Lina AlHathloul is the youngest sister of Loujain. Since her older sister was detained in May 2018, alongside more than a dozen other women human rights defenders, Lina has become one of the few family members able and willing to speak out on behalf of an incarcerated relative. A lawyer by training, Lina has become a tireless advocate for her sister and has spoken to numerous media outlets, at international events and gatherings, and to representatives of the U.S. government and the United Nations.

They discuss:

00:19 - Introduction to Lina

00:53 - What was it like growing up as a girl in Saudi Arabia with a guardianship system?

02:50 - Once she moved away from the country, Lina explains what it was like to experience life in a free country for the first time.

04:15 - Lisa gives background on Loujain being imprisoned for 1,001 days and what she experienced during that time.

04:48 - Lina explains the moment her sister was kidnapped in the UAE and the course of events that led to her unlawful imprisonment.

09:16 - Lina describes in further detail exactly what happened to her sister Loujain while being held in the torture facility–beatings, electric shock therapy, waterboarding, sexual abuse and the man who ordered it all–MBS's right hand man, Saud al-Qahtani, who allegedly oversaw the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

11:53 - How did her release come about? Lina explains how her sister was labeled as a traitor with signs bearing her face placed around the capital city with those stamped on them. MBS claims Loujain was communicating with enemy states but not produced any of the evidence he claimed to posses.

15:41 - Lina talks about how her sister was offered an early release if she made a video statement saying she was never tortured or harassed while imprisoned, which Loujain refused to do.

17:03 - What is Loujain doing now? Lina describes her sister's five-year travel ban, how people around her are targeted, being isolated and how she lives in constant fear.

18:10 - Lisa asks Lina about an article she recently tweeted about regarding the care houses and how women who report their abusers (rape victims, incest, physical abuse) are held in these facilities and tortured for months before being released back to their male abusers.

20:04 - In 2020, Lina wrote a letter to members of the Ladies European Tour begging them not to participate in any Saudi government sponsored tournaments (Aramco Series). She explains what prompted her to write the letter and discusses the dangers sportswashing poses to all Saudi women.

24:25 - Lisa asks Lina what her message would be to LPGA players currently wearing the "Golf Saudi" logo and accepting MBS's blood money.

26:51 - Does it give MBS power when players from the West support his sportswashing efforts?

27:56 - Lina responds to Greg Norman's comments about life for women in Saudi Arabia getting better because he's seen them in restaurants. She also reacts to Lee Westwood's claims that life is improving for women and people in Saudi.

29:51 - What's the future for women in Saudi under MBS?

30:23 - Lisa asks Lina how concerned she is for her sister's safety. Lina goes into detail about the travel ban, continued torture, her sister's phone being targeted with spyware, being followed and harassed.

31:55 - How about her own personal safety? She talks about why speaking out will always help her sister and she doesn't have the luxury to remain silent.

32:57 - Thank you...

yeah

stay on with me for a few seconds don't hang up immediately because it takes

a minute for it to process and then it'll be ready

m right

ready

all right

okay

oh

yeah welcome i think that this will be one of the most important interviews that

we do in quite some time a lot of the talk about live golf in

the aram coast series on the ladies european tour and the conversation seems to be

shifting to the wrong things in my opinion at this point and that's why i'm

really thrilled to welcome in our guest today lina hath thank you so much for

you time your sister lusine who spent one thousand and one days in a saudi

prison

yeah

and i wanted to connect with you and i appreciate your doing this because you're

brave i've read so much about your story your sister's story your background

yeah

but this conversation with live golf this conversation with a ram co it's focused on

money it's focused on sports you bring a human aspect to it and so i

want to dive into your story i want to start though because you grew up

in sally what was it like for a young girl growing up in south arabia

um that's a very difficult question because when we're there we don't really see you

know we don't really feel

yeah

the difference is once we know what freedom is that we

a

are actually we agree is the kind of prison that it is so actually in

south arabia i was living there

a

when women were not allowed to drive yet so i was always with with a

driver whether a male relative or a stranger so i was always with a man

which is always also sometimes dangerous to be with

yeah

strangers in a car the second thing is that there's the mail guardianship system so

for every decision even my mom had to have the consent of my father for

know even for traveling i mean member my father being overwhelmed with all these procedures

oh

because he had to sign and give his consent for us to only go on

vacation because we're women so yeah everything i mean i was very lucky to be

honest to have this family where they would give their consent to everything they would

allow me to play sports they would let you know have

yes

classes like child children

yes

everywhere in the world but i would

yeah

i mean i was seeing the unfortunate kids you know women who were not as

lucky i wasn't weren't privileged as i was to have this this kind of male

relatives who

oh

were open enough to allow the women to to swim to go to classes

yes

to eve study so yeah it was heartbreaking to see that i was lucky and

we needed luck to just have a normal life basically

so you said you didn't really derstand what it was like until you experience freedom

what was

yeah

the difference once you did experience that

well the difference is that you don't know how powerful

so

you can be actually you know you just i mean for example my sister i

think that she realized that from a very young age she can bring change i

honestly i wasn't as brave

i

and

was

look as open as her to realize that before

realized

experiencing it you know once you're here you don't have to have the consent of

anyone to study to work you you even realize that it's also responsibilities that you

that imposed

yes

upon you and this is very empowering i would say this is something that you

do not have back there even very no custody

he

women don't have their choice for custody over their child and um i mean i

was also here in in europe when my sister was first arrested and even for

her release which was very shocking for me too um to be informed about that

is that for her release she had to have the consent of a male relative

to leave prison so yeah i

oh

really you know i started realizing all of that once my sister really was active

and once i was here abroad doing my studies

so reading on your sister's store and again i mentioned one thousand and one days

in a county prison and she was listed as a terrorist because she was an

activist a campaigner for women to have the right to drive for the release of

the guardianship system you have talked in detail as she has about what she went

through during those one thousand and one days subject electric shop therapy water boarding sexual

abuse floggings that day let's go back to march of twenty eight team and and

you find out that your sister has been taken into house custody correct that happened

for a couple o months before prison what was your reaction to it

okay so i think yeah try to be brief but so basically my sister was

in active she had been imprisoned a first time in two thousand fourteen for trying

to drive in south arabia and because she was imprisoned and in what is called

a care house so basically in south arabia there it's what's called a care house

it is basically prisons for women who are disobedient or who are under thirty and

have committed a real crime when you're a woman in south arabia and your male

guardian considers that whatever behavior you have can be considered as be disobedient him you

can be imprisoned in this care house and leave it only with the consent of

a male guardian so when eugene tried to drive in two thousand fourteen she was

in prisoned in that carehouseon when she went out of it she realized that the

problem actually is not only about driving in salts about the whole guardianship

horse

system that imprisoned imprisoned women based on the arbitrary opinion of a mild who considers

a

a woman to be disobedient so once she went out of prison she continued her

activism but she brought

i

that and she she was trying to dismantle the guardianship system which is many laws

that

he

imprisons or you know submits women to to a man and

hey

i think that's real the moment where it got a bit very stressed frustrating for

the authorities that she's not only about driving she's also about you know being free

basically from s and so in february two thousand eighteen she was in geneva the

human rights council and she was observing

and

the official south so the delegation that was talking about the improvements of women's rights

in south arabia and she was tweating life about it countering

oh

their their narrative basically and so she got back to the middle east and she

used to live in the u and the mats back then and when she went

back to the u she was kidnapped so she was driving her car from the

dbitoabuabi she was kidnapped in the middle of the highway in the middle of the

day she was put in a private plane she was brought back to south against

her will and in south arabia she

this

was in prison for a couple of days and then she was released and put

on a travel band so she couldn't leave sad and then in may two thousand

eighteen that's when they broke into her house it may be important

a

point is that before they broke into our house when she was this period where

she was under a travel ban the row a court had called her saying that

they're about to to lift the driving band and they're about to let a woman

drive but she is not supposed to comment on it set now is supposed to

tweet about it and not even applaud the decision just to stay silent

just a

but of course she she had to agree on i mean she was on a

travel band their husband many there had been so many arrest wave arrest on intellectual

academics royals before her so she said okay the atmosphere is a bit tense now

will of course you know do whatever you ask me to do but nevertheless they

broke into our house they took logan she was forcibly disappeared for less than a

month and then she called and she said that she was in a hotel and

honestly we felt relieved we thought that it was

yes

actually hotel back then and then later on no she only had calls and then

the first visit started when she was brought bac to the official prison and that's

when we found

and

out

that

about what this hotel was actually it was your facility

what and i can't imagine how painful it is for you to talk about it

i read that your parents actually saw her and of course the satis did not

want this out that they wanted to restrict kind of information that she indeed was

being tortured but your parents saw it first hand they saw her body they saw

the physical shape that she was in how has she described that to you

i'm sorry it's always very difficult

i

it's

take

been years but it's always

m

the same so basically um that torture facility it's a hotel or a palace and

they would

yes

men would be sitting on just with one detain in the middle who would be

on a chair

on a chair

and of course you know and

of our

the important also note is that so

dust

one of the men who was imposing all this torture is the right hand man

of the crown prince srdegatani who is also involved in the case of haakon killing

a fresh and who's involved in also the twitter spice

i

he's the one who's

a

who had led the campaign to have spice and twitter to

oh

arrest out is basically so he is really the core of the problem and he's

still very active even though it's behind the scenes but yes so eugene was sitting

in the middle if this room and they would come and you know sexually harass

her they would insult her and then of course it gets more and more they

beat her they like repute her the water boarded her

walk

you know when the torture session was over because you know the they order and

that comes

for

from i think human right to watch we read this

a

later the order was not to kill them so when they were about to faint

they would stop and bring them back to tother to their rooms and at night

of course

and

they also were depriving eugene and the others of sleep they would come and just

you know scare them make make sure that they're really scared just shaking them up

you know threatening them with another torture session and yes this is what this was

the case for approximately the three first months

ah

oh

how did her release come about

this is

this

how did her release come about so you know i think it's also important to

understand how so the authorities deal with activists now so basically when eugene was arrested

there was a huge deformation campaign on social media and on some of the outlet

on aper where her face and the other activist face were stamped with traitor

with

and they were saying that

and

they were traitors because they were communicating with enemy states a and at the very

beginning we didn't know what they meant we didn't know you know who they were

referring to but what we used to see on social media is that the bolts

are the accounts that are close to the government they used to say that he

was an agent of a and back then sad and tar were not friends they

had a diplomatic crisis and anyway so okay

anyway

agent of a give us some evidence nothing came

yeah

and even the crown prince when he had an interview with bloomberry back in two

thousand eighteen when they asked him what

eh

are the charges of eugene he said that she is an agent and that he

has videos that he can show the day after the interview nothing came and then

a year later the trial starts the trial starts and what we see that the

charges

yes

surprisingly men mentioned her contact with the uk

a i

with the netherlands with the

i

and is international with human right to watch

you

so nothing about kata nothing about a real enemy you know nothing about

m

ran or whatever and so

m

we question ourselves we see you say okay so this new reformer who is praised

by the west actually considers them as enemies and because we made

and

that public because you know the atmosphere of fere makes it that no one talks

in south arabia any more no one had dared even to say that their relative

was in prison and when we decided to stop publish the charges to say look

this is what rugen is accused of she's literally accused of her activism i think

there there has been some diplomatic you know

oh

advocacy and uk was removed

you can't raise it

so they left eugene being a traitor because she's in contact with the u and

the netherlands and amnesty of course and human right to watch and also because she

was at the at the u n at the human rights council of the u

so these are the charges and i mean we have posted everything on

a

our website everything is translated so for whoever is interested the website is luginehavol a

uh and there's the page that has all the trial so leugian's defense is to

say that all the charges that she's accused of nothing is a crime based on

even say law international law

m

and also in sad law but

m

she was still condemned sentenced to five years and eight months but with with approbation

and that probation makes it that what whatever you know

ah

she does could be considered as a crime and she can get imprisoned any time

and she's also not allowed to speak to journalists she's not allowed to speak about

her experience in prison and she has a five year travel band

and they actually wanted or gave her the option to be released sooner correct they

wanted her to say initially in a statement that she wasn't beaten she wasn't tortured

and then they wanted to go on camera

absolutely

of all the admirable things that your sister did in my opinion that was one

of the most because she wanted that story out there how did she make that

cision

i mean you know lugena is someone who's really selfless everything she does she does

it for the generations to come she never really thinks about herself first and i

think that when she decides it's not to

to

to do this and to to deny the torture she has been subjected to she

thought about the other activist as well because if she denies it then they will

make it a denial for everyone and for they can continue with other you know

other people arrest them torture them and whenever if they complain

a

about it you know they will have eugen s an evidence to say no look

she denied

yeah

it so you're all liars so i think it was it was about the others

and making sure that you know it cannot be yeah it cannot be xperienced by

other activists again and she she wanted really to have some kind of accountability to

what is happening and of course they keep denying the torture

good for her what's she doing now

so now she

oh

is allowed to work not all the activists who have been released are allowed to

work but i think because of her profile it would be too difficult for them

to deprive her work but the thing is you know the target people around her

so the center she she works for the president of the center has been forcibly

the set just after she started working and we see yeah of course you know

she's a bit isolated i would say because they don't want people you know it

an official charge basically to be in contact with rugen so it's a

oh

it's a very she lives in constant fear but she's still very strong

linda reading the story on your sister was difficult enough and i've read a lot

of the articles that you've posted on twitter it almost becomes more difficult because you're

very open and you say it really eloquently that that over here in the west

we think that that m b s is progressive he tries to display those those

sorts of things you recently posted an article

oh

and it's interesting because this whole guardianship issue is still on going you talked about

women who who are in these sort of hidaways for lack of a better word

and if they report rape they report incest they report physical abuse that they are

actually punished and their abusers have control over them is still the guardianship system how

much is the west being filled by the propaganda that m b s is trying

to spread

well i think lisa

yes

to be honest there is the ones who are being full they're just turning a

blind eye on what is happening there is too

serious

much evidence of who he is and what south

yes

arabia is now i mean i can understand

yeah

that at the very beginning when he was you know named crowned prince

to

and you know he had all this now rative about women's rites women driving opening

up the country to foreign business i can understand but

i

after a couple of years when the murderer of a with the murder of his

with the war in yemen with the diplomatic crisis in nat with the arrest of

all the activists and the and the

i

torture of women in prisons with the arrest and imprisonment of the prime minister of

a sov sovereign country that is lebanon i mean there are too much evidence to

say that

oh

we can believe that he is open and he's a real reformer

yeah

i think that now the people who still continue to have this narrative are just

too interested they are consciously turning a blind eye to what is happening in the

what

country yeah

and unfortunately right now a lot of that is happening with golf i want to

turn our attention to that before we get into the live golf in the ram

co can women play golf in south arabia

i think they can

a

but again what i'm saying is that it's not about sports per se it's about

using sports to hide the repression

right

inside country yes

so in october twenty twenty he wrote a very powerful letter and this is how

i first

oh

i introduced to you because i read the letter and it's the entire letter is

just absolutely beautiful because it spells out exactly why you were pleading with the ladies

european or players not to participate in the ram co series it is something that

i'm passionate about we're watching this live golf scene and it involves men hundreds of

millions of dollars that fits absolute no business model but the ladies european tour has

actually forced this upon these players and so saying no to certain tournaments is really

difficult if they want to continue their livelihoods how did you find out about this

and and what was behind the plea that you put out in the letter

well i've know since

i

since crown prince mamadbinsaman has been using the strategy of you now sports washing i've

been really interested in that end i think that again i do not want to

be

oh

unfair with the sad people i don't want them to be sanctioned twice i don't

want them to be deprived of sports what i'm saying is that the crown prince

as

is using you know public figures to continue and to hide his repression inside of

the country the very evidence of that is that no one who is going to

south arabia can

i

say anything about what they know in the country so this is

this

the

is

very evidence of them being used as a window dressing of what is happening inside

of the country just to be clear so cram prince hambinsamancams he does a clue

against i'm sorry to be political but it is a bit so he does

i

a c against

he

you know the one who is supposed to be crown prince he imprisons all the

people from there a family who are not accepting him and

the

to basically to gain legitimacy because he doesn't have any within the royal family and

within the people who didn't choose him he need the western world

east

to

western

accept him

world

and he knows how to get

you know

the western world to accept him is by having this narrative of accepting women

yeh

of you know not accepting women reforming the laws for women and opening the country

to concerts and sports and concerts and sports is the very

men

topic you know

so

the very field by which he can show himself as as a reformer this is

why i think that whoever is involved in sports western people who are involved in

sports in south arabia either they

ye

go and they speak about what is going on because they know that you know

just for them to see if they see one person criticising the crown prince or

whatever is happening if they see one person even naming my sister it's impossible we

are in an absolute police state where people

i

have

yes

been silenced where no one speaks and whoever speaks is imprisoned and disappeared so you

know the this

yes

idea of south arabia opening up because there are sports it's not true it is

true that you know women now can play more sports but it doesn't mean that

they're more free whoever their male guardian can

right

you know can

yes

do whatever he was doing before m b s and even worse than this is

that you know whoever speaks is in prison so for us

for

you know

us

having this kind

a

tournaments inside rab not only you know hides the abuses but it enables them because

it allows m b s to be even more powerful and show himself as a

reform and you know there the man of the situation who is changing things so

yeah this is why my message was clear you know there is a responsibility because

these violations are able with sports with concerts with social reforms so

yeah

i don't know if i answered their question with

you did you did excuse me one thing that is that is difficult for me

and listening to your story reading about your sister's story makes it even more difficult

to

i've been talking about this this whole topic and i expect that it will get

worse and this is why i wanted to have you on i hope that players

or this especially the female players there are women on the l p g a

tour who wear a golf salty logo

oh

a golf salty logo and you're explaining how this repressive regime under m b s

has not only continued but in a sense is getting worse because of the whole

facade that he's trying to do what would you message be lina to those women

who have that logo or thinking about wearing the logo and accepting this kind of

money

my message is clear i think that we should remember that south arabia is not

m b

i

s and

yes

wearing this logo

were the

only represents so for them to be fair they should be speaking about my sister

luga they should be speaking about all the women rights activist who are either still

in prison or under a travel band they should be talking

i

about the mail

should

gardenship

be

system they should be talking about these

they should

care

be

homes otherwise what they're being used and i know they

no

do not like to be to hear

not

this

a

but they are b in complicit to what is happening

yes

they are enabling this repression so just to be fair with them and constant with

their message because i guess that they wear this and so art you know they

think that i think most of them think that they're doing good thing that you

know there may be trying to make the country improve that they're bridge that the

yeah they're linking continents and you know that sports is is a door to to

to more solidarity to morrow two improvements but this is not the case in south

so just for their for their message to be fair i think that they have

a duty to speak about women's rights active to speak about women's rights and souter

yeah and also to make sure that when they go there to to feel the

real atmosphere and to see that actually it is a dictatorship where no one can

speak

does this give m b s more power and if so how dangerous is that

absolutely he

i see

wouldn't have any power without this soft power actually this is all he has now

for his own legitimacy because now no one wants him so of course it does

give him more legitimacy it does empower him it does embolden him and it does

increase the repression inside the country and i must say something

and

as well as that m b s and again we're being political but he's not

only you know dangerous for the sad people i mean we've seen it in so

many cases that you know the transnational repression

yes

that he is the core of is it's very dangerous and i don't think we

want to enable and embolden someone like m b s who maybe will become a

new basha

i was

who can who won't be stopped in a fifteen years time so i think that

it's our duty now to act and not to be short sighted and what we

do

lina greg norman recently made a ridiculous statement and they were talking about the situation

for women in sally he said well i've been there and i've seen women in

restaurants le westwood who is golfer and committed to this live golf tour actually claimed

that things are getting better for women in saudi how do you react to that

knowing what is taking place today knowing the stories of these these imprisoned camps where

women are currently being held because there doesn't seem to be any sort of progress

in fact it seems to be taking sort of a backwards pedal since m b

s tried to claim that this guardianship system was gone

well what

m

i can say is that i don't think he's in the right place to to

to say what the situation

what

of women

yes

is in south arabia i think that it's up south women to choose what they

want and we have seen that towards the women try to choose what they want

they get tortured

they

in prisons so

oh

being in a restaurant and seeing women think i don't think it's a sign of

the country opening up i think that you know the first thing to do is

maybe

yeah

to speak to women who have who are experiencing the repression south arabia and to

to see with them whether they they're they're satisfied with with the reforms

i

or not and i think that it might be impossible to get

i

anyone who might criticize the reform so called reforms because of the repression inside of

the country so

oh

maybe if you can speak to eugene

a

or to the women's rights

yeah

active who have been released which he won't because they're not allowed to speak to

anyone then he can

a

have a real idea of of what is really going on and what you know

women women's rights looks like in today

what's the future for women under n b s

i think the

in saudi

the future of women and under m b s is if they applaud him and

as

if they are they don't say that today they don't agree with what is going

on they might be okay but if someone as brave as

so

eugene speaks then the future would would be torture and maybe death sometimes

he is i just want i want to finish with this these these last couple

of questions how concerned are you for your sister not just now but but looking

ahead she seems to be a born activist she seems to be outspoken in the

most wonderful way obviously there still has to be concern for you

solutely

and your family

absolutely you know lisa the travel

he

band i mean which country

she don't

sanctions you with a travel band where you cannot leave the country usually they just

make want you to leave the country they don't want you to come back it's

because they know that hell inside the inside of the country they know that keeping

you inside is a kind of torture so of course i'm super concerned for my

sister you know she has been harassed

sis

and intimidated

but

in an unprecedented level since she since her release even you know she has been

tarigated with pegasus her phone is always hacked they want to show her that you

know she is being followed that whatever she does she will get imprisoned and again

yes

whenever m b s is empowered or re em or the rehabilitated she most probably

will be in prison

you all

now it's because

this

there has been international pressure that he had to concede this at least once you

know he will be a if he ever gets rehabilitated

you

the fate of lugena will be the one of two thousand eighteen i have no

doubt of that

what about your own safety do you ever worry about speaking out or do you

worry about

speak

you speaking out and any impact that it might have on lusine

one thing i'm sure of is that if i speak speaking out will always save

lucile because it's silence now has been the norm and you know without me speaking

people would believe him yes instead so i don't have this luxury of choosing if

i fear for my safety to be honest i live in belgium i'm in europe

i i'm quite okay what we've seen recently with the transnational repression with you know

the tiger squad that they've sent to canada trying to kidnap

i

the cadent i think that

i

we're not safe

i think

anywhere especially if you know allies or governments are not as loud or as vocal

as they should be against embsisviolat and so i would say i'm

would

safe but we never know yeah

lina i hope that i hope that you keep speaking out and i hope that

at one point your sister gets to speak louder because the world needs voices like

yours we need voices like hers and i suspect that all this white washing and

sport swashing with n b s is just beginning unfortunately i hope that the golf

world wakes up because it has been a difficult thing to watch but your letter

again i want to keep airing it especially in the golf world and especially with

the females in the sport because it's powerful and it matters and it

it's

shows what's important lina thank you so much for your time and for joining us

and it l is an honor to have met

thank

you

you so much liza thank you

then

for having

at

me