Title: Striking a Chord for the Planet: Music's Journey to Sustainability

Story:

Welcome to an exciting episode of the Sustainability Solved Podcast, where our spotlight falls on an industry renowned for creativity and innovation: the music industry. The music industry has the power and influence to make huge strides in the environmental movement, but who is responsible for leading the change?

Our guests today have certainly struck a chord in the music industry for their leadership in sustainability: Lewis Jamieson, co-founder of Music Declares Emergency (MDE) and Hannah Cox, founder of Better Not Stop and author of the “More Than Music” report on sustainability at music festivals.

Together we explore how the music industry, artists, labels, fans, and governments hold key roles in steering the industry towards a more eco-conscious path.

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Highlights: · Lewis sheds light on the motivations behind Music Declares Emergency, an initiative uniting artists, labels, and fans to address climate challenges. · Hannah, founder of Better Not Stop, discusses the “More Than Music” report on sustainability at music festivals. She explains her inspiration and the challenges music festivals face in adopting sustainable practices. · Lewis and Hannah discuss Coldplay’s groundbreaking eco-friendly world tour. They highlight the significance of Coldplay’s efforts in advancing discussion around sustainability in the music industry.

· The conversation delves into the idea of virtual concerts as a potential solution to reduce carbon emissions.

· Lewis candidly discusses the challenges of securing funding for climate-related initiatives in the music industry. He emphasises the lack of commitment to sustainable causes.

· Music festivals often take place in remote areas, posing challenges for government-driven public transport improvements. Lewis and Hannah discuss solutions to these challenges.

· Sustainability is more than just a cost: Hannah highlights the advantages of adopting sustainable frameworks and what to include.

· Spotlight on trailblazers making a significant impact on sustainability within the music industry like EarthPercent, Vision 2025, and Blue Dot Festival.

· Uncover the concept of “Climate Shadow”, revealing that individual actions extend beyond personal consumer choices.

Resources: Music Declares Emergency Better Not Stop More Than Music Report Coldplay’s eco-friendly tour Kendall Calling Festival EarthPercent Vision 2025 Green Events Code Blue Dot Festival

Mentioned in this episode:

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(-16 LUFS)SS Music Business

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

artists, music industry, festival, people, music festivals, change, music, climate, sustainability, talking, business, tour, work, lewis, coldplay, good, industry, audience, conversation, musicians

SPEAKERS

Hannah Cox, Lewis Jamieson, Will Richardson

Well, he wasn't just Fay Milton to give everyone a credit. Okay, there was about 14 of us, I think, in the initial phase, that encompass people who run record labels, artists, DJs people who worked within the industry, across the industries across the industry kind of idea. The impetus behind it was, well, twofold, really. One was that all the people in the room had in various ways been scratching their head and wondering why music hadn't engaged with the climate issue in the way that it did engage with other social issues, historically, right back to, you know, of Elvis terrorising American parents in the early 50s. You know, that kind of idea of music being the spear point of cultural change alongside other creative industries. So that that was one of the reasons and then the spark maybe that brought us together was if I'm absolutely honest extinction rebellions activities, in late 218 and early 219, in London in particular, which kind of go a focal point to the idea that you could do something demonstrative around climate and actually affect the media agenda and affect the public perception of it. So that was the kind of genesis of it. And when we did get into the room, we were very aware of of the reasons why the answer to our first question, you know, why isn't music engaging with us? We kind of knew that anyway. So then it was a question of starting to answer those questions. You know, the charge for the artist side of the equation is always the hypocrisy thing. Artists are very prominent, very easy to shoot at, and beloved targets of certain elements of the media for whatever they do. But particularly around climate given there's two agendas there going on, there's the we don't like your cultural kind of stance agenda and the we don't like the climate agenda. So you know, your your bad ground both ways as an artist. And then for the industry, the biggest issue is that in global terms, and in sheer kind of a numbers terms, the music industry is a bit player in the How bad are you in terms of the climate crisis, but it's still a player. And because of the way interacts with everybody's everyday lives, it's probably more visibly a player. So the things it does that are bad or more visible to the public than say, even some of the worst, you know, your mining companies and so forth. Nobody consumes products directly from a mining company and understands that they come from a mining company, whereas everybody does by records or streams, as you say, or has merchandise or gets to gigs. So that was the genesis of it anyway, yeah. Okay. And so were you aiming to get musicians to use their high profile to call for change? Or were you trying to change the music industry from the inside, both ways felt that we couldn't engage that incredible power and connection artists have with their fan bases without addressing the industry that they come from. It's a common misconception that artists have complete control over their careers. They don't, the smaller artists don't because they need the enabling kind of people around them, managers, labels, etc. They, you know, they need that structure to develop. And the biggest artists don't because their structure is so big that they couldn't possibly handle it all. So they have to, you know, kind of cede power and so forth to third parties. But nonetheless, they're always the target when things go wrong. And so we felt that if we were to ask artists to go in that very precarious position and be spokespeople for the planet, then we had to make sure that they were coming from an industry that can at least say we're getting better. So that when those charges came, the artists could say, well, I'm working with my promoter, my agent, my record company, my publisher, whoever my merchandise company to do this better.

Okay. Okay. And, Hannah, can you tell us more about the more than music reports? Or what did you hope it would do and what inspired you to put it together?

And what what were the key takeaways that you gave Kendal calling brilliant Festival.

It's a brilliant festival. The key takeaways were, which I always say to every business I work with, which is we need to make this easy, affordable, or cool ideally, all three we need to make it at least two of those things. So we can't be asking the audience to do something that we're not doing as a festival. So we need to be sharing with the audience what you're doing in all different areas of your festival. And we need to be focusing on one or two things in our first year to be talking about with the audience. So for us it was as simple as connecting the audience to the natural environment they were in the reminder that we are in a beautiful deer park that for 11 months of the year exists as an incredible nature reserve rewilding and then for a weekend of Kendal in the lead up and the breakdown essentially becomes an entire village becomes an entire town. And how can we connect the audience with the natural environment they're in? And also how can we show the audience what we're doing .For Kendal this year, we had that as an all encompassing campaign called leaves nothing but memories, which we're continuing into this year, as well. And our main touch point last year was leave nothing but memories, as in, take your tents home, be respectful of the space that you're in, and think of the natural environment that you're in and that story will be different also, for every festival, our audiences are different at every music event and the same with every musician. So we talked to everybody differently. But for Kendal in particular, it was the recognition that you are in a natural environment, please look after it. This is your home. It's nature's home. So please look after it. And faith in nature, were a key sponsor in helping us put that sustainability through. And their message is what would nature say? So that was a really key communication message when we were speaking to the audience last year.

Okay. Sounds great. That sounds really, really good. tying it all together. Now, Coldplay, are making a big splash about this on though they're talking a lot about it. They're a very high profile, eco friendly world tour at the moment. And they've had a lot of press attention. Good and bad. My question to both of you. Maybe First off, Lewis, how useful has that been for advancing the discussions around sustainability in music? And has it been useful?

Absolutely invaluable? I will defend that band to the death and I'm not a fan. The part that frustrates me about this conversation around Coldplay is at the very outset of this tour, when they announced what they were trying to do, they said, we're going to invest a significant amount of capital, in trying out various things that have all been suggested as solutions. Some of them won't work, some of them will be counterproductive. And some of them will work. We don't say we've got the answers, we say we are looking for them. That was the outset of the tour, and then they took flack all the way around the world when all the things they'd said would happen happened, which to me was emblematic of the problem we have in the climate crisis and the communications issues around it. And you know, it was kind of like a microcosm of the wider debate around climate solutions and the climate emergency, you know, that constant harping about when you tried that, and it didn't work, and you sourced your HBO from the wrong place. And, you know, well, you're partnered with X, and X does this and that's bad. It was really frustrating to see, nonetheless, reading through their sustainability report, which I have yet to properly get to grips with, because it only landed a few days ago. But the very fact that they published it is something it's transparent as but aside from Massive Attack, and they went with Tinder, I can't think of anybody else has done this yet. Obviously, reverb in the United States, if anybody's aware of those who are touring consultants have been doing this kind of work for many years, so that there are resources like that, but for a band of that scale, to put their flag in the hill and say, we're going to do this, we're going to take the flag, we know and to be honest, because it was Coldplay, they probably got extra flack, because, you know, they're an easy year, there's like kick Coldplay day, isn't it, though, in you two of our generation. So they do, they're gonna get flack for, but honest, very serious note, first thing, they've proved that there are things you can do and that they're scalable, that's really important. Secondly, in investment terms, I firmly believe that a lot of the stuff that they've done, the works will become more and more prevalent, because it's now proven you can do it. And the basic economics says that over time, that will become more achievable for bands and artists touring a lower levels, because economies of scale will come into play. So in a sense, they've set a new precedent, which is just remarkable. And also, obviously, they've used their advocacy power all the way around, because they've talked about it all the way around. They've made it a talking point. But there's a symbol of what one artist can do. It's remarkable. You could argue they've done more on that tool than some national governments have done in a year. Yeah,

That's very true.

I mean, and I would echo everything that Lewis has said there. I mean, the work that we did at Kendal as an example is, I'm a GRY Standard certified consultant, which is a sustainability framework that uses the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. Following the work we did with Kendal where we worked with about 15 key stakeholders across the festival. We produced a 300 page report with KPIs data collection loads and loads of work, but the headline for everybody was that we got 98% of tents taken home. Now, that was great. And I'm really proud that we did that. But it wouldn't have worked with all the foundation. should all work going on behind the scenes because people would have thrown mud at us too. If you actually look at the facts and the statistics, when it comes to music festivals as an example 70% of the carbon emissions usually come from the audience travel there. So actually, we could be doing absolutely loads of stuff at the festival, everything we could possibly be doing reusable cup, compostable veg were vegan food, etc. If everybody's coming to the festival still in cars, it's not reducing the carbon emissions in the huge ways that we need to be looking at. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be doing all the other good stuff. But it means it's all part of a wider ecosystem and a wider value chain. And it's looking at what we can do when we can do it with what we have. And I think what Coldplay have shown us is that it's actually fine not to be perfect, but to be doing nothing is not fine. So therefore, they've as limited to put their neck out. I've looked at the report like Lewis, you know, it's definitely worth a second and a third read. And it's very easy, even as a sustainability consultant to say, Oh, well, they haven't mentioned like the catering on the tour, which would have made a big difference. And but the point is, it's all about behavior change. And it's about if someone like Coldplay is looking at this, other artists are going to start thinking, well, maybe we need to be looking at this as well, because there's this expectation of others in our roles to be showing not just who we are as a band, but where our values lie as a band. And that's what Coldplay have done there. They put very clearly these are our values as a band. And we're actually prepared for you to make fun of us or say we're not doing it properly. But at least we're doing something here and it kind of challenges and pushes back to other people in the industry of, well, what are you doing? And how are you getting involved in this because we can all be part of the solution. But we always say if you're not part of the solution, you are the problem. And at least Coldplay are actually trying to be part of the solution here. Yeah,

That leads me on to my next question, I was out for dinner with a client the other day who works in the events industry. And he was talking about the fact there's murmurations at the moment and talking about, you may find bands will tour around the world, but go to geographical locations. So they may go to say Germany for Europe, they may go to I don't know, St. Lewis, for America, etc. But you will have stadiums. So maybe Manchester, maybe London, all these places in the UK, and you'll go to that stadium to watch the concert. But the concert won't be performed live in that particular stadium. So you get the live feel. Have you any thoughts on that? Have you heard anything like that?

So kind of National Theatre cinema kind of expanded? I'll be honest, the lockdown years were possibly the most depressing years of my life. As a live music fan. I appreciate I wasn't in the space with people watching it on a screen but watching live musical screens. For me personally, audibly a very different experience. I'm not a great fan of the idea that virtual gigs will change the world. The problem for me with the climate conversation, in terms of music is everything boils down to how much co2 and there's, it's a wider conversation and so you have to balance that with all kinds of other things starting with community. The power of a touring musician to bring together a community of fans is vast and and one of the biggest problems I think we've got in the climate space is I don't think we've got a scientific problem anymore. I think we've got a communications problem we know what's wrong and we know how to solve it. We just don't seem to be able to get people to understand, understand, accept, talk about it... Whatever! I mean, the research says that it's mostly that people don't want to be like the Doom Goblin in the corner of their social group going, Oh, but what about the climate crisis? So musics really powerful in doing that, and live music is incredibly important part of that. Because, you know, we find, when we're on site at festivals, or when we partner with artists like Billie Eilish, we can bring people together and they start talking. And that's the powerful thing. So, yeah, you can say, well, they'll talk while I'm watching the virtual band on the virtual script, it's just not the same for me. Maybe I'm just a little bit old and stuck in my ways, but it just, I don't think it's a solution.

I think it's a market opportunity, I often feel the people that talk about that don't actually seem to be viewing it. In my experience, actually, from the environmental impact point of view, it's more of a like, commercial opportunity point of view. I mean, my arguments against it would be going back to carbon emissions actually find out how much carbon emissions could be saved there. And the argument, I guess, I would see from a fans point of view, and we know what super fans and huge fans of bands are like, we've seen the Taylor Swift eras tour, you know, 200, 300 pounds a ticket to go see her live, I wonder if you'd end up causing more carbon emissions through people actually traveling to go to the one concert where the people are playing live at?

Brilliant

I think, you know, in the same way that other experiences is gained a huge following. And there's opportunities there to continue to grow the different ways in which people enjoy and appreciate music. I agree with Lewis, there's nothing like the live experience, which is why touring music festivals, etc, continue to be such an important cultural thing for us as as human beings. And it goes back to that, trying to create a change in people's attitudes and thoughts about the climate emergency. And it feels like oh, it's just a shortcut. To me. There's like a shortcut way of like, oh, well, if we just project it on some nice LEDs live, we're solving the issue when it comes to live touring. I don't think that's what we're doing. Because we're avoiding the conversation, which is actually there is a climate emergency, what can we be doing about that? Using all our different skills and talents wherever we are, whether we're a musician production, touring company, like, how do we make our part of that industry have a more positive impact? Because the potential is there. It but it's, like limits said it's everybody working together? And I think there's solutions to problems that we don't have. That's not the problem. I think the problem is like how we're putting on things as opposed to that we're putting on things. Yeah,

yeah. And I mean, logically, if 70% or 80%, some festivals, your emissions, if you want to talk about carbon is the audience traveling, then just having the audience travel, but not that the artist, you know, by the time you've factored in, catering and water use and all that at the virtual stadium, you're not gaining that much. And the the danger of that is that you can extrapolate that over multiple arenas. So actually, you might be ending up creating more, because you can take one show and show it in 50, places where you've just create 51 shows, you've actually created more, you've not done the opposite. It's law of unintended consequences. And the other thing with it is there's only certain artists that works for anyway. So then you start to really think about the viability of the live music industry. You know, one of the biggest fears in the music industry is AI. And one of the biggest fears about AI is that it's it's going to replace humans. You know, there's certainly people looking at things like that. The other thing again, well, that's okay, because it's other but let's not get too carried away here. Because if we start doing this, everyone, so we've got to be careful about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Hannah, in your report, you talked about the hope that festivals might have a positive and not just neutral environmental impact. How do you see that happening?

I think what you said makes a huge amount of sense. And I think the example of Shambala festival is, is really pertinent. And really because a lot of it is about the communications as you both have been talking about. And that is a way that you're communicating through actions by allowing people to understand what it is to do, and how to be. Lewis, I just want to touch on funding for a moment. Is it a challenge for organizations like yours, that are trying to change things in the music industry? And where's the money coming from? And is there enough of it?

Yes, is a challenge 3% of all, global charitable funding goes towards climate causes 3%. And so we're already in a bad space. As a charity. If we wanted to be profitable, we'd be better off saving donkeys is the honest truth. That's where a lot of the money goes. So So you know, as a charitable cause the climate is in its infancy, arguably, or just not as popular as cats, dogs, donkeys and various other things. The irony, of course, is there will be no cats, dogs or donkeys if we don't solve this, but that's human brains for you. Is there enough? No. Short answer? No, there's not enough. There is a lot of if I'm absolutely bluntly honest, and for many years, since the foundation of music declares we weren't this explicit, but we've decided we're going to be from now on because reality is reality. The honest truth is there's a lot of people within music who go we love what you guys do. But then when we ask them to fund it, they go very quiet. So there are certainly people who are on the other side of that equation. And the first people that should be mentioned at Earth percent, and Brian Eno and Kathy and their brilliant Board of Trustees, who were trying to change that dynamic and encourage the music industry to be proper supporters of not just as various climate concepts and their coherent response. And they are making headway and there are people that are engaging with that, but again, not enough so if anybody from the music industry, who signs off budgets is listening, I'm talking about you genuinely, I'm not going to mince my words anymore. We found ourselves every which way we can. That no means kind of dead planet T shirts have kept us alive at times, and donations from individual artists, donations from supportive and ethical companies, everything anything to keep the lights on. It's a real struggle, and we must spend a fair amount of our capacity just trying to stay alive which I accept but it's frustrating because There are other things we could be doing with the time and when the music industry is posting record profits left, right and center it is somewhat galling to look at the profits they're posting and go, we literally are asking you for naught point 1% of that, or naught point naught 1%. And you're making us literally just jump through hoops to try and get. So now they need to do better, end of story.

Yeah, no, fair enough. Hannah, up to 80% of the festivals carbon footprint is travel. And bands can control their own travel, but they don't control the infrastructure that get their fans to the venue, are cities or governments becoming more receptive to discussions about how to improve that?

No, would be the quick question. I mean, kind of going back to what Lewis was saying, and also Lewis just so you know, we just moved office and we've just done a video of me showing around the office and I'm wearing my No Music On A Dead Planet T shirt so..... But it's to be honest, that frustration lies in like this responsibility piece. I think, you know, Lewis has kind of talked about their of like, whose job is it to sort the climate emergency out? Is it the government's job? Is it business's job is it as as individuals and it's like, well, it actually it's everybody's job? And I think for musicians, it's, you know, yes, okay, they can control their own journey there. They can control the narrative they have with their their audience. But we have to also think about the reality of like, infrastructures, you know, many music festivals are in the middle of nowhere, because they're on, you know, country hall or, and they want some farm lands farm, and the reality of the government suddenly introducing, you know, good public transport links in that area for one weekend of the year is possibly relatively low. So what we have to do is we have to look more from traffic, like boring leaf and traffic management and from festivals, their own operations and logistics, are they making it easy for their audience to travel by coach or by train is their shuttle buses, etc, which actually all kind of sits within the festivals, responsibility and job to make sure it's easier for its audience? When it comes to governments? Yes, I mean, it is their responsibility, I spend a huge amount of my time campaigning to my local MP, and to the government about various changes in law when it comes to becoming better businesses and helping with the climate emergency. But I think as we've touched on a few times here, it's a multi pronged multi level approach, there is not one complete solution in how we tackle this problem. We're all kind of approaching it from several different ways to try and find the solution really,

The thing I would add, having, having had a go at the music industry, which which I stand by what I just said, but what has just kind of goes to the heart of the big conversation that's going on in the country at the moment. You know, this this conversation about where do we believe in this idea of a new business revolution? Do we believe in a systemic switch towards a future industrial progress that is based on green tack and based on innovation and based on decarbonization. And the music industry is part of that conversation. It's a business and it has to turn a profit. So you know, almost argue against myself, I get why they're not fully on board, because there are no tax breaks for it. There are no incentives for it, you know, a tour manager friend of mine or a manager friend of mine, you know, he's talking about the next time he's band go on tour next year. And he said, if there was a green splitter bus or a green sleeper bus, because the scale of the band, he knows damn well that if he goes to his hire company, the green one will cost four or five times as much because it's brand new. Yeah, now government have levers they can pull that can make that the same price as the dirty old diesel one. So it's not just on the music industry. I mean, the thing we keep coming back to his music is just financial power, as well as advocacy. I'd like to see them step up. They genuinely want to transition. Great, make all the things you're doing the carbon audits, change your light bulbs, all that stuff to create, you know, change your packaging, change your distribution, but use your voice at the table as a massive global business to say, we need this change. We need that change. You know,

yeah, going back to that, you know, some of the campaigning we do it Better Not Stop is there's something called the Better Business Act campaign, which is for every registered company in the UK currently has to work in the interests of its shareholders as a as a legal entity, a business needs to make money for the people that own it. That's what businesses are, therefore write music industry or not. We're saying there should be a change in law that all businesses need to work in the interest of the stakeholders, which means everyone affected by that business, because then businesses have a legal responsibility to be looking at their social and environmental impact, not just about making money. So that's legislation that we're trying to push through from a kind of commercial business perspective. And don't get me wrong, I'm not coming at this at, you know, as a profiteering sustain, you know, I only work in sustainability to make money because that's definitely not why I work in this industry. But do when I do have conversations with music festivals, you know, specifically, I had a good relationship to be transparent with Kendall Calling beforehand. I've worked with them in various ways pre event. But the reality was, they weren't going to pay us money to work on the sustainability of their festival if they couldn't see some other co benefits to that for their organisation. And they have seen that in just 12 months, they're getting better sponsorship opportunities for their festival, because the sponsors are seeing that the festival cares about what they're doing. There's also the co-benefit of your audience, actually having a stronger loyalty and understanding that you as an organisation are trying to do good for the planet as well, which makes your audience have a stronger emotional connection to you. And there's also kind of the boring co benefits of things around waste management and food waste management and power supply. If we can really organize our power supply at music festivals, it can save a huge amount of money as well. So it's, it's the shift, I think, also in the music industry of understanding that actually, if you spend money, in a different part of your event management planning or logistics planning, you can actually save that money in other areas. And there is a really annoying to me, sort of myth that goes around that sustainability is a cost within your business, like sustainability is future proofing your organization, one for the new future that is coming. But sustainability, as its dictionary definition is to help your business continue to grow, and to future proof. It's literally to be sustainable. So sustainability isn't there to make your business not commercially viable. It's actually there to make your business commercially viable in the long term. And actually doing a lot of the work that we do as an agency. Festivals are saying, Oh, we're just actually we're just spending this money at another point in our business journey. And it's saving the money long term. And going back to what Lewis was saying about a business revolution. Well, there's got to be because there is becoming a social revolution at the moment. It's been 100 years since the weekend was invented literally 90 years ago. And we've now got this social revolution of protests, disruption, just stop or extinction, rebellion of human beings expecting more from businesses and the government, citizens of the world. So business has got to catch up and do business differently. We haven't talked about B Corps, but that's one of the certifications we help businesses with. But it's a certification that is hard to get. It's changing the framework of your business. But there's data to show that using sustainable frameworks gives you a higher turnover, better retention of your employees better kind of commercial value keeps your investment opportunities. So it's all big ticks, it's just people actually catching up in their education of what sustainability is and how that can work in advantage of your business.

Yeah, I know some law firms that now won't work with organisations that don't have sustainability within their core business. And the reason being, and I found this really interesting was the fact that they saw it as a risk. So they see those companies and go, actually, we don't want to work with that organization, because in 10 years time, they won't be around. And that is actually a big risk. I mean, this, these are large law firms. So therefore their clients are bit like lots of money is floating around in those kinds of deals. And so therefore, they can be stung quite quickly.

So I mean, that's a question for the music industry, you know, both in terms of employees, the next generation of employees, it's already starting, you talk to people, businesses in the music industry, and they say increasingly, the question is not how much you're going to pay me, which is my generations question. The question is, what's your policy on sustainability, and various other social issues as well as not your sustainability, mental health is in there? Gender is in there racism, that you're going to sit with artists? You know, I keep saying is the next Billie Eilish going to sign to a Universal? Or is she going to go well, as somebody who believes in these things and this is not to criticize Billy Eilish for signing to Universal, nor to criticize Universal actually has been one of the more progressive, huge companies in the music industry in terms of lots of things. So you know, no criticism of Universal intended there. But the next big artists that's going to look at those labels not just as money because the relationship between artists and labels has changed so much with streaming anyway. They're going to look at values as well, because they're going to be thinking personally as values and also they're going to be thinking audience and values and that's true of festivals, that's true of, you know, sponsors, we saw Neil Young refused to play into the Barclaycard thing, there will be more of that. So you know, if you if you want to think about your business progressively, and you want to think about the future of your business, especially in an era where the big stars are dying, there's a lot of debate in the music industry about is the era of the big star over streaming flattens, and we don't have those kind of mega star things going on as much, excepting Taylor Swift, who is of course the exception to the rule. There's all those kinds of things that play into this as well. So there's a real sense in the music community in the music industry, that this is a moment where all these things are intersecting with each other. And there's a real moment of how do we move forward, there's a lot of conversation about how does the music instrument for, and this is part of it, or should be part of it, maybe I would suggest it should be more of a dog in the front.

Just just to, I guess, add on that is, we're seeing kind of standout instances of people, making those changes without being asked. So Faith In Nature put nature in their boardroom, they've given nature a seat at the table, a legal vote within the decisions that they make as a organization. That's pretty groundbreaking. But it's also not because also nature is such such a part of what we do as all businesses. And then EarthPercent, have done some incredible work, which I'm sure Lewis can talk about more. But something that really stood out for me was when they made nature of a co writer in music, so that musicians can put nature as a co writer in their music. And that money goes to EarthPercent, which is obviously fighting climate action. So there's a difference in how we're approaching the problems. It's not as a successful musician, I've got some money, so I'm just going to donate money to climate action causes, in fact, which we have been as impressed with Coldplay if the amount of money that they'd spent on their sustainability policy or costs and all of that they're just donated to charity, or that they've actually tried to systemically change how touring is done and share that information with others. percent have systemically tried to change how musicians are able to get involved in climate action, not just by donating money, but thinking wherever in your process, whether that's your merch, your ticket sales, or your royalties, can you get involved in climate action? And I think it's exciting to see how people are just approaching it from slightly different angles to almost say, Isn't it ridiculous that we're not approaching it at every single level of what we're doing within our organizations, but I'm sure you've got stuff to say on that list, because you've worked with EarthPercent a lot.

I think the EarthPercent models fascinating. I mean, the first thing about those percent that is laudable, but then the people behind it, you would expect this is that it understands the music industry. So the basic model is based on how royalty payments exists within the industry. So you know, the first issue having worked in history for 30 years, you always hit when you start talking to music, people about money as they go, now our systems don't really do that. That's the first line kind of refer to anything you suggest that's out of the ordinary, I would love to do that. But we're not set up to do it. So what EarthPercent did was work out something that they went, Oh, that that's how our systems work. So that was that conversation one. But also this idea that, you know, we're working with, with EarthPercent on a wider iteration of this idea of nature as as part of the musical process and as something that needs to be recognized or should be recognized by not just artists, but rights holders. In the process, you know, music developed humans developed music by listening to nature, that's where it came from, in the same way that humans developed art by looking at nature. And humans develop fashion by looking at animals and looking at their colourings. You know, everything we have has come from the natural world. There's literally no argument on that maybe it's about time that we kind of given the crisis, we're in found a way for all those things that have been created by nature to help keep it alive. So yeah, and so the earth percent thing, you know, what they're doing with that it's really important. It's not just about the income streams. It's about the recognition. You know, one of the biggest problems I think we have in the modern world is the disconnection from nature. And helping people to find that through different ways, is really important and powerful. And on a personal level, when I go back to Blackpool, where I grew up, and I talked to the people I went to school with, in the initial phase, they're very cynical about the work I do and the work that the people I know do because they have a perception of it, which is our problem, frankly, because of the way a lot of it's presented, but when you start to talk to them about the beach and the sea and the rivers, and the fact that the fracking site down the road was was there but they've closed it down. You realize they do care, it's just the frame is wrong. And so everything we can do within culture to read frame to find people that can come into their space and say, no, no, you don't have to, like play a drum or glue yourself to windows, okay, you can, you can care because I care and I'm just like you that kind of recognition stuff that's really important. So EarthPercent and ourselves work quite symbiotically because they're good with the kind of is the systems will get that side. And we like to think that we're good at doing that. Okay, well, we'll connect to the public and hopefully, then you have a holistic thing. You know, you're dealing with all elements of the conversation, which, incidentally, is how I think the music industry needs to work with this going forward.

Yeah, yeah. Communications seems to be a running theme amongst all of this, how we talk about climate and how we talk about sustainability as a whole. Which takes me on to my next question, MDE reached a bit of a landmark last year, you made the first plant based bio plastic vinyl record?

Well, we didn't make it. We supported it. There's a company called Evolution Music down in Deal in Kent, who are really inspiring company actually. And they've been doing r&d on this and various other things for some years now, working with with this kind of plant based alternative to vinyl, which they've gone through various iterations of that, I think they're now at a point where they've got one that's as good as vinyl, it's fair to say they're not the only game in town, there are various different vinyl versions floating around that variable from 90%, better to 95% Recycling and using tires and all kinds of different things. They're the only one that has no PVC in the chain at all, which is probably why we we think they're the gold standard. But But yeah, I love that, because so much of the climate conversation is you can't, it's all you can't, isn't it, you can't fly, you can't go on holiday, you can't eat that anymore. You can't buy that anymore, you shouldn't do this, you mustn't do that. Where's the plant base vinyl was like, a conversation that went you like records, yeah, here you are, but I'm not supposed to buy vinyl anymore, ahh but you can buy this. Because this is fine. You know, there is no impact from this and it will compost back down. So there's not even like it's going to hang around. So you know, as an example of how we can still have the things we love, just in a different way. It's a very small example. But I think you know, as a starting point for that better vision of the future, which increasingly interest as MDE, this idea of a positive future rather than a negative present is how we put it. We feel that that that that's the thing that we need in this conversation, we need to motivate people to believe in something again, rather than to feel that they have to withdraw in order to solve the problem. So yeah, it was a great example of that.

And going on to that bands, probably produce more merchandise now than at any other point in history. Yeah. Yeah. And because it's an important part of their revenue stream. But if we're honest, do we need all of that new T shirts and stuff? I mean, I guess, and this goes back to the emotional, the emotional kind of contents and the communications, it's all interlinked, isn't it? So it's not, do we need it? But, you know, maybe we do maybe actually, that is a part of the communications, maybe we don't,

You know, I do have some sympathy for artists in this conversation. Because, in a sense, that depends on what level you're talking about artists, because clearly there are some artists that are merchandising their way to large amounts of money in very bad ways. Firstly, I'd say there are better ways to do merchandise. So that's the first line it's like, come on, you know, source decent quality stuff, make it in a place that's good and ship it in a way that's not awful, don't overstock to a point where you've got mountains of the stuff left, or T shirts or print to order, there is literally no stock, so there is no overstock and when you finish wearing it, if you send it back to Teemill on the Isle of Wight, they'll shred it and make it into another t shirt. You know, the inks are certified, the cotton is grown with rainwater, it's as circular as a production process can be and, you know, my defense on it is, well, everybody wears clothes. So you know, wear better clothes and better clothes. You know, there's a point at which you can reduce this conversation to reserve as I'm saying, Nobody should make anything anymore. That's not really going to work. But I do take your point on the merch. I mean, the problem is that the economics of the music industry have skewed so badly, because of the way that streaming became the dominant force that artists on their teams have had to find other income streams to supplement and merchandise has become a very key part of that new income stream. So that's the fundamental problem. It's all very well said to artists don't make stuff anymore but the artists will go well, I not an artist anymore, then I can't do this anymore. So you've got to you've got to have is a slightly more nuanced view of it and a slightly wider conversation about value. And who takes what and where, and how we support artists in order to help them to make these changes.

Yeah, I think offer solutions. So, I mean, it's the argument of just because you can, should you just because you can produce loads of merchandise, should you be producing loads of merchandise and other other opportunities for you to make money and commercialize your business now, it is a difficult conversation. But I think, agreeing with Lewis at this point on this particular point is I teach carbon literacy. In fact, I'm in the process of accrediting a new course carbon literacy for musicians about how they can get involved using case studies like Coldplay working with EarthPercent on that as well actually, Lewis, in how can we provide free carbon literacy training to musicians so that they can be confident talking about climate action. And something I always teach right at the beginning of the course is, we ask everyone to do their carbon footprint calculator before they turn up and watch a documentary and they turn up and they will discuss how many tonnes they are and how they were surprised by the fact they've got a dog or that they live in a detached house what their carbon footprint is. And then I asked them if they've ever heard of the term Climate Shadow, and most of them won't have and probably a lot of listeners of this podcast won't have. But it's the concept of that it's not just your consumer actions that affect your carbon footprint. It's your actions in the work that you do. So I was given the example of you could be living in New York and a one bedroom apartment, a vegan walk to work every day, your carbon footprints probably going to be quite low, you can live in a detached property in the middle of nowhere, you drive your diesel car everywhere, and you have to fly frequently for work, and you love to eat steak for dinner every day. Now, one of these people works lobbying for the oil and gas industry in Washington DC or something, but has a really low personal carbon footprint. So that's fine. And the other one is a climate scientist who actually works in the North Pole, working on like melting icebergs and flies around the world to talk about how we need to tackle the climate crisis and working with governments. Now, if you're looking at those two people, that actions that they're doing on a daily basis, one is creating a higher carbon footprint correct. But actually, what they're doing to try and turn the tide of the climate crisis is obviously much larger than someone who's pushing against it. So rather than vilify every single aspect, you can have an artist which is exactly what Coldplay experiencing at the moment for not doing everything absolutely perfect on their tour, is recognizing where your challenges are taking responsibility for the things that you can't like your own merch, like there is a responsibility there of if you're choosing to make that decision to have an unsustainable income stream that negatively affects the planet. It's you just need to be conscious of that, and actually quite honest about it. So always thinking about Climate Shadow, I think is important in regards to what people feel empowered to do as well in their own kind of daily actions.

Yeah, yeah. The other problem you've got as a market reality with merchandise, so when we launched the No Music On A Dead Planet T-shirts, within two days, if that there were hundreds of fakes, hundreds, literally hundreds. And to this day, there remain hundreds of fakes. If you type No Music On A Dead Planet T shirt into Google, you will get red bubble and loads of other companies that are doing fake T shirts. So even if an artist doesn't do merch, somebody will, is done. It'll just be sold outside the gig rather than inside. So I mean, it seems kind of slightly frustrating to say it. But ultimately, you need to come back to a place where you remove the desire for these things. And that's about public perception. And that's about hope. And it's about dedication. And in a way, a lot of the focus on the music industry. I mean, I said somewhat flippantly to somebody recently, but there's a kernel of truth in mind that I'd say, I would swap a net to zero or a zero carbon music industry for a massively advocacy based music industry that had real power to change opinions in Washington, London, Berlin, Paris, Beijing, pick the other Tokyo, you know, they can actually encourage public opinion to force change a governmental level, and deal with fossil and deal with agriculture. I'd swap that out.

Yeah, well, I think there's not even just a kernel of truth, though. It's goes back to what Hannah was talking about with the Climate Shadow that I would absolutely swap for that. Yeah, absolutely, categorically because I think that that will make such a bigger difference. And this is what's so exciting about the music industry. And it goes back to what you were talking about before about, you know, you've got all these different bands and DJs, and so many different types of music that we all listen to. And we're all different people, and we're all fed. And how amazing is it that we are fed a way of seeing it, and it goes back to the Shambala with, you know, the, the food and it's, it's so powerful. I think the music industry is so, so powerful. And now we often hear about how restrictive recording contracts are. Now, do artists actually have the power to lead change? Or are all the decisions made by men in suits?

Depends on the artist? To a degree... I mean, recording contract depends on the company as well. I mean, if you signed a Ninja Tune, then you're going to be encouraged to do all things we've been talking about, because that's how Ninja run. And that's certainly true to be fair, Beggar's Group, some of the bigger independents definitely are very progressive in this Domino have been very supportive of us and know that they're thinking there, and junior beats that the big dance label so that there's plenty of examples with the the big majors, if you're the next hot, big thing, not that those come along quite as often as they used to. But if if you are, then you probably you have that sweet spot I was an a&r years ago. So I know from experience, that an artist has a sweet spot where they can pretty much ask for anything within reason, and you will find a way to give it to them because you want them to sign. So if you want to restrict formats, which is something that's a particular bugbear of mine, I can't quite believe we're in an era where cassettes are being offered again. I mean, really, really, really, again, you know, it's just a make weight for bundles for chart positioning, it's really frustrating to see the rebirth of the cassette and the articles talking about it as though it's a great thing. It's more plastic, rubbish, sorry, rant over. But you could restrict formats, you could demand certain packaging, you could demand certain distribution networks, you could if you're signing away your merch, maybe you could do that as well. You could demand certain merch, there's some windows of opportunity. But to be fair to the labels, you know, if you ask for your albums not to be shrink wrapped, which actually, in terms of impact is small, but it's a great signifier of a problem, the labor will go we'd love to do it, but we can't. Because the production systems that will produce your record are set up to shrink wrap everything. And the only way we can do it is if we get them staples shrink wrap off at the end and stick it in the pen. So until the again until you change the overall production system. There are certain things that individual recording entities can't do. They just can't do.

And I don't think they're the only part of the industry that's got a huge sway with the labels, you know, agents and managers, in my opinion, for the larger artists have a much larger sway last year, but Kendal naming no names of any artists at all. We had a campaign with the artist riders, we work with an incredible company that work on all the artists riders. And there was a request that went out something that I asked to happen, which was can you ask the artists if they'd be happy to reduce down their Vida or have their choices changed to a more sustainable option. And if we reduce down their vida, the money that we save on that rider, we will donate to good causes. And we had a huge amount we had over 300 artists that can do the huge amount I don't remember off the top of my head. It's in my report, but maybe about 70 to 80% of artists either agree to making a sustainable swaps or having a reduction down in their rider because they know there's already leftover waste. Unsurprisingly, the main ones that were unable to do that all had agents, 100% of them had agents. I don't even think the question went to the artist about that. But I was I feel like if the artists had been asked, they probably would have said yes, something we're trialing backstage at the event this year is actually an artist wellbeing area. Because we see artists on tour especially festival to festival It's a very heavy drinking heavy partying environment, there's not actually a lot of space for them to chill out and relax when they arrive backstage at festivals that doesn't involve that kind of party lifestyle. So we're creating wellbeing space for artists and changing the way in which their vibe is given to them and adding those touch points. So I think it's going back again to it's yes, there's stuff the artists can push for but agents could do a huge amount especially when it comes to touring and festivals because so much of deals vide on what goes on in that contract. Because you want to make sure whatever the agents has told that artists they're going to get when they arrive on site you as a festival have to provide that for them. Because otherwise you have the worry of perhaps that agent not bringing that artists to you again and that agent will have several artists on their roster. And often deals will come from you get that artist because you've got this artists and all that kind of thing, agents have a huge opportunity to push. And also managers have a huge opportunity to push, you know, and I would argue out of agents to record labels, those would be the next to kind of industry sectors that actually could make a really, really big difference.

I agree. I don't know if Hannah will agree with this. But I think a lot of the things that go on in the music industry that we would like to change collectively don't happen because people have sat down and gone, yes, we want more waste, they happen because that's how it's always been done. So the thing of walking into an artist's dressing room and it being loaded up with sandwiches and, and fruit and fruit, everywhere fruit. I mean, I love free, but it's so much of this is just wasted. And, and again, you know, in the grander global scheme of the climate emergency, you know, somebody chucking away a few grapes, and some pineapple isn't gonna make that big a difference. But as a symbolic thing, it all adds up to this idea of waste, and it weakens your position for change. Just a lot of perception shifting. I mean, the big one for me with agents, well, with festivals actually is exclusions, that frustrates the hell out of me. So to explain that briefly, if your artist is quite high up festival bill, their contract will have what's called an exclusion in it. And this will mean that you can't play for a certain time period in a certain radius of that event. And it can be as much as six months, and it can be as far as 200 miles. That's the worst I've remember hearing. So I've had instances back in the past where it has been more cost effective financially, if you don't take into account the impact cost as well, but you don't on budgets. And that's another conversation, to fly an artist into America to play one festival on the West Coast, I shan't name to then turn around and fly back, because the exclusion was so vast that we would have to have gone either up as far as you can to the Canadian border or back to the west coast or the east coast to play any more shows. And the cost of both of those flights was almost identical to just flying them back. Now, that's insane.

And going on to that I think what Lewis is showing there is just how many different challenges that are in the media. It's called Music declares a climate emergency, not musicians, because musicians are just part of a much bigger wheel when it comes to when we talk about the music industry. And if we start to see standout changes in how studios have run or how tours have been those will start to have a ripple effect definitely because the story will start to change then of it being solely the artists responsibility to instigate change but actually the responsibility of everyone within what I very boringly call the value chain of an industry everyone involved in that process.

Okay. And last question quickly is, can you spotlight on one individual or organization that is really pushing change?

If I'm going to choose an artist, I'm going to always choose Billie Eilish, because I think the show she did at the otoo last year, were a perfect example of how to do it. Across the board. Everybody was involved the venue, the agent, the promoter, the artists, the manager, you know, the OT went vegan for six days, the upshot of that was they didn't put beef burgers back on the menu seems little but you know, you know what art is one such 120,000 people exposed to a really well thought out explanation of how to do it well, with two side funded YouTube streamed conversations with the right people climate young climate activists, in one case, the music industry people in the other case about how we get better, he's just brilliant. The whole overheated think it was perfectly done.

And what about you Hannah?

Great. Brilliant. Well, thank you both so much for coming on. It's been absolute insightful to listen to both of you and to understand more about the music industry and, and the problems that we're facing, but also what we can do to achieve it. I'm coming out really positive. I think there is a lot we can do, isn't there? And I think it's happening as well by the sounds of it. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. And that's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved, the sustainable business podcast. Thank you to my guests, Lewis Jamieson, and Hannah Cox. I'm Willl Richardson from Sustainability Solved. For more information on Sustainability Solved and everything we've discussed today. Please check the show notes. If you have any feedback or questions you can get in contact with us @greenelement on social media. And don't forget to follow this podcast in your favorite app and write us a review. Thanks a lot and see you next month.