Dan Ettinger, host of The Animal Control Report, joins Dr. G to discuss SMART animal shelters and its goal to Save More Animals Responsibly Together.

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Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today's guest is a repeat

offender, Dan Ettinger, host

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of the Animal Control Report.

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Thanks for being here.

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Dan Ettinger: Wow, I don't know if

that's a good title or a bad title,

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but I, I love being here and I

appreciate, uh, just everything you're

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doing on this show and I'm glad we

can, we can set up times to chat.

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So this is great.

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DrG: Thanks.

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So for anybody that has not listened to

any of these episodes or doesn't follow

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your podcast, you want to give a quick.

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What do you do and who you are?

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Dan Ettinger: Yeah.

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So I guess we'll start with, I am, it's,

it feels so weird saying this, but I

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was like, I have to figure out a way

to properly account for what I do with

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the side company that I have,

which is keep it humane.

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You could find that at keep it humane.

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com.

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And I guess I'm the CEO and

president of said company.

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And really it's focused on a

couple of different things.

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Obviously the podcast that we have.

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Which is the animal control report,

the podcast network that we have, which

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is the keep it humane podcast network,

which includes the animal welfare

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junction and a few other podcasts.

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Um, so, and the other part of that is

like doing consulting and teaching.

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Um, I like to do that stuff on the side.

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And, and then other piece under that

is the smart shelter concept that

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you and I actually came up with.

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DrG: And we're going to be talking a

little bit about that, um, just because,

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well, actually, do you want to let our

listeners know about this case that

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we were discussing a little bit ago?

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Dan Ettinger: So.

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I did a quick Google search

to like determine what's out

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there in the news these days.

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And I found this article about

Greenville County's animal shelter.

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And this is from the post

and courier in Greenville.

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So the Greenville County animal

shelter was once no kill.

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A surge of dogs has changed that.

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And so the article really, and I'm not

going to read it word for word just

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because it's a fairly Fairly long article,

but I'll, I'll jump in really quick.

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So it gives some backstory, uh,

Greenville each morning staff at

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Greenville County's animal shelter start

the day with all their kennels full,

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more strays arrive as the day passes

and an increasingly large numbers.

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Let me try that again.

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And in increasingly larger numbers.

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Over the years, Shelley Simmons has seen

both worse and better, only to lose ground

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in the shelter effort to keep the no

kill status it worked hard to achieve.

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When she began as the director

in Greenville County Animal Care

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in 2007, the shelter took in more

than 20, 000 animals by year.

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By 2019, that number was below 9, 000.

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The shelter was making strides.

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Programs like spaying and neutering

intended to reduce the number of

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animals coming into the shelter.

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The shelter was making strides.

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Programs like spaying and neutering

intended to reduce the number of animals

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coming into the shelter were working.

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She said in an interview with the Post

and Courier, as a result, the number

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of animals being euthanized declined

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To about 9 percent in 2019 below

the 10 percent qualified the shelter

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for the no kill status, a goal that

Simmons had long worked towards.

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And then she talks about the pandemic

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And now their numbers

not being below the 10%.

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And so that's kind of the,

the gist of the article, which

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we're hearing more and more.

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And, I actually have some personal

experience with Greenville County and I'm

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grateful to say I was there earlier this

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and consulting and talk to them about just

the different options of, of, I would say

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like using terms like no kill sounds great

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on the outside and save them all

sounds great from like a marketing

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standpoint, but is that truly

what represents our shelters?

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And so we did a session on smart,

I did a session on smart there

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and it was received fairly well.

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And you know, it just goes back

to this arbitrary goal and number.

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I don't know why it's become so

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popular or such a trend in our industry.

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And it's led us to things of like,

staff, I think it creates an issue with

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staff because staff feels overwhelmed,

uh, trying to get numbers down.

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And the reality is no one wants to

euthanize, but we have to respect

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and understand the fact of like,

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These situations are fluid.

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Every city, every County, every

animal shelter is different.

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And so, you know, they may have

been able to achieve that status

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for several years, but maybe there's

different growth in their community.

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Uh, people are moving in or more

people got animals during the pandemic.

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And now they're starting to

see some of those animals that

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didn't get spayed and neutered.

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And let me tell you, I'm actually

friends with, uh, they're one

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of their veterinarians there.

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And, uh, they, they have a facility

at the shelter that is dedicated to

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spaying and neutering pets in their

community and it's free to people

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that are on government assistance.

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And I got to sit there and kind

of watch that process for a day.

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And it's amazing.

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I mean, they do close to 10, 000 spay and

neuters a year and it's almost still not

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enough as we can see with their numbers.

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Now, the other part is They're a big

county, and maybe some of those animals,

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unbeknownst to them, come in from other

counties as well, so it's very possible

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that some of the animals that they're

seeing in their county maybe not,

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are maybe not specific to Greenville.

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DrG: So I have to say, you know,

when I was growing up, I never

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went to the Humane Society.

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And the reason I didn't go to

the Humane Society is because it

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was, a very high kill facility.

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And to me growing up, you know back then I

wanted to be a veterinarian I really liked

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animals or whatever and I did not want

to go to a place That I felt guilty that

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I was going to walk in and if I picked

one animal I was saving that one, but I

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was leaving the rest of them just to die.

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Right.

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So that was my perception as, as I was

growing up, but then I grew up and then

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I realized that not every shelter is

like that, that that's not what happens.

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And that sometimes it's a necessary evil.

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Right.

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Um, so my, my perception has changed.

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I have evolved.

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Um, so One of the, one of the things

I guess that I do want to talk about

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is there, there has been a shift,

you know, I think that way back when

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there was more killing happening in

shelters, and, and shelters and animal

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control facilities and dog pounds

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did not seem to be looking

for ways to fix the problem.

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They just had a job to pick them

up, bring them in, and then if they

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couldn't come out, euthanize them.

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So how about we talk a little bit

about the history of how, Oh, kind of

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like the kill movement started because

it, it started long, long time ago.

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Dan Ettinger: I'm glad you asked

because one of my favorite articles

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and not favorite in the aspects

of like, I really think there's

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articles like my fit, like, right.

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It's my favorite from understanding the

history of, of our profession, meaning

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like the animal control officers and such.

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And so this blog called sniffing the

past, uh, it was actually written

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by Chris Pearson and he is a senior

lecturer of about 20th century history.

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And what he did is he went

back and found something called

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the 1811 law concerning dogs.

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And this law concerning dogs was very

specific to the public safety aspect

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and how, you know, rabies was a concern.

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Uh, aggression was a concern because

back in the day, these dogs just lived

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outside and would just roam the streets.

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And so they might be in packs, uh,

they might have behavioral problems.

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And so what he found is they

basically put a bounty on dogs.

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And what it says is that, you know, there

was a, first off there was a tax, a 3

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tax to dog owners, and then the bounty.

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or the law allowed you to

basically kill any dog found

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outside the lamppost district of

the New York metropolitan area.

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And then they would bring these

bodies in and collect a bounty.

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Um, and they would kill

them very barbarically.

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And I was, there's a few books

that I've read about it as well.

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Um, and when you, when you think about

like some of the acts that Like a

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person would literally bludgeon dogs

to death, uh, horribly, or if they

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made it at the shelter and they weren't

claimed within like 24 hours, they

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would get loaded into iron cages and

then just dunked in the East river,

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where they would be held underwater

for approximately seven minutes.

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And in any case, though, it

sounds very almost impossible.

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Any case where a dog came up alive, it

would then get bludgeoned, uh, to death.

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So that's like barbarism.

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If that's a word, we do that a lot

on our podcast, we just make up

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words, but that's so barbaric in the

aspects of like, When these no kill

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phrases come out, it's like, no shit.

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We're no one's killing.

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Like we're not killing.

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We're euthanizing, which

is ending suffering.

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Like there's a difference between

killing, which is like this barbaric

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bludgeoning murdering of an animal

to like humanely euthanizing an

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animal with care and compassion.

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And there's a huge difference there.

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Um, and it's just, it's, as you can tell,

I get frustrated just talking about it.

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DrG: And, and again, like there is

a difference between that and kind

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of like the needing to, to euthanize

and the, and the movement at the

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very beginning seemed to be going

in a really good direction, right?

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With the, with the, um,

A-S-P-C-A and, Caroline Earl

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Dan Ettinger: White.

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Yes.

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And then George Thorndyke, angel, all

those folks were very, um, very like,

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active in just raising awareness, uh, RA,

ra raising, raising, raising awareness

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in, um, in those, in that moment.

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So, yeah, it was.

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DrG: Yeah, so it was kind of nice

seeing that, you know, these people

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became involved and they saw that the

killing of dogs, um, was just useless.

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It was barbaric.

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And then they wanted to change things

into where animals would have a

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place as a shelter, as a safe haven

that they could be brought into.

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And then You know, be adopted out.

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And then in the case that they did

have to be euthanized for whatever

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reason, then it would be done humanely.

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Dan Ettinger: Yeah.

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DrG: So then we go from there to then

the idea of no, not killing anything.

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And I, and I, what I really dislike

about the term no kill is the word

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kill, because I think that is an

inflammatory word, it's, it's a word

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used to create a reaction, right?

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We are saying that we're killing animals.

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And I think that that's used a

little bit on purpose just to,

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just to get the public worked up.

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Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

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I think it's, I mean, it's genius.

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I, in the aspects of like marketing,

we are in a time and age where it's

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all about catching the attention of

people to fundraise, to ensure that

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there are funds to Do some of the great

projects that some of these organizations

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do, but it's a misleading term.

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And it, to me, takes us away from

the true, um, the true issue at hand.

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DrG: And terms that are important.

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And I think that, I mean, there's a

lot of misuse of terms or sometimes

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people don't understand definition.

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So like when I was, Uh, looking into

smart, one of the things that I looked

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up was kind of like what is the purpose

of a humane society, the purpose of

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an animal shelter, the purpose of,

uh, uh, I say animal control and

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the terms are misused often, right?

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Because humane society tends to be,

uh, uh, an organization that promotes

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humane ideals and treatment of animals.

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So not necessarily an animal shelter, but

there are plenty of animal shelters that

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use the word humane society within their

name, where, you know, the animal shelters

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is going to be more the establishment

that houses animals temporarily,

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and then they have to make the decision

to euthanize homeless animals, uh,

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if they're unsuitable for adoption.

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And then when we get into animal control,

You can talk about this better than I

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can, because I'm not an animal control

officer that the, the purpose of an

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animal control officer is public safety.

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Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

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DrG: So when, you know, when, when

some of these organizations are making

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decisions on not euthanizing, especially

my, my pet peeve is aggressive animals.

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You know, I, I feel bad for animals

that, that are sick, that are

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injured and that kind of stuff.

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But, When we are making decisions with

animals that are extremely aggressive,

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especially when they have a long bite

history or severe bite history, then

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we are forgetting the fact that we have

to protect other animals and the public

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from aggressive or dangerous animals.

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Dan Ettinger: And, and that's like

the, like, that's, that's what blows me

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away is like, that was the foundation.

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Of all of this and it doesn't mean that

we can't change I'm totally open to change

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but like the all the reason that we're

here is public safety and from that birth

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The animal shelter or the humane societies

or whatever title we want to use but it

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was it was created and born because of

the the need for These, these pets that

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were causing an issue in the community.

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And then some of the innocent ones ended

up as strays in our animal shelters.

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And, you know, back then we didn't

have, there was probably more purebreds.

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And so some of the purebreds would

be adopted out and therefore you

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have the animal shelter aspect.

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DrG: Yeah.

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So, I mean, we went from

indiscriminate killing to a humane

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approach to euthanasia, to now.

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Trying to to do a complete elimination

of euthanasia from shelter.

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Dan Ettinger: Mm hmm

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DrG: Some of the issues that I personally

have is the the requirements and the

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Say the false expectations that it

leads As you as you mentioned earlier,

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you know, we're talking about this 10

percent well a 10 percent may be very

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attainable to humane organizations that

are limited intake, humane organizations

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that are in affluent areas, but me

personally, I travel to a lot of rural

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areas here in Ohio with the Rascal Unit.

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So we're going to a lot of places that

lack veterinary care that lack resources.

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So humane organizations in

those areas, it's impossible to

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hold them to the same standard.

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As other organizations, when,

when they just literally lack the

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resources, they lack the community

to be able to adopt these animals.

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They lack the resources to again, treat

animals with mental or physical illness.

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So we are somewhat setting

them off for failure.

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And then the public sees that and they,

you know, same as when I was little,

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they're going to look at them and be like,

well, I don't want to deal with this place

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because they're just killing everything.

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I want to go somewhere where

they're not killing anything.

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And in the end, it hurts the animals.

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Dan Ettinger: And that's what people

don't understand is like, we can sit here

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and have what we would consider an open

admission animal shelter that can't refuse

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animals coming in because they're, um, You

know, whether it's bound legally through

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their state laws where it's, you know,

an open admission shelter, it may be, um,

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it may be through like their department

of agriculture or things of that nature.

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And then it's like, look, like you

can't turn anything away, but these,

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these open or limited admission

shelters that operate as a nonprofit,

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or somehow we're able to get the, their

county to adopt a fact that, no pun

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intended, that they can be limited with

their admission, it's all it's doing.

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It's it's, it's like, uh, uh, what are

they like robbing Peter to pay Paul?

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Is a saying that you might hear or like

chopping a head off of a two headed

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snake or, you know, there's just like,

it's probably not the greatest analogy

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to use on an animal welfare pod.

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But my point is like, we're

not impacting the community the

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right way by closing our doors.

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And that was something we just talked

about on our latest episode on our podcast

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was, was that just that thing right there?

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It's like, we have to be able to

provide the resources necessary in

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our communities to see a difference.

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And if we don't, then this problem

is going to exist forever, forever.

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We can be creative and try to like foster,

what is it, foster, find her to foster,

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like, that'll help a little bit, sure, um,

or in ramping up our RTOs, that'll help

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a little bit, but at the end of the day,

if people's animals are still reproducing

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as the way that they've been for the

last hundred years and more, we're just

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going to end up in the same place that

we are today, if not in a worse place.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And, and what happens is.

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You know, it's kind of like a no win

situation for people that find themselves

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in the position of needing to surrender

an animal or euthanize an animal, right?

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Because we see them asking for

help and saying, Hey, I found this

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dog, found this dog on the street.

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I found this cat or my cat had a litter.

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My dog had a litter.

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I can't have it.

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So I need a place to be

able to take them to.

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They're given no resource.

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They're given no ability to surrender

that animal, to put him in a safe space.

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And they're told it's your responsibility.

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So unfortunately, there's a lot

of crazy people in this world.

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And once you make it their responsibility

and you take away all their options,

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then horrible things happen, right?

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Um, there was a case from

Kingston, Pennsylvania.

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Uh, it says a man testified that

he has strangled his ailing dog to

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death as a last resort after seeking

help from several animal hospitals.

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which, uh, reportedly required

cash up front to see the

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dog, and an animal shelter.

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He claimed that the dog had stopped eating

and was vomiting and experiencing severe

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diarrhea after eating dirty diapers.

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The dog reportedly vomited in a turn

away facility's lobby and workers

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there told the man to take the dog

to a veterinary hospital, which he

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said he had no money to pay for.

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They allegedly threatened to

call the police if he didn't

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take the dog and leave.

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So is it okay that this

man strangled his dog?

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Absolutely not.

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Like, I am not telling people go do that.

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But you take some, you know, this is

somebody that is seeing his dog in

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pain, he's seeing his dog sick, he

he's trying to make his dog not suffer.

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And he has no resources available.

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And this is what he was pushed to do.

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You know, it is not okay.

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Dan Ettinger: It's not.

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And I can share just a brief story of

something in a sense, somewhat kind

323

of similar, I guess you could say.

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So the last shelter I worked at,

we operated in a County, but in our

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County, we had, um, another, we had a

nonprofit that also provided services.

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And we, for whatever reason, we hadn't

figured out how to do this the right way.

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But if someone found an animal in the

nonprofits jurisdiction and brought it

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to our shelter, we would always ask,

Hey, can you bring it 15, 20 minutes

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down the road to the appropriate shelter?

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That way, you know, everything is just

everything is done the correct way.

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We're able to get it, you know,

the fees correctly if there's

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reclaimed fees or if there's prior

history, those types of things.

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So there were, there was that type of

stuff going on and like we had a cut.

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And so oftentimes when I was working at

that shelter, we would have a customer

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customers come in and they'd get so angry

that we wouldn't just accept the dog.

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And I get it.

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They're at an animal shelter.

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They just found a stray.

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They're trying to do the right thing.

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And then they're told no.

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But recently at a case

where there was a person.

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And the dog was very active on the

leash, which was, it wasn't even a leash.

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It was like a ratchet strap

that you use to tie down stuff

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in the back of your truck.

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And I, he was being kind

of rude to our, our team.

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And so they asked me to

come up and talk to him.

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And so I went and talked to him.

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And I was just trying to deescalate,

have a good conversation with him.

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And the dog was rowdy

going back and forth.

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And I was just like, Hey, you

know, I'm just trying to explain

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like where we're coming from.

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If you're able to do this for us, great.

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If not totally understandable, we'll

take the animal and then we'll call

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that agency to come pick it up.

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And this person had none of it and just

let the dog go right in our parking lot.

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It took off towards our, all of our

kennels are outdoor kennels here.

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So it, uh, took, took off after,

you know, The noise that it heard.

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And then I went and got the dog, but

this person was so unreasonable, but

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I could imagine that same energy.

360

if it was an animal you're

trying to relinquish because you

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can't take care of it anymore.

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Like, I could see why people, not that

I would, not that I condone it, but I

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could see why people would act that way.

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DrG: Yeah, especially people, like if we

talk about people with like mental health

365

disease or mental health conditions or

again, I mean, they don't, they don't

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have the funds, they don't have the

resources and dumping animals at the door

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of shelters is happening more is Somebody

finds a dog and then they're told, just,

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just release it where you found it.

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It'll find its way home.

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No, that's, that's not how that works.

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Right.

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And we, we certainly don't want to end

up with street dogs like other countries

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do where they have higher incidence

of rabies, higher incidence of bites.

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You know, stray dogs and stray cats

are completely different things.

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Cats like hide, they run away.

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Hey, they do build their

own colonies or whatever.

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You don't really hear about cats,

packs of cats coming down the down

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the street and attacking a person.

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But in, in other places you do

hear that with packs of dogs.

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Dan Ettinger: And, and that's, that's,

that's where I get kind of confused

381

about like where, where we want to

go and where our focus should be.

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Because I think like we should be unified.

383

There should be kind of some harmony,

if you will, throughout our industry.

384

And it doesn't feel that way.

385

It feels like it's very.

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siloed and isolated from each other.

387

And you can't, it's almost like

you can't have a differing opinion.

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So like where I stand, I believe

professionally and personally.

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If we want to achieve a no kill status,

if we want to not have to euthanize

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anything, but 10 percent for health

health concerns and behavior concerns,

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then we have to put all our time,

focus and energy on creating resources

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and access to care for our community.

393

If we did that, then through attrition,

we're going to get to no kill.

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Like that is practical as practical

can be, but having that opinion seems.

395

That it creates this like negative space

with me and, and, and organizations

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that their whole brand are, is no kill.

397

And I, I just, I don't understand that.

398

I wish I've asked them to like, let's do

a panel discussion at their conference.

399

Like, let's open this up.

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And anything that jeopardizes

the integrity of your

401

fundraising is scary, truthfully.

402

And I think that, you know, and I know

saying this is probably no surprise to

403

anybody, but it's like, we all know that

those are brilliant marketing terms and

404

it, it, it jeopardizes that integrity

when people understand no kill is this

405

nice idea, but it never, it will never

exist unless we focus our time, effort,

406

and resources on creating access to care.

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DrG: So speaking of marketing

and how words matter, the

408

smart shelter came about.

409

So yeah.

410

Right.

411

So how about.

412

You, you tell our listeners

how you started with the whole

413

idea for smart sheltering.

414

Dan Ettinger: Well, and thank you

for being so humble about that.

415

I mean, you had a very

big part in this too.

416

Um, I will say it kind of came about

417

a lot of different ways for me.

418

And so I was a patrol patrol field

services or animal control officer,

419

however you would like to define

it, um, for several, several years.

420

And the common thing that I would hear

from people, whether it was a golden

421

retriever puppy or an American bulldog or

a French bulldog, um, you're not going to

422

take it back to the shelter and kill it.

423

Are you, are you going to kill it?

424

Are you a no kill shelter?

425

Are you going to kill it?

426

So there was one instance

specifically that really made

427

my, made me lose faith in people.

428

Dr.

429

G.

430

It's just like, we can't be

that ignorant as a community.

431

So I got called to a school.

432

It was a grade school, middle

school, I guess, actually.

433

And anytime I would go pick up a

stray, I intentionally would bring

434

my microchip scanner because I wanted

to show people how that worked and

435

how we were focused on the RTO.

436

How could RTO, meaning return to owner

for people that aren't in the industry.

437

Um, how could we get, The dog back

to the owner as quickly as possible.

438

Cause if we don't bring it into the

shelter, it's just better for everyone.

439

It's better for the pet.

440

It's better for the person.

441

And it's better for our staff.

442

And I'm walking into this

school, got microchip scanner

443

in hand and I'm just do to do.

444

And I see that it's a French bulldog.

445

So I'm super excited.

446

And I'm like, it's a high probability

that this dog has a microchip.

447

It really is.

448

So I get in there and there's

two, two teachers there.

449

And the first thing out of

one of the teacher's mouth is

450

Are you going to kill it?

451

DrG: Are you going to kill it?

452

Dan Ettinger: That was the

first thing out of her mouth.

453

I literally dropped the microchip

scanner, broke the screen, because

454

all the screens break every time.

455

Don't tell my old boss this.

456

Sorry, old boss.

457

Um, I was just like, are you,

what are you talking about?

458

I was like, you're an educator.

459

You're, and I, I'll be honest, I was

a little frustrated at this point.

460

I mean, I clearly dropped

the microchip scanner.

461

I was just like, what are we doing here?

462

And so I tried to have a car, like

22 hindsight being 20, 20, I should

463

have had a different conversation.

464

I should have not dropped the scanner.

465

Cause that was dramatic.

466

I did it.

467

And then I tried having a conversation and

she was just completely like turned off to

468

the idea of just have like turned off to

the idea that any other thing could exist.

469

And I was like, look, first

off, this is a French bulldog.

470

It probably has a microchip.

471

Our goal is not to euthanize.

472

This is not how you see us in the

movies that were some like unempathetic,

473

untrained, unhealthy dog catcher.

474

Like we have compassion, we care, we

want to do what's best for the people.

475

We want to do what's best for the animals.

476

And so she like stormed out.

477

This lady was hot.

478

I don't know why she was so mad,

but then her friend or the other

479

teacher was actually super reasonable.

480

And I was like, if you

could like, here's my card.

481

If that person ever wants to have

like a conversation, um, I'd be

482

happy to, like, I apologize for me

being dramatic, but I was upset.

483

And, um, so that got me thinking.

484

And then Colorado, I was there for a

long time and they do some great stuff.

485

I feel like Colorado is one of the,

and I know they are based on the ALDF

486

for those that don't know what that is.

487

That's the animal legal

defense fund, uh, the ALDF.

488

org.

489

They do a yearly power ranking,

almost of, of best States versus

490

worst States in animal welfare.

491

And Colorado is always in the top 10.

492

They do some great stuff.

493

There's some great people in Colorado.

494

I'm very, um, proud to say that I, that's

where I got my start in animal welfare.

495

It has absolutely shaped me in many

ways, and so I'm grateful for that.

496

They came up with this term, a

group of some of the, I would say,

497

stakeholders in the state that really

are immersed, immersed in animal welfare.

498

Um, we're, they were strategic because

in 20, I'm going to get the dates wrong.

499

2018 somewhere in there, uh, the

County of Pueblo, which is South of

500

Denver at about two hours created,

and they were a no kill state.

501

And so the nonprofit that had the

contract there lost their contract,

502

and some group that was not

503

skilled or experienced enough came

in and ran the county shelter and it

504

it was horrible The state had to come

in you can google it the state had to

505

come in And actually do some research,

not research, excuse me, do some, um,

506

like heavy ticketing and impounding.

507

And they actually like, they had

to shut them down and then agency

508

that operated it before it came

back and secured the contract.

509

And, uh, it was a mess, but I think

part of that no kill County led to

510

these, these stakeholders in Colorado

saying we need to come up with

511

something clever and they came up

with socially conscious sheltering.

512

Great concept, horrible

name, great concept.

513

Horrible name.

514

And so I was around that at the time.

515

And I think the, you know, if I'm

not involved in something, um, I

516

tend to like, if I, if I really like

think that it's something that I want

517

to have some input on, you know, I

tend to like create other avenues.

518

And so the idea came to birth,

uh, smart, which thanks to Dr.

519

G we, we are, we were able

to really get our acronym.

520

Um, perfect.

521

I don't know how else to say it.

522

And so.

523

SMART stands for Saving More

Animals Responsibly Together.

524

And so the whole ethos of SMART is to lose

any arbitrary number that we have to hit.

525

Um, it creates teamwork and collaboration

throughout animal shelters, and

526

promotes not only like a great phrase.

527

Hey, are you a no kill shelter?

528

No, we're actually a smart shelter.

529

And let me tell you what that means.

530

So it's a great comeback to

this, uh, no kill terminology.

531

And kind of a very fun fact for me

because I'm somewhat of a historian

532

when it comes to animal welfare is,

533

there's still a shelter today in

Denver called the Dumb Friends League.

534

Uh, there's an organization in, in the,

in Europe called our Dumb, uh, it's also

535

called the Dumb Friends, it might also

be called the Dumb Friends League, but

536

it was for, they were for, um, horses.

537

Uh, so two of those exist,

which is really cool.

538

But what people didn't

understand is in our current day.

539

Um, what they don't understand is

540

for those that couldn't speak.

541

And so there's publications called, um,

our dumb animals, which was a basically

542

a magazine put out by George Thorndike

angel, um, where they covered just

543

really the humane education aspect of

what we were doing in animal welfare.

544

And so it's neat to know that

we've come from dumb being a very

545

prominent terminology to this concept.

546

Or the birth of SMART, um,

to represent what we should

547

be doing in animal shelters.

548

DrG: What I like about the acronym, and

I broke it down, I gave a presentation

549

a little bit ago, and I said, you know,

the saving more animals because we're

550

replacing arbitrary numbers, right?

551

So I explained it to

the, to the participants.

552

We are saving more animals.

553

So if you're in a rural shelter, and you

are at a 40 percent life release rate, and

554

you're able to make changes that increase

you to 45, that's a 5 percent improvement.

555

So we're not comparing you to

anybody else, but yourself.

556

I like to tell people,

worry about yourself.

557

Right.

558

So, yes, we want to see what

other, what other people are

559

doing so that we can get better.

560

But it's about what are

you doing to get better?

561

I like the term responsibly because

we're recognizing that it's about

562

the safety and, and wellbeing of both

the animals and of the community.

563

And together, because

it's everybody, right?

564

All stakeholders, not just the shelters.

565

This is about the veterinarians.

566

This is about the community.

567

This is about everyone that is involved.

568

So SMART, let me say this, the SMART

acronym just literally embodies everything

569

that we should be aiming to in, you

know, in the fight to help animals.

570

I

571

Dan Ettinger: couldn't agree more and

You know, we created a private animal

572

or smart shelter group on Facebook where

there's quite a few people already in it.

573

And you know, I'll be honest,

my bandwidth is so thin that

574

I really wish I could do more.

575

And this is basically me putting

out the bat signal, by the way,

576

speaking of bat signals, dude, do

you know there's a bumblebee bat?

577

It's literally the size of a bumblebee.

578

Well, anyway, there's a thing called the

bumblebee bat and I'm really impressed

579

by it, but putting out the bat signal,

if anyone is listening and wants to

580

take on some more responsibility as

like a volunteer role, please hit

581

me up, man, Daniel@keepithumane.com

or just go to keepithumane.com.

582

Um, I would love the help cause

we're really, we, we need to

583

do is push this out there.

584

And take some of that pressure

off of shelters that feel

585

like they have to save 90%.

586

Get at it, like stop.

587

We don't, what we have to do is treat

animals with humane care treatment.

588

Keep a public safety, um,

aspect of our community.

589

But all this other shit, please, like,

we don't need to just hit this 90%.

590

That's, that, to me, that doesn't

show me that you're successful.

591

What shows me that you're successful

is you have active programs in your

592

community trying to help people help

animals, that you're creating things

593

like low cost vaccine clinics, low cost

spay and neuter clinics, doing things

594

like the rascal unit does with for you,

like that is how you judge success, not

595

off of a 90 percent live release rate.

596

So you got a plaque.

597

Whoop tee doo!

598

What are you gonna do?

599

Hang it up in your office and be

proud that you didn't put down an

600

animal that's been suffering and

living in a shelter for 600 days.

601

We taught, I know I get a

little amped up on this.

602

We talk about the five freedoms and

it got adopted, no pun intended into

603

the animal shelter world, but it

wasn't, it wasn't created for that.

604

It was created for livestock

in the UK, but it sounds cool.

605

It sounds nice.

606

Well, one of those five freedoms is

freedom to express normal behaviors.

607

So if we're adopting this idea of five

freedoms and we have, we're warehousing

608

animals in kennels, is it allowed to,

to have normal behavior because of that?

609

Absolutely not.

610

DrG: Yeah.

611

And from, from myself, from a forensic

veterinary forensic side, you know, we

612

deal with cases of neglect and cruelty.

613

And I, and I think that there are

some cases of neglect that are

614

just because people are assholes.

615

But then there are cases of neglect that

it's because people do not have resources,

616

they do not have access to care.

617

So, how, how great would it be to help

not only improve the quality of life of

618

animals of owned animals by providing

affordable and accessible care and

619

then also decreasing the number of

animals that are suffering because

620

the owners don't have these resources?

621

And to all the people that say

well if you can't afford an animal

622

don't have it get out of here

because that doesn't exist, right?

623

If we were to say that I heard the

other day on on another podcast

624

about how 60 percent of Americans

live paycheck to paycheck.

625

So basically, are you telling

me that 60 percent of Americans

626

should not own a dog and a cat?

627

Because if that what we're saying,

we're saying that we can adopt

628

our way out of this problem.

629

Well, we can adopt our way out of this

problem with 40 percent of the population.

630

Are we going to be putting like 30

dogs and 50 cats inside of every

631

home in the every wealthy home

632

in the United States?

633

Like that's not going to happen.

634

So, you know, we, we talk about

decreasing shelter intake.

635

Well, let's decrease it responsibly.

636

Let's find out what are the reasons

why some of these individuals are

637

surrendering their animals and see

if there is a way that we can help

638

keep that animal in their home.

639

Because the reality is that

there are quite a few people that

640

surrender animals because they're

looking for a better opportunity,

641

better life or something for them.

642

And they don't, if they have it their

way, they would keep that dog or cat.

643

So, you know, being able to, to provide

these services, to keep animals in the

644

homes again the word is responsibly.

645

Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

646

Yeah.

647

I mean, I, I think, you know,

there's little things that plague our

648

plague our numbers, like people that

rent, you know, a lot of landlords

649

don't allow pets where they're,

you have to pay a pet rent deposit.

650

So there are a lot of hindrance, but

the reality is here's the difference.

651

Is, you know, back in the 18,

19 hundreds, early 19 hundreds,

652

pets were not necessarily seen

seen as part of the family.

653

It wasn't the same as it is now.

654

And I think we have to really recalibrate

and understand that, you know, pets,

655

though they're still considered property

property, they're sentient beings

656

and they have become family members.

657

And so we have to find ways just

like with the one health model, and

658

we talk about that in smart being

like able to show that connection.

659

Like let's help everyone together.

660

If we can vaccinate a person and a pet

at the same time, we're doing good.

661

Like we're making, we're making headway.

662

And so I just think it's really

important that we continue to push

663

that narrative forward, that I

it's, it's mind boggling to me.

664

To see like how popular it's become.

665

And if look, I'm not knocking anybody

for feeling good about not euthanizing.

666

I want that to be clear again, no one

wants to euthanize, but we have to

667

also understand, like we are, we're

a profession that has obligations.

668

And so it's important that we

understand sometimes we have

669

to make those hard decisions.

670

And, you know, it, it's, it, I don't,

I don't know how else to say it.

671

It's just, we shouldn't shy away

from it if that is going to be the

672

best outcome for the community or

the best outcome for the animal.

673

DrG: And we just have to,

again, we have to collaborate.

674

We have to work together and we have

to watch what we say about others

675

because there are so many groups that

may inadvertently say, well, we are,

676

are this kind of shelter, and they

don't understand that then that is

677

making other organizations look bad.

678

And, you know, they, they all need help.

679

And if we're, if we're worrying about

some of these smaller shelters that

680

don't have resources, euthanizing

too much, does it make sense to

681

decrease the The amount of adopters,

the amount of support that they get.

682

Absolutely not, because what are we doing?

683

Then we're causing them

to need to euthanize more.

684

We need to be able to bring those

organizations to the public and say,

685

hey, they're having these issues.

686

These are the problems that are having.

687

How can we as a community

help this shelter improve?

688

You know, we want, we want

higher life release rates.

689

We don't want to be

euthanizing a ton of animals.

690

So it needs to be everybody's problem.

691

Everybody has to come together.

692

It can not be just that individual

shelters problem to solve.

693

Dan Ettinger: I would completely agree.

694

Um, I, I'm curious to

see how things unfold.

695

You know, I know that.

696

Um, best friends created no kill 2025.

697

So I don't know if that means like

698

or they, um, have until the end

699

But it's like, I, I feel like

they'll do anything that it

700

takes to make the numbers.

701

Cause they don't want to have

to be like, uh, we're going

702

to now shoot for no kill 2030.

703

I just feel like the best thing to

do in my opinion is just drop it.

704

Just move on, create a new slogan, like

help people help animals and then create

705

programs not only focused on like the

programs are focused on providing access

706

to care, but also like encouraging our

next round of veterinarians, our next

707

vet techs, you know, making an incentive.

708

Like incentivized so we can get

these people in the programs like

709

that to me is really important

710

DrG: Yeah, that's one of the things

that we are doing We have a mentorship

711

program and the whole idea of it is

to bring veterinary students at early

712

stages Right first second and third year

students to come in and see the work

713

that we're doing so that hopefully we

can get them involved in this community

714

service and And them wanting to give

back to the community, you know, kind

715

of going back to how veterinarians

used to be, you know, veterinarians

716

were highly regarded by the community.

717

Um, so we want to bring,

we want to bring that back.

718

And I'm not saying bring back when

veterinarians made zero money because

719

they didn't charge appropriately

for what they did, but you can, you

720

can still make a very decent living.

721

And provide affordable, accessible care.

722

I mean, I say it because I live it.

723

Yeah, it's, it's what, it's what we do and

it's what we're trying to teach students.

724

So I guess also in, in that way, if

you're a shelter, if you're a humane

725

organization, reach out to the vet

schools, reach out to students, engage

726

them, get them in and let them get

their hands dirty so that they see

727

how rewarding it can be, and they

can see what opportunities there are.

728

Right now,

729

you only have like big corporations

reaching out to students telling them

730

"hey come work for us, and this is

what you're gonna get" you don't see

731

a lot of other organizations doing

that So, you know it it's out there.

732

The the opportunities are out there.

733

We just need to You know to go get them.

734

Dan Ettinger: Yeah, and I think you

know getting people look we all want to

735

have some sort of unity and camaraderie

within our our In our lines of work,

736

whether it's, um, the work that we do

in animal welfare or whether you work

737

for a big team like Costco, like there,

there's going to be some sort of like

738

unity and connection amongst that.

739

So it feels good to be part

of a no kill community.

740

And I, I respect people

that want to have that.

741

All I'm saying is you can be part

of this smart community and not

742

have to worry or deal with that.

743

Oh, I have to, we have to every, every

month, make sure our numbers are at 90.

744

Like we just heard a story where a

shelter refused to euthanize four cats

745

that were suffering because it would have

threw off their numbers for the month.

746

And so they waited for the

following month to do it.

747

That we're, we're basically,

that's basically animal cruelty.

748

What are we doing?

749

Like, what do we can't do that?

750

DrG: Yeah, it's sad.

751

And it is sad that that happens.

752

And it is also sad that.

753

Some organizations are not being

transparent and they're not actually

754

releasing their kill rates, their kill

numbers, or are making different, how you

755

say, um, requirements for what counts as

kill versus no kill, because they need

756

to stay within, within those numbers.

757

So, uh, and, and again, I think that

the community has a big, a big part in

758

it because the community expects these

shelters to be within that percentage.

759

So, if If the public understand what

things mean and why things are done, um,

760

and start being more supportive, I, I

believe that we can get to, to that no

761

kill idea, but in a very responsible way.

762

Dan Ettinger: I agree.

763

And I think we have to

just change the narrative.

764

And not focus on no kill.

765

And again, through normal attrition, by

creating those programs, we'll get there.

766

I really believe that, but we have

to, we all have to work together and

767

focus on the access to care element.

768

Uh, and therefore, you know, that's

the, to me, that's the most important,

769

important part and the take home that

I have is like, figure out a way.

770

That we can promote spay and neuter

in our communities, promote, you know,

771

folks that make maybe can't afford

veterinary care and are in the process

772

of possibly losing an animal through

an investigation to find ways to get

773

them that, um, asset aspect of care.

774

DrG: Yeah, absolutely.

775

So for anybody out there that is

interested in learning more about

776

smart or becoming part of the

smart movement, what can they do?

777

Dan Ettinger: So probably

the biggest thing is to join.

778

The Facebook group, the smart shelter,

Facebook group, uh, reach out to me

779

through Daniel at keep it humane.

780

And if you want more information,

but the, at the end of the day,

781

all people really have to do is

just start using the terminology.

782

Um, they can, I can send

them a logo if they want it.

783

If they want to print out the smart

logo and use it at their shelter,

784

they're more than welcome to, um, you

know, it's, I have a different format.

785

So if they need it for certain

marketing things, uh, I could send it.

786

There's like, there's no cost.

787

We're not asking for anybody

to like pay anything.

788

We just want people to know that

they're supported and they don't

789

need arbitrary numbers to make them

feel like they're doing a good job.

790

DrG: And that's what I like about it.

791

It's, you know, it's, it's completely for.

792

For helping, right?

793

It's not for helping ourselves

is for helping others.

794

Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.

795

DrG: Awesome.

796

Well, well, thank you so much for

spending this time and for sharing

797

information and for getting me involved

in the SMART movement, because it's been

798

a fun ride and I'm looking forward to

where it's going to take us from here.

799

Dan Ettinger: You know, it's, uh,

it's not just about me being smart.

800

It's about surrounding

myself with smart people.

801

So I appreciate all your help.

802

It helps a lot.

803

DrG: Fantastic.

804

Well, everybody that's out

there, thank you for listening

805

and thank you for caring.

806

Dan Ettinger: Keep it humane!