rather than just sort of be a passive recipient.

Yeah, yeah.

So getting back to your question, it sports practitioners by reducing overwhelm, saving time, looking for resources.

I've got over a hundred resources on there now.

Yeah.

And it can help therapists feel more effective in the room.

You know, it can support overwhelm of like I can never find anything on my desktop.

Yep.

You know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there's that aspect, but then there's the client facing aspect as well.

For me, and this is how I work.

Psycho education is really big in sessions.

I'm not entirely a person centered practitioner.

No.

So I am a little more directive.

So it's for both, I would say,.

For clients as well as therapists.

So I mean, would you envisage that, say, clients might have access to the platform and be able to sort of go away and play with things?

Yeah.

At the moment there's different versions of it.

So I built the platform about five years ago and then a local charity started using my platform.

Yeah.

And I think having a development background, I'm very used to being behind the scenes.

People don't see you when you build databases and when you build stuff and, you know, you give it to them, if anything, they only contact you when things go wrong.

Yeah.

Or they want changes.

So it's quite safe.

So they've been on the A version of the platform for the past five years.

They're NHS funded, so it's really given.

The platform a good sort of like test.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, touch wood.

It's never crashed and, you know, that used to be my worry because it's a crisis center, it's open 24 7.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's robust.

There's that part of it.

So I got busy with that.

And also I think me as a person, I've grown in confidence over the past five years.

I was very much not wanting to be seen as well, which I think.

Is a very sort of like normal thing for therapists, really.

I mean, it's, you know, we didn't come into this to sort of stand on a stage.

Yeah.

I mean, we did it because we want to help people.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think, I think visibility is a really big fear for many therapists, actually.

What's helped you to feel more confident, do you think?

Well, I started off with Your coaching, didn't I, years ago, which was fantastic.

Stick.

Yeah.

And that really helped me to get to one stage.

Yeah.

And then I had the platform and now I want to help more people, Josephine.

Yeah.

That simple.

Yeah.

And I think that's it, because it's sort of like when you have a sort of purpose that's bigger than yourself somehow, then some of your fears around visibility, it's not that they go away because you could still feel frightened, but actually helping people is more important than your fears.

But that's the way I've discovered it to be, anyway.

And you end up doing all sorts of things, don't you, where you think, oh, gosh, I've never expected myself to do this.

But you do it because you want to reach more people, I think.

Yeah.

More.

And it's.

For me, it's about impact as well.

I think many of us who become therapists want to genuinely make a difference to people's lives.

We want to help and we want.

To have that impact that Yasmin is talking about.

But it can feel really frustrating when you've got that desire but you haven't got the clients.

Many therapists say to me, I want to be a counsellor, not a business owner.

And honestly, I completely understand that feeling.

But listening to Yasmin has reminded me that creativity exists in all of us.

It's not just about art materials or activities in the therapy room.

Creativity can also show up in how we connect with and how we reach out to our potential clients.

So just like we say that clients have the answers within themselves, I think the same can be true of you.

As you're building your practice, you often know more than you realise and sometimes you just need support to draw it out and the confidence to apply it.

And that's what I can help you with.

My training.

I've recently launched a set of webinars designed to help therapists attract clients in ways that feel natural and true to them.

So check out JosephineHughes as me training.

I'll put that link in the show notes because it's a little bit difficult to get.

So I hope to see you on one of those webinars.

And now back to Yasmin.

So I've got this platform form, so at the moment I'm going to.

I'm launching it in stages to the therapist community.

Yeah.

And this will give me sort of what resources are helpful.

I can adjust them.

I've got a sand tray that is a 2D sun tray.

It's not a 3D immersive yeah, experience.

I've got over 100 resources.

So just to, to clarify, because obviously I've seen it before.

So this would be something that, you know, people would be on a, on a call and they'd be able to just access it and pull it up and.

Yeah, Screen share.

I run a program called Glad We Talked which uses a lot of the tools and everything's Polyvagal informed.

So my Glad We Talk program is a five part program using some of these tools like the Rejection sensitivity stack, the Sandwich of Capacity, for example.

It's a remake of the Window of Tolerance.

Yeah, yeah.

So these tools, they support kinesthetic learning.

Yeah.

And they make therapeutic ideas more accessible.

Because you've done an awful lot, haven't you?

Because I mean, when I first met you just set up the let's Stop Shouting day and you did a lot of sort of resources around helping people to stop shouting.

Yeah, that's an awareness day supporting nonviolent communication.

So that still happens in November.

And then I developed Polyvagal Teen.

That's my Polyvagal cards for teenagers and families.

Yeah.

So then I developed Glad We Talk programs.

Yeah.

Then I've also got Neurosloth Academy.

Yes.

So the neuroslofts are nine, because I do like writing and being creative.

So they're nine neuroslops who used to live in the Amazon jungle but they've now moved to the west of Ireland and they've got all their friends who go to Neurosloth Academy and they've got all different traits.

So I've got some trait cards that are on the platform so people can explore different neurodivergent traits through them.

It's just a fantastic amount of resources.

Is there anything where you've sort of.

Thought to yourself, because I know you're.

Just always creating, you know, with we've talked about in the past, you know, have an idea and you'll turn it into an idea.

Have you found that certain things work a lot better than you expected?

And conversely other things where you've sort of done it and just thought, no, that's bombed, I won't bother with that.

I think, Josephine, like I have this diagram and I think, is it capitalist marketing will say to you, create one product and it's almost like this pyramid.

Focus on it, don't think of anything else and sell, sell, sell.

That's not you at all though, is it?

No, mine looks more like this.

Yeah.

Right.

So there's number of products but also product creativity isn't just like on demand.

Yeah.

You know, even like with my stories I've written, it's been about four, five, four years, and I'll go back and refine them and tweak them.

And it's only now I've been last year, end of last year, talking to agents.

So I think, you know, every single thing I've created, I've gone back to.

Yeah.

So it's not.

I don't think it's as simple as, like, you create something and just put it out to the world.

Maybe for some people, but that doesn't really work for me.

And some people could say, oh, it's procrastination.

I think creativity ideas have to sit.

I don't think so.

No, I don't think so.

Don't you think so?

Or simmer.

That's procrastination.

Oh, yeah, exactly.

No, but I do agree.

Yeah.

Some ideas do have to sit.

And I think, you know, we can have the idea.

And I think sometimes, I don't know about you, but I think sometimes, you know, temptation, if you're adhd, is obviously you get a dopamine hit from doing something new and the temptation is to rush off and do this new thing because it's a new idea and it's exciting.

And certainly for me, I've had to learn to rein that in to a certain extent and to maybe store the idea somewhere so I haven't lost it.

But sometimes what I find, I don't know, if you find this, I'll have an idea and then I'll come back to it later.

And actually, because I've sat on it, it's perhaps something that I decide not to do in the end because it probably doesn't fit.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I've had some of those and we can go into a lot of shame as well.

But for me, it's just part of my process.

I can put up websites within a few hours.

Yeah, right.

I can buy the domain, trademark it, put it up for an hour in a few hours.

Yeah.

And it doesn't cost me anything apart from my time and maybe the domain name, because I have like nearly 200 websites for various people.

Yeah.

So.

So I used to go in a lot of.

Into a lot of shame, you know, but now I don't because that's just my process.

Yeah.

So.

And there are things I've decided, actually I don't want to do that.

Life's too short to be stuck doing things that you don't.

Don't want to do.

Yeah.

And I mean that.

That's almost sort of like a something they say, isn't it?

It's this idea of fail fast, so try something out and if it doesn't work, just move on.

And in the meantime, you are maybe scratching that itch that says, come on, do it, do it, do it.

Yeah, I mean, you might.

A few years later, I remember I'm part of this script writing group and hearing stories of really famous scripts that had been sat in someone's drawer for 20 years.

Really?

Yeah.

And I used to think, like years ago, how could that be possible?

But, yeah, it is.

And it can be totally.

Because you're sort of like, you have you got sort of.

Well, you said you've got 200 websites.

You've got quite a few projects.

My own.

Other people's projects.

Yeah, my own.

I've got, you know, I. I mean, I collect domain names, like handbags.

That.

Yeah, that is the truth, actually.

And then I don't want to let them go because I've had an idea and I've bought a domain name.

Yeah.

But I'm sure there must be other people like me.

I'm sure there are.

I mean, to be honest, my husband's always buying their name.

Domain name.

Yeah.

And I was thinking the other day, so, you know, I've sort of got one idea that sat there for a while.

I haven't done anything with it.

And then you can go full circle as well, can't you?

And you go back to an old idea.

So I went back to that old idea again.

Oh, shall I develop that again?

It just comes.

It comes and goes.

So.

So Yasmin, just sort of taking the conversation back to.

So it's sort of relevant for people.

Who are actually working with clients as opposed to creating resources.

What would be sort of one simple activity that a therapist could try in an online session?

In an online session.

The window of tolerance.

So I have a. I think, especially for so many people that experiencing burnout, neurodivergent burnout, autistic burnout, whether neurodivergent or not, just like life burnout through just having these constant messages, like if you just take social media, one aspect of it, constant notifications, etc, and what I used to hear clients say is, oh, but I've been doing this all my life.

Right.

You know, and why is it happening now when they've sort of burnt out?

Yeah.

So I like.

I use the window tolerance, so a lot.

And I've got my own version reimagined.

The sandwich of capacity.

Yeah.

So it's basically a sandwich and it shows.

So all my resources are interactive.

So you move this slider and the sandwich gets squashed.

Yeah.

So you see like how there's less capacity.

Yeah.

In the middle.

Yeah.

So it's a really sort of lovely visual way of people getting an idea as to how situations might be affecting them.

Because it's squishing.

Yeah, Squishing it down.

Yeah.

And I.

That's really simple.

Yeah.

But it's very visual, isn't it?

And that probably really helps people.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, you know, I totally appreciate.

Not everyone is visual and all my resources can be used on the iPad as well.

They're all touch screen and I think.

I'd misunderstood you, actually.

So this would be sort of like if you were in a face to face session with some someone, you'd have your tablet with you and then you could just say to them, look, here we go.

So show it to them and then let them have a play and talk about what's coming up for them as they're doing it.

Yeah.

So you can either.

If you're working online, I always prefer to use my desktop.

But if you're working face to face on a tablet, I mean, on a.

Tablet, what tends to shift for clients when you bring something creative in it?

It's not so much it gives them another way, permission almost of doing it another way, which might not necessarily be like a PDF or a printout or a tick box exercise.

Yeah.

And just that act of doing it a different way.

Maybe a more playful.

I got a really nice review about my sandwich of capacity, for example.

I was told that it was playful but not childish.

Yeah.

So it was playful.

But then they could download the notes, put them into notes and type it.

Type sort of more reflections into it.

Yeah.

So a lot of my resources are probably a bit playful.

Yeah.

And just allowing people to explore.

Yeah.

And almost giving permission.

It's okay to do things differently as well.

Yeah.

So do you.

Do you tend to work a lot with some neurodivergent clients?

Are those the sort of people that you attract?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I know many neurotypical people in my circle and nearly all my clients I work with mixed heritage, multi faith and neurodivergent clients, so.

And I sort of specialize.

Yeah.

I would say rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, rsd.

Yeah.

And emotional regulation.

So I guess my clients find me because I do disclose.

Neurodivergent.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you think the RSD contributes to the visibility stuff that we Were talking about.

Yeah.

Because to be seen, you know, you're risking being rejected.

Yeah, yeah, I think it massively does.

And it's.

I think it's also about intimacy because to be seen, it's quite intimate.

And there's more ways of being rejected than ever these days.

Do you know?

Yeah, it's a good point.

You know, this is one of the things I do teach as one of the exercises if we just.

I'm old enough to remember, you know, before the iPhones came out.

Yeah.

So if you just think back, how many ways in.

In an hour, in a day, could we be rejected or we be perceived to be rejected.

Yeah.

Whereas now with going online and all the access to social media that we've got.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, like someone commenting or not commenting or sending a message or not sending a message, reading it, not replying it.

This is all, you know, our nervous system constantly.

When our nervous systems are colliding into each other.

So.

And I think it was harder for me to sort of make myself seen in amongst the counseling community.

There's something about being judged by other therapists.

Yeah, totally, totally.

That I think really worries a lot of us.

It's sort of like you can quite happily go out to the general public, but when it's members of your own profession, I think because we hold our professional standards so dearly and we quite ethically, that to receive that judgment from other therapists feels so hard, I think.

Really hard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What were you going to say?

Sorry, No, I was going to.

Exactly.

You've taken the words out my mouth.

That word judged, feeling judged, not being good enough.

What are they going to think?

Do you know?

Do you think they're going to think I'm showing off because I've done all this?

So, yeah, lots of thoughts.

So for me, it has been easier to sort of.

And Also, I've had 20 years, more or less, of working behind the scenes.

Yeah.

And I think the other thing is, though, is that knowing as I do many therapists like myself, who just completely not techie at all, that actually the skill that you bring is.

Is actually really valuable to the rest of the profession because like you say, you can just knock up a website in a few hours and, you know, you do your squishy sandwich of capacity thing, you know, that would.

That wouldn't be able to do that in a month of Sundays.

It's just.

No, I couldn't do something like that.

So to have a resource and to have the skills that you've got, I think is a really lovely sort of valuable thing for the rest of the profession.

So, hopefully by getting the podcast out, you know, it will introduce you to other people who might really like to use the resources that you've got to.

To help clients.

So, yeah, I was gonna say, Yasmin,.

So what's the best way for people to find out about you?

And I'll, you know, I'll pop your website into the.

Into the show notes, my CC toolkit.

So I've got a couple of endings, but the one I'm gonna bring out to therapists is dot Online.

Yeah.

And CC stands for Creative Connections, because through creativity, we're creating connections.

I'm also on Facebook so people can follow me and I'm always updating.

They can join my mailing list also.

So lots of ways.

Yeah.

And I've been working on visibility more.

So, yeah, look, here you are on the podcast.

So.

Yeah, thanks so much.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good sort of sign that you've.

You know, it.

I do think it is hard to be visible and, you know, it's taking it step by step, isn't it?

And you've taken another step today because, like you say, it's.

You want.

You want people to have that impact with your resources and for it to reach for them, to reach more people and be able to make our sessions, I suppose, multifaceted or more maybe colorful, whereas before, perhaps they were a bit black and white.

So, you know, bringing your creativity in.

Well, Yasmin, thank you so much for coming along and sharing all about your tool.

And I'll make sure that I'll put that in the show notes for anybody who didn't quite catch where to find you.

So it'll be there in the show notes.

Well, thanks so much for coming along, Yasmin.

It's been great.

Catch up and find out how you can.

Thank you for.

And great to see you again, Jasmine.

Yeah, it is.

It's really nice.

Thanks for listening.

Do come and join my Facebook community.

Good enough.

Counsellors.

And for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please Visit my website, JosephineHughes.com if you found this episode helpful, I'd love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app.

And in closing, I'd love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream.

I really believe you can do it.