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SMART Shelters with guest Dan Ettinger
Episode 6624th July 2024 • The Animal Welfare Junction • A. Michelle Gonzalez, DVM, MS
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Dan Ettinger, host of The Animal Control Report, joins Dr. G to discuss SMART animal shelters and its goal to Save More Animals Responsibly Together.

For more information on SMART, visit www.keepithumane.com

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Transcripts

DrG:

Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today's guest is a repeat

offender, Dan Ettinger, host

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of the Animal Control Report.

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Thanks for being here.

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Dan Ettinger: Wow, I don't know if

that's a good title or a bad title,

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but I, I love being here and I

appreciate, uh, just everything you're

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doing on this show and I'm glad we

can, we can set up times to chat.

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So this is great.

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DrG: Thanks.

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So for anybody that has not listened to

any of these episodes or doesn't follow

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your podcast, you want to give a quick.

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What do you do and who you are?

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Dan Ettinger: Yeah.

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So I guess we'll start with, I am, it's,

it feels so weird saying this, but I

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was like, I have to figure out a way

to properly account for what I do with

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the side company that I have,

which is keep it humane.

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You could find that at keep it humane.

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com.

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And I guess I'm the CEO and

president of said company.

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And really it's focused on a

couple of different things.

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Obviously the podcast that we have.

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Which is the animal control report,

the podcast network that we have, which

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is the keep it humane podcast network,

which includes the animal welfare

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junction and a few other podcasts.

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Um, so, and the other part of that is

like doing consulting and teaching.

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Um, I like to do that stuff on the side.

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And, and then other piece under that

is the smart shelter concept that

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you and I actually came up with.

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DrG: And we're going to be talking a

little bit about that, um, just because,

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well, actually, do you want to let our

listeners know about this case that

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we were discussing a little bit ago?

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Dan Ettinger: So.

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I did a quick Google search

to like determine what's out

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there in the news these days.

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And I found this article about

Greenville County's animal shelter.

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And this is from the post

and courier in Greenville.

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So the Greenville County animal

shelter was once no kill.

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A surge of dogs has changed that.

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And so the article really, and I'm not

going to read it word for word just

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because it's a fairly Fairly long article,

but I'll, I'll jump in really quick.

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So it gives some backstory, uh,

Greenville each morning staff at

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Greenville County's animal shelter start

the day with all their kennels full,

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more strays arrive as the day passes

and an increasingly large numbers.

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Let me try that again.

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And in increasingly larger numbers.

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Over the years, Shelley Simmons has seen

both worse and better, only to lose ground

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in the shelter effort to keep the no

kill status it worked hard to achieve.

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When she began as the director

in Greenville County Animal Care

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in 2007, the shelter took in more

than 20, 000 animals by year.

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By 2019, that number was below 9, 000.

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The shelter was making strides.

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Programs like spaying and neutering

intended to reduce the number of

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animals coming into the shelter.

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The shelter was making strides.

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Programs like spaying and neutering

intended to reduce the number of animals

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coming into the shelter were working.

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She said in an interview with the Post

and Courier, as a result, the number

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of animals being euthanized declined

nificantly from about half in:

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To about 9 percent in 2019 below

the 10 percent qualified the shelter

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for the no kill status, a goal that

Simmons had long worked towards.

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And then she talks about the pandemic

hitting in:

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And now their numbers

not being below the 10%.

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And so that's kind of the,

the gist of the article, which

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we're hearing more and more.

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And, I actually have some personal

experience with Greenville County and I'm

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grateful to say I was there earlier this

year in:

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and consulting and talk to them about just

the different options of, of, I would say

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like using terms like no kill sounds great

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on the outside and save them all

sounds great from like a marketing

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standpoint, but is that truly

what represents our shelters?

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And so we did a session on smart,

I did a session on smart there

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and it was received fairly well.

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And you know, it just goes back

to this arbitrary goal and number.

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I don't know why it's become so

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popular or such a trend in our industry.

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And it's led us to things of like,

staff, I think it creates an issue with

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staff because staff feels overwhelmed,

uh, trying to get numbers down.

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And the reality is no one wants to

euthanize, but we have to respect

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and understand the fact of like,

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These situations are fluid.

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Every city, every County, every

animal shelter is different.

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And so, you know, they may have

been able to achieve that status

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for several years, but maybe there's

different growth in their community.

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Uh, people are moving in or more

people got animals during the pandemic.

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And now they're starting to

see some of those animals that

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didn't get spayed and neutered.

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And let me tell you, I'm actually

friends with, uh, they're one

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of their veterinarians there.

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And, uh, they, they have a facility

at the shelter that is dedicated to

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spaying and neutering pets in their

community and it's free to people

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that are on government assistance.

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And I got to sit there and kind

of watch that process for a day.

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And it's amazing.

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I mean, they do close to 10, 000 spay and

neuters a year and it's almost still not

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enough as we can see with their numbers.

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Now, the other part is They're a big

county, and maybe some of those animals,

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unbeknownst to them, come in from other

counties as well, so it's very possible

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that some of the animals that they're

seeing in their county maybe not,

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are maybe not specific to Greenville.

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DrG: So I have to say, you know,

when I was growing up, I never

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went to the Humane Society.

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And the reason I didn't go to

the Humane Society is because it

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was, a very high kill facility.

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And to me growing up, you know back then I

wanted to be a veterinarian I really liked

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animals or whatever and I did not want

to go to a place That I felt guilty that

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I was going to walk in and if I picked

one animal I was saving that one, but I

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was leaving the rest of them just to die.

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Right.

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So that was my perception as, as I was

growing up, but then I grew up and then

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I realized that not every shelter is

like that, that that's not what happens.

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And that sometimes it's a necessary evil.

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Right.

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Um, so my, my perception has changed.

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I have evolved.

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Um, so One of the, one of the things

I guess that I do want to talk about

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is there, there has been a shift,

you know, I think that way back when

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there was more killing happening in

shelters, and, and shelters and animal

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control facilities and dog pounds

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did not seem to be looking

for ways to fix the problem.

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They just had a job to pick them

up, bring them in, and then if they

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couldn't come out, euthanize them.

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So how about we talk a little bit

about the history of how, Oh, kind of

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like the kill movement started because

it, it started long, long time ago.

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Dan Ettinger: I'm glad you asked

because one of my favorite articles

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and not favorite in the aspects

of like, I really think there's

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articles like my fit, like, right.

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It's my favorite from understanding the

history of, of our profession, meaning

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like the animal control officers and such.

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And so this blog called sniffing the

past, uh, it was actually written

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by Chris Pearson and he is a senior

lecturer of about 20th century history.

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And what he did is he went

back and found something called

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the 1811 law concerning dogs.

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And this law concerning dogs was very

specific to the public safety aspect

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and how, you know, rabies was a concern.

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Uh, aggression was a concern because

back in the day, these dogs just lived

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outside and would just roam the streets.

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And so they might be in packs, uh,

they might have behavioral problems.

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And so what he found is they

basically put a bounty on dogs.

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And what it says is that, you know, there

was a, first off there was a tax, a 3

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tax to dog owners, and then the bounty.

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or the law allowed you to

basically kill any dog found

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outside the lamppost district of

the New York metropolitan area.

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And then they would bring these

bodies in and collect a bounty.

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Um, and they would kill

them very barbarically.

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And I was, there's a few books

that I've read about it as well.

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Um, and when you, when you think about

like some of the acts that Like a

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person would literally bludgeon dogs

to death, uh, horribly, or if they

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made it at the shelter and they weren't

claimed within like 24 hours, they

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would get loaded into iron cages and

then just dunked in the East river,

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where they would be held underwater

for approximately seven minutes.

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And in any case, though, it

sounds very almost impossible.

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Any case where a dog came up alive, it

would then get bludgeoned, uh, to death.

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So that's like barbarism.

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If that's a word, we do that a lot

on our podcast, we just make up

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words, but that's so barbaric in the

aspects of like, When these no kill

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phrases come out, it's like, no shit.

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We're no one's killing.

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Like we're not killing.

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We're euthanizing, which

is ending suffering.

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Like there's a difference between

killing, which is like this barbaric

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bludgeoning murdering of an animal

to like humanely euthanizing an

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animal with care and compassion.

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And there's a huge difference there.

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Um, and it's just, it's, as you can tell,

I get frustrated just talking about it.

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DrG: And, and again, like there is

a difference between that and kind

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of like the needing to, to euthanize

and the, and the movement at the

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very beginning seemed to be going

in a really good direction, right?

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With the, with the, um,

A-S-P-C-A and, Caroline Earl

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Dan Ettinger: White.

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Yes.

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And then George Thorndyke, angel, all

those folks were very, um, very like,

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active in just raising awareness, uh, RA,

ra raising, raising, raising awareness

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in, um, in those, in that moment.

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So, yeah, it was.

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DrG: Yeah, so it was kind of nice

seeing that, you know, these people

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became involved and they saw that the

killing of dogs, um, was just useless.

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It was barbaric.

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And then they wanted to change things

into where animals would have a

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place as a shelter, as a safe haven

that they could be brought into.

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And then You know, be adopted out.

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And then in the case that they did

have to be euthanized for whatever

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reason, then it would be done humanely.

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Dan Ettinger: Yeah.

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DrG: So then we go from there to then

the idea of no, not killing anything.

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And I, and I, what I really dislike

about the term no kill is the word

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kill, because I think that is an

inflammatory word, it's, it's a word

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used to create a reaction, right?

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We are saying that we're killing animals.

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And I think that that's used a

little bit on purpose just to,

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just to get the public worked up.

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Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

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I think it's, I mean, it's genius.

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I, in the aspects of like marketing,

we are in a time and age where it's

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all about catching the attention of

people to fundraise, to ensure that

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there are funds to Do some of the great

projects that some of these organizations

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do, but it's a misleading term.

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And it, to me, takes us away from

the true, um, the true issue at hand.

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DrG: And terms that are important.

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And I think that, I mean, there's a

lot of misuse of terms or sometimes

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people don't understand definition.

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So like when I was, Uh, looking into

smart, one of the things that I looked

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up was kind of like what is the purpose

of a humane society, the purpose of

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an animal shelter, the purpose of,

uh, uh, I say animal control and

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the terms are misused often, right?

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Because humane society tends to be,

uh, uh, an organization that promotes

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humane ideals and treatment of animals.

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So not necessarily an animal shelter, but

there are plenty of animal shelters that

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use the word humane society within their

name, where, you know, the animal shelters

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is going to be more the establishment

that houses animals temporarily,

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and then they have to make the decision

to euthanize homeless animals, uh,

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if they're unsuitable for adoption.

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And then when we get into animal control,

You can talk about this better than I

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can, because I'm not an animal control

officer that the, the purpose of an

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animal control officer is public safety.

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Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

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DrG: So when, you know, when, when

some of these organizations are making

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decisions on not euthanizing, especially

my, my pet peeve is aggressive animals.

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You know, I, I feel bad for animals

that, that are sick, that are

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injured and that kind of stuff.

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But, When we are making decisions with

animals that are extremely aggressive,

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especially when they have a long bite

history or severe bite history, then

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we are forgetting the fact that we have

to protect other animals and the public

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from aggressive or dangerous animals.

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Dan Ettinger: And, and that's like

the, like, that's, that's what blows me

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away is like, that was the foundation.

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Of all of this and it doesn't mean that

we can't change I'm totally open to change

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but like the all the reason that we're

here is public safety and from that birth

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The animal shelter or the humane societies

or whatever title we want to use but it

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was it was created and born because of

the the need for These, these pets that

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were causing an issue in the community.

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And then some of the innocent ones ended

up as strays in our animal shelters.

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And, you know, back then we didn't

have, there was probably more purebreds.

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And so some of the purebreds would

be adopted out and therefore you

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have the animal shelter aspect.

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DrG: Yeah.

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So, I mean, we went from

indiscriminate killing to a humane

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approach to euthanasia, to now.

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Trying to to do a complete elimination

of euthanasia from shelter.

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Dan Ettinger: Mm hmm

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DrG: Some of the issues that I personally

have is the the requirements and the

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Say the false expectations that it

leads As you as you mentioned earlier,

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you know, we're talking about this 10

percent well a 10 percent may be very

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attainable to humane organizations that

are limited intake, humane organizations

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that are in affluent areas, but me

personally, I travel to a lot of rural

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areas here in Ohio with the Rascal Unit.

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So we're going to a lot of places that

lack veterinary care that lack resources.

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So humane organizations in

those areas, it's impossible to

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hold them to the same standard.

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As other organizations, when,

when they just literally lack the

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resources, they lack the community

to be able to adopt these animals.

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They lack the resources to again, treat

animals with mental or physical illness.

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So we are somewhat setting

them off for failure.

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And then the public sees that and they,

you know, same as when I was little,

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they're going to look at them and be like,

well, I don't want to deal with this place

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because they're just killing everything.

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I want to go somewhere where

they're not killing anything.

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And in the end, it hurts the animals.

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Dan Ettinger: And that's what people

don't understand is like, we can sit here

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and have what we would consider an open

admission animal shelter that can't refuse

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animals coming in because they're, um, You

know, whether it's bound legally through

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their state laws where it's, you know,

an open admission shelter, it may be, um,

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it may be through like their department

of agriculture or things of that nature.

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And then it's like, look, like you

can't turn anything away, but these,

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these open or limited admission

shelters that operate as a nonprofit,

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or somehow we're able to get the, their

county to adopt a fact that, no pun

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intended, that they can be limited with

their admission, it's all it's doing.

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It's it's, it's like, uh, uh, what are

they like robbing Peter to pay Paul?

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Is a saying that you might hear or like

chopping a head off of a two headed

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snake or, you know, there's just like,

it's probably not the greatest analogy

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to use on an animal welfare pod.

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But my point is like, we're

not impacting the community the

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right way by closing our doors.

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And that was something we just talked

about on our latest episode on our podcast

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was, was that just that thing right there?

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It's like, we have to be able to

provide the resources necessary in

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our communities to see a difference.

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And if we don't, then this problem

is going to exist forever, forever.

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We can be creative and try to like foster,

what is it, foster, find her to foster,

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like, that'll help a little bit, sure, um,

or in ramping up our RTOs, that'll help

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a little bit, but at the end of the day,

if people's animals are still reproducing

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as the way that they've been for the

last hundred years and more, we're just

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going to end up in the same place that

we are today, if not in a worse place.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And, and what happens is.

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You know, it's kind of like a no win

situation for people that find themselves

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in the position of needing to surrender

an animal or euthanize an animal, right?

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Because we see them asking for

help and saying, Hey, I found this

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dog, found this dog on the street.

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I found this cat or my cat had a litter.

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My dog had a litter.

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I can't have it.

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So I need a place to be

able to take them to.

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They're given no resource.

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They're given no ability to surrender

that animal, to put him in a safe space.

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And they're told it's your responsibility.

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So unfortunately, there's a lot

of crazy people in this world.

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And once you make it their responsibility

and you take away all their options,

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then horrible things happen, right?

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Um, there was a case from

Kingston, Pennsylvania.

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Uh, it says a man testified that

he has strangled his ailing dog to

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death as a last resort after seeking

help from several animal hospitals.

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which, uh, reportedly required

cash up front to see the

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dog, and an animal shelter.

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He claimed that the dog had stopped eating

and was vomiting and experiencing severe

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diarrhea after eating dirty diapers.

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The dog reportedly vomited in a turn

away facility's lobby and workers

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there told the man to take the dog

to a veterinary hospital, which he

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said he had no money to pay for.

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They allegedly threatened to

call the police if he didn't

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take the dog and leave.

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So is it okay that this

man strangled his dog?

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Absolutely not.

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Like, I am not telling people go do that.

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But you take some, you know, this is

somebody that is seeing his dog in

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pain, he's seeing his dog sick, he

he's trying to make his dog not suffer.

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And he has no resources available.

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And this is what he was pushed to do.

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You know, it is not okay.

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Dan Ettinger: It's not.

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And I can share just a brief story of

something in a sense, somewhat kind

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of similar, I guess you could say.

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So the last shelter I worked at,

we operated in a County, but in our

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County, we had, um, another, we had a

nonprofit that also provided services.

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And we, for whatever reason, we hadn't

figured out how to do this the right way.

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But if someone found an animal in the

nonprofits jurisdiction and brought it

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to our shelter, we would always ask,

Hey, can you bring it 15, 20 minutes

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down the road to the appropriate shelter?

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That way, you know, everything is just

everything is done the correct way.

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We're able to get it, you know,

the fees correctly if there's

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reclaimed fees or if there's prior

history, those types of things.

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So there were, there was that type of

stuff going on and like we had a cut.

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And so oftentimes when I was working at

that shelter, we would have a customer

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customers come in and they'd get so angry

that we wouldn't just accept the dog.

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And I get it.

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They're at an animal shelter.

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They just found a stray.

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They're trying to do the right thing.

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And then they're told no.

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But recently at a case

where there was a person.

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And the dog was very active on the

leash, which was, it wasn't even a leash.

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It was like a ratchet strap

that you use to tie down stuff

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in the back of your truck.

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And I, he was being kind

of rude to our, our team.

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And so they asked me to

come up and talk to him.

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And so I went and talked to him.

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And I was just trying to deescalate,

have a good conversation with him.

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And the dog was rowdy

going back and forth.

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And I was just like, Hey, you

know, I'm just trying to explain

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like where we're coming from.

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If you're able to do this for us, great.

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If not totally understandable, we'll

take the animal and then we'll call

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:

that agency to come pick it up.

355

:

And this person had none of it and just

let the dog go right in our parking lot.

356

:

It took off towards our, all of our

kennels are outdoor kennels here.

357

:

So it, uh, took, took off after,

you know, The noise that it heard.

358

:

And then I went and got the dog, but

this person was so unreasonable, but

359

:

I could imagine that same energy.

360

:

if it was an animal you're

trying to relinquish because you

361

:

can't take care of it anymore.

362

:

Like, I could see why people, not that

I would, not that I condone it, but I

363

:

could see why people would act that way.

364

:

DrG: Yeah, especially people, like if we

talk about people with like mental health

365

:

disease or mental health conditions or

again, I mean, they don't, they don't

366

:

have the funds, they don't have the

resources and dumping animals at the door

367

:

of shelters is happening more is Somebody

finds a dog and then they're told, just,

368

:

just release it where you found it.

369

:

It'll find its way home.

370

:

No, that's, that's not how that works.

371

:

Right.

372

:

And we, we certainly don't want to end

up with street dogs like other countries

373

:

do where they have higher incidence

of rabies, higher incidence of bites.

374

:

You know, stray dogs and stray cats

are completely different things.

375

:

Cats like hide, they run away.

376

:

Hey, they do build their

own colonies or whatever.

377

:

You don't really hear about cats,

packs of cats coming down the down

378

:

the street and attacking a person.

379

:

But in, in other places you do

hear that with packs of dogs.

380

:

Dan Ettinger: And, and that's, that's,

that's where I get kind of confused

381

:

about like where, where we want to

go and where our focus should be.

382

:

Because I think like we should be unified.

383

:

There should be kind of some harmony,

if you will, throughout our industry.

384

:

And it doesn't feel that way.

385

:

It feels like it's very.

386

:

siloed and isolated from each other.

387

:

And you can't, it's almost like

you can't have a differing opinion.

388

:

So like where I stand, I believe

professionally and personally.

389

:

If we want to achieve a no kill status,

if we want to not have to euthanize

390

:

anything, but 10 percent for health

health concerns and behavior concerns,

391

:

then we have to put all our time,

focus and energy on creating resources

392

:

and access to care for our community.

393

:

If we did that, then through attrition,

we're going to get to no kill.

394

:

Like that is practical as practical

can be, but having that opinion seems.

395

:

That it creates this like negative space

with me and, and, and organizations

396

:

that their whole brand are, is no kill.

397

:

And I, I just, I don't understand that.

398

:

I wish I've asked them to like, let's do

a panel discussion at their conference.

399

:

Like, let's open this up.

400

:

And anything that jeopardizes

the integrity of your

401

:

fundraising is scary, truthfully.

402

:

And I think that, you know, and I know

saying this is probably no surprise to

403

:

anybody, but it's like, we all know that

those are brilliant marketing terms and

404

:

it, it, it jeopardizes that integrity

when people understand no kill is this

405

:

nice idea, but it never, it will never

exist unless we focus our time, effort,

406

:

and resources on creating access to care.

407

:

DrG: So speaking of marketing

and how words matter, the

408

:

smart shelter came about.

409

:

So yeah.

410

:

Right.

411

:

So how about.

412

:

You, you tell our listeners

how you started with the whole

413

:

idea for smart sheltering.

414

:

Dan Ettinger: Well, and thank you

for being so humble about that.

415

:

I mean, you had a very

big part in this too.

416

:

Um, I will say it kind of came about

417

:

a lot of different ways for me.

418

:

And so I was a patrol patrol field

services or animal control officer,

419

:

however you would like to define

it, um, for several, several years.

420

:

And the common thing that I would hear

from people, whether it was a golden

421

:

retriever puppy or an American bulldog or

a French bulldog, um, you're not going to

422

:

take it back to the shelter and kill it.

423

:

Are you, are you going to kill it?

424

:

Are you a no kill shelter?

425

:

Are you going to kill it?

426

:

So there was one instance

specifically that really made

427

:

my, made me lose faith in people.

428

:

Dr.

429

:

G.

430

:

It's just like, we can't be

that ignorant as a community.

431

:

So I got called to a school.

432

:

It was a grade school, middle

school, I guess, actually.

433

:

And anytime I would go pick up a

stray, I intentionally would bring

434

:

my microchip scanner because I wanted

to show people how that worked and

435

:

how we were focused on the RTO.

436

:

How could RTO, meaning return to owner

for people that aren't in the industry.

437

:

Um, how could we get, The dog back

to the owner as quickly as possible.

438

:

Cause if we don't bring it into the

shelter, it's just better for everyone.

439

:

It's better for the pet.

440

:

It's better for the person.

441

:

And it's better for our staff.

442

:

And I'm walking into this

school, got microchip scanner

443

:

in hand and I'm just do to do.

444

:

And I see that it's a French bulldog.

445

:

So I'm super excited.

446

:

And I'm like, it's a high probability

that this dog has a microchip.

447

:

It really is.

448

:

So I get in there and there's

two, two teachers there.

449

:

And the first thing out of

one of the teacher's mouth is

450

:

Are you going to kill it?

451

:

DrG: Are you going to kill it?

452

:

Dan Ettinger: That was the

first thing out of her mouth.

453

:

I literally dropped the microchip

scanner, broke the screen, because

454

:

all the screens break every time.

455

:

Don't tell my old boss this.

456

:

Sorry, old boss.

457

:

Um, I was just like, are you,

what are you talking about?

458

:

I was like, you're an educator.

459

:

You're, and I, I'll be honest, I was

a little frustrated at this point.

460

:

I mean, I clearly dropped

the microchip scanner.

461

:

I was just like, what are we doing here?

462

:

And so I tried to have a car, like

22 hindsight being 20, 20, I should

463

:

have had a different conversation.

464

:

I should have not dropped the scanner.

465

:

Cause that was dramatic.

466

:

I did it.

467

:

And then I tried having a conversation and

she was just completely like turned off to

468

:

the idea of just have like turned off to

the idea that any other thing could exist.

469

:

And I was like, look, first

off, this is a French bulldog.

470

:

It probably has a microchip.

471

:

Our goal is not to euthanize.

472

:

This is not how you see us in the

movies that were some like unempathetic,

473

:

untrained, unhealthy dog catcher.

474

:

Like we have compassion, we care, we

want to do what's best for the people.

475

:

We want to do what's best for the animals.

476

:

And so she like stormed out.

477

:

This lady was hot.

478

:

I don't know why she was so mad,

but then her friend or the other

479

:

teacher was actually super reasonable.

480

:

And I was like, if you

could like, here's my card.

481

:

If that person ever wants to have

like a conversation, um, I'd be

482

:

happy to, like, I apologize for me

being dramatic, but I was upset.

483

:

And, um, so that got me thinking.

484

:

And then Colorado, I was there for a

long time and they do some great stuff.

485

:

I feel like Colorado is one of the,

and I know they are based on the ALDF

486

:

for those that don't know what that is.

487

:

That's the animal legal

defense fund, uh, the ALDF.

488

:

org.

489

:

They do a yearly power ranking,

almost of, of best States versus

490

:

worst States in animal welfare.

491

:

And Colorado is always in the top 10.

492

:

They do some great stuff.

493

:

There's some great people in Colorado.

494

:

I'm very, um, proud to say that I, that's

where I got my start in animal welfare.

495

:

It has absolutely shaped me in many

ways, and so I'm grateful for that.

496

:

They came up with this term, a

group of some of the, I would say,

497

:

stakeholders in the state that really

are immersed, immersed in animal welfare.

498

:

Um, we're, they were strategic because

in 20, I'm going to get the dates wrong.

499

:

2018 somewhere in there, uh, the

County of Pueblo, which is South of

500

:

Denver at about two hours created,

and they were a no kill state.

501

:

And so the nonprofit that had the

contract there lost their contract,

502

:

and some group that was not

503

:

skilled or experienced enough came

in and ran the county shelter and it

504

:

it was horrible The state had to come

in you can google it the state had to

505

:

come in And actually do some research,

not research, excuse me, do some, um,

506

:

like heavy ticketing and impounding.

507

:

And they actually like, they had

to shut them down and then agency

508

:

that operated it before it came

back and secured the contract.

509

:

And, uh, it was a mess, but I think

part of that no kill County led to

510

:

these, these stakeholders in Colorado

saying we need to come up with

511

:

something clever and they came up

with socially conscious sheltering.

512

:

Great concept, horrible

name, great concept.

513

:

Horrible name.

514

:

And so I was around that at the time.

515

:

And I think the, you know, if I'm

not involved in something, um, I

516

:

tend to like, if I, if I really like

think that it's something that I want

517

:

to have some input on, you know, I

tend to like create other avenues.

518

:

And so the idea came to birth,

uh, smart, which thanks to Dr.

519

:

G we, we are, we were able

to really get our acronym.

520

:

Um, perfect.

521

:

I don't know how else to say it.

522

:

And so.

523

:

SMART stands for Saving More

Animals Responsibly Together.

524

:

And so the whole ethos of SMART is to lose

any arbitrary number that we have to hit.

525

:

Um, it creates teamwork and collaboration

throughout animal shelters, and

526

:

promotes not only like a great phrase.

527

:

Hey, are you a no kill shelter?

528

:

No, we're actually a smart shelter.

529

:

And let me tell you what that means.

530

:

So it's a great comeback to

this, uh, no kill terminology.

531

:

And kind of a very fun fact for me

because I'm somewhat of a historian

532

:

when it comes to animal welfare is,

533

:

there's still a shelter today in

Denver called the Dumb Friends League.

534

:

Uh, there's an organization in, in the,

in Europe called our Dumb, uh, it's also

535

:

called the Dumb Friends, it might also

be called the Dumb Friends League, but

536

:

it was for, they were for, um, horses.

537

:

Uh, so two of those exist,

which is really cool.

538

:

But what people didn't

understand is in our current day.

539

:

Um, what they don't understand is

back then in the:

540

:

for those that couldn't speak.

541

:

And so there's publications called, um,

our dumb animals, which was a basically

542

:

a magazine put out by George Thorndike

angel, um, where they covered just

543

:

really the humane education aspect of

what we were doing in animal welfare.

544

:

And so it's neat to know that

we've come from dumb being a very

545

:

prominent terminology to this concept.

546

:

Or the birth of SMART, um,

to represent what we should

547

:

be doing in animal shelters.

548

:

DrG: What I like about the acronym, and

I broke it down, I gave a presentation

549

:

a little bit ago, and I said, you know,

the saving more animals because we're

550

:

replacing arbitrary numbers, right?

551

:

So I explained it to

the, to the participants.

552

:

We are saving more animals.

553

:

So if you're in a rural shelter, and you

are at a 40 percent life release rate, and

554

:

you're able to make changes that increase

you to 45, that's a 5 percent improvement.

555

:

So we're not comparing you to

anybody else, but yourself.

556

:

I like to tell people,

worry about yourself.

557

:

Right.

558

:

So, yes, we want to see what

other, what other people are

559

:

doing so that we can get better.

560

:

But it's about what are

you doing to get better?

561

:

I like the term responsibly because

we're recognizing that it's about

562

:

the safety and, and wellbeing of both

the animals and of the community.

563

:

And together, because

it's everybody, right?

564

:

All stakeholders, not just the shelters.

565

:

This is about the veterinarians.

566

:

This is about the community.

567

:

This is about everyone that is involved.

568

:

So SMART, let me say this, the SMART

acronym just literally embodies everything

569

:

that we should be aiming to in, you

know, in the fight to help animals.

570

:

I

571

:

Dan Ettinger: couldn't agree more and

You know, we created a private animal

572

:

or smart shelter group on Facebook where

there's quite a few people already in it.

573

:

And you know, I'll be honest,

my bandwidth is so thin that

574

:

I really wish I could do more.

575

:

And this is basically me putting

out the bat signal, by the way,

576

:

speaking of bat signals, dude, do

you know there's a bumblebee bat?

577

:

It's literally the size of a bumblebee.

578

:

Well, anyway, there's a thing called the

bumblebee bat and I'm really impressed

579

:

by it, but putting out the bat signal,

if anyone is listening and wants to

580

:

take on some more responsibility as

like a volunteer role, please hit

581

:

me up, man, Daniel@keepithumane.com

or just go to keepithumane.com.

582

:

Um, I would love the help cause

we're really, we, we need to

583

:

do is push this out there.

584

:

And take some of that pressure

off of shelters that feel

585

:

like they have to save 90%.

586

:

Get at it, like stop.

587

:

We don't, what we have to do is treat

animals with humane care treatment.

588

:

Keep a public safety, um,

aspect of our community.

589

:

But all this other shit, please, like,

we don't need to just hit this 90%.

590

:

That's, that, to me, that doesn't

show me that you're successful.

591

:

What shows me that you're successful

is you have active programs in your

592

:

community trying to help people help

animals, that you're creating things

593

:

like low cost vaccine clinics, low cost

spay and neuter clinics, doing things

594

:

like the rascal unit does with for you,

like that is how you judge success, not

595

:

off of a 90 percent live release rate.

596

:

So you got a plaque.

597

:

Whoop tee doo!

598

:

What are you gonna do?

599

:

Hang it up in your office and be

proud that you didn't put down an

600

:

animal that's been suffering and

living in a shelter for 600 days.

601

:

We taught, I know I get a

little amped up on this.

602

:

We talk about the five freedoms and

it got adopted, no pun intended into

603

:

the animal shelter world, but it

wasn't, it wasn't created for that.

604

:

It was created for livestock

in the UK, but it sounds cool.

605

:

It sounds nice.

606

:

Well, one of those five freedoms is

freedom to express normal behaviors.

607

:

So if we're adopting this idea of five

freedoms and we have, we're warehousing

608

:

animals in kennels, is it allowed to,

to have normal behavior because of that?

609

:

Absolutely not.

610

:

DrG: Yeah.

611

:

And from, from myself, from a forensic

veterinary forensic side, you know, we

612

:

deal with cases of neglect and cruelty.

613

:

And I, and I think that there are

some cases of neglect that are

614

:

just because people are assholes.

615

:

But then there are cases of neglect that

it's because people do not have resources,

616

:

they do not have access to care.

617

:

So, how, how great would it be to help

not only improve the quality of life of

618

:

animals of owned animals by providing

affordable and accessible care and

619

:

then also decreasing the number of

animals that are suffering because

620

:

the owners don't have these resources?

621

:

And to all the people that say

well if you can't afford an animal

622

:

don't have it get out of here

because that doesn't exist, right?

623

:

If we were to say that I heard the

other day on on another podcast

624

:

about how 60 percent of Americans

live paycheck to paycheck.

625

:

So basically, are you telling

me that 60 percent of Americans

626

:

should not own a dog and a cat?

627

:

Because if that what we're saying,

we're saying that we can adopt

628

:

our way out of this problem.

629

:

Well, we can adopt our way out of this

problem with 40 percent of the population.

630

:

Are we going to be putting like 30

dogs and 50 cats inside of every

631

:

home in the every wealthy home

632

:

in the United States?

633

:

Like that's not going to happen.

634

:

So, you know, we, we talk about

decreasing shelter intake.

635

:

Well, let's decrease it responsibly.

636

:

Let's find out what are the reasons

why some of these individuals are

637

:

surrendering their animals and see

if there is a way that we can help

638

:

keep that animal in their home.

639

:

Because the reality is that

there are quite a few people that

640

:

surrender animals because they're

looking for a better opportunity,

641

:

better life or something for them.

642

:

And they don't, if they have it their

way, they would keep that dog or cat.

643

:

So, you know, being able to, to provide

these services, to keep animals in the

644

:

homes again the word is responsibly.

645

:

Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

646

:

Yeah.

647

:

I mean, I, I think, you know,

there's little things that plague our

648

:

plague our numbers, like people that

rent, you know, a lot of landlords

649

:

don't allow pets where they're,

you have to pay a pet rent deposit.

650

:

So there are a lot of hindrance, but

the reality is here's the difference.

651

:

Is, you know, back in the 18,

19 hundreds, early 19 hundreds,

652

:

pets were not necessarily seen

seen as part of the family.

653

:

It wasn't the same as it is now.

654

:

And I think we have to really recalibrate

and understand that, you know, pets,

655

:

though they're still considered property

property, they're sentient beings

656

:

and they have become family members.

657

:

And so we have to find ways just

like with the one health model, and

658

:

we talk about that in smart being

like able to show that connection.

659

:

Like let's help everyone together.

660

:

If we can vaccinate a person and a pet

at the same time, we're doing good.

661

:

Like we're making, we're making headway.

662

:

And so I just think it's really

important that we continue to push

663

:

that narrative forward, that I

it's, it's mind boggling to me.

664

:

To see like how popular it's become.

665

:

And if look, I'm not knocking anybody

for feeling good about not euthanizing.

666

:

I want that to be clear again, no one

wants to euthanize, but we have to

667

:

also understand, like we are, we're

a profession that has obligations.

668

:

And so it's important that we

understand sometimes we have

669

:

to make those hard decisions.

670

:

And, you know, it, it's, it, I don't,

I don't know how else to say it.

671

:

It's just, we shouldn't shy away

from it if that is going to be the

672

:

best outcome for the community or

the best outcome for the animal.

673

:

DrG: And we just have to,

again, we have to collaborate.

674

:

We have to work together and we have

to watch what we say about others

675

:

because there are so many groups that

may inadvertently say, well, we are,

676

:

are this kind of shelter, and they

don't understand that then that is

677

:

making other organizations look bad.

678

:

And, you know, they, they all need help.

679

:

And if we're, if we're worrying about

some of these smaller shelters that

680

:

don't have resources, euthanizing

too much, does it make sense to

681

:

decrease the The amount of adopters,

the amount of support that they get.

682

:

Absolutely not, because what are we doing?

683

:

Then we're causing them

to need to euthanize more.

684

:

We need to be able to bring those

organizations to the public and say,

685

:

hey, they're having these issues.

686

:

These are the problems that are having.

687

:

How can we as a community

help this shelter improve?

688

:

You know, we want, we want

higher life release rates.

689

:

We don't want to be

euthanizing a ton of animals.

690

:

So it needs to be everybody's problem.

691

:

Everybody has to come together.

692

:

It can not be just that individual

shelters problem to solve.

693

:

Dan Ettinger: I would completely agree.

694

:

Um, I, I'm curious to

see how things unfold.

695

:

You know, I know that.

696

:

Um, best friends created no kill 2025.

697

:

So I don't know if that means like

they need to be no kill by:

698

:

or they, um, have until the end

of:

699

:

But it's like, I, I feel like

they'll do anything that it

700

:

takes to make the numbers.

701

:

Cause they don't want to have

to be like, uh, we're going

702

:

to now shoot for no kill 2030.

703

:

I just feel like the best thing to

do in my opinion is just drop it.

704

:

Just move on, create a new slogan, like

help people help animals and then create

705

:

programs not only focused on like the

programs are focused on providing access

706

:

to care, but also like encouraging our

next round of veterinarians, our next

707

:

vet techs, you know, making an incentive.

708

:

Like incentivized so we can get

these people in the programs like

709

:

that to me is really important

710

:

DrG: Yeah, that's one of the things

that we are doing We have a mentorship

711

:

program and the whole idea of it is

to bring veterinary students at early

712

:

stages Right first second and third year

students to come in and see the work

713

:

that we're doing so that hopefully we

can get them involved in this community

714

:

service and And them wanting to give

back to the community, you know, kind

715

:

of going back to how veterinarians

used to be, you know, veterinarians

716

:

were highly regarded by the community.

717

:

Um, so we want to bring,

we want to bring that back.

718

:

And I'm not saying bring back when

veterinarians made zero money because

719

:

they didn't charge appropriately

for what they did, but you can, you

720

:

can still make a very decent living.

721

:

And provide affordable, accessible care.

722

:

I mean, I say it because I live it.

723

:

Yeah, it's, it's what, it's what we do and

it's what we're trying to teach students.

724

:

So I guess also in, in that way, if

you're a shelter, if you're a humane

725

:

organization, reach out to the vet

schools, reach out to students, engage

726

:

them, get them in and let them get

their hands dirty so that they see

727

:

how rewarding it can be, and they

can see what opportunities there are.

728

:

Right now,

729

:

you only have like big corporations

reaching out to students telling them

730

:

"hey come work for us, and this is

what you're gonna get" you don't see

731

:

a lot of other organizations doing

that So, you know it it's out there.

732

:

The the opportunities are out there.

733

:

We just need to You know to go get them.

734

:

Dan Ettinger: Yeah, and I think you

know getting people look we all want to

735

:

have some sort of unity and camaraderie

within our our In our lines of work,

736

:

whether it's, um, the work that we do

in animal welfare or whether you work

737

:

for a big team like Costco, like there,

there's going to be some sort of like

738

:

unity and connection amongst that.

739

:

So it feels good to be part

of a no kill community.

740

:

And I, I respect people

that want to have that.

741

:

All I'm saying is you can be part

of this smart community and not

742

:

have to worry or deal with that.

743

:

Oh, I have to, we have to every, every

month, make sure our numbers are at 90.

744

:

Like we just heard a story where a

shelter refused to euthanize four cats

745

:

that were suffering because it would have

threw off their numbers for the month.

746

:

And so they waited for the

following month to do it.

747

:

That we're, we're basically,

that's basically animal cruelty.

748

:

What are we doing?

749

:

Like, what do we can't do that?

750

:

DrG: Yeah, it's sad.

751

:

And it is sad that that happens.

752

:

And it is also sad that.

753

:

Some organizations are not being

transparent and they're not actually

754

:

releasing their kill rates, their kill

numbers, or are making different, how you

755

:

say, um, requirements for what counts as

kill versus no kill, because they need

756

:

to stay within, within those numbers.

757

:

So, uh, and, and again, I think that

the community has a big, a big part in

758

:

it because the community expects these

shelters to be within that percentage.

759

:

So, if If the public understand what

things mean and why things are done, um,

760

:

and start being more supportive, I, I

believe that we can get to, to that no

761

:

kill idea, but in a very responsible way.

762

:

Dan Ettinger: I agree.

763

:

And I think we have to

just change the narrative.

764

:

And not focus on no kill.

765

:

And again, through normal attrition, by

creating those programs, we'll get there.

766

:

I really believe that, but we have

to, we all have to work together and

767

:

focus on the access to care element.

768

:

Uh, and therefore, you know, that's

the, to me, that's the most important,

769

:

important part and the take home that

I have is like, figure out a way.

770

:

That we can promote spay and neuter

in our communities, promote, you know,

771

:

folks that make maybe can't afford

veterinary care and are in the process

772

:

of possibly losing an animal through

an investigation to find ways to get

773

:

them that, um, asset aspect of care.

774

:

DrG: Yeah, absolutely.

775

:

So for anybody out there that is

interested in learning more about

776

:

smart or becoming part of the

smart movement, what can they do?

777

:

Dan Ettinger: So probably

the biggest thing is to join.

778

:

The Facebook group, the smart shelter,

Facebook group, uh, reach out to me

779

:

through Daniel at keep it humane.

780

:

And if you want more information,

but the, at the end of the day,

781

:

all people really have to do is

just start using the terminology.

782

:

Um, they can, I can send

them a logo if they want it.

783

:

If they want to print out the smart

logo and use it at their shelter,

784

:

they're more than welcome to, um, you

know, it's, I have a different format.

785

:

So if they need it for certain

marketing things, uh, I could send it.

786

:

There's like, there's no cost.

787

:

We're not asking for anybody

to like pay anything.

788

:

We just want people to know that

they're supported and they don't

789

:

need arbitrary numbers to make them

feel like they're doing a good job.

790

:

DrG: And that's what I like about it.

791

:

It's, you know, it's, it's completely for.

792

:

For helping, right?

793

:

It's not for helping ourselves

is for helping others.

794

:

Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

795

:

DrG: Awesome.

796

:

Well, well, thank you so much for

spending this time and for sharing

797

:

information and for getting me involved

in the SMART movement, because it's been

798

:

a fun ride and I'm looking forward to

where it's going to take us from here.

799

:

Dan Ettinger: You know, it's, uh,

it's not just about me being smart.

800

:

It's about surrounding

myself with smart people.

801

:

So I appreciate all your help.

802

:

It helps a lot.

803

:

DrG: Fantastic.

804

:

Well, everybody that's out

there, thank you for listening

805

:

and thank you for caring.

806

:

Dan Ettinger: Keep it humane!

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