In this episode we discuss the Jing Fang, the classic formulas, as they are being used by Dr. Huang Huang in the modern clinic, along a look at how some of our oldest medicine helps to throw new light on the importance of the digestive system and human biome.

Listen in for a wide ranging discussion that covers the challenges and rewards of studying in China. How some simple formulas from the Shang Han Lun are not so simple once you begin to dig into them, and what it is like to do a Ph.D. in China.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold

itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our

medicine did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies.

It arose from observing nature.

And our part in it east Asian medicine evolves not from the examination

of debt structures, but rather from living systems with their complex

mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to chia logical.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

pertinent to practitioners and students of east Asian medicine, dialogue and

discussion have always been elemental to Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

Hey, y'all welcome back to qiological.

I'm really psyched to be sitting down with my pal around Evan today.

Iran is an acupuncturist and he's an herbalist.

He's in the ridiculously beautiful port moody area of Vancouver,

British Columbia, where he runs the Rocky point wellness clinic.

He's also a translator.

He did the, uh, , uh, co Goa, right?

Go up funded.

formulas from the golden cabinet with songs, it sounds kind of like a musical.

This was published by the Chinese medicine database and he's published

translations in the Lanter and the register of Chinese herbal medicine.

He's got some other publications that he's been in.

You can find this stuff on his website today.

We are going to talk about.

Actually, I don't want to what we're going to talk about.

Today's free form Thursday around, and I often just hang out and talk about

medicine and some of the time when we're hanging out, I'm thinking, man,

I wish I had the recorder on right now because this guy's brilliant.

So Heran welcome to.

Qiological Hey, Michael's great to be here.

Good to see you.

Yeah,

it's good to see you too.

This is so fun.

You know, it's this opportunity that people kind of eavesdrop a bit.

Maybe bring them into the conversation.

Free-form Thursdays.

Freeform Thursday coming from a place of emptiness.

So I want to start off with, as we were talking just before we hit the

record button, you were mentioning that you're headed back to China

and you spent quite a bit of time studying in the middle kingdom, right?

Yeah.

I'm wondering, is it all it's cracked up to.

In what, in what way?

In a good way or bad way.

Well, you know, we often hear people saying, oh

yeah, I want to go to China.

I want to study, you know, I w I want to go to where the medicine

came from and you've actually spent a fair amount of time there.

I'm wondering your thoughts on this?

I think it depends.

I, I totally, I understand the question.

I think it depends.

I think that, you know, people have this idea.

You know, you're going to go there and you're going to, you're

going to drink from the well and, uh, and see where it all began,

which I mean, in a sense is true.

And I think it depends on the teachers you work with.

I think it depends on, you know, if you're involved with an organization

over there, I think that there there's kind of two sides to it.

I think that there is the aspect of, there's not a, not a show or

a performance, but it's a, you know, it's, you're not getting

the true, true essence there.

I think that, you know, because of the concept of saving face there

and stuff, I think sometimes they want to show the westerner more

than it actually is in a sense.

And I mean, you, you also get teachers there.

Their intention isn't necessarily to teach.

There is the money aspect there as well.

And I think it also depends on the style of medicine you're, you're interested in.

I, you know, I've been, I've been very lucky the years that I've been going

back and forth to China, uh, I've always been connected with really great

teachers that are on paths that, you know, similar to where I want to be.

And, and, you know, teachers that I want to emulate and stuff.

So I've been very lucky, but I've heard horror stories as well.

You know, where people go there.

They never really, they don't understand what's happening.

They never really explained what's happening.

They, they sit in with doctors who write formulas that have, you know, 20 to

50 herbs in there with no, no logic or no rhyme or reason to these formulas.

And then they come back more confused or feeling like, you

know, Hey, China was cool.

I ate some really interesting food and I saw some really interesting

things, but it didn't really shape or change my view of the medicine or

really opened things up for me and potentially even left you more confused.

Right.

So, and I hear that a lot actually from a lot of people who, who will jump

around to the different wards and stuff.

See a little bit of this, a little bit of.

But never actually leave with any form of any substance or anything

that they can really take home and utilize in their clinics.

Right.

Okay.

So yeah, I remember in some of the time that I spent in China, especially in

the acupuncture clinics that I'd see things that to me as an acupuncturist

were interesting, but in terms of taking some of that back home and using it on

patients in the west, there was no way that I was going to attempt to treat them

in a way.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, liability issues for sure.

Yeah.

I mean, we saw a ton of, I mean, years ago, this was in Beijing.

I haven't actually spent time in an acupuncture ward and

oh gosh, at least 15 years.

But when I originally did and lived in Beijing, we did a lot of fire

needling, but like, you know, the intense fire needling and, uh, and,

and some of the, the bowel, Jen, you know, the, um, the knife needling, I

don't even know what the term for it, but you know, where they, they, they

needed with these stick blades and.

Uh, it's pretty wild.

And I, I I've, I don't think I've ever used any of these techniques

in the last 15 or so years.

I remember one patient where I did fire needling on it and I

was still uncomfortable and I had them sign a bunch of stuff and

it's just the liability issues.

Right.

So, and that's, that's, that's the cool thing.

I mean, I think if anything, somebody should at least spend a day or a couple

of days or a week in an acupuncture room, in a hospital in China, because.

Even if you don't learn anything, it is a sight to see.

I mean, it's kind of like going to Cirque de Solei.

You should experience it at least once, you know, it's, it's, it's wild,

you know, and if, and if you're lucky enough to have a great teacher who

explains things and lets you needle and lets you pop it and lets you do

things and all the better, all the

better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's the things like liability.

You know, there's also, sometimes the technique is so brutally strong.

I remember seeing this guy in Taiwan whose specialty was doing all these

points around the eyes and around the face and, oh my God, it's

just, I mean, his clinic was busy.

He was very, very, he was incredibly busy and I would watch him put needles in

people and they would just sit there and.

I mean, sometimes you get tears leaking out of their eyes.

Right.

Because it's just so painful, but he's the famous doctor.

So you can't say no.

And you can't, you can't show that you're not appreciating it, right?

Yeah.

You know, I I've wondered a lot about, you know, I just, when patients ask and

stuff about the technique and stuff, where they've experienced other acupuncturists

that have a stronger, more aggressive technique than I do and stuff, you

know, you wonder if, how much of that.

Effective, you know, that, do we need to be that aggressive?

Because if, you know, look at, look at what they're doing in Japan, right.

And the style that comes out of Japan, it's so gentle.

And you know, a lot of times you barely feel the needle and yet they

still get these amazing results.

Right.

So it's something, it's something I think about a lot, you know?

Do, do we need to be this aggressive cause yeah.

I mean, I've seen, I know what you're talking about and I've seen some

really intense, really aggressive horror movie, like situations in

some of these Chinese hospitals and.

I mean, is that necessarily right?

Or is it just a cultural thing?

You know, I mean, I think it's probably a much deeper question and probably

an entire podcast can be devoted to this question, but, uh, it's an

interesting phenomenon I do wonder

about yeah, I will.

And when I look at, well, my own work, for example right now, um, partly because

I'm not like a Chinese farmer, so.

Needles for me.

I mean, a little goes a long way.

And so I tend to be pretty sensitive to them.

And I know that most of my patients coming in, of course, their first

question is, is this going to be painful?

And you know, I've been at this for 20 years and okay.

You know, I don't always help people, but it seems like I help people enough

that it's like worth doing this.

And my technique is fairly gentle.

I mean, I've had some background in China.

I'm sorry.

Well, both Chinese and the Japanese work, I found that it's possible to

slide a needle in pretty gently and then like work it to where you want it.

And then like slowly, turn it up and bring it on.

You can, you can get some good Dutch.

Yeah, you don't necessarily have to levitate them in, you know, waste their

way cheap by making them sweat, perfume.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I totally agree with that.

And I mean, that's, that was my, that was my teacher style.

And she w you know, was a Chinese woman trained in the Chinese system, but also

spend a little bit of time in Japan.

And I think the beauty of what she did was she kind of blended the two worlds

where she, you know, she knew when to be aggressive or, or knew when to be like,

Tough on our patients, but also knew when to be gentle and could put a needle in,

into a, you know, a six month old baby.

And that baby would never even notice it.

And she had this incredible style and it's, it's something that

I've always tried to emulate.

I mean, it is my goal to, to be even, you know, 5% as good as she was right.

You know, so it's, it's a beautiful thing.

I think that if we can kind of incorporate the tool, it's

probably the best way to go.

Well,

you know, you bring up a really good point here too.

We're just talking about China, what it's like to be there,

what it's like to learn there.

And, uh, you know, it can be pretty hit or miss.

I remember having some herbal clinics.

I sat in on with some very, very young doctors who were.

Really not interested in the tongue or policy.

We're interested in what herbs did from a scientific, here's what

we did studies on perspective.

And they actually prescribe herbs that way.

I mean, there are, there are people that outlay and then, you know, there are

people that work very, very traditionally.

So sometimes you get lucky and you, and you get someone like

your teacher who gives you enough to think about for a lifetime.

Right.

Speaking of Japan, you hang out these days quite a bit with Dr.

Wong Wong who

speak Japan, right?

I mean, he's not Japanese, but he spent quite a bit of time there

and it's been influential in his work.

It's been absolutely influential.

He spent, he spent a number of you.

I think he went in the late eighties to finish.

Maybe his masters or to do some, some, some work over there.

And then we ended up going back and doing his doctoral degree

at a university in Japan.

And, uh, I mean he spent years researching the old Japanese, uh, gene fond doctors

and, uh, and looking at compost style.

And I think that's hugely influenced his work now, hugely just with

his whole constitutional work and, uh, uh, total Yoshimoto and stuff.

And, uh, I think he's, he's really influenced by the Japanese.

Absolutely.

Absolutely doing a PhD with him

right now.

I am.

Yeah, I am.

I started that in 2015.

So I started about three years ago and I've got basically told March

of next year to finish my thesis to, to basically defend, defend, defend,

defend the title and, uh, and hopefully.

Hopefully, hopefully graduate, but it's, it's, it's been an amazing experience.

I mean, it's really, you know, my, my times of going back back and

forth to China are really incredible because spending time with Dr.

Vaughn and I mean, you, I know, you know, Dr.

Long personally, actually, I wouldn't have known about Dr.

Guam as this as a sidebar.

If it wasn't for your old blog, the, uh, Was it classical, classical foreign.

Yeah.

Way back when, and then I remember reading way back when, and then I remember reading

about his, uh, showed that they found that I knew you were in the process of

potentially translating it and stuff.

So that's, that was my first introduction.

And that probably would have been 2008, 2009,

probably a little bit earlier.

'cause it, it came out in 2009.

I'd been working on, I think since roughly 2006 ish.

Oh, then it must've been around then.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

My show dilate fun is a, is the first V is the first, uh,

publication, the first published one.

So, and when I bring it to China with me, people laugh and they're

like, oh, you have such an old one.

And, uh, it's the tiny little one.

I don't know if you've seen a more recent one, but it's a lot bigger now.

Um, He's added some stuff to it, but it's, I love that.

Is he

in a third printing with that?

Because I translated out of here

third or fourth.

Oh really?

Oh, you did this.

You did the second.

Oh, okay.

I think there's at least the third or fourth.

Now

when I go to China, I go to

copy.

I could be wrong, but I believe it's at least the third edition.

So I thought you did the first edition, but, uh, that's interest.

Well, I started with the first edition and then as I was starting to

get into it, the second edition came out.

So we're like, all right.

Let's let's might as well.

So I, I kind of read both of them simultaneously.

Right,

right.

That's that's great.

And I mean, it's like little, subtle little bits that change, right.

I mean, a lot of the core information is still there.

But I think he just adds a little bit here and a little bit there,

and that's essentially all he's done for, um, for these latest additions,

but it is a little bit bigger.

So, you know, and I haven't combed through the entire thing.

So I haven't really been able to find exactly what the differences

are, but, um, there may be a few more formulas in there as well.

I know that.

Absolutely.

The fun thing about doing that book is that I would often have questions and

long, long is like really good on the.

So I'd have a question.

I'd like email him a question.

I'd have an answer back.

If it took more than 24 hours, he was either sick or out of it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's so that's it.

It's no longer email it's now it's we chat and he's, he's quick on the wide shots.

So you're talking days of email, way back when right now it's

everything is done through each ad.

I mean, And I mean, you know exactly how it is, right?

It's so pervasive in the culture there right now.

That's, if I have a question, you know, for the Dean of graduate students at

the Nanjing university, I can send her a, we chat and get a response within,

you know, sometimes three minutes.

It's pretty wild.

Actually, the, how it's taken over.

And Dr.

Kwong is so generous with his time.

And, uh, even, you know, sometimes I'll send them through.

Seemingly silly questions and stuff.

And, uh, and he's generally pretty good about responding very quickly and,

and having this really great insight and, uh, you know, where you're like,

oh yeah, I didn't think about that.

Right.

Because there's been a lot of back and forth over the last couple of

years, just with thesises subjects and ideas and things that he kind

of wants for us to do and stuff.

So, um, and he's just always so generous and every time we're in Nanjing as

well, um, he just, he really goes out of his way to make sure that.

As much clinical time with him as possible and as much as much as he

can give us busy, it's really busy.

Yeah.

It's really busy.

So I'm curious, what are you working on for your thesis here?

What are you a.

It's got your attention at the moment.

What's caught my attention.

So it's gone a little bit back and forth.

So originally what I had had w what I was starting with was kind of a

dissection and a breakdown of the shoe lout chapter, the deficiency,

taxation chapter from the . Um, and I was working on that for a little while.

And then after I did my, um, last year, I did my , my, uh, Uh,

how do you call that in English?

But it's like basically where you do your, your outline proposal and

stuff and uh, in front of the, well,

you're putting forth the subject that you want to do.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

So it's like, yeah, like your, your outline presentation, your, your, your

concept presentation anyways, w after I did that, um, you know, you get a

lot, w what's so great about that.

Is it.

You know, it's an opportunity to really break down everything

you've been working on and throw it out and start from scratch.

And it's kind of what happened to me and where, you know, Dr.

Juan will basically give you his feedback and give you some ideas and stuff, and

maybe even give you some direction.

Um, in the past, most of his students have done basically their,

their topics have been a foreign.

Where they'll do like or, uh, Glades of fooling one or some of his own formulas

that he's kind of created and stuff.

And then just break those down and give a presentation.

And I think that he's kind of changed the way he, he wants.

He, he.

What he's looking for these days is he still wants us to really kind of adhere

to the classical stuff, but he wants us to put a little bit of a modern spin

because I think that part of his objective is that he wants to see gene farm.

You know, the classic formula is really move forward.

Now, with that being said, he's not trying to biomedical realize it or turn it into.

What we see in a lot of the TCM world right now, but he wants us to

basically take old concepts and try to explain them through a modern lens and

stuff, which I think is pretty cool.

Right.

So

Juan is having you guys, so it's not, it's not the usual jerker, right?

Where it's like, we're going to take Chinese medicine and kind of

cram it into a Western biomedical.

He's asking you to take some traditional concept.

And just see, how does that play in the world now?

How can you take that and apply that to some things that we're seeing,

you know, as we understand medicine and life in, in, in the current age.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, he definitely, it's not the integrative model that he wants us to do.

It's.

It's not exactly.

It's not trying to biomedical flies the classics or anything.

It's just about the lens that we're viewing things.

And because we are, we do work in the modern day.

We work, you know, there's all this amazing research that's coming out and

we're, you know, we're understanding more about the human body with things like

epigenetics and you know, and various bacterias and stuff and how we interact

with the microbes in the world and stuff.

And I mean, we can't deny all this stuff and not that I don't practice

in a purely classical way I do.

And I still adhere to that.

But it is important to, to, to, to, you know, still study the current

kind of world we're living in.

Right.

And I mean, that's what Chinese medicine has always done.

Right?

It's, it's, it's a, it's a medicine where we study our surroundings and

we, we, we learn about our surroundings and we basically incorporate the

medicine through that understanding.

Right.

And so Chinese

medicine is the Borg.

Exactly.

Faculty, the Borg of.

Right.

And so, you know, we worked from that model.

And so essentially what he wants us to do is to look at it, you know, using a

classic formula or a classical concept, and then understand it a little bit deeper

through a modern kind of lens and stuff.

And so essentially the research that I've been doing over the last a little

while, You know, the, the thesis has my thesis, at least has been kind of morphing

over the last couple years and stuff.

And I mean, I don't even really have a title for it.

Uh, it kind of changes as I write and stuff, and I'm kind of letting it unfold

as I put my thoughts on paper and stuff, but essentially I'm studying John T I'm

studying the center and I'm studying.

You know, the understanding of how, you know, when a gut is disordered,

how that will affect the entire human body and not just manifest in digestive

symptoms, but how that affects our overall immunity and stuff, and really analyzing

the works, you know, from the fondant aging looking at , we're obviously doing

a lot of the focus on John daunting and, and the Shanghai loon and stuff.

And so I'm looking at, at the gut and I'm also.

You know, alongside that, doing research on this idea of the microbiome and looking

at how our gut flora or, you know, our bacterial talents, basically how that

influences the human body, how that can create a multitude of disorders and stuff.

Um, and I mean, essentially, you know, I should probably call my thesis,

you know, all disease begins in the gut because, and that's following

the words of Hippocrates, who.

You know, said that very long time ago, you know, well, over 2000 years ago and

the Chinese have been saying that as well.

And so what I'm doing is I'm putting a ma you know, trying to research

that from a modern perspective, looking at it through the microbiome,

looking at how a altered gut flora, how an altered gut system affects our

overall immunity, how it can manifest.

Uh, a whole host of chronic deep seated conditions and then flipping

that over and then analyzing that through a classical system.

And then now I'm just trying to figure out how to tie it all together.

Um, and the formulas that I am using, the formulas that I am using

as my basis for everything are the two of the gen John Kahn formulas.

And so primarily shout gen Jonestown and haunted syndrome.

Uh, from the Shanghai and the Jean Gray from the ShaoYin zapping them and

looking at the concept of Jen Jong, you know, strengthening the center as

the basis for this, and then trying to literally tie it all together.

And like I said before, you know, my, my entire vision and outline

isn't even fully clear yet.

It's just, it's been unfolding as I write.

And the more I write, the more I discover and the more I learn and the

more I think like, oh my God, this is.

Bigger than a thesis.

Right.

So I have to kind of narrow

it down.

A thesis is a great place to start the work.

But yeah, you could work on this for 20 years, you know it, and it's great.

So you're working out of the jingle.

Jalya, you're working with John, John James stuff.

You're bringing in lead on your end, which I mean, of course it's like,

God, wouldn't it be great to sit down with right now and have some poor Chon

and, uh, Be able to talk about how he sees the middle, because this is, this

is clearly what you're looking at.

The microbiome, I think in many ways really helps to explain a lot of the,

you know, those little snippets that we get about the earth being so important.

And everything goes back to this.

You know, I remember hearing that when I was in school and I was

thinking, oh yeah, that's nice.

Or it's in the center.

Very poetic.

Oh yes.

Our digestion.

Very important.

Very nice.

But when I think about the gut biome and what little I know

about the extensive ways that our bodies sort of dance to its tune.

Then the center B really does become just that important.

And I'm fascinated here that you're using something as simple as gins on

the tongue as, as your way of looking.

I mean, ginger, and Tanya's a simple little formula.

Is it though?

Is it a simple formula?

I talked to him.

I said, all right.

All right.

You're the expert here.

Let's let's hear

about it.

Well, no, I mean, I'm not the expert yet, but, uh, you know, I'm still,

it's, it's still a work unfolding, but yeah, I mean, what's seemingly simple.

It's truly, it can be very complex because it's just like, you know, when

we learn about grades of town, you know, it's how gender tan is, grades

the tongue, essentially with, you know, the double by show and the econ.

Um, you know, we learn about going to Taiyang as like, oh, it just treated

the common cold, you know, if you're a weak person and you have a common cold

take, Wade's a tongue, but you know, it's so much bigger than that, right.

Because.

I mean to draw the parallel between, you know, the center chief and the microbiome.

I mean, if we look at the function of the microbiome and, you know, we

understand that it has this, you know, really, really incredible effect on.

On our immunity on our, you know, our ability to kind of break

down and assimilate nutrients.

And we, you know, we, we see that it has an effect on processing

and digesting vitamins and stuff.

And we read about the more I read about it in the more I understand it, the more, it

just sounds like spleen function, right?

I mean, that's, that's what, that's what the spleen does.

Right.

It breaks down it assimilates it transports it's trans it transforms.

Essentially extracting the vital S the, the, the weighting from our

food and stuff, and transforming it into cheese and, and blood and stuff.

And so, you know, it gets me very excited when, you know, I mean, maybe

at the end of the day, I mean, maybe, you know, they didn't really know about

the microbiome 2000 years ago, but they understood how the body was functioning.

They understood physiology.

R a physiologically based medicine.

And so while they didn't make it, maybe they didn't call it that.

I mean, the microbiome obviously existed.

Our bacteria sure has changed over the years with, you know, with

the advent of modern technology and food changes and stuff.

And environmental factors everything's is transforming

a lot, but it was still there.

It was still present.

And so I think that it's probably safe to say that on a very basic level.

I mean that the.

Uh, a big part of the microbiome's function is essentially the

responsibility of, uh, of the TaiYin, you know, of the spleen of the stomach.

And then again of the large and small intestines and stuff.

And so essentially this work is trying to draw a very strong correlation to

that, and looking at the potential, the potentiality of treating a lot of.

Seemingly unrelated conditions, you know, to the gut with formulas like

ginger Taiyang and quantity, genuine pan and, and laying out a very strong

and solid framework for using these formulas and not just saying, oh,

you've got this kind of weird condition that we don't know what it is.

It takes out Jen, John Taiyang.

I mean, obviously there has to be a framework for it, and obviously

there'll be other formulas too.

Um, but for the purpose of this thesis and the purpose of this

research right now, I am just going to focus on the gen Jong concept.

If that makes any sense.

I mean, I kind of go off on these little tangents and stuff.

I mean, to me, it totally makes sense.

And when I hear things like, oh, the microbiome is, has an effect it's it's

in fact, it's part of the immune system.

It helps regulate the immune system.

And then we think about Glade your tongue, right.

That's famous for what, you know, tally.

Right.

Right.

You adjust the, the, the thing in a way.

And so you look at someone like Sal gentle and Taiyang, which

is a variation of wager Tongan.

What are we doing?

We're looking at harmonizing the ING and the way, you know, it's a very

simple little sentence and we can go.

That's nice.

But when we start to look at it, especially like, like you're

talking about here, we're looking through the lens of the microbiome.

It's like, holy smokes.

There's so.

Much that might fit under this.

But if we're just thinking a little digestive thing, we might miss

the importance of, oh, this little digestive thing is not a little thing.

It as actually the thing.

Exactly.

Yeah,

exactly.

And I mean, if we look at.

You know, the pro the primary use of a formula, Sergeant John Kahn and

quanti Jen, John Taiyang, you know, ShaoYin was in the Shanghai learn,

but I think a big, big usage for it is found in the Shula chapter.

And that's kind of how I ended up here because originally

doing research on the shoe.

And trying to tie it up to this concept as well.

I came, I came to the conclusion that it's really just a couple of

formulas that need to be focused on.

And when we look at the concept of Shula, I mean, it is, it is a whole

host of symptoms and signs that are so beyond just the digestive system.

I mean, people have looked.

Auntie Ginge Hong Kong for the treatment of Ms.

Um, you know, based on a couple of lines in the gene way.

And you know, now there's also this research that's showing that,

that, you know, this concept of dysbiosis or where the, you know,

the, our bacterial fingerprint is, is affected, that it creates a whole

host of mental conditions as well, or neurological conditions as well.

And they're, they're looking at.

You know, the possibility of a mess of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and

stuff that could be potentially caused from an initial destruction

to the microbiome and stuff.

Right.

So, so it's just, it's, it's really fascinating because, and I mean, there's

so much more to it and I mean, I'm really just in the, you know, the breaking

down of these concepts and stuff.

I don't feel fully comfortable, really still learning.

Right.

I'm still in that learning stage right now, but it, the more I read, the more

fascinating gets in the more exciting.

And the more stressful it gets, because I'm like, how can I write all this?

And how do I have enough time to put all this together and stuff?

And it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely exciting.

And I'm really hoping that the more I dig, the more I find.

Right.

And so

it seems to work that way, that the more we dig, the more we find.

And as far as how you get it all done, well, our Chinese friends

would simply say my mind lie.

It's like, we just move.

Slowly.

It doesn't mean it doesn't mean be lazy.

It just means move slowly, intently in the direction that you're

headed and you'll get there.

It just takes time, right?

Yeah.

Drink a little tea on the way, you know, enjoy yourself.

Well, I drink a lot

of tea on the way that's that?

That happens for sure.

That happens for sure.

But, uh, yeah, so, I mean, it's, it's really, really

exciting research and, and Dr.

Kwan.

And the best part of it all is Dr.

Kwong is excited by it.

And I think that, that for me, that was the most important because they

didn't want to just, I didn't want to just write a thesis to graduate.

I wanted to make a contribution.

I wanted to do something different.

And at the end of the day, I wanted to make my Dow share.

I want it to be my advisor happy.

Right.

I want him to be proud of the work and stuff.

And that's, that is ultimately my goal with this paper is that, is that I can

present something to him that would make.

Happy, you know, for taking me on as, as a graduate student.

Right.

So

it sounds great.

I mean, it sounds really, it's the kind of thing that, because it makes so much sense

from our Western point of view as well.

We're able to draw some lines that we might not have seen before.

And from that other people probably get ideas and go, well, what,

you know, what, what about this?

And then.

You know, you start connecting dots that, uh, you know, once a few dots

have been connected and a pattern starts to emerge, you can see

more of the pattern that's there.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

And then in hopes that, you know, that turns into research of more formulas

because I can't, you know, this isn't, I'm not offering right now, a full

treatment of every possible condition that could potentially manifest.

I don't think that's realistic with just one or two formulas, but hopefully

that will develop after this is done.

Into, you know, the exploration of various other, can I just

go usually, you know what, I'm just going to say something here.

Like, you know, it's really frustrating.

I don't know what it is.

There might be like sunspots or something with the weather, but we've been having

a little trouble with our audio today.

So dear listeners, I'd like to bring you the best dang audio

possible, but I'm sorry, today.

It's just a little, not as up to snuff.

So please bear with.

As we get back to our show in progress here.

What were we talking about?

The last thing that I think that I was talking about was that my

hopes would be that even after this is done, after this has been published,

that it would lead to the exploration of more formulas, because I'm not

trying to offer an entire framework that treat all these conditions because

using two formulas is not realistic.

There's no pattern identification.

There's no, you know, that's not a hearing to the true style of the medicine that.

Once the concept has opened up once we've opened up new lenses, new

ways of looking at these things, it could open up the possibility for

further exploration, because I mean, in our practices, We see, we kind of

get a lot of the last resort folks.

Oh my God.

You know, it's like we see the refugees,

uh, refugees.

We do good.

Yeah, we do.

One of the things I was going to say prior to our technical

difficulties here is there's books.

If you look in the Chinese bookstores in China and they'll have books on a formula,

you can get like a whole book on . Right.

so this is a whole book, right?

And they've got all these different people that use this formula

in all these different ways.

And so I just heard you saying, well, I'm just working on, you know,

shout gen zone, tongue, and Fung sheets ends on tongue, but man, you

could do a book on each of those

abs and it already exists.

So, I mean, there's already, I've got a couple books on Sargento and kind of

like, like you said, I mean, You know, two to 300 page books on one formula.

I mean, it goes even crazier than that.

I remember in Nanjing last year at the bookstore finding a 1500

page book on twin stone on a herb.

And I mean, it was 1500 pages in Chinese.

Well, imagine what that would be

put wheels on the damn thing.

Exactly.

It's like multi volumes, right?

So, I mean, that's, that's the thing though.

I need to focus on one formula.

I can't just be scattered all over the place because essentially

I'm still adhering to the way Dr.

Kwan was used to, you know, and I mean, it's, it's, you know, and I've read

probably all of his students theses over the last couple of years, and

they're all pretty much formulas and they're all, I mean, the majority of.

Are really good.

And they break down Quan's way of looking.

There is a, just this timeline of, of understanding the formula, how

it's morphed to the ages and stuff.

So, I mean, you can, you definitely can put a book together and I

mean, maybe, you know, because has such incredible formulas that are

so multi-faceted in their usage, maybe a book is a good idea, right?

Yeah.

Just, I mean, we obviously need one more thing to do, right.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm just not doing enough.

Nothing but free

time.

I need more projects.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

My wife would love that, so yeah,

for sure.

Yeah.

I got a couple other little things I want to get into here and they're

going to have to wind it down because I've got patients I have to go see.

So anyway, I got, I got a, I got a pop quiz question for you.

I thought it would be fun to ask.

I know I've never asked anybody this question.

I'm feeling a little bit of pressure here, but okay.

You

should.

I know.

Okay, good.

Bring it, bring it.

So here's what I'm curious about.

I'm wondering, I mean, you've been at this for a while and I'm wondering if there's

anything that you believe about medicine now that you didn't believe 10 years ago.

Oh,

that's a great, great

question.

Saved it for you.

Digging deep, man.

Is there anything?

Okay, so say it again.

So is there anything I believe now, uh,

about medicine that you didn't believe 10 years ago,

but it's a great question.

I think that probably 10 years ago, maybe longer, I thought.

I don't really know.

I think it's, I think we learn about our own limitations.

Right.

And I think that school, and we start to practice, we think we can do everything.

And we either, some of us quickly, some of us slowly learn that we can't and we

can only help so many people and stuff.

And, uh, and, but I mean, I probably knew that before.

I think just something I've learned.

That's a great question.

I honestly, I.

I can't think of

anything.

Well, you, you just did think of something.

It's actually something near and dear to my heart as well, because I

remember first getting out of school and thinking, oh man, I can treat anything.

You know, I can heal the world.

I got, you know, I've got some amazing stuff here.

And, and what I've come to discover over time is that there's some things that

it's, it's like if people call me and said, you treat this, my answer is no.

Right.

I'm not even going to go there.

I'm not, I'm not even going to suggest that Chinese medicine is going to help

you with this because you're just going to say Chinese medicine doesn't work.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

You know what I, so I, so I guess, I mean, that will be my answer.

I it's, it's learning about my own limitations and realize that.

What the medicine can and cannot do.

I think that still a process that's unfolding for me.

I, I think I, I know, I mean, we're always learning, right?

I know I've said this before that I'm not really going to understand anything

until I'm on my death bed, you know, and then it'll be just like this awakening,

this moment of like, yes, of course.

You know, if you're lucky and, and then I'll move on if I'm lucky, right?

Yeah.

You know what I think I find myself doing that a lot with acupuncture

is that I know that there's a lot of people that, that say that they

can treat anything with acupuncture.

And I mean, if they can power to them, I that's not been my experience.

So I do find that a lot of times a patient will come in expecting acupuncture.

And actually this happens, this happens almost all the time and I'll tell them,

well, I don't know how to treat that with acupuncture or that's not really.

We would use acupuncture for, if you went into a Chinese hospital,

you wouldn't get acupuncture.

And then I go into my whole herd spiel and stuff.

So I think that that's been a big one for me as well, all over the years.

My practice is a lot of herbs.

It's probably 80% herbal medicine, but even over the years it's been

shifting because of the things that I see in my practice and stuff.

So I, you know, really learning about my own limitations and what, what I

can do and what, and what I can't do.

Being accepting of that.

And, you know, and not, not just attempting at the expense of a

patient's finances or patients or time.

Right.

Because I mean, our objective should be, and I tell this to my

patients all the time is to get them out of our clinics as quickly.

I don't know, you know what, it's a really screwed up business model.

It's like, I don't know any other business.

That's like, Hey, I got a customer I'm going to get rid.

I know, and I, and I tell that to my patients all the time.

I'm just, I tell them I'm the worst businessman, because I'm

really, I just, I don't want to see them as much as I enjoy them.

And they're nice people.

And I like our conversations.

I don't want them to come back.

I want them to leave and, uh, they need to get out of here as quickly as possible.

And I want to get them sorted, but I think that.

It probably is a good business model.

And I mean, I'm not, I shouldn't be talking about business.

I am not a businessman.

I am a clinician first and

foremost.

Yeah.

But you are a bit, you know what?

I think it's time for us to own this shit because, because we are business people.

If you are running a practice, you're a business.

Fair enough.

Okay.

And.

I don't think it does us a service and it certainly doesn't do our

practice a service to go, well, actually I'm not a business person.

I'm a clinician.

I'm not a business person because our practice requires

the practice of practice.

If we gave as much love and attention to our business, as we give to our

patients, we might have a whole different relationship with our business.

It's true.

Well said.

That's well said, man.

And it's taken me a long time to come to that place because

for a long time, I was like, well, I'm doing this other thing cause I

gotta, but then I realized it's not that I gotta it's that I get to.

And that changed it for me.

It's just like totally shifted a former

that's a, that's a great perspective.

I totally, totally agree with you.

You're you're a wise one.

My friend, somebody should be interviewing you.

I mean, you're interviewing everybody else.

We should.

We should reverse this on you and, uh, and set up an interview with you.

There

have been a couple people that have done that.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So, I mean, on everyday acupuncture, years ago, everyday acupuncture,

I went to go interview my first acupuncturist, Margo Rossi.

Okay.

Margo Margo is great.

She goes, oh yeah.

You know what I want to interview you.

Yes.

So I like, it's like, okay, you, you.

I actually listened to it the other day for the first time in years.

Oh, wow.

And I was like, whoa, that's that was fun.

I didn't know that.

I thought that way.

And how

has your ha ha do you find it, your perspective

changed a lot over the years.

It's, you know, sometimes, you know, stuff and then you forget,

you know, and then you come around and you go, oh yeah, I knew that, but

it, but because it's just what you do, you don't even think it's like,

It's just kind of the way you are.

And then at the beginning of this year, for those of you listening to geological

now, for the very first episode of 2018, I was going to do a little solo show

just to introduce how the show was going to be structured in the coming year.

And then my friend Paula Campanelli said, by the way, I'd like to

interview you for qiological on.

I said, yes, That's that's a more recent interview, but Hey brother,

if you want to interview me sometime,

let's do it.

I'm going to think of some really thought provoking questions.

And

I think of some crazy thought provoking questions.

We'll do another free form Thursday.

Yes.

Yes.

This should be a thing.

Hope

it, it should be a thing.

Yeah, that would be fun.

Okay.

Well, Hey, I have patients to go see and I have to go eat and lunch first.

Okay.

So.

Thank you so much for the time too.

This is really a blast.

And I hope that all of you that have been listening in, even through

all the sunspots and you know, maybe it's because they're working

on the street outside in front.

I don't know.

Anyway, I apologize about the sound quality today.

I'll try to do better now.

And Iran.

Yes, sir.

Thank you for making the time.

My brother and a maple.

Do a show in

China here.

Anytime my friend.

Yes let's let's talk.

And that would be really fun.

Let's uh, let's meet a Nanjing this, uh, the spring, and, uh,

do another show from there.