Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dr. Sarah Michaud as she delves into the complexities of codependency and shares insights from her book, Code Crazy: A Memoir and Roadmap to Freedom. Dr. Michaud recounts her personal journey and the pivotal moments that inspired her to write the book.

In this episode, Dr. Michaud defines codependency and addresses common misconceptions surrounding it. She emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries, speaking up, and prioritizing self-care. Additionally, Dr. Michaud discusses her YouTube channel, Leaving Crazy Town, and provides valuable resources for those seeking further information on codependency.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to understand codependency better and learn practical steps to achieve freedom and self-empowerment.

Tune in to this insightful episode with Dr. Sarah Michaud and discover how to break free from codependency. Learn from Dr. Michaud’s experiences and gain practical tools for setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care. Don’t miss this opportunity to empower yourself and achieve greater freedom and well-being!

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We welcome Dr. Sara to the podcast. How you doing today?

I'm doing great, Keith. Thanks for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

That's a great name. My daughter's name is Sarah, although it's Sarah Grace. So I love the name Sarah. Yeah. You can't, no, that's good. But I'm excited to have this talk with you. I mean, so many people are dealing with the things we're going to talk about today. And so I'm hopeful that we can give them some hope, some solutions to the things that is happening in their lives. So we're going to get into some really in -depth conversation. But first, we're going to kind of get to know you a little bit better for the audience.

Got it. well, you can't top that. No.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yes. Okay.

Give me the best piece of advice you've ever received.

my gosh. I guess I think about not letting anybody stop you. I mean, I guess because I think about sometimes when I was looking at some of the questions, I had a professor in college that told me I'd never get into graduate school. And I will never forget that because that really just provoked me to want to get into graduate school. But I remember thinking like so many people

Mmm.

can give people negativity and discouragement and just don't, I guess just really believe in yourself. I know it sounds so basic, but don't let anybody discourage you. That's really, really what I wanna say.

No, that's good, because I had a professor like that too, who told me that I wouldn't go very far in my career, which was a motivation for me. Like, let me just prove that, you know, prove you wrong. My response back was, I know how big your God is, mine's much bigger than that. But...

Yes. Right. Right.

Yes. Right.

my gosh, what a great response. What a great response. I mean, it is all about trusting and relying. I mean, I remember a good God moment for me was when I was applying to graduate schools and I was totally convinced that I was going to get into this place in Massachusetts. And I only got into this place in San Diego, California. And I remember thinking God must have a plan because I had no intention of moving and I ended up moving to California.

And that's where I met my son's dad. And I mean, a lot of things happened out there, but it's so hard when, you know, our plan doesn't go the way we think it's supposed to go, but it usually works out better. Yes. Right? Yes, exactly.

Right, exactly. I never planned on being in Iowa. So, it wasn't, I didn't like take him dart and go, I want to go to Iowa, but it's been a great location for me. So you never know.

Right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

I'm curious for someone like yourself who's gotten to a certain level of success, who were some role models and mentors who helped you along your journey?

Hmm.

Gosh, I remember you talking about this and that I, role models and mentors. I guess I can think about when I, well, we haven't talked about sobriety yet, but when I first got sober, I was 24 years old and the first person I asked to help me go through the steps.

was this older woman. And I remembered thinking because my mother was a drinker, I didn't really trust women or rely on women. And I didn't really feel close to many women. And that was really the first relationship with an older woman where I had to really learn how to trust and rely and connect with someone. And I think that was really significant because she gave me a lot of

encouragement and positive feedback. And that relationship really ended up helping me later with other relationships with women. I'm sure some of your some of the folks listening may have experiences like that. If you grow up with a mom who's just not available or has a drug problem or an alcohol problem. Oftentimes we have issues with that gender. So that was significant for me. Yeah. Yes.

That's special because I love how, as I would say it in my areas, that God gives us the kind of people that sometimes we didn't have growing up because he wants to show us that those people that we're missing in our life, they did have value and someone can come along and fill that gap for us that we never really expected because that really is a way of us healing some of the scars of the past by having a positive interaction with someone of that.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Absolutely.

elk, whether it's a male or female, that was missing in our life.

Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And you know, my dad was a World War Two vet, and he struggled. And he was a mentor in a few ways in the sense of even though he probably had post traumatic stress and all of these things that now are diagnosable. He really never let any of that stuff stop him and he became a success in a career. He still struggled with some anger and emotional stuff.

But you know, it's really, I'm always for the underdog. I mean, all of us, I don't believe any human being doesn't have some stuff they're trying to work through, right? We all have, I mean, you know, all the stuff on trauma now, they're talking much more about, it's not necessarily a war or sexual abuse or all these other things. It's all the little traumas that all of us experience over time. That's really what the research is looking at now.

Right.

You know, whether it's a car accident or a sibling that gets sick or whatever it is, we all have stuff to deal with on this planet. So the more we can connect and help one another, the better. Yes.

You're great. I agree with that. So in your book, Co Crazy, I love the title, it's a memoir and a roadmap to freedom. So can you share the journey that led you to write this book?

Yeah.

Yes. So this is the thing. I at a certain point in 20 years ago or so, I got married. And like I say, I just celebrated 40 years of recovery. So I've been sober from alcohol and drugs a long time, I married someone that was in recovery. And he ended up relapsing.

And what happened to me was here I was, I had a doctorate in psychology. I was an expert in addiction and codependency. I'd gone to Al -Anon for 20 years. I was sober myself. I was seeing 30 patients a week. And when this happened to me, I was struggling in a serious way. And what I thought was, if this is hard for me to figure out, then the average human being

Mmm.

must really struggle with this. So that's why I really wrote the book because I saw that it doesn't matter how much education you have, it doesn't matter how much knowledge you have, experience you have, when you're dealing with someone and in my case, and we'll get into the definitions of codependency, in my case, a husband who relapsed on alcohol and drugs, it can blow your life apart. And...

Right, yeah.

So that's really why I wrote the book because I was shocked how much I struggled because I had all the education in the world. Yeah.

So let's go right with that definition now, because we're going to talk about codependency going forward. But it's good for us to start with, how do we define that? Because if we're talking about it, I want people going, OK, what is it? So take the time to just tell us what that is.

Yes. What is it?

No, it's so true. And you know what the definition has changed over the years. And plus, the word codependency is out in the world now. And everybody just tosses it around. And they're like, I know it has something to do with relationships, but I'm not really sure what I mean, the original idea was really, you know, back in when Lois, which was Bill W's wife and out who started Alcoholics Anonymous.

Right.

realized that the spouses of people with alcohol problems had just as many problems, they just had different ones. So it really originated, you know, I mean, as far back as the 30s, I would say, but probably most 50s, 60s and 70s when it became popular. And the original definition was someone who was married to or in a relationship with an addict or someone with a substance abuse problem. And the problem with that

when you're with someone like that is your focus completely becomes on the other person. So the old definition was basically my happiness is based on what someone else is doing, feeling, thinking, saying, behaving. So I only can be okay if I'm fixing someone, changing someone or saving someone. It's all about focusing on the other person rather

than on myself and my own happiness and wellbeing. And over the years now, it's very much the same, but it's been broadened. The reason I wrote the book also is because having a practice for 30 years, I realized most of my clients were codependent. Now, they weren't necessarily married to an addict, but they had these codependent tendencies, which I saw as...

Mmm.

way more focused on what everybody else was doing and trying to change them and fix them rather than focused on themselves. And the counterintuitiveness of this, Keith, is that the belief is that if I focus on them, they're gonna feel better and I'm gonna feel better. And that's what I call the big lie. Because when you, yes, because number one, it does not work.

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

If I'm trying to change and fix someone else, first of all, they'll just resent it. And secondly, I'm going to get exhausted and I'm going to get angry and I'm going to get frustrated. So really codependent behavior makes both people worse, which is really something that was shocking to me and why I wanted to write the book that it doesn't actually work to try to change someone else. Yeah, please.

I love that. I got to ask us questions. I'm looking at the title of your book. How in the world did you get it past the publicist to call people crazy?

I know, I know. And especially because I'm a shrink, right? I mean, this is why I called it code crazy. Because most of my patients that came in with relationship problems that didn't make sense, kept feeling like they were going crazy. Because they kept doing these certain behaviors, and they didn't work. And they didn't understand why.

Mmm.

So they kept doing these things, the person would get worse and they'd get worse and it was very confusing. So that sentence, I feel like I'm going crazy, happened in my office all the time and that's why I named it Code Crazy, because you're feeling crazy in a relationship. That's just the word that people use. So yeah.

No, I love it. I just wonder like in this, in this culture, that sounds so,

I know. Yes. derogatory. Yeah, not politically correct. And I yes, and I do say that in the first chapter, especially with women, because you know, that's been there's been a whole history of women and crazy and all that. So I do say the title comes from really my clients saying it. And it's not meant to hurt anybody's feelings or upset anyone. Yeah.

Not politically correct. Yeah, politically correct. Right.

Right.

That's good.

I thought I'd give you a chance to say that so people could still buy the book and not get offended.

Thank you.

So growing up in a family with alcoholism that deeply affected your life, how did this environment shape your understanding of codependency?

Right. So this is an important question because I think again, for your audience, a lot of people grow up, my experience was I grew up and my mother was an alcoholic. My father, like I said, had PTSD and had a lot of anger problems. But I will say to folks, most people grow up in some kind of environment where the parents have some kind of issues. They don't necessarily have to have alcoholism.

But this is the paradigm that develops in Dakota dependency, where if you grow up in an environment where there's chaos, where there's people that aren't validating your feelings or experiences, where the parents are more kind of preoccupied with themselves and their own issues, that's really an environment where the kid starts to focus on, are the parents okay?

Hmm.

Is my mother okay? Is my father okay? my God, am I okay? And you start becoming hyper vigilant to your environment. So for example, if you grow up in alcoholism, one of the symptoms is you're constantly scanning. Is the person drunk? Are they not drunk? Is it safe? Is it not safe? Is that person gonna blow up and get angry? Are they not gonna be angry? So you're constantly externally focused rather than focused on what's happening for you.

And that's really the origin of codependency.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And having experienced that growing up, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, right, yes. Yeah, I mean, one of the first symptoms is you don't know what normal is because this is normal to you. So yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I tell my family, like I grew up in a family where everything was drama. So I like a no drama situation. I don't like drama. I like calm. And so I like a family with no drama.

Yes!

Yes. Yes.

Well, you know what that says to me though, Keith, that you've done some work because a lot of times clients I've had and people I've known who grow up in a lot of drama, that's what they think is normal. So they keep creating it in their lives. So I mean, the fact that you don't want drama and I'm very much like that too. I want my piece. I want communists. I want people to tell the truth. I want people to say what they mean and mean what they say. I want, you know, I want, so yes.

Mmm.

I'm all about that drama can be a big distraction to what's really happening. So yeah, good for you. I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah.

Yeah, I know that's really important. So looking a little bit more at your past, so you've been in service since 1984. What were the pivotal moments? Because people who've gone through recovery, there is that pivotal moment where the drug and alcohol addiction that you were dealing with, you found a way out. So what was that moment for you?

Mmm.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's kind of debate about this issue. But for me, I had to suffer enough. And I hate to even say that, because now people are dying, right? People take one hit of fentanyl and they're dead. So you don't want people to have to get to that point. Because if I was using now, who knows? So it's a different time now.

Hmm.

Right.

But for me, I had to be in enough pain and recognize that this was not working anymore. And that was my bottom. I mean, now there are different interventions, you know, motivational interviewing is where they try to meet someone where they're at and really talk to them about what parts of their legs aren't working and what parts of their legs are working. So, I mean, you're trying to meet someone before they hit a bottom.

My experience is it's really tough because the thing about addiction is the quintessential component of addiction is denial. And the thing about it's so, so it's one of the very few illnesses, probably bipolar is another one that literally tells you, you don't have it. So it lies to you. And it says you're fine when you're not. It says, I've only had three beers tonight. I'm okay. Or whatever, you know, rationalization.

Mm -hmm.

minimizing, romanticizing and denial are all cognitive processes, which is a way to kind of tell yourself you don't have it. So addiction is a very tricky thing. The other way people kind of can get in touch with it, like interventions, I'm sure you've heard of interventions where they go, there was a show intervention actually, right? That's right.

yeah, I think I remember the family, the doctors show up there, the family's there and they're like, and there's a suitcase and the dog does, the dog is there too. Either you change or the dog bites you and you have to get out. Yeah, I know, yeah.

That's... that's...

Right. So interventions are based on, you know, interventions help because what people do is they say the facts. So say you're doing an intervention with, I don't know, somebody's spouse, and you have the family there. And what happens is, people will just say the facts. So they'll say, Mom, you forgot to pick me up at school three days in a row because you were drunk.

Mom, you were passed out when I came home for dinner. So it's just using facts, not feelings. And that's another way to break through the denial without having someone need to hit bottom is to have some kind of intervention where people really just say the facts. And so that's a helpful way to intervene. The problem with this though is, and this is why codependency is so important.

to kind of heal is that around every addict or around every person who's kind of dysfunctional are plenty of what we call enablers. So are people that either are fearful to speak up or either get something out of the person being sick or either just are in this kind of...

type of relationship where they haven't, where this is the paradigm, right? Someone who has an illness and the other person kind of enables them. So it's a tricky thing. That's why it's really important to kind of look at codependency recovery. And I've been talking a lot. Go ahead.

No, that's great. You have 30 years of experience in this field. For us who are dealing with it or maybe coming to grips with it, you kind of mentioned this, but what are some common misconceptions about codependency you've encountered?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, a couple of them. One would be that it's just about being with an addict. I mean, I get crazy, I get crazy about codependency with kids, because I've seen a lot of parents over the years that are way focused and control. Control is a huge thing for people who are codependent, because the core of codependency is fear.

Hmm.

So the belief is I need to control my environment to feel safe. So if you're a parent and you're codependent, you will be way too involved in your kids' lives in a negative way. And there's a saying I have in the book, which is if you keep packing your kids' backpack, they're gonna start believing they can't do it. And so with codependent parents out of their own

Mmm.

fear they're way too overly involved. And I'm not saying you can't be involved in your kid's life, but another example would be I have a 23 year old and I remember a friend of his, when a friend of his went to college, I got together with the friend's mother for coffee. And she told me that she was still texting her son at college to wake him up in the morning. Now that's codependent behavior.

Wow.

That's not helping your child to grow and develop. That's out of your the mother's fear. So that's an extreme example. But now I lost the question. But codependency is so important because you don't let the people in your life have consequences for their own behaviors. So they don't learn and grow. Yeah, yeah.

That makes sense. So in your book, Code Crazy, you offer some no -nonsense advice, tips, and case studies. Can you give us an example of a case that particularly resonates with you?

Yeah, I mean, there's several one person I was thinking about is someone that was in a group of mine a few years ago during COVID. I ended up doing some online zoom groups. And there was a woman who was married and had two adolescent kids, you know, older kids, I mean, a senior and maybe a sophomore in high school. And she was very kind of the classic codependent, which would be shut down.

Wyatt was in a marriage where her husband kind of controlled her. She didn't feel like she could speak her truth, speak her needs. And over time during that group, say it went on for say a year, she gradually was able to speak up for herself. She was gradually able to set boundaries.

She was gradually able to start thinking about, wow, what do I want to do with my life? Which is really the healing of codependencies when you turn the focus onto you. And today she's a stewardess in American Airlines because she had always wanted to do that. So over this last couple of years, few years, she ended up talking to her husband about getting work. I mean, it just has evolved into this beautiful thing.

And really she's become the person that she's always wanted to be, but she was too afraid to be it. So that's kind of a real classic example, because I see her now and she's like just this bright flower blossomed and doing what she loves to do and not focused on every little thing her husband needs or kids, because they're fine. That's the thing. They're fine. She can actually have her dream and be a loving wife and mother.

She can do both. Yeah. Yes.

love that. You describe in your book, Memoirs and Roadmap to Freedom. For those who are dealing with co -dependency, what does freedom look like? Because we sometimes don't have a clear picture of what does it look like if I'm not in a co -dependent, co -crazy relationship.

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I say I joke around with my friends is, is that what happens when you're free from codependency is your life gets way easier. If you think about it, say, Keith, you were, you know, you had a employee who had a drug problem, and you spent all this time for six months trying to get them sober and

Mmm.

calling treatment centers and talking to their wife and like just totally overly involved. And of course the person didn't get better. And then suddenly you realized, I just need to set a boundary. I say to this person, geez, if you don't stop drinking in the next couple of weeks, I'm gonna have to fire you. I'm gonna have to let you go. And your life suddenly becomes so much simpler and easier because you're able to set a limit.

that person is able to have a consequence and you've taken yourself out of this dysfunctional dynamic that doesn't work for either person. So your life just gets simpler, it gets easier, it gets, you know, to me, codependency really kills people. And I've seen this with, there was a woman I knew a few years ago who was a grandmother. She could not,

saying no to her child. She had two children who are drug addicts. She was taking care of the grandkids. She was trying to get them. And literally, within a year of knowing her, she got, I think cancer, some illness and died. And to me, I remember a friend of ours saying, she just couldn't take it anymore. I mean, her whole life, there was so much energy going out and no energy coming in and...

Hmm.

I don't know if you've heard of probably Gabor Matei who wrote When the Body Says No. His whole book is about really how codependency and focusing way too much outside of ourselves causes physical illness. And I do believe that, that ultimately, if you're not taking care of yourself and you're taking care of everyone else for too long and too hard, you're gonna get sick.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because your body, I was talking to a woman who was dealing with a narcissistic relationship with her husband and she went to a doctor because she just was sick and her immune system was wrecked and the doctor said, it's nothing physically wrong with you other than that the stress has gotten your body to the point where you just can't fight off anything anymore. And it forced her to leave this abusive husband.

Yeah.

yes.

Yes.

Yes!

And she got better, but she was literally dying from the stress.

Yes, yes. And there's all this literature now in the therapeutic world, a lot of the methods now are around the body. So there's so much written now around how stress, and you know this, how stress affects our bodies physiologically and psychologically and emotionally also. So that's a great example of she took the focus off of him.

and put it on herself and she could get better. Great example. It's very true. Yes.

Yeah.

So you are the co -host of a YouTube channel called Leaving Crazy Town.

Yes, I am.

How does this platform compliment the work of your book?

So basically in the book, I have 10 to 15, what I call the power tools I have in each chapter, I have questions at the end of each chapter, but I have these power tools. And those are titled leaving crazy town, and then I'll give a tool. So because of that, a friend of mine who's an attorney, and he's been sober a long time, he had asked me to help him co host a

a codependency group online several years ago. And we just got along so well. He's very funny. And part of my whole message is, the reason we wanted to make the YouTube channel is we want people to have some joy and be able to talk about some intense heavy topics. So we really we give examples from our own lives. We talk about different topics and codependency, how to set boundaries, how to speak up.

how to not, you know, how to feel like you belong. I mean, all kinds of things we address, but we also have a sense of humor about it, which I think helps people and helps them to want to watch it because we're laughing at ourselves and we're giving personal examples. So it's called leaving crazy town and we do deep dives on codependency. Yes.

Yeah, so it's gonna sound really elemental Keith, but part of and this is part of getting sober also part of getting sober and and becoming someone that doesn't need drugs and alcohol and part of someone healing from codependency and not focusing on someone else is starting to learn to tolerate what's happening inside of you. So one of the

first tools is starting to notice and practice. And again, this sounds very elemental, but it's not with someone who's been focused on someone else for so long. I've had couples come in and be asking someone a question and their partner will answer it. So that's codependency, okay? So part of being in recovery is what do I think? What do I feel?

The mantra we have on our YouTube channel is what do I need? What do I want? What do I need? What do I want? Because again, if I say to a codependency, what do you need? They'll say to me, I have no idea. I don't even know what my needs are. So we're talking about, or if I say, geez, what are you feeling? They'll also say, I don't know. Because they're way more in touch with their partner who's angry or upset or sad or whatever, rather than how they're feeling.

So it's really critical as one of the tools to just start noticing what am I thinking? What am I feeling? And even I have people set a little ding on their watches like once an hour so they can start checking in with themselves. What am I experiencing right now? Not what my partner's experiencing or my child is experiencing, but what am I experiencing? So that's really the codependency treatment 101, one of the first steps.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay, so I don't know, you may know this about the book, but in the book, I say that out of practicing with people for 30 years, the two things that were the common themes with literally every patient was they couldn't set a boundary and they couldn't speak up. And I'm talking about people that, you know, not necessarily kind of quiet, passive people, they might've been able to speak up in their jobs.

or with certain people, but when it came down to the really important things, asking for their needs to be met, they couldn't do it. So those two things, the tip I would give is this, instead of speaking up to say your husband or wife or partner about something really difficult, I would say speak up to the person that made your coffee wrong at Dunkin' Donuts. So my tip is start with the easier people.

Start with someone you may not even know. Start with the person that gives you the wrong change back. Start with a friend that you trust. Start practicing speaking up around easier topics. If someone wants, it says to you, would you rather have Mexican food or Italian, say what you want. So start speaking up in easier environments to practice. That would be a really good tip.

And as it gets easier over time. Right? Yes. Yes.

I know. I mean, it's not easy for anyone to start speaking up or start setting a boundary, especially if you haven't done it. That's why I try to give little examples of doing it in easier environments to start and get support. You know, try to get in a support group or a church group or someplace where they're starting to practice this, where you can have people in your lives that will encourage you to take care of yourself.

Yes. Yes.

It would be a couple of things. One would be if you're someone who doesn't take good care of yourself and thinks you're kind of, I'm just, you know, this is just my personality. I can sacrifice myself. I can. I don't need to go to whatever, go to the dentist. I don't. I mean, these are basics, but that way of being may feel like it's going to work.

and it may feel like, this is the best thing to do, but in the end, it's really hurting you. I mean, in a room of people who are really codependent, you can tell that people don't take care of themselves. And just start with something small. Again, the more you can turn the focus back on yourself, and some people say to me, Sarah, that's selfish.

It's really not because basic self care is not selfish. That's a necessity of being a human being. You know, it's funny because in a famous book on boundaries, actually, he's a Christian psychiatrist, Henry Cloud, Cloud in Townsend. Right? Yes. Yeah.

Yes, he wrote they wrote some great books on boundaries. And he says, if you start to set boundaries, you're gonna feel guilty. So some of this stuff, you know, it's really learning to tolerate new feelings, new experiences. And so, you know, you might feel a feeling of being selfish, or you may feel a feeling of being guilty, but just trust, trust that this is going to be part of your recovery journey.

And it's gonna benefit everyone, not just you. Yes.

Okay.

cheese. I really Wow, my it would be great if I could support and help people become who they really want to be. I mean, because that's really the freedom. I think human beings because of either how they grew up or what their parents wanted from them or the culture wants from them.

I think people get all these messages that it's not okay to be who I want to be to say what I want to say to speak my truth. And that's really I try to practice that with my son, you know, that, you know, kids, I'm sure you know this, you have kids, right? They have their own dreams, they have their own desires, and they're not necessarily what we want for them. And that's really, that's the best gift I think I can give someone.

is to not get in the way of them wanting to be themselves. Yeah.

Sure. So my website is Dr. Sarah Michaud, -i -c -h -a -u -d .com. And on that website, you'll see the YouTube channel, you'll see Keith's podcast, like other podcasts. I have my email on there if you have any questions to ask me. There's also the Leaving Crazy Town YouTube channel at Leaving Crazy Town with Finn and Sarah. Finn's my buddy.

And you can get the book either on my website or Amazon or wherever you get books.

Thank you so much.

Amen. Fasten your seatbelt. We're leaving. Thanks, Keith. Thank you, Keith, for having me.