Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 6 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

This is the Second part of my chat with Mike Jones, he's the founder and chief at Better Happy - who enables organisations to develop healthy, motivated, high-performing managers, safe from burnout,

In this episode Mike talks about the better happy approach - and we chat about topics that are very important to us both - including our view that workplaces are optimally placed to make a meaningful impact on happiness and wellbeing and that culture can be massively influenced by leadership role modelling. We also talk about the impact of ACT on Mike and also why the ACT segments are the most rewarding part of the training he delivers.

He truly is a man on a mission to make a difference.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• "Why We Are Not Acting to Save Ourselves: ACT, Health, and Culture" - PMC - Ruth Anne Rehfeldt and Ian Tyndall
• A short video from Better Happy about Travelodge Limitless - Managers and Senior Staff Development Program
• Here's Mike on Instagram
• Connect with Mike on LinkedIn
• The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama - Wikipedia page
• From Better Happy - Managing Health and Burnout: A Guide for Managers - Video 1 of the Happier Managers Video Series
• You can find the Better Happy Website here

Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast

Leave a review as a WhatsApp voicenote on +0034696636487

Ross' new website

Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE

Ross on Twitter

People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life

People Soup Page on Facebook

And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn

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[00:00:02] episode six

[00:00:06] Mike: it's so eye opening for people. it's a transformative process. And maybe I thought before doing the sessions, you know, is it gonna have the same impact on these high level, well experienced professionals that it did on me? And I delivered one session and I was like, wow, everybody is dealing with this CEOs, senior leaders.

[00:00:37] Ross: Pays. This is the second part of my chat with Mike Jones. He's the founder and chief at Better Happy, who enable organizations to develop healthy, motivated, high performing managers who are safe from burnout.

[00:01:08] Ross: We also talk about the impact of Acton Mike and also why the ACT segments are the most rewarding part of the training he delivers. He truly is a man on a mission to make a difference.

[00:02:04] Ross: Well, thank you to Michael and Jim and to everyone who listened, shared, rated, and reviewed Your support helps us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Mike

[00:02:22] Ross: So Mike, I really wanna dig into what you do at better happy your approach. And I'd love to start with your views on the importance of the workplace. Cause it's something you've, shared on social media, but also in our conversations. Just talk to me about that. Cause I think it really resonates and I think it's really important.

[00:02:39] Mike: I believe that Western develops societies such as our own, that the workplace is optimally placed to make a meaningful impact on the happiness levels of, our society. And that by so, businesses will be better. The economy will be better. The world will be a better place. And the reason for that is so many of the basic needs that we have for happiness are now really only found in the workplace.

[00:03:26] Mike: That's really important. And without religion or hunter gatherer tribe, where do you find that? Where do you find that. Tribal desire to be with others and work towards something meaningful. And for many people, that's the workplace. Hence the reason a lot of LinkedIn data is now sharing that employees are, or potential employees are placing as much value on the values of a company and the mission of a company as they are the salary that the, the role it offers

[00:04:07] Ross: Some people do they'll have hobbies or interests that, help them form community and bonds. but some their principal community will be the workplace. and that really aligns with me because I see that community in the workplace as an ideal place to, to share skills with adults that they, I can pretty damn well bet that they weren't taught when they were at school or in education that we know that can support them in their wellbeing, whether it's around their nutrition, whether it's around their, their posture.

[00:04:41] Mike: Yeah, because if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which most people have heard of, not everybody, but you can find it on Google and it, and that's always made sense to me that you humans have a, a hierarchy of things that they need. And if one, when, when one of them is fulfilled, they move to the next one.

[00:05:14] Mike: and as you go higher up that pyramid, it goes from those kind of physiological and safety needs to community needs, belonging needs, and then it moves to esteem needs. So being the best you can be and then achieving what you can achieve with your life. And I think as a society, we've all moved higher up that pyramid.

[00:05:48] Mike: And now it's not. So even when things are bad, they're still way better than they used to be. So I think the workplace is optimally placed for that to help people figure out who they are, what they're good at belong, make the most of their [00:06:00] lives be, you know, make the maximum impact. But then the workplace is also not incentivized, but optimally placed, I would say again to try and help their employees with health because yes, that's gonna make them better employees, which is a positive, but if they don't help them with it, the chances are fairly high that they're gonna suffer with poor physical and or mental health.

[00:06:34] Mike: So. It's the place to really do something about it.

[00:06:56] Ross: I'm pretty miserable and counting the days before I can retire. And that could be years in advance. And it's almost like people check in their brains at, reception or their souls and they're disengaged and unhappy. And it's this Abraham Maslow quote that really came to mind when we, you were talking.

[00:07:20] Mike: Yeah, that's fascinating. Isn't it?

[00:07:37] Mike: Yeah. there's certainly people that don't have any aspirations to get really high in their careers and make loads of money, but I don't think there's many people that are truly happy just going into work. 50% of their waking hours and just doing what's required of them to pay their bills.

[00:08:07] Mike: I think if you're not doing that in work, you're not fulfilling those evolutionary basic needs of being a fulfilled human being.

[00:08:32] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I'd agree with that. I think it's dangerous to tell people all the time that you have to have a job that you are super passionate about and that it's gotta be the perfect job, because actually there's no such thing as the perfect job. And as long as you are using your career to improve the quality of your life, not just through the pay, but you know, maybe it's to cuz that allows you time to, pursue your hobbies.

[00:09:09] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. So, help us understand the better happy approach. what are the pillars of your method?

[00:09:31] Mike: Are you linking the work that people do to the bigger picture so that they feel like it's got some meaning and value? That's like the really, really simple way of summarizing the business part.

[00:09:40] Mike: Then there's a leadership part, which is do the people at the top of the company that others are looking up to.

[00:10:02] Mike: And it doesn't matter how many positive interventions you put in place for the staff. They're not gonna be able to get past that culture that's being created higher up. So those are the two pieces for the business. And then for the individual, it's all around health.

[00:10:44] Ross: it's very holistic this approach. You're talking about nutrition, you're talking about exercise and I don't think we can ever separate these things. I sometimes talk to organizations about some of the work I do, which is bringing the, the skills from ACT for, resilience and mental health and feel that I'm missing other bits of the jigsaw.

[00:11:04] Ross: For instance, that's not gonna impact on a toxic environment with a leader. Who's not role modeling what we want to role model.

[00:11:19] Mike: Yeah, but I'd say there's pros and cons to, to both of those things. Isn't there. I think you can be so general that you don't make progress, or you can be so specific that you miss other things. But I do think, and I'm not just saying this cuz of the podcast. I do think that there's obviously requirements on both sides.

[00:11:50] Mike: And you're like, well, no, the company should do what it can to support the health and happiness of the employees. But. Equally as much, the employees should be put an effort into support on their health and [00:12:00] happiness. And if the business is doing loads and doing all of these different incentives and perks and learning opportunities, but then the employees aren't taking care of themselves or showing initiative, then it's never going to work.

[00:12:11] Mike: And I think on the employee side or on the individual side, the most important area is the mind. And I think A C T is the place to start because people know what to do to be healthier. They do. Everybody knows that they can eat less chocolate, eat more apples, move a little bit more, you know, every, every person on the planet bar, very few know the basics of being healthier yet navigating the mind in the modern world requires a level of understanding.

[00:12:52] Mike: But if the mind's off, even if you know everything about being healthy, you're not gonna go and pursue the health stuff because you are doubting yourself. Cuz you're beating yourself up because you're depressed cuz you're not happy. Cuz you've got no energy cuz you are not feeling positive ever. So I think the mind is, the place to start.

[00:13:13] Ross: Peace Supers. I'm just interrupting this broadcast to highlight a paper that speaks to this very point. It's by a friend of the show, Ian Tindel from the University of Chichester and Ruth Anne Re felt from the Chicago School of Professional Psych.

[00:13:42] Ross: and I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but let's head back to the chat with Mike.

[00:13:48] Ross: so in an intervention, like travel lodge, this is where we first connected. And you were interested in act. When did, when did you discover act, tell us about that.

[00:14:18] MINDFULNESS AND MEDITATION

[00:14:39] Mike: You know, I've sat in meditation for hours. I can sit and not trying to boast, but just to highlight that I've got experience, I can sit for no problem for an hour in meditation. But It felt like something was missing. And I didn't wanna go to businesses and talk about it either to be honest, because I think going to people that are stressed at work and saying be more mindful is a you're gonna get stuff thrown at you.

[00:15:10] Mike: And it wasn't, enough for me.

[00:15:31] Mike: Who's popularized A C T And even though I'd heard it many times before through my living on monasteries, you know, you don't just learn something due by hearing it, once you have to hear it repetitively, you have to go through challenges to, to really learn something. And I think after that moment and having that burnout with the gym and having that session with that psychologist and then reading the happiness trap and being where I was at with, but happy reading it and hearing that message again, it's completely normal not to be happy.

[00:16:19] Mike: But it's not. It's not a great practical application to the busy, modern life. And often if you get deep into the mindfulness stuff, you end up convincing yourself that the best thing to do is to go and live as a hermit somewhere. So you can be more mindful. And that, again, isn't practical, if that's not what you're going to do.

[00:16:55] Mike: That's really important to me. Now I can see how having a bit of mindfulness can help me start to understand how the negative stuff I have in my head is a barrier to me getting where I want to get to as opposed to just being aware of it. Cuz just being aware of the fact that I tell myself. I don't feel like I'm good enough to do this thing.

[00:17:26] Ross: Yeah. It's great to hear you. You talk about how you discovered that cuz then you and me work together on for instance work you you're doing with travel lodge to build that for people to, to share those skills. and you've said to me before, One of the most rewarding parts to deliver.

[00:17:50] Mike: well, as you mentioned, it was great working with travel lodge because they really are willing to invest the time, to their people. So lots of companies will invest money, but not so many will invest time because all [00:18:00] companies are busy travel lodge, especially, and they were willing to commit, you know, three, full days for the, for this population of employees that they were working with.

[00:18:21] Rewards of delivering ACT

[00:18:40] Mike: Gradually improving your sleep, improves your life gradually. But with the A CT stuff, you are making a difference to somebody's life in that 60 minute or 90 minute session that you have, right. Then you can see them having realizations. You can see when you share your own examples of things you struggle with and how you can improve that.

[00:18:57] Mike: You can see them going, wow, I'm not the only one that's like this. And then the room comes to life and people start sharing their examples. And it's like a massive weight off people's shoulders, cuz I know, cause I've done it myself. People spend years walking around with these voices telling themselves that they're the only ones and that there's something wrong with them.

[00:19:22] Ross: there there's an immense skill in, in what you do there in, in creating that environment where people can feel comfortable. And my sense is that comes from. People like you and me disclosing what's going on between our ears, because people will be thinking, Hey, this dude's the facilitator. He he's got it sussed.

[00:20:04] Mike: Yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:20:06] Mike: I probably haven't told you this, but. when you and I started working together and, and you shared resources with me and we built this package out for travel lodge, you shared some of your, examples on the, A C T matrix, which is a tool where you, you basically go for this process of noticing what you're thinking and then plotting out what that leads to what you can do about it. What voices come on on the inside. Obviously I'm not telling you this Ross. I know you know it, but for, for your listeners. And I was reading for your examples of this, because you talked about how it's really important to share your examples, cuz that helps people feel more comfortable. And whilst I was reading your examples, that was probably one of the most therapeutic moments of, of the last 10 years of my life.

[00:20:59] Mike: That was my moment of, wow. Yes, this is completely normal. Even Ross, the psychologist goes through these things and that was more therapeutic for me than, and I'm not putting, the other psychologist down, but that was more impactful and therapeutic for me than six sessions with a psychologist trying to dig into what's my childhood.

[00:21:32] Mike: I don't feel like I did, but did seeing that other people struggle with this and that it's perfectly normal and that there's a way past it. Did that help me? Yes. It helped me exponentially. Cause it gives you, it gives you actionable steps forward. So seeing your examples was probably one of the most therapeutic things are positively impacting things that I experienced, which I then went on to do in those workshops, which I saw doing the same thing for the people in the room.

[00:22:08] Mike: Hmm.

[00:22:20] Ross: It's so identifiable. And what I particularly loved was that he was saying like, this is the human condition. Your mind is gonna do this. And that's normal. and you can still choose to move forward in, in ways that have personal meaning for you. And that was it like, boom, I'm sold. I get

[00:22:40] Mike: it's such an important message.

[00:22:58] Ross: respond to the challenges of work more effectively, then my God we've got kind of an urgent mission here.

[00:23:22] Mike: Whereas actually, if we just, if we had a process to help us understand what's going on internally and how that's blocking us from being who we want to be or doing what we want to do, the weight of the world is lifted off your shoulders.

[00:23:49] Mike: Yeah, it it's so eye opening for people. it's a transformative process. And maybe I thought before doing the sessions, you know, is it gonna have the same impact on these high level, well [00:24:00] experienced professionals that it did on me? And I delivered one session and I was like, wow, everybody is dealing with this CEOs, senior leaders.

[00:24:34] Mike: And just hearing that that's normal, everybody gets it and that by accepting it and looking at a plan to get around it, you can deal with it just learning that is transformative for most people. Just that lesson alone.

[00:24:50] Mike: We're just gonna carry on trying to do what we're trying to do. I think we're looking at currently putting an option in there for working professionals to come straight in. So even if their business isn't doing anything with us, we'll have like an option for the professional that wants to be healthier,

[00:25:10] Mike: So we think we're gonna have an option for the, for the busy professional, but we're still working with businesses and trying to make the world a happier place.

[00:25:35] Mike: I think we're both excited about that. I know it's gonna happen. It's just, um, making it happen. Isn't it? It's the, the exciting part of business, which is offers marketing, getting in the right place. You know, all of that stuff that kind of gets in the way. If we could just throw the passion out there and have the customers lining up, that would be great, but it, uh, takes, it takes a bit of building work.

[00:25:54] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. What keeps you going in your mission at better? Happy?

[00:26:18] Mike: Why are you doing this? Look at the mission. Yes, this is what's needed. And what you like, look at the difference you've made before. And I would be a bad person to not highlight as well that I have a very supportive, encouraging partner who I really can ask for more. She never, puts pressure on me to go and get a normal job.

[00:26:53] Ross: Wonderful. Well long may your peak headed, stopping this continue. I think the impact you're having in organizations like travel lodge for example, is, is phenomenal. That feedback. and if you could offer a takeaway to our the, the P supers, if you have anything that you would leave them with to think about or reflect on or a top tip.

[00:27:41] Ross: I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I would applaud if I wasn't so close to my microphone.

[00:27:48] Ross: Yeah, I'll put it in afterwards.

[00:28:08] Mike: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. I always love chatting to you Ross. it's a joy.

[00:28:32] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:29:08] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:29:35] Ross: well I think you've got a natural voice for, for podcasts,

[00:29:41] Ross: me too, mate.