In this episode of On Coaching, Zoltán Csigás talks with Lise Lewis who is an international executive coach, team coach, coach trainer, author, and researcher.  She is a past president of EMCC Global and is currently a special ambassador of the organization. The episodes explore Lise’s professional journey and her insights into the world of coaching and mentoring in general. Zoltán and Lise talk about Relational Feedback and Lise’s model The Relational Leadership WAY is based on her doctoral-level research on the topic

Hello, my name is Zoltan Csigás, and this is Zoltan Podcast ON COACHING. . In the series, I'm talking with internationally renowned coaching scientists and coaches. We explore their personal and professional insights on the science of coaching, and on the helping professions. Are you interested in how they got close to this profession? Are you curious about the new frontiers they are exploring right now? Join me and listen to the conversation, inspiration, and some fun is ahead. Please, welcome, I'm so glad to have you here.

But it's a total pleasure. Sorry to meet with you. Thank you for asking me.

And we have a long past. And they really honor this past. And they've written a few words about you in the introduction blog post. But I would like to ask you to introduce yourself. Because I'm always curious and how people introduce themselves in different stages of their life. So what is your current introduction of yourself?

I know that's a really good question, actually. Because what we tend to do is rattle off all you know, I'm a coach, which I am. I'm a supervisor, which I am, I'm a trainer, which I am, I'm an author, which I am and I'm a researcher. And then there's this other side of who actually are when it's very deep questions only. And I don't think we have the time to actually go into that depth today.

Actually spending the remaining 45 minutes we just did.

So, well, you know, I'm it's funny, isn't it? When I started to think about it, how I get stuck there about thinking, Who am I basically, when you hide behind the roles that you play in your life. So if I think about it in terms of roles, I'm a mother, I've got two adult children. And one of my son is ex military, and he now works on projects aligned with the military. My daughter is the manager of a women's center who helped women who are dealing with trauma in their lives. And so I'm very proud of my my adult children in what they contribute to society. I'm married to David and I have a an I had Charlie the dog who I adore, and he's a real pet. Totally spoiled. My children have always said, Mom, you never support a fiver. I said, Yeah, well, I wanted to bring you up as responsible adults. So that's the in terms of being a mother and a wife and I and for myself, I always enjoyed an active life. So I'm very into going to the gym, I love walking, I love cycling. I recently started to think I might take up kayaking, we have lakes near us, which you can do paddleboard in which I also enjoy. I've tried kayaking a couple of times on holiday. And I've really I really like it and I find it very relaxing. So I got we've got a waterpark not too far away. So I think that might be my next venture. And I like swimming. So if I fall in, that's fine. So is that enough? Do you think about the

Yes, absolutely. And I can relate to kayaking because the the stillness and how cool it can be. That is really important for me. However, I'm not so good in swimming, so falling into the water. Well, it's a threatening thing for me, but I always do kayaking in good company. So there's always someone to save me.

That's good. Yeah, I'm really pleased, like save you.

And thank you for all these and I think they when we met professionally, that was a very active part of your life because I met USD emcc presidents. Yes. And I will have a question for them. But my first question is that what brought you to coaching? So how come that you became a coach and research because these are the two keywords? I'm usually speaking around?

Yes, indeed. Well, my background is Human Resources only. That's been my that was my main career before I became a coach. And I worked in a very large local government organization of 18,000 people at that time. And we had very good systems. You know, despite all the criticism there is about local government. The systems are normal Really great. It's the application of them, that sometimes falls down. And part of that was the performance management system I was involved with heavily. And this is kind of linked to the topic of feedback that we'll talk a bit more about. And I won't say too, I won't say too much about that right now. Because your your question was what? Why? Okay, so obviously involved, as a lot of HR people were in the formulation of the system of performance management, and I did a project for the whole organization on competencies. So that's my background and competencies as well. I'm setting standards which I contributed to EFCC quality awards, in my early days with the MCC. And I, you know, I, I thought we had a really robust system. But it kind of wasn't applied in practice within the organization. There seemed to be some reluctance to get involved in supporting people was development. It was all there was everything there the infrastructure was in place. But the implementation, as I said before, just wasn't there. And managers would shy away from things the top number times Ali, I've had people coming into my office and say, Lise, you need to sort my team out. And I would go in well, let's sit down and talk about that, because, you know, I wasn't going to take over the line managers role. Anyway, this is a bit of a long answer to your your question in terms of getting to the point that I just became disenchanted. To be honest with you, I just found that I'm a creative person, I love innovation. There just wasn't the opportunity. So we were having yet another reorganization at one time. And I, when I look back on it now, I think what a risk I took, because I was in a senior role within the organization, getting a very healthy monthly salary. And I'd heard about coaching, I also had this kind of inner sense that I would love to have my own business, I can feel this entrepreneur in me, burst in on wanting to get out. So not had the constraints of employment. And to become, you know, my own my own employer. So I took the plunge in a reorganization and put my hand up and said, I volunteer, you know, I'll go, I'll go and redundancy and they went, No, no, we want you to go and do the training side. And I went, No, no, no, my role is redundant. So I want to, I want to go. And I left really without thinking what I was going to do, and I suppose I lent heavily on my experience in HR, probably for 18 months, two years, I did some work for them, contracting people that I knew from other organizations were very kind and brought me in to do some work for them. So I was doing consultancy, but it was all HR. And I thought I left HR because I'd had enough of it. You know, I didn't, I didn't want to do the employment law, and the health and safety legislation. And we had the EU legislation coming in. And it was getting really complicated. And I thought this is not what I came into HR for. So that question I asked myself, led me into coaching because I loved helping people to develop, I was really interested in helping people to upskill realize their positions in that organization that I was employed by, and coaching was around and I thought, let's have a look at that. But there wasn't much training around at that time. I'm going back now solely. There wasn't much training in terms of what we see now. Anyway, I got the training that I could bits and pieces here and there. I read a lot. A lot of it was from America, the literature that was around there wasn't too much that I could find in the UK. And then I discovered emcc And I joined the MCC. And of course, that was you know, I've been a member there for over 20 years now. So I it was a wonderful start to my coaching career. To meet other like minded people. My learning curve was vertical. It was I just immerse myself in all the wonderful opportunities I had meeting people from different cultures, supporting the standards, developing those I was on the standards committee in the UK because that's where emcc was founded. And I just just loved it. I mean, there's no other word for it and I slowly Before I practice

Sorry for interrupting you, but I can see your whole your enthusiasm as you started to speak about your coaching career and emcc. You, you all lit up and you were like. And then I was just thinking that one week, we'd make a good case study of what you how you left your previous workplace. And because what you've been mentioning that it sounds like a common HR challenge, or this is something that I face, even these days, or my clients, or my friends face these days is that all good systems are not working or not supporting, not making the ends meet. And we could go there when I would rather stick with your friend CMCC thinks I'm giving you the giving back the word to you. And I will be curious to know, how did you get to be the president? So because that is a major role?

It's a really good question that zali because I asked myself that at the time, as I mentioned to you, I started off in the standards committee in the UK. And that gave me a lot of experience. We were we were creating the accreditations, in that Standards Committee, I worked with some wonderful people, we all pulled our knowledge. And we researched what we could in terms of standards. And we create we had a lot of knowledge between us. And because, you know, I do like challenges. And I, I want to expand my knowledge all the time. Even though I'd become Chair of the standards committee in the UK, I thought what's going on in the rest of the emcc? What's happening out there in mainland Europe, where Julie hay, who was the president and have been doing some great work in terms of growing companies, you know, encouraging countries to become affiliated. So there wasn't a board that an international board global as it's called now. And vacancy came up for a vice president. So I applied for it. And I was delighted to be appointed. And I became Vice President of External Relations, which really suited me because, again, I love reaching out into the community and, and trying to attract the growth of the MCC. So that was a great opportunity for me. And I suppose I was on I was on the as Vice President on the board for probably about five years, something like that. And then the current term for the president that was in situ, then was coming to an end. So it was coming up for voting for council to choose a new president. And a few people said to me, you go for president, please. I said, No. It just hadn't dawned on me to do that. However, the more I thought about it, I thought, Well, why not? might not go for it, I could see there were things that I would love to get started. And, you know, we had no strategy, for example, we had no strategic vision for where we're going in the future. It was very much a growth, organic growth, but not with any, not with any direction as such. So there were other things that I wanted to do. So why not? If I don't get voted, that's fine. I'll stay on. I'll stay on as vice president. So no one was more surprised than me. I can tell you when I was voted president. And my first three years were very much about introducing new new initiatives into the MCC. And I, I think probably I tried to do too much at one time, because we ran on volunteers. And we didn't have as many volunteers then as we do now in the MCC. And so by the the first three years of that's the term for president went so quickly I thought yes, if if council have male stay on another three years, so that's what I did. And I was president for six years in total. And then I thought it was time to say that's enough. You know, if it gets some new energy from someone else, and I had exhausted a lot of my own my my best my business that really suffered, it was just ticking over because being president became a full time role, but I did it very willingly. You know, I didn't because the choice was amazing. I loved it. I loved every minute of it. So that's that's the story of that one. Sony.

Thank you. And thank you for sharing that and what I why I think your your current position is unique that you had you have a background in research. Your feedback is your topic you have any Inside over over coaching standards, because you're very involved in the creation of one of the most prestigious of international standards, you were a global president, past Vice President of External Relations. So I'm really curious and how you see the coaching landscape these days, because you will have the insight from the professional perspective and from the International Connections perspective. What do you see now? What what is happening to your profession?

That's a big question, actually, exactly what is happening? I mean,

I've mentored as that consciously because I'm just curious on what the chance you may see, what is the thing that's, that goes for your attention? And then, of course, not interested in a detailed analysis? I'm just curious, from your perspective,

well, if we take, if we just start with standards, first of all, I think, you know, in an unregulated industry, it's a real challenge for professional bodies, to encourage people to sign up to these standards, they're there, you know, we push them as you know, the professional bodies, in terms of encouraging people to become accredited and recognized, the more that we we are able to provide information for buyers of coaching and mentoring and supervision, the more that we're able to encourage people to become accredited. And to recognize that the value of showing a professional, they have a professional underpinning, so I see that that's going to continue, there's a big kind of conversation around the competencies, how effective they are, etc. But, you know, you could talk that about the whole education system, generally. And universally, you can argue, our qualifications, the best way of going forward, we'll probably not, however, until we find something to replace that, then it's at least we have a standard, we've got something that people can use, especially with the code of ethics, you know, how we can practice professionally, and there's a sport of the professional bodies. So I see that I see the professional bodies gaining more and more recognition and growth, in terms of the industry is growing, more and more people are out there, you know, it's, it's kind of watching it go across the world. If if, if I look at the world has been flat, which we know it's not, but if you go, you know, if the world maps that I'm familiar with, you know, the UK in the middle, I don't know why, but is that if you go towards the you know, you come from the States, that's where coaching started, more live coaching, it then became the European approach came more corporate, it's gotten right across now. And it's, you know, it's worldwide, it's here to stay is my is my belief, what I think, you know, we all see the value of it, the more people that are encouraged the the more will get involved, corporates, of course, so they're now growing their own internal functions, which is understandable. I think some seeing that it's good to have some calibration over that in terms of having a mix of internal and external. Because you when you're internal, you're part of the system, you may know the system that's helpful, but you're part of it. So you're bound to be you're bound to be influenced by that system. So you need that external independence. So I think that balance is still there. I generally, we must think about artificial intelligence more, I think. Next question. Yeah, it's, it's no, I mean, I can remember doing a keynote in Bangkok before COVID is probably five years ago now, for AIPAC, Asia Pacific Association coaching. And my topic was on AI because I was so fascinated by it, as you've probably gathered, I love new things. I love learning about new things. And some I did some research that's, you know, I've always researched topics this is, this is my kind of my entry into research, if you like, has been my own interest. Wanting to find more on what's out there. And I was just saying with AI and, and people are still talking about it as though it's just arrived. It's been around for some time now. And we need to get involved in this because otherwise, you know, we can't see the opportunities for us, of you of combining AI with what we do, or we can't we can't see the threats either. I mean, I think we've accepted already that the kind of transactional type of coaching is threatened by AI. You can get you can get a chatbot you're on the right On the wall on your iPhone, and you can set an action plan easily, you know, you don't need a human being to do that with you. So it's about how we can distinguish what we as humans that will have to offer that AI car. I mean, AI hasn't got a heart. So, you know, there's something about that human interaction. Of course, this is where I got interested in feedback. It's the relational side of the workers, coaches that really interests me, that's, that's my focus. So I think, yes, that's where I see the trends going, I think supervision will grow, hasn't got to, it hasn't got traction everywhere yet. But I think people are increasingly seeing the value of it. Coaching is grown in countries that only looked at mentoring such as China, I mean, you know, you'll never see coaching in China where it wasn't a tall person, and supervision, it will grow the same way. It just, they're all young industries, we're so fortunate to be at the grassroots of these things. So yeah, there's lots happening suddenly that I think we need to be mindful of, and aware of going into the future, we can't become complacent, just because touching has become so popular.

I agree. And thank you very much for sharing these. I was so glad to hear that you started with the opportunities when reflecting on AI and not immediately with the threats, because they usually hear it the other way around, people are getting scared of okay, we are going to be robbed for clients and what's going to happen. So I was happy to hear the opportunities. Oh, yeah. And the you already answered my next question that it was the relational aspect that drove you to the topic of feedback. And this is how your interest in AI and technology is linked to your research. And to the topic of your book. Can I say books?

Well, you can say book and a book in progress. There will be a second edition coming out, as soon as I finished it, which hopefully will be shortly.

How does so you say that it was the your interest in the relational aspect of technology that brought you to the topic of feedback. And I was surprised to hear this because I really saw that you're interested in feedback was more related to your background around standards? And how we and you are nodding negatively, I'm just commenting what is happening between the two of us on the street. So you're there was a big no, no on your face. I always told that your interest in your background in standards and then competencies. So that shows most a number of my questions out the window. Sorry. But that's the beauty of these. You know, this is the beauty of a conversation. That's I can show my assumptions of the windows. So I'm curious, how come that you that you found feedback as essential topic in the in the technological invasion of coaching? Because I could think of other topics as well? How did you get to the topic of feedback?

Well, it started way back in my HR career in terms of, you know, I mentioned my frustration that performance management systems didn't work. I also was well qualified in the use of psychometrics, I did a lot of training many years ago in a whole range of psychometrics and use those in terms of career planning and career development in my role. And of course, there was a strong element of feedback in that so and I could read, I could feel I was drawn to it in terms of make, how I use my language, how I use a relationship, to support some of the areas that weren't so easy to digest the individual. And of course, in many cultures than UK is one of those, we look for the criticisms as we see it, you know, in terms of getting feedback, you know, what am I what's coming next, you know, and I also noticed that managers were very reluctant to give feedback. I mentioned earlier, managers would come in to ask me to sort their team out and that my, my conversation was with them about how, how could they manage to work with them and a lot weren't interested to be honest with you. They just expected their team to do what they were told. Because that style of leadership doesn't work and more we know that it still exists in a lot of hierarchical organizations, but it doesn't work, especially with the younger generations. They're not interested in being told what to do. They're interested in having a supportive relationship and encouraging their development. So it always stuck with me. And I've always said to myself, if ever, I get the chance to do something about the quality of feedback and, and encouraging people to get engaged, I would do it. And then I can't have it hanging around me, I have done an MBA, and I was very kind of on the brink of it. And then I thought, You know what, I'm going to do a doctoral study, and it's going to be on feedback. And I didn't shift from that, I thought, There's got to be more that we can do about encouraging feedback that between people other than using psychometrics, the something sandwich, which you will know, the middle word that goes with that, you know, and all other kinds of approaches that people took to us and feed forward. And they're not. And I'm not criticizing those, I'm just saying they weren't sufficient, in my view. And that, you know, I've included those in my, in my first book, I've said, let's have a look at them. What's available? What do people use in organizations? And I mentioned, I use psychometrics quite a lot, but it was only part of the story. So I was fascinated to see what else could we look at. And of course, the relationship became very obvious. So my field study in my doctoral research was with fellow coaches. And we we got, we got together, and they came from different backgrounds, which was amazing, you know, we had a very rich set of coaches who had different disciplines that they came into coaching with, which made it very rich discussions. And I, we formulated together a set of observations that they make in their practice. Now we should we, you know, to use surance work, could we reflect in practice as we were working with our clients? Or did we reflect on practice? Well, obviously, I would have preferred them to reflect in practice. But, you know, there was there was a challenge about that in terms of not having total focus on the client. So in the end, we agreed it would be a reflection on practice, and we would meet regularly, we did a kind of a kind of action research. But I couldn't say it was fully that approach, because we didn't change the questions that I asked. So they remained the same anyway, long story short, sorry. Because obviously, it was a lot of studying the

database, but it's okay, if you shorten it.

Yeah, the observations that they made on on their practice, I did a thematic analysis of those responses, and analysis, those those systematic responses, I created a framework, which I called the relational leadership way, because I wanted to encourage leaders to become more relational in their interactions with their direct reports.

Can you share a few words about this framework? To show that it's useful not just for leaders, but for people in all other walks of life?

I think so I think it is very portable. So we could even use it there. I say in our personal relationships, some of these things we can think about the relational leadership way comm you know, I stick with the themes into three sections. The first part is what we need to prepare to encourage relationships that stimulate constructive conversations. So it's about what we can do together, that it takes both of us to interact in this. I'm also, this is about not just the giver of feedback, using this thematic framework, but also the receiver. So that because I wanted to become generative, our conversations so that we work together on this and we find solutions together, what better way for people development than to work on through it together rather than be this is what you need to do. This is what the ones that happen, that obviously, it's got to come into that conversation. But if we use that, if we put that into a coaching context, where we're helping people find the best way for themselves, you can see how this framework will work. Yeah,

one quick question for the so when you get to this research, you already had a background in coaching and you were practicing. So were there any surprising findings for the spice board, creating or supporting the relationship?

I think I want to say something bronzing I wouldn't say surprising necessarily, I think what it did was bring the relationship to the forefront. I think we can easily get caught up in processes, and models and techniques and tools. And we don't think enough about how can we bring the two of us together. I'm generalizing. Obviously, there's a lot of great coaches out there who think very much about the relationship. But this is bringing it to the forefront. This framework, this is, what I'm saying is, it's the most important part, if we get the relationship, right, everything will fall into place.

So good to hear that. Although I'm a fan of theories and models and frameworks and tools, and whatever. I always send a fear, or I'm aware of my fear of losing my clients or just modeling, you can work with some of the great stuffs that I've learned. So

this is a framework, of course. But however, it's the idea is that we take on these these approaches so that we can forget the framework. Just let it go. Because we've we've thought about the preparation in terms of not what we want to say this is what tends to happen in feedback conversations, we think about what we need to say this is about managing ourselves, how are we coming into the conversation, you know, that we're stressed? Have we just had a bad experience? So what do we need to ground ourselves? Do we need to become centered? And think about, you know, like going into this, this conversation in a way that's going to encourage the other person to interact with me in a relaxed way? Or am I so worked up about the feedback that I'm going to give, or how the other person's going to react, but I'm already tense, which the other person will pick up, as we know. And so you know, we're already creating friction in the relationship, because we're not relaxed. So it's that first part it that preparation is about that self management. And also to think about how ready do we think the other person is? What happens, I know I observed is that the people in their preparation, think about what they're going to say. They don't think about how the other person might receive it. So there's compassion that needs to be in there for ourselves. If it's going to be what we think is a tough conversation, of course, it may not be the other person might be okay with it. So to be careful about our assumptions, and theirs, but if it is a difficult one compassion for ourselves, because we have to give this message, but also compassion for the other person, how are we going to manage how they receive it? And how does that affect our delivery, and then we think about maybe what total we use, the vocabulary we use word, it's hurt more than we know. So we have to consider the language. So that's the first part of the framework, the second part is actively engaging in CO creating that that positive conversation through adopting relational behaviors. And in this second part, the themes, sorry, I'll just run through them very quickly on objectivity. So forget our feelings of subjectivity, we could often come in with our views, our worldview, this is what we think about things. This is how we interpret it. But how can we maintain objectivity, and we retain that in terms of really being open to where the other person is coming from?

This is a quick fix for that. One sentence solution for that, because that seems to be a real challenge to be to stay objective. You know, certain funders or friends of mine would even question such a stance exists at all, but let's not go there.

Okay, I'm not saying this is this stuff is easy. I'm saying we need to be raising awareness about these are the behaviors, the relational behaviors that are going to make our interactions with others more successful. So we we know that we come with our own prejudice and bias and unconscious bias, we know this, and we know the other person will. But the more we're aware of that, the more that we can erode that those subjective thoughts, not saying that we're going to get rid of it completely. We're human beings. So you know, it's bound to happen, that there will be subjective creep, but let's call it that will come into our conversations, but that read that awareness at least helps us to think about what am I bringing into this? What are my prayers is about this person, for example, you know that I that I need to maybe rethink, I will find and give the other person the opportunity to help me to think differently. You know, it not saying it's easy, I'm just saying this is an approach that we might think, to take. And you know, that's what a lot of these techniques make, you know, they seduce us into thinking is, there's a quick fix. There is a because we're dealing here with human, the human condition, and human frailties. So we have to respect that and work with it. If we want to improve, I mean, there's so much around about how important feedback is, and it's just not, it just isn't given the space it needs to breathe. And think about a different way of being it. This is about a way of being isn't it. This is about us how we come into it. And we as coaches know about presence. But if we think about people in organizations that are working with feedback, all the time, they may not be present, the half the time is, you know, that somebody could be going on talking about something and the other person becomes bored, but then they're not going to be present are they they might be thinking about the next meeting they've got, they might be thinking about the meeting they've just had, we know how easy it is to get distracted. We know how easily the brain becomes bored in a conversation sometimes and just goes off somewhere else. So this is about at members. Part two is about active, active engagement. So this is about us actively working on maintaining that presence, what are we noticing any other person and practicing mindfulness helps us to to encourage the ability to remain as present. We currently name present 100% of the time, it's too hard work for that brain, you know, it's, but at least we can work towards being as present as we possibly can. And the last theme in that part two, is the timing of feedback. Now, this is a really tricky one. If we think about some harsh feedback to give, how do we know when the timings right? So the what came out of this research was that if we really behave relationally, and we really actively work, being engaged with the other one, and noticing what's going on, we will get a sense, because I asked people thought this was one of the questions how do you know when it's when, when it's right for you to give feedback with your client? And they say, I'm just sensing, I just feel it. So in that third, in the third part of the framework, intuition is in there, let's not ignore our intuition. Let's, let's celebrate it I mean, it is it is becoming more recognized. Now. I mean, it has been kind of given a bad press in corporates, especially, you know, we want the hard facts with data to prove what you're about to say, intuition. Don't want that fluffy stuff. But you know, this, this framework is so don't ignore it, which takes me to that part three. And it's about you both noticing that this is why it's important that we're both aware of this framework, and reacting to what's emerging in the conversation on what's impacting the, the relationship, the quality of the relationship. So if we see it flow to your way, somewhere, we might want to bring it back. And to do that we have noticing the other person's physicality, you know, how they fly, they react into the conversation that we're having. So I'm looking at you right now sign in, you're looking at me and I can think you're in, you know, you've got that look that say and I am listening to you, you know, doing the nod. Your body language is a bit forward. So you're showing me that you're engaged with me and I think we're both mirroring our body language here in this conversation. I know the listeners can't see us but you know, there's a mirroring going on

speed shot here, if you don't mind. So.

So

we can check if it's okay for you to share.

Okay, okay. So the neuroscientists among us will remind us of our mirror neurons that we you know, we, we pick up those signals from each other all the time. And if we feel that there's kind of a pulling away, then the relational leadership way is saying, what's good Going on what's going on here that the other person is pulling away? What am I contributing to this? So instead of this the other person who's pulling away, they may be, but what's the reason for that? And how can we pull that back? In terms of getting that reengagement?

Thank you. And as you were describing the model I have, I have a curiosity both on your on your subjectivity. So your subjectivity, favorite parts, and I have some professional questions. Let me go for the first one. Do you have a favorite religion or behavior that came out from your research? So is this something that you think that we, we should all be paying more attention to?

But oh, we think they'll have a favorite one, I think the me the whole framework is shouting, we need to focus on the relationship. Because we're, I mean, I'm, I'm sharing these themes with you, sequentially, you know, because that's how they are in the framework. But like, my thinking is, it's a composite framework, actually. And we move in and out of all of them. So that self management isn't just in the preparation stage, we could think about our self management all the way through. That might be my favorite, actually, that's just emerged in our conversation, that might be the one that I say, that is the most important, how are we behaving? How are we managing? What's evoking in us in the conversation? What stimulated in us what's triggering in us, when we with the other person? And what might we be noticing about how we're impacting on the other? What are we? What are we contributing to that? I think we have enough focus on ourselves here. You know, we could I mean, emotional intelligence is at the root of a lot of this in terms of how aware are we and our impact on others. So that you know that that's in underpinning this framework, in terms of we know, that's more important than IQ now, for leaders.

And as you as you are seeing this stuff, I'm thinking about self awareness. Because that's really the things are very closely linked to self management. And my my question is, do you have a favorite approach or a proven approach that can help people, especially in the short term, to be more self aware? Because applying such a framework, needs self awareness? If I'm if I'm not aware of what is happening with me that I wouldn't be able to react for myself, so goes out the window, the whole concept of self management. So what would be your approach or your quick, simple fix for raising self awareness?

Well, I suppose it's emulating what we're doing coaching, really a notch sharing the idea of reflective practice? I think that's, that's the key here, that if we, if we reflect more on our conversations? Well, before we get to that, if we reflect more in the moment on our conversations, so if we're more aware of taking notice of what's what's happening in our conversations and our interactions with others, and accepting responsibility for our contribution, I think, you know, I noticed in my practice, as a coach, and a mentor, and the situations people bring to supervision, there's always something out there. That's the issue of people that are not coaches now talking about people that don't have coaching, knowledge or skills, particularly, then there is a low level of self awareness there on occasion, you know, those, those are probably, again, the main part of my practice is around raising self awareness in in others that maybe there isn't too much. And it's causing difficulties in there for them within their teams and within their roles as leaders. It's, it's holding them back. So they're technically extremely sound. However, when it comes to interactions with others, and you know, we think about leadership for tomorrow's what's happening is that it's going to revolve more and more around relationships because we're working with less resources, more more productivity is expected. So we have to get used to maybe five generations in the workplace. Yeah. So we got to think about those generational interactions. So the, to me the relationship comes to the poor. If we don't, if we can't get on with people, how are we going to make things happen? Okay, you could say, in a crisis, just tell people what to do accepted. accepted, if we got a crisis, you don't want to go into a great long discussion, or think about how am I impacting on this person, you need some action. But we're talking here about sustainability, in terms of raising performance in organizations and increasing productivity. So therefore, to me, it revolves around good relationships. It what it revolves around teams working with a team mindset, not with an individual mindset. That comes through being relational.

Thank you, you know, unfortunately, I see that we are approaching the end of our time, but you just wrote in so many important keywords, for me, sustainability, long term performance, thinking of resources, which we could come back with the whole idea of, of AI and all the workplaces are going to change. And I certainly agree that relationships and relational leadership, Self And Others will be a key concepts, not just a concept, a key practice for the future of us for for the better future of us. So I would be happy to explore these topics. In our next conversation, if you are up for it.

I'm really up for it. If I may just say at the end here, my my, the first book was based on my research, but the second book is based on research of actual case studies that have that I that I've experienced and have been generously donated, so that we can pick those apart and look into those and help people to think about Yes, I've been in that situation, and maybe look at it in a different light in a relational way.

Sounds interesting. So yeah, we'd be happy to talk about your next book as well. And even before that, I think there are a number of topics that we've just raised right now. And I know that we share ideas around sustainability. We have a chat about climate change and green things. I would be honored to have a conversation around those as well with you in the future. Thank you very much, Liz for joining me today. It was a pleasure to have this conversation with

you. A total pleasure for me Solly Thank you for listening.

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