We've talked a lot about culture and how it impacts performance, morale and organisational reputational. If you've been a long-term listener you will have heard our own experiences of working in organisations with poor culture and toxic behaviours. But in this episode we want to tackle it head on and explore what can be done about overcoming toxicity in organisations.

We discuss:

• how we define toxic leadership
• what tips the balance between an organisation being dysfunctional versus toxic
• what organisational indicators might be telling you about the state of toxicity
• signs that toxic behaviours are at play in your organisation
• how to recognise if you're displaying toxic behaviours
• evidence, self-reflection, honest conversations that leaders need to have to understand the culture you're creating or perpetuating
• the top three challenges that need to be addressed to tackle toxic leadership
• calling out poor behaviours and creating the right conditions to role model for others
• the drain of good people leaving organisations - what can be done about it?
• how to deal with the personal toll of being on the receiving end of toxic leadership and the baggage that you can carry with you

Resources and helpful links

• Staying curious - How to Take the Lead S3, E10
• Leadership - is it all about power? How to Take the Lead S3, E9

About How to Take the Lead

How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every episode we explore a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

Get involved

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting.

If you want to watch this episode, subscribe to our YouTube channel to make sure you don't miss out.

And you can be a part of our Substack community, where you can get extra bonus goodies, network with a community of leaders and get direct access to us both.

We're also over on Instagram for more behind the scenes, news and views.

Plus if you want to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your organisation get in touch by dropping us an email howtotakethelead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:00

So that's where I want to take today's topic of

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conference. So

Lee Griffith: 00:00:05

Carrie-Ann Wade: a nice light hearted topic for the start of

Lee Griffith: 00:00:07

2024.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:08

Yeah, let's just get in there. Let's just get in there. Welcome

Lee Griffith: 00:00:14

to how to take the lead the podcast where we challenge the

Lee Griffith: 00:00:17

myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader today, and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:20

help you to succeed in post without compromise.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:23

I'm Lee Griffith, and I'm Carrie Anne Wade. And together we will

Lee Griffith: 00:00:26

be your guides question everything we've ever learned

Lee Griffith: 00:00:29

about leadership, sharing our experiences along the way, and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:32

inspiring you to make a real impact in your role visit

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how to take the lead.com For show notes past episodes and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:38

join our community

Lee Griffith: 00:00:39

enjoy this episode.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:49

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of how to take

Lee Griffith: 00:00:53

the lead. Happy New Year.

Unknown: 00:00:54

Happy New Year 2024. How has that happened already?

Unknown: 00:01:01

Where did 2023 go to by the way?

Unknown: 00:01:06

Carrie-Ann Wade: I have no no idea. I am I hope you had a

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restful festive period. I didn't find sparkles because but I

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bought bought the brightness for today,

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but the brightness for the new year. So let's hope that set a

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sign of what 2024 will be like for us all

Lee Griffith: 00:01:27

super primary. Kicking

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Carrie-Ann Wade: off with some normal housekeeping Hello to

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everyone who is watching us on YouTube. If you're not watching

Lee Griffith: 00:01:36

us on YouTube, you can watch us on YouTube. You can get all our

Lee Griffith: 00:01:41

links at how to take the lead.com that's where you can

Lee Griffith: 00:01:44

also listen to past episodes. And subscribe to our substack

Lee Griffith: 00:01:48

community where we do extra behind the scenes and additional

Lee Griffith: 00:01:54

prompts and things you could think about post an episode. And

Lee Griffith: 00:01:58

you can chat with other leaders. So head over to substack if you

Lee Griffith: 00:02:02

haven't already, and we're still on Instagram, not so much

Lee Griffith: 00:02:04

Twitter, ex whatever it's called we've we've decided to step away

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from that. And because actually Oh my god, this is the bridge, I

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didn't even realize what's going to happen. Because we felt it

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was a bit of a toxic toxic. We decided it didn't align with our

Lee Griffith: 00:02:20

values. So we stepped away. And that feels really apt for

Lee Griffith: 00:02:24

today's topic.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:25

It does I know is if we intended that to happen on purpose. And

Lee Griffith: 00:02:29

we absolutely didn't. But you're right. You're right. So yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:02:31

I'm

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I am. I don't know if I'm excited

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Carrie-Ann Wade: or if it's trepidation for today's topic.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:38

But it's something that we talk about a lot in bit parts on the

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podcast, but definitely a lot in other conversations and with

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other people. So yeah, let's see where today's topic of

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conversation takes us.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:51

Yeah,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: so we've we've talked a lot about culture in

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organizations, and the fact that it impacts performance, and

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morale and reputation. Good and bad, depending on the type

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culture. That's that's been nurtured in an organization. And

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we've also skirted around the topic of toxic, toxic

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leadership. In other episodes, we shared some of our stories,

Lee Griffith: 00:03:17

if you've been a longtime listener or viewer, you will

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have heard some of the stories that we've had in our own

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experiences in the workplace. But also, listeners have been in

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touch with us, and they've shared what's been happening in

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their organizations too. So we know that it is very much

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something that is a live and I should say, well, but it's not

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well is live and kicking issue in organizations. And I don't

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think we've ever really tackled the topic head on. And by that I

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mean, the we referenced the fact that there is toxic leadership,

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and but we've never done well, what do you do if that toxicity

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has started to set in and almost rot the the organization? So

Lee Griffith: 00:04:07

that's where I want to take today's topic of conversation,

Lee Griffith: 00:04:11

a nice, lighthearted topic for the start of 2024. Yeah, yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:04:16

let's just get in there. Let's just get in there. And I think

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it can be really easy for us to describe the symptoms of toxic

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leadership. And that's probably what we've when we've talked in

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the past. That's that's how we've probably approached it. I

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don't want to necessarily rehash all of that and just keep

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talking about the problem. Because we are all about action.

Lee Griffith: 00:04:38

And it definitely does feel like something that does need to be

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tackled in some industries in some sectors, certainly more so

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than in others. And I'm sure some of that might come out in

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today's conversation, but so that we all started in a similar

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place. Let's define what we mean by toxic leadership so that

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those that are listening or watching can understand maybe

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the lens that we're approaching the topic today. So Karianne,

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how do you see toxic

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leadership? Safe? For me, I

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Carrie-Ann Wade: think it's about leadership that has a

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negative effect on colleagues, maybe its stakeholders, the

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broader organization. And my experience of toxic leadership

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is that that negative effect is happening, and it's happening

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consistently. So it's not just a pocket or a blip, it's almost

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like that's the consistent way things happen around here. And I

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guess for me, I would liken it to be in in a bit of a

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dysfunctional relationship or in a dysfunctional family. And it's

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at its worst, I think, when it doesn't change, or you can't

Lee Griffith: 00:05:52

find a way out of it. So it just continues and continues. And

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like you talked about that, that kind of rot that sets in,

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there's kind of no way out. So you just accept that it's always

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going to be dysfunctional. And that almost becomes the norm.

Lee Griffith: 00:06:08

And that's okay. So that's kind of the way I would describe

Lee Griffith: 00:06:11

it, when there's something that you and this is a question that

Lee Griffith: 00:06:15

I've been pondering Eva, and there won't be a right or wrong

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answer. But when does something tip the balance from being just

Lee Griffith: 00:06:24

poor, or dysfunctional or challenging to actually be in

Lee Griffith: 00:06:28

toxic?

Lee Griffith: 00:06:30

I think for me, it's that level of consistency. But it's

Lee Griffith: 00:06:33

happening all the time that there is no positivity, there's

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no positive kind of energy output that all you are hearing

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is that consistent sense of people being unhappy, being

Lee Griffith: 00:06:47

fearful, not being sure about how things are progressing in

Lee Griffith: 00:06:53

your organization not having opportunity? So I think for me,

Lee Griffith: 00:06:57

it's about that kind

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of consistent level of

Lee Griffith: 00:07:03

Carrie-Ann Wade: all of those things that make up a toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:07:06

leadership or a toxic culture. So the poor behaviors people not

Lee Griffith: 00:07:09

right, you know, all the stuff, we've talked about people not

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feeling able to raise concerns,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:13

but that just being almost accepted

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Carrie-Ann Wade: as the norm, like, that's the way we do it

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here. And that that's okay. When actually there's that

Lee Griffith: 00:07:22

undercurrent of, maybe not everybody, because it's almost

Lee Griffith: 00:07:26

become the accepted norm. But some people kind of thinking,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:29

well, actually, I don't think that is okay. But there's no way

Lee Griffith: 00:07:32

now to challenge that. So either have to accept, that's how it is

Lee Griffith: 00:07:35

here and carry on as I am, or make maybe some more radical

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decisions about moving away from it. And I think that's the bit

Lee Griffith: 00:07:43

for me as well, that signals some level of toxicity, as such

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hardware to say I thought was gonna get it wrong, then, as in

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like, it's, it's those very polar opposite choices that

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people feel they've got to make, they either stay and put up with

Lee Griffith: 00:07:59

it, or they leave. And I feel like if it wasn't toxic, there

Lee Griffith: 00:08:04

would be a middle ground to be found and a compromise which

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would be about that ability to shift or change or meet

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challenge. Rather than going right, I just keep my head down

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and put up with it, or I'm part of being that in that toxic

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place, or I have to step away from it. So that's the bit for

Lee Griffith: 00:08:20

me, I think that signals how toxic somewhere really is

Lee Griffith: 00:08:24

because if it wasn't, if that toxicity wasn't there, there'd

Lee Griffith: 00:08:28

be a way to stay there and make some positive change and shift

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the dial. But if people feel like that's not possible, then

Lee Griffith: 00:08:35

that feels to me like that's a really strong signal that it's

Lee Griffith: 00:08:38

toxic. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:41

I suppose I would add to your, how you've defined it with, for

Lee Griffith: 00:08:48

me in the equation, there's something to do with the harm,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:52

the outcome is harm in some way. And whether that is personal

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harm, because of the toll of what's happening in your

Lee Griffith: 00:09:00

organization, or harm to reputation, whether it's to

Lee Griffith: 00:09:06

customers, whether it's actual harm in some way, because your

Lee Griffith: 00:09:10

processes have failed. So

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I think that's when

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Carrie-Ann Wade: true toxic organizations trip over into

Lee Griffith: 00:09:20

from being I suppose, just challenged or just dysfunctional

Lee Griffith: 00:09:24

is when that outcome, I think has some element of harm in it.

Lee Griffith: 00:09:28

Yeah, it's about that negative effect, isn't it that actually

Lee Griffith: 00:09:31

what's happening is there's something negative as a result

Lee Griffith: 00:09:34

of how the organization is being led or how it is operated?

Lee Griffith: 00:09:38

Definitely. For me, I think that is a good indicator that it's

Lee Griffith: 00:09:42

toxic.

Lee Griffith: 00:09:44

Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:09:44

Carrie-Ann Wade: we did a workshop recently, you and I,

Lee Griffith: 00:09:49

and it was in the health sector, and we were talking about toxic

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leadership with a group of health and care leaders. And one

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of the things we He asked them to do was to rate their current

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leadership and how well they thought their leadership teams

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did against certain.

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Criteria. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:10:12

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'll use that word probably isn't the right

Lee Griffith: 00:10:14

one. And we were asking them around things like, how

Lee Griffith: 00:10:19

trustworthy is the team? How transparent? Are they in their

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communications? How do they connect you to the bigger

Lee Griffith: 00:10:25

picture? How much do they bring vision to the organization's

Lee Griffith: 00:10:30

live their values aren't you don't live with integrity in the

Lee Griffith: 00:10:36

way that I deal with people? Inclusive safety to speak. So

Lee Griffith: 00:10:39

those were the kind of big themes that we were asking them

Lee Griffith: 00:10:42

to write one to five, five being outstanding, one being

Lee Griffith: 00:10:45

inadequate. Anyone in the health service will understand those.

Lee Griffith: 00:10:52

And, um, they,

Lee Griffith: 00:10:55

Carrie-Ann Wade: it was quite interesting when I went back

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recently, and I was looking at what people said, and there was

Lee Griffith: 00:11:00

a lot of middle of the ground. So so the average score didn't

Lee Griffith: 00:11:04

go above three for any of those things, which says something

Lee Griffith: 00:11:08

about the state of leadership perhaps in in the health sector

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at the moment. And obviously, with averages, you're going to

Lee Griffith: 00:11:17

get some people who think it's great in their organization, and

Lee Griffith: 00:11:20

you're going to have others that think it's quite poor, which is

Lee Griffith: 00:11:24

obviously why it brings brings down the score to the average

Lee Griffith: 00:11:27

score. But there was there are a couple that stood out to me were

Lee Griffith: 00:11:31

transparent communications, for example, was was one of the

Lee Griffith: 00:11:34

lowest rated connecting people to the bigger, bigger picture

Lee Griffith: 00:11:39

was quite lowly rated. And even living the values and

Lee Griffith: 00:11:45

inclusiveness didn't rate as highly as some of some of the

Lee Griffith: 00:11:48

other ones. And I suppose I'm not suggesting that those being

Lee Griffith: 00:11:54

low scores means that you've got a toxic leadership team. And I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:11:58

not suggesting that this is evidence that there is toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:12:03

practices at play in those organizations of those people

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that that participated. But some might say, particularly with

Lee Griffith: 00:12:12

some of those themes, that they're definitely not building

Lee Griffith: 00:12:16

the right positive, high performance culture in the

Lee Griffith: 00:12:19

organization if they're not hitting those things. And, and

Lee Griffith: 00:12:23

therefore, could be on the way to not necessarily building a

Lee Griffith: 00:12:29

healthy culture and possibly have some form of toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:12:33

leadership practices in

Lee Griffith: 00:12:35

place. What What are your views carry on?

Lee Griffith: 00:12:39

Carrie-Ann Wade: So I think for me, you're right. It's like,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:42

it's not like big rah, rah, it's toxic it but it could be a

Lee Griffith: 00:12:48

signal that some organizations or leadership teams might be

Lee Griffith: 00:12:51

heading that way. But some of the first things that I thought

Lee Griffith: 00:12:54

for those areas for organizations that scored low

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was, are leaders really listening to what's happening in

Lee Griffith: 00:13:03

their organization? And are they in touch with that? And are they

Lee Griffith: 00:13:08

seeking feedback about what matters and what's important,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:11

and then demonstrating that they're acting on that feedback

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that they're hearing. And there was a bit for me about are some

Lee Griffith: 00:13:19

of those organizations in that space where the leadership team

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is operating in its own bubble that isn't particularly

Lee Griffith: 00:13:26

connected to other parts of the organization? And does the

Lee Griffith: 00:13:30

leadership team and those organizations that have maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:13:33

had people score them much lower, have the right mechanisms

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in place to communicate with and engage with key stakeholders,

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whether that be the workforce or, or anything else really. And

Lee Griffith: 00:13:47

it might signify that those things are not in place, it

Lee Griffith: 00:13:50

might signify those things are not in place can consistently,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:54

it might be that some of these organizations happen to have

Lee Griffith: 00:13:57

newly formed leadership teams, for example, that are just

Lee Griffith: 00:14:00

finding their feet. So it doesn't mean those things won't

Lee Griffith: 00:14:03

happen into the future. But yeah, it just made me think

Lee Griffith: 00:14:07

there's there's obviously quite a lot at play in those

Lee Griffith: 00:14:09

organizations. And I think my experience, particularly in much

Lee Griffith: 00:14:13

bigger organizations, and we were in a healthcare setting, so

Lee Griffith: 00:14:17

many of the organizations that people were in problem are

Lee Griffith: 00:14:20

probably quite large, is that there's often pockets of really

Lee Griffith: 00:14:24

good stuff happening, but also pockets of really poor staff.

Lee Griffith: 00:14:28

And again, it's about that inconsistency. So if I think for

Lee Griffith: 00:14:32

example, about sort of visibility and transparency of

Lee Griffith: 00:14:35

communication, even in my own organization, do some of our

Lee Griffith: 00:14:40

leaders feel like tick, we're really visible, because every

Lee Griffith: 00:14:44

week we have an all Staff Webinar, where a number of our

Lee Griffith: 00:14:47

colleagues can join and speak to every person. He's an executive

Lee Griffith: 00:14:51

director in the organization, which sounds really great. But

Lee Griffith: 00:14:55

what about the staff who can't join because the time of that

Lee Griffith: 00:14:58

webinar doesn't see it? They're working Practice, would they be

Lee Griffith: 00:15:01

people that would say our leadership team is visible?

Lee Griffith: 00:15:04

Probably not, because we're not creating the opportunities for

Lee Griffith: 00:15:07

them to engage with and see them. So, you know, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:15:10

there's something about it's a struggle, isn't it one size

Lee Griffith: 00:15:14

won't fit all about trying to create all of those conditions

Lee Griffith: 00:15:18

and get really high scores against all of those criterias,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:21

we set criteria that we set in that meeting in that workshop.

Lee Griffith: 00:15:25

But we, I just feel like it's about the onus being leaders,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:28

Candy more, but I think maybe there's some leaders who are

Lee Griffith: 00:15:31

complacent. And like we've got a few things set up in our

Lee Griffith: 00:15:34

organization, we've ticked the box, we're doing all right,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:37

thanks without really, truly getting into the grit of it.

Lee Griffith: 00:15:41

So in the last series we talked about, we had an episode on

Lee Griffith: 00:15:47

power, and the different power dynamics that can be at play

Lee Griffith: 00:15:50

from a leadership perspective. And we talked about some leaders

Lee Griffith: 00:15:55

using coercive power to get what they want, say that threat of

Lee Griffith: 00:16:00

something bad will happen, if something doesn't take place, or

Lee Griffith: 00:16:05

an action doesn't happen, or whatever that is. And we know

Lee Griffith: 00:16:09

absolutely, that that type of leadership creates fear

Lee Griffith: 00:16:13

absolutely is toxic. And we know that when that happens, it does

Lee Griffith: 00:16:20

lead to people not speaking up, or they become Yes, people. And

Lee Griffith: 00:16:25

I suppose I want to explore how you recognize as a leader, if

Lee Griffith: 00:16:32

this type of behavior, I suppose is at play in your organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:16:38

So can I caveat my response to this with you have to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:16:43

leader who wants to recognize that? Yeah, I think there are

Lee Griffith: 00:16:47

lots of signs that you can pick up on, and some are quite

Lee Griffith: 00:16:51

practical operational things that might be happening in your

Lee Griffith: 00:16:54

organization, that would indicate perhaps, that there is

Lee Griffith: 00:16:58

that culture of fear. But if you are part of the leadership, who

Lee Griffith: 00:17:02

is perpetuating that culture of fear, you are either not going

Lee Griffith: 00:17:06

to want to address you might see it but not want to address it,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:10

because it doesn't suit your desire to lead with coercive

Lee Griffith: 00:17:13

power. Or you,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:17

you might just might not be able to recognize it because you're

Lee Griffith: 00:17:20

in that space, or you might not be open to it. So I guess my

Lee Griffith: 00:17:23

answer is coming from a place of as a leader who wants to get to

Lee Griffith: 00:17:28

grips with what's going on in their organization is going to

Lee Griffith: 00:17:31

be open to seeing some of this. So that's my caveat. But I think

Lee Griffith: 00:17:36

there are lots of signs within an organization that there is a

Lee Griffith: 00:17:40

fear culture, and some of it is about what you see happening

Lee Griffith: 00:17:43

practically. So you might see lots of micromanagement, for

Lee Griffith: 00:17:47

example, happening, lots of focus on people having to

Lee Griffith: 00:17:51

achieve daily tasks. Rather than that bigger picture creative

Lee Griffith: 00:17:56

thinking happening, you might only hear certain voices a lot

Lee Griffith: 00:18:01

in your organization, rather than a more kind of, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:18:07

different set of voices or more voices. In fact, at all, there

Lee Griffith: 00:18:11

might be a lot of language or action around blame. So blame

Lee Griffith: 00:18:15

might be something that is happening a lot in your

Lee Griffith: 00:18:17

organization, lots of focus on in that blame space, kind of the

Lee Griffith: 00:18:23

punishment or the consequence of doing something badly. And a

Lee Griffith: 00:18:27

focus more on dealing with what might be perceived to be poor

Lee Griffith: 00:18:31

performance, rather than looking at how you're creating

Lee Griffith: 00:18:34

opportunities for things to improve, and for people to

Lee Griffith: 00:18:37

thrive. And in that space around people thriving, there's

Lee Griffith: 00:18:41

probably a lack of development opportunities in your

Lee Griffith: 00:18:45

organization, potentially high turnover, poor retention,

Lee Griffith: 00:18:50

difficulty recruiting to roles, and particularly difficulty

Lee Griffith: 00:18:54

promoting people internally, because perhaps you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:18:57

creating those opportunities for people to grow and develop. So I

Lee Griffith: 00:19:01

think there are actually lots of signals all over the place in

Lee Griffith: 00:19:04

your organization, that there is that culture of fear happening.

Lee Griffith: 00:19:10

But I guess as a leader, it's about how open you are to see in

Lee Griffith: 00:19:14

recognizing that seeing that and then dealing with it. So there's

Lee Griffith: 00:19:17

some really good

Lee Griffith: 00:19:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: signals, warning signs, I think, for you

Lee Griffith: 00:19:22

to look out in in your organization. And I don't really

Lee Griffith: 00:19:26

think there's there's more I can add to that. Obviously, there.

Lee Griffith: 00:19:30

There'll be practical things if you're doing staff surveys and

Lee Griffith: 00:19:33

things like that you should get a temperature check of how

Lee Griffith: 00:19:37

people are feeling that might give you an opportunity to probe

Lee Griffith: 00:19:41

a little more deeply in areas where there perhaps are those

Lee Griffith: 00:19:44

types of challenges.

Lee Griffith: 00:19:46

And I suppose to go a bit further, how do you

Lee Griffith: 00:19:53

recognize

Lee Griffith: 00:19:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: if you're the person that might be

Lee Griffith: 00:19:56

contributing to a toxic leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:19:59

unwittingly A perhaps? Yeah, that's a

Lee Griffith: 00:20:02

Carrie-Ann Wade: good question, isn't it? Because for me, I

Lee Griffith: 00:20:04

guess it goes back to that point about wanting to like being open

Lee Griffith: 00:20:11

to having that recognition and that level of insight,

Lee Griffith: 00:20:14

because I was about to say, because you might

Lee Griffith: 00:20:19

Carrie-Ann Wade: be picking up on signals from other people

Lee Griffith: 00:20:21

that's feeding that back to you. But quite possibly you won't be

Lee Griffith: 00:20:24

because people won't be in a position where they feel like

Lee Griffith: 00:20:26

they can address that with you. Because you are giving off those

Lee Griffith: 00:20:30

vibes of, you know, not being open to having that feedback, I

Lee Griffith: 00:20:34

guess. I mean, there would be something for me about, you

Lee Griffith: 00:20:39

know, staff, survey, 360, anything like that, where you

Lee Griffith: 00:20:42

are getting feedback from people in your organization, probably

Lee Griffith: 00:20:46

in a more anonymous way that might signal that actually, part

Lee Griffith: 00:20:50

of it is about you and your role and the role that you're playing

Lee Griffith: 00:20:54

in that culture. But I think unless there are people who are

Lee Griffith: 00:20:59

going to be willing to have some of those frank conversations

Lee Griffith: 00:21:02

with you, and perhaps there might be in your own leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:21:04

team. That might be a bit a bit of a challenge, I guess. And you

Lee Griffith: 00:21:10

might pick that up if you're having coaching or mentoring in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:14

any way that that might come through in terms of what gets

Lee Griffith: 00:21:17

explored in those spaces. But I guess it would be dependent on

Lee Griffith: 00:21:21

whether you're a leader who is doing that self development and

Lee Griffith: 00:21:25

self growth. And my guess my worry is often the leaders that

Lee Griffith: 00:21:29

are contributing quite heavily to that toxic culture and the

Lee Griffith: 00:21:33

leaders who are not necessarily that open to or interested in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:37

doing some of that. So you post a really tricky question for me,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:40

then, because I'm not really sure I know what the answer is

Lee Griffith: 00:21:42

so bit cheap to know if you've got any thoughts in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:45

that space? Well,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:47

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's an inch because what as I, as I was

Lee Griffith: 00:21:50

pondering it myself there, I can always sit there. So I came from

Lee Griffith: 00:21:55

it from from the point of view that actually at times in my

Lee Griffith: 00:21:59

career, I definitely micromanage people, and was probably a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:22:04

unrealistic with timescales that I set, because I've said this

Lee Griffith: 00:22:08

before I was judging it against what I thought I could do, or

Lee Griffith: 00:22:11

what I did at that level, or not recognizing that everyone around

Lee Griffith: 00:22:15

me was different to me, for example.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:19

And so, you

Lee Griffith: 00:22:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: know, we've all been in situations where perhaps

Lee Griffith: 00:22:23

we're not thinking as long term as we need to wish quite short

Lee Griffith: 00:22:27

term. We're quite reactive. And, and so then, then your mind

Lee Griffith: 00:22:31

goes, oh, gosh, was I a toxic leader? No, I don't think I was,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:37

but maybe there were times when I was creating that sense. So

Lee Griffith: 00:22:40

there's, there's always that sense of probably the wrong

Lee Griffith: 00:22:43

people. And I'm not saying that I am a wrong person. But other

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

people might be listening to this and feeling super sensitive

Lee Griffith: 00:22:50

about the type of culture that they're trying to create. And

Lee Griffith: 00:22:54

I've heard some of these symptoms and warning signs and

Lee Griffith: 00:22:57

have gone. I do that. And so yeah, it boils down to, I

Lee Griffith: 00:23:07

suppose, the level in which you can have honest conversations

Lee Griffith: 00:23:13

with people around you. And you do it in a way that isn't you're

Lee Griffith: 00:23:18

not sensitive to what you hear? Yes, if you recognize that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:22

you're being reactive to it, even if it's like an overly, oh,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:26

my god, I can't believe I'm doing this or becoming too

Lee Griffith: 00:23:30

defensive, whatever it might be, then that's probably a sign you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:34

need to do some form of work, even if it you know, toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:23:39

behaviors isn't at the root of what you're doing. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:42

I think that I think that is a good point isn't there you, you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:45

will know how you react to potentially getting some of that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:48

feedback or having some of that, that type of conversation. And

Lee Griffith: 00:23:51

if that reaction feels a bit over the top in some way, or it

Lee Griffith: 00:23:55

feels a bit triggering, then you're right, I think that's a

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

signal that maybe you need to take a step back and breathe and

Lee Griffith: 00:24:01

reflect and try to understand what's happening for you in

Lee Griffith: 00:24:04

terms of the behaviors you're exhibiting in the workplace,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:07

which, as you say, might not be fully toxic, or they might not

Lee Griffith: 00:24:11

be that you might not have done something with the intent for it

Lee Griffith: 00:24:14

to learn that way. But being open to hearing the impact, and

Lee Griffith: 00:24:18

it's back to right to what we said at the start, what impact

Lee Griffith: 00:24:20

has your behavior as a leader had on your colleagues in the

Lee Griffith: 00:24:24

organization or on the broader organization? And if that's been

Lee Griffith: 00:24:27

negative, you know, a sign a sign that that is unintentional

Lee Griffith: 00:24:32

is that once you come to that realization, the thing you want

Lee Griffith: 00:24:36

to do is find a way to resolve it and fix it rather than just

Lee Griffith: 00:24:40

accept that well, okay, that's,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:43

that's how it is. Hmm. One of the things that I was reflecting

Lee Griffith: 00:24:50

on this she was talking with we've we've had these

Lee Griffith: 00:24:53

conversations before, and have both worked with leaders who You

Lee Griffith: 00:25:01

almost take on that victim, who are toxic leaders, absolutely no

Lee Griffith: 00:25:05

doubt about it, but they take on a victim mentality in the way

Lee Griffith: 00:25:10

that they are treated and behave in the organization, and they

Lee Griffith: 00:25:13

don't see what they're creating or perpetuating and all of that

Lee Griffith: 00:25:17

kind of stuff. So I there is something for me about the self

Lee Griffith: 00:25:24

work you need to do as a leader to understand, am I being

Lee Griffith: 00:25:30

defensive? Because this is just uncomfortable? What where's the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:34

evidence? I suppose it goes back to that conversation that we've

Lee Griffith: 00:25:36

we've had enough episodes around, like, where's the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:38

evidence that I'm being treated poorly, or that I'm treating

Lee Griffith: 00:25:44

others poorly. And I think that being able to see that through a

Lee Griffith: 00:25:49

more independent lens, as you say, working with a coach or

Lee Griffith: 00:25:52

something would be really helpful.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:54

Yeah, and I do agree with that. Because as you say, we've both

Lee Griffith: 00:25:58

operated in that space ourselves. And we've probably

Lee Griffith: 00:26:01

seen examples of it in other places where, you know, and we

Lee Griffith: 00:26:05

have said this before, being a leader is hard. So we're not

Lee Griffith: 00:26:08

trying to suggest that there won't be times when as a leader,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:11

you might feel like everything's against you, or people have got

Lee Griffith: 00:26:16

no negative a negative view of you. But I guess the trick to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:19

being a good leader in my eyes is being able to take that on

Lee Griffith: 00:26:24

board and have the level of insight around, okay, so what

Lee Griffith: 00:26:28

can I do to make this just to make a change, or to influence a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:33

different outcome here. And it's really hard sometimes, isn't it

Lee Griffith: 00:26:36

not to take it personally and feel like you're being attacked,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:40

but there's something then again, also about what coping

Lee Griffith: 00:26:42

mechanisms you've put in place for yourself as a leader, to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:46

deal with some of that, which you can maybe do privately in a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:50

different space, rather than reacting straight back to the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:53

situation that has happened, say somebody has given you some

Lee Griffith: 00:26:56

difficult feedback that might be hard to hear. It's your role as

Lee Griffith: 00:27:00

a leader to hear that. And to process that, and to have a

Lee Griffith: 00:27:04

grown up and sensible conversation about okay, what

Lee Griffith: 00:27:07

might we need to do to progress things in a more positive way?

Lee Griffith: 00:27:11

Even if inside you feel like, Oh, God, like, you know, I feel

Lee Griffith: 00:27:15

really terrible, or that's really hurt me. You know, I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:20

think it's about having that ability in that level of

Lee Griffith: 00:27:22

maturity as a leader to kind of separate what what you need to

Lee Griffith: 00:27:26

do as a leader to progress a situation or resolve a scenario,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:31

versus what you might need to do as a leader in a different

Lee Griffith: 00:27:34

space, maybe not so openly, to just deal with how that has

Lee Griffith: 00:27:38

impacted you individually. And I know we might come on to talk a

Lee Griffith: 00:27:42

bit more about that sort of stuff later.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:44

Just moving on a little bit, when we ran the workshop that I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:48

alluded to earlier, in the episode, we asked them to name

Lee Griffith: 00:27:53

what they thought the top three challenges were that had to be

Lee Griffith: 00:27:57

addressed in order to stop or kind of reduced toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:28:01

leadership. And what was interesting with the top three

Lee Griffith: 00:28:04

things that came out were psychological safety, poor

Lee Griffith: 00:28:08

leadership, role modeling, and the ability to break down

Lee Griffith: 00:28:12

hierarchy. I'm interested in your reflections on those as the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:17

top three, and I suppose what you think will make the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:22

difference about these?

Lee Griffith: 00:28:25

And I don't think any

Lee Griffith: 00:28:26

Carrie-Ann Wade: of them were a surprise to me if I'm honest.

Lee Griffith: 00:28:31

And I think I think the tricky thing is that the answer to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:34

fixing them is doing the things that they've said. So the answer

Lee Griffith: 00:28:40

to creating are so opposite. Yeah, exactly. I couldn't I

Lee Griffith: 00:28:44

couldn't work out the way to explain what I was trying to say

Lee Griffith: 00:28:47

them. But for example, you know, the role modeling thing? Well,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:49

the one of the ways to help that is better, more positive role

Lee Griffith: 00:28:53

modeling. But actually, it's like, how do you make that

Lee Griffith: 00:28:56

happen? And again, I think it all ties back to that level of

Lee Griffith: 00:29:00

desire in an organization for the leadership team to truly

Lee Griffith: 00:29:03

listen, truly engage and truly take action on the things that

Lee Griffith: 00:29:07

they are hearing to make a difference in that space. I

Lee Griffith: 00:29:10

guess the bit that probably, it made me think about and why

Lee Griffith: 00:29:15

potentially it might not have been a surprise to me is, is

Lee Griffith: 00:29:19

that point I made about sometimes leadership teams

Lee Griffith: 00:29:21

operating in a bubble that isn't particularly well connected to

Lee Griffith: 00:29:25

the wider organization? Because I think my experience having

Lee Griffith: 00:29:30

observed some of the types of organizations that we were

Lee Griffith: 00:29:33

working with in that room, and being part of some of those

Lee Griffith: 00:29:37

myself, throughout my career has definitely been at times the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:41

leadership team thinks those particularly those things were

Lee Griffith: 00:29:45

role modeling really good practice. We're creating a

Lee Griffith: 00:29:48

really psychologically safe environment. You know, we're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:51

operating in a way where we don't believe in the hierarchy

Lee Griffith: 00:29:54

and we're making it really easy for everybody. Like, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:29:58

it's quite easy for leadership teams to think they're doing all

Lee Griffith: 00:30:02

of those three things and tick the boxes. And in reality,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:05

what's happening on the ground is quite different. So that bit

Lee Griffith: 00:30:08

for me is back to maybe what you were saying in response to the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:12

previous topic that we were talking about just now is

Lee Griffith: 00:30:15

around. Where's that evidence? How are you triangulating that

Lee Griffith: 00:30:19

if you as a leadership team think that you are operating in

Lee Griffith: 00:30:22

a psychologically safe organization and you're creating

Lee Griffith: 00:30:26

that environment? How are you testing that out to really make

Lee Griffith: 00:30:29

sure that when you're putting that tick in that box as a

Lee Griffith: 00:30:32

leadership team, that that is genuine? So for me, it's that

Lee Griffith: 00:30:36

triangulation of sort of data experience and outcomes, and

Lee Griffith: 00:30:40

being more open to asking questions about those things to

Lee Griffith: 00:30:44

work out what people's experiences are really like.

Lee Griffith: 00:30:48

Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:48

Carrie-Ann Wade: test test and test again. And don't it's not

Lee Griffith: 00:30:52

don't trust the answers, but don't always take the first

Lee Griffith: 00:30:56

answer as the true answer. I think,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:58

yeah, it's like being curious, isn't it? Let's dig a bit more

Lee Griffith: 00:31:01

deeply into that. And we've talked about this. In other

Lee Griffith: 00:31:03

episodes, we're actually sometimes even when you're

Lee Griffith: 00:31:06

testing and you're assuring yourself as a leadership team,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:10

you're taking everything on face value. So and actually, data and

Lee Griffith: 00:31:15

feedback can be represented in lots of different ways to suit

Lee Griffith: 00:31:19

to suit people's desired desired outcome context. So it gets

Lee Griffith: 00:31:23

Yeah, I do agree, I think it is that testing.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:26

Well, that's a whole other conversation about actually how

Lee Griffith: 00:31:29

often organizations really reassuring, rather than a

Lee Griffith: 00:31:33

showroom? Yeah. We can't open that kind of, not today. So one

Lee Griffith: 00:31:40

thing I find really interesting is that we often say that you

Lee Griffith: 00:31:45

need to call out poor behavior when you see it. And we've said

Lee Griffith: 00:31:47

it, we've said it on this. We've talked, we talked about it

Lee Griffith: 00:31:50

personally. But you know, it's so much easier said than done,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:56

isn't it? Especially if you're in a position where there is no

Lee Griffith: 00:31:59

psychological safety? Or you don't see others calling out?

Lee Griffith: 00:32:05

How do you as leaders start to create the right conditions or

Lee Griffith: 00:32:09

even start role modeling, I suppose, in a way that feels

Lee Griffith: 00:32:14

safe, and, and yeah, shows others that it's okay to be

Lee Griffith: 00:32:19

calling out those poor behaviors.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:21

So some of it, I guess, as a leader is about doing just that.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:24

So when you are in a space where something is happening, that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:27

doesn't align with the values of your organization, or the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:31

behaviors you would expect of people that you kindly and

Lee Griffith: 00:32:34

compassionately and diplomatically, do address that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:38

in the space. And I've had examples within my career where

Lee Griffith: 00:32:42

I've had people who've worked in my team going, oh, you know, I

Lee Griffith: 00:32:45

was in a meeting, and this happened. And it's really upset

Lee Griffith: 00:32:48

a and afterwards, the chair of the meeting was like, Oh, that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:51

person shouldn't have spoken to in that way. And then those

Lee Griffith: 00:32:54

people have questions to me, like, but, but that was the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:58

chair of the meeting sent it to me. So why didn't they if they

Lee Griffith: 00:33:01

saw in that space, and they usually it's often been about

Lee Griffith: 00:33:05

hierarchical seniority, if they've seen it in that space,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:09

and they're chairing the meeting, and they're more senior

Lee Griffith: 00:33:11

than I am. And they can see that the way that person spoken to me

Lee Griffith: 00:33:15

hasn't been in line with our values. Why haven't they said,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:19

like, can we just take a break for a moment, because I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:33:21

think the way that you're communicating is really very

Lee Griffith: 00:33:24

effective, for example, and I don't think that happens, I

Lee Griffith: 00:33:28

don't often feel like people are brave enough, even as more

Lee Griffith: 00:33:32

senior people in the room or the chairs of conversations or

Lee Griffith: 00:33:35

meetings, to sometimes D that and they often think that just

Lee Griffith: 00:33:39

recognizing it with the person afterwards is enough. And in

Lee Griffith: 00:33:42

fact, I think that makes it worse, does after the event go,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:45

Oh, God, that person was really rude to you in that meeting

Lee Griffith: 00:33:47

went, then that's just not acceptable. But obviously, it

Lee Griffith: 00:33:50

is. Because it's just happened. So I do think and have a role as

Lee Griffith: 00:33:55

a leader to try and do that. And in a compassionate way that is

Lee Griffith: 00:33:58

in line with your own values and the values of your organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:02

I have seen some organizations do some basic type things like

Lee Griffith: 00:34:08

adding elements as a like substantive item on agendas for

Lee Griffith: 00:34:12

meetings, where they actually ask people to reflect on how

Lee Griffith: 00:34:16

they felt that meeting went and share that into the space. And

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

sometimes that lands really badly. But over time, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:34:23

people get used to that being the way that we operate here. So

Lee Griffith: 00:34:26

actually, I am going to reflect back in and and say that so I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:32

think there are things you can do in that space. But it's hard

Lee Griffith: 00:34:35

because people have to feel comfortable responding to that.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:39

Yeah. And I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:41

Carrie-Ann Wade: was going to jump in and say I've been in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:43

similar situations where we've had similar initiatives set up

Lee Griffith: 00:34:47

from for meetings, but it becomes almost an ego stroking

Lee Griffith: 00:34:52

competition for the chair because they're only really

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

interested in what went well. Yeah, yeah. Like don't like the

Lee Griffith: 00:35:00

criticism of when things don't go well. And so if you've not

Lee Griffith: 00:35:05

created the right conditions, when you're asking that type of

Lee Griffith: 00:35:09

question, or if you're doing it for artificial purposes, and

Lee Griffith: 00:35:14

you're not genuinely wanting to learn and develop and change

Lee Griffith: 00:35:17

practice,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:18

then

Lee Griffith: 00:35:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: I take those extra bit of a pinch of salt in

Lee Griffith: 00:35:23

some ways.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:24

And I think you've hit the nail on the head a bit with the

Lee Griffith: 00:35:26

learning point as well, isn't it? It's like, how does an

Lee Griffith: 00:35:28

organization and their leadership team are you showing

Lee Griffith: 00:35:31

your that learning organization? So are you constantly sharing

Lee Griffith: 00:35:35

examples where individuals or teams in your organization have

Lee Griffith: 00:35:39

made an improvement or reflected on something and done that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:43

learning? Because that's all part of creating those

Lee Griffith: 00:35:45

conditions? Isn't it being open to sharing that asking the right

Lee Griffith: 00:35:49

sort of questions, you know, so there's definitely something for

Lee Griffith: 00:35:53

me about about that kind of learning environment that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:35:57

trying to create as an organization that then makes it

Lee Griffith: 00:36:01

easier, I guess, to call out some of that poor behavior.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:04

There's something for me about kind of what relationships are

Lee Griffith: 00:36:07

being created between staff and whether, as an organization, you

Lee Griffith: 00:36:12

have space for staff to be in networks, or groups or develop

Lee Griffith: 00:36:18

those relationships where they support each other. Because I

Lee Griffith: 00:36:21

also think there's an element of being able to talk about poor

Lee Griffith: 00:36:28

behaviors, and what might be done about them without always

Lee Griffith: 00:36:31

having the most senior people in that space. Because that can

Lee Griffith: 00:36:34

often be what creates some of that fear. So are there

Lee Griffith: 00:36:38

opportunities for people to talk with their peers about what

Lee Griffith: 00:36:41

their experiences are like, and how they then might want to go

Lee Griffith: 00:36:45

on and raise concerns or challenge in the organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:49

And I've had quite a recent example of that, where there's

Lee Griffith: 00:36:51

been a group of, of new staff into the organization and a very

Lee Griffith: 00:36:55

senior person, say, Oh, well, I know, they're having a really

Lee Griffith: 00:36:58

great experience, because they only share good things in the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:00

WhatsApp group that I'm in and I'm like, but you're, like the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:03

most senior version of them in this organization. So they're

Lee Griffith: 00:37:08

only probably going to share good stuff in that space,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:10

because you're in it. If you weren't in that space, the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:12

conversation might be quite different. Say there's something

Lee Griffith: 00:37:16

like in your off behind your back. Yeah, but there's

Lee Griffith: 00:37:18

something for me in that that, like, actually, you just got to

Lee Griffith: 00:37:20

be really conscious of all these different things as a, as a

Lee Griffith: 00:37:23

leader, and how you maybe start to develop some of these

Lee Griffith: 00:37:27

relationships and opportunities. You know, maybe even with groups

Lee Griffith: 00:37:30

like unions, or people that represent big groups of your

Lee Griffith: 00:37:33

colleagues, how are you being open and transparent with them

Lee Griffith: 00:37:37

and trying to create a dialogue with them, that feels like it is

Lee Griffith: 00:37:40

two way rather than people just sharing things. And the last

Lee Griffith: 00:37:44

point I wanted to make was, I think, often, if you are already

Lee Griffith: 00:37:48

in a space, where there is a bit of fear and, and a bit of

Lee Griffith: 00:37:51

toxicity in your environment, some of the opportunities you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:55

need to create for people to call things out might have to be

Lee Griffith: 00:37:58

anonymous in some way. Because sometimes people feel better

Lee Griffith: 00:38:02

able to do it. If you know, if you're already in a space where

Lee Griffith: 00:38:05

it feels like there's blame in your organization, you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:38:08

gonna often want to be the person that has their name

Lee Griffith: 00:38:10

attached to raising an issue. So actually, are there routes for

Lee Griffith: 00:38:13

people to do that in a more anonymous way that might make

Lee Griffith: 00:38:17

them feel safer, but I do, I do think it's really hard because

Lee Griffith: 00:38:20

I've been there like, I've sometimes, even as a leader are

Lee Griffith: 00:38:24

able to go, oh, this really doesn't sit right with me. And

Lee Griffith: 00:38:27

I've desperately feel the desire to challenge it. So I'm going to

Lee Griffith: 00:38:31

do it regardless. To other times when I felt like, I really want

Lee Griffith: 00:38:36

to challenge Yes, but I don't feel like it's gonna be safe for

Lee Griffith: 00:38:38

me to do that. Because there will be a consequence that I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:38:41

not in a position, or the right headspace to want to handle so

Lee Griffith: 00:38:45

actually, I'm gonna let it go. And that feels really

Lee Griffith: 00:38:47

uncomfortable as well, because then that sits with you for a

Lee Griffith: 00:38:49

long time. So if as a senior leader, you don't always feel

Lee Griffith: 00:38:53

able to call it out, you can't expect that people in other

Lee Griffith: 00:38:56

parts of your organization are going to feel comfortable doing

Lee Griffith: 00:38:59

that.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

No,

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: no. And I think that that definitely goes back

Lee Griffith: 00:39:03

to that point around self awareness and knowing how you

Lee Griffith: 00:39:07

can best manage yourself, and and recognizing what will be in

Lee Griffith: 00:39:13

your control and what will be out of your control and how much

Lee Griffith: 00:39:15

you're willing to accept that or said so that it doesn't eat away

Lee Griffith: 00:39:20

at you, as you've just said. And sometimes it's about recognizing

Lee Griffith: 00:39:24

when you need to step away from a physician. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:39:26

certainly where I got to in one one place. It was like, like,

Lee Griffith: 00:39:30

I'm ready. I'm ready to go now because I've done what I can do.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:35

And I've been in senior leadership positions and have

Lee Griffith: 00:39:39

also had this challenge and this push and pull between wanting to

Lee Griffith: 00:39:42

act and not feeling safe to do so. But sometimes, you're you're

Lee Griffith: 00:39:50

a leader and you might be recognizing it in people who are

Lee Griffith: 00:39:52

your peers or who are junior to you and then you've got a

Lee Griffith: 00:39:56

different level of responsibility in the way that

Lee Griffith: 00:39:58

you need to act and role model, you will need to have that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:04

difficult conversation that is evidence base so that it doesn't

Lee Griffith: 00:40:07

go and get personal and all of that kind of stuff. You might

Lee Griffith: 00:40:11

need to get someone in externally to support you

Lee Griffith: 00:40:15

whether it's some form of moderation, whether you invest

Lee Griffith: 00:40:18

in a coach or a mentor for that individual to help them kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:40:22

get to grips with some of the areas that they need to develop

Lee Griffith: 00:40:26

in. And also, as a leader, sometimes you need to recognize

Lee Griffith: 00:40:30

when you might need to exit someone out of an organization,

Lee Griffith: 00:40:33

because they're just not creating the right environment

Lee Griffith: 00:40:36

for those around and for the greater good. Having tried lots

Lee Griffith: 00:40:41

of other avenues to kind of resolve the issues. Sometimes

Lee Griffith: 00:40:47

it's better to say, Thanks, but no thanks, isn't it. And

Lee Griffith: 00:40:51

that's a bit that's key for me there. And what you've said is

Lee Griffith: 00:40:55

that you've explored every other option to try to support that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:58

person to develop, to grow, to create the right conditions,

Lee Griffith: 00:41:04

within the wider context to be able to operate at the level at

Lee Griffith: 00:41:08

which you need them to operate in terms of, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:41:11

psychological safety, team dynamic and all of that stuff.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:14

And I think if you genuinely have got to the point where

Lee Griffith: 00:41:17

you've tried everything, then sometimes sadly, that is the

Lee Griffith: 00:41:20

only option. And and I think there's sometimes a sense that

Lee Griffith: 00:41:25

that's not creating the right culture, in an organization by

Lee Griffith: 00:41:29

actually supporting people to exit. But for me, I feel like

Lee Griffith: 00:41:33

that is a really compassionate thing to do. Because if you have

Lee Griffith: 00:41:37

been through every other route, to try to create something

Lee Griffith: 00:41:40

different, and that fit is just not there, and it's not working

Lee Griffith: 00:41:44

it I feel like you are having a bigger impact by trying to keep

Lee Griffith: 00:41:49

that person there, just because that feels kinda or less

Lee Griffith: 00:41:53

challenging to do. And my experience in that space, on a

Lee Griffith: 00:41:58

number of occasions has been It is amazing how much impact one

Lee Griffith: 00:42:02

person who maybe isn't aligned with the values of your team or

Lee Griffith: 00:42:07

organization or perhaps isn't the right fit for whatever

Lee Griffith: 00:42:11

reason, or the organization isn't the right fit for them?

Lee Griffith: 00:42:14

And how much of a negative impact that one person can have

Lee Griffith: 00:42:17

on the bigger picture is absolutely astounding. So not

Lee Griffith: 00:42:21

addressing that, even though that feels like a challenge. Not

Lee Griffith: 00:42:24

calling that out, not like trying to find a solution to

Lee Griffith: 00:42:28

that is much more problematic than just letting that play out.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:31

I feel. Yeah, yeah. Because it

Lee Griffith: 00:42:34

creates all kinds of simmering resentments and tensions that

Lee Griffith: 00:42:38

that will impact every other aspect of your interaction with

Lee Griffith: 00:42:41

the rest of your team. If they don't, they will lose respect

Lee Griffith: 00:42:44

for you if you don't tackle some of those things.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:48

And one of the

Lee Griffith: 00:42:49

Carrie-Ann Wade: frustrations, and it is a huge frustration.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:53

We've discussed this privately many times, we possibly have

Lee Griffith: 00:42:59

discussed it on the on the podcast, but it's that thing of

Lee Griffith: 00:43:03

the bullies, the really poor leaders often seem seemingly go

Lee Griffith: 00:43:09

longer and harder in their resolution to carry on as they

Lee Griffith: 00:43:15

are doing. And then what happens is the good people leave because

Lee Griffith: 00:43:20

of all the things you spoke about before it's you know, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:43:22

not right for them to for their mental health or well being or

Lee Griffith: 00:43:25

for whatever reason they decide they need to step out in the

Lee Griffith: 00:43:28

situation because it's not being tackled in any other way. How do

Lee Griffith: 00:43:32

we stop the drain of good people leaving organizations? Because

Lee Griffith: 00:43:36

it's that tipping point issue again, isn't it? And

Lee Griffith: 00:43:38

we'd Yeah, we definitely have talked about this a lot

Lee Griffith: 00:43:41

privately. But I think we have talked about this a couple of

Lee Griffith: 00:43:44

times on on the podcast as well. Aren't you know what, Lee? If I

Lee Griffith: 00:43:48

had the answer to this question, I feel like, well, it's not even

Lee Griffith: 00:43:52

about being a millionaire. I think we just have quite a lot

Lee Griffith: 00:43:54

of happier people working all around us in different

Lee Griffith: 00:43:57

organizations. Because I think the key bit for me, is, I feel

Lee Griffith: 00:44:03

like probably the reason why most of those what we perceive

Lee Griffith: 00:44:07

to be good people leave and stop challenging the bullies, and

Lee Griffith: 00:44:12

stop wanting to work in organizations where those

Lee Griffith: 00:44:15

bullies are going look, and harder. Is that personal toll

Lee Griffith: 00:44:19

that it takes because I feel like you can be a person you can

Lee Griffith: 00:44:23

be a leader, whatever that, you know, really does want to

Lee Griffith: 00:44:27

challenge that poor behavior, that toxic culture that really

Lee Griffith: 00:44:31

wants to like go hard at it and make that positive change for

Lee Griffith: 00:44:35

your organization. But if all you consistently come up against

Lee Griffith: 00:44:40

is resistance and attack and challenge back to you and being

Lee Griffith: 00:44:45

treated a certain way because you've had to be that person

Lee Griffith: 00:44:49

potentially that challenges that bullying, culture that toxicity.

Lee Griffith: 00:44:54

There's only so long that you can keep going before you're

Lee Griffith: 00:44:57

just like this is just exhausting. I'm like, It's too

Lee Griffith: 00:45:01

exhausting. I don't feel like I or my smart maybe. Because often

Lee Griffith: 00:45:06

what I found is there are probably a small cohort of

Lee Griffith: 00:45:09

people that feel the same way that do want to do that

Lee Griffith: 00:45:12

challenge or never in isolation. Actually, you are right, my

Lee Griffith: 00:45:16

experience has definitely been that. But these people just feel

Lee Griffith: 00:45:19

exhausted. So as much as you've maybe created a bit of a support

Lee Griffith: 00:45:24

network for yourselves of people who feel the same way and want

Lee Griffith: 00:45:27

to try and shift the dial and see some positive change in your

Lee Griffith: 00:45:31

organization. If that dial doesn't shift, even just a tiny

Lee Griffith: 00:45:36

bit, you get to the point where you go, I can't have an

Lee Griffith: 00:45:39

influence here in the way that I want to. And actually, what's

Lee Griffith: 00:45:42

happening to me is I just feel exhausted, I've run out of

Lee Griffith: 00:45:45

energy, it's mentally draining for my own personal good, I need

Lee Griffith: 00:45:51

to take myself out of this situation. And that's, yeah, if

Lee Griffith: 00:45:55

any of us could find the answer to that conundrum, I think we

Lee Griffith: 00:45:58

would be operating in such a different space when it comes to

Lee Griffith: 00:46:03

toxic culture and leadership. Absolutely. So I don't I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:46:06

have the answer to that question. Other than in my head,

Lee Griffith: 00:46:08

I started thinking to myself, maybe an action, because we're

Lee Griffith: 00:46:12

definitely wanting to be about action is creating some sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:46:16

support networks for these good leaders, these leaders who are

Lee Griffith: 00:46:19

in that space, who feel like they're consistently pushing

Lee Griffith: 00:46:23

against the tide of the bullies, or the toxic behavior to come

Lee Griffith: 00:46:26

together, and somehow at least, seek some sort of support and

Lee Griffith: 00:46:31

realize that they're not the only ones in that space. But

Lee Griffith: 00:46:33

other than that, I was at a total loss.

Lee Griffith: 00:46:35

Lee, if I'm honest, is

Lee Griffith: 00:46:38

Carrie-Ann Wade: hard. And I suppose we need to recognize,

Lee Griffith: 00:46:41

and I'm just gonna say it, yeah, the health service is one where

Lee Griffith: 00:46:44

we seen time and time again, the wrong types of leaders being

Lee Griffith: 00:46:48

rewarded and promoted into, you know, get moved on from an

Lee Griffith: 00:46:52

organization because they are challenging, but the reward is

Lee Griffith: 00:46:56

they've moved on to a better or bigger job. And therefore, they

Lee Griffith: 00:46:59

then set in and become part of the infrastructure in the

Lee Griffith: 00:47:03

institution. And the and then the role modeling begins, and

Lee Griffith: 00:47:07

so,

Lee Griffith: 00:47:08

so and continue. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:47:11

And is that a

Lee Griffith: 00:47:13

Carrie-Ann Wade: political thing? You know, does it does it

Lee Griffith: 00:47:15

stem from the very center? And the ramifications of the way

Lee Griffith: 00:47:20

that behaves in the field? The trickle down effect? I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:47:23

know, is it? Do we need to have a clearer swipe of some of the

Lee Griffith: 00:47:29

infrastructure around how we govern some of these

Lee Griffith: 00:47:32

organizations? Maybe? But I do, yeah, there needs to be more

Lee Griffith: 00:47:38

people calling out and I recognize it that is hard, hard

Lee Griffith: 00:47:43

to do.

Lee Griffith: 00:47:44

And I think that's interesting, isn't it, that you said about

Lee Griffith: 00:47:46

how you know, the governance and how we kind of regulate maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:47:49

some of this from a leadership point of view, because whatever

Lee Griffith: 00:47:53

sector you're in, whether it's healthcare, or any another, a

Lee Griffith: 00:47:57

lot of the regulatory activity that happens, is done by people

Lee Griffith: 00:48:03

who are in the sector already. So there's a lot of self review

Lee Griffith: 00:48:09

or self reflection, or, you know, you see this a lot in

Lee Griffith: 00:48:12

local government where they ask another local authority to come

Lee Griffith: 00:48:17

in and do a review of what's happening. But it's almost like,

Lee Griffith: 00:48:20

well, how independent is that if you're in the same sector, where

Lee Griffith: 00:48:23

maybe this culture exists across organizations, rather than just

Lee Griffith: 00:48:28

in one particular organization? So there is something for me

Lee Griffith: 00:48:31

maybe there about that level of independence in terms of kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:48:35

reviewing how organizations are operating. And I absolutely get

Lee Griffith: 00:48:39

that people like, well, I want it to be by people who

Lee Griffith: 00:48:41

understand what my sector provides. But actually, from a

Lee Griffith: 00:48:44

leadership point of view, I don't think it needs to be that

Lee Griffith: 00:48:48

like, it doesn't matter if you're running, you know, BP, an

Lee Griffith: 00:48:53

NHS organization or local authority, a political party,

Lee Griffith: 00:48:58

you know, an IT company, there are some principles of really

Lee Griffith: 00:49:01

good leadership and creating really positive cultures that

Lee Griffith: 00:49:04

will be the same regardless of what sector you work in. So

Lee Griffith: 00:49:08

actually, maybe there's some level of needing some sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:49:10

independent regulatory review of leadership rather than review of

Lee Griffith: 00:49:16

your sector. I don't know. It's something that came to mind when

Lee Griffith: 00:49:19

you were talking about it. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:49:22

I mean, there have been talks about having some kind of I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:49:29

talking specifically about the NHS after some of the issues and

Lee Griffith: 00:49:33

scandals that have hit this year not having some independent

Lee Griffith: 00:49:36

regulation of of NHS managers for example, but he's

Lee Griffith: 00:49:40

drawing up yet the center Yeah. Made up of

Lee Griffith: 00:49:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: not not not wholly I would say that's my

Lee Griffith: 00:49:48

disclaimer. You know, there are good people in every

Lee Griffith: 00:49:50

organization, but there are definitely a few that reputation

Lee Griffith: 00:49:55

Lee are well known for, for not perhaps living the values that

Lee Griffith: 00:49:58

we would expect to have have

Lee Griffith: 00:50:00

Forward Thinking leaders anyway, they're a

Lee Griffith: 00:50:03

soapbox moment.

Lee Griffith: 00:50:08

Carrie-Ann Wade: Say don't have to finish, I'm also really

Lee Griffith: 00:50:12

mindful of the personal toll of dealing with toxic leadership.

Lee Griffith: 00:50:18

And we've touched on this a little bit already firsthand, I,

Lee Griffith: 00:50:23

I've definitely had situations in my career where I've been

Lee Griffith: 00:50:26

triggered because of how a former leader has acted in

Lee Griffith: 00:50:31

certain situations. And then I sit in a similar situation with

Lee Griffith: 00:50:36

a different leader expecting the same outcome and almost that

Lee Griffith: 00:50:39

fear you, you think you're back in that space, and you respond,

Lee Griffith: 00:50:43

and you realize, actually, there's a lot of baggage that

Lee Griffith: 00:50:45

you carry around with you, if you've been in a situation where

Lee Griffith: 00:50:50

you've had, you've encountered that toxic workplace. And often

Lee Griffith: 00:50:57

we focus on the needs of an organization to heal. And we

Lee Griffith: 00:51:01

will look at Fractured development, and how do we, you

Lee Griffith: 00:51:05

know, review and develop a different culture for an

Lee Griffith: 00:51:08

organization where the leadership perhaps is not been

Lee Griffith: 00:51:11

great. But I don't often hear people talk about that

Lee Griffith: 00:51:15

individual impact, and those that have perhaps been up close

Lee Griffith: 00:51:20

and personal with the staff, and that they've got things they

Lee Griffith: 00:51:24

need to work through to so I suppose my question is around,

Lee Griffith: 00:51:28

how do you start to recover? I'm not asking that person on that

Lee Griffith: 00:51:33

journey. But this isn't a therapy session. But I suppose

Lee Griffith: 00:51:38

for people listening who may be like, actually, yeah, I do feel

Lee Griffith: 00:51:40

triggered sometimes in certain situations, and I hadn't quite

Lee Griffith: 00:51:43

put two and two together. I think coach and

Lee Griffith: 00:51:45

a mentor infamy is key to this as an individual find in a safe

Lee Griffith: 00:51:49

spaces to have the conversations that you might need to have

Lee Griffith: 00:51:53

sometimes to uncover some of this because it might be similar

Lee Griffith: 00:51:56

in a way, and you might, as you say, might not quite put the two

Lee Griffith: 00:51:59

and two together, yet to kind of work out what's going on for

Lee Griffith: 00:52:03

you. So I definitely think there's something there for me

Lee Griffith: 00:52:05

about having those safe spaces to have conversations and seek

Lee Griffith: 00:52:09

the support and gain the clarity you might need about what's

Lee Griffith: 00:52:13

happening for you, and then work through what you might be able

Lee Griffith: 00:52:17

to do to stop that things triggering you once you've

Lee Griffith: 00:52:20

worked out what those triggers might be. And I will always go

Lee Griffith: 00:52:23

back to what we talked about in loads of different episodes of

Lee Griffith: 00:52:26

this podcast around your own support network, like have you

Lee Griffith: 00:52:29

got your trusted support network around you that can help you to

Lee Griffith: 00:52:33

work through some of this, if you need to say they that. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:52:37

that would be my initial response to how you start to

Lee Griffith: 00:52:41

work through that recovery as an individual. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:52:45

I agree with both those points, I think there's the need, there

Lee Griffith: 00:52:49

was always part of the realisation was that the issue

Lee Griffith: 00:52:53

was never mine. It was always that other person's it's it was

Lee Griffith: 00:52:56

their problem, it was that it was how they behaved, there was

Lee Griffith: 00:52:59

something underlying in them that created that situation, or

Lee Griffith: 00:53:03

that whatever and I so learning that what's in your control,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:07

it's out of your control what all of that was, was really,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:10

really helpful. And I think the other thing I found useful, was

Lee Griffith: 00:53:15

being able to so agree, you need your support network. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:53:19

perhaps where you do more of the offloading. And the the more

Lee Griffith: 00:53:24

frank discussions, but actually having open discussions with

Lee Griffith: 00:53:28

people. So for example, when I felt triggered by something that

Lee Griffith: 00:53:32

someone had done, which was completely not, then it was my

Lee Griffith: 00:53:35

baggage from a past experience, just saying to that person,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:39

Look, I'm sorry, I reacted in that way, or I'm sorry, you

Lee Griffith: 00:53:42

know, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable or a bit tense

Lee Griffith: 00:53:44

about this, but I just want to explain the context. You don't

Lee Griffith: 00:53:48

need to give them the life story. They might not, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:50

that might not be the space. But for them understanding why it

Lee Griffith: 00:53:54

might be uncomfortable to you, I think just helps create that

Lee Griffith: 00:53:57

sense of, they build that trust and connection with that, that

Lee Griffith: 00:54:01

new leader and actually can help you to recognize and appreciate

Lee Griffith: 00:54:07

what the other leader might be offering to you.

Lee Griffith: 00:54:09

Now I think that's a really good tip, isn't it to that, right,

Lee Griffith: 00:54:12

explaining? The reason why you might react a certain way

Lee Griffith: 00:54:16

because you have been triggered is really important. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:54:19

not just a work thing, is it that's a life thing. And we

Lee Griffith: 00:54:22

probably find that easier to do in personal circumstances with

Lee Griffith: 00:54:26

partners or friends or relatives to kind of go oh, God, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:54:29

sorry, I reacted this way to that, because this has happened

Lee Griffith: 00:54:33

to me before but I'm not really sure we've ever created a

Lee Griffith: 00:54:37

workplace culture where it feels like that's important to do, but

Lee Griffith: 00:54:40

it really is because it's all about people, isn't it and

Lee Griffith: 00:54:43

building relationships with people and that really that's no

Lee Griffith: 00:54:45

different, whatever setting you're in, so I feel like that's

Lee Griffith: 00:54:48

really good advice. Really. I might start to do that more

Lee Griffith: 00:54:50

myself. Thanks.

Lee Griffith: 00:54:54

You don't like feeling really triggered? Well, Anyway, we have

Lee Griffith: 00:55:05

been talking for much longer than we should have. But it just

Lee Griffith: 00:55:09

goes to show that there is, um, we could talk for hours on this

Lee Griffith: 00:55:14

topic. And I'm sure it's one that we're gonna come back to it

Lee Griffith: 00:55:17

time and time again because I do know it's a real life issue for

Lee Griffith: 00:55:21

many people in organizations nowadays. So thank you, Karianne

Lee Griffith: 00:55:26

for your contribution. As always, thank

Lee Griffith: 00:55:30

you for creating a safe space for us to have this conversation

Lee Griffith: 00:55:34

only.

Lee Griffith: 00:55:35

I try. And until next week. Thanks for listening. Don't

Lee Griffith: 00:55:46

forget to hit follow to make sure you get the next episode.

Lee Griffith: 00:55:49

And if today's discussion resonated, please leave a review

Lee Griffith: 00:55:51

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Lee Griffith: 00:55:53

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Lee Griffith: 00:55:56

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:00

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:02

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:05

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:07

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:11

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:15

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:15

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