Episode 15 of The Design Journeys Podcast hosted by Chris Whyte. New episodes every other Wednesday!

In this episode, Chris Whyte chats with Tim Maclean, founder of Cognate, a design consultancy based in Bath. Tim's journey spans decades of experience in the design and engineering field, from Avon Rubber to Herman Miller and Dyson.

He shares insights on his varied career, the challenges of switching between permanent roles and contracting, and the eventual decision to start his own consultancy. With a passion for blending engineering with design, Tim opens up about the balance between the two disciplines and the reality of running your own business.

Key highlights include Tim’s transition from consultancy to in-house roles, his work on high-profile products like the US Joint Services face mask, and the lessons he’s learned from managing redundancies and building client relationships. Tim also dives into the process of scaling a design consultancy and what it takes to maintain work-life balance in an industry where hours can easily blur together.

Key Takeaways:

1. Balance Between Engineering and Design: Tim’s early career was shaped by his desire to bridge the gap between technical engineering and creative design, a focus that has remained throughout his career.
2. Transitioning from Permanent Roles to Contracting: Tim discusses the trade-offs of contract work, including the freedom and flexibility it offers, but also the lack of ownership over projects.
3. Starting a Design Consultancy: Tim highlights the challenges of starting Cognate, including the decision to leave behind a stable career, and how building client relationships has been critical to success.
4. The Importance of Networking: Tim emphasizes the value of networking and reaching out to old contacts when starting a business or looking for work, particularly in industries like design and engineering.
5. Work-Life Balance: Tim shares his strategy for maintaining separation between work and home life by renting an office space, while also balancing the demands of running a consultancy.
6. 
   

Connect with Tim Maclean on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-maclean-32115a156/

Connect with Chris Whyte on LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrchriswhyte/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Learn more about Kodu Recruitment: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://teamkodu.com/⁠

Tim, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much.

It's good to have you. Good to have you. Tim will go through your background very briefly. So University Bath or Bath, depending on which part of North or South you are, Bachelor of Engineering in Mechanical Engineering. You then joined ICG as your first role spent the kind of two and a half years or so there. This is all from LinkedIn. So do jump in if any of these dates are wrong or any of the facts are wrong. But then spend some time in Avon rubber. So believe that's the kind of

Yep.

No, no.

Face masks business is it? Yeah. Well, then you went over to PDD for three years, so design consultancy in West London. And I guess that's where you kind of got into the medical devices and then JARUS Medical is a contractor for 18 months after that. Seven years at Herman Miller. So a bit of a complete shift there. So from consultancy to in -house medical to then

respiratory protection.

Yeah.

Okay, yep. Yep.

desks and kind of furniture, office supplies. Yeah. And then you joined Dyson eight years at Dyson kind of working through the ranks from senior engineer into engineering manager and we'll touch on that shortly. After that 2020 you joined the imagination factory kind of getting back into design consultancy. And yeah, we could talk about some of the interesting stuff they're doing. And then 18 months ago you founded

Yep.

Yeah.

So your own design consultancy, brings us kind of up to date. Have I missed out on anything there?

Yep.

No, no, no, that's a good summary. Yeah, that's pretty much how it's been. So it's been some big companies, some small companies, you know, from some very specific products and tasks to sort of stuff that's far more varied.

Bro.

Absolutely, absolutely. And yeah, like I said, quite arranged out loads of patents, and you're definitely on the engineering side. You're a mechanical engineer at heart. And I'm working in some incredible kind of product businesses there. So why don't we rewind the clock and then take it back to the late 80s, early 90s? What kind of what got you into engineering and what why choose that path?

Well, it was an interesting one. So, you know, obviously always interested in the sciences and maths and stuff just at school. But I used to do a lot of art as well. So I quite like the design side, but I ended up doing maths, physics and chemistry for A levels. But I didn't want to drop the design side. So I actually went and did an art foundation course in my year before I went to university. And the expectation was I was going to go and do industrial design by the design course.

Pretty.

Okay.

I had to break it to them that I was already going off to do engineering. So it was always sort of trying to keep a little bit of a balance between the design and engineering because you can get drawn just down the very technical side of engineering, which, you know, can be quite bland and very narrow. And I wanted to keep sort of slightly more diverse. And it's something you hear a lot of people talk about, like, I don't want to be too much of an engineer, but I don't want to be too much of a, you know, sort of, it's a spectrum and everybody finds their feet in that spectrum as to where they want to be.

Hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

I wanted something a little bit more middle ground basically so

Hmm. Well, and this specific courses now, I know, or they have been for some time, like with Loughborough and Brunel in particular, offering kind of that blend of upfront product design, but kind of with the DFM and the engineering kind of foundation around it. you took it on yourself to kind of craft that experience really. So that's great.

Yeah.

Kind of, kind of. But the first job I had at ITG was actually, it was called TCS at the time, but it's been through different namings since sort of, and it's basically, it was called Teaching Company Scheme at the time. So it was shared employment between the university and the employer. But there you were obliged to be on a certain amount of training, do a certain amount of studying as well as your day to day work. And actually it was great because you got all of the kind of

Okay.

Alright.

had skills and you know, sort of learn some of the actual practical stuff you need day to day, which you don't necessarily get from a particularly academic university. So just just one of those things. But it was, you know, it was really good foundation for me. But you know, it was a small company, I wanted to move back down to Bath. So I was there for a couple of years stayed on with the company after that scheme ended for a little bit longer, but then moved back down to Avon.

Yeah, running some.

Brill. yeah, Avon rubber company with tremendous heritage there. And yeah, they've been been through well, there's different branches in there around around the country. And I think was acquisitions and whatnot over the years. But the core business you're there is respiratory kind of face masks for the fire service and and things like that. Yeah.

Yeah, well, for military applications was the main one. So when I was there, we were fortunate enough to be bidding for the US Joint Services mask. And it was a time they were looking to develop their sort of design capabilities, because at the time they wouldn't they would always use what's called a copy mill. So they would make a clay effectively out of the mold. And then they would copy it effectively. And then to make the different sizes, they would literally cut it into widen it and stretch it.

Okay.

blend it all back in with the clay and then create the next tool. So they weren't using any CNC or CAD or anything like that to generate their products. So I went there to sort of basically introduce them. So we were using SDRC ideas at the time. And yeah, just basically introduced that system to them. We bid for the US mask. We weren't expected to get it but actually resulted in winning the contract. So it's quite, it's probably the

Wow.

the most well -known thing that I've designed. But my kids and family get bored of me pointing it out whenever it's on TV and things like that.

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And it doesn't seem like that long ago, really. I mean, means obviously 20 years or so. But to think that when you join them, they were still using that fairly traditional kind of method of mould making. That's incredible. then you left Melksham and Bath and you moved over to Hammersmith then, enjoying PDD. So how did that come about?

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, so there's a bit of a story about that. So I didn't actually leave Bath. So I used to commute up to Hammersmith for East Day. So it was about two hours. Fortunately, Hammersmith is the right way. but you know, not something you can probably do when you're bit younger, but not something I would advise doing over a long period of time, but really enjoyed the work. Yeah.

All right, okay.

How long did that take you?

Yeah.

So that's two hours each way. Crikey. Yeah. Yeah.

But really enjoyed the work. It was great. There's still a few people there who I know who were there when I long time ago. it's amazing. It's a small world. you cross over people in these different fields and different businesses thereafter. then, know, so, do you know so and so? yeah. You were the one who used to drive up and down the M4. Yeah, that was me.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, they've got a so my cat's trying to get involved in the podcast. She's pure eye candy. Absolutely nothing to add to the conversation. But yeah, I mean, I know what you mean about PDD. It's, it's got such a rich heritage. And yeah, the amount of people that I've spoken to, they're in really kind of impressive positions now that I've had.

you

you

PDD and their kind of career is, yeah, I've lost count of that. But it's, yeah, some great people there. So and, yeah, really remarkable to do kind of three years there. And that commute every day, because that was definitely well before kind of hybrid was a was it was even in the vocabulary, I guess, with respect to working conditions. So, so yeah, fair play. And then you went the other way, you did a contract in Jira. So

Hmm.

That's right, yeah.

Yeah, extend my M4 knowledge.

Yeah. But you know, what's your favorite service station on the M4 then?

Yeah, don't get me started.

Yeah, I mean, that was that was a it was a contract role. So yeah, so the nice thing about contract is, you know, sort of is it's good money. The downside is you don't have any real ownership, though. So you know, you don't necessarily feel you own, you know, you're not responsible for it in the same way. It's not quite your baby. So, you know, it was medical process checking out all the sort of torrent stacks and slightly more dull engineering kind of thing. But again, it was

It was convenient for me at the time. So basically had a child, which is the reason I left driving up and down to Hammersmith basically. So Cardiff was that much easier. gave ourselves sort of like just an hour commute either way. sort of, but a second child gave along. So needed to get a little bit closer at home and was fortunate enough to contact through

Yeah.

PDD had actually moved down to work for Homer Miller and he explained a little bit more about what stuff there was and what type of work and that it wasn't all just wooden furniture being screwed together. It made it a little bit more appealing. So I ended up working there with their development team.

Yeah.

Brilliant. That's always find that fascinating when you look at companies like Herman Miller and Brompton Bikes, the same as well when I've worked with those and kind of other companies that on the surface, they look like relatively straightforward products. And there's certainly a lot more interesting design and engineering challenges to be had to other companies. Or so it would seem kind of from the outlook at him. same with yeah, I this with

Brompton bikes. mean, if you look at it as someone with very little knowledge of what goes on there, you think, "well, the bike's been around for 50 years. It hasn't fundamentally changed kind of how it looks or kind of how it operates." But actually, there's a team of, I think when I saw it when there was like team of 20 design engineers working there and, you know, there's so much that goes on behind the scenes and so much future innovation. Material science, I imagine it's the same with companies like Herman Miller as well. It's like once you get in there, think

Actually, there's loads of opportunity and challenges here. I want to just rewind slightly, actually. You mentioned why you left PDD and joined JIRUS as the contract, have personal circumstances, but it's an interesting take because there'll be a lot of people right now having just left Dyson that might be contemplating contract work. that step from permanent employment

Hmm.

Thank

to contracts is always a big move, especially if you've got secure employment, like I guess you had a PDD. So how did that come about for you? Because quite often you've got a notice period, you've got to serve and the contract market moves very quickly. How did the timings work out for you then?

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, I was very fortunate in terms of it was a contract that was advertised. It was through an agency. So somebody else was, you know, obviously found the work and they were trying to find somebody to fill it. The difficulty was it was only sort of a month's month rolling contract. But I think it was sort of like, it was something like three to six months to start off with is what they were looking for. And then the nice thing is once you get there and you do decent job, then they get to know you, you start to become.

Hmm.

Right, okay.

you do start to become part of their system. So I guess one of things as a contractor is, sort of you go in, you do a good job. Actually, you become a valued piece of the system, as it were. And really, that's kind of, you know, it's a lot easier then for them to roll your contract on moving forwards. So I think I was there for quite a while, but it was only a sort of month to month rolling contract beyond the sort of three to six months. So

Hmm.

Yeah.

we'd be getting to the end of a month, I'll be giving my manager a little bit of a nudge saying, are we we still going on next month? Or do I need to be getting a few interviews in? So there's that there is a sort of insecurity that comes with it. But obviously, that's why you know, sort of the contract that you you pay, you get paid a little bit more because you don't get paid your holidays and all those kinds of things. So, you know, that's, that's, it's a bit of a balance. But it's, you know,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, well that's it and it's...

it's not for everyone but it's an option definitely you know keeps your foot in and it can lead to other things.

massively. Yeah. Well, it's the same as anything. If you're, if you're good with people and you're good at your job, you know, you build those relationships, then the, if the company needs those, those, that service, those skills, because essentially you're, you're, you're providing a service on you as a contractor. It's kind of one step short of being a consultancy in a lot of respects, a company, if they'd still need that, that kind of service for filling, they'd much rather go with

Unknown kind of entity and someone that knows the business or and as opposed to start that whole process over again So that's why you do tend to see Kind of good contractors will kind of get those repeat kind of contracts and kind of every three months will get renewed typically, you know, and sometimes they can end there for some years in some cases, but So it's a little bit more challenging now with the I 35 rules, but But yeah interesting.

So let's get this move on to the Dyson then. So you left Herman Miller after seven years and Dyson either came knocking or you went out hunting for Dyson. How did that come about?

in.

No, when I went looking, as you say, you know, sort of there is there's some really complex technical stuff in chairs and tables. But there's a bit more going on in in other products. And just wanted to sort of make that step to sort of a bit more of a technical challenge for myself. And also a bit more opportunity for growth potentially. So that was that was the reason. Oddly, I've been to a friend interview at Dyson many years before.

Hmm.

I actually took the job at Avon at the time, but I went for an interview and broadly speaking in the interview they couldn't tell me what I'd be working on, who I'd be working with. And one of the guys was questioning why I hadn't gone to do something at the Royal Academy of Art, rather than go into engineering. I was like, well, you know, sort of, so I just start my career. So yeah, so it was quite strange to then come back to it sort of so many years later.

Right, okay.

and had a much better interview with sort of much better communication. And it was great, know, sort of settled in. It's an interesting place at Dyson. And I think probably there'll be a lot of people who've been outside in the various industries and gone into Dyson. Probably described as a little bit insular that they, you know, sort of they like to do things their way. You know, a lot of businesses would go and find somebody with some experience down the road.

Hmm.

who have done it for 20 years, but Dyson would typically work out how to do it themselves. Which is great from an innovation point of view, because you're not inhibited by what's gone before or history. you know, on the flip side of that is you're having to do a lot of legwork yourself, you know, from day one. So, you know, it's definitely an interesting place, know, some fantastically clever people, opportunities that, know, sort of

Yeah.

Yeah, I've seen.

not to just spend money, but to actually progress designs in a way that you probably unhindered more than you are financial constraints and things like that in other places.

massively. Yeah, it's so interesting as well that that time difference from when you interviewed with them back in the late 90s to when you join them that business has changed so much I imagine because I spoke to one of their original kind of team members last week, Mark Johnson Bickerstaff and he's yeah, he was telling me about kind of when when he joined the business they were literally they were design consultancy.

Yeah, so yeah.

Yep.

And they were doing white label stuff. And it's like, think of Dyson now you can think of products they shift with their badge on and the different innovation that you can't. It feels really alien to think of them as anything else. But yeah, it's like the from those kind of those beginnings to then the first product and you were you're involved in floor care for a lot of time you were there but then moved into energy storage. I don't know if that's anything that you're

Yeah.

Good.

able to talk about or is it one of the kind of the kind of projects.

I don't know where it was left. So I was part of redundancies four years ago from Dyson. But at the time they took out a layer of management in that team. Whether they continue to do that, I don't know. But you know, it was again, fantastic opportunity. Yeah, I really enjoyed the floor care stuff, particularly in research. Manager there just allowed me to do my day job and some extra stuff.

Hmm.

Yeah.

which was great. And really the opportunity to go and work with the battery team was, you know, was just specifically solid state batteries. And they really kind of got themselves into a situation where they needed a little bit more structure. And I was fortunate enough to have teams of engineers, couple of teams of engineers, and some technical specialists and look after the lab as well. And a great health and safety guy considering all the equipment.

you know, sort of to set the lab up and get it all sorted, you know, really organized so that it would make a gradual progression as to what steps needed to be made. Yeah, I couldn't tell you though, what happened once I left. you know, hopefully, you know, some of that work continued.

Hmm.

Pretty.

Well no absolutely.

Thank

very present then in kind of the market there. how did that kind of how did you feel in that position? Because I guess that was the first time you've been made redundant and back into lockdown as well, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, it It was in it was the back end of lockdown. It was a little bit odd. Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of people are going through redundancy at the moment, probably have similar feelings, the way they'll kind of go through, you know, sort of being upset, being angry, not understanding. As it turned out, I was actually off the day that they were all announced. So I missed being called into the room and

Hmm.

Alright.

I found out from a colleague, pardon me, and said something's happening. It's like, okay. So that's just one of those things. But you know, sort of at the time, obviously, people say, it's not personal. I think they must be business leaders typically, because from a business perspective, it's not personal. It's kind of a decision, strategic decision that the business has decided it needs to do in order to progress, which I get. But

Crikey.

Yeah.

I think what gets forgotten is that everybody are individual people. And to those individual people, it is exceptionally personal. It's like, well, how am going to pay my mortgage? What am I going to do? know, sort of kids going to school or Christmas or whatever, you know. So, you know, at the time, you do take it very personally, I think. But, you know, sort of, they're probably all sick of hearing it. You know, there is light beyond.

yeah.

you know, sort of when those things happen, sometimes it happens for a reason, you'll go off and you do something else. Sometimes people take complete career change. And it's not it's, I think the easiest thing to think of it is, is a change. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Absolutely. Sometimes it's bringing plans forward that you may have delayed. There's always reasons to stay somewhere, isn't there? But if you're forced on it, it pushes you closer to that opportunity. think, yeah, not wanting to trivialise it because it's a very frightening experience for a lot of people. there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel. And your light was the imagination factory. So you went back over to London.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Although, were you doing that commute then or was that kind of remote then?

Yeah, I did.

I did a bit of a mix to be honest. So the second part of it was partly in lockdown. So I was one of the few people traveling around going into work sometimes. But also I would work out, I would actually stay up there as well. So again, it just comes back to who you know and where you know people from. So the guys who set up the Imagination Factory, I used to work with that PDD.

Why yeah.

Yeah, Julian Swan, one of those. Yeah, Mark Ester, yeah.

Yeah. Mark Hester. you know, sort of they knew who I was, I knew who they were. So I knew, you know, sort of what sort of things they're into. There was a couple of other guys, Roger and Tris, both from PDD. So similar background as well. So, you know, it's quite easy for me to sort of slip into working with those guys and then knowing what they're going to get back in return.

Yeah.

Massively, yeah.

It's really good fun, know, sort of just to get back into consulting, just have that variety of work really, you know, it's what I really enjoy.

Yeah, they're working on some really interesting things as well. I've seen a trend of this over the years of design consultancies spinning out ideas as well into their own kind of products or kind of separate businesses, but then using the consultancy as the designer. so there's Plasma Track being an example of that. And I imagine there's a handful of others, but...

Yep.

Did you work on the plasma track stuff while you were there or was that something else?

No, so that was really, it was basically I was moving into the sort consultancy side of the business in order that, you know, sort of there could be a bit more management of the plasma track side of things.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, because I was going to say, that's what you've had a big variety of different products that you've worked on over the years. That kind of plasma track units, something else is a very different application. so that's interesting. So, so yeah, back into consultancy two and a half years there. And then that kind of brings us up to date then. So what what led to you kind of found Incognate, which you've been doing for 18 months or so.

Yes.

but partly the commute.

So it was really an opportunity for me to move. It was one of those things like I've always wanted to do it. But circumstances are such that, you know, other financial pressures, you kind of go, well, can I afford to do it or risk doing it at the moment? The timing sort of seemed quite good. Just sort of the age of my kids, you know, sort of couldn't keep traveling up and down.

And you sort of kind of get to an age and you just kind of go, well, if I'm going to do this, I should do it now. Because, you know, if I leave it another five or 10 years, I'm not going to do it. So yeah, bit the bullet and sort of decided, right, okay, no, I'll have a go at this and see how we go. you know, that probably the it's wildly exciting and terrifying, almost in the same breath to sort of make that decision.

Yeah.

and you'll question it for at least the first six months after you've done it. But it was, yeah, I'm pleased to did, you know, sort of, so I changed, have a nice sort of 10 minute walk into work. So I actually rent a space from Matter NPD in the middle of Bath. So work next door with them. So we do swap over a few projects, so help them out with some of the technical stuff and vice versa. And

Yeah, I know that feeling.

yeah, brilliant.

Yeah, sort of it's great, know, sort of it just sort of changes the work life balance a little bit. But that said, you know, if it's your own business, and there's only one of you, when you start off, it's like there's no adjustment as to how you can adjust to resource other than more days a week, more hours a day kind of thing. And that's probably the hardest thing when you start off, I think.

Absolutely. Yeah. was gonna say, important do you think, I know you're 18 months in, how important is that link with Matter or having someone kind of that, I guess, just knowing that there's someone there that's been through it and having that kind of support network or just network, you know.

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. You know, just somebody to talk to, apart from anything else. Yeah, yeah, what's really nice is, you know, they'll just knock on the door and sort of say, could you have a look at this? And, you know, sort of what your thoughts? You know, we're not going to sort of start writing quotes and stuff for that sort of thing. But it's just what's your thoughts on this? And what about this and vice versa? You know, so it cuts both ways. And it's just nice to have that dynamic. So

what I didn't want to do was basically just work out an office at home. Because you know, sort of, I then struggled to sort of separate well, what's work and what's, you know, if I walk from the kitchen into into my office, am I then at work? It's not, it's not commute kind of thing. And the office is always there. So I really wanted it to be somewhere that I kind of go to work and I do my work there and then I come away. Doesn't always work like that. As I'm sure you know, you know, you spend a lot of time.

early doors, you know, sort of spending a lot of evenings working on things to sort of try and put the hours in to get things in place. But just to actually have that dynamic is really nice. And I've been really lucky with sort of clients as well. So you know, sort of the first few months, absolutely, you know, sort of bare bones. But the other thing was that the bare bones were from people that I've previously worked with, you know, sort of for, you know, being at Herman Miller, so somebody from there.

Hmm.

Yeah.

great guy, gave me some work, just bits and pieces. So it's enough to just tide me over. But once I got a slightly more substantial contract, just took the heat off a little bit. And then I was fortunate enough to have just slightly random sort of just contacts, start up a couple of projects. There was a guy Alex who I work with now who's became available at the same time somebody walked in the door saying I'd like to

Yeah.

Yeah.

you know, keep you busy for the next six months. So I was able to cover his costs. And then we've just stepped up from there. And as soon as you have an extra person, you've got that dynamic in terms of other people to speak to. So we've got Alex working with us, and we've got a couple of other guys who are working for me on contract, just on some other projects. So again, it's just those dynamics. Contract is not really the way I want to be working with the other guys in my team, just purely because it's, you know,

Brilliant

it doesn't give them longer term security and from my business point of view, it's not necessarily the most efficient way. But in order to service the contracts that I have, then that's what I need to do.

Yeah. it's the standard way to go as you're trying to scale or establish a design consultancy. I've seen it so many times over the years where, yeah, you have a kind of a core team of two or three kind of full -time staff and you're complimented by freelancers and contractors. And it's just that resource you can turn on and off. But what tends to happen is that when you've got that resource and you're fulfilling projects, then you get more and more stuff on. So you end up having those contractors essentially full -time, but you're paying them

Yeah.

the contract rate so that it then becomes a decision as to whether you can take them on full time or need to replace them, you know, but that's just a that's one of the pain points that every consultancy goes through at some point. But yeah, it's, it's really interesting. So happy you did it then? No regrets? Yeah. Yeah.

If

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, no regrets, touchwoods, not yet. So yeah, you know, sort of really pleased. Yeah, every day has its challenges, every day is different. Some days you feel like you go home and you've not achieved anything. Despite the fact you've been busy all day and you can't remember what it is you've actually achieved. But, you know, other days, great, you get your head down, really make some progress. So there's no one else to blame.

Good.

because it's a small startup, you know exactly what's coming in the door. you know, sort of you, you're very sensitive to how much work you have. You know, if you work in a big business, you can be a small cog in a big business. You might not feel you have the ownership, but you almost feel like well, you have a right to have your salary at the end of the day, because the bigger business is making its money. Yeah, when you're quite so close to the coal face, you appreciate, you know, sort of well how

how much, literally how much money is coming in because that's gonna be what pays you. And it's amazing how you sort of become so associated with that versus a big business.

Hmm.

massively. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's one of the, the things that you, I guess you consider, but you until you're actually doing it, kind of, you're actually in the business that, yeah, all the finances and the back office stuff, it becomes very real. And I'm slightly obsessive over my bank account and seeing the comments and goings in there and knowing kind of

Good.

Yeah.

just trying to forecast really what can I kind of pay myself? What can I invest in? When can I employ staff? It's like, yeah, this is great, but scary at the same time, because it's like, yeah, there's a lot on that. Go back to the beginning then. So you said it was kind of bare bones stuff. you had a couple of kind of small contracts on. How did those come about? Was that proactive outreach on your part or kind of?

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, so, you know, as you have to, you have to sort of put yourself out there. And it's not necessarily the part of part of work that I naturally align myself to is sort of going and chasing work. But you have to just go and answer questions, you know, sort of get in contact, grow your network on LinkedIn, get to speak to people. And it's amazing how, know, sort of somebody knows somebody knows somebody.

they don't all come, you know, there's no guarantee they're all going to come good. But you know, just go around. So I went around and spoke to, know, everybody I knew when I was maybe redundant just to because I was looking for jobs apart from it now. So that was great because that increased my network. So then when it came to actually setting up a business, you just send send around a kind of an email to all those people that you've spoken to in the last few years and just be going, you know, no pressure, but you know.

I'm available, I'm doing this now. If you've got any work, then it'd be great to hear from you or even just catch up or just stay in touch for someone in the future. And that's all you can do. You just go around and just keep kind of keeping contact with people. And fortunately, one or two people had a few things for me, which I was immensely grateful.

Yeah.

And how do you manage that then in terms of from a consistency point of view of outreach? you have a CRM system that you use or email or anything?

So I think I think managing it is probably one poorest at the moment and you can look at it. I look at my activity on LinkedIn and that's usually a very big clue as to how busy I am because if I'm not so busy, my LinkedIn activity is significantly busier. And then once I'm if I'm up to my eyeballs, then it's sort of my LinkedIn activity almost flat lines until you know, sort of

Yeah.

Alex joins, and then that gave me a bit of headroom to actually do a bit more. And then all of a sudden, you'll see a couple of flurry of spikes of activity again. It's probably been through another quiet stage, and it needs me to do a little bit more again. I traditionally, I'd always try and put like we used to the Imagination Factory, try and put a morning week aside. But, you know, again, while you're very small, if the work's there, you've got to do the work because that's what pays the bills. So, you know, it's finding the time to do it.

It's yeah, it's a difficult one. I'm in, I'm in the same boat. It's, I, I'd literally carve time out to schedule my LinkedIn content. Obviously have time out to edit this podcast and do all that stuff. And, and it's, it's a long game. You know, you never know when that's going to kind of bear fruit and kind of who might inquire, but, I see it all the time in kind of consultancy and recruitment is just generally on LinkedIn. You do see those, those

end.

peaks and troughs of activity and you can tell when someone's kind of trying to get new work in. But if you can consistently do it, think the trick is to consistently carve out even if it's just an hour a week to do something on it, that's going to pay dividends in the long run, in my experience. But you've got to be super disciplined. But then part of that's just communicating with your clients in terms of just extend your deadline by kind of a...

Yeah.

Yeah, you do.

a day or whatever to give you that time, but easier said than done. So in terms of some of the things that we obviously wanted to talk about, whilst we're recording this, obviously there's been a bunch, we mentioned earlier, there's been a bunch of kind of redundancies, a few hundred engineers and designers let go from Dyson. So there's, and then there's

Yeah.

a few other companies that have laid people off in the last month or so as well, within the design space. So not a great kind of period of time, although I'm pretty confident that things will things will pick up for the market. But we discussed kind of your experience of reviewing CVs and some kind of tips and insights that you might want to share with people that are either kind of coming out of Dyson or anyone really that's that's at any stage of their career.

So perhaps we could kind of go through some of that. You mentioned, yeah, one of your one of your bug bears is that you've got these fantastic graduate courses or degree courses and yet they're pumping out the same template of CV and portfolio.

Yeah, yeah, we used to have, I used to get placement inquiry, you know, basically applications for placement from students. And we used to use a couple of different places. So, you know, typically Loughborough, Brunel, Bath, but we'd accept them from anywhere, you know, sort of. But we had sort of links with those universities. And it was amazing to see the difference. know, sort of Bath very much a

very academic, of more based university. you'd sort of, you know, for a lot of the applicants there, they would, they wouldn't even have a portfolio. And they'd send me and then basically have a CV, but it would be the same format of CV from all of them. So, you know, it just doesn't convey any personality or anything like that. But then we'd find that, you know, it's almost the opposite from Brunel. So Brunel would be, they would send a lovely kind of

glossy, shiny portfolio, really good. You know, sort of, and it just just makes it so much easier to engage with them. Because you've got something to, you know, when you interview them, you've got something to talk about to look at, ask them questions about, doesn't have to be any great detail in it. And a lot of what I see is people worried about whether I can put stuff in my portfolio because of conflicts of interest. And it's like, well, just

If you think it's a real conflict of interest, what you've been specifically doing to what you're particularly going to just take it out for that particular application. It's just people I think get almost a little bit too hung up on, you know, how polished should it be all this kind of thing. And so you know, even if you have if you have nothing, then think of some little design problems, do some sketches, do some calculations, do some CAD make a you know,

see if you can find somebody to make a little model for you and show that it works and just put that as a little design package together in a portfolio. It's great because you can understand the design process and you can talk to them about it what happened here and why did you decide to do that. And it just makes it so much easier to be able to communicate with somebody you have very limited contact with. I mean, you'll know more than anyone how short a time people actually spend looking at a CV.

it massively, yeah.

if your CV is kind of just presentable, structured, and not too long, people will be far quicker to just, you know, take their few seconds to skim it to put it in the yes pile as opposed to the no pile. Whereas if you've got a sort of block of grey on your screen that looks the same as several other blocks of grey, the likelihood is unless there's something particularly impressive that catches your eye, it probably ends up in the no pile compared to some of the other ones.

you

That's it. it's, I think it's something like seven seconds or less is kind of the average time spent reviewing or screening a CV. So yeah, and I know from my personal experience that I'm much more likely to spend longer kind of interrogating a CV that sticks out for good or bad reasons really, as long as it's different, like you say, to the generic, if it looks like the last five CVs then.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

With the best will in the world, you're probably going to miss stuff. mean, my standard kind of approach is look at kind of the companies that they've worked out. Look at the degree course. Does it kind of stack up with the kind of things that my clients look for? Because I'm not necessarily screening against a particular job. I'm screening against a job and future jobs. So I want to know whether this person is right for my kind of my candidate pool, if you like. Whereas if you're

Yeah.

So you're more likely to get a call from someone like myself that's got the long -term vision, whereas opposed to a poor internal recruiter who's got maybe 30 jobs and they're all different kind of specs. They're skimming for keywords. They're skimming for maybe a handful of companies that have been given to them by the line manager. And if they're not sure, I think they probably go into the reject pile because it's

Yeah.

too hard work to find out because they've got another 100 to review, if not more.

So, quick question for you then, how long should it be? Because it's a classic where people say, how long? My CV is still two pages, two sides, basically.

It depends and this is a cop -out but in my opinion it depends on how much experience you have and what you've been doing. I think if you're a fresh grad you know you're gonna struggle to fill two pages anyway because unless you're putting in some imagery you know I don't want to say pad out but you know fresh grad you're talking about what you can do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can go into a lot more detail, can't you?

Yes, absolutely. If you've got 20 plus years experience, then realistically, the company is only really interested in diving into the detail of the last 10 years, if that. But three or four pages of that is absolutely fine. So long as the first page makes the reader want to carry on reading. So it's got to be clear who you are and how to contact you right at the top. know, the amount of CVs I've seen where they

Yeah.

Yeah.

bury the contact details in the footer or on the last page. It's if you make it hard, you're putting friction, you're putting barriers in the way. So front and center, where you are, and if you're applying for, if you're based in Bath and you're applying for jobs in London, then mention that, you know, right at the top, where you are in terms of kind of career as well. So your current or most recent job needs to be on the first page. There's no point.

Yep.

Yeah.

put in a load of skills and I don't think anyone reads through the skills list. Personally, I think it's it's a valuable kind of asset on your CV, so they appear on recruiter searches. But most line managers and you probably correct me if I'm wrong here, but most line managers are going to be going right, this person's worked at the Imagination Factory, they've worked at Dyson, I recognize those brands, I know what they do. They look similar to what we're trying to do.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

let's have a conversation. So I think, if you're a mechanical design engineer at Dyson, yes, there's going to be lots of variety in terms of what product you've worked on and what stage you're at, but there's going to be fundamental skills there that going to tweak the kind of the imagination of a line manager. Maybe not so much an internal recruiter who isn't as kind of well -versed on the ins and outs, but

Yeah.

I think, yeah, going back to the original question, he's like, yeah, current job on page one and then, then however many pages it takes then to, to kind of tell your story. But the skills should only be in there just as a, yeah, it's just so you appear on searches. Achievements. I think you need definitely need to work in your achievements ideally into the specific jobs. If there's enough, if you can have your headline achievements at the top in your summary, then great. But

Yep.

make them tangible, make them kind of if you've if you've increased rather than saying I've increased sales by 200 percent. So that doesn't mean anything because you need to put some actual tangible figures in there to make it real. So 200 percent, which was two billion or whatever, you know, get that stuff in because that's the that's that's the kind of difference that once they've seen the headline kind of job titles and the companies that you've worked for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

they start interrogating that, okay, this person goes from a yes to a definitely get them on the shortlist, or definitely speak to them about being on shortlist. Yeah, so I could wax lyrical about this for ages.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's interesting to hear. Yes. Yeah, I think it was one of the useful things that came out of the redundancy from Dyson was actually just sort of my CV out a little bit better. But yeah, sort of they actually worded it quite nicely to sort of so each of your job roles, you know, sort of a brief summary. So this is the business and this is what you were doing in the business, your responsibilities, and then this is what you achieved in that role. And it's kind of like, you know, it then just makes sense to people. And you can just structure in that in that way.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. good.

Mm.

Hmm.

and it just makes it easy to read.

Massively, I would highly recommend anyone that's going through redundancy. If the company is offering outplacement services like that, they're offering kind of career advice. Take it up, because even if you don't find the value in it, you know, there will be value in those things. But even if you it doesn't, if we can change it, at least you've you know, you've been through it. And then I would say speak to your peers and speak to people like myself and get kind of independent review, because

Yeah.

Again, it's like with the universities, the outplacements will have a structure. They'll have a format that they recommend. Get an opinion that's specific to your industry and try and make it stand out as well. So, yeah, I don't often get asked the questions on this. It's usually the other way around, Tim. So thank you. That is good. So what are some of the things that you've seen that over the years that have really stood out or things that people have done?

Yep.

Nah, it's alright, I thought turning rounds.

to get your attention.

fortunately, nothing too spectacular. But there's, you know, there are some, you know, sort of people who have sent portfolios in who, you know, ridiculously, you know, it's like a brochure. Yeah, and they must have taken months and months over it. And people sort of other people are like, Well, how am I going to ever get you you show it to them? they're like, Well, how am I ever going to compete with that? Well, you don't, don't need to.

And actually, you know, usually just showing a few pages of the process, really what sort of stand out. And actually, you know, people being enthused is something else that comes across as well. So usually, if I'm, if I've been interviewing people, they'll be to start with, there'll be quite a few. And we'll do sort of half now just sort of a meet and greet and introduce one another. But even just from a couple of those kinds of meetings, you pick up, you know, how

How keen are they? Do they really want this job? What drives them? What enthuses them to sort of, yeah, I love this stuff. What motivates them? And can you pick up sort what they not like doing? And there's nothing wrong with people not liking things. I'm sure you're in the same position as I am with having to do all the finance and tax and stuff of your own business. Then it's like, it's not exciting and you don't like doing it. It has to be done. But you just kind of, there's nothing wrong with saying you don't like it.

It's just, it's not your favorite thing. You get on and you do it. But what you do really like is all of this stuff. And that's where you really add value to, you know, sort of to what clients want.

Yeah, absolutely. It's like, yeah, it's not necessarily do you like doing it's like, will you do it? And can you do it? And does it affect your ability to do to do the stuff that you do like doing that you're going to add a lot of value to? So then I guess it's a business decision on okay, so how can we delegate some of that bit? I've always something that as a manager and director in my previous business is something I learned kind of

No.

fairly late on really, although that kind of, I did some kind of management training and I was forever frustrated by trying to get people to upskill kind of across the board. And then someone said to me, you know, kind of the great at some things, but they're weak in this. So let's focus on these areas and upskill you there so you can become rounder. so I thought my naivety, I thought that was the right strategy. And someone said to me like, why are you kind of trying to get this person to do all these things that they

don't enjoy they're not going to put their effort in and you're neglecting the stuff that we're really good at focus your energy on what they're great at and empower them to do that more and then find someone else to do the bits that they're not good at something someone that enjoys doing those bits and you'll kind of they'll have a better life the business I have a better time and you as a manager have a better time because you're not kind of getting wound up that someone can't do as good as you or isn't kind of kind of excited about upskilling

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it used to be a trait at Dyson a little bit. It's like, yeah, they're the ideal sort of person. We'll just keep cloning them. And it's like, well, you know, so that's not, know, everybody's individuals, they all work their own ways. have their own ways of thinking and understanding that. And then knitting them together as a good team is really sort of more powerful, I feel.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So we mentioned as well when we were preparing for this that people who take the initiative to post their portfolio to or reach out directly, regardless of whether the company's advertising as being, you know, I mean, in my experience, very few job openings are actually advertised. So you never know.

Yeah.

Yep.

What would be your advice to someone in that, excuse me, what should be their strategy if they're kind of all of a sudden looking for work?

Just just be proactive. So find out who's who works in that area. And if they're not advertising, send send them a CV and an email, you know, sort of little covering letter, whatever. So I think the last two CVs that I've had across my desk have actually they've come into Matt next door, and he's sent them my way because they're more technical. But you know, sort of whoever it is, again, go back to placements that people sort of send me the CV and a little portfolio to explain their work.

Yeah.

Okay.

And be honest, they go straight on the list because they've been proactive about coming to find me in the first place. So I know there's some get up and go about them and that proactivity that you have to have basically. you know, sort of, wouldn't, it can be a little bit depressing. So I do try and always make a point of if anybody does write to me, if it's not appropriate, then I'll say to them, you know, sort of, haven't got anything at the moment, but thank you for, you know, send your time and effort.

Hmm.

Yeah, it's a little bit more effort.

because I think that's the very least they deserve. A lot of companies won't, you won't even get a reply from them. But people shouldn't get disheartened. And you know, if you've sent it to one person, try and send it to somebody else a few months later, maybe it's gone to the wrong person or, you know, got the wrong death score, you know, it's been filed in the wrong place. But don't don't just give up. I know it can be really frustrating. But keep harassing. But equally, if somebody politely says no, then

Hmm.

Hmm.

Maybe try them six months, 12 months down the line.

Yeah, absolutely. That's that persistent pay persistence pays off. I think kind of relating it to my kind of business development and the advice I'd always give to people in my teams is I if you're only approaching one person in an organization, you're going to give yourself one one opportunity and that that message as well kind of crafted as it may be and the portfolio you send could be absolutely incredible.

Yep.

but it could be either the wrong timing or ends up in spam or in their inbox or doesn't actually get through to them. So you've wasted all the energy. if you add two more contacts in there, and there's always another contact, like worst case scenario, like you've had with Matto, it's like they'll forward that onto the appropriate person, but you're giving yourself another two opportunities for that within one organization. then yeah, companies like Dyson, I mean, you could probably have...

Thank

Good.

100 relevant contacts that might be worth reaching out to. So brilliant. But look, we're rapidly approaching time. I appreciate your insights there. It's good to get some specific advice around around CVs. But let's talk about podcasts. always ask people about podcasts and books that they read and they can recommend. So

What are your kind of go -to recommendations when it comes to the Buxwell podcast,

I'm pretty bad for podcasts, but because I spend too much time sat in front of a computer anyway. So if I get to a book, it's usually on a holiday. And I tend to like to read things that are a little bit, a little bit different, sometimes a little bit technical. Not technical from an engineering point of view. But last year, there was Super Senses that I read, which is a really good book. It's just, you know, sort of it's got

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's quite a good read when you're on holiday with your family because you end up doing lots of little experiments on them to see whether it's really true or not. And it's surprising how true it is. just people live their lives completely unaware of these kinds of things. It's quite amusing. And then yeah, SuperSense, I can't remember who wrote it, but it's all about sort of, you know, how your body sort of connects and

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's super senses.

There's this year I read Michael Mosley's Just One Thing book because that was a nice light read while I was away on holiday. And that's that just reinforced why I stand on one leg brushing my teeth and things like that. know, sort of they're all little things that are kind of whether they're health or science or just, you know, if anybody's got any recommendations, do let me know.

Yeah.

Okay.

me a note on LinkedIn because I do like to have a read but just struggle to find the time to do it.

Absolutely. Yeah, I've switched over to Audible. So I tend to buy, like, it's boring, but I like business and business books specific around sales and psychology, surprisingly for the work that I do. So my recommendation is always never split the difference by, by Cris Foss. In fact, I have it on my desk. I don't know if it's blurry. But yeah.

Yeah.

Bye.

fantastic, fantastic read just in terms of negotiations. is that but that plays into a lot of the human psychology and kind of human nature around why we do things. And they're kind of unconscious kind of decisions that we make, and just playing into those. So it's bad influence, but it's, it's kind of stopping short of manipulation and Darren Brown Voodoo stuff. It's, it's really, really good using some of the techniques in the book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've managed to this week, I've managed to negotiate a big discount on my mobile phone bill for the, or the tariff for the company. I've, I've saved money on my LinkedIn premium account. and it's, you know, all sorts of different things, all the different softwares that I use. I make it a point to try and use some of the techniques, strategies in the book. It's fantastic. I was speaking to a client earlier, who's a

Mm

small design consultancy in the Midlands and he's been ghosted by one of his clients, kind of in terms of they're getting lots of yeses months ago to kind of, we're going to go ahead with this project. I just need another week, you know, and you check in, yeah, we're definitely going ahead. I'm just waiting for the purchase order, lots of excuses. And I said to my client, said,

Yeah.

have you read Never Split the Difference? Because what he was telling me there resonated with with one of the chapters in the book where it's like, don't actually know what's going on in that person's world. You're only they're only telling you what they want to tell you in that. And they're probably there's probably stuff going on behind the scenes where they don't have control. And they're embarrassed to share that with with the consultancy. So the easier way is just to avoid that. So

there's a great kind of power play that it recommends. And when you get to that situation is to ask, just drop them an email and say, "have you given up on this project?" It's very kind of direct just one one line, "have you given up on this project?" And you get a response because it that person that person feels compelled to reply to that. And then you start uncovering, okay, what are the limitations that they're not sharing with you? And that's when kind of through the cases they talk about in the book and

kind of the people I've spoken to over the years, it's that. Then you start uncovering the barriers that they haven't talked to you about. And then you've got things that you can helpfully help them solve or not. It's OK to move on, but at least you know, then it kind of brings those problems to the front. I think, yeah, that's very specific example, but there's loads in there, especially for consultancy businesses.

Hmm.

Yeah, that book's absolute gem. So there you go. You can have that one.

Yeah, there's, I mean, for product innovation, there's black box thinking is quite good as well. And bounce is obviously quite a well known one.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah, I'll I'll check those out. The Super Senses book, I believe it's this one by Emma Young, The Science of Your 32 Senses and how to use them. Well, I'll link all these in the in the show notes. And then yeah, in terms of the kind of LinkedIn side of things, obviously, people can get in touch with you via LinkedIn. I'll share the share the link there.

That's the one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Is there kind of anything that you any advice you would give people to kind of that wanted to work with you or apply for roles kind of in the future? Because that might be kind of something you might be considering later in the year. But obviously, we've talked about reaching out. Is there any particular format that you prefer or anything that people should try?

Yeah.

No, mean, sort of like we said, make sure it's a nice, good, concise CV that's nicely laid out and a little bit of a portfolio to go with it to tell me how great you are. And then a lot of it is about your own enthusiasm and interest in that kind of line of work. yeah, that's usually how we work. So, and if I don't have anything at the moment, feel free to send it anyway, because you know, sort of the least I'll do is...

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Absolutely.

just sort of say to you, you're happy if I keep it on record for a little while. So if we're a few months down the road and I'm bombarded with project work, then I know who to come and contact.

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's like your kind of case with Alex. It's like it's just future timing. And that's my experience. That happens so often. I'll speak to someone who I don't have a role for one week and then two weeks later we catch up with because I've just had a new project coming in. That's how it works. wonderful. All right. Well, look, Tim, it's been really nice talking to you. Thank you for joining me on the podcast.

Yeah.

You're welcome. Thank you very much.

Yeah, it's great to have you on the show.