Join us on Your Practice Mastered Podcast as we sit down with Jay and Kathryn Jump, owners of a successful bankruptcy law firm and founders of Certificate Of Service. In this episode, we discuss their journey from practicing law to building a scalable law firm, the challenges they faced during the pandemic, and the importance of gratitude and optimism in overcoming obstacles.

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Introduction and Welcoming Guests

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MPS: law firm owners. Welcome to the Your Practice Mastered podcast. We're your hosts on MPS?

Richard James: And I'm Richard James and hey Michael, today we're gonna have a great conversation with two people. I actually consider friends and we met in the bankruptcy world and they come from the bankruptcy world as owning a bankruptcy law firm, but then they transitioned over into a different brick and mortar kind of, but not brick and mortar.

I think that's the big lesson today, Michael. So I wanted to say welcome to Jay and Kathryn Jump. Welcome to the call

today.

Kathryn Jump: Thank you.

Jay Jump: Thank you so much, Mr. Richard I really appreciate it. Michael. Good to see you again.

MPS: Yes, absolutely. Good to see you both and really appreciate you guys spending some time with us on here.

Breaking the Ice: Fun Facts About the Guests

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MPS: One of the things we like to do, just to kick things off, is break the ice. So you guys can either do this individually or together, but what's one thing that maybe not everybody knows about you?

Jay Jump: Our lives are an open book for our clients. You go ahead, Kathryn.

So that was my, that was one thing I could share with you. That was my geeky.

Richard James: Alright, I would not have guessed diecast circus cars. There's lots of things I might have guessed, diecast circus cars were not one of, well, I, I remember when I saw you a couple times through the years, you, your friend she was in the background, I think, unfortunately, they passed away on you. Did you, get another puppy or

Kathryn Jump: We're we're hanging on, but I think we're living through the pictures of Michael's.

Richard James: Oh, got it. Yeah, Yeah. living vicariously through Michael here. Yeah. How about you, Jay? Anything you wanna reveal about yourself or does the diecast circus cars cover

it?

Jay Jump: I think that tops mind, but I don't know if our clients and staff know this, but I am an avid skier. I've always been an avid skier and my goal in life is to ski a hundred days a year. I have yet to get there, but I aspire. I.

MPS: Yes. Well, those are both very interesting facts, I appreciate that. I'll tell you, Jay. My goal would, personally, would be to avoid the ski slopes 'cause I feel like every time I end up on the ski slopes, I end up injured. So, I'm gonna fall into the golf bracket on this one.

The Journey in the Legal Space

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And we actually did accomplish that goal. And then we hit a rough patch and, decided that he wanted to go in other directions. So I kept on practicing bankruptcy. At that point, I I begged Kathryn to come work for me 'cause I saw what she was doing for her boss and making his business run.

And the judges in Seattle weren't about to pay me my hourly rate to stuff envelopes, nor would they let me charge my paralegals time to stuff envelopes. So we were eating that cost and it was just detrimental. Not so much the cost that we were eating, but the fact that we couldn't generate that revenue.

So we looked around for a solution, couldn't find it, and we said, Hey, if we have this problem, everybody else does too. And that's how we built our mailing company, CertificateOfService.com And we tried to do both for a while, but then COS just grew and grew and grew. Kathryn came to me at one point and said, you've gotta make a choice, practice law, or do COS.

Richard James: Congratulations on that success. I I love how you passed the bowl over, I don't know if she caught it, but Kathryn, I mean, he really gave you a lot of credit for being allowing this for this to happen.

The Importance of Having a Business Manager

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Richard James: Not suggesting in any way that the business wasn't working well without you, but it sounds like, you know, you came in and streamlined operations and understood systems and building processes and, you didn't have to be a lawyer at all. You, could just focus on fixing the business. Do you think that helped you be able to do that? Obviously you had some experience with it, but do you think the fact that you you just were able to focus on the business itself and not the law of the business, that it allowed you

to

do

Kathryn Jump: I

Richard James: help to

Kathryn Jump: think that's

So it was just,

Richard James: I.

Kathryn Jump: he always did, he couldn't imagine not doing those things. Once we switched that around and he saw that he had room to practice, he was able to completely up the revenue on his own just by applying more to the cases. And so, yeah, he was he was pretty wowed when he saw the bank balance.

Richard James: I bet he

was.

Richard James: Michael, do you hear a,

I I hear a secondary follow up question in here that I think could be beneficial to everybody. Are you okay if I ask it?

MPS: Please.

Richard James: Okay, so here's the question. We know who the avatar of the listener is, typically, they're a law firm owner and. and maybe everything's going fine, they're just learning how to get a little tidbit of how to get better.

But, oftentimes they're struggling with something, right? They're they're in chaos somewhere in their practice. Maybe they're listening to this at two o'clock in the morning, you know, after wondering how they were gonna make payroll tomorrow. And so now let's say they don't have Kathryn and they're not married to Kathryn and they're not gonna get to be married to your Kathryn, right?

So, those options are off the table, what do you tell them? They're so busy trying to be a lawyer and run the business. Like, what advice do you give them from your experience when they're faced with that challenge?

And the hardest thing about that, you always find that when you have a problem, usually what's standing in your way is yourself. The biggest problem with finding someone to do that for you is you having to say, I'll relinquish control of this aspect, and I'll place my faith in somebody else. And that's, the biggest thing you have to overcome.

Richard James: yeah. And when you're relinquished that control to your spouse, like I tell people who are married and work together, my wife and I we've been married for, 29 years together, 36 years and we've been working together forever. And so when I hear that from other people, I say, you know, congratulations, you're working together and my condolences right? Because it cuts both directions, right?

Kathryn Jump: Go ahead and pass it back to Michael. I think Jay did a great job there.

Richard James: Okay, good.

MPS: Yeah. No, and, Rich, I mean, I think we've seen this a lot through our time of working with different law firms at this combo of Attorney and non-attorney, whether it be a spouse, as a non-attorney, or just even a business manager as a non-attorney. It's a really powerful combo because the business manager is able to focus on the business growth and the attorney's able to focus on maximizing the law side of the practice, and it's been a really explosive combo for a lot of firm.

Richard James: If there's no wrong answer to this MPS, you can be an Attorney who really doesn't wanna practice law anymore, and what you really love is the business, and then you can hire associates to do the law and you could run the business and have assistants or people help you.

And so what we find is, I. they need Jay's advice, right? And Kathryn's advice, go find yourself a Kathryn who can run the business. And that's where we see them start to flourish. That, I mean, they, they could literally stop listening and just go do that. Like, that's a huge takeaway. But I I don't wanna stop listening here. Michael, keep going

Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Growth

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MPS: No, I know there's gonna be tons of action items and take away from this, podcast, Jay and Kathryn, I'm curious ,obviously life's not all sunshine and rainbows all the time. So, was there ever a, low point or a down point in this journey and what's something you took from that?

I think the biggest thing that I have found over the years is that when we are at our lowest, that is where we find where our strength is at. there's just been so many times where I've looked at Kathryn as she's looked at me and we've just said, yeah, this is awful, this is terrible, but the only way is through and so let's go grind and and push through it. And that has been. truly that's a life lesson that doesn't apply just to law, but to everything. To be able to have someone that you can push through all the worst problems with, and they're standing beside you. Yeah, that's, priceless.

Richard James: The only way is to push through. I love it.

Kathryn, how about you?

you

It was, we were exhausted by the time Jay said, okay, one more try. If we don't get it, we'll just leave it. And I said, okay, I'm in for one more try. And I don't know if it was something from above or inner strength in us. But lo and behold, I put the truck back into first and started pulling up the ramp, waiting to hear the snap or the crack or the stop.

MPS: Very well said. That's, That's,

great. yeah.

Richard James: great

MPS: a

Richard James: I mean there are so many people, just think about all the bankruptcy attorneys

and sadly I know the market's up, but there are some bankruptcy attorneys

who lost a lot of market share to those bankruptcy attorneys who

didn't turn

marketing off. And now that the market's up, they're not really experiencing the same up that the other guys or gals are experiencing

I'm, hearing

that out there.

So there's still a lot of BK attorneys that are still struggling, even though the market's coming back a little bit, but that time through covid was really dark. especially for

the, chapter 13.

And

they, need the ones who persevered, the ones who said, the only way out of this is through it. The only way out of this is

to, you know, double down and let's figure out a better way to do it. Those are the ones that really are thriving right now, that, doesn't mean that it's over for the ones who didn't, you know, that's okay, we can learn the lesson.

Now, the lesson learned is a lesson you just gave them. If you feel like you're in a tough time, whether you're a bankruptcy attorney or a family law attorney, or a criminal attorney, or any type of business owner that happens to be listening to this, just gotta, you just gotta realize that sometimes

you just,

gotta look one another in the eye or look yourself in the eye if you don't have another. If you don't have a Kathryn or a Jay and just say, okay, the only way outta this is through it.

Michael, how about you? Have you had, I don't know if you've, have you had that? wonder, I guess when you were building, when you took your one business and you tried to grow it into building websites, I suppose you had that

MPS: yeah.

But I can also agree with Kathryn and Jay by just choosing to stop and do nothing about it. You don't get through it., You just stay in it. In fact, it would only continue to get worse, so you've just gotta keep going. And so I think that's a very valuable lesson.

And Kathryn, one of the things you had also mentioned pre-show was during that Covid era and I thought this was something that's just very valuable to hear in general is, you had mentioned the importance of while the market was down, that meant all the more reason you guys had to dig in deeper and market more.

Talk about that a little bit. bit.

Maybe they're not the best solution today, but they're gonna be there and they're gonna be worthwhile. That was a lesson well learned and when I use that very same idea. it worked. Uh, it worked marvelously. I didn't see it right at the moment because how could I, but now our pipeline is so full from that, digging deeper, little more grit, little tougher working it out, going through it.

Richard James: Hey, Jay, talk a little bit, I heard Kathryn's upside and the, but I'm curious, I don't know which one of you pay attention to the numbers more. I'm not suggesting that you, I'm just gonna ask you on your opinion on this. Was there fear around investing more resources and time and money into growing your. your influence whilst less money was coming in. Theoretically, how did you get, and if there was, how did you overcome that fear?

Jay Jump: I don't think there was ever a fear of leading into the problem. I, I think at some point both of us sat down and said. well, 'cause literally we watched revenue drop off the cliff in the space of two weeks. We went from our best year ever to a terrible slash in business to the point where we were like, I don't know that we're going to be able to pay the bills next month.

And then we had plan B to collapse it down to a smaller size yet, and then a plan C to collapse it down again. And we never had to get to plan B or plan C, But taking a two-tiered approach to say how can we expand while being prepared to lessen our, I don't know how to say it 'cause we didn't ever wanna shut down, but we said, okay, here are the places we can slash and cut if we have to and still keep the doors open.

So it was two-pronged approach.

When you've got down to the very, very, very. Bottom part of the toothpaste, you'll put it on there. And if that, who would, uh, throw off the, uh, toothbrush onto the sink because the water hit it too hard, you'd literally go down there and scoop it off the bottom of the, of the bowl to use it to brush your teeth. Right?

I mean, so that's where you were, you know, all of us were or many of us were during that time. And so that's, a great analogy, you just figured out how to do more with less or the same. Right? And, so I love it. That's the, grit, that's the talked about as entrepreneurship is just figuring out how to go about doing that.

So, con congratulations for, for digging your way outta that storm. My MPS. Where do you wanna go from here?

You guys can go individually, Kathryn how about you? What are some of the things you guys or you do personally to continue the sustained success.

success

Kathryn Jump: At this point I can say, you know, every day I'm looking at the money, I'm looking at the income, I'm looking at the outgoing. I'm looking to see what the return on investment is for various projects, uh, that we do as well as marketing. You know, everything that we've invested in our people, our inventory, our uh, equipment, I look at it daily, I stay a step ahead on, Hey, is something gonna change in price? Do we need a, a second supplier, a second vendor? We have really just managed to, within the first, let's say, 20 minutes of the day, run through all those things and see where we're at, and then plan on where we wanna be.

Richard James: Is it safe to say it didn't always take you 20 minutes a day?

Richard James: Right, right. what I mean by that is, it sound, we make it sound like 20 minutes today, and I know that it is, and I know that it is for me too. But when you first get started into building these habits, it takes a while to build your framework of how you're gonna look at things and how you're gonna move through things. takes a little longer than beginning, but over time it. it's fair to say that you really can get a 30,000 foot view on these things within 15, 20 minutes a day, and you've got your finger on that pulse every

single

Kathryn Jump: And

that's the, that is the old adage of, you know, you need the right tools to do the job. I have the right tools. I'm very lucky that way.

Richard James: Nice.

MPS: terrific. I think that's a valuable habit. And just another demonstration of the importance of knowing your numbers, right? and, and the power that brings. Jay, what about you? What are some of the daily success habits that you have that lead to the continued success?

Jay Jump: Well, I think Kathryn just called me a tool and I'm kind of insulted.

Jay Jump: You know, the the two things that I've learned are that.

The Power of Gratitude and Optimism

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Jay Jump: One, I have to be optimistic, I have to be grateful. Because over the years I've gone from being a lawyer to being a CEO of this large company, and those require two different mindsets. I've really learned the difference between thinking like a lawyer and thinking like a business owner.

But Covid taught me to be grateful for what I have. And that makes me optimistic because every day you get up and I look at all these problems that I have to confront. 'cause that's what it, that's what we do as business owners. We solve problems, we search for inefficiencies and correct them. And if ever we sit there and think that, well, I've done it all, I'm successful.

And you know, I've gone from graduating law school to practicing a successful law career, to creating a side hustle that became this monster business. And I'm grateful for having been able to do all of that. I think about how far I have come, and then you turn around and look at the hill in front of you and you say, yeah, it's not that big a hill anymore and I can be optimistic.

But the two biggest things I've learned to keep me going uphill is to be grateful for what I've accomplished and to be optimistic about what I can accomplish. There are more problems to solve and I will get to them.

But gratitude, I will tell you the more I study successful content or happy individuals, they're the ones who practice gratitude, right? The being grateful for what they have. They have, they try their best to avoid the grasses greener on the other side.

If you spend any time at all, if you've trained your Instagram or TikTok or YouTube shorts or whatever to give you business improvement stuff at all, or Tony Robbins like stuff. You'll be inundated with people that make you feel or can if you let them make you feel very small about what you've accomplished because of the overwhelming bragging that they're doing about what they've accomplished, whether it be true or not true.

And so it's very easy to get dragged into, oh my gosh, look at what they are doing as compared to what I'm doing, the grass is greener, but that centering of having gratitude, Jay, that is such great advice.

Because we really want to practice this art of gratitude. cause what I've learned, I don't know about you. I, you know, I spent, as you, you guys remember, 12 years in the funeral business and I never saw a U-Haul behind the hearse, right? So I know you can't take it with you. And so, and I've now, I've, now that I've made a dollar or two, I realize that money's great and I like it, but it's not gonna bring happiness in and of itself.

You gotta find a way to bring inner happiness. And the only true path to that, that I have found is this gratitude secret. So I appreciate you saying that, we don't talk that about that a lot around here, and I will tell you, I find that to be a huge needle mover for the overall inner happiness of

people.

So thank You for

Kathryn Jump: You

Richard James: Oh,

nice.

Jay Jump: and, you know, I,

you had externalized what I had already, always known intrinsically, but hadn't really brought it to the fore. And it is important to practice gratitude because it's self-fulfilling.

it's, and when you start, being grateful for others and what they have accomplished, that giving of energy comes back on you tenfold. And I think that. once Kathryn I and I learned that secret. and once we believed in ourselves and certificate of service, we would take that to other businesses and say, this is how we can improve you, this is what we can do for you, we can make everything better and you can, you can improve.

Richard James: Yeah. Michael, this, uh, our time is flying quick here. I wanna be respectful of their time. Where do you want to go from here?

MPS: Time flies when you're having fun.

Looking Forward: What Excites the Guests

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MPS: What's got both of you guys fired up today? It could be personal. It could be business. Kathryn how about you? What's got you excited?

Kathryn Jump: I think what has been exciting. I'm excited about today. Excited today, is I can have a couple meetings later this morning with some really interesting and empowering people. And I look forward to their energy and, feeling that energy. That's always a great highlight for me when we can just have a discussion and just feel

that energy.

Richard James: great.

MPS: Love it. Yes,

I'm like, how, why did I get it all in one day? Like, how do I put it up bottles? I can put it on the shelf on that day that I need some more energy. I could just open it up and let it escape into the room.

MPS: Yep. No, that's very well put. well that's, great Kathryn, uh, getting on a call with energetic people is fun, right? It's just fun and it fuels you. So I think that's awesome.

Jay, what about you? What's got you fired up and excited?

Jay Jump: I'm gonna tell you about a blessing and a curse, and the curse comes first. I don't know if you can see this very well, I'm gonna shift my monitor a real bit. You see an unfinished door there in the corner, that's the entrance to my office.

but when it's done, we're gonna have new doors throughout the house, new trim, and a new fireplace, and that is going to be the blessing because this is the culmination of what we've been trying to get to for several years now.

We are redoing our house in the image that we want it to be. And when we get there, it's going to be the blessing, but for now, we must endure the curse, which also tells you that the only way is through.

We have to go through.

MPS: Like it.

And I will say this. I know we're all praying for a tsunami, but I have to say the way this has been ratcheting up is good, solid level of growth, and it's better than a tsunami because then we'd be quickly overwhelmed. This level of growth and uptick is going to allow us to expand and deal with it in a good way.

Richard James: Yeah, as a business owner, I'll take 20% year over year. Thank you very much.

We don't need a hundred percent I'll, 20% is wonderful. everybody can eat on 20% growth a year, it works for everybody. What a great conversation we've had today, MPS. I mean, this is,

that I want

MPS: Really was

Richard James: been flying.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Richard James: It's fun, it's really fun when we get to talk to business owners. We almost always get to talk to business people, but we don't always get to talk to business owners who were in law and now own a separate business. And so you see both sides of the coin and watching your growth over the last couple of years, guys have been a real joy to me, so thank you very much for being on today.

Jay Jump: Thank you very much. I really value our friendship guys. It's important to us.

us

Kathryn Jump: And I

know,

uh, if I didn't say earlier, you're one of the energetic calls that I have today that I look forward to because whenever I get off the call and I go get up outta my chair, I don't really think both feet are hitting the floor.

I might be floating just a little level above that And it's always great to feel that way.

MPS: Yes, Kathryn we appreciate that and to the law firm owners listening, we appreciate you. If this isn't your first time listening and you got some value from today, or you just enjoyed it, we kindly ask that you make sure you hit that subscribe or follow button depending on where you're listening or watching and show Kathryn and Jay some love down in the comments. Let us know if you've got any questions, hit that like button.

But thank you for taking the time to tune in today and listen to the Your Practice Master Podcasts and Kathryn and Jay. Thank you both again for investing your time today as well.

Richard James: Yeah. And by the way, Kathryn and Jay, real quick, if anybody wanted to learn more about certificate of service and they wanted to learn, discover more about you guys, where could they do that? Where's the best place for them to go?

Jay Jump: Just go to CertificateOfService.com. That's literally CertificateOfService.com, and there's a couple great explainer videos on there that demonstrate what we do and how we do it.

Richard James: Yeah, Amen to that. Good. Well, thanks again for being on. This has been a real pleasure, Michael. I think that's the pod.

MPS: That's the pod.

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