This week we get to speak with Sarah Williams, an engineer who shares with us her journey in navigating being a single mom, dealing with mom guilt, and being a leader (even if you find it hard to stand up and shout that's what you are).

Sarah shares her experiences with finding her village and the path that led her from the UK to Colorado and a few stops inbetween.

Her powerful and inspiring insights are truly eye-opening and give an incredible perspective on how to lead in STEM while managing the responsibilities of motherhood and life.

Sarah definitely has a case of imposter syndrome, both in her new job and being asked to do this podcast with stories from such strong, accomplished, and brave women. She realizes that no matter where you are in life or what journey you’ve been on, we all have so much in common, and it’s important to share the good and the bad and realize we are not alone.

Sarah grew up in the UK, graduated from the University of Liverpool as an engineer, and went straight into a male-dominated engineering career 20-something years ago. She’s remained in the same industry after moving to the US 15 years ago.

Sarah sits on the board of a couple of committees, including Women’s Leadership and Women in STEM, which is trying to sustain and grow the representation of women in her industry and encourage and mentor young engineers starting out in their careers. 

She is a single mum of 2 soccer and climbing crazy boys and a loopy dog, so juggling life is never dull. 

Sarah finds peace in the mountains, whether hiking or skiing, running with friends, getting her hands dirty in clay, and cooking with weird and wonderful ingredients. Fun fact, she has a certificate in entomophagy - eating insects 😆

Thanks for tuning in and listening to Sarah's story and insights. It's a great reminder of the power of community and the importance of supporting one another.

Connect with Sarah:

http://linkedin.com/in/sarah-williams-90192845

Book that was mentioned:

Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men

How to connect with Diane

www.thefireinsideher.com 

Diane@Thefireinsideher.com 

Instagram

@TheRealFireInHer 

LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com/in/dianeschroeder5/

Are you excited to get copy of the Self Care Audio download that Diane mentioned?

You can get that HERE –

TheFireInsideHer.com/audio

If you enjoyed this episode, take a minute and share it with someone you know who will find value in it as well. You can share directly from this platform or send them to:

https://TheFireInsideHer.com/podcast

Welcome to the Fire Inside Her podcast, A safe space for

leadership, self care, and community.

I'm your host Diane Schroeder, and it is my privilege to be your guide

on the journey to authenticity.

Many years ago when I got into the fire service, I was really intimidated

by the spouses and partners of the firefighters that I worked with.

I can recall one time in particular, I was a brand new firefighter.

I had answered the phone.

And the response on the end was, why are you there?

And I said, I'm here because I work here.

And the spouse of the firefighter was pretty rude and said,

can I talk to so-and-so?

So I was always a little intimidated by the partners

of the men that I worked with.

Fast forward 20 plus years, and I have made some of the best connections

with the spouses and partners of the guys that I get to work with.

And it's been really fun.

I love connecting with them and getting to know them, and I think part of it is

the more comfortable that I have become in my own skin and on my journey to

authenticity, that I'm able to really open up and make those connections.

Last summer I met the partner of one of the guys I work with, and it was a

brief conversation at a community event.

Fast forward a few months later, and she came by and gave me a book called

Invisible Women in Its Data Bias in A World Designed For Men by Caroline Perez.

And I will link the book in the show notes and I thought, I don't really know her,

but I want to get to know her because the book is incredible and really eye-opening

and talks about how the world is really set up for men from all different

perspectives, whether it's health outcomes that are affected by data that fails to

address the female body specifically.

Everyday objects from pianos to smartphones are designed for men

and the disadvantage that women are at because the data just doesn't

account for the female experience.

As I've gotten to know Sarah, I've also connected with

her, um, through parenthood.

She's a single mom and not only does she work in a male

dominated profession, but she's.

Really blossomed into her authentic self and really relies on her

community, and I'm just really excited to share this episode with you.

Sarah definitely has a case of imposter syndrome, both in her new job and being

asked to do this podcast with stories from such strong, accomplished and brave women.

She is realizing that no matter where you are in your life or what journey you've

been on, we all have so much in common and it's important to share the good and

the bad and realize that we are not alone.

Sarah grew up in the uk, graduated from the University of Liverpool as

an engineer, and went straight into a very much male dominated career in

engineering 20 something years ago.

She's remained in the same industry.

After moving to the US 15 years ago, Sarah sits on the board of a

couple committees, including women's leadership and women in stem, who

are trying to sustain and grow the representation of women in her industry

and encourage and mentor young engineers.

Starting out in their careers.

She's a single mom of two soccer and climbing crazy boys and a loopy dog.

So juggling life is never dull.

Sarah finds peace in being in the mountains, whether hiking or skiing,

running with friends, getting your hands dirty and clay, and cooking

with weird and wonderful ingredients.

Fun fact, she's the certificate in.

Tomography eating insects.

I really enjoyed how vulnerable Sarah was about her journey in navigating

being a single mom, mom, guilt.

Cuz parents, we suffer from that and.

Exploring this next adventure that she's on in negotiating terms of her

new job, and also how she's really learning to focus on self-care and things

that she does to take care of herself.

Hi, Sarah.

Hi Dan.

How are you?

I'm okay, thank you.

How are you?

Good.

I'm so excited that we get to do this interview in person.

most of the time I do 'em over the inner web, so it's really nice to, to just talk

in person and have more of a conversation.

Yeah.

So I think the question I wanna know, Is, do you hang anything from

your rear view mirror in your car?

Not usually, no furry dice, but, uh, my friend actually gave

me a air freshener at Christmas, which was, All three dogs.

So my dog and my partner's two dogs.

And so that's what's there right now, but Awesome.

I have to take it down because it smells a lot overpowering.

Yeah.

Very nice.

Very nice.

Well, I'm so glad that we get to chat for part two because the first.

Episode that we recorded a couple months ago, I didn't have the microphone on.

So now we get to do it again and in person.

And I know I'm a lot less nervous because I've done a couple more.

Mm-hmm.

And we've had time to noodle over it.

So let's just start by a little bit, share a little bit about your

story.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, there's a lot.

Well,

so you are not a native to Colorado, like, so what's your journey?

Okay.

From where you grew up to how you got here to Colorado?

So yeah, I moved to Colorado almost eight years ago from via San

Francisco and Northfield, Minnesota, and San Francisco was with my ex's job.

And when I told my job I was leaving, they said, well, do you want to.

Work over there too for us, and you can move into sales.

It's like, oh, I don't wanna move to sales.

I was a process engineer, but I did it and had a wonderful six

years in San Francisco and both of my kids were born there as well.

And then moved to Minnesota with my now old job as of two months ago.

And.

To, to be closer to the office there and realized after two years

that it was a really tough life.

Yeah.

And we can talk more about that part, but there was a big change moving from,

you know, a big city to a town of 20,000 people, um, and commuting every day.

And the weather more children and the weather was a huge factor.

And so, yeah, maybe I talk about that.

Part now is, is that after two years there, the, you know, we got there,

my youngest son was five months old.

It was the worst winter in 50 years.

Oh my goodness.

They'd spent so much time outside in California and then they got

strip and pinkeye and all that stuff climbing over each other at

daycare, and it was just rough really.

And then I was commuting to work like 40 minutes each way and.

Their dad was working from home.

And so taking care of a lot of that stuff that I was really very grateful for.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but it was hard on me.

I had that guilt that, yeah, I should be doing that and.

Not sure why, you know,

but I think it's ingrained in us from like generations, right?

Yeah.

That we have to be the ones that take care of the kids and, you know,

do the, what I call unpaid work.

Yeah.

Or

invisible work.

Invisible work.

And, and listening to some of your, the podcast, I was like,

yeah, that's exactly what it is.

And, and that book I gave you, it talked about, you know, 75% of unpaid.

Work mm-hmm.

In the world is done by women.

Um, so I had that, that guilt.

And then after two years I just said, I can't do this.

I wasn't feeling right in myself and mm-hmm.

Um, but e even after six months of Minnesota, I went to the doctor and,

and said, you know, Not feeling great and he said, you think you're depressed?

I was like, no, I just, he said, so you, you've got a five month old so

you're probably not sleeping very well and you moved from away from all

your friends and you were living in this weather and so give it another

six months and then come back and see and, and then still it wasn't good.

So I actually went to quit my job cause I.

I just thought that's what I needed to do.

Mm-hmm.

And kind of listened to myself and I wasn't exercising e either.

That's huge.

Mm-hmm.

Actually, that's what the doctor said to me.

He said, do you exercise?

And I said, I run.

And he said, don't stop running.

Mm-hmm.

And that I've carried with me.

And I know that when I don't, and I don't, you know, I do it way less now

and I should do it more, but I also know how my body feels if I don't do that.

Right.

It's, it's that part of self-care and I, I mean, I can't imagine,

so it's two little ones.

The commute Yeah.

The weather, the all the things.

Yeah.

And how do you find time to take care of yourself Right.

When you're already, like,

feeling bad.

And I hadn't got a connection with fin, didn't feel like I connected

with my youngest son either.

So I just thought my only option was to quit.

And I was very fortunate to be in the position that I could consider that.

Mm-hmm.

And so I, I went to my boss and.

And he just looked at me when I walked into his office and he went, oh no.

And, and I gave him the letter and he said, do you wanna work part-time?

And I, I never even thought that was an option, right.

In my job.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

And I said, um, I'm moving to Colorado.

And he went, do you wanna work part-time in Colorado?

Wow.

And I moved to Colorado just because, picked it.

Because, uh, we did a poll of our friends and they said Seattle or Colorado

we're like, we didn't want the rain.

We grew up in England.

Let's move to Colorado.

So we did, and I worked part-time for three years before

going back into my own job.

Okay.

So that's kind of that journey of how I came here and

I love it.

And I guess the other important part, piece of that is, You are an engineer.

Mm-hmm.

So how did you get, as a person in a male dominated profession to another, you know,

female in a male dominated profession?

How did you, how did that journey of becoming an engineer?

Uh,

I actually went to study, wanted to study dentistry.

Mm-hmm.

I'll always remember my chemistry teacher saying, you don't wanna do that.

You are a people person.

And I was like, yeah, Molly, you still see people just maybe one at a time and

you know, talking about the same things.

But so, and I didn't quite get my grades for dentistry, so I studied biomedical

engineering and material science and it was really great for me because

I loved the sort of medical side.

I got to do some of that right.

But also bring in the engineering side.

And I always loved.

Science at school.

I wasn't as good at it as languages and stuff, but I, I enjoyed it more.

Mm-hmm.

So before I did, I did a master's in Lasers, laser engineering, which

bought in some of the medical side too.

It was to do with.

Putting coatings on hips Oh wow.

To help the bone grow into hips.

And when I finished that, there was a job advert, like I thought

maybe I'll take a year out.

And there was a job advert at the university that said

experience in sputtering, which is the process of my old job.

And I'm glad I don't have to explain the whole process, but, but anyway, I

got that job and so, and then state, and then that's the industry I'm in 20.

Something years later.

And I've been through, you know, so I started out as a process engineer.

Um, when I moved to the States, I did move into sales, like in tech support.

Mm-hmm.

So I was doing tech support with the equipment there and then joined my old

company prior to the one I'm in now.

And they, they were a competitor of the other company, but actually

my old boss recommended me for the position, which was Wow.

Really nice.

Uhhuh, um, was with them for 11 years and then, Took my new job

that I never had for two months.

You took a leap.

So I did.

You took I, I, and I guess, how is the experience of being a female engineer,

how has that been helped or frustrated, or what lessons have you learned?

You know?

Yeah.

Did you even notice?

I guess so.

I mean, I knew I was in a male dominated profession.

Mm-hmm.

Duh.

There wasn't a lot of women around.

Mm-hmm.

And I still didn't like, I was kind of oblivious to a lot of the subtleties of

being in a male dominated profession.

I don't know if that,

how was your experience?

And I think maybe part of it was, I think I've been very lucky in my

career to have felt supported mm-hmm.

By male coworkers.

There's been many male coworkers, you know?

Right.

Very few women.

And I do feel that I've, I haven't had, Any particularly horrible

experiences unlike, you know, some people I've talked to.

My dad is a civil engineer and I used to go on the building site with him.

That was kind of just normal, you know?

Yep.

Actually, I was telling Kevin on the way, there were these, uh, um,

you know, Rude calendars, right?

Yep.

Yep.

It was normal.

Mm-hmm.

You didn't think anything of it?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No, I, my dad was a firefighter Uhhuh, and same thing.

I grew up in a firehouse.

Yeah.

But I mean, my dad had a subscription to Playboy magazine, so it,

there was not, like, it wasn't anything that I thought was weird.

Yes.

If there was anything inappropriate said or something like that, I didn't

even, didn't even think anything of it.

Yeah.

So, and so I just think, you know, I've just sort of floated through and just.

Well, actually there was one time I remember going into one company and I

went in with one of our reps and the, I went to fix some equipment and the

guy gave our rep the toolkit and uh, and he just went, oh no, it's all her.

Right.

And he was great.

You know?

That's awesome.

Well, I think it's important to have those male allies, allies that are Yeah.

Just like, uh, no, she's the badass.

Yeah.

That knows how to work with lasers and Yeah.

You know, all the engineering brain, which I'm envious of cuz I do not have

a lick of that in my, I'm definitely

more the creative type.

Well, I, I was gonna talk about the whole imposter syndrome,

you know, but in my, my new job.

But, but yeah, in the, going back to sort of the, That experience and, and

what other women have experienced it too.

I joined a board a couple of years ago and they formed a

women's leadership committee.

Mm-hmm.

And that was the first time I felt like I found my village.

Right.

Yeah.

Of all these women that I've met, one or two, and there's been a couple

of us that have, you know, talked or hung out, but not as a big group.

Mm-hmm.

And we laughed and we cried and we shared.

War stories.

Mm-hmm.

You know, good and bad.

Great.

And it was really comforting.

And to know that this group of people is, is there and has always been there.

Right.

Well,

and that you're not alone.

Yeah.

Do you, did you experience.

It's always like positive, like here's this amazing group of

women supporting each other.

Or have you run into kind of more of a, sometimes a competition or I

call it the mean girls, like Yeah.

You know, instead of all boats rise, it's, yeah, my boat's gonna rise and

I'm gonna try to put a hole in yours.

No, and I think I've really.

I've sort of been reading about that more recently too, and so far everybody's been

really supportive and That's awesome.

We made, I was talking to you about this, we made this guide, it's like,

what can we do as a, as a committee?

You know, I was a charter member, so it's like we hadn't really, you know,

it was like, what, what can we do for this community of women in stem?

And one was we decided that we were gonna create a scholarship, so we.

We gave our first one out last year.

We give money to women who are in our industry to help pay off their

student debt because student debt for women is typically, women in

engineering is typically higher as well.

And so we did that.

We also created this guide and we're still not sure what to do with that yet.

Mm-hmm.

But everybody took a part and it was.

Sort of anonymous, you know, who, which part you did.

And we did on work, life balance, on culture, travel, interviewing,

negotiating as as a woman in STEM and how we've navigated these things.

And so we kind of wrote advice and war stories as well.

I love like, so

it's kind of like a guidebook of, hey, you wanna get into stem?

Yeah.

Here's a manual or like a, a life.

Jacket of things to consider.

Things to do, which is really great and really empowering because you know what

I'm hearing you say is like, Everyone has a different experience, right.

This the newer generation mm-hmm.

Of women in stem and I, I feel like it's just women in general and male

dominated businesses, industries have like this, you know, Hey, we went through

this and we broke some doors for you and we're gonna hold the door open.

Yeah.

And we're also gonna help you on your journey.

Yeah.

Whereas, you know, my experience was I went through this and you're gonna have

to go through it to earn your stripes.

And I think that Yeah.

You know, that, that just that simple mindset shift of.

Will help you.

Sup supporting.

Right.

We didn't want you to go through that.

Right.

So this is what you can do to avoid it.

Right.

Just, it can only help.

I love

that so much.

And so when we talk about the negotiating piece of it, how did that help you

Uhhuh in negotiating, you know, your.

Yeah.

New opportunity for your

job.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, this opportunity came along.

Somebody reached out to me and said, do you wanna talk to us?

And it's like, oh, I'm pretty happy in my job, but I'll talk to you.

Mm-hmm.

And researched it a bit more.

I knew this company already.

I'd worked with them in my career for 20 years with their equipment.

Mm-hmm.

They were 10 minutes down the street, which was huge too.

Yeah.

And, And I just thought, oh, go for it.

And I talked to them and then I went through like three rounds of interviews.

Like the last round was about seven hours of interviews.

Oh my goodness.

Okay.

Um, and I got an offer.

My partner told me I should, I.

I should channel my inner white male,

right?

The confidence of a mediocre white male.

Yes.

Um, and I should ask for more, and that more was, was more money.

And it was also, I felt like I wanted to have the same vacation because

to keep that work life balance.

And I was terrified to ask.

Mm-hmm.

And it was very uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm.

But I thought I have to do it because I have to do it for other women too.

Yes.

And so I did, and my manager called me and said, well, we

got all that approved by hr.

Oh

wow.

Because of what you ask for, but what a, what a great, a

beautiful example of leadership.

Yeah.

I mean, that is, yeah.

Stepping up that's leading, that's not, it doesn't take away being nervous or scared.

Yeah.

It's doing it anyway.

Yeah.

It's just stepping out of your comfort zone and doing it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I don't regret two months in.

I don't regret my decision.

And, and I, I do miss my old company.

They were great.

And they've all said to me, you know, you can come back whenever you want.

So having all of that is nice.

Right.

Um, I'm learning and I'm stretching and pushing, and I needed to do that.

Mm-hmm.

And so, but I was worried because it was, it's in the office

and I was working from home.

Mm-hmm.

So I've got two.

Young boys.

Yes.

10, 13 or almost 13.

And so, um, they're into.

Soccer and climbing and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

So I just thought, how am I gonna balance this out?

But they are at the age, and I think this job came along at the right

time, that they can come home from school, they can be on their own

for an hour or so, they have reading and homework until I get home.

You know, that they're with me every other week.

Mm-hmm.

So, It just, something fell into place.

I love

it.

It's hard to remember in the moment, but I believe that every

opportunity or the universe gives you what you need when you need it.

Yeah.

You know, even, you know, not necessarily good or bad.

Mm-hmm.

It's just the medicine that you need.

Yeah.

And you know, you have the free will to make the decision to accept it or not.

Either it may come back around or it won't.

Yeah.

And.

Being a single mom is tough.

Mm-hmm.

It's hard.

And I know as a single mom for a long time, that invisible work again,

that the sports, the, you know, managing schedules and everything.

Yeah.

Even half the time, you still have to make sure that that's gonna work.

Yeah.

And do you find that with your boys now that there's this level

of trust that's kind of cool how it works in the relationship?

Yeah, I think that they.

Appreciate that, you know, I'm going out to work to keep a

roof over their head and mm-hmm.

And I mean, that was also a big step for me, thinking I have to go

into a new job and, and boy, I have to keep my salary because I need

to pay my mortgage and, you know.

Mm-hmm.

All that responsibility.

And, but it was also comforting to know that I've been in the industry

a long time, that I think it would be okay if it didn't work out, you know?

Right.

But yeah, they seem to be proud of me now.

Like they, they were really happy to see me when I came home from work, you know,

whereas they'd come back and I'd be at my office and, oh, mommy, see your badge?

That's really cool, you know?

Aw, that's awesome.

Um, so it's, yeah.

Amazing boys.

I think they just, maybe this going into the office has, has given them a better

appreciation of the other things that I do and they seem to, you know, maybe

not complain as much when they have to empty the dishwasher or, yeah, that's,

that's very true.

It's, I need that help.

Right.

And, and they're old enough, you know, I always tell my son, if you're old

enough to use your iPad, you can figure out other things around the house.

Yeah.

You know, whether it's the.

Washing machine or helping around with the dishes and stuff like that.

Right.

You know, it reminds me as we're talking, I chatted with.

Dr.

Colleen Foster mm-hmm.

A while ago, and she's a very industrious, you know, Uhhuh, we're all part of

the same community, in my opinion.

Uhhuh, and, you know, she was talking about her experience through med

school and how, you know, when you're a woman in a male dominated profession,

there's a lot of other things of that, like kind of invisible, her

male colleagues had kids and mm-hmm.

Seemed to be okay.

And she's like, I couldn't even imagine having a child during residency and

all that, because yeah, the stuff that.

There are just some things that we have to do as moms, right.

That we can't, you know, like growing the human right.

Our partners can't do.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And just how.

How much all that work and, you know, laying that foundation, I

believe sets you up to take the leap.

Mm-hmm.

You know, to move out because look at all the amazing things that you do already.

Yeah.

You know, that you, you've got this.

Yeah.

You know that.

And it may not seem like, it may not be that clear in the moment, but I think

there's that nudge that, okay, I'm scared I'm gonna take the leap because I know

I can handle a million different things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, yeah, just navigating that, navigating.

Pregnancy and working full-time in that, you know?

Yeah.

Is uh, and I was traveling a lot as well and having to.

Pump milk when I was on the road and Yes.

And explain that to my coworkers.

And they're like, well, you know, you have to take all this stuff

and why do you need to do that?

I'm like, I need to still feed my child.

Right, right,

right.

Like that that is, that is all part of

it.

Yeah.

And it's my choice to do it that way, but that should be okay.

Yeah.

That shouldn't, there should be no shame.

Yeah.

In that.

And so I think in, you know, as we continue to normalize that or make it.

Not just applicable, like we've done this.

Mm-hmm.

But you know mm-hmm.

Helping the next generation of women mm-hmm.

Be like, all right, you can do this.

Instead of like, you can't do it all.

And you know, I always say work-life balance is important,

but really being stable.

Mm-hmm.

And having that stability in your life in general Yeah.

Is just as important because then you can focus on work.

When you're at work, you can, you know, turn your brain off when you're at home.

And creating that stability I think is really, The foundation

of why self-care is so important.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what do you do now that you know the boys are older and

you've got a million things?

How do you take care of yourself?

What does your self-care look

like?

So, When you said the work-life balance.

So I, um, was part of a webinar recently and talked about that, and I was like,

I'm not sure why I'm doing this part.

I'm not sure I have that work-life balance, but I, I, one of the speakers

talked about it not being a balance, it being, or an achievement, it's a cycle.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So it's, it's always changing.

Mm-hmm.

And some things have to give sometimes, and then you have

to just give yourself grace.

So that's, that's okay.

And then what I said earlier about recognizing in my.

Body, the feeling I get when, when the doctor told me to not stop running.

Mm-hmm.

And so exercise is huge and I know that if I don't, I don't

feel as well sort of mentally.

Right.

You know, I don't feel I can give my best and mm-hmm.

Also, on that point, when I got divorced and before that we went

through some marriage counseling.

Mm-hmm.

And.

I was so worried about the children, about through all this.

And you're just natural too.

Right.

And she said they're gonna be fine if you are fine.

Oh, and you take care of yourself first.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's not natural to think that way.

Right?

No, that gives me

goosebumps.

Yeah.

Cause I remember hearing the same thing as I, you know that the kids are resilient.

Mm-hmm.

And they're gonna be okay.

Yeah.

But you need to be okay too.

Yeah.

And I've wa I watched it play out with my son.

I mean, we had some pretty bumpy times.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I would be crying and he would be crying.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, then when I started to really kind of get to the root of things

and making better, you know, mm-hmm.

Not better, but just making choices to put myself first.

Mm-hmm.

He changed too.

Yeah.

And it became this amazing.

Like the better I do, the better he is.

Yeah.

I'm like, that's

pretty powerful.

Yeah.

You see that Like I see my.

Kids are doing, you know, I, I think they're hope they're,

they're even doing okay.

Right.

And they're able to talk about it too, and cry and whatever.

And it's important, especially as boys to, to do that.

Yeah.

But then, yeah, so having something to just think about yourself and

for me was going through divorce and before that I, I started pottery

classes and I loved, and that's my.

Thing.

I just, I could go there, I could completely switch off.

Mm-hmm.

I could use the other side of my brain that's opposite to what I do for work.

Yes.

And I could just create something that made me happy and I like

to make functional things.

Right.

That's what I did.

And, and I notice it recently.

I, I haven't been able to do it because in the last, well since.

Maybe Covid because of the schedules for the kids get into

the classes and I miss it so much.

Mm-hmm.

Over Covid.

Actually, I rented a wheel they might put into my garage.

Like you could do that for 10 days.

And so I, I kept it up a bit then Uhhuh.

Um, but yeah, I, and so I've been, you know, sort of finding other

things to do until I can get back to that, because I know I will.

Yes.

And that was something that I.

Definitely love doing to take my mind off things.

Well, not creativity I think is just so important to, especially cuz

my brain, I typically function in the.

Right side of my brain.

Yes.

Like I am.

That's uhhuh, you know, just really, I work really hard for the detail,

the engineer side of my brain.

It's really hard for me, Uhhuh.

And if I don't have that outlet, whether it's writing or just

music or something, yeah.

I start to go crazy.

Yeah.

And I'm cranky.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I notice that and, and like sleep.

Like that's huge as well.

Mm-hmm.

And I'll notice that I'm cranky and I, I'll communicate that to the kids too.

And I'll either say, Look, this has been hard, or I hadn't slept well or something.

So they understand and I'll apologize and say, look, you

know, yeah, we have these times.

And so it's, I think it's important they hear that from me.

Oh, yeah.

Well, you're modeling an incredible gift to them.

I don't know, but I didn't have that.

You know, and I don't think, cuz you know, my parents didn't have that capacity to be

like, look, I'm really tired and stressed out, so I'm a little cranky right now.

You know?

Yeah.

And I just thought it was always my fault.

And so to let your boys know that, hey, no, this is normal.

Feelings are okay.

Yeah.

Right.

You can have all the feelings.

Right.

There's no shame in that.

Yeah.

And just normalize it.

You're, you're doing them a favor when they grow up, you're doing

their, you know, partners favors when, you know, they get relationships.

You know, that's, it's changing that cycle.

Yeah.

Because I think I had that in my childhood was kind of up and down.

Those in my parents got divorced.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I remember a lot.

Shouting, A lot of worrying about, you know, who's gonna pack their bags next,

or, you know, so it was sort of, mm-hmm.

Uncertainty and, and not really talked about either.

Even my son.

Still worries about that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, I don't think, you know, it's that lifelong

conversation about divorce and yeah.

His dad and I have been divorced for almost nine years.

Mm-hmm.

Um, nine and a half years now.

But it's that constant conversation.

So, you know, when he sees conflict, he automatically is

like, I'm afraid I'm scared.

I don't wanna have to move, I don't wanna, you know, all these things.

And it breaks my heart to just reassure 'em.

And then it also puts me in check, like, man, I gotta.

Right.

Remember, they're always watching.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Watching and listening.

Yep.

Yep.

And feeling right.

Yeah.

And just acknowledging that.

I think that's fantastic.

Yeah.

So your self-care, you run, you create.

How does your community, outside of your engineering community, Uhhuh and

you know, how has that morphed and changed over the years to kinda, you

know, cause it does, you know it Yep.

Ebbs and

flows.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Since I've been in Colorado mm-hmm.

Which has been most of the kids' life.

Mm-hmm.

Just a little over half of Toby's life is moving there.

Was out here into the neighborhood, was really great.

Didn't really appreciate.

That community before buying the house?

Mm-hmm.

What, what would, what would happen sort of there.

Right.

And it just, the fact that there were kids that were all growing up,

that they were same age, they could just be in the neighborhood course.

That's huge.

And I couldn't have done that in San Francisco.

Um, probably could have done it in Minnesota, but might not

have had as many friends there.

You're right.

Um, but had this huge group of friends and that changed and.

The community.

My village was broken for a little while.

Mm-hmm.

Which was heartbreaking.

Yes.

But my friends that were really, my friends are still there.

They're, the whole neighborhood in itself is.

Wonderful.

And I've stayed there and they've been very supportive.

Mm-hmm.

And the kids have kept their friends there, and I think that's really

important for their stability too.

Mm-hmm.

That's been huge for me.

My, my neighbors are amazing.

Like they're, they, they say like, they're their kids, surrogate grandparents.

They're a little older.

And so with my family being so far away in England, right.

And Australia, it's nice to have.

People there that, that aren't their direct relatives that care for all of us.

Yeah.

And I know that's the case in the US too.

You know, everybody's family's spread everywhere.

Mm-hmm.

But to have that community there is been huge.

Well, it's priceless.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, a good friend of mine, she often says that

relationships, communities, you know, friendships, All of it.

It's like a garden, you know?

It's the metaphor.

And sometimes you get weeds in your garden.

Uhhuh, sometimes you have to pull the weeds out.

Yeah.

Sometimes the weeds, that's great analogy.

Analogy.

It, it makes it pretty obvious which weeds have to go uhhuh.

Um, you know, and, and sometimes you don't know if it's a flower or a weed.

Yeah.

Until

you know, you a little bit longer in, in the process, you're

like, oh yeah, I can pull that out.

Yeah.

I don't need that.

And the resiliency of the garden that the flowers that are meant

to be there stay there and you know, you make space for more.

Mm-hmm.

And so sometimes, you know, and that's just again, another cycle of life.

Mm-hmm.

That it's not always easy.

And it's still, the flowers will come back.

So your true people Yes.

Will stay in your life and, and it makes, you know, space for more people Right.

To come into your village.

It's the, you know, kind of yucky part of life, I guess.

Mm-hmm.

Or the, you know, but

it's also stronger.

It's.

You know, it does, it does.

It's the, the resilience and Yeah.

You know, it's, I, I laugh.

Um, you know, and sometimes when I remember when being in a really dark

place, we're like, well, you know, God doesn't give you more than you can handle.

And I'm like, I disagree.

Mm-hmm.

Because I feel like I'm at max capacity right now and I can't handle anymore.

Yeah.

And then it does, you know, all storms run outta rain, right.

Yeah.

So it does.

Get better eventually.

I think

talking about, yeah, when you say about stuff that you have to do for your

body or exercise, it's just sort of maybe freeing up some of that mental space.

Yeah.

Isn't it just, you know, you talked about with your mom, with the financial

stuff and I just think, gosh, yes.

If you haven't got any of that to worry about, that's a huge weight off your mind.

Oh

yeah.

Especially so many people do worry about that.

Yeah.

You know, and I, my financial journey was a hot mess until maybe.

Six years ago, Uhhuh, that I didn't, you know, and when I could lay that

down and put that away, holy cow.

That was

a game changer.

Yeah.

And the same thing.

I think moving into this job has allowed me maybe with a little

more money, like I'm gonna start finishing my basement in next month.

Yes.

And I'm so proud of.

Doing that by myself.

Right, right.

There's, and, and that took the leap.

It would've taken it longer point to get that before.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So,

well, and again, and it's showing that you can do this and that, you

know, when you are in a position where you can make financial decisions or

decisions to take care of yourself, decisions, you know, Independently.

I think it also frees up that space of finding a healthier

relationship with other people.

Yeah.

Because it's not a need.

Yeah.

It's not a right, I have to do this because of my need, my basic needs met.

It's like, no, I'm gonna do this because I like you and you know,

we have a great, you know, so I think that is another benefit to.

Buckling down and just taking care of, again, self-care.

It's not always the personal stuff, like you said.

I agree with that completely.

And I talk about that, you know, a lot when I talk to men about mm-hmm.

Self-care.

In fact, I think I'm gonna change it from self-care to self maintenance.

Okay.

Yeah.

That

capacity, giving them space to just be Yeah.

And slow down and figure out what's important and because.

A lot of things are important, but if, you know, the analogy

I use is like a cheeseboard.

If you write down everything in your life that's important, and

it's a piece of cheese, we always pay attention to the cheese.

But if you've got all that cheese on a paper plate, you know that foundation is

your self-care and your self maintenance.

You've gotta have, you've gotta be able to support it or it's just gonna fall off.

Yeah.

That's great too.

I like speaking metaphors sometimes.

Could be the coffee this morning.

I'm not really sure.

Um, alright, well as you know, we kind of wrap up this conversation.

I would love to know if you could go back to your 15 year old self.

And give a piece of advice.

Mm-hmm.

What would it be?

Mm-hmm.

What would you tell

15 year olds?

I know I said last time you should say, don't kiss that boy.

I mean, that's still relevant, right?

Just, just don't go

there.

Right, right.

Trust,

no.

Having that.

Network around.

You always talk to people.

Just having people there that can support you and is huge.

Just having your village.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of the times it's who you know, not what you know.

And then also having hobbies that really find your passion

because that can support you too.

Like you may, you know, you could.

Just go on through your life and doing your job and you know, but to have

something and, and maybe, maybe you're passionate about your job, which is great,

but having something that you are do feel passionate about is, is important.

Wow, man.

I agree.

Because you don't wanna become your, you know, your identity.

You wanna be yourself, and I think it's easy.

With our profession sometimes to get wrapped up in that as part of

our identity, and that's who I am.

But if you have a passion or a hobby Yeah.

Sticking with that and you know, feeding your

soul.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's right.

Feeding your soul.

And, and I was trying to find that for my boys too.

Mm-hmm.

I find what they're passionate about because once you find something like that,

it helps you in the rest of your life.

Oh yes.

And like I just, My oldest son, I think he, it was really hard to find what he.

Was passionate about my younger one, you could see dancing and singing in sport

and like it was all these things that uhhuh he, you know, but for the old one

it was difficult and he went to climbing and he would not stop talking about it.

Really?

Really.

And that's a skill that he could have through his life.

Yeah.

So something that, a skill that you could, you could just carry

on through that can help you.

Help you.

So,

oh, that's awesome.

You know, it.

I'm not a climber because that terrifies me.

I don't like that terrifies me too.

Yeah.

Not a fan.

But it's that cuz it keeps you present.

Yeah.

It keeps you focused, it keeps you mindful.

Yeah.

It, you know, works all these really core muscles, which my core muscles

are not a fan of that much work.

Have muscles actually.

Like I, I did like hang on the side of a boulder once and I was like, Oh my gosh,

my abs hurt for a month, I feel like.

Um, so that's, it's a gift.

And I just think extracurricular activities, you know, when you're

a kid it's fun and it's play.

Yeah.

And I think as adults we lose that fun.

Yes.

And that, you know, ability to just have fun and connect with that, you know, inner

child, which, you know, is still there.

Yeah.

Being like, well, we wanna have fun.

Yeah.

And the discipline that you learn from that and the, you know, Uh,

whether it's, you know, singing with your younger son mm-hmm.

And that, that's a skill that you learn to be comfortable in

front of large groups of people.

Right.

You know, so there's all these skills that translate.

Yeah.

And as long as it's fun, I don't know about you, but my

little guy is in baseball right now and it's pseudo competi.

So, uh, we're.

Baseball family like all the time.

And I told them, as long as it's fun, once you start not liking it

or feel that you have to do it.

Yeah.

It's not fun.

No.

And you don't have to do it anymore.

Yeah.

And I, I think that's the way I grew up and playing sports ever in England

is, and, and maybe I just wasn't good enough to be in those positive teams, but

I played a lot of different sports and.

It was, it was always fun.

Yes.

And I find now, you know, my younger son is in competitive soccer and the

older one has stayed in rec soccer, which is exactly their character.

Mm-hmm.

And I just said, and he and the younger one loves it.

And I said, you do it for as long as you love it.

If there's any point where three practices a week and game,

which is ridiculous, it's Amen.

Too much.

Yes.

Then you tell me because I want you to love it.

And yeah.

So now I'm, you know, I'm thinking about putting him into rec.

He still loves it, but it's just, Too much, they should be doing other things.

Mm-hmm.

Like he was doing theater for a while and then he said, I don't

wanna do theater because I, you know, wanna concentrate on soccer.

I said, you should be doing lots of different things to your brain.

I know, I agree.

I try to do the same thing.

Yeah.

I try to do the same thing.

I try to, Push gently nudge, yes, I know you love soccer, but I think

you should do like an art, whether it's theater or dance or you know.

And then I think also the society kind of the pressures right of that and you know,

but trusting your gut and knowing that sometimes mom knows

best and he pushed back on doing theater and he loved it, you know?

Right.

So just, I think another thing is like trusting your gut.

And that's what I tell my boys.

I said, if something.

Doesn't feel right.

It probably isn't right.

Mm-hmm.

What a great gift.

Another gift to give Uhhuh, you know, that I never got that message

of, you know, like when the alarm bells go off or the hairs on the

back of your neck stand up or, yeah.

There's an amazing book about it.

It's called The Gift of Fear.

Okay.

And it's, I think it's Gavin.

Becker, but he talks about that like we all have this innate sixth sense.

Yeah.

That our intuition is right and we bury that intuition with society and pressure

and, you know, whatever social media and fake reality that we don't have that, that

true compass of listening to ourselves.

Yeah.

Which.

One other question.

It just popped into my head.

How are you, what is your stance on social media with your boys and

smartphones?

So my boys just got data.

So because of the split household, they had our old phones anyways.

You know, it's easy, they can text me whenever, but it was only, only

had wifi and they recently got data.

There wasn't a conversation about that and that wasn't my choice.

So there was a conversation about that after.

So they don't have things like.

TikTok or you know, social media.

Social media yet, and I told them that I will look at their phones until

they're at least 16 and so they can write whatever they want, but know that.

I'm gonna see it.

Actually, I said this recently just to be kind, like, if you

can't say anything yes, nice.

Just don't say it.

And Right.

There are some words that I've seen in some texts.

I'm like, just, I, I don't see the point in that.

Or there's, you know, big groups of texts and I just said, just come off it.

It's, you know, so it's really hard to keep on top of that stuff and mm-hmm.

I have, you know, all the controls in place, but they still.

They'll, they'll still find things.

I know

they're, they're, yeah.

We're getting ready to, you know, as my little guy gets ready to graduate

from fifth grade, that was the deal.

Okay.

He gets a phone and I'm terrified of it.

Yeah.

Mostly cuz it's that.

Protection.

I wanna protect him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I wanna keep him safe.

Yeah.

And don't want him to go down this rabbit hole of Yeah.

You know, so we've been talking about it, but that's, I appreciate your Yeah.

Your answer to that.

Cause I'm like, okay, I'm not the only person.

Yeah.

There are lot of thoughts I have on that, so we can talk about that.

Perfect.

Perfect.

Well sir, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

And I'll put all your information in the show notes and if.

You know, you want people to reach out to you if they have

questions about stem Sure.

Or anything like that.

That'll all be in there.

Yeah.

All right.

Sounds great.

Thank you.

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